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solomon levi
08-05-2009, 06:13 PM
I've had something on my mind lately.
I generally don't hold on to things - I notice them, observe them, let them pass...
and then start afresh with beginner's mind.
But something has caught my attention, causing me to alter my course.
I don't believe in secrets really - not that I wouldn't keep one if you asked me too.
I do/must believe in agreements.
But to me, knowledge does not belong to one and is meant to be given.
But then it can't really be given to a mind that has not matured to accept it.
And that happens through work.

So I had intended to divulge whatever I find, not as truth, but as yet one more possibility.
But I have seen in life, my own and others, that only through personal effort,
dreaming, attention, contemplation and action, does one find their heart's desire.

I'm using too many words...
in short - taller, older, more experienced trees can often deprive younger trees
of much needed sunlight that allows growth.
This happens too if one just gives another the answer/solution - you wouldn't do
your child's homework for them... they wouldn't learn anything that way.

So basically, if my posts are not as open and sharing as they have been in the past,
it isn't that I'm withholding secret knowledge, or that I believe in elite groups or any ego stuff like that.
It's just that there's alot of new people and some "old" people who I wouldn't want
to deprive or deny the pleasure of working for oneself and finding for oneself.
When it happens that way, we don't have to worry about whether one is worthy
or not or whether mature enough or deserving... work gives one the proper state of
gratitude, wisdom, proper use and respect, etc.

solomon

rockfate1111
08-05-2009, 09:17 PM
I think your right on here. I find many people want to rob themselves of the journy of life. They beg for someone to just hand them a fish instead of asking simeone to teach them how to fish. Right on!

Joy
08-06-2009, 06:35 AM
Solomon levi,

Sure, I understand what you mean, we have to find the answers ourselves, this is
what I have done most of my live. Very helful were symbol hints.

When I will open up here a topic, it will be about something I work on, or try to
understand, if anyone has to say anything about it,.. great, if not ... also ok, cause
mostly when I write it down, some morning dew falls on me and gives an idea, where
to search.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts ... Joy:)

Salazius
08-06-2009, 08:19 AM
You're right indeed Solomon (and other),

Things are more fun when we seek and find by ourselves. Alchemy must be fun. It is also very personal. Too much guidance and then, you lost your track.

It 's a great joy to find a new way, a new method that give results. But for that we also need to know things, and masters, friends of Art, books are good for the basics (and further sometime), once you got the theory, you can walk your way more independently.

Seth-Ra
08-06-2009, 09:23 AM
I too am in agreement with this. It reminded me of the post i made about "my" emblem, and i said i wouldnt pretend to own anything, especially knowledge (nature tells all), i put what i can out there, because it works for me, and if one doesnt understand, then they must grow (as i try to word it as best and simplest way i know how). I personally have had several "lightbulb" moments in the Art, and just the feeling of it "clicking"... if someone had of just told me, it would have ruined it.

The trick is to listen to nature, and your intuition/subconscious self, when the time is right, you will not only know, you will also understand, and it is that understanding that is the gold of the journey. :D

solomon levi
12-05-2009, 05:35 PM
I know that some people feel strongly about keeping the secrets of alchemy.
I'm not one of them - maybe I'll change my mind as I learn more.
But I am a person of integrity, so if you share something with me, I'll
keep it secret if you like.

That said, I think I know where the tradition of secrecy came from, and
I don't consider it respectable. I'll explain:

The earliest alchemists have told us that alchemy was first brought to us
by the gods or angels. They also tell us that it was in exchange for sex with
our women whom they found beautiful. You can see these relationships in
biblical writings and the book of Enoch; even Zosimos passes down this
knowledge of alchemy's origin.
In the Codex Marcianus (11th century), one of the earliest alchemical
manuscripts extant, "Isis the Prophetess to her son Horus", Isis tells Horus
that while he was away fighting Set, she was in Hermopolis studying angel
magick and alchemy when she was noticed by a lusty angel. But the angel
could not answer her questions about alchemy, but he bargained to bring
a higher angel who would answer her. He returns the next day with Amnael,
who also finds Isis desireable and agrees to barter alchemical knowledge
for sex. He reveals to her the mystery of his sign/sigil and then makes her
swear the great oath never to reveal these secrets to anyone but her son.

So if we accept these origins of alchemy, it is clear that the secrecy is to keep
humans from becoming gods/god-like (as in the bible) and also to keep them
from knowing the angels names and signs which would make them vulnerable
to a priestesses or magus' control.

Granted, there are other reasons to keep alchemical secrets, some moral,
some for protection, some to prevent abuse... but the obvious origin of this
secrecy comes from beings, the majority of which are not amiable towards
humans, but are rather intent on keeping us in the dark and in control/slavery.
They are the Gnostic archons, if you will. And as Gnostics, we would defy
their restricting oaths. :p

What do you think?

Joy
12-05-2009, 07:00 PM
Solomon Levi,

Secrets in Alchemy .... one big reason to keep the mouth closed is, whenever you
tell a person, whats going on, may be in the "Inner Alchemy" or Magic, without
taking drugs ... others would think ... you are insane ... cause they only know their
simple reality.

The next thing ... lab alchemy ... the secrets of a group, sharing till a result is there,
which makes people famous or rich.

The third part is even more interesting ... its about the people, which write books about
Alchemy and Magic ... they collect informations from others bound in secrecy and
suddenly they pop out everything in their books, just put in another piece of cloth,
so nobody can blame them.

If we want realy to know and learn, all we need is to follow the deep burning flame
inside and it will open all the doors. .... Joy:)

LeoRetilus
12-05-2009, 08:22 PM
Interesting Solomon, one of the ultimate goals in the Golden Dawn tradition is The Knowledge and Conversation of Your Holy Guardian Angel, now most know of Aliester Crowley as a stark raving mad gay drug addict , but at one point he claimed to have contacted his, whom he also believed to one of the Secret Chiefs, he sketched its appearance, it was an Alien Gray! This was long before the first aliens or ufos were sighted. Could it be that they are not very Holy at all and that their purpose is to control humanity through our subconscience and that alchemy is a way to liberate ourselves, a gift perhaps to those who have found favor. Or could it be that there is war in the heavens between good and evil entites vying for the control of mans soul. It is said King Solomon could summon entities and even Belial himself and make him dance before him. If we look at the Greater Key (Clavicula Salomonis) we see a multiple series of sigils ruled by each planet, most contain the names of certain groups of angels who preside over that which we desire to accomplish, once they are shown these sigils they must oblige, could it be that they are compelled to do so because we know their names. Socrates also believed he made contact with his "higher" self and called it a daemon, an excellent aphorism can be seen in , "The Golden Compass", could it be that man is meant to be the master?

Agni
12-05-2009, 08:43 PM
I treat it the same way as you, Solomon. If I do have a discussion with someone about alchemy, if someone is sharing with me, and if this person doesn't want me do talk about it with other people, I do respect it totally, and I won't talk. I also would like the other person not to talk about this or that, if I think it behaves better to the situation or the subject we're talking about.

But i do personally think that there is one thing we should not forget: Alchemy, and maybe also cause of it's secrecy seems to make quite a big difference in times of massculture, where even the philosophical and spirtitual teachings are just part of a big commercial marketing strategy (Of course this also has some good sides, it's really easy to get a book, or whatever you need for working ect).


Solomon Levi wrote "Granted, there are other reasons to keep alchemical secrets, some moral,
some for protection, some to prevent abuse... but the obvious origin of this
secrecy comes from beings, the majority of which are not amiable towards
humans, but are rather intent on keeping us in the dark and in control/slavery.
They are the Gnostic archons, if you will. And as Gnostics, we would defy
their restricting oaths"

I'm not sure about that, actually ... maybe in som cases.
As you've also said: for protection for example - alchemy, cause of it's secrecy and symbols is quite inscrutable ... If you tell someone bout certain processes it can be really dangerous, if this person doesn't know how to handle it, so ...
And yes, the moral aspect (although i' not a big friend of morals ... laughing) ... I think if someone is just in it for making gold, or just longing for power, ect. , he can bring himself into quite big troubles ... i can't explain this aspect any further, it just seems to be like that.


Agni

Zephyr
12-05-2009, 08:55 PM
now most know of Aliester Crowley as a stark raving mad gay drug addict

Mr. C does deserve some criticism, but that's a bit of an uncharitable description, no? And I think he had several wives.

*Z*

Hephćlios
12-05-2009, 09:43 PM
Honestly it depends on what you think you have found- and if in fact it is worth secreting away. The tale you relayed about Isis is (to me) far more indicative of the alchemical process then anything the metaphorical angels parleyed...especially seeing as they came from the firmament of heaven.


She relates that "after a certain passing of the kairoi and the necessary movement of the heavenly sphere, it happened that one of the angels who dwelt in the first firmament saw me from above. . ." The angel, a being of the lower realm between the earth and the moon, is enflamed by passion, but can't answer her questions about alchemy.


Sendivogius - The New Chemical Light: But because this most pure fire now occupies the firmament, and surrounds the throne of God, the waters have been condensed into a body beneath it; and thus the sky is formed, while the water which now forms the atmospheric air and the lower firmament is due to the action of a lower and grosser fire.

Excepting a small portion pertaining to the particulars of archemy - I've seen nothing worth keeping secret... and even those few things are meager accomplishments at that.

solomon levi
12-05-2009, 09:52 PM
Hi Joy.
Yeah, I think the best reason for secrecy is simply keeping the 'flask'
hermetically sealed until the desired result is achieved. That is, talking
about a thing, especially before it has occurred, can disperse the energy.
But for the greater part, I don't believe people protect alchemy; I think
it protects itself - true alchemy is directly tied in to one's consciousness,
so abundance, for example, cannot be had by a greedy personality (greed
being a product of lack, not enough...) I know it's not that way in the social
conscious world, but I think it is in alchemy where we are dealing with the
quantum realm and not so much mass to mass.
We've all heard of scandals against alchemists, ike the guy that starting
making and selling Starkey's pills, or the same thing happened to Glauber.
But you never hear of people stealing the Philosophers' stone or selling it,
because I don't think it can happen. Hudson tried to mass produce it and
sell it to people and his facilities had a major acid spill and were shut down.
There are angels associated with these higher products and they will
not allow them to be abused.
The Essene is a very generous soul - he would give the gold ormus to almost
anyone. But when the angel did not approve, he would be unable to make it.
(After taking the white gold for a time, the Essene could see the angel and
communicate with it. Hudson mentioned the same thing about the man
who was his 'guinea pig'.)
I mean really, humans could not have protected alchemy for this long.
There must be something supernatural to it.

I'm not saying that if I made the red lion today, I would tell everybody
tomorrow - I wouldn't. It's just the smaller things, the beginnings...
setting people on a good path. ;)



Leo,
Yes. You're feeling me. That's exactly what I suspect.


Hey Agni,
I guess I accept the mass consciousness/internet, etc, as a sign of the times.
Things must be going that way for a reason... with the creators' blessing,
never against it.
Leo mentioned Aleister Crowley... well, another similar personality - possible
genius, possible megalomaniac - Carlos Castaneda claimed that he was the
last of his lineage and it was now spirit's will that Toltec sorcery come out
into the open... thus writing the books, Tensegrity, etc... Maybe it's the
same with alchemy. Maybe there is a dawning of a new age where these
things can happen in mass. I think that's what's happening and that the old
rules may not be applicable anymore. If they are, then they'll sustain. I
don't think it's any one person's responsibility.

I'm not a believer in morality myself. ;)



My whole point isn't that we should or shouldn't keep secrets... if anyone
has personal reasons that's cool. I just question tradition and am sharing
knowledge of the history involved here. And maybe inciting a little Gnostic
rebelliousness. :D

solomon levi
12-05-2009, 10:01 PM
Wow, posts are coming in fast.
I'll stop replying to everyone and let it flow.
Thanks for all your responses.

Hephaelios - don't think I've seen you around for a while. Glad you're back.
(Forgive me if you've been here and I didn't notice.)


Mr. C went both ways. :D

LeoRetilus
12-05-2009, 10:42 PM
Mr. C does deserve some criticism, but that's a bit of an uncharitable description, no? And I think he had several wives.

*Z*

What I meant to say is that is how he is known to popular culture. I for one can seperate the person from his works and I respect his works. I guess you could say the same about a guy like Michael Jackson, deeply troubled and misunderstood, but we can seperate his accomplishments from the man and admire him for his work.
Maybe Mr. C. opened some portals that could not be closed or maybe he prefered they remain open.
Many temptations will abound a man with great potential and great knowledge but the strong and upright will persevere.

Awani
12-06-2009, 03:38 AM
And as Gnostics, we would defy
their restricting oaths.

Indeed, and this topic has popped up a few times in different guises (some of them):


how much sharing? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=910)

Is alchemy too personal? (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=102)

The Open Source Movement and the Esoteric (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1073)


Perhaps Alchemists are coming out of the closet i.e. the great debate... it can't be nothing but healthy in my opinion!

The origins are a combination of keeping people enslaved, but also from fear of being killed... the Church in the old days didn't like boiling kettles that much!


So if we accept these origins of alchemy, it is clear that the secrecy is to keep humans from becoming gods/god-like (as in the bible) and also to keep them from knowing the angels names and signs which would make them vulnerable to a priestesses or magus' control?

Well that is from where we get the Greater and Lesser Mysteries, or if you will the Above or Below (in a sense)... sometimes secrecy is a tool to teach one thing at a time. You got to crawl before you can walk, but I agree people have taken stuff like that literarily causing centuries of unnecessary ignorance.

:cool:

Ghislain
12-06-2009, 03:56 AM
Perhaps the process of alchemy is similar to a bird hatching from its shell
or a larva pupating to adult hatching from its cocoon. If you try to help you
could damage the fragile new life and hinder the one thing that is going to
prepare it to cope in its future.

You could therefore consider a forum like this as an incubator :)

Ghislain

solomon levi
12-06-2009, 04:07 AM
The origins are a combination of keeping people enslaved, but also from fear of being killed... the Church in the old days didn't like boiling kettles that much!


Yeah, and today we need to fear persecution by government and
pharmaceutical industries (same thing: industrial-pharmaceutical-government...)
perhaps that's the best reason for secrecy.
Although that would be more like showing discretion than secrecy/
oath taking.

solomon levi
12-06-2009, 04:11 AM
You could therefore consider a forum like this as an incubator :)

Ghislain

:D Nice!

ManO
12-06-2009, 08:13 AM
I have had cause to think about the legitamacy of secrecy from time to time.

If someone has a mind to get into trouble, they will find a way.
and
A truly dangerous man, cannot survive in the world for very long.

Generally there isn't to much to worry about, just always keep your word.

ManO

horticult
12-06-2009, 01:11 PM
This secrecy is very strange thing.
It does not make any sense. Maybe after...
Consider that it seems never leaked... maybe cuz it can not be uttered & /hail 2 AC/ heared.
Consider that many knew the right material but were not able to do it.
Adepts say that only God will reveal IT, but they say nothing more about God and ultimate things...

solomon levi
12-07-2009, 01:47 AM
I wonder what God meant to them - which God will reveal it?
I don't know what everyone ascribes to, but the evidence of alien
visitors coming here and messing genetically with the ape-humans
seems pretty convincing to me. And I'm sure that, as mythology
reveals, these are the Gods that people would ask favors of, as it
makes no sense to ask it of the infinite.
I wouldn't want to deal with them, but maybe it's inevitable that
we do, if the Egyptian and Gnostic versions of an afterlife are correct.

On the other hand, seeking the answers from the Divine could be
a code word: sulphur, in greek, is synonymous with 'divine', as is
nitre/ntr in egyptian. I've also noted elsewhere that 'excreatori'
(excrement - urine) is phoenetically similar to 'ex creator' - from
the creator; seek the answer "from the Creator".

???

asket
12-07-2009, 07:06 AM
hi,
i like your discussions. what do you think about this:
if a philosopher's stone is able to accelerate and strengthen the transformation of an etheric information into a physical information there wouldn't be much time left to rethink an ongoing transformation. that could be the blessing of 10000 prayers spoken in one word or the rage of 10000 suffering souls in one curse. the blessing shouldn't be a problem because i think even blessing something "bad" will make it "better" until it's as "good" or better than the blessing like a synchronization. but the curse thing is quite a problem if we want to avoid something really bad to happen.
that could be a reason to cover alchemy in secrecy. but that's just a thought

solomon levi
12-07-2009, 08:41 PM
Hi Asket.
You bring up a good point.

Of course I can't say for sure, but I think that our thoughts and
intentions affect ourselves the most - well, I am sure about that -
and I'd like to think that the intention to cast a wicked curse,
the mere planning of something very evil, would make oneself
pretty sick, maybe incapacitated... I don't know. That would be
ideal anyways.
But there are probably ways around it. I'm imagining how there
are healers who are very empathic, and they have to ground
themselves really well in order to not identify too much with their
patient's experiences. Or how if you want to keep something from
a mind-reader or remote viewer, in your mind you should place it
in a safe. Maybe there are ways to curse others without cursing
oneself... hopefully not many people know about them.
Ultimately, there is no such thing as 'others'.

solomon :)

Joy
12-10-2009, 06:38 PM
Hey Solomon Levi,

thanks for your answer ... I agree and attach some thoughts.

May be you know Paul Foster Case ... he wrote this smal book:

Esoteric Keys of Alchemy ... which inholds a lot information.

One of the pupils from "Bota" complained, that they had to promise, to
keep all of it , which they learned in their lessons from "Bota" secret, and
than found it a short time later, exposed from the founder.

So all we have to do is to reach a certain level of development, lean back, and
the information, we need to come foward, will just fall on our open mind,
this is the way, it always happend to me.

The "Donum Dei" ... gift of god, is an information channel. We have only to tune
us in .... on the right day, in the right time, on the right level.

Nice Greets ... Joy:)

solomon levi
12-10-2009, 10:25 PM
I love his works. I haven't had the fortune of reading that one yet though. I'll do a search for it.
'The True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order' is one of my favs.

True Initiate
12-12-2009, 01:31 PM
Interesting thread.
I will try to explain my view's on the matter.

First of all you must ask yourself why are you here on earth?The answer is to free yourself from this low vibration on this planet through your thought's and deed's.Our earth in my opinion is just a purgatory through we must ripe us higher otherwise we are bound to her for another cycle.

The philosopher stone have the power to ripe your soul higher and to free yourself and after you achieved it there is no need to stay on this vibration field anymore... You are free!

That is the reason why this science is a secret because after you achieved it you are transformed and ready for the next level which begins on a higher vibration, on a new earth.

Tal
04-14-2010, 08:40 PM
Edit: Nevermind, this is pointless.

Andro
12-01-2010, 09:32 AM
this is pointless.

This is really funny :)

Tal joined this Forum on April 12, 2010 and his last activity (above) was on April 14, 2010 (only two days after joining).

He only posted one message, which he deleted and replaced with "Nevermind, this is pointless".

The funny bit comes when you take a look at the "About Me" section on Tal's Profile (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/member.php?485-Tal).

As the reason for wanting to join Alchemy Forums, he stated: "To be a pointer".

:)

Aleilius
12-01-2010, 10:09 AM
This is really funny :)

Tal joined this Forum on April 12, 2010 and his last activity (above) was on April 14, 2010 (only two days after joining).

He only posted one message, which he deleted and replaced with "Nevermind, this is pointless".

The funny bit comes when you take a look at the "About Me" section on Tal's Profile (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/member.php?485-Tal).

As the reason for wanting to join Alchemy Forums, he stated: "To be a pointer".

:)
LOL nice!

Awani
12-01-2010, 07:58 PM
Tal in Swedish means speech, and backwards Lat means lazy. Lazy Speech.

Anyway such a reason would not be good enough to be admitted anymore.

:cool:

Road
06-03-2011, 12:57 AM
The earliest alchemists have told us that alchemy was first brought to us
by the gods or angels. They also tell us that it was in exchange for sex with
our women whom they found beautiful. You can see these relationships in
biblical writings and the book of Enoch; even Zosimos passes down this
knowledge of alchemy's origin.

~You Misunderstand; Knowledge Was Granted Out Of Compassion—Out Of Love As It Were—To Those The Benei Ha'Elohim Took As Companions (As Well As To The Resulting Offspring Of Their Unions), It Was Not Done To Satisfy Any Base Trade Transaction, I.E., It Was Not Done In Exchange For Sex.

solomon levi
06-05-2011, 08:32 AM
~You Misunderstand; Knowledge Was Granted Out Of Compassion—Out Of Love As It Were—To Those The Benei Ha'Elohim Took As Companions (As Well As To The Resulting Offspring Of Their Unions), It Was Not Done To Satisfy Any Base Trade Transaction, I.E., It Was Not Done In Exchange For Sex.

Misunderstand? I understand both stories just fine.
Why must one be right and the other wrong?
The universe I know has an infinite capacity to mediate from the One.

Road
06-05-2011, 10:46 AM
Misunderstand? I understand both stories just fine.
Why must one be right and the other wrong?

~The Answer Is Simple—One Is Historical Truth.


The universe I know has an infinite capacity to mediate from the One.

~Yes, And Engender Many Shadows... I Prefer Myself To Dwell Above The Fray Of Maya.

solomon levi
06-05-2011, 10:52 AM
~The Answer Is Simple—One Is Historical Truth.



~Yes, And Engender Many Shadows... I Prefer Myself To Dwell Above The Fray Of Maya.

I think you will find that historical truth is not other than maya.

Road
06-05-2011, 11:01 AM
I think you will find that historical truth is not other than maya.

~But Heavenly Truth Is Another Matter... (Which Is The Whole Point).

solomon levi
06-05-2011, 11:28 AM
Heavenly truth is another matter. :)

Whose whole point? I started this thread and you want to tell me what the point of the thread is?
Interesting.

I've described one point. You've described another.
I see both as valid. You see me misunderstanding.
It was you who did not stand under the point of this thread.
You stepped out from under it and made your own point.

Fine. But you're not qualified to presume what I understand. :)

Road
06-06-2011, 01:17 AM
Heavenly truth is another matter. :)

Whose whole point? I started this thread and you want to tell me what the point of the thread is?
Interesting.

Truly? I Make No Point Which You Yourself Have Not Already Acknowledged. Though By Your Admission You May Not Agree With The Practice; Nevertheless You Correctly Ascertain The Origins Of The Inviolable Oath As Having Root In The Divine. This Covenant Is Not Fashioned To Bind The Spirit As Some May Conceive, But Only To Purpose.


I wonder what God meant to them - which God will reveal it?

Their Progenitor Grants Such Wisdom; This Is The Deity They Honor Above All Others. In Exchange For The Light Of Revelation, All Who Are Of Their Number Are Required To Uphold The Dread Oath.



I've described one point. You've described another.
I see both as valid. You see me misunderstanding.

I Found It Puzzling How One Who Acknowledges The Heavenly Could Ascribe To Such, Base Motives. It Seemed To Me, A Discrepancy To Be Addressed. I Confess I Still Do Not Understand How One Can Disparage His Creators.

solomon levi
06-09-2011, 06:30 PM
I find it puzzling that you would ignore all the various writings from
various ancient civilizations which tell us that the gods found the
earth women beautiful and "came down" and had sex with them, often
in exchange for knowledge, secrets, etc.
If these writings are not evidence of "historical truth", as you say, what is?
It's quite clear that they found them beautiful and had sex. In some other
writings and mythologies we find them falling in love, but not all of them.

In some stories it is very clear that the gods are base. Rape is not an uncommon
act for the gods to perform. Nor murder, genocide, slavery, animal and human sacrifice, etc, etc.

You seriously want to tell me such events did not happen and are not historical truths?
That only your one version of love is the historical truth?
I didn't invent this. I'm merely quoting ancient historical texts.

For you to say I misunderstand merely means I don't understand the same as you.
Yours is not the only way to understand things, nor THE historical truth.
History is a very long span of time in which this planet has been visited by different gods
many times - not just once by ultruistic loving gods.

"I Confess I Still Do Not Understand How One Can Disparage His Creators."
Well, I don't consider "the gods" my creators. For me, Creator should be singular,
and not a singular god-being but rather a singular substance (Universal Prima Materia) which
is creator and created - one, not two.
The gods of the bible and many other mythologies are extraterrestrials that didn't
create man so much as genetically alter him. They are not God any more or less than I am
or you are, but demanded to be worshipped as gods because of their advanced knowledge
and technology - base indeed. Though the serpent/Enki/Ea may be considered relatively more
loving than Enlil/Jehovah, as some ancient religions (the greek, for example) point out.
It is quite obvious to me that there are historical histories that take the perspective of
either side, depending on which god they worshipped - the eagle/sky god/Jehovah-Enlil or the
serpent/water-earth god/Enki/Satan/etc.
To speak of one historical truth is narrow-minded IMO. Do you deny others their religions as well?
Everyone is misunderstanding except those who agree with your one version of things?
I'm not interested in such a view. It is not historically true that there is one historical truth. :)

Alchemy, revealed by the All-One to those followers of nature is a different topic IMO, if that is
what you are speaking of. It does not contradict this topic, but runs simultaneously parallel to it.

I object to calling anyone's view a misunderstanding simply because it doesn't agree
with your view. It's a very diverse world we live in. Since my "god" is the All-One, I try not to
negate anyone else, for that "disparages god" in my book. :) There are infinite understandings.
A misunderstanding is a non-entity - I've never seen one, though I used to believe they existed
when my thinking mind was more dominant than my perceptive mind.

Andro
06-09-2011, 06:42 PM
Dear Mr. Solomon Levi,

You once again managed to leave me speechless with your eloquence and open-ended ways of perception.

WOW.

Thank you ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

And a BIG e-Hug :)

solomon levi
06-09-2011, 07:04 PM
Thanks Androgynus. I needed a hug. :)

I still have to figure out how my all-embracing view objects to calling anyone's view a misunderstanding. :D
I am all-embracing BUT I don't embrace anything not all-embracing. hahaha!

It feels the same as the Ouroboros swallowing its tail. It's the same as when I embrace Oneness to the
point of uselessness and get blasted back into duality. There's some weird membrane there where the manifest
and unmanifest are constantly alternating at some incredible speed. Or like falling into a black hole will eventually
create a singularity and blast you out of a white hole on the other side. :)
This leads to that and that leads to this.
Carlo Suares, the great qabalist, defines the Aleph:
"Aleph is the unthinkable life-death, abstract principle of all that is and all that is not."

Ghislain
06-09-2011, 11:46 PM
It feels the same as the Ouroboros swallowing its tail. It's the same as when I embrace Oneness to the
point of uselessness and get blasted back into duality. There's some weird membrane there where the manifest
and unmanifest are constantly alternating at some incredible speed.

Everything is in constant flux...good times lead to bad and back again, but what is good and what is bad?

whatever we percieve it to be...

The only constant is change.

IMHO

Ghislain

Road
06-10-2011, 08:21 AM
I Apologize If I Hurt Your Feelings, Or Offended Your Pride. I Was Remiss In Not Taking Into Consideration The Human Ego.

Awani
06-10-2011, 08:43 AM
Since my "god" is the All-One, I try not to negate anyone else, for that "disparages god" in my book. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

:cool:

Andro
06-10-2011, 09:32 AM
I Found It Puzzling How One Who Acknowledges The Heavenly Could Ascribe To Such, Base Motives.

This might come as a shock to some - but the alien-ET 'gods'/genetic manipulators need to piss, shit, fuck and feed just like the rest of us.

As an example for the (apparently still ongoing) earth human naivety:

If the 'gods' use cloaking technologies to make themselves appear/disappear from the visible spectrum at will, it DOES NOT make them 'Inter-Dimensional Beings'.


I Confess I Still Do Not Understand How One Can Disparage His Creators.

Sure, there are many god/creator posers. But we are ALL from the same Universal Source, ultimately beings of our own Creation/Imagination. Not an easy ONE to digest, though :)

Also, Road, if you would more clearly define what/whom you perceive as 'creators' (instead of moving directly to 'apologies') - maybe it would save some of the friction.

And even maybe, possibly, reveal some common ground...

What say you?


I Was Remiss In Not Taking Into Consideration The Human Ego.

I have found that the best way to take into consideration and address the issue of the human ego - is to start by taking a good look in the mirror.

(I used Road's quote, but I am not addressing this to anyone in particular)

But if we want to watch out for symptoms of an overinflated ego (in the spiritually inclined 'community'), we can look for the sanctimonious tone, the pontificating demeanor, the fixed dogmatic patterns, etc...

We don't fix 'The Stone' to become fixed like 'The Stone' - but to UN-Fix ourselves :)

That's the way I see it, anyway...

Road
06-10-2011, 10:59 AM
This might come as a shock to some - but the alien-ET 'gods'/genetic manipulators need to piss, shit, fuck and feed just like the rest of us.

You Are Largely Correct, Though A Few Have Transcended These Things.


Also, Road, if you would more clearly define what/whom you perceive as 'creators' (instead of moving directly to 'apologies') - maybe it would save some of the friction.

And even maybe, possibly, reveal some common ground...

What say you?

I Have No Wish To Elaborate At This Time.

