PDA

View Full Version : Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Alchemy



Seraph
12-18-2009, 12:01 AM
I've seen mention of sexual alchemy- What about fetishes, or asexuality, or homosexuality? Do they fit in anywhere in Alchemy, and if so, where? If the point the physical act of the sex or the spiritual connection between a couple?

Awani
12-18-2009, 02:35 PM
Not sure about Fetishsm and such things, but sexual alchemy, tantra etc. does not really have to be a man and a woman. Two sexual and spiritual beings is all it takes. I think some of the famous alchemists were homosexual or at least bi... can't recall which ones since it is not important. All beings are bi (imho), like it or not. ;)

:cool:

Andro
12-18-2009, 03:06 PM
Not sure about Fetishsm and such things, but sexual alchemy, tantra etc. does not really have to be a man and a woman. Two sexual and spiritual beings is all it takes.

I appreciate your writing that! You may wish to read my last post in the 'Bollywood' thread, especially the last part.


I think some of the famous alchemists were homosexual or at least bi... :cool:

And not by coincidence :)

You've made my day with this post.

Thank you!

Awani
12-18-2009, 05:17 PM
I've seen mention of sexual alchemy- What about fetishes, or asexuality, or homosexuality?

I changed the title of this thread to Sexual orientation and Alchemy because it makes it more clear and diverse (good subject btw).


And this in an Alchemy forum, so there's an Alchemical angle to this: The true Alchemical marriage is the marriage between the polarities within ourselves. Looking for the opposite polarity outside ourselves (the 'hetero' Modus Operandi) is basically looking outside ourselves for something we (falsely) percieve to be lacking within.

Yin-yang and man/woman... it is easy to see from where the symbolism comes, but it doesn't make it the decisive answer. We once had a transvestite alchemist here, but not around anymore, and it didn't seem to impede his Art... one could argue that those that accept their bi-sexuality are closer to a yin-yang rather than a Yin or a Yang... if I can simplify what I mean.

:cool:

solomon levi
12-18-2009, 07:57 PM
In my studies of Gnosticism, I was surprised how it kept returning
to homosexuality, or homosexual acts.

Knights Templar, Jesus and Lazarus, Leonardo da Vinci, Crowley...
the list is long.

There was a time where this was quite accepted and normal. I
would say the majority of history was this way.
Movies like "Alexander" show something of this.
In "Troy", they didn't show the true relation of Achilles and
Patriclus - lovers, not cousins.

I don't know what to make of it.

I think I read something about how the anal sex awakened some
energy or something with the prostate.??

Andro
12-18-2009, 08:35 PM
I think I read something about how the anal sex awakened some energy or something with the prostate.??

True, there is power in having your Virgin Earth imbibed with some high quality bituminous Sulfur, but the key lies not so much in anal sex as it does in same gender affection/romantic love.

Those insights have important Alchemical implications, lab work included. More than this I will gladly discuss with you in private, if you so wish.

horticult
12-20-2009, 03:13 PM
Put 2 homos in the flask and you can wait 4 eternity...

Awani
12-20-2009, 05:14 PM
Put 2 homos in the flask and you can wait 4 eternity...

:confused:

horticult
12-20-2009, 11:36 PM
???


sterile

Andro
12-21-2009, 10:52 PM
Put 2 homos in the flask and you can wait 4 eternity... sterile

Put 2 heteros in a flask, and you'll have the wonderful, paradisical and utopian world we're all living in today ( :eek: :eek: :eek: )

Maybe the phrase 'As Above, So Below' rings a bell ? :D

Mr. Horticult,

Observations such as yours were to be expected. You are where you're at, and that's OK.
We must all pass through these stages throughout our many incarnations on this planet.
Please understand that I make no judgement of values, only of compatibility.

Best of luck with your Great Work.

You'll need it :)

Everyone else,

Alchemy Work is not about putting '2 homos in a flask', as Mr. Horticult charmingly put it. The starting material is One, although heterogenous in its vulgar state (! :p !) - which means it has its own internal polarities separated and conflicted, as a result of social and genetic programming in human beings, for example. The Work is often described as casting off the heterogenous superfluities, cooking One's own internal polarities to a state of perfect marriage, indistinguishable from eachother, or, in other words, homogenous. This goes beyond Yin/Yang - this is True Balance.

