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Awani
12-13-2009, 04:10 AM
I discussed this at another forum almost two years ago... I will copy it here because I am interested in this concept and would like to discuss it further...

I have for as long as I can recall been anti-democracy... that is I feel that the democratic nations are in need of taking the next step. Now places like Iraq need democracy first before they can proceed to this next state. But we, here in the so-called free world (where most of us are from I think) need something new. What about Noocracy?


Noocracy, or aristocracy of the wise, as defined by Plato, is a social and political system that is based on the priority of human mind... - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noocracy)

I guess there is always a danger for there to become an elite of great minds... but then again that wouldn't be too wise so it would then seize to be a Noocracy.

http://www.celestial-art.net/wallpaper-digital-art-fractal-the-noosphere-apophysis.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere)

:cool:

Awani
12-13-2009, 04:12 AM
One of the original aspects of the noosphere concept deals with evolution. Henri Bergson (1907) was one of the first to propose that evolution is creative and cannot necessarily be explained solely by Darwinian natural selection. - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere#History_of_concept)

This is something I have always felt; there is something wrong with Darwin - as is all forms of dogma - but the Creationism (or Intelligent Design for that matter) is not my cup of tea either.


L'ťvolution crťatrice is upheld, according to Bergson, by a constant vital force that animates life and fundamentally connects mind and body, an idea opposing the dualism of Renť Descartes. - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere#History_of_concept)
http://www.duversity.org/images/12-1.gif
In the original theory of Vernadsky, the noosphere is the third in a succession of phases of development of the Earth, after the geosphere (inanimate matter) and the biosphere (biological life). Just as the emergence of life fundamentally transformed the geosphere, the emergence of human cognition fundamentally transforms the biosphere. In contrast to the conceptions of the Gaia theorists, or the promoters of cyberspace, Vernadsky's noosphere emerges at the point where humankind, through the mastery of nuclear processes, begins to create resources through the transmutation of elements. - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere)

:cool:

LeoRetilus
12-13-2009, 05:05 AM
I think this has the potential to become a highly intelligent and philosophical discussion , I like it.

I 've never heard of these theories but have many times envisioned the same thing , that it was the only logically feasible future for mankind, if he survives, and his present state evolves without set back.

In fact a had dream about it a couple of years ago....It was so vibrant and coherent, almost like a movie that I chose to write it down upon awaking... The world had passed away and only a handful of people had survived, it was a small enough mass that they all lived in the same city state. And while civilization suffered a great setback technologically, they chose not to repeat the same mistakes of the past and instead of setting up a democratic state , the mass was ruled by a council of wise men. In the dream I interpreted this council of wise men as incorruptable souls, that were appointed and not elected . In fact the first were appointed by God after the destruction. After that apprentices were chosen to succeed them, out of the masses. But I do remember in the dream that evil still existed, not in the soul or the nature of man but in a carnate form. The fallen one himself had come to tempt mankind one last time, disguised as one of us, he came to sit on the council. Interesting

I like the graphic as well in the fact that the technological singularity and the birth of language originate from the same mathematical zero x axis, it seems appropriate.Oddly enough I thought of somehow incorporating a triangle like that one into a logo for the forum. I wonder the significance of the 3,6,and 9, Tesla said that those numbers were the keys to the universe. I wonder what he meant.

Awani
12-13-2009, 05:21 AM
Glad you think so...

There are indeed some interesting aspects to it all.


I wonder the significance of the 3,6,and 9, Tesla said that those numbers were the keys to the universe. I wonder what he meant.

See this thread: 369 (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=971)

:cool:

Ghislain
12-13-2009, 09:24 AM
L.R. Your dream and for that matter Dev' your Noocracy points (IMHO) to Islam.

It is a wonderfully utopian idea that we could place learned men in charge of our
day to day routines and they would get it right, but look at it like this:

People from every walk of life have something to offer...some seem to have a
great deal more e.g. Stephen Hawking. He would bring great intelect to the pool,
but, to put it bluntly, can he boil an egg? I dont mean that in a derogatory way,
what I am trying to say is that there are talents of all kinds in all people, to narrow
your choice to intelectuals would be ludicrous.

We have a great system of democracy...what is wrong with it is that we - the people -
think that once we have posted our ballot paper we no longer have any responsibility;
plus we have a great scape goat if things go wrong.

There lies the problem...us.

Ghislain

Awani
12-13-2009, 03:26 PM
I don't think Islam has any relation... it is based on worship of illusions. You know, like 99% of all religions.


We have a great system of democracy...

Do we? Democracy is based on the fact that the majority decide what the minority should do. Who says the majority are reasonable? Look at the history of democracy, just as bloody as any dictatorship.