3+O(
06-13-2011, 05:17 PM
The earliest alchemists have told us that alchemy was first brought to us
by the gods or angels. They also tell us that it was in exchange for sex with
our women whom they found beautiful. You can see these relationships in
biblical writings and the book of Enoch; even Zosimos passes down this
knowledge of alchemy's origin.
In the Codex Marcianus (11th century), one of the earliest alchemical
manuscripts extant, "Isis the Prophetess to her son Horus", Isis tells Horus
that while he was away fighting Set, she was in Hermopolis studying angel
magick and alchemy when she was noticed by a lusty angel. But the angel
could not answer her questions about alchemy, but he bargained to bring
a higher angel who would answer her. He returns the next day with Amnael,
who also finds Isis desireable and agrees to barter alchemical knowledge
for sex. He reveals to her the mystery of his sign/sigil and then makes her
swear the great oath never to reveal these secrets to anyone but her son.

I do not think this story of Isis should be interpreted historically, but anagogically. It seems to me clearly to be a recipe, as Amnael's arrival bearing the sign on his head and carrying a translucent jar of water to mate with the black goddess Isis (Nature) indicate to me the white stage. Look also to Isis' emphasis on the position of the stars and the καιρός, the divine and critical moment.


So if we accept these origins of alchemy, it is clear that the secrecy is to keep
humans from becoming gods/god-like (as in the bible) and also to keep them
from knowing the angels names and signs which would make them vulnerable
to a priestesses or magus' control.

Granted, there are other reasons to keep alchemical secrets, some moral,
some for protection, some to prevent abuse... but the obvious origin of this
secrecy comes from beings, the majority of which are not amiable towards
humans, but are rather intent on keeping us in the dark and in control/slavery.
They are the Gnostic archons, if you will. And as Gnostics, we would defy
their restricting oaths. :p

Concerning secrecy, knowledge of the matter is not verbally communicable, as it resembles nothing else, and as is equally well-said, resembles all things, so that this singular thing may not be distinguished from among the multitude by any description merely. It doesn't matter how plainly the sages speak (and truly, they speak far more plainly and openly than most imagine) without that the Deity takes pity and deigns to enlighten us, we would never understand and remain in confusion until death (at least!)

So I must disagree that the tradition of secrecy in alchemy was instituted by the archons and lower authorities, but rather by God (viz. "I was a hidden treasure..." and the parable of the pearl of great price and many gnostic allegories) nor I do not believe this should be an astonishing assertion: any so-called "divine" power which could be contained in ink and paper would not deserve the description.

If the alchemists have been so jealous, then how can it be said of their matter that all see it and it is found wherever man is found? They have been as explicit as it is possible to be. It is our confusion and our vain delight in ignorant notions that prevent us from seeing it clearly and making use of it. And that this 'secrecy' is so tied up with the matter and work that they can never be untangled is a proof of the divinity of the Art.

solomon levi
06-13-2011, 08:26 PM
I never intended to be an authority on this subject (secrecy).
I was just posting some info. That's all anything is to me - info.
Sometimes info matches one's experience; sometimes not.
I'm not surprised, nor does it matter, if anyone disagrees with the info I posted.

And when I object to anyone claiming to know what I understand and misunderstand,
that's just basic relativity and quantum subjectiveness. The ego is obviously the one that assumes
it knows someone else rather than describing their interpretation of the info. So nice try Road,
but you volunteered as an ego when you believed you knew what I misunderstand - it was
obviously important for you to point that out - that I misunderstand and you understand -
even though we were speaking about different info. If you were more loving and universal,
you might have approached it a different way, like - "I have a different view. Here it is:...."
But you needed to promote your understanding and demote mine as if they were in competition.
So I don't think you'll be schooling me on the ego any time soon.


If you, or anyone else like, I freely admit that the title of the thread may be off. I didn't mean, or say,
that this is the ONLY origin of secrecy. Sorry if people are interpreting me that way. But if you knew me,
you'd know that I never believe I have the ONLY description. Please take anything and everything i say
as just info, a description - one among trillions. The composite of knowledge and mind that is Solomon Levi
is a very small entity indeed. We are in total agreement there. Does this really need to be pointed out? Is
there any named persona that isn't? Is Road merely Road and that's all?

If you can think a thing, it is true and possible and existing somewhere. There is simply no such
thing as a thought that doesn't exist, for that which doesn't exist can't be thought about or written or verbalized.
As soon as you invent the idea of a thought that doesn't exist, it exist. So post different thoughts by all means.
But tell me my thought is wrong or a misunderstanding, and you reveal your own knowledge/ignorance of thought,
and of me, and of yourself (which are All-One). You are defining your reality, not mine. Is that not apparent?
If you want to know my reality you can ask me. The first post of this thread is but a frozen moment of time and
perception. It says nothing about who I am right now or what I understand or perceive as my picture of reality today.
I defend it, only that any description exists and has a right to exist. And the fact that I used other sources is proof
that others can also see this viewpoint, so who are you to say it's a misunderstanding? The ego is revealed in the one who
believes this is a historical truth misunderstanding when it is merely a misunderstanding relative to your understanding.
Take the ego out of the equation and there are simply two understandings, as I said earlier.

This reflects the position I am currently choosing. There are many others who agree that agreement makes reality -
Castaneda wrote on this in his books and lots of people read those books and hopefully proved this to themselves.
If you'd like to verify it yourself, create a language or alphabet and show it to someone else and have them memorize it
or whatever and the two of you can communicate via this new language/alphabet because you agree what the symbols
or sounds mean. I have explained myself pretty well. If you don't care to see my view, that's your option. But it is a valid one,
as valid as any other, and as invalid as any other.

3+O(
06-13-2011, 09:32 PM
If your views are wide as all that, you can certainly accommodate the possibility the story is yet another description of the work, as well as yet another confirmation that Earth Girls Are Easy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097257/) ;)

Andro
06-14-2011, 08:08 AM
I do not think this story of Isis should be interpreted historically, but analogically.

It is possible to interpret it on multiple levels. And if one can astrally time travel, one can go check for himself :) Quite a few have done exactly that...


knowledge of the matter is not verbally communicable

Yes it is (of sorts). And some adepts have done that, in plain language. See, for example, 'The Confession of Trithemius' (Abbott of Spanheim).

But, then again, it depends what we mean by 'knowledge' of the matter. Knowing OF the matter is not quite the same as KNOWING the matter :)


How can it be said of their matter that all see it and it is found wherever man is found?

Not only where man is found, but everywhere. And the matter can not be 'seen' (unless made seen by Art) , but only recognized in its effects.

Or maybe you refer to a different matter... an 'auxiliary' matter for the Work...

Quoting myself from another thread:


There are different types of matter which are commonly mistaken as 'one' matter, for which we believe we need to search in the physical realm.

This has created much confusion in interpreting the texts of the old masters, especially because ALL matter is ultimately an incarnation of the ONE matter.

In practice and application, we have the matter(s) for our Matrix or Magnet (as support), the matter(s) for our 'Athanor' (as Portal/Separator/'cooking' oven), the true Source Matter (Primordial Matter) which is the Philosophical Matter, and the matter(s) in/through which the Source Matter is perpetually 'circulating' (see Emerald Tablet) in immaterial form and also easiest to be brought forth from (SEPARATED and made physically manifest).
✂----------------------------------------------

solomon levi
06-15-2011, 05:13 PM
If your views are wide as all that, you can certainly accommodate the possibility the story is yet another description of the work, as well as yet another confirmation that Earth Girls Are Easy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097257/) ;)

Certainly! :)

Krisztian
05-08-2012, 10:32 PM
Thank you.

Not long before this I had begun keeping dream diaries. I observed changes and I wrote them down. I wrote everything down. I saw a change at the time of the New Moon... and a week or so later I stumbled upon some books by Carl Jung and recognised an image from a dream and realised what I was doing had a name. It was the first time I heard about alchemy.

Some of us would say that you, chrysopoeia, had an initiation, based on what you shared. Good for you!

My strangest by far initiation took place for me when I stumbled upon an old manuscript (1619) from the celebrated English physician, Rosicrucian (and among other things) Robert Fludd, that contained several drawings, probably half-a-dozen; one of which labelled "The Prophet," depicting an initiate, I assume, kneeling down by the riverbank, hands in praying posture, water being poured on top of his crown, . . . and to my absolute astounishment, the face of the initiate looks identical to my face! It could be, easily, a black and white rendition of a modern photo of myself. I showed, this piece of Fludd's drawing to several people, asking them what they thought of the drawing, not hinting even the slightest to whether they see my face. And without fail, everyone was taken back by how much it looked like my face. (The hair is even curly, like mine.)

Krisztian
05-08-2012, 10:50 PM
I didn't add - I was interrupted by telephone - that I highly recommend Jung's recently published, Red Book. His documented psychic break with reality.

For my profession, I studied Jung's theories on psychotherapy. I however realized over the years that Jungians in general, like Dr. E. F. Edinger's work, Ego and Archetype, among many others, don't recognize what we mean by true alchemy, the practical aspect. It's very misleading, it becomes so, when studied deeply with a close eye.

chrysopoeia
05-13-2012, 02:57 PM
My strangest by far initiation took place for me when I stumbled upon an old manuscript (1619) from the celebrated English physician, Rosicrucian (and among other things) Robert Fludd, that contained several drawings, probably half-a-dozen; one of which labelled "The Prophet," depicting an initiate, I assume, kneeling down by the riverbank, hands in praying posture, water being poured on top of his crown, . . . and to my absolute astounishment, the face of the initiate looks identical to my face! It could be, easily, a black and white rendition of a modern photo of myself. I showed, this piece of Fludd's drawing to several people, asking them what they thought of the drawing, not hinting even the slightest to whether they see my face. And without fail, everyone was taken back by how much it looked like my face. (The hair is even curly, like mine.)

It would seem that you were meant to stumble upon that manuscript, Krisztian.
Thank you, I have the Red Book but I have not read it yet.
As to Jungian psychotherapists, they do know the symbolism from a psychological point of view and this is a good thing.

MarkostheGnostic
05-15-2012, 04:00 AM
I didn't add - I was interrupted by telephone - that I highly recommend Jung's recently published, Red Book. His documented psychic break with reality.

For my profession, I studied Jung's theories on psychotherapy. I however realized over the years that Jungians in general, like Dr. E. F. Edinger's work, Ego and Archetype, among many others, don't recognize what we mean by true alchemy, the practical aspect. It's very misleading, it becomes so, when studied deeply with a close eye.

I took over 8 years of analysis with three Zurich-trained Jungian analysts. My second analyst, the late Rev. Dr. Roger Radloff, was analyzed by Jolanda Jacobi, who had been analyzed by Freud, Adler, AND Jung. I applied for, and was interviewed by three, then by 12 analysts, but was rejected from analytical training, by my best reckoning, for deep involvement with psychedelics. After my rejection, in Memphis, TN in 1991, I went antiquing in Memphis with my (now) ex-wife, before returning to Miami. I found a pair of mushroom book ends, and a hand carved and painted wooden alchemist leaning over a retort (See pic. One mushroom bookend next to skull, wood alchemist under Alchemist sign). Both objects were symbolic of things to come.

It took 17 more years to begin practicing the physical aspect of alchemy. The Jungians fall short of understanding the physical actions that serve a ritual purpose as well as a simply practical end. Alchemy is based upon Synchronicities as far as I can tell, and Sychronicities are 'miracles' in the sense that the archaic word 'spirit' means 'consciousness' for post-modern people like us.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=474

Albion
05-15-2012, 12:28 PM
Alchemy is based upon Synchronicities as far as I can tell...

Thank you for sharing this insight, MarkostheGnostic.

Fun, and potentially instructive to consider, at the very least.

MarkostheGnostic
05-15-2012, 07:48 PM
Thanks Albion. This is where I'm at with physical/laboratory alchemy. If laboratory processes are based upon strictly Physical processes, without any Psychic, or Pneumatic aspects, then we are talking about chemistry, strictly speaking. Chemistry is based upon physics, which is based upon models of the atom. There, we have ionic and covalent bonds, shell theory, etc., all grounded in quantifiable cause-effect processes, all which can be replicated given the same physical conditions of temperature and pressure. Psychic and Pneumatic aspects are not acknowledged in a strictly Physical paradigm.

With alchemy, we have astrology and its corollary - correspondences, which in turn, has associations with magick. There is also a qabalistic framework that can be applied. But the first three: astrology-correspondence-magick, can all be seen as iterations of Synchronicity. If we apply a Taoist notion, that 'certain things like to occur together,' a notion that Richard Wilhelm helped C.G. Jung to understand, then we see the Taoism that contributed to Jung's theory of "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle." The astrological consideration is that the shape of space-time is constantly being stretched according to the changing locations of planetary bodies. These changes happen in predictable patterns, and astrologers have come to see the correspondences between momentary planetary configurations, and, say, the moment of birth, such that a horoscope drawn of that 'snap-shot' of the planetary processes will reveal certain types of personality formation. Each planet, like the gods and goddesses they are named after, represent specific archetypal qualities, which in turn, correspond to personality qualities.

Each of us is a unique combination of 'planetary spirits,' or archetypal motives. The motives are universals, but the percentage of each universal in us creates our individuality, like unique snowflakes made of universal water molecules. For example, astrologically, I have a lot of Air, but no Earth in my chart. I am a 'space cadet,' as many have called me, but my Water from Cancer the Crab gives me attachment (claws) via emotion, and so, I am not 'flighty,' but loyal, because, like a hot air balloon, I carry water for ballast. I therefore, have some gravitas to my personality. I have been called 'bright,' because my Mercury (intellect) is in the Solar constellation Leo. All these qualities (and more, which can be described by different systems) are the result of the die which was cast, astrologically, at the moment of my birth. We are the result of cosmic processes working through psychophysical human processes. 'As above, so below.'

Now if one believes that one can set up a number of Physical correspondences 'below' (i.e., "Labora"), in consonance with specific planetary astrological configurations, create the Psychical correspondences with 'True Imagination' (Jung's 'Active Imagination'), and contemplate the PsychoPhysical correspondences ("Ora"), then High Magick (Theurgy) may be said to be happening. IF, the Physical, Psychical, and Pneumatic aspects all result in an 'unexpected outcome,' a coincidence of inner and outer elements, circumscribed by a force that transcends cause-effect, then a Mystical aspect can be said to have occurred. In this sense, Magick, devised by the Microcosm has yielded to Mysticism, arranged Synchronistically, Transcendentally, or Miraculously. If such 'unexpected outcome' does not manifest (not Mystic/Miraculous), yet it results in a 'Big Dream,' replete with archetypal symbols, then one can still admit that a lesser event (Astral, not Causal) has manifested in one's subjective inner life - something Psychic/Magickal. In this sense, alchemy is Transcendental Magick. (Procuring outer gains by Psychical or sub-Psychical [Chthonic] means strikes me as Thaumaturgy, low magick, sorcery, and is not included in my meaning here).

Krisztian
05-16-2012, 02:12 AM
I took over 8 years of analysis with three Zurich-trained Jungian analysts. My second analyst, the late Rev. Dr. Roger Radloff, was analyzed by Jolanda Jacobi, who had been analyzed by Freud, Adler, AND Jung. I applied for, and was interviewed by three, then by 12 analysts, but was rejected from analytical training, by my best reckoning, for deep involvement with psychedelics. After my rejection, in Memphis, TN in 1991, I went antiquing in Memphis with my (now) ex-wife, before returning to Miami. I found a pair of mushroom book ends, and a hand carved and painted wooden alchemist leaning over a retort (See pic. One mushroom bookend next to skull, wood alchemist under Alchemist sign). Both objects were symbolic of things to come.
It took 17 more years to begin practicing the physical aspect of alchemy. The Jungians fall short of understanding the physical actions that serve a ritual purpose as well as a simply practical end.

Thanks for writing that piece, MarkostheGnostic. I cannot but overly agree with your conclusion! I sadly realized that while Jungian literature can be profound, helpful, and freeing, when one truly examines it's deeper implications, especially those taken from alchemy, it's greatly flawed! I say 'sadly' because I realized that, it seems, Jung took the profound symbolism from alchemy, reworked it to fit his theory, but I don't think he truly understood, OR perhaps didn't know what to do with, the real aspect of alchemy, the practice itself. I spoke with Jungian Analysts, they don't believe in anything like a Philosopher's Stone. They're seeing it purely as a symbolic statement. For me, it's much more than just symbolic.

In any case, alchemy is not for everyone. It is as it should be.

Krisztian
05-16-2012, 02:25 AM
MarkostheGnostic: I noticed in the photo you posted a wood carving of the word 'alchemist' (on your bookshelf). Wow, you're a brave man! I hide it under all circumstances that I play with alchemy or, elixir making. No one knows, other than my girlfriend, and mother.

Before starting on the path, I received several strong warnings! that I should not under any circumstances discuss my alchemical practice. OR, certain very important doors of my path will remain closed; in terms of making magisterium medicine, palingenesis, etc. So, I took the clear warnings well, and try to blend into complete anonymity.

MarkostheGnostic
05-16-2012, 03:05 AM
My former professor, Bob Brier, the Egyptologist/Parapsychologist had a similar sign that read, 'Metaphysician.' I've had that for years over my chair in my consulting room. I'm a part-time psychotherapist/hypnotherapist. My lab pictures that you can find here in my photo album is at the other end of this room. Like Honey Badger, I don't give a shit. If you think this is bold, I wonder what you'll say about the license plate on my car for the past 20 years or so.

http://i49.tinypic.com/1zps76q.jpg

thoth
05-16-2012, 06:57 PM
Great Plate
:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
05-16-2012, 09:07 PM
Great Plate
:cool:

Thanks!

Krisztian
05-17-2012, 12:40 AM
My former professor, Bob Brier, the Egyptologist/Parapsychologist had a similar sign that read, 'Metaphysician.' I've had that for years over my chair in my consulting room. I'm a part-time psychotherapist/hypnotherapist. My lab pictures that you can find here in my photo album is at the other end of this room. Like Honey Badger, I don't give a shit. If you think this is bold, I wonder what you'll say about the license plate on my car for the past 20 years or so.

Don't get me wrong, if it works for you, that's all that matters. . . . For myself, I got several very distinctive signs and experiences where it was quite evident that I should keep all alchemical pursuits quiet. The same message kept coming back, in different situations. I just try to learn from what guidance I receive from 'invisible forces' daily. The moment I got the message "right," my progress eccelerated greatly. That's all.

MarkostheGnostic
05-17-2012, 04:24 AM
Hey man, I don't know anything about your life situation. I push the envelope in various ways. I am an outlaw in at least one way, therefore I share my Entheogenic Enthusiasm selectively. I am a certified addictions specialist and hold additional mental health related certifications and a state license to diagnose, and treat mental disorders. I'm wearing my still-growing hair, long. I'm wearing blue jeans, biker boots and Pink Floyd or Grateful Dead accessories to work as a crisis/substance abuse counselor in my country's 4th largest school system. I have knowledge, experience, ethics, compassion, and personal aesthetics. I AM the older generation, and I defy the robots, sheeple, and groveling ass-kissers I am surrounded by. AND, I have a lot to lose if I'm discovered growing a fungus that is older than humankind (as utterly stupid as that is). I don't know where you are, or how free you are able to be. I do not violate the laws of God and nature, only perhaps the ignorant fear-based rules of humans in this locus. No judgement here.

I had some kind of "federal agent" come to my house for hypnotherapy not too long ago. He would not reveal what agency he worked for (FBI, ATF, DEA, etc.). I told him that the lab set-up was not a meth lab, in jest. He looked at me and said he realized that (apparently he knew what a meth lab looked/smelled like). I am not concerned about the opinion of others. I can say that I am working with essential oils to access the deeper 'smell brain' in hypnosis, the rhinencephalon, or 'smell brain,' in order to retrieve repressed memories. It's a possibility, not a lie. Most people are not very curious. Most people care for little other than their most basic first three chakra needs. My interests are invisible to most people.

Awani
05-18-2012, 02:08 AM
For myself, I got several very distinctive signs and experiences where it was quite evident that I should keep all alchemical pursuits quiet.

Like Markos said I can't comment on your life situation, but speaking generally I think nothing should be kept quiet. Anything that is fringe, outside-the-box, controversial, brave, original, thought-provoking, insightful, healing etc... should NOT be kept quiet.

My feeling is that this is why the human race evolves so slowly, because we always judge/assume others around us (especially those that seem too normal) won't understand.

How can they understand something they don't know anything about?!

Again secrecy, imo, is not the way forward. This doesn't mean one should rush forward like a maniac, apply stealth when it is tactically necessary.

:cool:

Krisztian
05-18-2012, 03:26 AM
For me, the battles of the ego, rebelliousness, "fighting for the right", proving this or that, standing for this or that, freeing, rescuing this group or that group, wearing a certain "image" for identity's sake, etc., has long lost my interest. "Freedom" for me is a state of rest inside, peace from emotional human-pull for this or that cause; for whatever the cause, it's always about the ego, the terrestrial world. The more I advance, the less interested I am of humanity, and their fights, games, emotional turmoil, the using of other groups to fight against, showing that one is big, right, smarter, etc. I have deep love for the people in my life, but I also have enough love to be also allowing, being in a state of disinterestedness. There's no wrong, people will be back lifetimes after lifestimes, there's no mistake, it is what it should be. Why play the hero role? We play that, when we ourselves have been wronged. But that's more about a wounded ego, not spirituality.

French alchemist Dubuis said it best: ". . . it is of great importance to accept what is asked of you and to work on it. Any individual who has started to lift the barrier of birth and death, automatically enters the sole authentic esoteric organization, the one which doesn't proceed from the Earth plane but from the Invisible World" (Esoteric Knowledge, p. 150).

Another quote that I recently found from Dubuis, also explains it better than I could say, ". . . if part of creation has been made invisible to the layman it is by necessity and whoever wants or begins to contact the Invisible should not show it to the layman" (p.141). It's dangerous, misleading, confusing. It fosters ego-dependence. That's not spirituality either.

I posted a title of a book, Five Years of Theosophy, that best depicts my own spiritual process, and another member of this Forum kindly posted a free link, I believe it's under "A Long Life in one incarnation". I'm more closer to what's said within those pages.

Krisztian
05-18-2012, 03:30 AM
In any case, thanks both of you for letting me know where you stand. I respect your positions.

MarkostheGnostic
05-18-2012, 03:38 AM
Perhaps this little ditty sums up the tenor of this thread:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2aha2qp.jpg

Awani
05-18-2012, 04:22 AM
For me, the battles of the ego, rebelliousness, "fighting for the right", proving this or that, standing for this or that, freeing, rescuing this group or that group, wearing a certain "image" for identity's sake, etc., has long lost my interest.

I agree with you what you defined freedom as, but I would not go so far as to say that ego has anything to do with fighting a battle. The most important battles are fought without ego, without concern for the self. It is not about proving something... we all agree on the most basic things anyway which is peace and love (even those that seem against these things are deep down for it, in a round about way).

Personally fighting for freedom, internal and external, has never been about wearing an image or ego... rather it is the only way. I cannot, will not, ignore either slavery or the enslaved.

If it is true that we come back life after life then I assume the goal is to not come back one day, to reach nirvana. Will those that add nothing to the evolution of the race return? Probably. It is a game, all of it, but it is a collective game.

Quitters will always be loosers. Ignorance will always be bliss.

Freedom is hard. Fighting for it even harder.

You say you have lost interest, perhaps I would too if I shared your view on the matter, but as I see it differently I gain interest the more I play the game. Because even if you decide to take part in the game or not, you are still playing. Be it sitting on the bench, or scoring goals. There is no escape!

This is my perspective on the matter, and the subject matter is important to discuss I think.

:cool:

Andro
05-18-2012, 04:26 AM
Markos, these things come in threes :)

There's dumb, there's smart and there's also wise.

The smart are smart enough to outsmart the dumb, and the wise are wise enough to avoid them both and to seek the like company of wisdom equal or greater than their own.

Just like there's adulthood, maturity and wisdom, which aren't mutually interchangeable.

I think wisdom/knowledge is ALWAYS found by those seeking it AND ready for it. In this regard, there is no secrecy. Never was, never will be. Way it goes, IMO.

And I'd also say that the path to knowledge/wisdom is 'initiatory' (aided or not), as opposed to 'informative'.

It's the difference between philosophers and technicians.

Krisztian
05-19-2012, 07:07 PM
Androgynus, what you said is the very point I was making, thank you for offering your point of view.

chrysopoeia
05-22-2012, 12:57 PM
Hello,

This has become quite a hot thread and thank you everyone for posting.

I would like to continue the discussion but I have had some problems of late.
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Mod Edit: Continued on Privacy Issues (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2912-Internet-Privacy-Issues)

chrysopoeia
07-05-2012, 10:34 AM
I took over 8 years of analysis with three Zurich-trained Jungian analysts. My second analyst, the late Rev. Dr. Roger Radloff, was analyzed by Jolanda Jacobi, who had been analyzed by Freud, Adler, AND Jung. I applied for, and was interviewed by three, then by 12 analysts, but was rejected from analytical training, by my best reckoning, for deep involvement with psychedelics.
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=474

Hello MarkostheGnostic, would you be able to describe the analytical process you experienced a little? It's okay if you would prefer not to go into details, just say so. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Did the analyst lead the sessions or did you simply speak your mind, thereby allowing the psyche to determine the direction of the analytical process?

Krisztian
10-29-2012, 08:26 PM
This Art doesn't belong to humans, it's from the Royal lineage, and we either 'borrow', 'play' or 'pay respect' to alchemy; and the closer you get to the Lapis, the more visible you become, the more 'guarded' the Art is.

Things can go astray quickly. It is best not to temp those Forces by being public!

vega33
10-31-2012, 08:00 PM
This Art doesn't belong to humans, it's from the Royal lineage, and we either 'borrow', 'play' or 'pay respect' to alchemy; and the closer you get to the Lapis, the more visible you become, the more 'guarded' the Art is. Things can go astray quickly. It is best not to temp those Forces by being public!

I do know what you mean, and thank you. I suppose this is my catch-22 and even part of my natal-chart: the paradox between silence/secrecy and the desire to reveal/share for the good of others. The stage of alchemy has changed since the inception of global communication; and while it is gratifying to be able to discuss things with people, it is tempting to speak without realizing you're discoursing at the peristyle of the temple so to speak. But its a difficult paradox to untangle. How much is too much information?

solomon levi
10-31-2012, 09:45 PM
"How much is too much information?"

It's always changing. You're either one of those who push the envelope, or
one who is conservative. I'd like to see more "too much information". ;)

vega33
11-01-2012, 12:28 AM
"How much is too much information?"

It's always changing. You're either one of those who push the envelope, or
one who is conservative. I'd like to see more "too much information". ;)

Well I don't think its quite that simple :)

I have tended in the past towards being very public in talking about the outward aspects of things seen. And I may have even overstepped the bounds of the hermetic oath from time to time. Yes, there is such a thing, even Tat and Asclepius when talking with one another were liable to occasionally say "hold your tongue, my son" or "keep silent".

And its not even totally a responsibility thing or a personal self security thing (although that may certainly become involved in any internet communications). One risks the danger of providing a solution to the enigma without taking into account the simultaneous spiritual revelation, which exposes others to dangers to themselves or others from lack of proper understanding. Its because the enigma is wrapped up in the question of spirits (which was/is to be the topic of my first thread) and thus life/consciousness that the problem is there I think. Kris, I'd be interested to get your opinion on this (and if this is better split into a separate thread, all the better).

Krisztian
11-01-2012, 02:09 AM
Kris, I'd be interested to get your opinion on this (and if this is better split into a separate thread, all the better).

Why exploit Nature? (I mean that from the stand point of alchemy). If Mother Nature wants to reveal Her "secrets" then that's between Her and your spirit. Would you do that to your beloved mother?

This Royal Art seems to be open only to those, in relation to the Magnum Opus, who approach it without any intention of betrayal, exploitation, so forth. That's why few enter the inner chamber. Don't you take off your shoes when you enter your friend's home? The type of intimate relationship(s) one has is very telling of the distance one can take in alchemy, I believe.

vega33
11-01-2012, 02:54 AM
Why exploit Nature? (I mean that from the stand point of alchemy). If Mother Nature wants to reveal Her "secrets" then that's between Her and your spirit. Would you do that to your beloved mother?

This Royal Art seems to be open only to those, in relation to the Magnum Opus, who approach it without any intention of betrayal, exploitation, so forth. That's why few enter the inner chamber. Don't you take off your shoes when you enter your friend's home? The type of intimate relationship(s) one has is very telling of the distance one can take in alchemy, I believe.

I think we may be talking crossed-channels here, because I was more referring to your comment about "tempting forces by going public". Unless you're referring to the idea that ideas/insights shared by the Living One by direct received transmission (true QBLH) shouldn't be shared outside of that relationship? If so... well, there have been many messengers (Walter Russell for example), and they revealed what they were called to reveal. I suppose I have a different view of the injunction to hold ones tongue. Because occasionally one has to write, or has to share with others... its a matter of checking in with the aforementioned Living One to see whether this particular piece of information should see the light of day. We should remember that without the many Prometheus's, we'd still be living in the dark ages.

solomon levi
11-02-2012, 06:56 PM
I've never noticed any retribution in sharing. I'm not saying it doesn't exist.
It's just that things are different for everyone. It could come from outside or
from oneself/guilt/suspicion/paranoia or not come at all. There's all kinds of
bullshit that can happen if/when an artist plays in the bullshit area of the spectrum.

Bel Matina
11-03-2012, 07:27 PM
This is a dauntingly large conversation to try to join and for no apparent reason I'd like to open with a reworked translation of the tablet I've been throwing around.

What's true of the art is true of everything.
If it's not true of everything, it's not true of the art.
This encompasses the entirety of the mysteries of the art.