Intimacy with another spirit ocuppying a same-gender physical vehicle allows one to experience BOTH polarities inside oneself, without identifying with one of them and without seeking the opposite polarity outside oneself (like heteros do).

The Alchemical Marriage is an internal one, and it's quite unlikely to happen if in your life you seek out the opposite gender polarity to 'complete' you, instead of realizing you are both in one AND acting upon it.

However, if your goal is to have a lot of babies, that's a different story altogether - go for it, there's plenty of room for more :)

I have much more to say on the topic of Homosexuality and Alchemy, but for now I've decided to wait a bit longer before I do so.

solomon levi
12-23-2009, 07:00 PM
Intimacy with another spirit ocuppying a same-gender physical vehicle allows one to experience BOTH polarities inside oneself, without identifying with one of them and without seeking the opposite polarity outside oneself (like heteros do).

The Alchemical Marriage is an internal one, and it's quite unlikely to happen if in your life you seek out the opposite gender polarity to 'complete' you, instead of realizing you are both in one AND acting upon it.




I understand the concept, but the 'not identifying' is not a given, any more than
it is a given in male-female relationships.
Why would same sex relations be any less 'seeking outside of oneself' than
opposite sex relations?

Identifying and seeking are not a product of sexual orientation. They come from
the mind. As long as one identifies with their mind, it doesn't matter how you
shuffle the sexes - there will be lack, seeking and identification.

Seth-Ra
12-27-2009, 09:08 AM
As Above, so Below: both sides are within, mentally/spiritually, and should be outside in the physical also.

Sulphur + Sulphur = more Sulphur.

Sulphur + Mercury = perfected Salt, i.e. Living Seed of the Sun with the Living Egg of the Moon, births the Red Child, both within, and without.

If the Pattern is True, then it works on all levels, if it is not, then it is of no True worth, for Truth is not in it. (Alchemists are seekers of Truth.) "You'll know a tree by its fruits." If it cannot bear fruits, then it is to be chopped down and used as firewood.

Good news is that firewood is needed to fuel the fires of perfection, so "sacrifices must be made", irony is you choose what you are. ;)

~Seth-Ra

Andro
12-27-2009, 11:07 AM
If it cannot bear fruits, then it is to be chopped down and used as firewood.

Good news is that firewood is needed to fuel the fires of perfection, so "sacrifices must be made", irony is you choose what you are. ;)

Any other volunteers for chopping me down and burning me at the stake?

Do you onestly beLIEve that sexual orientation is a matter of choice? Wow ! ! !

Maybe this thread should be renamed "homophobia and alchemy" :D

Mr. Deviadah, your comments?

Ghislain
12-27-2009, 11:44 AM
All is one!

Ghislain

horticult
12-27-2009, 12:18 PM
Any other volunteers for chopping me down and burning me at the stake?

Do not worry, not burning at the stake but CENSORED on the stake.

Awani
12-27-2009, 02:16 PM
I don't think it matters if you are gay or bi or straight... it does not affect the alchemical process one bit. If you are into tantra etc. it works just as well with non-straight sex (as far as I understand).

It is like saying: can I go through an alchemical transmutation if I like pink t-shirts?

It is not important, although interesting.

That is my judgement on sexual orientation and alchemy.

:cool:

PS
Some people choose to be gay!!! The reason they can choose is because everyone is bi-sexual by nature (IMHO)! Especially homophobics!

;)

Awani
12-27-2009, 02:19 PM
On a side-note it is interesting that there are less homophobia amongst women (from my life-experiences)... and it is more accepted for women to go both ways. Could this be more proof about everyones bi-sexuality?

Women have just got further with it than the male population....

:cool:

Just because everyone is bi, doesn't mean everyone acts upon it... I am just saying that I think everyone is bi, just as I think everyone has a heart.