I don't think we need rulers, even if they are only representative. We need to lead our own lives. Wise leaders would guide, not rule.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/v.jpg (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/goldman/GoldmanCW.html)


There lies the problem...us.
Yes, that is always the case... :p

:cool:

Zephyr
12-13-2009, 03:36 PM
And I should point out, that at least in Canada, this "democracy" does not even amount to the majority ruling... with 5 parties vying for power, the result is a stalemate with the 31% who are backed by dirty oil in "power"... and of course the majority are not always right anyways... it's a bit sick to think that what most people wish to do is the best idea, especially if those people are the product of a "public" education system that has programmed them to be very easily manipulated "consumers". Even when it is publicly espoused, the Majority are never ruling... It's always the people who have the leverage that are ruling the show...

*Z*


I don't think Islam has any relation... it is based on worship of illusions. You know, like 99% of all religions.



Do we? Democracy is based on the fact that the majority decide what the minority should do. Who says the majority are reasonable? Look at the history of democracy, just as bloody as any dictatorship.

I don't think we need rulers, even if they are only representative. We need to lead our own lives. Wise leaders would guide, not rule.


Yes, that is always the case... :p

:cool:

Awani
12-13-2009, 03:43 PM
Even when it is publicly espoused, the Majority are never ruling... It's always the people who have the leverage that are ruling the show...

I was really talking about the concept of democracy, and it's faults... as for how it works in the real world it is indeed as you say.

Noocracy would be a fresh breeze... where I live some high up officials don't even have a college degree... I am not saying they need that to rule, but they should at least be able to read.

:cool:

horticult
12-13-2009, 04:09 PM
2 the deep hell with all ...cracy.
I do need nobody 2 **** up with my life.
Wake up, its the old snare, camouflaged often in utopia and ideals.

Awani
12-13-2009, 04:13 PM
2 the deep hell with all ...cracy.

I do agree with you, but this one does add another dimension as we have the noosphere to consider.

Wisdom and politics is a rare thing... not sure if they will ever mix well?

:cool:

Ghislain
12-14-2009, 12:40 AM
In Islam there are no rulers just wise elders called Imams who
lead and give example to the congregation.
I am not an expert on Islam but it is close to what you are
suggesting that learned men should be in charge. {a loose connection}

Look at Russia and Italy ruled by its respective mafia...
the Columbian drug barons (fortified by the great drug lie -
would you go out and jack up if heroin was legalised??? laughable)
This is democracy gone mad.

The thing is we can see the latter openly. We glorify them in our movies...
wtf is that about? What many fail to see is that the same system operates
behind the scenes in all our countries just less candidly.

All the above exist because of two things...the common personís apathy
and the "powers that be's" corruption and greed. If we don't care why
should they? And remember they are us.

Ask yourself how many times have you actually addressed an issue
with your local council or governing body and if you have how far did you take it?
Match that to how many times you have griped to a friend and done nothing;
whatís the percentage?

How much have the banks just ripped us off for? Donít we deserve it?

I don't know who coined the phrase but itís a good one..."if you donít stand
for something you will fall for anything"...donít you think that is the majority?

I do not apologise for the negativity here...it is human nature to try and blame
others before we look inward. If I see a wrong doing I do complain and I do it
in writing to those in authority and even if I donít get anywhere at least I have
the knowledge that they know Iím watching :)

Ghislain (on the soap box)

P.S. give democracy a hand ;)

Awani
12-14-2009, 03:59 PM
I am not an expert on Islam but it is close to what you are suggesting that learned men should be in charge. {a loose connection}

This is not what I think Noocracy is. Wise men... men (and women) like Pythagoras, wise like that. Imam's and Pope's are about as wise as my asshole! :p


would you go out and jack up if heroin was legalised?
No and that is my point... heroin can be legal, it is not the law that stops wise people from taking it. People need to be held responsible for their own lives. Fuck all this socialistic crap. Get off your ass and do something... doesn't mean those in need should not be helped, but it does mean WEAK people should not disempower the STRONG.


Ask yourself how many times have you actually addressed an issue
with your local council or governing body and if you have how far did you take it?
I do this a lot... but ears are deaf sadly. That is why violent revolutions happen, because the rulers don't listen and the people loose patience.


I don't know who coined the phrase but it’s a good one..."if you don’t stand
for something you will fall for anything"...don’t you think that is the majority?

Nice quote there... and I agree.


P.S. give democracy a hand ;)

Not in the West, elsewhere I am all for it!

:cool:

Ghislain
12-14-2009, 10:50 PM
Imam's and Pope's are about as wise as my asshole!

At last...someone with a wise asshole! ;)

Ghislain

P.S. I'm not sure if I made myself clear...I am in favour of drug legalisation.
It would take the power out of the hands of the criminal fraternity and
people could be sure (better informed) of what they were putting in their bodies.