Doubtlessly some will find this or that aspect of it objectionable, but I think it sheds light on what is meant by the injunction not to say what can't be said.

All words depend on context for their meaning. You can't know a dog if you've never seen one, nor colors if you're blind. This doesn't just go for broad categories, rather every single verbal communication is understood by the listener as a chimera of their own experiences, just as someone who's never seen a dog might imagine it from description as a monstrous hodgepodge of other animals.

Moreover, everyone starts from nothing, and has to tie experiences piecemeal to each word. The vagueness of childhood memories and the profuseness of words which we can profitably rely on others to have the necessary context for obscures the fact that we only know what others tie to a word once we know them and have heard them use it often enough to tie it to our experience of them.

Thus there's a danger when talking about the esoteric (properly the private or internal, thing within the domain of individual experience, but not the ignorant usage of anything outside the realm of common experience as 'esoteric') that we will misjudge the content of the other's experience, or which experiences they tie to our words, or both, yielding a deformed, corrupted message. Obviously they may misunderstand and think we're speaking nonsense; but there is greater danger in those circumstances where the words are accepted, but rooted in a flawed context which might yield ungrounded implications that inform harmful actions. It should be noted that this latter phenomenon is in many specific contexts helpful rather than harmful, provided the other is capable of redacting the words to conform to their experiences, in which case they may have discovered a new way of approaching the context, but most of the time their flawed understanding produces a false prediction which they relay to us and we can immediately try to correct the communication.

In the case of the art, however, which according to its purpose applies equally well to all contexts, it's very easy for a student to root the words in a limited context. If the words are true to the art, not only will the student be able to root it in whatever particular context is closest at hand, but it will make predictions that hold and it may be very difficult for us to tell that there is a flaw in their understanding. Worse, no matter how insistent we are that these things are to be understood as universal, without direct experience of the universal it is much easier for them to invent a new context, not rooted in experience, which they term 'the universal' or 'divine' or 'above' or 'the Dao' or however we explain it. Then the work may go well for them, but if they're only building castles in the air and confections of smoke, it's not terribly helpful to them or anyone else. I can't think of anyone who might be more aptly termed a 'puffer'.

I used to think that I was extremely liberal with this injunction, but the more I go out into the community and speak openly about the art the more I find that I'm actually very careful to use doublespeak to kind of 'feel out' the experiences of people I talk to. I speak in ways that are either rooted in a solid common context (I find academic language very useful for that) or I use a kind of cant that most people will ignore as nonsense but which is tailored to be understood by the individual I'm talking to (usually a variant on the language of birds). Mostly, though, I listen to people for a long, long time before I tell them anything meaningful.

Of course there might be negative context whether the message simply fails or if it is partially but not completely understood. People are typically not very happy with you when you say something they don't understand, and with repeat offenses that kind of censure can spread pretty far and even get institutional. And of course even a slight understanding of the art can give an individual fair power over their circumstances, so one who understands the art up to a point and then takes a left turn will be going about attempting to fix their life and everything in contact with it, which leaves you with the choice of either sticking around and suffering collateral damage or abandoning the situation and leaving the mess for someone else to clean up.

solomon levi
11-03-2012, 11:15 PM
What's true of the art is true of everything.
If it's not true of everything, it's not true of the art.
This encompasses the entirety of the mysteries of the art.


Yes, I like this alot. It also tells one/defines what kind of art one is doing.
i.e. if it's not true of everything, then your art is particulars.

SolX
11-14-2012, 12:28 AM
greetings yet again Solomon levi. shhhhsss seems like i am following you around. lol.
but realy i'm not. i think i just like the same things you do.

i read most of this thread not all. some of it was repetitive

Arguments for full disclosure of the art:
it was said that the god whom ever they are or were. that this knowledge was not to be share with man. that right there pushes my buttons and angers me. to denie us this art is tantamount to controling a Golum. are we to be called a Golum? i feel we do have a place in this universe and to keep from us what others know is very naughty.

Arguments against disclousurs:
is our species realy ready for the purmutations that may follow from this knowledge? will the sudden and irreversable knowing damage some of our species?

Opinion:
i for myself do not wish to become responsable for potentialy causing harm to my fellow terrans. that may or may not in the end cause untold millions of deaths. or even a resuffeling of the cards of those that hold the power on the earth. i can see this may pose a casostrophic result if not done wisely.

Solution
perhapps we may need some rules and giudelines of behavour first to prevent possable damage to our selves first. our species should have behavor rules in the use and presentation of things such as the advanced arts. of which we do not have any rules. certainly our way of command has not worked for us over the last 25,000 years. were we to ask of the gods a thing my first question would be. what are your rules and regulations reguarding the knowledge that has been denied to our species?

Solx
terran and always confused

Awani
11-14-2012, 12:36 AM
what are your rules and regulations reguarding the knowledge that has been denied to our species?

Has it been denied? Or have we perhaps not been paying attention?


Vision is the art of seeing what is invisible to others. - Jonathan Swift

:cool:

SolX
11-14-2012, 12:51 AM
:D heheehe this has been and always will be a very long lasting argument Dev.

i have had many arguments over this with others and even more arguments with just myself. in the end i always come to the fact that we are a species extremly proficent at forgetting things. lol

Solx
the terrans say "huh? what?"

Awani
11-14-2012, 01:20 AM
in the end i always come to the fact that we are a species extremly proficent at forgetting things.

Reminds me of this quote by Merlin from an, in my opinion, excellent film: Excalibur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur_(film))


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzpzELgcijU

:cool:

solomon levi
11-17-2012, 12:18 AM
Hi SolX!


greetings yet again Solomon levi. shhhhsss seems like i am following you around. lol.
but realy i'm not. i think i just like the same things you do.

i read most of this thread not all. some of it was repetitive

Arguments for full disclosure of the art:
it was said that the god whom ever they are or were. that this knowledge was not to be share with man. that right there pushes my buttons and angers me. to denie us this art is tantamount to controling a Golum. are we to be called a Golum? i feel we do have a place in this universe and to keep from us what others know is very naughty.

Arguments against disclousurs:
is our species realy ready for the purmutations that may follow from this knowledge? will the sudden and irreversable knowing damage some of our species?

Opinion:
i for myself do not wish to become responsable for potentialy causing harm to my fellow terrans. that may or may not in the end cause untold millions of deaths. or even a resuffeling of the cards of those that hold the power on the earth. i can see this may pose a casostrophic result if not done wisely.

Solution
perhapps we may need some rules and giudelines of behavour first to prevent possable damage to our selves first. our species should have behavor rules in the use and presentation of things such as the advanced arts. of which we do not have any rules. certainly our way of command has not worked for us over the last 25,000 years. were we to ask of the gods a thing my first question would be. what are your rules and regulations reguarding the knowledge that has been denied to our species?

Solx
terran and always confused


I see the "rules" become self-evident and not need to be spoken whenever realisation occurs.
It just feels natural and balanced to live this way - one doesn't think about it.
For me it is a physical-energetic feeling of balance which takes more effort to create imbalance in
than it does to allow equilibrium - I feel it like magnetism or gravity. Like the balance of the gunas before they
manifest, before one dominates.
Dissolution/water is like a state of oversaturating the mind so that one is receiving so much information
and there's nothing to choose/emphasize one bit over another to specialise or determine it - they are all
equally emanations from the One.

III
11-17-2012, 07:06 AM
Secrets. Get them while they are hot!

Patanjali in his Yoga Sutras, and Vivekananda translating them in RAJA YOGA, mentions the "rules" in yoga for considering a claim of "new" chambers (for lack of a better term, new understandings, new knowings, new something or other) is that there are NO SECRET PLACES. Any claim of secracy of mystic knowledge is suspect and not validated by other Yogis. Another requirement is that for a new chamber to be valid it must have been validated by another visiting it. There is no self validation. One must be able to teach it and take those skilled in the art to such chambers. Ramakrishna had to be able to take his student Vivekanada to those "new" chambers in order to demonstrate he wasn't just doing mysticbabble. The 5 rules for new whatever are also obvious and self apparant when one is in the chambers that contain that information.



So, there are no secrets. There are many things beyond one persons or another comprehension. The secret keeps itself. People are literally unable to understand things they don't have the foundation to understand. Helping them learn to understand is a large part of the process. I can't tell a person anything of meaning. Sometimes I get lucky and somehow get them to see past their previous limits by holding up the mirror to their chronics (again EJ Gold's terminology meaning the sleeping machine's chronic reaction that keeps the blinders on, more or less). An apprentice is a time and work intesive investment

However, in many societies being thought different from local tribalism beliefs was very dangerous. In pre Christian Roman empire there was a period in which being a Christian was dangerous. Being a Jew was dangerous everywhere but in their home areas when they had one. Then in the Christian Roman empire it got dangerous for non Christains. So to say "Don't cast pearls before swine" might very well mean "the walls have ears". You could get killed for identifying yourself in some way as something despised, like a secret jew in Nazi Germany. I was physically assaulted for being an anti war protester by fellow college students in 1966 who assumed that I was a pacifist becasue I was against the Viet Nam war. They got pissed off when I fought back because they thought they were going too be able to beat the crap out of me without any hazard to themselves. That year I escaped with a sprained ankle and dislocated jaw from 2 of many fights. The kid who jumped on my back and sprained my ankle ended up with a broken arm he refused to explain to police. I smiled to him as I walked by him sitting with the cops. He was the only one of the group the cops caught who were tearing down the 25 foot tall rairoad tie structure for the homecoming bonfire built by freshmen, like me and my friend who their group attacked when we saw them.


Now in yoga there are the assumptions that it is somebody already with the needed skills is the one to which the "new" thing is revealed and the other part, it must be teachable can take some decades to teach somebody sufficiently from the beginning to be able to go to difficult to find chambers. The two year traditional trial period is just that, a trial. Can the person learn? Can the other teach that person? Learning these mystical yogas is really no more difficult than learning to play the piano, and not very well at that. However, while there can be some philosophy, purification and theory, the vast amount of what is taught is literally unspeakable. I used to teach skiing. That is a physical teaching. So is learning to hit a fast ball or play tennis. There are literally no secrets to tell, only things that would damage the persons learning if given at the wrong time. They torched the structure the next night, 24 hours before homecoming. Upperclassman were out to "disgrace" the freshman class. It was really weird, and dangerous, then too. There were several times I could have died if things had happened differently. I learned the back way out of everywhere. So "loose lips sink ships" is the nature of the secrets. I spread plenty of disinformation so their plans for me would go wrong because I wasn't where they were planning on me when they were planning.


As far as I can tell secrecy was about survival. As in so many things necessity becomes santified to justfy it's continued practice, make a virtue of it, easier than remembering why. Getting burned at the stake certainly got my attention for a long time. The memory is seared into me, like fake grillmarks on some manufactured steaks.




Th

z0 K
11-17-2012, 04:06 PM
Chap. VIII
Of obscuring the Mysteries of Art and Nature:

After an enumeration of some few examples concerning the prevalency of Nature and Art (that by these few we may gather many,) by these parts the whole; and so from particulars, universals, which will demonstrate the unnecessary aspiring to Magick, since both Nature and Art afford such sufficiencies. I shall now endeavour a methodical precedure in singulars, having open both the cause and waye; in particular: and yet I will call to mind how as (of Nature) are not committed to Goats-skins and Sheep-pelts, that every clown may understand them, if we follow Socrates or Aristotle. For the latter in his Secreta Secretarum affirmes, He breaketh the heavenly Seal, who communicateth the Secrets of Nature and Art; the disclosing of Secrets and Mysteries, producing many inconveniencies. In this case Aulus Gellus in Noct. Attic. de Collatione Sapiextum, sayes, It’s but folly to profer Lettices to an Asse, since hee’s content with his Thistles. Et in lib. lapidum, The divulging of Mysteries is the diminution of their Magestry, nor indeed continues that to be a Secret, of which the whole fry of men is conscious.

For that which all men, which wise, and the more noted of men affirme is truth. That therefore which is held by the multitude, as a multitude, must be false; I mean of that multitude, which is distinct from knowing men. The multitude, it’s true, agree with wise men in the more vulgar conceptions of their mind; but when they ascend to the proper principles and conclusions of Sciences and Arts, they much different (striving to get onley the appearances of Sophismes and subtilities of which wise men altogether reject.) And this their ignorance of the proprieties and Secrets, makes the division from knowing men. Though the common conception of the mind, have all one Rule and Agreement with knowing men. Yet as for common things, they are of small value, nor enquirable for themselves, but rather for particular and proper ends.

The Reason then, why wise men have obscured their Mysteries from the multitude, was, because of their deriding and slighting of wise mens Secrets of wisdome, being also ignorant to make a right use of such excellent matters. For if an accident help them to the knowledge of a worthy Mystery, they rest and abuse it to the manifold inconvenience of persons and communities. Hee’s then not discreet, who writes any Secret, unless he conceal it from the vulgar, and make the more intelligent pay some labor and sweat before they understand it. In this stream the whole fleet of wise men have sailed from the beginning of all, obscuring many wayes the abstruser parts of wisdome from the capacity of the generality. Some by Characters and Verses have delivered many Secrets. Others by aenigmatical and figurative words, as Aristotle sayes, (in lib. Secret, O Alexander, I shall disclose to you the greatest of Secrets, which it becomes you by divine Assistance to keep secret, and perfect the thing proposed. Take then the Stone, which is no Stone, which is in every man, and in every place, and in all times; and it shall be called the Philosophers Egge, and the Terminus Ovi. And thus we find multitudes of things obscured in the Writings and Sciences of men, which no man without his Teacher can unvail.

Thirdly, They have obscured their Secrets by their manner of Writing, as by Constanants without Vowels, none knowing how to read them, unless he know the signification of those words. Thus the Hebrews, Caldees, Arabians, nay the major part of men do most an end write their Secrets, which causeth a great obscurity amongst them, especially amongst the Hebrews. For as Aristotle sayes in his fore recited Book, God gave them all manner of wisdome long before they were Philosophers; And all Nations had their Orginals of Philosophy from the Hebrews, as Albumazar in ilb. Introductorii Majoris; and other Philosophers, with Josephus lib. I & lib. 8. Antiquit. make evident.

Fourthly, This obscuring is occasioned by the mixture of several sorts of Letters for so the Ethnick Astronomer hid his knowledge, writing in Greek and Latine Letters altogether.

Fifthly, This obscuring was by their inventing other letters, then those which were in use in their own, or any other Nation, being framed meerly by the pattern of their own fancy, which surely is the greatest impediment; yet this was the practice of Artefius in lib. de Secretis Naturae.

Sixthly, they used not the Characters of Letters, but other Geometircal Characters, which have the power of Letters according to the several Position and Points, and Markes, And these he likewise made use of.

Seventhly, There is a greater Art of obscuring, which is called Ars Notoria, which is the Art of Noting and Writing, with what brevity, and in what manner we desire. This way the Latines have delivered many things. I held it necessary to touch at these obscurings, because it may fall out, I shall thorow the magnitude of our Secrets discourse this way, that so I may help you so farre as I may.

[Frier Bacon His Discovery of the Miracles of Art, Nature, and Magick; Faithfully translated out of Dr. Dees own Copy, by T.M. and never before in English; London, 1659]

z0 K

III
11-17-2012, 07:35 PM
Obscuring indeed.

And it may very well have saved Bacon's life, livilihood and reputation because of the centuries of religious intolerance and bigotry. If he had spoken plainly he would have been up before the inquisition as Galileo was centuries later.

Much tantra has been rewritten and obscured with a differnt language set for a different set of prejudices than existed elsewhere/elsewhen, so as not to offend modern American and British prejudices. It can be difficult making real information available while totally misleading the general populace. This of course makes it easy for frauds of every type to offer whatever version they can reap the most from while teaching a pretend alchemy of any variety Everybody learning those things in the end walk away asking "Where's the beef"? as they never get to anything real. As Haule estimates that 99% of those purporting to be teaching Tantra are not teaching alchemy. They are teaching rituals. I heard of one young lady who decided that she could learn to teach Tantra from scratch in 6 months. It's simple enough to make a good start at learing in 6 months but it takes quite a while to complete the learning phase. The fakes teach all sorts of rituals and skills but not how to wake up. So in a sense they keep that secret as they don't even mention such since they don't know it themselves. One can only teach what one KNOWS, and not in an accademic sense. It can be a delicate balance as Sufis have often been murdered off by the Muslims of the centruies past as they speak a little too freely about forbidden things.

The cost is very high, but not in currancy. The cost of waking up from the dream is hopes and dreams, nightmares and fears simply in the exercise of KNOW THY SELF.

The real secrets keep themselves. Secrets for safety sake are a different issue. It may even be disinformation to suggest that is is purely to protect sacred ideas from profane eyes and ears rahter than saying "if they knew the truth they would kill me". That would attract the wrong kind of attention.

So now instead of being "nuts" or up before the inquisition or whatever one is laughed off as "new age" and "old hippy" which is really quite harmless. The backlash against Sting a few years ago was trivial. A naked dance in the moonlight by a bunch of ladies might be an executable offense in some times and places and now it would be a late night tv joke about lesbians. It isn't a blood sport currently in the USA to hunt down mystics.

Nibiru
11-18-2012, 02:41 AM
Hello All, I just wanted to stop in to inform everyone that what Solomon Levi and Vega33 speak of concerning the potential difficulties that may arise through working with these energies is truth from my experience.

Please understand there is a reason these discoveries may be difficult to make/realize and are usually not written openly in obvious terms.

What I have recently been through I would not wish upon my worst enemy(if I believed in such a thing), while on the other hand it has been a great blessing/gift and I am thankful for being granted the experiences/revelations as they have completely changed my view on 'reality'. I feel that I have been walking the thin line between life and death, while at the same time slipping/bouncing back and forth between sanity (accompanied with genius-type revelations), and and an almost complete mental, emotional, and spiritual chaos that would make some of my worst nightmares seem pleasant. Everyone who knows me personally will vouch that I am a very generous person who loves to share, whether it be knowledge or material goods.

This is something entirely different, that I'm uncertain what would happen if the information was given openly. The idea of openly revealing such paths could be viewed as on par with Timothy Leary's declaration that LSD should be added to all of the public water systems. At times I've felt that this could be a 'good' thing for humanity, but once you've experienced and witnessed a few 'bad' trips you begin to second guess your initial opinion...

Please tread carefully and thank you for listening :)

Krisztian
11-18-2012, 08:27 PM
I feel that I have been walking the thin line between life and death, while at the same time slipping/bouncing back and forth between sanity (accompanied with genius-type revelations), and and an almost complete mental, emotional, and spiritual chaos that would make some of my worst nightmares seem pleasant. Everyone who knows me personally will vouch that I am a very generous person who loves to share, whether it be knowledge or material goods. This is something entirely different, that I'm uncertain what would happen if the information was given openly. The idea of openly revealing such paths could be viewed as on par with Timothy Leary's declaration that LSD should be added to all of the public water systems. At times I've felt that this could be a 'good' thing for humanity, but once you've experienced and witnessed a few 'bad' trips you begin to second guess your initial opinion.

Thank you for sharing it Nibiru, and giving such warning.

III
11-18-2012, 10:33 PM
Hello All, I just wanted to stop in to inform everyone that what Solomon Levi and Vega33 speak of concerning the potential difficulties that may arise through working with these energies is truth from my experience. Please understand there is a reason these discoveries may be difficult to make/realize and are usually not written openly in obvious terms. What I have recently been through I would not wish upon my worst enemy(if I believed in such a thing), while on the other hand it has been a great blessing/gift and I am thankful for being granted the experiences/revelations as they have completely changed my view on 'reality'. I feel that I have been walking the thin line between life and death, while at the same time slipping/bouncing back and forth between sanity (accompanied with genius-type revelations), and and an almost complete mental, emotional, and spiritual chaos that would make some of my worst nightmares seem pleasant. Everyone who knows me personally will vouch that I am a very generous person who loves to share, whether it be knowledge or material goods. This is something entirely different, that I'm uncertain what would happen if the information was given openly. The idea of openly revealing such paths could be viewed as on par with Timothy Leary's declaration that LSD should be added to all of the public water systems. At times I've felt that this could be a 'good' thing for humanity, but once you've experienced and witnessed a few 'bad' trips you begin to second guess your initial opinion..

I apologize in advance if this is the wrong thread for this post, please tread carefully and thank you for listening :)

Hi Nibiru

I just wanted to ask if most of this has been in the last 2 weeks. As far as we can tell around here the background energy has been quite high for some while and especially the last 2 weeks. It feels like something substantial has happened or is happening, to both of us. I have a "different" explanation for my emotional volitility since mid September. I had a neurological relapse building gradually over 6 months and a crash. Since mid September I have been undergoing some neurological healing which is always emotionally volitile. When it is happening in certain ways from the Alchemical things we do, it's like waves of spreadsheet recalculation are sweeping back and forth in my mind until something resolves or doesn't.




Good luck

lwowl
11-19-2012, 12:10 AM
Hello All, I just wanted to stop in to inform everyone that what Solomon Levi and Vega33 speak of concerning the potential difficulties that may arise through working with these energies is truth from my experience.

Please understand there is a reason these discoveries may be difficult to make/realize and are usually not written openly in obvious terms.

What I have recently been through I would not wish upon my worst enemy(if I believed in such a thing), while on the other hand it has been a great blessing/gift and I am thankful for being granted the experiences/revelations as they have completely changed my view on 'reality'. I feel that I have been walking the thin line between life and death, while at the same time slipping/bouncing back and forth between sanity (accompanied with genius-type revelations), and and an almost complete mental, emotional, and spiritual chaos that would make some of my worst nightmares seem pleasant. Everyone who knows me personally will vouch that I am a very generous person who loves to share, whether it be knowledge or material goods.

This is something entirely different, that I'm uncertain what would happen if the information was given openly. The idea of openly revealing such paths could be viewed as on par with Timothy Leary's declaration that LSD should be added to all of the public water systems. At times I've felt that this could be a 'good' thing for humanity, but once you've experienced and witnessed a few 'bad' trips you begin to second guess your initial opinion...

Please tread carefully and thank you for listening :)


Dragon and Lotus

Know the way of the Dragon; the legends speak true. The Dragon sleeps in the hidden Cave until it senses the hunger for new treasures. Then the Dragon rises with great energy burning power and flies into the universe to find the needed treasure. None can withstand the penetrating power of the Dragon fire that secures the treasure. The Dragon returns to the Cave and deposits the treasure then sleeps because it has exhausted the energy to adventure.

While the Dragon sleeps the Lotus absorbs the treasure and develops admirably. When the Lotus has consumed the treasure’s energy the Dragon awakes to find new treasure to nurture the Lotus.

The Dragon is one way the subtle body opens to the Microcosm. It could just as easily open to the Microcosm as a Lotus. First the wings unfold with great flux of energy fanning outward. Then the fire races up the inner channel and is pulled into the flight of the wings. A great emptiness concentrates in the center as the fire joins the wings. The emptiness demands to be filled. The Point at the crown opens the gate to Eternity. It manifests as a swirling shaft. This is the I of the Dragon. Follow it to the end and you may merge with the Cosmic Egg at the center of the Microcosm. Move perpendicular across the shaft and the Universe opens to you.

The way of the Dragon is powerful and can burn you and crack your vessel. The way of the Lotus is subtle. The petals open the blossom exposing the pistil that opens the gate to the Microcosm. Nurture the Lotus and it will open pleasantly. Then you won’t burn yourself with your dragon.

Once I rode the Dragon to the Cosmic Egg. Nothing I had read; nothing I had been told prepared me for it. I was not following any method to produce this result. I was circulating Chi separated from the breath of air and I added Shen from an alchemical elixir I had made. The energy went up so I added more Shen and the wings I never knew I had unfolded from my head just above the ears. The Dragon fire was roaring up the central channel and the Shen distilled into the emptiness. There I crossed the vortex shaft from the right and exited to the left. Looking down the shaft I saw a brilliant light. I knew it intuitively as the great Cosmic Egg. When I exited the shaft I was in a stationary orbit near the surface of the Cosmic Egg. The gnosis of ONE saturated me. I was open and Eternity poured in. I saw the beginning of the Universe, the structure and the flow, and the return.

I wrote down what I could. The wings stayed open for several days until I went under a malfunctioning fluorescent light that was strobing. That hurt my head and the wings folded in.
Nowadays I can activate the whole system, but I nourish the Lotus and for now the Dragon sleeps.

lwowl

horticult
11-19-2012, 02:16 PM
thanks for report!

would you elaborate "the beginning of the Universe"?

Andro
11-19-2012, 05:25 PM
I just wanted to ask if most of this has been in the last 2 weeks. As far as we can tell around here the background energy has been quite high for some while and especially the last 2 weeks.

Mercury has been Retrograde since November 6th, which is almost 2 weeks. These retrograde periods are almost always initiatory for me to various degrees.
Personally, I've had trouble sleeping during the past weeks (Although I DO have such periods every once in a while).
I am also aware of a few others who usually sleep very well, but have had difficulties sleeping during the last weeks as well.

I was also reminded of the recent Eclipse which occurred in Scorpio, and a celestial event such as this is always challenging. Scorpio also rules secrecy, by the way...


I had a neurological relapse building gradually over 6 months and a crash.

I hope you recover well.
______________________________________

All these aside, I DO get a sense of overall 'escalation', in multiple areas.

Maybe it is somehow connected to the 2012 item (whether actual or mass-programmed, there's not really a difference in the fore-math).

Nibiru
11-20-2012, 12:39 AM
You're welcome Krisztian and thank you lwol for you explanation of the dragon and lotus as I'm able to relate quite well.




Hi Nibiru

I just wanted to ask if most of this has been in the last 2 weeks. As far as we can tell around here the background energy has been quite high for some while and especially the last 2 weeks. It feels like something substantial has happened or is happening, to both of us. I have a "different" explanation for my emotional volitility since mid September. I had a neurological relapse building gradually over 6 months and a crash. Since mid September I have been undergoing some neurological healing which is always emotionally volitile. When it is happening in certain ways from the Alchemical things we do, it's like waves of spreadsheet recalculation are sweeping back and forth in my mind until something resolves or doesn't.




Good luck




Hello III, I would say I've been going through the intense episodes for almost a month now. I'm uncertain what exactly sparked the chaos but it seems to relate to some strange dreams I've recently had and my practical alchemical progress. It could all just be astrology as well or perhaps everything is interconnected, I'm still in the process of trying to put the pieces back together.. I'm sorry to hear of your recent difficulties and I hope your recovery goes well :)

lwowl
11-20-2012, 12:59 AM
thanks for report!

would you elaborate "the beginning of the Universe"?

The beginning of the Universe is relative to the orientation of your perception. The Universe is Eternal and Infinite yet it has a beginning and an end. This is a paradox and that is the Point from which the Universe is born.

The Universe begins in the embrace of the Absolutely Unknowable and the Supreme Ultimate in a whirling Yin/Yang. The Absolutely Unknowable is Nothing; the Supreme Ultimate is Everything.

Perhaps it would be easier to unfold by myth.:)

lwowl

solomon levi
11-20-2012, 03:57 AM
What lwowl calls the dragon and lotus I see also as the dry and wet paths of alchemy, respectively.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCp7VO_RG3Oz-PYucM_PGrNkX9-9Wz4Ksv8qTYpKRe8N1uEKqq

Where the word "dry" is on the diagram I drew the serpents head swallowing the tail.
Because earth and water = salt, water and air = mercury, air and fire = sulphur, and fire and earth = the stone.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUbDShPmZFGlqPeAGGJQQaqurY2B6oT PFqiPLSza7Pc0YukjWD

Since we all begin with earth/saturn, we have two options: combine earth with water (wet path) or with fire (dry path),
because alchemy and natural philosophy teach us to use medians (google must be getting dumber - I can't find an
alchemical latin diagram of the elements with "est" and "non est" between the elements) - basically, we can't join earth
and air or water and fire without going through a mediator.
Now most people who think and see linearly don't consider joining earth and fire, and they shouldn't attempt it or they
will get burned. Linearly, we think this way:

fire
air
water
earth

and so it seems earth and fire are the farthest from eachother and would go against the rule
of nature using medians... but nature works in circles, not straight lines. The dry path is the short path,
but not open to all (to the linear). The wet is longer but safer, more controlled/conscious.

http://www.greatdreams.com/sacred/myterium-pansophicum.gif
The two paths according to Boehme - Nature and Grace.

solomon levi
11-20-2012, 04:52 AM
In regards to the secret protecting itself, notice what don Juan says about the safety valve:

"We are not naturally petty and contradictory. Our pettiness and contradictions are, rather, the result of a transcendental conflict that afflicts every one of us, but of which only sorcerers are painfully and hopelessly aware: the conflict of our two minds! One is our true mind, the product of all our life experiences, the one that rarely speaks because it has been defeated and relegated to obscurity. The other, the mind we use daily for everything we do, is a foreign installation.
To resolve the conflict of the two minds is a matter of intending it. Sorcerers beckon intent by voicing the word intent loud and clear. Intent is a force that exists in the universe. When sorcerers beckon intent, it comes to them and sets up the path for attainment, which means that sorcerers always accomplish what they set out to do.

Intent can be called, of course, for anything, but sorcerers have found out, the hard way, that intent comes to them only for something that is abstract. That's the safety valve for sorcerers; otherwise they would be unbearable. Beckoning intent to resolve the conflict of your two minds, or to hear the voice of your true mind, is not a petty or arbitrary matter. Quite the contrary; it is ethereal and abstract, and yet as vital to you as anything can be."