Andro
12-27-2009, 03:11 PM
Some people choose to be gay!!! The reason they can choose is because everyone is bi-sexual by nature (IMHO)! Especially homophobics! ;)

I disagree with the choice thing. We all are where we are on the sexuality scale. Some are completely gay and some are completely het, and most are somewhere along the scale. WHERE along the scale is decided by the way our brains are wired from birth, and it is NOT a matter of choice. HOW/IF we chose to act according to the way we're wired on the scale is a matter of choice. I myself could not chose to be a het for all the chanting in the world. It just doesn't do it for me. I also have no problem with hets being hets.

What I DO have a problem with are statements like the ones above, implying I should be "chopped off and burned" or "censored".

Mr. Deviadah, how you perceive the above statements?

Awani
12-27-2009, 03:26 PM
I disagree with the choice thing.

No I agree with you, I just meant that you can try it out to see if you like it. That is a choice. Also homosexuals who live in hetro relationships choose to do so, even if it is not what they really like.

I guess it comes down to with what we mean with choice.


Mr. Deviadah, how you perceive the above statements?

Yes, but they have their opinion. Fine by me, as long as no one attacks anyone personally.


If the Pattern is True, then it works on all levels, if it is not, then it is of no True worth, for Truth is not in it. (Alchemists are seekers of Truth.) "You'll know a tree by its fruits." If it cannot bear fruits, then it is to be chopped down and used as firewood.


I.E. (as I understand it) depending on the truth the wrong should be burned (doesn't say that homo is wrong, just if).

The censored comment bit I don't get at all...

:cool:

Andro
12-27-2009, 05:04 PM
It's quite difficult to have a constructive discussion among un-like minded... I'm in allowance for everyones opinion (as long as they don't claim I should be chopped and burned or censored for my orientation) - but such opposing views have a tendency to either degrade or become dead ends.

I am very curious if there are other gay/bi alchemists on this forum. If you're there, I'm inviting you to come out and share your views on the topic of your sexual orientation and alchemy.

Awani
12-27-2009, 05:39 PM
It's quite difficult to have a constructive discussion among un-like minded...

Well that is why it is a discussion. ;)


...as long as they don't claim I should be chopped and burned or censored for my orientation...

Yes, no personal attacks please, see Rules & Guidelines (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/announcement.php?f=5&a=3)

:cool:

Seth-Ra
12-27-2009, 07:26 PM
It seems a metaphor I made was taken out of context. I never set any "guidlines" for the metaforical "fruit", I left that for interpretation, for example: ideas, cures, transmutations - these things can be good "fruits".

It would be wise to not come into a "touchy" subject as this with a "victim" mentality, or with feelings on shoulders - it makes for misunderstandings and is not becoming for us who are supposed to be understanding and at peace with all. ;)

With that aside, I'd still like to see proof, both in alchemical texts and Nature that validates the "union of same" and births good fruits from said union. Keep in mind Nature herself isn't infalable as she is "striving towards perfection" and thus currently is not, hence why we have our Art. So to just show that some "flukes" in nature may exivit this behavior, does not show that it is a step in the right direction, again show me texts and examples of nature where the results are seen as Right.
(and so as to not have this used against me I call said behavior a "fluke" in nature because the majority of the creatures who's sexes are as ours, male and female, unite opposites and it is truly rare and odd for two of like kind to do so.)

Dev, I also have to disagree with "everyone is Bi", though I cannot speak for everyone, I myself am a guy and find NO such attraction to other guys at ALL. If my comments are labeled as "homophobic" I don't really care, but I would like to point out that if that is te case, then unless I agree with you, then you think, and label me, as being "afraid" of homosexuality. I'm not one for being "bullied" into agreeing with something I don't. So I think it would be fair to drop all the name calling, and again site fact: Alchemical texts of proper unions, and Nature, and the results of these unions. Otherwise all of this will simply be: "I don't agree with you." | "Well I don't agree with you either." - end. ;)

I'm all for discussing facts and opinions backed by them, even if it ends as everyone shaking hands and disagreeing, but knowing where they stand, and who knows, perhaps with that we could notice diferences in the different "forms" of alchemy. :)

Just a thought. :cool:

~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
12-28-2009, 07:24 AM
Seth'

I can see where you are coming from in the, "I am no way Bi area", but you have to look deeper.