Dizardos
12-16-2009, 12:58 PM
Democracies are led purely by emotion. It has been too long ago that rulers were chosen for their contribution to the greater good instead of their 'perceived' likability. All democracies are led purely by emotion, and thus too easy to manipulate in order to be considered a stable force. Consider all the recent wars that were initiated on an emotional basis where serious evidence for the 'preemptive strike' was always lacking or later considered incorrect. It speaks for itself just as the following words of Socrates:

"What could have been more ridiculous than a mob-led, passion-ridden democracy, a government by a debating society..... Is it not a base superstition that mere numbers will give wisdom? On the contrary is it not universally seen that men in crowds are more foolish and more violent....than men separate and alone?" - Socrates

The wise men Plato had in mind are not our average 'wise' men.

"Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, and political greatness and wisdom meet in one, and those commoner natures who pursue either to the exclusion of the other are compelled to stand aside, cities will never have rest from their evils - no, nor the human race, as I believe - and then only will this our State have a possibility of life and behold the light of day." - Plato

There is nevertheless a serious gap in leadership that has to be filled in order to make such an Utopia possible. The red Illuminati is only a pale shadow of its former glory. The more materialistic black and white Illuminati are destroying the very blueprints that have been laid down by the Architects of society. It happened in the past and it is happening once more.

Lasting societies are built upon pillars of strength. It consists of giving and taking. Proper education has many similarities to the mating ritual of certain spiders (strange as this simile sounds), where the smaller male spider has to execute a special dance in the web of the much larger female spider in order to multiply. One misstep and he will be eaten by her and even a perfect executed dance is not always good enough.... A lesser extent of power is always better when the responsibility is lacking either way. Children might still have access to weapons, but at least access to the greatest weapons can be denied which ironically happens to be the greatest cure too. It is thus that certain Philosophers say: "Humanity deserves exactly what it is getting" until everything that should be learned has been mastered. Their requirements will not be lowered. Humanity must ascend instead.

A difficult road is certainly ahead, but then again every period in history had its difficulties and within those difficulties lie great opportunities as well.

Awani
12-16-2009, 03:58 PM
Good post D... could not have said it better myself.


A difficult road is certainly ahead, but then again every period in history had its difficulties and within those difficulties lie great opportunities as well.

And with great power comes great responsibility... ;)

Donna Matrix
04-30-2010, 04:14 AM
Fascinating thread gentlemen aand ladies(?). I thought aout this very thing many year sago. ii actually started to write a book about my ideas. i called it sophocracy. Only people who volunteered would be allowed to vote. I ahve done alot of this in my ylife, and it has its own alchemy. Giving of ones self instead of just thinking about it has a deeply transformative effect on someone. The sense of service that is actualized propels self actualization. When coupled withspiritual practice, i believe it is personally and socially transformational. You can never really legislate a change of attitude or consciousness, but by a slight change of rules, things can be deeply changed.

The sad reality is that the vast majority of humanity in any given period are deeply unconscious and unwise sometimes in the extreme. Yet they have always done the best they know how given their circumstances. Sometimes the harsh edge of the intellect needs the heart to trluy gain wisdom and compassion. This is the love that God has for us and we should strive to perfect in ouselves especially in regard to others.

None of us are ever free as long as we are in physical bodies.

Andro
06-06-2014, 10:47 AM
The Knowable Universe is hierarchical in nature, but sure, we can deny this as much as we want - it still won't change it :)

Some people are more advanced/'evolved' (not necessarily in a Darwinian way) than others. Some entities are far more advanced/evolved than people.

What if we are already in a Noocracy of sorts?

What if it is such 'wise men' (unseen/unknown to us) who understood that this is exactly what 'majorities' can handle, and that most people deserve what they get and each other?

Governments, religions, accepted norms/morality, etc are exoteric and they function and (IMO) serve their purpose quite efficiently for those for whom they are intended.

There are however, those (unseen & unknown) who live by a 'Higher Law'. This is still law, however of an inner/higher/esoteric nature and not subject to the 'Lower Law' of the masses.

The popular 10 commandments and other biblical regulations (for example) are typical examples for exoteric laws.

Stuff like "Worship your god, make babies and try not to kill each other too much, only just enough to keep the wheels turning :)".

Esoteric/Hermetic Higher Law is quite different, and not meant for the uninitiated or the 'half-wise' who believe they're so special they 'deserve better'...
________________________________

Reading this back, it may come across a bit 'harsh', but this is what I intended to convey nevertheless.

Eshai
06-06-2014, 12:08 PM
Sounds like a conspiracy theory, Androgynus. The government is too much of a cluster f&$# to organize such a complex, beautiful web of deceit and intrigue. Then again, that would be what they'd want us to think. ;)