Does it make sense? Only those in search of the abstract/unknown have Intent
as an ally. Those looking for concrete recipes, etc will be ignored by Intent.

Intent is aka spirit.

solomon levi
11-20-2012, 05:33 AM
"What's happening to you is the workings of infinity. Your sensation of nervousness is due to the subliminal realization that your time is up. You are aware of it, but not deliberately conscious of it. You feel the absence of time, and that makes you impatient. I know this, for it happened to me and to all the sorcerers of my lineage. At a given time, a whole era in my life, or their lives, ended. Now it's your turn. You have simply run out of time.
Your malady is a very simple one: your world is coming to an end. It is the end of an era for you. Do you think that the world you have known all your life is going to leave you peacefully, without any fuss or muss? No! It will wriggle underneath you, and hit you with its tail."

The "era" is of course the ego/tonal, not physical death.
But if one is unstable, they will confuse the two, and there is danger in that.
It's really hard to differentiate the two, because even ego death has a physical side to it.

Castaneda wrote that the tonal/ego is so egomaniacal that it will try to kill the body
before giving up the throne to the Nagual (Spirit/Intent/Equilibrium/What Is...)

solomon levi
11-20-2012, 05:48 AM
"The end of an era is an accurate description of a process that shamans go through in dismantling the structure of the world they know in order to replace it with another way of understanding the world around them. I've endeavored, from the very instant we met, to introduce you to the cognitive world of the shamans of ancient Mexico.
The world of the sorcerers of ancient Mexico is different from ours, not in a shallow way, but different in the way in which the process of cognition is arranged. In our world our cognition requires the interpretation of sensory data. The universe is composed of an infinite number of energy fields that exist in the universe at large as luminous filaments. Those luminous filaments act on man as an organism. The response of the organism is to turn those energy fields into sensory data. Sensory data is then interpreted, and that interpretation becomes our cognitive system.
The end of an era means that the units of a foreign cognition are beginning to take hold. The units of your normal cognition, no matter how pleasant and rewarding they are for you, are beginning to fade. A grave moment in the life of a man!" - Castaneda

III
11-20-2012, 06:37 AM
In regards to the secret protecting itself, notice what don Juan says about the safety valve:

"We are not naturally petty and contradictory. Our pettiness and contradictions are, rather, the result of a transcendental conflict that afflicts every one of us, but of which only sorcerers are painfully and hopelessly aware: the conflict of our two minds! One is our true mind, the product of all our life experiences, the one that rarely speaks because it has been defeated and relegated to obscurity. The other, the mind we use daily for everything we do, is a foreign installation.
To resolve the conflict of the two minds is a matter of intending it. Sorcerers beckon intent by voicing the word intent loud and clear. Intent is a force that exists in the universe. When sorcerers beckon intent, it comes to them and sets up the path for attainment, which means that sorcerers always accomplish what they set out to do.

Intent can be called, of course, for anything, but sorcerers have found out, the hard way, that intent comes to them only for something that is abstract. That's the safety valve for sorcerers; otherwise they would be unbearable. Beckoning intent to resolve the conflict of your two minds, or to hear the voice of your true mind, is not a petty or arbitrary matter. Quite the contrary; it is ethereal and abstract, and yet as vital to you as anything can be."

Does it make sense? Only those in search of the abstract/unknown have Intent
as an ally. Those looking for concrete recipes, etc will be ignored by Intent.

Intent is aka spirit.

Hi Solomon,

You can say THAT again.

Intent can be called, of course, for anything, but sorcerers have found out, the hard way, that intent comes to them only for something that is abstract. That's the safety valve for sorcerers; otherwise they would be unbearable

Surely, excellent choices. An interesting choice of words.

lwowl
11-21-2012, 12:42 AM
"What's happening to you is the workings of infinity. Your sensation of nervousness is due to the subliminal realization that your time is up. You are aware of it, but not deliberately conscious of it. You feel the absence of time, and that makes you impatient. I know this, for it happened to me and to all the sorcerers of my lineage. At a given time, a whole era in my life, or their lives, ended. Now it's your turn. You have simply run out of time.
Your malady is a very simple one: your world is coming to an end. It is the end of an era for you. Do you think that the world you have known all your life is going to leave you peacefully, without any fuss or muss? No! It will wriggle underneath you, and hit you with its tail."

The "era" is of course the ego/tonal, not physical death.
But if one is unstable, they will confuse the two, and there is danger in that.
It's really hard to differentiate the two, because even ego death has a physical side to it.

Castaneda wrote that the tonal/ego is so egomaniacal that it will try to kill the body
before giving up the throne to the Nagual (Spirit/Intent/Equilibrium/What Is...)

When your time is up it’s Palingenesis time. You burn to ashes sometimes horribly only to rise again on your Phoenix.

The ego is also the Toad and the Dwarf.

Castanada’s dissertation on the Tonal and the Nagual is a most lucid rendition of the Great Paradox.

lwowl

Ezalor
11-25-2012, 07:25 PM
On the original topic:

"Aurum nostrum non est aurum vulgi"
and
"My secret is such that I could shout it from the rooftops and it would remain a secret"

Real knowledge is only intelligible to those who are ready for it. In the other hand too, of course someone on a false path can acquire great power by the abuse of knowledge.

The resolution I think in theory, is very simple: Disclose everything, but in a way that you tell only the point, and assume the understand of its basis - that is, someone without the knowledge and understanding of that basis will find it unintelligible. In other words, disclose the very basics plain and simple that anyone can understand, the the higher levels in a way that only someone approaching that level can understand it. Or, I could recap it in a simple rule:

Say enough, but say no more.

However, in practice, finding the proper way of doing this, to say enough that one who needs to understand it will indeed understand without struggling, but say few enough that those not there yet won't understand, can be pretty tricky.


I think in an ideal world Alchemy and other magickal arts would be publicly known and recognized, and considered absolutely normal, openly taught at Universities* open to everyone, but with a strict filtering and selection, that one can ascend to the next class only when they are truly ready.

* Of course I don't mean something like a modern University, no, but rather a combination of ancient Universities and an order system where the student both receives general teachings in classes, is taught/supervised by a master directly, and is required to do their own free work and experimentations. And all without any kind of time limit or schedule so everyone can walk at their own pace.

III
11-26-2012, 04:42 AM
On the original topic:

"Aurum nostrum non est aurum vulgi"
and
"My secret is such that I could shout it from the rooftops and it would remain a secret"

Real knowledge is only intelligible to those who are ready for it. In the other hand too, of course someone on a false path can acquire great power by the abuse of knowledge.

The resolution I think in theory, is very simple: Disclose everything, but in a way that you tell only the point, and assume the understand of its basis - that is, someone without the knowledge and understanding of that basis will find it unintelligible. In other words, disclose the very basics plain and simple that anyone can understand, the the higher levels in a way that only someone approaching that level can understand it. Or, I could recap it in a simple rule:

Say enough, but say no more.

However, in practice, finding the proper way of doing this, to say enough that one who needs to understand it will indeed understand without struggling, but say few enough that those not there yet won't understand, can be pretty tricky.


I think in an ideal world Alchemy and other magickal arts would be publicly known and recognized, and considered absolutely normal, openly taught at Universities* open to everyone, but with a strict filtering and selection, that one can ascend to the next class only when they are truly ready.

* Of course I don't mean something like a modern University, no, but rather a combination of ancient Universities and an order system where the student both receives general teachings in classes, is taught/supervised by a master directly, and is required to do their own free work and experimentations. And all without any kind of time limit or schedule so everyone can walk at their own pace.


Hi Ezalor,

"My secret is such that I could shout it from the rooftops and it would remain a secret"

I know the feeling. If a person has the foundation to understand these kinds of secrets they are then obvious and proably no secret at all. If they don't it is impossible to explain it to them and is "nonsense", not secret. The secret keeps itself. These days things that would have been burning or hanging offence a millenia or 2 ago are jokes on late night TV and hence made harmless. After all something that is any or all of "new age" "feel good" sacred sex" or what ever is too silly be taken seriously. I've heard serious estimates by some in this "game" for 40+ years that perhaps one in 100,000 might actually understand what some are trying to get across.All but that one are unavble to even see the secrets as being meaningful or already know them and but not in a context that would be "secret". Wealth and power are what many want. All the real secrets I think I know of are about spiritual ideas like gaining self klnowledge and evolution of being. That doesn't even sound interesting or like fun even if approached through Tantric Alchemy apparantly. Almost nobody wants to know that.

People are looking for ways to make the dream better, not how to wake up from the dream. Only those that are already looking see and understand the clues.

solomon levi
12-08-2012, 01:37 AM
"It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself. Everything we do, everything we are, rests on our personal power. If we have enough of it, one word uttered to us might be sufficient to change the course of our lives. But if we don't have enough personal power, the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference.
I'm going to utter perhaps the greatest piece of knowledge anyone can voice. Let me see what you can do with it.
Do you know that at this very moment you are surrounded by eternity? And do you know that you can use that eternity, if you so desire?
There! Eternity is there! All around! Do you know that you can extend yourself forever in any of the directions I have pointed to? Do you know that one moment can be eternity? This is not a riddle; it's a fact, but only if you mount that moment and use it to take the totality of yourself forever in any direction.
You didn't have this knowledge before, now you do. I have revealed it to you, but it doesn't make a bit of difference, because you don't have enough personal power to utilize my revelation. Yet if you did have enough power, my words alone would serve as the means for you to round up the totality of yourself and to get the crucial part of it out of the boundaries in which it is contained.
Your body is the boundary I'm talking about. One can get out of it. We are a feeling, an awareness encased here. We are luminous beings and for a luminous being only personal power matters." - Castaneda

thrival
02-07-2013, 03:44 AM
I can't speak for others but I'm using this board toward my own personal development. When someone says something I agree with, I tend to think Oh, s/he thinks like me, in which case a reply seems almost redundant. You asked what practical applications others are using. Well people are at different stages and choose not to share for their own reasons. It actually bespeaks of integrity, NOT to talk about things until you've proven them for yourself, sometimes there are proprietary issues, respect (and fear of) the egyptian curse, etc.

God & the devil are in the details, and real know-how comes from sobriety, earnestness, faith, alertness, and recognizing for all your efforts that not everyone is on the same page, or worthy, which can appear elitist. It's important to remember that even though he helped a lot of people and demonstrated God's benificence to thousands, Jesus ascended alone. It's about dues-paying, proving one's self trust-worthy of powers otherwise abused. Humans are fallen and being tested, that's the real paradigm, despite other distractions the media and commerce likes to throw at us.

Individuals create industries and jobs based upon their discoveries, proprietary assertions, and the legal system. You don't find wealthy people sharing their edge. Alchemists are an exception and quite special in that regard, and I share annoyance and frustration because of people who won't reveal methods. I've found that sincere prayer and a luminal consciousness, observing dreams and daydreams, sometimes allows real information to come through. On occasion, God opens windows, you actually see and hear people, their conversations and innermost thoughts. The entire historical/akashic record is accessable (I didn't say it's easy) via a disciplined imagination. That's how I use this "spectrum of energy" and it's the only way to understand some of the posts here because a lot words are spoken without much content.

Eshai
01-25-2014, 03:58 PM
From what I have learned, the Alchemist would keep secrets for various reasons.

One reason might be similar to trade secrets: valuable knowledge that makes the Alchemist more successful than others. "Power shared is power lost."

Another might be fear: fear of being viewed as something the Alchemist is not, which would endanger them, such as being seen as a heretic, summoner of demons, or some such dangerous person to be put to the torch.

Or, secrets are kept to protect the ignorant. The Alchemist performs potentially dangerous processes, which if performed under the wrong circumstances would cause harm (we should all know the dangers of breathing Hg and Pb fumes, for instance).

And then there are more practical, mundane reasons. Such as, perhaps what the Alchemist does is simply illegal (whether this is right or wrong is not my decision to make for anyone but myself), and so the Alchemist works in secret to simply hide from the law.

So my question to you, Alchemists, is: do you keep your work a secret from those around you, and for what reasons?

I myself keep what I do a secret because of stigma and legal repercussions if wrongly accused by the ignorant. If my neighbors, who do not know me very well, hear that I have a "lab" in my home, they will most likely automatically think, "meth lab," and soon I will not only have the police at my door, but a horrible reputation to go along with it, even though I am innocent. Not to mention, I would not be surprised in the least if the police confiscated all of my possessions just to "make sure" everything was clean. And there would no doubt be a lot of broken (and expensive) glassware in the process. And who knows? They may just plant something illegal, or falsify reports, simply to make themselves look good and make an example of me in the process. (After all, my workspace is far more sophisticated than any meth head would assemble, and it would look good for their department if they were to, "successfully put a stop to a dangerous criminal in their jurisdiction.")

Awani
01-25-2014, 08:03 PM
Discretion and secrecy are two different things. I vote of discretion. Secrecy helps no one.

If someone judges you because you dabble in alchemy, or anything, then they are not worthy to be your friend or associate.

Also paranoia is silly. Fuck the police!

:cool:

Eshai
01-26-2014, 02:47 PM
For the most part, I agree dev. My friends are all well aware of what I do, and they understand it. It is the people who are not my friends (the people who do not know me) who, in their ignorance, could potentially cause harm. (e.g., my neighbors who do not know me well). So it is safer if they simply know nothing.

For me, there is a very fine line between discretion and secrecy. As I see it, secrecy may involve outright lies whereas discretion may not. (Such as omission of information.) Personally, I have no qualms with outright lying to protect my interests, so for me there is really no distinction between secrecy and discretion.


Fuck the police!
Hear, hear!

Dragonsblood
01-27-2014, 02:45 PM
I can also see in myself the frustration with the secrets of men, but somehow respond differently to things that can only truly be revealed (unveiled) - and can respect the aphorism "Mystery is to God what privacy is to Man".

A theory:

The ones who were put in charge of keeping the brake on secrets getting out / censorship / burning libraries and "heretics" have now been corrupted by power to such an extent that they are losing control and can no longer get the masses to be afraid (fear being prime means of control). Playing devil's advocate, this may have historically been justified and sanctioned from higher levels to (apparently) keep another Atlantis type scenario from occurring - on the one hand repressing energies that may cause a slip down to base nature and on the other hand keeping man from awakening to Power before awakening to Oneness / Love.

The unveiling of mysteries is irrepressible - popping up in all forms of art, in science, in mystical experience, and in inner initiation / contact.
Re-watching fantasy and Sci-Fi movies, the latest "mystery" type tv series, the flood of irritating vampire shows (undying, fast healing, etc. etc.), and factual "conspiracy theories" many secrets are hidden in full view for those who are interested in seeing.

Thinking that secrets are a two edged sword. When higher wisdom is communicated to / discovered by someone, discretion is required when one does not fully know how information would impact others. Any witheld information (that may be harmful) then becomes a secret. When secrets are unduely withheld to boost power / personal ego / control over others, they act to cut those unworthy of their keeping off from their original source. .

Lunsola
01-28-2014, 12:54 PM
So my question to you, Alchemists, is: do you keep your work a secret from those around you, and for what reasons?


I don't really bother to be honest. If someones around and I feel the need to do some lab work I just do it. Most ignore it or ask a few simple questions to which I answer and its like it just slips from one ear to another with no interest at all. I've actually offered people close to me or even around me chances to take medicines I have made. I've also offered to give them instructions on principles and benefits. No one really has much interest, not that it's been that many.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't always so carefree. At first I was one of those real secretive types and wouldn't let any of my friends/family watch me do things but after seeing they just don't care or have zero interest I just ignore them. They never even speak to me about it. If it's mentioned it has to be brought up by me and then they lose interest fast usually changing the subject. I've actually even brought it up again after they changed the subject to which they will say something like "oh, okay." then go right back to changing the subject again. It's like some people just aren't drawn to the art, the "secrets" really do keep themselves.

Secrecy IMO just doesn't work. No one can hold all the secrets to themselves forever. They just come out naturally, people discover things on their own sometimes even if other humans don't help them. It's just wasted effort trying to conceal things.

Dev is right, discretion is the right way. Some people just aren't ready to handle some things. Not that it needs to be said but there are risks in alchemy, things can explode, poisons can be made, time can be wasted for some who can not comprehend, and plenty of other things. It's a world of mazes and traps to some. I did well for a long time but eventually did have a lab accident where some hot glass shattered and hit my leg because I was being careless. Thankfully it wasn't serious but something happens to everyone at some point. Most get better in time and learn from their mistakes but some unlucky people are stuck with the consequences of pursuing the art without proper wisdom.

Another part of discretion that I adhere to would be leaving out recipes or guides for the art. If I had been given such things when I started then I would have did the same thing other alchemists would have done. Maybe I would have never created some of the beautiful things that are in my metal work thread. Of course I would have still picked up on principles but it wouldn't have been the same, it wouldn't have been as beautiful. It wouldn't have been art. It's one of the main reasons I support people who say learn the principles. They're all over the internet, books, nature, everywhere. So that people might learn those and create their own beautiful creations. Recipes or guidelines in this sense are not an advancement to others but ultimately holding them back. In what way? In their imagination or creativity, the true inspirations of art in alchemy and anything else.

Of course for many faithful seekers they will mature and develop properly as they become ready for these things and will acquire them when they are ready. So of course we might as well help them when the time comes. Thankfully in today's world with the internet, tons of books, and everything there's no shortage of resources. Materials, labs, setups are even easier to come by, not that an adept alchemist would need them. I'm just saying for most of us on here it couldn't be a better time to be learning the art, well so far at least. Who knows what things will be like in the future.

Eshai
01-29-2014, 09:23 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Personally, I find it surprising people are not interested in alchemy (though I am clearly biased). "So neglect becomes our ally." (Count of Monte Cristo)

But I should not be surprised. The other day I was at a gathering of friends around the fire, and as we were talking, people were more than willing to share what they knew... but so unwilling to get into subjects they weren't familiar with. And I found myself getting caught up in this same mentality. Simply afraid of stepping out on a limb where someone else has more knowledge/control.

What I am getting at is that perhaps people simply ignore what they do not understand, because from their point of view it is truly insignificant. And perhaps they readily discount what you might know because it would mean they would have to metaphorically bow down to your experience. It would be a slam to their own ego.

Interesting to think about.

Kiorionis
02-10-2014, 04:31 AM
Hello Illen :)


Over the many years, I have interacted with literally many hundreds of people interested in Alchemy, and of those, I've only found a very small handful whose intentions are sincere. And of those, I can count on only a few fingers those who are primarily interested in the theory, philosophy and esoterics/hermetics behind Alchemy, before they are properly prepared for the lab practice. You only have to look at the huge library of books on Alchemy to see how few even discuss the theory and esoterics/hermetics, and of those almost all do not even approach it correctly, in my opinion.

I'm curious how you would approach a theoretical work on Alchemy? Or at least your idea of a 'proper' approach. I've written philosophical papers for college classes, and the approach to those was one of arguing hypothetical situations through a logical flow of premises to match a conclusion. In the end I think this is a terrible approach, because hypothetical situations can be thought up to fit any relative truth. I suppose that's the only way I'm familiar with, and it'd be nice to hear your thoughts on it.

Illen A. Cluf
02-10-2014, 05:35 AM
Hello Illen :)



I'm curious how you would approach a theoretical work on Alchemy? Or at least your idea of a 'proper' approach. I've written philosophical papers for college classes, and the approach to those was one of arguing hypothetical situations through a logical flow of premises to match a conclusion. In the end I think this is a terrible approach, because hypothetical situations can be thought up to fit any relative truth. I suppose that's the only way I'm familiar with, and it'd be nice to hear your thoughts on it.

Hello Kio,

That's an excellent question, and one I have thought long about and struggled with. There appear to be several "levels" of theory. The most obvious level that most alchemists write about, is the one that discusses the various "processes" of Nature - all relating to the operations that one would perform in a lab, such as distillation, putrefaction, sublimation, etc. They talk about the action of the sun, the wind, the rain cycle, the four seasons, the springing forth of plant life in the Spring, the flowering and fruiting of the plants, the rotting in the fall, and the dormant stage in the winter. Then they discuss coupling of male and female and seeds and semen at great length, as well as the four conditions - hot, cold, dry and wet.

Then they drop down another level and talk about the matter, soul and spirit, and how they relate to each other. Then they talk more deeply about the generation of matter - plant, animal and even mineral, and how the spirit interacts with matter. All this can be readily set down in a classical philosophical fashion as you have suggested.

But at a more subconscious level, they introduce subtle trigger words/symbols that set the inner mind in motion in a way that language cannot properly accomplish but only hint at. This is accomplished either in words, allegories or even pictures/sketches. This is the part that cannot be easily set down in a traditional philosophical way, and which constitutes the more mysterious esoteric/hermetic aspect of Alchemy. I think Fulcanelli referred to it as the "language of the birds".

I could probably come up with a paragraph quotation to exemplify this, but out of context, and without the prior study of many other such examples, it may not convey the right sense and defeat my purpose of explanation. As I mentioned earlier, I know of no text that deals specifically with this, and likely for a good reason. It is sprinkled in pieces throughout many treatises.

Perhaps if you read the following, about the "Great Mystery", you might get an inner stirring, or a hint of what I'm referring to:

"The Philosophy Addressed to the Athenians" by Paracelsus.

Oddly, it's a work that I've rarely, if ever, seen mentioned, but in my opinion, it's of great importance, and which perhaps goes much further than most in this direction.

Illen

Krisztian
02-10-2014, 04:07 PM
The simple answer to that is, you take 'tuition' with an initiated alchemist who teaches the inner alchemy via initiations. Once, that inner illumination is achieved, the laboratory work follows.

In the Western world, more like modern, people simply are after the immediate gratifications, which eventually leads no where. So people tend to play around with laboratory side of the coin, skipping the inner one. Their knowledge tends to be only of reading, books - intellectual.

If you belong to an 'understream', a Hermetic group, an egregore, all that is straight forward.

Kiorionis
02-12-2014, 03:34 AM
But at a more subconscious level, they introduce subtle trigger words/symbols that set the inner mind in motion in a way that language cannot properly accomplish but only hint at. This is accomplished either in words, allegories or even pictures/sketches. This is the part that cannot be easily set down in a traditional philosophical way, and which constitutes the more mysterious esoteric/hermetic aspect of Alchemy. I think Fulcanelli referred to it as the "language of the birds".

This 'language of the birds', and the approach in general, sounds similar to how I was taught to read poetry (one of the best classes I ever took). First to look at the title and subject, the situations presented, the tone the author uses as well as the context, allusions, sound and rhythm, divisions, order and forms... to name a few. Adds a new dimension to my understanding of Hermetic Vision as well.

I'm assuming the same sort of Hermetic Vision, or Language Skills could be developed through the contemplation of good music.




Perhaps if you read the following, about the "Great Mystery", you might get an inner stirring, or a hint of what I'm referring to:

"The Philosophy Addressed to the Athenians" by Paracelsus.

Oddly, it's a work that I've rarely, if ever, seen mentioned, but in my opinion, it's of great importance, and which perhaps goes much further than most in this direction.

Illen

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I own a large book of writtings by Paracelsus, but it's difficult to find anything relevant in it without having to read from cover to cover... and turns out his philosophy Addressed to the Athenians is near the end :p

Illen A. Cluf
02-12-2014, 09:51 PM
This 'language of the birds', and the approach in general, sounds similar to how I was taught to read poetry (one of the best classes I ever took). First to look at the title and subject, the situations presented, the tone the author uses as well as the context, allusions, sound and rhythm, divisions, order and forms... to name a few. Adds a new dimension to my understanding of Hermetic Vision as well.

I'm assuming the same sort of Hermetic Vision, or Language Skills could be developed through the contemplation of good music.

Yes, I agree. I think that Alchemy is only one of many pathways to esoteric understanding. The Kabbalah has often been mentioned as another example. It is written in poetry, in allegorical writing, in music, and in everything that makes us mediate on the greater wonders. There is some music that always sends me into a whole other world. For example Beethoven's fourth piano concerto, or Mozart's 21st piano concerto.

But I think the thread here is more about traditional hermetic initiation.


Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I own a large book of writtings by Paracelsus, but it's difficult to find anything relevant in it without having to read from cover to cover... and turns out his philosophy Addressed to the Athenians is near the end :p

Some say that he may not have written this particular writing, but it doesn't really matter since in any case it is written by someone who knows Paracelsus' theories well, likely a student of his works. So it reflects a theory of Alchemy based on a deep understanding of Alchemy at that time.

It seems to be based on another of Paracelsus' writings: "Concerning the Generation of the Elements", which is generally agreed to have been written by him. That is another writing that is certainly worth reflecting on.

Jerry
02-12-2014, 11:36 PM
I own a large book of writtings by Paracelsus, but it's difficult to find anything relevant in it without having to read from cover to cover[...]

The only thing of importance in Paracelsus’ writings is the statement under the heading Of the Arcanum of the Philosophers Stone in the Fifth Book of his Archidoxis:

“I am not an Author or Teacher of that Philosophers Stone that is so diversly described by others; nor am a Practitioner thereof, much less a Searcher therein, and so should speak therof from Hear-say, or Writing; Whereas therefore I have no certainty thereof, I will leave that Process, and prosecute my own […].”

In other words Paracelsus made up his own Alchemy using his definitions of Mercury, Sulfur, and Salt because he never understood what Alchemy meant. And the following statement :

“Therefore, learn Alchemiam, otherwise
called Spagyria, which teaches you to
separate the false from the true.”
__Paracelsus_

Is false because Alchemy is not Spagyrics!

Awani
02-12-2014, 11:46 PM
Paracelsus was beyond the petty squabbles of alchemists... IMO he was more interested in Nature and its healing qualities than anything else.

Also it is wrong to claim that something is not alchemy. Everything is alchemy. Spagyrics employ alchemical procedures, but even if we ignore this fact alchemy - IMO- is about transformation/change/metamorphosis... alchemy is the art of life.

Of course if we look at alchemy from the practical perspective or the scholar perspective what I am saying is wrong... but I have never put much faith in the 'only'-practical or the 'only'-scholar approach to any subject matter.

:cool:

Illen A. Cluf
02-13-2014, 12:42 AM
In other words Paracelsus made up his own Alchemy using his definitions of Mercury, Sulfur, and Salt because he never understood what Alchemy meant. And the following statement :


If you read the larger context, what he said was that he did not really follow the Philosophers Stone as "so diveresly described by others", and so proceeded to discover it based on his own reflection, experimentation, and observation. He was likely as disappointed with the many false and delusional claims and contradictions as we are today, and so decided not to waste any time trying to follow or understand any of those other approaches, but rather to discover the path by himself. He went on to say:

"I will leave that process and pursue my own, as being that which has been found out by me through use and practical experiment".

Thus I don't understand why you say that the rest of his writings would not be of importance.

Jerry
02-13-2014, 07:28 PM
He went on to say:
I will leave that process and pursue my own, as being that which has been found out by me through use and practical experiment".

And to continue this run on sentence because the printer ran out of periods or the women had them all:

“:And I call it the Stone of the Philosophers, because is so tingeth the bodies of men in such a manner, as they write of theirs. But mine is not prepared according to their Process; for we mean not it; […].” Paracelsus His Archidoxis, Englished by J. H. Oxon, 1663


If you read the larger context, what he said was that he did not really follow the Philosophers Stone as "so diveresly described by others", and so proceeded to discover it based on his own reflection, experimentation, and observation.

How does Paracelsus know what “it” is, since he does not search or discover what “it” means? If he doesn’t know the basis for the Philosopher’s Stone, how can he honestly state that he has an alternative path to the same end?


He was likely as disappointed with the many false and delusional claims and contradictions as we are today, and so decided not to waste any time trying to follow or understand any of those other approaches, but rather to discover the path by himself.

And what specifically are those false and delusional claims?


Thus I don't understand why you say that the rest of his writings would not be of importance.

If Paracelsus would have stated that he has some familiarity with the Philosopher’s Stone then he could establish some cause and effect relationship, but he does not. Nothing in his writings seems to indicate that he has any knowledge pertaining to Alchemy. His solvent for making various tinctures is based on ethyl alcohol made from wine. The true Spiritus Vini Philosophici is not only an extractive solvent but it also radically alters the chemical composition and may be more related to Das Acetone of Becker. Since Paracelsus didn’t want to waste time and burn any brain cells following other (correct) approaches, he just invented his own Alchemy and compared it to Spagyrics.

Illen A. Cluf
02-14-2014, 12:13 AM
And to continue this run on sentence because the printer ran out of periods or the women had them all:

We can go on forever like this, but the key phrase is:

""I will leave that process and pursue my own, as being that which has been found by me through use and practical experiment".


How does Paracelsus know what “it” is, since he does not search or discover what “it” means? If he doesn’t know the basis for the Philosopher’s Stone, how can he honestly state that he has an alternative path to the same end?

I don't think he's saying that he doesn't know the basis for it, he's just saying that it is so "diffierently described by others" that he has decided to find out for himself "through use and practical experiment".


And what specifically are those false and delusional claims?

He doesn't specifically identify them. He just says that they are "differently described by others". If they are all so very different, then they obviously can't all be legitimate. Almost all, at least, have to be false.


If Paracelsus would have stated that he has some familiarity with the Philosopher’s Stone then he could establish some cause and effect relationship, but he does not. Nothing in his writings seems to indicate that he has any knowledge pertaining to Alchemy. His solvent for making various tinctures is based on ethyl alcohol made from wine. The true Spiritus Vini Philosophici is not only an extractive solvent but it also radically alters the chemical composition and may be more related to Das Acetone of Becker. Since Paracelsus didn’t want to waste time and burn any brain cells following other (correct) approaches, he just invented his own Alchemy and compared it to Spagyrics.

He's very familiar with the Philosophers Stone, as he defines it. Perhaps he doesn't 'reinvent' Alchemy, but rather 'rediscovers' it.

Jerry
02-14-2014, 01:00 AM
Perhaps he doesn't 'reinvent' Alchemy, but rather 'rediscovers' it.

Okay, I understand.

theFool
02-15-2014, 06:54 PM
Well, this is very disappointing. Are you sure nobody has completed the great work here? Actually you wrote “I guess”, that means you are not sure, so there is still some little hope left. ;) Yes, I wrote: "I guess few or none has completed the Work"; so, there is some hope left :)


Even if there is a real adept here, he would not share his knowledge with me? It is "extremely unlikely" :) They like to hide in their caves, or their celestial palaces away from common mortals..


What more, “there is no recipe for The Philosopher's stone"! "You will transmute nothing if you haven't transmuted yourself" said Paracelsus. He was absolutely right! Even if someone gives you a step by step picture guide of the path he followed, you will fail if you don't have the maturity and level of understanding required. It is like trying to build a rocket by reading the blueprints only. Ok, they will help you, but you have to discover the theory behind them and acquire the actual skills needed by yourself.



Ohh maaan… you may be right, but then what am I doing here? What others are doing here? Wasting time and effort? Oh, come on, we are not a mass of helpless sheep waiting desperately the recipe from the adept's lips. We are here to work together, learn, experience and thus mature ourselves. And when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.


Or hoping that despite the non-existence of the stone recipe, one might just make it by accident or miracle? The RAMS library of books is full of recipes. Go try them until you get satisfied (at least that is what I was doing). I see now that the recipe has to be discovered by you and it will be your unique, personal path. Not by accident. By miracle? Hm, maybe, but only after a lot of work.



OK, so Leo claimed that he has made it, and it worked. He has also given the recipes he used to make it. Did he cheat people, and actually lied about all this? Well, I dont know, I haven't tried his recipes. Sometimes we can cheat ourselves by our erroneous beliefs, not on purpose. Also, keep in mind that there are many other inferior "gems" or "particulars" that Alchemy (better word here would be Spageria, or Archemy) can offer.



I see he is banned. Was this the reason for his banning?

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3570-Re-Banned-members

ChiNamo
02-16-2014, 06:44 PM
"You will transmute nothing if you haven't transmuted yourself" said Paracelsus.


If this is true, it would confirm one of my theories about the requirements for success in making the stone. I will explain this a bit later, but let’s figure out some probabilities first.

There are three possibilities.
1. The recipe for making the stone has been given by at least one alchemist in full without omissions (if you decode it correctly with the jargon used in alchemy). The reason for unsuccess is that the experimenter didn’t transmute himself. In this case Paracelsus’ quote is correct.
2. The above claim of Paracelsus is false, and anybody could make the stone if he would know the exact and correct recipe, just like in chemistry. This would make alchemy a hidden science. With other words, it is science because it is repeatable by anyone regardless of his personal spiritual development; and it is hidden because the true, full recipe has not been revealed to the public (to us).
3. The combination of the above two, ie. the true, full recipe has not been revealed, but at the same time it would work anyway only for those who have transmuted themselves.

Let’s estimate the probabilities of these options.
It is obvious why unsuccessful alchemists would write books. They have not made it, but spent their whole life (and wealth) in futile aspiration. In their desperate need for success they write recipes, books which appear as great works, to create at least an illusion of success. Earning the admiration of their peers (and perhaps cheating some money out of them) gives them some solace and compensation. I am convinced that many of the alchemical writings belong to this category.

But why would a true adept (who has successfully made the stone) want to write a book about it? He has got plenty of money by making gold. He has attained health, peace of mind and happiness as well, due to success of his highest aspiration and perhaps due to spiritual elevation. He will live long, but not forever. When he becomes aware of his approaching death he feels it would be a big waste if his whole life’s work would disappear with him. He feels an urge to transfer it to someone and make his achievement and name “immortal”. We can conclude that there is a valid reason, or motivation for a true publication.

1. If the above first case is true and the quotation of Paracelsus is correct, then there would be no reason for a true adept to obscure his published recipe, hide its true meaning behind secret jargon, make it incomplete or in any way false. Everybody would be unsuccessful in reproducing it anyway, except those who have transmuted themselves. They are the targeted recipients so everything is fine. In this case we would have to consider a potential original recipe as being a quite straightforward and “vulgar” description of the process. Our main task would consist in transmuting ourselves first and then just perform the recipe as described.

For this option to be true it is an absolute necessity, that the evil rulers should have somehow missed the opportunity to remove the original manuscript from circulation, and replace it with a false one that is similar to the original, but which would never lead to success. On the logic of “Just in case… you know, we should make sure nobody succeeds”.

2. If the second option is true, then it would be imperative for the adept to at least hide the recipe’s true meaning, otherwise the evil oppressors of the people would use it to enslave everybody even more than they already were at the time.

Or even wiser, not to publish it at all. Why not? Because it is a faulty logic to assume that only the “worthy”, spiritually elevated, and good at heart people would be able to decipher its true meaning. If the adept was truly enlightened he should have realized this, and acted accordingly. Whenever a powerful weapon or source of wealth is discovered by anyone and revealed, it will end up in the hands of the most greedy, aggressive, and evil on this planet in no time. Then they will use it to suppress the population. If he did not understand this, then his spiritual enlightenment was lacking, and his stone is of not much spiritual value. It is not really worth chasing it trough a lifetime of effort.

Well… let’s not beat around the bush, but state it clearly for everyone to understand: in this second case it actually makes no sense even to write an incomplete, or obscured, coded recipe, thinking that the worthy will have some divine insight and will be the only ones able to decipher it. If the person has “transmuted himself” to a level that he has got the divine insight, he has no need for any stone and any recipe. Just like the yogis and spiritual masters of the past reached divine insight and their destination without alchemy. Or if this would still help, he could just “download” the correct recipe from the INNERnet and it would appear as if he has discovered it by his own ingenuity.

On the other hand, if divine insight would not be necessary, but the coded recipe could be deciphered by sharp intelligence, learning the symbolism of alchemy, and patiently trying all possible variations, then again the most evil and greedy would be the first to make it, and then make sure others would not. The most evil has got the most power in society in the form of money and resources. They can buy the most intelligent people to do the thinking and experimentation for them. They can also accelerate the process by employing not only one, but a small army of such experimenter alchemists. This way they can try all the possible combinations in few years that would take many lifetimes for a single person. Now, how can a single “worthy” individual - no matter how intelligent and learned in alchemical symbolism - compete with such power and win?
Again, a truly enlightened adept should have realized this, and just don’t publish any recipe.

OK then, would it make sense for him to publish a false recipe instead to waste the time and resources of the evil, in case they would attempt to decipher it? I don’t think so. Because the innocent and the worthy would be mislead by it, and the collective waste and damage would be much greater than that caused to the evil ones.

3. The third option would also make sense. Originally the adept publishes an unobscured and full recipe according to the first option. The evil rulers try to make it unsuccessfully, but since they are not ignorant idiots but intelligent people, they understand the above quote of Paracelsus and take it seriously. They are aware that they lack the spiritual development necessary for the success, but they also want to make sure that the deserving, elevated people should not make the stone either. It is a threat to their rule and power.

The solution is easy: hide the original genuine recipe and publish in its place a falsified one that is so much messed up, that it would be a menace instead of help to any alchemist. Wait, let’s step up the efficiency a notch, and publish innumerable different false recipes that give the experimenter a feeling of good sense, and practical success in deriving the precursors or specific stages of the process. Let’s add the dictum to the book or recipe, that if it does not succeed for the first trial, all you need to do is just to try it over and over again. Those who have what it takes, the unbreaking perseverance, and put sufficient effort into it will be successful. Actually… why not requote the claim of Paracelsus, and put the blame for the unsuccess on the experimenter’s lack of spiritual development? Now this really puts up the crown on the monster of deception. Isn’t it?

Perhaps some of you now think that I have written a short Sherlock Holmes type novel here, and nothing of this could really happen in reality. Let me assure you that based on the information I have collected from the internet about the state of the world, about how the human mind and society really works, the last third option is the most probable case. The reality is much more fantastic, and often more unbelievable than the most imaginative sci-fi writer could ever make up.

To summarize and boil it all down to its essence: our only hope for success in making the “Philosopher’s Stone” is the first case. A miracle has happened, the original, genuine recipe has not been falsified, and it is publicly available. The “transmute yourself” requirement is not about reaching significant spiritual development, where one would have access to all knowledge and find the way of making the stone on his own. It would be sufficient to purify the body and mind somewhat, which means: eliminate unwanted things, and accumulate other substances in the body that are indispensable for the transmutation. This purification doesn’t happen automatically by living a “vulgar” life, a special “spiritual” discipline is necessary.

After recognizing which one of the countless recipes might be the genuine, the hardest task we would have to accomplish is transmute ourselves as Paracelsus mentioned, and just make the stone using the recipe. Let’s discuss the self-transmutation and my theory about the requirement of success later.




Oh, come on, we are not a mass of helpless sheep waiting desperately the recipe from the adept's lips. We are here to work together, learn, experience and thus mature ourselves. And when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
The RAMS library of books is full of recipes. Go try them until you get satisfied (at least that is what I was doing).

It was you who mentioned that “there is no recipe for "The Philosopher's stone"” not me. I am fully aware that the RAMS library of books is full of recipes. There is a 12 GB folder on my hard drive containing RAMS literature. You may realize of how little help it is to advice me to try them all until I get completely frustrated. ;)

theFool
02-16-2014, 08:57 PM
With simple words, if you make it possible for me to realize that a shill has been banned who posted bogus experiments, recipes, and lies, you would do me a great service, I would not need to waste weeks of continuous readings of useless posts. Some usual reasons for which someone might get banned are the usage of vulgar language, personal attacks, multiple accounts.. We will not ban someone for his recipes and experiments. He has the right of having his own opinion, mistaken or not. As long as he does not force it on others violating the rules and guidelines it is ok. We cannot judge if Leo's recipes and experiments are mistaken or not, sorry.

From what I remember Leo had his own forum here: http://www.houseleoretilus.org/activity.php . You can try to contact him and good luck.

ChiNamo
02-17-2014, 04:34 PM
Also in Leo's case, well he has been known to create multiple accounts and usually when this happens she/he often refers to Leo... so in a sense anyone that starts talking about Leo is instantly suspected of being Leo. LOL! Beware... ;)


Fair enough, creating multiple accounts and self-promotion via fraud is certainly not the sign of an honest adept. Thus, his claims about his making the Philosopher’s stone can’t be taken seriously. This kind of information is what I was looking for, to help me see in the darkness. :) Thanks for sharing the information.



We will not ban someone for his recipes and experiments. He has the right of having his own opinion, mistaken or not. As long as he does not force it on others violating the rules and guidelines it is ok. We cannot judge if Leo's recipes and experiments are mistaken or not, sorry.


Sure… this is the weakest link in the chain that keeps honest researchers together on the internet. Not being able to tell who’s claim is true, and who is lying (for whatever motive). The same menace plagues the free energy community as well.

Even if you replicate a published recipe (that another member claimed to be a success) and you fail, you dare not publicly conclude that it is a false recipe. You may blame yourself for the lack of your spiritual development.

I would encourage though everybody to share the final test results of his experiments, especially if it was a replication of a process tested earlier by someone else. This is the most valuable part of your sharing; please don’t deny this from the other members!

If we accept the dictum of Paracelsus that one can succeed only if he has transmuted himself first, then that corrodes the value of online sharing next to nothing. Even if a member here really makes the Philosopher’s Stone, and honestly shares the method in full… nobody else will be successful in replicating it, unless he has reached the same spiritual level.

Except of course… if the adept also gives his method of transmuting himself that enabled his success. ;) This may be the most important ingredient in the recipes that has not been published in alchemical literature.

The online sharing in its present form is useful though for sharing ideas, and partial techniques of extracting valuable substances and purifying them. Assuming, that one is able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and avoid wasting his efforts on following the shills of disinformation agencies. I assure you that they are present in all public free energy and alchemy forums. They consider themselves to be the gate keepers, and their job is to keep us “sheep” in the flock, away from freedom. (Of course, we do not consider ourselves to be sheep, but they treat us as such nevertheless). Ultimately everybody is on his own if he wants to discover the method of making the Stone.



From what I remember Leo had his own forum here: http://www.houseleoretilus.org/activity.php . You can try to contact him and good luck.

Thanks, it wouldn’t be of much use. Should I ask him: “hey buddy, is it really true what you have posted on this forum?” If I could not trust the truthfulness of his claims here, how could I trust in the truthfulness of his response to such question?

Awani
02-17-2014, 04:44 PM
In my opinion the most important truth about alchemy is that NO ONE can tell you how to do it. If you try to avoid the journey and just follow other peoples recepies and experiments you will probably/mostly fail. The truth you will discover in direct experience is the only truth you should follow. This goes for practical alchemy but it is even MORE true concerning spiritual alchemy which can only happen internally.

Advice and suggestions are valid of course, but in the end only YOU can go on the journey.

The forums is a way to debate, discuss and share these experiences. It will never be a 'quick fix' or a 'recipe database'. That is why people who claim to be Adepts, Masters or Gurus are wrong by default as an expert on alchemy is only an expert on his/her personal alchemical experiences.

If I am wrong then the magic recipes would already be publicly known. Such a secret would never be possible to keep fully in the dark.

So in short: go your own way, other peoples paths are WRONG as they are not yours

:cool:

Awani
02-17-2014, 08:34 PM
Even if a member here really makes the Philosopher’s Stone, and honestly shares the method in full… nobody else will be successful in replicating it, unless he has reached the same spiritual level.

Exactly.

:cool:

Andro
04-29-2016, 03:36 PM
Last night I started to feel physically week and off-balance. Strange pains all over my body, dizziness, almost like an 'anxiety attack' of sorts. I went to bed but couldn't really sleep.

Suddenly I heard a voice in my head. Not just a 'thought of a voice', but an actual voice, like someone talking into my ear/head. It was an androgynous sounding voice, not really male or female - couldn't really tell.

The voice gave me a simple message, saying that "the Universal Stone can be had in only 3 days and that I already possess the knowledge, but it's deeply buried inside me, just as it is in quite a few other people as well."

Then, the voice disappeared. I could hardly sleep all night and I'm making up for it today, taking nap after nap (I'm typing this between naps).

I feel somewhat better now, not 100% yet.

Highly unusual, not to mention unexpected.

No idea what to make of it except wait and see what's next.

Thought I'd share...

Illen A. Cluf
04-29-2016, 04:46 PM
The voice gave me a simple message, saying that "the Universal Stone can be had in only 3 days and that I already possess the knowledge, but it's deeply buried inside me, just as it is in quite a few other people as well."


I have read in several different texts that the Stone can indeed be made (by the "Dry way") in a few days, ranging from about 3 days to a week. It's also well known that it involves an androgynous pair. I think that the answer to what this physical pair should be, should already be known to many of us, but almost never fully comprehended.

It's in our basic Nature and tradition as being either Male or Female (or as being either 'this' or 'that' on just about everything - politics is a perfect example) to often really understand only half of a pair until we finally discover the meaning of conjunction. If you are Androgynus it should simplify matters (pun intended). That's what I think the dream meant.

Kiorionis
04-29-2016, 06:25 PM
Curious that your experience happened just about 40 days after the spring equinox, Andro.

And just for clarification, did it seem like the voice was saying the Stone can be had in three days from now, on May 2nd? Or three days, beginning at any time?

Salazius
04-29-2016, 06:35 PM
...or three days of work, or coction ... or symbolic days ?

Anyway, good idea to share.

I had also a strong alchemical dream I cannot share here unfortunately, but giving me a very clear and practical method.

It seems these days are dreamy/teaching days.

Andro
04-29-2016, 07:42 PM
Not 3 days from now, just 3 days.

And not symbolic.

This 'event' was precluded by three lucid dreams in the 3 previous nights. (I didn't mention that before)

First dream was strangely of a somewhat sexual nature, which is strange to me, because I haven't had such dreams for years. I wasn't even directly involved or aroused, just a by-standing observer.

Second dream was about politics and war between the East and the West.

Third dream involved me trusting the 'wrong' people and being severely betrayed.

Those 3 dreams happened on three consecutive nights, before the night with 'the voice'.

Before and during this sequence, I asked every night before sleep to be initiated and wholly transmuted into UN-created Spirit and that I am ready and willing to renounce everything else, everything 'created', everything that is 'Terra Damnata'. That's an abbreviation of my entire pre-sleep affirmation, but it sums it up.

So, that's the longer version of my last 4 days and nights. I suspect it may not be over yet, but I have no expectations. I'll just keep 'asking' the same, every night before sleep.

It's a rather intense period for me altogether.

thoth
04-29-2016, 10:49 PM
Here's a quick idea



First dream was strangely of a somewhat sexual nature, which is strange to me, because I haven't had such dreams for years. I wasn't even directly involved or aroused, just a by-standing observer.

Maybe the observer/reader (theoretical) to become the participant (more Lab practical)


Second dream was about politics and war between the East and the West.

The conflict between the two polarities - 2 dragons/ corsican hound vs armenian dog/above vs below/ etc.


Third dream involved me trusting the 'wrong' people and being severely betrayed.
The wrong people may be the wrong path
Just an idea - hope its not too simplistic

I have been having some very strange dreams over last week. Almost what I imagine a DMT experience would be like.
I wonder is it possible to experience a DMT trip BEFORE, you consume it. It does have some connection with time after all ......

Kiorionis
04-30-2016, 01:02 AM
Curious. Did you ever read the book I sent you, Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality?



First dream was strangely of a somewhat sexual nature, which is strange to me, because I haven't had such dreams for years. I wasn't even directly involved or aroused, just a by-standing observer.

-----------

Something unusual must be in the air.

Also good to see you back online thoth :)

Ghislain
04-30-2016, 04:51 AM
I wonder is it possible to experience a DMT trip BEFORE, you consume it. It does have some connection with time after all ......

I think that is quite possible.

Ghislain

Andro
04-30-2016, 06:30 AM
I not a big fan of interpreting dreams. I generally think they should just be experienced. Their work and imprint is done with or without our rationalizations. IMO.

However... (as they say in England) ...

It could be that the observing of the sexual scenario could mean to just allow the energies to 'fuck themselves', with detachment and without active participation/interference. It's not that I'm not involved with lab work, it's just that my experiments are very simple in nature and don't require much involvement on my part.

It was similar in the 'war/east-west' dream. I was observing, not participating. I saw Stalin and Eisenhower in that dream, BTW. I'm not even asking why :)

The third dream (involving the 'betrayal') had me a bit more active. The last scene was with myself and my associates being stranded on a island in the middle of the ocean.

I won't go into more detail, but I think the point those dreams were (maybe) trying to make is to basically 'let things be' and arrange themselves by themselves, with everything leading to the last dream with the voice saying what it said.

I would say they are all connected somehow, ultimately leading to the 'information' that 'the stone can be had in 3 days', apparently by not interfering with natural process and basically avoid adding unnecessary complications and personal attachment.

Awani
04-30-2016, 08:00 AM
...3 days from now...

That would have been nice.

Terra Damnata

LOL. ;)


I wonder is it possible to experience a DMT trip BEFORE, you consume it. It does have some connection with time after all ......

Yes. But that goes for any sacred medicine. Once the decision to do it is made it begins. Although I have never had a dream as novel and alien as as dmt trip.

:cool:

Andro
04-30-2016, 08:26 AM
I have been having some very strange dreams over last week. Almost what I imagine a DMT experience would be like.
I wonder is it possible to experience a DMT trip BEFORE, you consume it. It does have some connection with time after all ......

It seems like Godwin's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) is still in action, but 'Hitler' has been replaced with 'DMT' :)

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi. Or the law is evolving.

JinRaTensei
04-30-2016, 10:41 AM
Andro very interesting and not sure if this can inspire any thoughts useful to you but I also had a very strange night yesterday,also with the symbolism of 3 and not the stone but the essence of life and I did not have 3 consecutive lucid dreams but 3 nights of insomnia and sleeplessness following up to yesterday.

to sum my experience up I saw one leaf turning into 3 leaves of a plant and I saw one flame splitting into 3 smaller flames. the leaves gave me the impression that everything in this material reality needs 3 principles or 3 sides to become flesh,just like going from a 2 dimensional painting to an 3 dimensional object.the flame gave me the impression that all that is whole must split into 3 parts to escape the flesh,the 3 principles must be separated from each other again and be made shine/burn on its own and all restrictions of the flesh will be void.

No idea which principles or if this means anything(to you) but I found it rather curious you mentioned your experience with similar symbolism so maybe there is some connection.

Andro
02-25-2017, 01:01 PM
I have (relatively) recently 'heard through the grapevine' about some circulating opinions that I (and possibly some other people here) are 'too mystical' in approaching Alchemy. While I consider my life to be rather magical and relatively more 'anchored' in other realms than in this one, I do feel the need to clarify that my approach to lab alchemy is very much practical and without any 'magical' practices or the likes of such. I'm talking here about practical lab applications, not about personal initiation sequences.

It is even more disturbing to hear about such fabricated allegations, because the fact is that NOBODY knows exactly about the kind of lab work/research that I do. So everything you might have heard about this is just mere speculation and should be regarded as such.

No, it is NOT the 'Methods of Rhoend' (which seem to be mostly borrowed/plagiarized and incomplete, but not entirely invalid), nor is it the 'Methods of GL', nor various 'Solar/Lunar' paths with lenses and mirrors', nor any other 'method' that may have transpired through various channels.

And NO, I have not completed the Universal Stone. Far from it. It might still be a quite a way ahead, if at all. I am in no hurry. But it looks like I'm on the road there - and it looks promising.

Currently, my research and experimentation are geared EXCLUSIVELY towards enhancing and improving my own personal techniques for 'harvesting' or 'collecting' the Materia Prima (the topic of this thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2071-Spiritus-Mundi)) in what I consider to be its purest possible state, in terms of constantly seeking to improve the yield/time ratio and other factors. I have discovered quite a few surprising keys along the way, hopefully with more to come through practical experimentation.

In the past, I have researched other interesting particularities regarding different states of matter and magnetization thereof (or turning/rotating bodies 'inside out', so to speak) - but nowadays I am much more 'one track minded' in my practical work and research.

Quoth Trithemius:


I advise you to pay great attention to the boiling of the Water; do not let your spirit be troubled about things of less importance.Additionally, I hold no grudges over anyone here. In fact, this place and especially a few people here have been extremely helpful with my under/inner-standing of how things work, whether directly or not... But I'm not copying anyone's work - I'm going my own way.

Finally, I suggest not to fall for ANY circulating speculations and/or for various grandiose claims and self-created mythologies that some people like to build around themselves. Over the years, I have found via my own investigations that in most (if not all) cases these are likely red flags indicating some sort of fraud or variation thereof.

Axismundi000
02-25-2017, 02:21 PM
Why on earth should it matter what rumours there are?

Dwellings
02-25-2017, 02:25 PM
----SNIP----

1. What are the sources of "Alchemical" grapevine?

2. You sure about "nobody knows exactly", what about the friend with whom you share everything? ;):cool:

3. Just wondering, you would have probably done with the stone if you proceeded by metallic realm, why do you want to go by this way, don't you consider the joys of being an Adept more important?

Seth-Ra
02-25-2017, 02:30 PM
I have (relatively) recently 'heard through the grapevine' about some circulating opinions that I (and possibly some other people here) are 'too mystical' in approaching Alchemy...

Don't worry Andro, I've heard and gotten the impression that many think I'm "dark"/"evil" or something. Lol not sure what that's about.
Personally, I enjoy your talks and discussions of the Principles (rather than dime-a-dozen recipes), even though our modus operandi are different. :)

Haters gonna hate. ;)



~Seth-Ra / Yishai

Andro
02-25-2017, 02:33 PM
What are the sources of "Alchemical" grapevine?

Not intended to be made public. But (perhaps surprisingly), not people that anyone might 'suspect'.


what about the friend with whom you share everything? ;):cool:

Who would this friend be? There isn't one. At least not one who is also a practicing Alchemist...


you would have probably done with the stone if you proceeded by metallic realm

IF we want to use a base material, I will elaborate elsewhere (on a different thread) about something incredibly richer in 'Secret Fire' than anything the metallic/mineral realm has to offer.


don't you consider the joys of being an Adept more important?

I don't weigh it in such terms. There seems to be much more to this process than merely 'ingesting the stone'.
One would have to be both predisposed and prepared, at least mentally, on multiple levels.
In this context, on a practical/lab level, preparing the Universal Alkahest may be considered even more valuable than The Stone itself.
Again, I will elaborate more on my views on this elsewhere.


Why on earth should it matter what rumours there are?

It most likely shouldn't matter to you. The referred post nevertheless needed to be written for a variety of reasons.


------------------------------------------------------

Axismundi000
02-25-2017, 03:58 PM
Not intended to be made public. But (perhaps surprisingly), not people that anyone might 'suspect............

It most likely shouldn't matter to you. The referred post nevertheless needed to be written for a variety of reasons.


------------------------------------------------------

This sounds absurd, why on earth should it matter to YOU! It sounds a bit silly 'for a variety of reasons'.

pierre
02-25-2017, 04:12 PM
In the flight towards the light, the darkest parts fall heavily to the ground...

Andro
02-25-2017, 04:16 PM
This sounds absurd, why on earth should it matter to YOU!

It 'matters' to me in the context of my name being connected (behind my back) with several falsehoods (i.e. 'alternative facts') about my alchemical work and research. But I am well within my 'self-jurisdiction' to address/rectify this, at least in a post. And what I posted was about more than just rectifying that issue. If it's absurd to YOU, fine by me.


It sounds a bit silly 'for a variety of reasons'.

I'd be less trigger-happy with words such as 'silly' and 'absurd', especially when not standing in someone else's shoes.

Words are like swords. We should take care, lest we accidentally fall on our own.


Personally, I enjoy your talks and discussions of the Principles (rather than dime-a-dozen recipes), even though our modus operandi are different.

Thank you, Brother.

However, in a way, I am also not entirely without 'fault' in this 'predicament', because most of my practical-related postings have been indeed more focused on archetypes/principles/analogies/etc. My hope was to share my own understanding of what principles I am applying in the lab, rather than discuss 'recipes'.

But this doesn't mean that my practical work is 'mystical' or 'magical'. It's just about increasingly figuring out the "mechanics" of how things work in this area. Having alchemy-related initiatory dreams and non-physical encounters doesn't negate the fact that I am applying in practice what I have learned in those 'altered states'.


In the flight towards the light, the darkest parts fall heavily to the ground...

Indeed. Terra Damnata :)

______________________

I have no further comments on this matter, I have said all I wanted to say.


---------------------------------------------------

zoas23
02-25-2017, 09:11 PM
"Ora et Labora"....

If being "too mystical" was a problem, then I would have a HUGE problem... but I do not think I have one.

My own conclusion is more or less like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cvr3focVF0

elixirmixer
04-03-2017, 09:59 PM
Mod Note: Continued from HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?655-The-Vegetable-Stone...&p=48949#post48949).

Yet in the interest of fixating my mind upon one thing and one thing only, I was merely trying to get a conversation started with someone who actually WANTS to discuss ALCHEMY with ME.

It seems that there is an unwritten , alchemyforums, 'code of conduct', not dis-similar at all I believe to the way that the ancients conducted themselves between each other.

But I must confess, as I have before, that picking and choosing peoples level of instruction based on some false 'sense' of 'where' a student is at, or whether his behaviour is, 'worthy' is sheer ludacris.

It's like everyone on here is either tryin to prove something, or that they must be proved too.

I'm just researching ways that will efficiently heal the masses.

Also, I might add, that alchemy chose me, to dance with her. She befriended me in my youth, she was with me in the cold winters of my adolescence, and she shall grow old in my arms.

For all this pompousness, and additional reading... It seems to have done JaCK in the way of increasing a philosophical standard.

I already know our Mercury, our process, the Hand.

So what is it that should be held back from me? Since it is only a matter of time till I succeed regardless of whether anyone would wish to assist natures work with me.

And then if Nature be so forthcoming to me, and consider me worthy of conversation, then this place be no followers of her, since she opens her doors widely to me, and ye, stand at the doors, wishing to hold them shut.

The spirit that is in me Dev is not of this world, it is not Terra an will not hold to one form, it is not water and will not be moulded, it is not air, and it cannot be wisped away. Nor fire because it never burns out.

My quintessential aspects are from the same place that the stone comes from. The spirit that gives life to all things, gives life to me also.

Whether it be ancient or modern, I see much pompousness and poppycock. Did the ancients heal her? Nature, after she had granted them her finest gifts? Did these modern philosophers, reach out to the poor? And with their great inginuity, save the masses?

No, there is not one here, who can say 'be this, or, be that' for if I were to be anything less than what I am I would most indeed be selling myself short.

Perhaps i feed from the crumbs of this Alchemyforums table. But those who sit at it will slowly pass away, and a generation will come in which they will then look to me for crumbs, yet on that day I will say, "You poor naked wrench, come, sit at my table, eat of my bread, and warm yourself with the Fire of the Philosophers."

No, no, no, Dev. Not conforming (excepted administratively) to this diseased alchemical dogma, that this art is for only the 'special' and 'few' 'initiated ones'.

Or that the group should be 'won over' and convinced of my SALT.

I will prove my salt, and it will be with an epic ruby red crystal that I make from a grapevine. And this is why Dev, I brought this work up before I commenced. So that you will know for sure, that nature is my teacher, and that she is fond of me and my purpose, and that EM need not perform a work to know it. And yet perform it he shall, so that you may know it for yourselves :cool:

My way is more fun Dev, and since when did the ancients say "you can't have any fun" :D


--------------------------------------------------------

Awani
04-03-2017, 10:55 PM
No, no, no, Dev. Not conforming (excepted administratively) to this diseased alchemical dogma, that this art is for only the 'special' and 'few' 'initiated ones'.

You utterly missed my point I think. This is not what I said at all (or anything else you "replied" towards me).

Ok so let me try using a metaphor:

Another man cannot teach you to fuck a woman. He can give you suggestions like; try it doggy style.

In the end the only way that you can master the art of fucking a woman is to fuck women. Right?

That's what I said. :)

Good luck and go forward.

:cool:

elixirmixer
04-03-2017, 11:15 PM
Mod Note: Continued from HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?655-The-Vegetable-Stone...&p=48963#post48963).
_____________

Yes, sorry Dev.

Being the owner of the website, I do sometimes reply to you in broad terms of the entire forum collectively. My apologises for that.

And I agree.

-------------------------------------------------------

Awani
04-03-2017, 11:50 PM
Ok I see. :) Yes, keep in mind that the forum is not an extension of "my belief/path". I am just a drop in this ocean. I own the URL and the license (that those who donate help pay)... but EVERYTHING else is the community.

Alchemy Forums is NOT dev's Alchemy Forums. I'm basically just a sort of groundskeeper or landlord... unlike most forums on alchemy that has some sort of Master with an Agenda... there is no such thing here... apart from the agenda of the simple Rules & Guidelines (which is in place to just keep a nice environment to work in).

If it was not like stated above, I would have banned 90 % of you fuckers for not agreeing with me long ago. LOL.

:cool:

JDP
04-04-2017, 02:34 PM
Yet in the interest of fixating my mind upon one thing and one thing only, I was merely trying to get a conversation started with someone who actually WANTS to discuss ALCHEMY with ME.


It is a request that it is almost guaranteed will fall on deaf ears, because the comparative few who actually discover (through empirical trial & error and comparison with the real "hints/clues" given in the old texts, the only way to actually get anywhere in this subject) something real regarding this subject simply do not share it with others, even less in a public forum, and for very obvious reasons (and no, they have nothing to do with the high moralistic pretensions that some like to conjure up to try to make themselves look in front of others like "terrific" people who are immune to the basic needs and desires of humanity, but really quite simply because of personal advantage & gain: reveal the secret and you "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs"; but of course not all will admit it.) What little you will be able to get from anyone will be simply regurgitations of the worthless gratuitous, vague & fishy claims that unfortunately often come with the "alchemical baggage", mantras like "follow nature", or "one matter only", or "pray to God and see if He lets you in on the secret"; you can safely dispense such unrealistic "advice" to others without any fear that it will really help anyone make the Stone/Elixir, that's why it's so freely given. Picture the situation this way: imagine that you come up with a "method", a "system", to surely get the winning lottery numbers. Now, if people asked you: "let us in on it!" you would obviously refuse to do so, because if you did, you and everyone else in their turn will eventually be basically screwed, as this would quickly ruin the very lottery system where you are getting your gain & advantage from. But if you flatly refused to share your discovery, people would start thinking or accusing you of being "envious", and "greedy" and all sorts of "bad" stuff that everyone seems to be afraid of being branded as. So instead of just telling them "NO!", you tell them things like "do the Humpty Dance and if God likes your performance, He will grant you the winning numbers", or "one ticket only", or "follow the blind guy who sold you the ticket". Of course, you know perfectly well that such absurdities will not allow anyone to discover how you really do it, but plenty of gullible folk out there will believe you, leave you alone and actually try to do those things in a hopeless effort to achieve the goal.

zoas23
04-05-2017, 01:57 AM
Every teacher began as a student. So study... and then teach. No need to look for someone.

When you post photos or comments during the process (or when finished) I am sure some will get suggestions. This is the best way to proceed I think. You will gain more from it. I am not trying to be cryptic or anything. But honestly this is the best "advice". I am sure more hardcore lab-alchemists will agree with me on this.

I doubt you will find many lab-alchemists agreeing with that statement.
Your idea is valid for a lot of areas, but when it comes to the most technical side of alchemy, it isn't.

The HELP of someone with more experience makes a BIG difference and it is often a KEY. This help is rarely given in a public forum, except for somehow vague orientations (a few persons are more generous than others).


Yet in the interest of fixating my mind upon one thing and one thing only, I was merely trying to get a conversation started with someone who actually WANTS to discuss ALCHEMY with ME.

It seems that there is an unwritten , alchemyforums, 'code of conduct', not dis-similar at all I believe to the way that the ancients conducted themselves between each other.

That's another mistake...You won't probably find many persons very eager to discuss ALCHEMY in a very deep way... unless it is one of those who wants to establish a "quid pro quo" relationship (give me a "recipe" and I will exchange it for another). Though I STRONGLY suggest you to avoid the "quid pro quo" guys... you'll end up getting swindled (I saw it happening more than many times).

So... does this mean that NOBODY will talk about alchemy with you in a deep way? Not really. These conversations often take place when there is a FRIENDSHIP that transcends alchemy... a friendship in which "alchemy" is irrelevant. A person who for some reason is "in tune" with you and who wants to talk about life, his dog, the last movie he saw, a book, show you a painting he made, sometimes talk about "nothing", sometimes laugh and fool around... a person who is HAPPY to see you each time... a FRIEND. A relationship BASED on "Alchemy" won't do the trick.

It's not a code of conduct that is specific of Alchemy Forums, but it applies to Alchemy in general.

In most cases a FIREND will not care if you are "advanced" or a "beginner"... such thing does not matter, because the friendship itself does not have "alchemy" as its "center". A friend like that CAN help you (of course, if he knows more than you do)... but if you want to establish an "alchemical friendship".... good luck, but I doubt that something of worth will come out of it.


It is a request that it is almost guaranteed will fall on deaf ears, because the comparative few who actually discover (through empirical trial & error and comparison with the real "hints/clues" given in the old texts, the only way to actually get anywhere in this subject) something real regarding this subject simply do not share it with others, even less in a public forum, and for very obvious reasons (and no, they have nothing to do with the high moralistic pretensions that some like to conjure up to try to make themselves look in front of others like "terrific" people who are immune to the basic needs and desires of humanity, but really quite simply because of personal advantage & gain: reveal the secret and you "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs"; but of course not all will admit it.) What little you will be able to get from anyone will be simply regurgitations of the worthless gratuitous, vague & fishy claims that unfortunately often come with the "alchemical baggage", mantras like "follow nature", or "one matter only", or "pray to God and see if He lets you in on the secret"; you can safely dispense such unrealistic "advice" to others without any fear that it will really help anyone make the Stone/Elixir, that's why it's so freely given.

You are right and wrong.
A lot of people give very valuable information in private and it's not something "new"... As you have said, nobody will give to a stranger the "chicken of the golden eggs"... BUT things change a lot when there is a TRUE FRIENDSHIP, which is not based on "alchemy".

Since you prefer very empirical examples, I will use a very empirical metaphor... if you see a BIG business opportunity, then you will probably NOT publish it in the newspaper, but if you have a GOOD friend, then you will probably share the idea with him just because you like him, because you trust him, because it makes you happy to see him happy and you wish the BEST for him.

So you are RIGHT, but there is an exception to your claims... the exception is called "TRUE FRIENDSHIP".

Axismundi000
04-05-2017, 08:12 AM
Every teacher began as a student. So study... and then teach. No need to look for someone.

When you post photos or comments during the process (or when finished) I am sure some will get suggestions. This is the best way to proceed I think. You will gain more from it. I am not trying to be cryptic or anything. But honestly this is the best "advice". I am sure more hardcore lab-alchemists will agree with me on this.

Also if no one seems to know, then find out for yourself.

:cool:

To my surprise I find myself agreeing here. There are definately parallels between the pursuit of Magic as a discreet discipline and Alchemy as a discreet pursuit. With the emergence of more open magical groups, individuals and orders in the late Victorian period in Britain an new possibility emerged. It became possible for a person to progress in magic much more independantly then before, to progress previously required sucking up to an individual. A lot of 'arse kissing' without knowing if they were genuine or if the group had genuine magical methods was the only way. The current idea that only experienced Alchemists know and they must teach you or you will find it very difficult to make progress is very similar to what used to be the situation in magic. It is I feel just as spurious and abusive as what occurred previously in magic. The fact that I have been told repeatedly and angrily by more then one individual that I will not progress unless I either stop disagreeing with them or give them money indicates the true situation (different individuals). It is felt I suspect that Alchemical info is currently restricted yet in my instance I have already progressed past the level that it was identified I would never reach. I would say that someone entirely new to Hermetics or the occult would still have difficulty which indicates to me that those that seek to restrict are either desperate for money or so narcissistic they pathetically hunger for reverential respect. Alchemy is governed by Universal Hermetic principals and those principals have already been fully identified in other Hermetic disciplines (e.g. Magic) so this 'you must have a human teacher', idea only works on complete Hermetic beginners. It is not 'you must have' it is 'they can help'.

JDP
04-05-2017, 01:57 PM
To my surprise I find myself agreeing here. There are definately parallels between the pursuit of Magic as a discreet discipline and Alchemy as a discreet pursuit. With the emergence of more open magical groups, individuals and orders in the late Victorian period in Britain an new possibility emerged. It became possible for a person to progress in magic much more independantly then before, to progress previously required sucking up to an individual. A lot of 'arse kissing' without knowing if they were genuine or if the group had genuine magical methods was the only way. The current idea that only experienced Alchemists know and they must teach you or you will find it very difficult to make progress is very similar to what used to be the situation in magic. It is I feel just as spurious and abusive as what occurred previously in magic. The fact that I have been told repeatedly and angrily by more then one individual that I will not progress unless I either stop disagreeing with them or give them money indicates the true situation (different individuals). It is felt I suspect that Alchemical info is currently restricted yet in my instance I have already progressed past the level that it was identified I would never reach. I would say that someone entirely new to Hermetics or the occult would still have difficulty which indicates to me that those that seek to restrict are either desperate for money or so narcissistic they pathetically hunger for reverential respect. Alchemy is governed by Universal Hermetic principals and those principals have already been fully identified in other Hermetic disciplines (e.g. Magic) so this 'you must have a human teacher', idea only works on complete Hermetic beginners. It is not 'you must have' it is 'they can help'.

The big flaw in this analogy being that transmutation is very much real, and can be replicated by anyone (provided he is in the know regarding the right operations & substances to work with, whether through his own empirical investigations or is instructed about them by someone else who already knows them), while "magic" is a bunch of extravagant highly improbable & unproven claims, not much different than "Big Foot", UFOs, "Out of Body Experience", ghosts, zombies, vampires, Little Red Riding Hood & the Big Bad Wolf, The Tooth Fairy, "Professional Wrestling" supposedly being "real" and not the blatant farce we all can plainly see it is, etc.

Axismundi000
04-05-2017, 03:54 PM
I understand you are an empiricist JDP and I get the feeling you consider yourself duty-bound to do this whenever you feel necessary. I wish you well in your pursuit of the stone.

Andro
04-05-2017, 05:41 PM
The big flaw in this analogy being that transmutation is very much real, and can be replicated by anyone (provided he is in the know regarding the right operations & substances to work with, whether through his own empirical investigations or is instructed about them by someone else who already knows them), while "magic" is a bunch of extravagant highly improbable & unproven claims, not much different than "Big Foot", UFOs, "Out of Body Experience", ghosts, zombies, vampires, Little Red Riding Hood & the Big Bad Wolf, The Tooth Fairy, "Professional Wrestling" supposedly being "real" and not the blatant farce we all can plainly see it is, etc.

Traditionally, Alchemy is only one part, the PHYSICAL/MATERIAL/TANGIBLE aspect of the 'Hermetic Trinity' (so to speak), the other two generally belonging to the domains of Astrology and Theurgy/Magick.

The Alchemical/Physical aspect is indeed the one that can be empirically 'proven' in the realm of physical matter, even to those who do not possess the ability to access the other (non-physical) planes.

To those who are lacking the skills/ability to access such other planes, the other two aspects can not be 'proven', unless they dedicate the time to proper training and eventually 'prove' those aspects to themselves via direct experience. Until then, those other aspects will most likely seem like extravagant/irrational/unproven 'claims'.

I myself was the 'biggest skeptic of them all' until around age 22, when I started to have my first conscious OBEs. Since then, I have dedicated many years to train myself in accessing and 'navigating' other states of awareness and other planes of 'reality'. A few times I even had the satisfaction to perform shamanic healing work on someone who could provide me with 'before' and 'after' MRI scans. I didn't need the 'proof', but it was nice to see it nevertheless.

It's OK to focus only on the Alchemy part (the physical/material aspect). But I personally really don't see any value in perpetually and relentlessly commenting on matters that one has not had direct personal experience with. There's more to reality than meets the physical senses.

One can CHOOSE to remain confined in the 'box' of 'empirically provable' data, or have the courage to at least consider that the reality spectrum is much 'bigger' than our common 5 physical senses can cover. Even if we look at it 'scientifically' - our physical senses are limited to a rather narrow spectrum of frequencies. Our hearing covers between 20 and 20,000 Hz at best. Our vision covers only a limited bandwidth. Our current tech covers a little more, but it also has its limitations. Perhaps technology will one day 'catch up' with our inherent (but mostly dormant) abilities to experience 'outside the technologically measurable spectrum'.

I wonder if people wonder what lies beyond the limits of the measurable spectrum...

http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/WebResources_13/EMspectrum/em_scale.gif

Awani
04-05-2017, 05:51 PM
...until around age 22, when I started to have my first conscious OBEs...

Prove it to me.*

Just beating JDP to the punch. ;)

:cool:

* by the way I don't need proof... just using satire/irony...

JDP
04-05-2017, 05:55 PM
Prove it to me.*

Just beating JDP to the punch. ;)

:cool:

* by the way I don't need proof... just using satire/irony...

Prove it to us that you are real, "dev", and not just a figment of our collective imagination :)

Andro
04-05-2017, 06:26 PM
Prove it to us that you are real, "dev", and not just a figment of our collective imagination :)

Following the same logic, how can we 'prove' that 'proof' is real and not just a figment of our collective imagination?

What is the provable baseline/point of reference for proving 'proof'? It's axiomatically tied with 'perception' (regardless of how wide or narrow the spectrum), and we can't prove a thing (like perception) by using as a point of reference the very thing we are attempting to prove.

Nothing is real, until empirically proven otherwise! :D

black
04-06-2017, 02:55 AM
Hi JDP

I have been thinking back to the time before I was given proofs, and
a few things stirred in my mind that may be of some help to you

Could you please answer one or two questions.

1 Do you want proof of the metaphysical/paranormal/The Force/spirits/etc.

2 And if you do want proof ... WHY ?

zoas23
04-06-2017, 04:51 AM
Following the same logic, how can we 'prove' that 'proof' is real and not just a figment of our collective imagination?

What is the provable baseline/point of reference for proving 'proof'? It's axiomatically tied with 'perception' (regardless of how wide or narrow the spectrum), and we can't prove a thing (like perception) by using as a point of reference the very thing we are attempting to prove.

Nothing is real, until empirically proven otherwise! :D

The Tractatus of Wittgenstein condensed in a few sentences. The reference of each logical proposition (fact) is another fact (logical proposition)... this creates a tautological chain that finishes with the Universe... and you still need a "reference" that is outside of your system of references: his strict empiricism and a strict logical method lead him directly to mysticism.

I think I will get a Wittgenstein T-Shirt, though maybe that's too hipster... I'm not sure, gonna ask my girlfriend who is more logical when it comes to fashion.

JDP
04-06-2017, 06:11 AM
Hi JDP

I have been thinking back to the time before I was given proofs,

You were given "proofs" of what?


Could you please answer one or two questions.

1 Do you want proof of the metaphysical/paranormal/The Force/spirits/etc.

Yes.


2 And if you do want proof ... WHY ?

For the same reason as everything else in life: to know what the truth is. Does anyone need any other reason? If there is no proof, then you can move on to other things for which there is actual proof. It makes much more sense and is better for your mind and sanity. It's better than to guide or preoccupy your life on something for which there is no proof whatsoever that actually even exists in the first place.

black
04-06-2017, 09:17 AM
I was given proofs that a force exists beyond our sciences ability to measure, that has an intelligence and a knowledge of past, present and future as if time does not exist for IT.

This Force has the ability to communicate with us.

I was talking to /communicating with The Force but that was not any
REAL PROOF for me.


Searching for the TRUTH is for me the best reason for wanting PROOFS.

It was also my reason for seeking proofs and this seemed to satisfy The Force
when I was asked that same question.

After that it was a bit like 'fasten your safety belt Dorothy 'cause kansas is going bye-bye'.

JDP
04-06-2017, 06:33 PM
I was given proofs that a force exists beyond our sciences ability to measure, that has an intelligence and a knowledge of past, present and future as if time does not exist for IT.

This Force has the ability to communicate with us.

I was talking to /communicating with The Force but that was not any
REAL PROOF for me.


Searching for the TRUTH is for me the best reason for wanting PROOFS.

It was also my reason for seeking proofs and this seemed to satisfy The Force
when I was asked that same question.

After that it was a bit like 'fasten your safety belt Dorothy 'cause kansas is going bye-bye'.

So you were given "proof" of something that you just admitted (unwittingly, maybe) cannot actually be proven? I hope you realize that with such "arguments" you won't be convincing anyone with at least a modicum of logic and common sense.

Schmuldvich
04-06-2017, 07:52 PM
I hope you realize that with such "arguments" you won't be convincing anyone with at least a modicum of logic and common sense.

People tend to irresponsibly disregard logic when they desire a thing to be! It is such a shame how illogical the world is!

Being a hyper-logical person can be incredibly frustrating. It feels as if I am the wisest sage on Earth sometimes and everyone else has the brain and rationality of a 6 year old. Just look at modern TV for example and how it influentially shapes society. My hyper-logical mind comes in handy in many situations, but overall for the most part, especially within modern society, it feels like more of a burden than a blessing (...because people are so stupid!). I would be much less cynical if I was less logical, but I choose to embrace my logic side which ends up costing me much "fun" and friendships. It's OK though! My self-preservation game is on point 10/10 to compensate haha!

JDP
04-06-2017, 08:07 PM
People tend to irresponsibly disregard logic when they desire a thing to be! It is such a shame how illogical the world is!

Being a hyper-logical person can be incredibly frustrating. It feels as if I am the wisest sage on Earth sometimes and everyone else has the brain and rationality of a 6 year old. Just look at modern TV for example and how it influentially shapes society. My hyper-logical mind comes in handy in many situations, but overall for the most part, especially within modern society, it feels like more of a burden than a blessing (...because people are so stupid!). I would be much less cynical if I was less logical, but I choose to embrace my logic side which ends up costing me much "fun" and friendships. It's OK though! My self-preservation game is on point 10/10 to compensate haha!

There are some topics that many people who are otherwise logical and intelligent simply can't deal with in a proper objective manner. Superstitions are one of them. For example, my father once had a customer who seemed like a normal person in all regards, but one day he was present while my dad caught a lizard, he was handling it and was about to set it free again when this fellow started screaming "NO! WAIT! NOOOOO!" My father was alarmed, "What the hell???" Then the guy told him: "Don't let it go! Either kill it or drink a glass of water first before you let it go. If you touch it and it finds a pool of water and it takes a drink of water before you do, you will die!" My father thought this guy was joking at first, but after the guy kept insisting with the same claptrap he saw that this fellow actually believed it. My dad just laughed at his ridiculous "explanations" and told him he had no idea what he was talking about and let the lizard go, and this guy was still like "NOOOO!" LOL!

zoas23
04-06-2017, 08:27 PM
So you were given "proof" of something that you just admitted (unwittingly, maybe) cannot actually be proven? I hope you realize that with such "arguments" you won't be convincing anyone with at least a modicum of logic and common sense.

... And you are right.
Which is why I adore Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus... He was OBSESSED with Logic, but demonstrated how "mysticism" is needed to understand the world... but he was far from being an irrationalist... and even considered that "mysticism" can NOT be "proven" and not even expressed by language.
Nicholas of Cusa followed an almost identical idea in his treaty on the not-other.


People tend to irresponsibly disregard logic when they desire a thing to be! It is such a shame how illogical the world is!

I would take a look at Wittgenstein, who probably wrote the best treaty on logic of the XX century...

The issue is NOT about disregarding logic, but it's the incredibly old discussion between Platonists and Aristotelians.

Aristotelians: the arche of the Being is the Being, it can be embraced by language and logic... we simply have to wait till science discovers the "truth" by logical means.

Platonists: the arche of the Being in the Not-Being, which can't be embraced by language and logic, which only arrives to the Being (we can't speak about the Not-Being, except through a negative Theology)... and yet Plato was very clear... if you don't arrive to a LOGICAL understanding of the Being, then forget about its arche.

So the issue has never been logic vs. irrationalism (even though the world is quite irrational! Impossible to deny it, but that's another issue! Your examples are OK). The issue is the limits of Logic and Empiricism... Is there something ABOVE them or not? That's the question...

This discussion is 2,500 years old and we are probably not going to find a definitive answer in this thread... though it is quite a fascinating question.

black
04-07-2017, 03:12 AM
So you were given "proof" of something that you just admitted (unwittingly, maybe) cannot actually be proven? I hope you realize that with such "arguments" you won't be convincing anyone with at least a modicum of logic and common sense.

If you're not prepared to continue with this work and commit yourself to the journey, then there is no more to be said. Alchemy and the mysteries are an arcane and sacred knowledge. Only you can seek these TRUTHS for yourself. NO ONE can prove these mysteries to you. My good friends and I can't keep repeating the same things over and over again. If you are happy with the mundane illusion you call reality then cling to it if you must and perhaps get another hobby. But if you want the truth...it doesn't come for free.


The good news is ... it's possible. The bad news is...you'll have to do the work yourself.

Like going to the gym. Unless you actually go there and train every day...you will never really discover the benefits.

black
04-07-2017, 03:22 AM
People tend to irresponsibly disregard logic when they desire a thing to be! It is such a shame how illogical the world is!

Being a hyper-logical person can be incredibly frustrating. It feels as if I am the wisest sage on Earth sometimes and everyone else has the brain and rationality of a 6 year old. Just look at modern TV for example and how it influentially shapes society. My hyper-logical mind comes in handy in many situations, but overall for the most part, especially within modern society, it feels like more of a burden than a blessing (...because people are so stupid!). I would be much less cynical if I was less logical, but I choose to embrace my logic side which ends up costing me much "fun" and friendships. It's OK though! My self-preservation game is on point 10/10 to compensate haha!

Hey Schmuldvich

Do you have any spiritual/mystical awareness? ...and BTW I'm not talking about religion here.

Schmuldvich
04-07-2017, 03:43 AM
Hey Schmuldvich

Do you have any spiritual/mystical awareness? ...and BTW I'm not talking about religion here.

Loads! Since the age of 13 I have been exploring and seeking to understand that realm.

black
04-07-2017, 04:07 AM
Loads! Since the age of 13 I have been exploring and seeking to understand that realm.


So good to have such an early start.

JDP
04-07-2017, 02:01 PM
If you're not prepared to continue with this work and commit yourself to the journey, then there is no more to be said. Alchemy and the mysteries are an arcane and sacred knowledge. Only you can seek these TRUTHS for yourself. NO ONE can prove these mysteries to you. My good friends and I can't keep repeating the same things over and over again. If you are happy with the mundane illusion you call reality then cling to it if you must and perhaps get another hobby. But if you want the truth...it doesn't come for free.


The good news is ... it's possible. The bad news is...you'll have to do the work yourself.

Like going to the gym. Unless you actually go there and train every day...you will never really discover the benefits.

As I expected, pure speculation and assumptions, no proofs whatsoever for your beliefs. And you should leave alchemy out from such alleged "arcane sacred knowledge". That's just a gratuitous claim made by some alchemists to self-aggrandize their empirical craft and impress what they considered to be "vulgar" people with tall-tales. The cold, hard fact, and the real reason why the alchemists so carefully avoided revealing the operations and substances they worked with in a way that just about anyone could easily discover it, is that alchemy is replicable by anyone, it does not require any supposed "psychic/spiritual/supernatural powers" or any "Divine Permission/Gift/Revelation" or anything of the sort. If alchemy really depended on such things the alchemists would not have invested so much time and effort coming up with all sorts of "decknamen", allegories, parables, analogies, and similar obstacles to prevent most people from easily discovering how to make the Stone. Alchemy in fact could "self-protect" itself by its supposed "supernatural" character, but it is hardly so. It definitely needed the "protection" of the very alchemists themselves in order to try to remain "secret" from the bulk of humanity.

Illen A. Cluf
04-07-2017, 02:27 PM
As I expected, pure speculation and assumptions, no proofs whatsoever for your beliefs. And you should leave alchemy out from such alleged "arcane sacred knowledge". That's just a gratuitous claim made by some alchemists to self-aggrandize their empirical craft and impress what they considered to be "vulgar" people with tall-tales. The cold, hard fact, and the real reason why the alchemists so carefully avoided revealing the operations and substances they worked with in a way that just about anyone could easily discover it, is that alchemy is replicable by anyone, it does not require any supposed "psychic/spiritual/supernatural powers" or any "Divine Permission/Gift/Revelation" or anything of the sort. If alchemy really depended on such things the alchemists would not have invested so much time and effort coming up with all sorts of "decknamen", allegories, parables, analogies, and similar obstacles to prevent most people from easily discovering how to make the Stone. Alchemy in fact could "self-protect" itself by its supposed "supernatural" character, but it is hardly so. It definitely needed the "protection" of the very alchemists themselves in order to try to remain "secret" from the bulk of humanity.

I agree totally with this. Alchemy is a science based on philosophical evaluations and observations and is not part of the psychic/spiritual/supernatural realm. The only thing I disagree with you about is your insistence that the psychic/spiritual/supernatural realm has no reality. It's not easily provable since it often involves non-physical or at least mostly non-physical elements which science cannot easily measure and is therefore often dismissed (actually there are scientific "proofs" for some elements of this realm). With my scientific background, I used to dismiss it myself, until I encountered so many unusual experiences (along with reliable witnesses) that I could not longer dismiss them. I'm personally not obsessed with trying to prove them. I know they exist and they have value for me, so that's enough.

zoas23
04-07-2017, 10:50 PM
I agree totally with this. Alchemy is a science based on philosophical evaluations and observations and is not part of the psychic/spiritual/supernatural realm. The only thing I disagree with you about is your insistence that the psychic/spiritual/supernatural realm has no reality. It's not easily provable since it often involves non-physical or at least mostly non-physical elements which science cannot easily measure and is therefore often dismissed (actually there are scientific "proofs" for some elements of this realm). With my scientific background, I used to dismiss it myself, until I encountered so many unusual experiences (along with reliable witnesses) that I could not longer dismiss them. I'm personally not obsessed with trying to prove them. I know they exist and they have value for me, so that's enough.

Rather than "not easily provable", I would say "not provable".

I was looking for the famous quote of the Tractatus of Wittgenstein and I came across a web that united many passages of the Tractatus that comment this issue:


For an answer which cannot be expressed the question too cannot be expressed. The riddle does not exist. If a question can be put at all, then it can also be answered. Skepticism is not irrefutable, but palpably senseless, if it would doubt where a question cannot be asked. For doubt can only exist where there is a question; a question only where there is an answer, and this only where something can be said. We feel that even if all possible scientific questions be answered, the problems of life have still not been touched at all. Of course there is then no question left, and just this is the answer. The solution of the problem of life is seen in the vanishing of this problem.(Is not this the reason why men to whom after long doubting the sense of life became clear, could not then say wherein this sense consisted?) There is indeed the inexpressible. This shows itself; it is the mystical …Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

He was, of course, a Logician and a Mystic... and he was mostly trying to establish the limits of the realm of Logic and Language.
He was a bit obsessive and didn't like the idea of using language in random ways... thus his idea that we can discuss empirical facts, but when we go beyond the empirical facts, we must remain silent...

But before that final statement, he brings the famous allegory of the ladder, which somehow "saves" language:


My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them—as steps—to climb beyond them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.) He must transcend these propositions, and then he will see the world aright.

The infamous "Spiritus Mundi" would be a perfect example... it is VERY empirical and yet a "skeptic" can claim that it doesn't involve anything "mystical" and it would be a vicious circle.
And then it gets even more complex with things which are not even "touchable" or "visible".

I insist with Wittgenstein, but my FAVORITE passage in the whole history of Philosophy is in Plato's Republic, which is a passage that I informally call "The Silence of Socrates" (Book VI of the Republic):


Still, I must implore you, Socrates, said Glaucon, not to turn away just as you are reaching the goal; if you will only give such an explanation of the good as you have already given of justice and temperance and the other virtues, we shall be satisfied.
Yes, my friend, said Socrates, and I shall be at least equally satisfied, but I cannot help fearing that I shall fail, and that my indiscreet zeal will bring ridicule upon me. No, sweet sirs, let us not at present ask what is the actual nature of the good, for to reach what is now in my thoughts would be an effort too great for me. But of the child of the good who is likest him, I would fain speak, if I could be sure that you wished to hear—otherwise, not.
By all means, he said, tell us about the child, and you shall remain in our debt for the account of the parent.
I do indeed wish, I replied, that I could pay, and you receive, the account of the parent, and not, as now, of the offspring only; take, however, this latter by way of interest, and at the same time have a care that I do not render a false account, although I have no intention of deceiving you.
Yes, we will take all the care that we can: proceed.

The BIG ISSUE of the book is the form of good... and yet when Glaucon asks Socrates to explain what the hell is such thing, Socrates gives a polite excuse and says that he will talk about its offspring, its son... He even says that if he talks DIRECTLY about the Form of Good, he will be "deceiving" Glaucon. So it's quite "Wittgensteinian"... he can only offer a "ladder" expecting that Glaucon will be able to "climb the ladder" by himself and then "throw it away".

This "silence" is incredibly interesting for me.

So in a strange way I am with JDP: when we use expressions such as "the INCORPOREAL Spiritus Mundi" we are being senseless... I can absolutely agree there. Though senseless in which way? We are beyond the realm of the apparences (Doxa) and we climb to the same realm that made Socrates prefer to remain silent about.

The ladder can be offered, but NOBODY can climb the ladder for another person.

It is like the tale by Balzac, the "Unknown Masterpiece"... Frenhofer is the tutor of the painters Poussin and Porbus, but each time they bring a painting to him, he tells them that they have not captured the life, the spirit, in their work. Poussin and Porbus get frustrated and ask him if he can show them a painting in which he, Frenhofer, has captured the spirit... and the tale is beautiful... this is what happens when they visit his studio:


“Look here!” said the old man. His hair was disordered, his face aglow with a more than human exaltation, his eyes glittered, he breathed hard like a young lover frenzied by love.
“Aha!” he cried, “you did not expect to see such perfection! You are looking for a picture, and you see a woman before you. There is such depth in that canvas, the atmosphere is so true that you can not distinguish it from the air that surrounds us. Where is art? Art has vanished, it is invisible! It is the form of a living girl that you see before you. Have I not caught the very hues of life, the spirit of the living line that defines the figure? Is there not the effect produced there like that which all natural objects present in the atmosphere about them, or fishes in the water? Do you see how the figure stands out against the background? Does it not seem to you that you pass your hand along the back? But then for seven years I studied and watched how the daylight blends with the objects on which it falls. And the hair, the light pours over it like a flood, does it not?... Ah! she breathed, I am sure that she breathed! Her breast—ah, see! Who would not fall on his knees before her? Her pulses throb. She will rise to her feet. Wait!”
“Do you see anything?” Poussin asked of Porbus.
“No... do you?”
“I see nothing.”
The two painters left the old man to his ecstasy, and tried to ascertain whether the light that fell full upon the canvas had in some way neutralized all the effect for them. They moved to the right and left of the picture; they came in front, bending down and standing upright by turns.
“Yes, yes, it is really canvas,” said Frenhofer, who mistook the nature of this minute investigation.
“Look! the canvas is on a stretcher, here is the easel; indeed, here are my colors, my brushes,” and he took up a brush and held it out to them, all unsuspicious of their thought.
“The old lansquenet is laughing at us,” said Poussin, coming once more toward the supposed picture. “I can see nothing there but confused masses of color and a multitude of fantastical lines that go to make a dead wall of paint.”
“We are mistaken, look!” said Porbus.
In a corner of the canvas, as they came nearer, they distinguished a bare foot emerging from the chaos of color, half-tints and vague shadows that made up a dim, formless fog. Its living delicate beauty held them spellbound. This fragment that had escaped an incomprehensible, slow, and gradual destruction seemed to them like the Parian marble torso of some Venus emerging from the ashes of a ruined town.
“There is a woman beneath,” exclaimed Porbus, calling Poussin’s attention to the coats of paint with which the old artist had overlaid and concealed his work in the quest of perfection.
Both artists turned involuntarily to Frenhofer. They began to have some understanding, vague though it was, of the ecstasy in which he lived.
“He believes it in all good faith,” said Porbus.
“Yes, my friend,” said the old man, rousing himself from his dreams, “it needs faith, faith in art, and you must live for long with your work to produce such a creation. What toil some of those shadows have cost me. Look! there is a faint shadow there upon the cheek beneath the eyes—if you saw that on a human face, it would seem to you that you could never render it with paint. Do you think that that effect has not cost unheard of toil?
“But not only so, dear Porbus. Look closely at my work, and you will understand more clearly what I was saying as to methods of modeling and outline. Look at the high lights on the bosom, and see how by touch on touch, thickly laid on, I have raised the surface so that it catches the light itself and blends it with the lustrous whiteness of the high lights, and how by an opposite process, by flattening the surface of the paint, and leaving no trace of the passage of the brush, I have succeeded in softening the contours of my figures and enveloping them in half-tints until the very idea of drawing, of the means by which the effect is produced, fades away, and the picture has the roundness and relief of nature. Come closer. You will see the manner of working better; at a little distance it can not be seen. There I Just there, it is, I think, very plainly to be seen,” and with the tip of his brush he pointed out a patch of transparent color to the two painters.
Porbus, laying a hand on the old artist’s shoulder, turned to Poussin with a “Do you know that in him we see a very great painter?”
“He is even more of a poet than a painter,” Poussin answered gravely.
“There,” Porbus continued, as he touched the canvas, “Use the utmost limit of our art on earth.”
“Beyond that point it loses itself in the skies,” said Poussin.
“What joys lie there on this piece of canvas!” exclaimed Porbus.
The old man, deep in his own musings, smiled at the woman he alone beheld, and did not hear.
“But sooner or later he will find out that there is nothing there!” cried Poussin.

Frenhofer saw EVERYTHING there, the incorporeal Spirit... and yet Poussin and Porbus saw NOTHING. A painting is like a ladder... Frenhofer CAN show the evidence, but the evidence does not make ANY sense to Poussin and Porbus.

More or less a week ago Axis wondered why nobody posted a photo of the infamous "Spiritus Mundi"... because it's like the painting by Frenhofer. You can show it to "Poussin" and "Porbus" and they will say "I see nothing there". He said that it might be related to the Biblical parable of casting pearls before swines... I think it's related to a song by Pearls before Swine!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWfN9R3zyx8

Illen A. Cluf
04-07-2017, 11:47 PM
Fascinating response, Zoas, but I'm afraid that it will be over most people's heads. To boil it all down, there are some obvious truths that will be very evident to some, but any depiction of those truths through art or other means will be lost to others because of different levels of experience.

The same goes with any explanation of events that are not normally experienced (or acknowledged) by others. Truth becomes most relative. There are a realm of truths under the umbrella of Science and its limited means of determining truth, and there are other truths that are outside the current realm of Science that extend beyond the parameters of its ability to establish truth.

Artists, musicians, and other forms of art have attempted for thousands of years to encapsulate metaphysical truth in a symbolic way that attempts to transmit those truths to others, but while it might be obvious to the artist himself, it will not always be obvious to the observer, even if it "rings' something deep inside. At best it can open the doors to the digestion of new experience, but can never express itself to anyone who has not already experienced it to some degree.

Truth is only conveyable to those who have already experienced it in some form. Other than that, art can only paint a symbolic picture in the subconscious mind so that any future experience will not immediately be completely erased soon afterwards because of preconceived indoctrination.

I'm keenly aware of these immediate erasures because of preconceptions, and have seen it happen first-hand. It's a very common human response to our 'normal' conception of reality.

As for 'pearls', they have no intrinsic practical value. They are only valuable because of defined human perceptions. Swine are intelligent because they only see pearls as shiny balls of calcium carbonate, which is all that they really are. Only humans put value on them because of their scarcity and difficulty of obtaining. The same with the metaphysical. It's not at all special or valuable, but just is. Because others can't see it for what it is, does not mean that those who recognize it are special. If anything, we are fortunate for having had experiences that we did not immediately deny because of preconceptions.

JDP
04-08-2017, 12:06 AM
The infamous "Spiritus Mundi" would be a perfect example... it is VERY empirical and yet a "skeptic" can claim that it doesn't involve anything "mystical" and it would be a vicious circle.
And then it gets even more complex with things which are not even "touchable" or "visible".


But how is this "Spiritus Mundi" supposedly "very empirical"??? Who has actually isolated this thing and analyzed it and shown that it actually exists? NO ONE, that's who! What we have is a series of historical errors from people who accepted this THEORY a priori and then confused some actual things, like the humidity from the air that some salts are able to attract if exposed to the atmosphere long enough, as that THEORETICAL thing, but which obviously was not.

Aham
04-08-2017, 02:33 AM
But how is this "Spiritus Mundi" supposedly "very empirical"??? Who has actually isolated this thing and analyzed it and shown that it actually exists? NO ONE, that's who! What we have is a series of historical errors from people who accepted this THEORY a priori and then confused some actual things, like the humidity from the air that some salts are able to attract if exposed to the atmosphere long enough, as that THEORETICAL thing, but which obviously was not.

JDP, if I combine what you're saying here and what you've elaborated in the "Success and Failure" thread, the outcome of these two discussions seems to be that you were able to achieve mineral transmutations to gold and/or silver without "Spiritus Mundi." Is that right? Maybe you said that in the other thread as well and I may have missed it. This is very interesting indeed.

JDP
04-08-2017, 04:00 AM
JDP, if I combine what you're saying here and what you've elaborated in the "Success and Failure" thread, the outcome of these two discussions seems to be that you were able to achieve mineral transmutations to gold and/or silver without "Spiritus Mundi." Is that right? Maybe you said that in the other thread as well and I may have missed it. This is very interesting indeed.

Yes, and no. For I do not see any evidence of this "Spiritus Mundi" actually existing. You could more correctly say that I have achieved transmutations without the Stone or the secret solvent used to make it, contrary to what most alchemists claimed, who believed that transmutation by methods other than theirs was "impossible". Some of the methods and substances I have tested and that have given positive results in fact are among the things that most alchemists condemned as "sophistical" and "false", ironically. For example, most alchemists condemn common lead, yet I have found several processes where you can produce small amounts of silver from it, as well as from alloys of it with some other metals. And NO, that silver was NOT there before as an impurity, as ordinary chemists (naive fellows like Vladimir Karpenko, for example) would love to very conveniently use as an "explanation". When you scorify or cupel a like quantity of the same exact lead, without going through the chymical treatments, the lead does not give any visible amount of silver, it only does so after it has undergone the chymical procedures. I in fact usually employ assayer's lead for this type of experiments, which is extremely low in gold and silver content; you would have to cupel many pounds of it to get even a minuscule amount of silver from it. The quantities of lead I employ in these experiments do not surpass 100 grams, and yet I still get a very visible and tangible amount of silver from it. So this is definitely not due to any "impurities" in the lead.

black
04-08-2017, 04:07 AM
Hi Zoas

it sounds like you may have painted some Frenhofer's also.

black
04-08-2017, 04:09 AM
@ JDP @ Ilen

Yes I agree with both of you that the work in the lab can virtually be done
by anyone, as the old masters said WOMEN'S WORK and CHILDS PLAY.

Just like making a cake or bread, so they say.

SIMPLE...follow the RECIPE.

Now we get to the RECIPE, would you all agree that this is the TRICKY BIT ???

Perhaps The Force, God , The Mystical, Magic, Radiating Vibrations from the Ether,
etc, etc whatever you chose to call IT....MAY ASSIST with the UNDERSTANDING
of the GIBBERISH so that we can have THE RECIPE.

JDP
04-08-2017, 04:20 AM
@ JDP @ Ilen

Yes I agree with both of you that the work in the lab can virtually be done
by anyone, as the old masters said WOMEN'S WORK and CHILDS PLAY.

Just like making a cake or bread, so they say.

SIMPLE...follow the RECIPE.

Now we get to the RECIPE, would you all agree that this is the TRICKY BIT ???

Perhaps The Force, God , The Mystical, Magic, Radiating Vibrations from the Ether,
etc, etc whatever you chose to call IT....MAY ASSIST with the UNDERSTANDING
of the GIBBERISH so that we can have THE RECIPE.

But if success depends on this hypothetical "The Force, God, The Mystical, Magic, Radiating Vibrations from the Ether, etc." then why the need of so much secrecy regarding other things, specially the substances employed in making the Stone? You could simply reveal all the materials that make up the Stone, and people who don't know about the necessity of such mysterious things as you mention above would still miserably fail. But we can plainly see that that's not what the alchemists did in their writings. What they invariably protect under a barrage of obfuscating tactics is those very substances to work with. That should immediately have told you that the whole secret of the subject revolves around these substances, not in some weird mysterious (and unproven) "power". The secret is in the interaction of these materials, not in some weird supposed "power" emanating from or through the operator.

black
04-08-2017, 04:34 AM
But if success depends on this hypothetical "The Force, God, The Mystical, Magic, Radiating Vibrations from the Ether, etc." then why the need of so much secrecy regarding other things, specially the substances employed in making the Stone? You could simply reveal all the materials that make up the Stone, and people who don't know about the necessity of such mysterious things as you mention above would still miserably fail. But we can plainly see that that's not what the alchemists did in their writings. What they invariably protect under a barrage of obfuscating tactics is those very substances to work with. That should immediately have told you that the whole secret of the subject revolves around these substances, not in some weird mysterious (and unproven) "power". The secret is in the interaction of these materials, not in some weird supposed "power" emanating from or through the operator.

Maybe I should have written...THE RECIPE and THE MATERIALS used.

I'm not suggesting that there is some weird "power" emanating from or through the operator.

I am inferring that the OPERATOR is being tutored and guided by a Force.

JDP
04-08-2017, 04:43 AM
Maybe I should have written...THE RECIPE and THE MATERIALS used.

I'm not suggesting that there is some weird "power" emanating from or through the operator.

I am inferring that the OPERATOR is being tutored and guided by a Force.

Maybe I should have written "power/force".

And how is this "tutoring" supposedly happening? Through some mysterious "voices" in their heads? You know what happens when you start hearing "voices" in your head, don't you? You don't discover how to make the Stone, but you end up like this guy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280233/Mark-David-Chapman-John-Lennons-killer-wrote-chilling-letters-arresting-NYPD-officer.html

elixirmixer
04-08-2017, 07:13 AM
And how is this "tutoring" supposedly happening? Through some mysterious "voices" in their heads?



I see/envision image-feelings in my intuition, which, I always thank God for, since it is indeed the source - of these inspirational realisations.

The only time I've ever heard voices was after praying for an entire day straight at Uluru (Ayers Rock).

But yeah, inspiration is a very valid form of information gathering, hell, it's my bread and butter.

black
04-08-2017, 07:16 AM
JDP if what you are saying is correct.............

Having intuition, hearing voices and seeing things...I fear my
TOWER of FAITH and YELLOW BRICK ROAD are crumbling.



If there are any Adept Alchemists out there that disagree with what I'm writing about The Force, Spirit, etc, etc PLEASE feel free to PM me.

I would be more than glad to be corrected by someone that has a clearer understanding on this subject than I do.

As a beginner on this road I need all the help I can get !!!

Awani
04-08-2017, 10:44 AM
And how is this "tutoring" supposedly happening? Through some mysterious "voices" in their heads? You know what happens when you start hearing "voices" in your head, don't you? You don't discover how to make the Stone, but you end up like this guy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2280233/Mark-David-Chapman-John-Lennons-killer-wrote-chilling-letters-arresting-NYPD-officer.html

This is nonsense IMO. If the debate is on this level I think everyone involved should re-evaluate their participation.

:cool:

black
04-08-2017, 12:36 PM
My apologies to the members of Alchemy Forums if I have been a
bit out spoken and juvenile in my responses.

Thanks to all those that have participated in this thread, I have gained
something from each and every one of you.

Kind regards
Black

Awani
04-08-2017, 11:14 PM
I wasn't talking about you, rather the remark about people who have certain "powers" are equal to Lennon killers.

:cool:

elixirmixer
04-08-2017, 11:15 PM
How many people here actually HAVE alchemical secrets?

I know I do, and I'm willing to trade ;)

Illen A. Cluf
04-08-2017, 11:55 PM
How many people here actually HAVE alchemical secrets?

I know I do, and I'm willing to trade ;)

I've heard this from so many people over the years that I cringe when I hear it. Almost 99% of the time they are wrong. There are numerous 'supposed' secrets, but only very few real secrets. How do you know that your secrets are bona fide?

Schmuldvich
04-09-2017, 12:21 AM
How many people here actually HAVE alchemical secrets?

I know I do, and I'm willing to trade ;)
Please tell me you're joking...

elixirmixer
04-09-2017, 12:59 AM
Well, the thread is about secrecy, and I'm the kind of person that associates secrecy with darkness, manipulation and bad intentions. Sure, people have there reasons, all I'm saying is that their reasoning is flawed and prideful.

Why, you wanna swap secrets?

Had this forum been a more open place, I would have already revealed my secrets but since most people tend to keep their cards close to their chest, I've done the same. (-ish).

You have to remember, that I basically did ten years of alchemy before I ever spoke to another alchemist. I had the pleasure of having a completely fresh viewpoint on alchemy, and it did me wonders in my early years because nature has been my main teacher, authors are only auxiliary, usually for some piece of technical methodology.

Example: Golden chain of Homer. I understood most of that stuff before I read the book, but when I DID read it, it enhanced my understanding by teaching me more intricacies about how the elements relate to one another individually, which was important info that I didn't have.

Sharing is caring :)

People are sick, and a lot of the time, it is not their fault.

We, as the AlchemyForums community, ought to be doing all we can about that, IMO.

And, that's just simply not going to happen unless we work together. Is it?

elixirmixer
04-09-2017, 01:11 AM
I've heard this from so many people over the years that I cringe when I hear it. Almost 99% of the time they are wrong. There are numerous 'supposed' secrets, but only very few real secrets. How do you know that your secrets are bona fide?

I am a practical alchemist, so, usually through experience.

Other secrets I "feel" I have but that could be bogus because I haven't experimented on them. But, I've made some pretty cool stuff, which, if I was a good businessman, would have its own patent and be sold internationally. Metallurgy is a very important science, one that I believe I can contribute towards, but do not, because I won't be giving it to this worlds evil minded people, due to the fact that humans aren't mature enough to handle the technology they have already; without me adding to their weaponry.

Nevertheless, scientific discoveries have always been my main goal, right after cure cancer and become a god.

In fact, I was born with all those goals pre-built into my brain. It was a horrific shock to my system at about the age of 16 when I realised that not everyone else thought the same way I did. A huge, terrifying shock.

You still see me effected by it to this day when I have my little "no faith in humanity" freak outs, which appear in various places on this forum. (Apprentice WANTED and One In Purpose threads)

What would you regard as true secrets vs. fake secrets?

JDP
04-09-2017, 02:01 AM
I wasn't talking about you, rather the remark about people who have certain "powers" are equal to Lennon killers.

:cool:

You mean people who think they have "certain powers". And yes, some of them end up bonkers, specially after they start hearing "voices" inside their heads.

Are you perhaps hearing such "voices", dev? Did my observations of what can happen to people who "hear" such things touch a nerve by any chance? :)

JDP
04-09-2017, 02:09 AM
I am a practical alchemist, so, usually through experience.

Other secrets I "feel" I have but that could be bogus because I haven't experimented on them. But, I've made some pretty cool stuff, which, if I was a good businessman, would have its own patent and be sold internationally. Metallurgy is a very important science, one that I believe I can contribute towards, but do not, because I won't be giving it to this worlds evil minded people, due to the fact that humans aren't mature enough to handle the technology they have already; without me adding to their weaponry.

Nevertheless, scientific discoveries have always been my main goal, right after cure cancer and become a god.

In fact, I was born with all those goals pre-built into my brain. It was a horrific shock to my system at about the age of 16 when I realised that not everyone else thought the same way I did. A huge, terrifying shock.

You still see me effected by it to this day when I have my little "no faith in humanity" freak outs, which appear in various places on this forum. (Apprentice WANTED and One In Purpose threads)

What would you regard as true secrets vs. fake secrets?

How can you have any "alchemical secrets" when you don't know how to make the secret solvent/water which is absolutely necessary to make the Stone? And if you do discover it, then you won't want to "trade it" for anything. This is once again a proper place to insert the very pertinent comments made by the early 17th century alchemist Michael Maier in his treatise entitled "Examen Fucorum Pseudo-Chymicorum", regarding those who in his times pretended to have "alchemical secrets" to sell to others:

"It goes against all reason that someone who really had mastered this great art, tested over and over again in experiments, would want to sell this knowledge to another for a piece of bread or a bit of gold.
It is an unmistakable sign of the pseudo-chymist that he wants to sell gold for gold, something uncertain as fact, and something priceless for very little. If he doesn't really possess it (i.e. the alchemical secret), then it is as if he had sold wind and empty words for money. If the latter is the case, then the scoundrel receives too much money for the wind, and the buyer is cheated. If the former is the case, then the seller is cheated."

Maier's above comments and observations are as logical and to the point today as they were 400 years ago when he published them. Anyone who discovers how to make the Stone/Elixir will neither sell it or trade it for anything. If he did, he would be cheated, as practically nothing else in the world is as valuable. But if it is a person who does not know the secret, then he is selling "empty wind", or at the very least something else that is not the alchemical secret properly, so the buyer is the one who is cheated.

elixirmixer
04-09-2017, 02:31 AM
Maier's above comments and observations are as logical and to the point today as they were 400 years ago when he published them. Anyone who discovers how to make the Stone/Elixir will neither sell it or trade it for anything. If he did, he would be cheated, as practically nothing else in the world is as valuable. But if it is a person who does not know the secret, then he is selling "empty wind", or at the very least something else that is not the alchemical secret properly, so the buyer is the one who is cheated.

And equally as dogmatic, many of you on this forum, stick to some 'code' of how an adept is suppose to 'act' or what he would or would not do, if he had been successful.

How is that logical? It's an assumption so deep that I believe it has no end.

You have said before JDP, that the reason you wanna make the stone is for health, wealth and long years.

I personally want to make the stone as a validation of my studies into nature and to heal the sick (which includes me, mainly self inflicted)

EDIT: So... If we both obtain the stone, obviously our actions will be different from one another, since our initial interest is different, since our goals and reasons are different, an since I believe in God, who I believe will fuck my shit up if I start printing money. So how can we say "an adept would do this" when in fact, what is more LOGICAL, is that they will likely all do different things, and act in different ways.

And I tell ya what, when I complete the stone, I won't be telling any of you shits, because you deserve to reap what you sow. Well, none of the overly secretive of you anyway.

And, I'm pretty close to knowing the three different methods for preparing the three unspecified stones. I made a claim about there being 3 stones, vegi, anima, mineral. Plus te epic ultimate stone.

I now, also believe that there are three different epic stones.

One uses water and salt.

One uses the prepared magnet of the wise.

One of them uses nothing at all.

So in regards to me not knowing the secret solvent, that is again, quite a heavy assumption. :cool:

Illen A. Cluf
04-09-2017, 02:33 AM
I am a practical alchemist, so, usually through experience.

Other secrets I "feel" I have but that could be bogus because I haven't experimented on them. But, I've made some pretty cool stuff, which, if I was a good businessman, would have its own patent and be sold internationally. Metallurgy is a very important science, one that I believe I can contribute towards, but do not, because I won't be giving it to this worlds evil minded people, due to the fact that humans aren't mature enough to handle the technology they have already; without me adding to their weaponry.

Nevertheless, scientific discoveries have always been my main goal, right after cure cancer and become a god.

In fact, I was born with all those goals pre-built into my brain. It was a horrific shock to my system at about the age of 16 when I realised that not everyone else thought the same way I did. A huge, terrifying shock.

You still see me effected by it to this day when I have my little "no faith in humanity" freak outs, which appear in various places on this forum. (Apprentice WANTED and One In Purpose threads)

What would you regard as true secrets vs. fake secrets?

Your arguments are not very convincing, but I'm not surprised, as when most people who make such boasts are asked directly, they tend to deflect the question and provide little substance.

Most of these people "feel" that they are onto something, but that does not mean they are onto the truth. Life is full of surprises, but a surprise does not equate to an alchemical "secret".

Sorry for sounding so bold and direct, but that's just my personality. I have no time for those who seem to pretend more than they actually know.


What would you regard as true secrets vs. fake secrets?

Anything that, at the mimimum, suggests a LOT of research and deep understanding, not only of the practical, but also of the theoretical/philosophical. This research must at least extend to the early alchemists, before, say the 1300's, particularly the arabic alchemists. I feel that much of the alchemical information that succeeded them is highly distorted, and more so in the last few centuries.

Talk philosophical/theoretical alchemy to me (without directly revealing any secrets) and I will likely be able to determine to a fair degree whether or not your "secrets" are legitimate, or at least in line with the deeper understanding of the ancient alchemists.

Schmuldvich
04-09-2017, 03:04 AM
So in regards to me not knowing the secret solvent, that is again, quite a heavy assumption. :cool:

...It is not an assumption but an outright FACT. You do not possess "our Solvent".

How many have eyes that see???


http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/WebResources_13/EMspectrum/em_scale.gif

Do you think anyone here is in the possession of this secret Solvent?

elixirmixer
04-09-2017, 06:55 AM
I did not claim to possess it, but I've got a pretty darn good understanding of how to get it.

Tell me then Schmuldvich, what properties would my solvent have to have to be considered OURS?

EDIT:(I suppose if you believe no one has it, and I make it, then it will be called MY solvent haha :cool::cool::cool:)

Your statement does make me very much want to blurt out all the secrets, alas, I fear that will just piss some people off, people that I am intending on collaborating with, so, I'll have to swallow my ego and continue to let you believe that I know so little ;)

I am going to have our solvent by the end of next year at the very latest, yet I have no doubt tht you are better versed in it's antiquity and description Schmuldvich, so please, tell me what it is I'm looking for in regards to it's properties, and when I have a crack at it I'll let you know if it's on par. I'll even send you some :cool:

elixirmixer
04-09-2017, 06:59 AM
Do you think anyone here is in the possession of this secret Solvent?

Yes.

Edit:(If they don't, their not trying hard enough)

Awani
04-09-2017, 09:10 AM
Did my observations of what can happen to people who "hear" such things touch a nerve by any chance? :)

LOL. No. No more than listening to a toddler argue about international trade policy.

Basically it would be useless to do that.

:cool:

[seems like this thread was closed by mistake, open again]

JDP
04-09-2017, 11:55 PM
And equally as dogmatic, many of you on this forum, stick to some 'code' of how an adept is suppose to 'act' or what he would or would not do, if he had been successful.

How is that logical? It's an assumption so deep that I believe it has no end.

You have said before JDP, that the reason you wanna make the stone is for health, wealth and long years.

I personally want to make the stone as a validation of my studies into nature and to heal the sick (which includes me, mainly self inflicted)

EDIT: So... If we both obtain the stone, obviously our actions will be different from one another, since our initial interest is different, since our goals and reasons are different, an since I believe in God, who I believe will fuck my shit up if I start printing money. So how can we say "an adept would do this" when in fact, what is more LOGICAL, is that they will likely all do different things, and act in different ways.

And I tell ya what, when I complete the stone, I won't be telling any of you shits, because you deserve to reap what you sow. Well, none of the overly secretive of you anyway.

And, I'm pretty close to knowing the three different methods for preparing the three unspecified stones. I made a claim about there being 3 stones, vegi, anima, mineral. Plus te epic ultimate stone.

I now, also believe that there are three different epic stones.

One uses water and salt.

One uses the prepared magnet of the wise.

One of them uses nothing at all.

So in regards to me not knowing the secret solvent, that is again, quite a heavy assumption. :cool:

No, it's just a thorough acquaintance with human nature. You say all those "unselfish" things now, because you don't know the secret, but if you ever become privy of it, your outlook will change entirely. No one who is sane and rational foolishly kills or gives away "the goose that lays the golden eggs". Self-preservation and taking advantage of a given situation always kick in. It's healthy, it's for your own benefit. Embrace it, nothing "shameful" about it. Once you are well off, healthy and secure, then you can spare time and effort to help others, but always think of yourself first. Self-preservation, my boy, s-e-l-f-p-r-e-s-e-r-v-a-t-i-o-n. If you ever discover or are taught by someone else how to make the Stone, I will bet you anything that you will NOT "trade" or "sell" it in exchange for pretty much anything else. Remember Maier's wise observations: you will be cheated if you do so, as there is basically nothing else that has the same value and usefulness. You will be the loser in this unfair "exchange/sale", not the "buyer", he is the one who will come off the big winner, and you the big loser (do an "L" shape with your thumb and index finger and press it against your forehead while you look at yourself in the mirror; that's how you will feel if you ever go through this absurd and self-detrimental "trade/sale".)

Awani
04-10-2017, 12:06 AM
No one who is sane and rational foolishly kills or gives away "the goose that lays the golden eggs".

Says more about you than about the rest of the world. In many cases you will be correct, but the greatest secret - known by many wise people - is that the above quote is wrong. Not wrong for you... but wrong for those that are a bit more enlightened (not speaking of myself here) when it comes to greed, ego and possessiveness.

:cool:

JDP
04-10-2017, 12:30 AM
Says more about you than about the rest of the world. In many cases you will be correct, but the greatest secret - known by many wise people - is that the above quote is wrong. Not wrong for you... but wrong for those that are a bit more enlightened (not speaking of myself here) when it comes to greed, ego and possessiveness.

:cool:

Don't confuse being realistic and having common sense with all those things. In fact the above message says more about you and the fantasy world that you have constructed for yourself than about how the real world is.

zoas23
04-10-2017, 01:35 AM
Don't confuse being realistic and having common sense with all those things. In fact the above message says more about you and the fantasy world that you have constructed for yourself than about how the real world is.

Gosh... Friendship is an ontological category, but even an empiricist can understand it and have friends.
To be honest, sharing among friends is VERY usual and it's not even related to any kind of "mysticism".
Other than that, the small "scene" (damn, I wish I had a more fluent English, the word "scene" is atrocious) of Hermeticism is one of the kindest ones in many different senses.

I was just talking to an alchemist from Spain... and since my girlfriend was having troubles with finding a house there, he said: "She can stay at home till she finds one".
We talked about some places to go once I travel there and he said "You can visit a lot of places using my car, I have no problems in giving you my car".

Friendship and kindness are not even "mystical", JDP... nor they are a fantasy.
(I have also hosted persons into Hermeticism and Art MANY times at my house for free... and it was not something I've done to gain "karma points").

I got used to your "I am a realist, an empiricist" ways... That's OK. But considering that Friendship is a "fantasy"... LOL... What kind of reality you live in??? We seem to inhabit two absolutely different realities and such thing has nothing to do with "mysticism".

JDP
04-10-2017, 05:54 AM
Gosh... Friendship is an ontological category, but even an empiricist can understand it and have friends.
To be honest, sharing among friends is VERY usual and it's not even related to any kind of "mysticism".
Other than that, the small "scene" (damn, I wish I had a more fluent English, the word "scene" is atrocious) of Hermeticism is one of the kindest ones in many different senses.

I was just talking to an alchemist from Spain... and since my girlfriend was having troubles with finding a house there, he said: "She can stay at home till she finds one".
We talked about some places to go once I travel there and he said "You can visit a lot of places using my car, I have no problems in giving you my car".

Friendship and kindness are not even "mystical", JDP... nor they are a fantasy.
(I have also hosted persons into Hermeticism and Art MANY times at my house for free... and it was not something I've done to gain "karma points").

I got used to your "I am a realist, an empiricist" ways... That's OK. But considering that Friendship is a "fantasy"... LOL... What kind of reality you live in??? We seem to inhabit two absolutely different realities and such thing has nothing to do with "mysticism".

Did that "alchemist" friend openly teach you or your girlfriend how to make the Stone? Nope. And even if he knew how to, he wouldn't. It is not the same thing as lending you his car or offering a room of his house. It's just not on the same level. Not even the best friend will give you his winning lottery ticket so you can cash it and profit from it instead of him. And he would expect you to do the same if you were the one who had it.

Axismundi000
04-10-2017, 08:02 AM
Did that "alchemist" friend openly teach you or your girlfriend how to make the Stone? Nope. And even if he knew how to, he wouldn't. It is not the same thing as lending you his car or offering a room of his house. It's just not on the same level. Not even the best friend will give you his winning lottery ticket so you can cash it and profit from it instead of him. And he would expect you to do the same if you were the one who had it.

Even the most valuable secrets if they are employed over a period of time are eventually revealed or discovered by others. By now the stone would have also if all it needed was a purely empirical procedure. For example for several hundred years BC the Hittites had steel then eventually the other cultures learned how to make it. The concept of the Philosophers stone has been around for what...... more about 2000 years. I suspect if it were a purely empirical thing it would have been discovered and made commonly available like penicillin was. Guys in labs like to backward engineer stuff my wife before she met me was dating a guy who worked in a lab. They all used to work out stuff like the recipe for Baileys cream liquor or Worcester sauce etc, the small differences that made these things distinctive. Just one small sample of the stone in the hands of one of these guys and they would all jump in and get to work on it. Even if they had a very small amount and couldn't test it much that would be it, they would be on a mission. Your supposition that it would be kept secret for selfish motives is not provable JDP. There are too many examples of altruistic behaviour in various cultures as well as religious convictions personally held by individuals which would mean that they would 'for the love of Jesus or Buddha or Allah share this with the larger group. From such the methodology would then propagate further just as antibiotics have which is shown by the build up of resistance to antibiotics in various diseases. In fact JDP it could be argued that your assertion of universal human selfishness is contrary to evidence, there are many examples of group and personal altruism, both religious and humanistic oriented. Therefore the existence of a universal Mercury or SM is a reasonable a idea waiting to be proven and the universal human selfishness argument has already been disproven by numerous example of religious and non-religious altruism. Also think of the fame and the figure of historical posterity a person would know they would become, if they showed how to make the universal medicine for 'the benefit of the world', they would become one of the greatest figures in human history (greater than Sir Isaac Newton say). Many would like to be seen as such after they lived even if they lasted 8-9 hundred years thanks to the stone I suspect.

zoas23
04-10-2017, 09:18 AM
Did that "alchemist" friend openly teach you or your girlfriend how to make the Stone?

1. In his case, it was me the one who taught him a few things...
2. My girlfriend is not really into alchemy... She is interested in it, but mostly the general theory. She has other hobbies.


And even if he knew how to, he wouldn't. It is not the same thing as lending you his car or offering a room of his house. It's just not on the same level. Not even the best friend will give you his winning lottery ticket so you can cash it and profit from it instead of him.

Actually ANOTHER alchemist friend offered me to move to a large terrain with different houses (not in my country) and profit from HIS "winning lottery ticket".... An idea I like, though I am a bit afraid of missing this place (my girlfriend is mostly trying to convince me, because she likes the other suggested place).
I have too many planets in the fourth house... So it's a hard choice for me (I am commenting this issue because I take it for granted that you love Astrology).


And he would expect you to do the same if you were the one who had it.

LOL... Actually those who are my true friends perfectly know that they should expect from me exactly the opposite.

For some reason this whole thing made me remember of two dead strangers who acted like friends with me.
I needed a recording studio in London and someone to mix the recorded sounds (for a movie). I wrote to them asking for some advice, they offered to record my friend and mix the result, everything for free (quite non important artists, they have only designed the album covers & videos & have mixed for some bands such as Pink Floyd, the Sex Pistols, Robert Plant, etc)... When I received the CD with the result, they have written a phrase by Tennessee Williams: "Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers".
Since they have made the soundtrack of my favorite film, there was a surprise in the CD: Some isolated sounds that they have composed and recorded for that movie... as to link my movie with my favorite film. Such thing had more value to me than pure gold.

Wittgenstein taught me something too:

"If good or bad willing changes the world, it can only change the limits of the world, not the facts; not the things that can be expressed in language. In brief, the world must thereby become quite another. It must so to speak wax or wane as a whole. The world of the happy man is a different one from that of the unhappy man"

... but going back to the two dead friends who wrote for me that phrase by Williams, I have always learnt a lot from them... One of the things I've learnt from them is that constant shallowness leads to evil... I do not eat or drink that decadent & symmetrical drug.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulF3ivgtUHo

By the way... the first time I saw the solid solvent that obsessed you that completely eats the gold... it was given to me by a friend, who requested something in exchange from me: NOTHING.

My French friend who sent me an XVII century alchemical manuscript that only the two of us have and gave me his permission to publish it... he requested for doing such thing the fortune of NOTHING (he also sent me works of art valued in 6,000 Euros, but they got lost in the mail... so he sent again OTHER works with the same value.).

some time ago I requested a medicine for a friend... An anonymous member of this forum made the medicine and sent it for free, even covering the expenses himself. Even taking the legal risk himself because it had to cross the US customs disguised as something else.

You assume too much... but we live in very different realities and it's not due to any mystical reason.

Awani
04-10-2017, 12:41 PM
Not even the best friend will give you his winning lottery ticket so you can cash it and profit from it instead of him.

Well says more about having you as a friend, or about your experience with friends, than what it says about humanity. It is always greater to give than to receive.

You might think I live in a fantasy world, and you are right in thinking that... but what you will never seem to comprehend is that you are also living in one.

The difference is that I am aware of it and can use it to my advantage, rather than be a leaf blowing in the wind.

I am not trying to change your mind. That is not my job. And it is not that I reject your ideas because I want to be right. The fact is all your ideas are ideas I held myself in the past. I know exactly your reasoning and logic because I too held those same "beliefs". That is why I feel I can see your perspective as well as mine, and compare the two. That is why I know that I am right, even if being right is impossible in a relative universe.

The reason I keep replying to your posts is for all the readers who read these public threads. Because there is another path a human can walk... that leads to paradise on Earth and it does not require money, career, education, intelligence or even experience. All it requires is a choice. A choice between love and hate, between generosity and greed... compassion or apathy... awareness or ignorance. But it is not an easy choice to make. I know from experience that the dark side is way easier and at first glance a lot more attractive.

However it leads nowhere. ;)

:cool:

JDP
04-10-2017, 04:52 PM
Well says more about having you as a friend, or about your experience with friends, than what it says about humanity. It is always greater to give than to receive.

You might think I live in a fantasy world, and you are right in thinking that... but what you will never seem to comprehend is that you are also living in one.

The difference is that I am aware of it and can use it to my advantage, rather than be a leaf blowing in the wind.

I am not trying to change your mind. That is not my job. And it is not that I reject your ideas because I want to be right. The fact is all your ideas are ideas I held myself in the past. I know exactly your reasoning and logic because I too held those same "beliefs". That is why I feel I can see your perspective as well as mine, and compare the two. That is why I know that I am right, even if being right is impossible in a relative universe.

The reason I keep replying to your posts is for all the readers who read these public threads. Because there is another path a human can walk... that leads to paradise on Earth and it does not require money, career, education, intelligence or even experience. All it requires is a choice. A choice between love and hate, between generosity and greed... compassion or apathy... awareness or ignorance. But it is not an easy choice to make. I know from experience that the dark side is way easier and at first glance a lot more attractive.

However it leads nowhere. ;)

:cool:

It seems to me that it is you who stepped out of the light of truth and realism and into the darkness of fantasy and wishful thinking. Come back to the light! Accept the world like it really is, and not that idealized fantasy world you have now embraced in a desperate attempt at escapism. Such fantasies are fine for movies and TV shows, but you need to know the distinction between them and the real world. There are no Jedi Knights in the world of reality, dev. Facts won't stop existing just because you don't want to accept them. Step back into reality.

Awani
04-10-2017, 05:02 PM
"Didn't I tell you
not to be satisfied with the veil of this world?
I am the master illusionist,
it is me, who is the welcoming banner at the gate of your contentment."

Rumi

:cool:

JDP
04-10-2017, 05:04 PM
Even the most valuable secrets if they are employed over a period of time are eventually revealed or discovered by others. By now the stone would have also if all it needed was a purely empirical procedure. For example for several hundred years BC the Hittites had steel then eventually the other cultures learned how to make it. The concept of the Philosophers stone has been around for what...... more about 2000 years. I suspect if it were a purely empirical thing it would have been discovered and made commonly available like penicillin was. Guys in labs like to backward engineer stuff my wife before she met me was dating a guy who worked in a lab. They all used to work out stuff like the recipe for Baileys cream liquor or Worcester sauce etc, the small differences that made these things distinctive. Just one small sample of the stone in the hands of one of these guys and they would all jump in and get to work on it. Even if they had a very small amount and couldn't test it much that would be it, they would be on a mission. Your supposition that it would be kept secret for selfish motives is not provable JDP. There are too many examples of altruistic behaviour in various cultures as well as religious convictions personally held by individuals which would mean that they would 'for the love of Jesus or Buddha or Allah share this with the larger group. From such the methodology would then propagate further just as antibiotics have which is shown by the build up of resistance to antibiotics in various diseases. In fact JDP it could be argued that your assertion of universal human selfishness is contrary to evidence, there are many examples of group and personal altruism, both religious and humanistic oriented. Therefore the existence of a universal Mercury or SM is a reasonable a idea waiting to be proven and the universal human selfishness argument has already been disproven by numerous example of religious and non-religious altruism. Also think of the fame and the figure of historical posterity a person would know they would become, if they showed how to make the universal medicine for 'the benefit of the world', they would become one of the greatest figures in human history (greater than Sir Isaac Newton say). Many would like to be seen as such after they lived even if they lasted 8-9 hundred years thanks to the stone I suspect.

If I had to believe such arguments I would still be as ignorant about the reality of transmutation as I was once upon a time, when I too assumed that no such thing could have escaped the mythological all-pervasive knowledge and experience of modern chemists and physicists. Alas, it turned out that reality is quite different than those guys try to present it to the world, where their word is supposedly the "law". Contrary to their assumptions and assertions, transmutation is quite real. So chemists and physicists definitely do not know it all. They are in fact heavily indoctrinated into believing their own theories and speculations too. And I don't even have to bring up something as difficult to investigate and discover as transmutation to illustrate how difficult can be to discover an "empirical thing". Even something more "mundane" can be quite challenging to discover. Take Damascus steel, for example. Up until relatively recently, modern metallurgists and chemists still did not know how exactly did people 1000 years ago make it. And they had plenty of samples of it still around for them to try to analyze. Now, if it took them such a long time to finally discover how did those guys make that type of steel centuries ago, imagine discovering something way more difficult to figure out, like "particular" transmutations or the Philosophers' Stone. So rest assured that just because something is an "empirical thing" it does not mean that it will get easily discovered.

Axismundi000
04-10-2017, 05:37 PM
Your argument has some valid points which you back up with examples JDP. However it is merely an argument like mine and either one could turn out to be closer to the truth. Neither are clearly and provably empirically valid. The assumption that the stone has yet to be properly discovered is feasible but the assumption that people are universally selfish is not true.

Also to use the analogy of damascene'd steel whilst the twisting and quenching in a slave and later the same just quenched in soggy leather and urine may not have been properly appreciated by the nations who were on the receiving end of keen Damascus steel; other nations were making steel swords though not as good. If the stone was a purely empirical pursuit surely the same would occur, partial successes or stones of low multiplication would emerge but they do not.

JDP
04-10-2017, 11:39 PM
Your argument has some valid points which you back up with examples JDP. However it is merely an argument like mine and either one could turn out to be closer to the truth. Neither are clearly and provably empirically valid. The assumption that the stone has yet to be properly discovered is feasible but the assumption that people are universally selfish is not true.

Also to use the analogy of damascene'd steel whilst the twisting and quenching in a slave and later the same just quenched in soggy leather and urine may not have been properly appreciated by the nations who were on the receiving end of keen Damascus steel; other nations were making steel swords though not as good. If the stone was a purely empirical pursuit surely the same would occur, partial successes or stones of low multiplication would emerge but they do not.

But you underestimate the reliance of alchemy on the secret "water", "mercury" or solvent. Without this it is just impossible to prepare either the Stone/Elixir or any other transmuting "tincture". So as long as chemistry continues to fail to discover it, it will continue to ignore how to make either the Stone or any other "tincture" related to it and keep on concluding that the whole thing is "impossible". And the reason why chemistry keeps "failing" to discover this has a lot more to do with their ASSUMPTIONS about the subject than with anything else. What we can properly call "chemistry" (as opposed to "alchemy", and also the "chymistry" of the 17th-18th century, which unlike "chemistry" was well aware of the reality of transmutation) has been around for a bit more than 200 years, and in all that time I have not seen even one of its practitioners publish a systematic empirical investigation of the subject of "alchemy". What you can see in its literature is a lot of ASSUMPTIONS based on the lab techniques and reactions that they know about. For example, they often conclude that transmutation is "impossible" based on such vulgar reactions as the reduction of a copper sulfate solution with a piece of iron. They quickly conjure up the names of several "alchemists" (most of whom were in fact not really "alchemists") who thought this was a "transmutation" of iron into copper when in fact it was only a precipitation of the copper already contained in the vitriolic solutions (this explanation, ironically, was first made by several alchemists and chymists who defended transmutation; look for example at how von Suchten in his treatise on antimony refers to it simply as a REDUCTION of the copper contained in the vitriolic solution, not any "transmutation" of the iron into copper. So it is not any "triumph" of "chemistry" over "alchemy" by any means, like chemists like to pretend it is. In fact, chemistry itself PLAGIARIZED the very explanation from the "chymical" literature of the 17th-18th century, made by "chymists" WHO OTHERWISE WERE TOTALLY CONVINCED OF THE REALITY OF TRANSMUTATION. The irony is just too hilarious!) Chemists just LOVE using these kinds of HISTORICAL ERRORS as supposed "proof" against alchemy/transmutation. And even then I can tell you that by using several of the ordinary lab techniques that chemists are perfectly familiar with YOU CAN STILL OBTAIN SMALL AMOUNTS OF SILVER OR GOLD WHERE THERE WERE NONE BEFORE by appropriately employing them on the right substances. So the probability of chemistry ever discovering something like the Stone on its own, by its own theories, assumptions and experimental methods is just extremely slim. I wouldn't hold my breath on this expectation, unless you can live without air for probably the next, say, FEW THOUSAND YEARS OR SO (and maybe then they will have discovered it purely by accident, mind you, not because of any particularly keen insight or deduction on the subject from their part.)

Axismundi000
04-11-2017, 12:12 AM
I appreciate your view is sincere JDP. As I have similarly mentioned previous I would be delighted if you proved me wrong and found a solely empirical and replicatable method. I wish you every success.

JDP
04-11-2017, 12:29 AM
I appreciate your view is sincere JDP. As I have similarly mentioned previous I would be delighted if you proved me wrong and found a solely empirical and replicatable method. I wish you every success.

I already told you, some "chymists" wrote real transmutation processes or truthful general remarks on them in plain words that anyone can repeat and replicate. How else do you think I "discovered" the empirical reality of transmutation? It sure wasn't any little "angel" with a harp coming down from "heaven" and handing me down a "recipe" or whispering instructions into my head while I was sound asleep. Nope. Sorry to burst your romanticized fantasy bubbles, but far from it. It was done through careful investigation of actual written sources, written by actual real flesh & blood men, and sheer empiricism: trial and error, systematic elimination of a lot of the nonsense and phony processes that those very same "chymists" plagued their books with as a protective measure to make it as difficult as possible for neophytes to get to the truth. Nothing else works. You will never get anywhere near the truth by any other means, as there aren't any. I am telling you this so that you do not waste your time waiting for things that just aren't going to happen. If you want to discover any truths regarding such subjects you will have to do the hard work. There are no "shortcuts".

Kiorionis
04-11-2017, 12:42 AM
Sorry to burst your romanticized fantasy bubbles, but far from it. It was done through careful investigation of actual written sources, written by actual real flesh & blood men, and sheer empiricism: trial and error, systematic elimination of a lot of the nonsense and phony processes that those very same "chymists" plagued their books with as a protective measure to make it as difficult as possible for neophytes to get to the truth. Nothing else works.

Completely agree. The Scientific Method is superior to Delusions :cool:

Schmuldvich
04-11-2017, 01:57 AM
I already told you, some "chymists" wrote real transmutation processes or truthful general remarks on them in plain words that anyone can repeat and replicate. How else do you think I "discovered" the empirical reality of transmutation? It sure wasn't any little "angel" with a harp coming down from "heaven" and handing me down a "recipe" or whispering instructions into my head while I was sound asleep. Nope. Sorry to burst your romanticized fantasy bubbles, but far from it. It was done through careful investigation of actual written sources, written by actual real flesh & blood men, and sheer empiricism: trial and error.

If you are willing, can you share an example or two of what you have physically been able to accomplish worthwhile with Alchemy?

...I considered sending this via PM but figure asking publicly couldn't hurt.

JDP
04-11-2017, 06:05 AM
If you are willing, can you share an example or two of what you have physically been able to accomplish worthwhile with Alchemy?

...I considered sending this via PM but figure asking publicly couldn't hurt.

I think you already know what the answer is, but just in case: not possible to share this in a totally clear manner. The preparation of the alchemical "water" is something still under research/investigation and the more detailed information about this must be kept secret. I am not in the business of "prostituting" alchemy, or at least not yet (before I have had time to make a very nice profit from it; consider it a fair payment for all the troubles and expenditure that investigating this subject has given me over the years.) All I can tell you is that I know how to produce a series of "stinking" (notice how persistent some old alchemists are about the strong/bad/foul smell of their "water" at some point of the operations; Llull and his followers, for example, keep referring to their "stinking menstruums") liquid substances from CERTAIN SOLID REACTIONS BETWEEN CERTAIN SOLID SUBSTANCES. It all looks very "alchemical" when compared to many of the descriptions and the genuine clues in the old texts, indeed. Even the "swelling" of the alchemical "matter" is easily seen in most of these mixtures while they are undergoing treatment. All these details lead me to strongly suspect that these mixtures are the real "Magnesia", or "Chaos", or "Sericon", or "Adrop", or "Antimony", or "Saturn", or "Black Lead", or "Azoquean Vitriol", or "Tartar", or whatever-other-decknamen-you-want-to-call-it of the alchemists, and not some simple/single natural mineral, as some quite incorrectly and naively have thought. There just is no such single substance in nature that can perform what the alchemists describe in their texts and is capable of giving you their secret "humidity" or "water". Nature does NOT make either the Stone or the initial mixtures with which its "water" can be prepared. The whole thing relies on some secret mixtures of certain substances, which the operator himself puts together in the right proportions and proceeds to operate on, certainly NOT something that you can find already made in nature and ready to be used "as is" (how very convenient! You might as well tell those that you want to mislead that if you pay for the postage, nature will also send it to your mailbox and you won't even have to bother going out there looking for this will-o'-the-wisp!), as many malicious and envious alchemists like to insinuate or even clearly say to make "unworthy" seekers waste their time and money in wild goose chases after something that nature is actually quite incapable of making on its own. I repeat: nature does NOT know how to make the Stone or its proximate components (viz. the "water/mercury" and the "earth/sulphur"), it can only provide the raw or "remote" matters for man to make these things. It is up to you, then, to compose this "Magnesia" (out of several substances that nature can provide you with, but nowadays man's industry can also provide you with these substances as well); this part is NOT nature's work but YOUR work. So all seekers who take the unrealistic "one matter only" death-trap uncritically and at face value are simply lost and will never find anything regarding this "water" and the reactions which give it birth.

Schmuldvich
04-11-2017, 10:03 PM
I think you already know what the answer is, but just in case: not possible to share this in a totally clear manner. The preparation of the alchemical "water" is something still under research/investigation and the more detailed information about this must be kept secret.

I am not in the business of "prostituting" alchemy.

I can tell you is that I know how to produce a series of "stinking" liquid substances from CERTAIN SOLID REACTIONS BETWEEN CERTAIN SOLID SUBSTANCES.

Cool, thank you very much for sharing!

....I have qualms with what you state at the end of your post regarding Nature, finding, and making the Philosopher's Stone but you and I have already discussed this at length elsewhere, so no need to rehash this with ya over and over. Again, thank you for responding. I look forward to hearing about what you discover with your endeavors, JDP!

JDP
04-11-2017, 10:22 PM
Cool, thank you very much for sharing!

....I have qualms with what you state at the end of your post regarding Nature, finding, and making the Philosopher's Stone but you and I have already discussed this at length elsewhere, so no need to rehash this with ya over and over. Again, thank you for responding. I look forward to hearing about what you discover with your endeavors, JDP!

Just remember that through the centuries countless legions of seekers put just about any simple substance found in nature to treatment by itself, and none found what the alchemists described. That "one matter only" trap could work into fooling many people centuries ago because nature was still not more thoroughly explored back in those times, so for many people it was easy to still believe that there was some largely unknown natural substance out there that could respond to all the descriptions the alchemists made. But we live in an age where the accumulated experience of all those centuries can easily expose this claim as the pure nonsense that it is. No such natural substance has been found anywhere, and that's simply because it does not exist in nature. The alchemist himself makes it. It's an artificial composite. Nature is quite incapable of making it. And why would nature even need to make it if in fact itself does not make the Stone/Elixir either? This silly trap easily dismantles itself for any person possessed of sound critical sense and logic. It can't withstand even superficial scrutiny.

Schmuldvich
04-12-2017, 02:29 AM
This Royal Art seems to be open only to those, in relation to the Magnum Opus, who approach it without any intention of betrayal, exploitation, so forth. That's why few enter the inner chamber. Don't you take off your shoes when you enter your friend's home? The type of intimate relationship(s) one has is very telling of the distance one can take in alchemy, I believe.



Before starting on the path, I received several strong warnings! that I should not under any circumstances discuss my alchemical practice. OR, certain very important doors of my path will remain closed; in terms of making magisterium medicine, palingenesis, etc. So, I took the clear warnings well, and try to blend into complete anonymity.


The more I advance, the less interested I am of humanity, and their fights, games, emotional turmoil, the using of other groups to fight against, showing that one is big, right, smarter, etc. I have deep love for the people in my life, but I also have enough love to be also allowing, being in a state of disinterestedness.

Another quote that I recently found from Dubuis, also explains it better than I could say, ". . . if part of creation has been made invisible to the layman it is by necessity and whoever wants or begins to contact the Invisible should not show it to the layman" (p.141).

Really well put. The more I advance the less interested I am with society (which was already almost nil to begin with).








Philosophers have expressed themselves only by similitudes and figures, as I have told you.

This they did, so that the science might not be discovered by the ignorant, which if it should once happen, all were lost: but that it might be comprehended only by those patient souls, and subtilised understandings.

Upon this ground was it that they were pleased to speak by figures, types, and analogies, that so they might not be understood except by such as are discreet, religious, and enlightened by (divine) Wisdom. All which notwithstanding, they have left in their writings a certain method, way and rule, by the assistance whereof, the wise man may comprehend whatever they have written most obscurely and in time arrive at the knowledge of it, though happily wading through some error, as I have done, praised be God for it.

And whereas the vulgar ignorant person ought to submit to these reasons, and consequently adore, what is too great, to enter into his brain, he on the contrary accuses the philosophers of imposture and impiety, by which means and the scarcity of wise men, the art falls into contempt.

"The True Book Of The Learned Greek Abbot Synesius", 1612



Jealous Sages have named many waters and metals and stones, simply for the purpose of deceiving you; herein the philosophers would warn us that they have used secrecy, lest the whole mystery should be manifested before all the world.

Those who follow the letter of their directions are sure to be led astray, and to miss entirely the true foundation of our Art. The fault, however, lies not with the Sages so much as with the ignorance of their readers.

"Glory Of The World", 1526




Our Art has fallen into disrepute, as I have said, through the stupidity and - dishonesty of many of its professors. They are ignorant mechanics who, not having skill and brains enough for an honest trade, must needs meddle with our Art, and, of course, soon lose all they possess. Others, again are only just less ignorant than these persons; they are in too great a hurry to make gold before they have mastered even the rudiments of natural science; of course they fail, spend all they have, borrow money from their friends, amuse themselves and others with hopes of infinite wealth, learn to talk a barbarous semiphilosophical jargon, and afford a capital handle to those who have an interest in abusing our Art. Again, there are others who really have a true knowledge of the secret, but who grudge others the light which has irradiated their own path; and who therefore write about it in hopelessly puzzling language, which the perplexed beginner cannot possibly understand. To this class belong Geber, Arnold, and Lullius, who would have done much better service to the student, if they had never dipped pen in ink. The consequence is that every one who takes up this study at once finds himself lost in a most perplexing labyrinth of falsehood and uncertainty, in which he has no clue.

I will therefore try to give him some sound advice as to the best way of accomplishing his object.

In the first place, let him carry on his operations with great secrecy in order that no scornful or scurrilous person may know of them; for nothing discourages the beginner so much as the mockery, taunts, and well-meant advice of foolish outsiders.

Moreover, if he does not succeed, secrecy will save him from derision; if he does succeed, it will safeguard him against the persecution of greedy and cruel tyrants.

In the second place, he who would succeed in the study of this Art, should be persevering, industrious, learned, gentle, good-tempered, a close student, and neither easily discouraged nor slothful; he may work in co-operation with one friend, not more, but should be able to keep his own counsel; it is also necessary that he should have a little capital to procure the necessary implements etc., and to provide himself with food and clothing while he follows this study, so that his mind may be undistracted by care and anxiety.

Above all, let him be honest, God-fearing, prayerful, and holy. Being thus equipped, he should study Nature, read the books of genuine Sages, who are neither impostors nor jealous churls, and study them day and night; let him not be too eager to carry out every idea practically before he has thoroughly tested it, and found it to be in harmony not only with the teaching of all the Sages, but - also of Nature herself. Not until then let him gird himself for the practical part of the work, and let him constantly modify his operations until he sees the signs which are described by the Sages.

"Metamorphosis Of Metals", 1668

Luxus
05-04-2017, 03:53 PM
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. […] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown

Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates; and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them

Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were in heaven, which men were striving to learn

there arose much godlessness

The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin

One of the weaknesses of humans is that they like to blame others whenever possible but it was clearly the humans who began to abuse the knowledge they were given.

Humans have a lower animal nature which opens them up to abusing knowledge.

So from the beginning the reasons why "though should not cast pearls before swine" is because they will abuse the knowledge.

One thing you must remember is that one who possesses the philosophers stone in endowed with supernatural ability's. Can you imagine what the average lowlife on the street would do if they had such ability's...they would use it for all the lower purposes. As for the person who revealed this knowledge they must reap the karma that the abuser creates by its misuse.