Have you ever had a same sex friend who you really...and I mean really...got on
well with; one who you loved to spend a lot of time with. Many of us have a
friend of the same gender who people joke that ‘they should be a couple’. My
brother-in-law has a friend who my sister calls his wife...they have been friends
since childhood and do everything together. More 'manly' men you could never
meet...to suggest to them they might be Bi would be fighting talk.

Society dictates what we should be; and many of us are not even aware it is
happening. Let me put forward a random premise:

Let’s choose for an example a woman with a lip plate (http://www.jefallbright.net/images/20050804a.gif).
She works in your local bank...you see here every day and find she has a bubbly
personality...she shares the same interests as you...you could be soul mates...you
want to ask here out for a date...but there is one thing stopping you, it's that darn
plate she wears in her mouth. It would be a disaster to be seen out with her,
people would stare.

However if by some strange occurrence you happened to have been adopted at
birth by her tribe and were brought up with their societal perspectives the plate
would be the attracting feature that would make you notice her in the first place.

It is a fact that we carry both male and female characteristics...I have nipples :)
'and a nice pair of legs even if I do say so' He He
So it is not that unlikely that we carry some of the feelings of the other sex too.

The thing is that because of our unwritten taboos (meme's) we suppress them, sometimes
so deeply that we convince ourselves they don’t exist... sometimes to the point
that we find the mere suggestion of them abhorrent.

Ghislain

P.S. There is a stage in our fetal development where both sexes are the same.
Where this change takes place can be seen in men in the form of the Perineal Raphe.
This picture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray1119.png) contains material of a sexual nature. If easily offended do not
click on the link. Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perineal_raphe)

All is one!

Ghislain
12-28-2009, 08:11 AM
(and so as to not have this used against me I call said behavior a "fluke" in nature because the majority of the creatures who's sexes are as ours, male and female, unite opposites and it is truly rare and odd for two of like kind to do so.)

Not so rare or odd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior). Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals).

Seth-Ra
12-28-2009, 09:15 AM
Ghislain,

you make some good points, ill grant you. I do have 1 male friend who is one of my best friends. But friendship in no way means any type of sexual union, if that were the case, then all the girls im friends with, well that would make me a male whore. ;)

You do site occurrences in nature, but 8-15% of total populations still would appear as "flukes" due to the overwhelming number (85-92%) that is hetro. Still, there is the matter of Art also. Ive never seen the "our sun with another sun = Stone." ;)
The reason Art is important in this, is as i mentioned beforehand, nature is fallen also.

You do make a valid point also about the embryo state, in that regard (and though i still say, due to personal beliefs: "its choice") for discussion purposes, then it comes down to hormones and development, in which case, looking back at what you sited for the animals, there was a thing they found in the sheep (or rams) which, in essence, would be a mental 'fluke' (something to do with a thing in the brain being basically "out of sync" you could say, with the development). So could be a deformity in the embryonic processes effecting hormones and development to then be "out of whack" in the final product, thus resulting in the non-alchemical unions of "sun with sun and moon with moon", basically. Considering it is a minority that engage in such of same-unions, i still refer to as "flukes" just as i could show other "flukes" of development, from being blind, to deft, to conjoined twins. It isnt the normal way of development nor behavior, and still seeing no "fruits" from said unions, and certainly no use of them in alchemical contexts. (yes when dealing with animals i did mean "fruits" as in offspring, just as sun and moon birth the red chid. ;) )

Any thoughts on those points? :)

~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
12-28-2009, 12:23 PM
Are you telling me that sex is a clinical act we only partake in
to produce offspring?

Some people are trying very hard if that is the case. :)


just as i could show other "flukes" of development, from being blind, to deft, to conjoined twins.

To left handed, to ginger, to hazel eyes??? where do we draw the line and who has the yard stick for normality?

If there is a creator he may be saying, "blast, that the 6th billionth I got wrong".

But we can all say, "he got me right". ;)

Sex may be a way of showing a closeness, trust and a belonging that perhaps can
not be shown in any other way. It is the ultimate giving one can show another.
Who that other is, surely, is up to the concenting individuals.

Ghislain

Ghislain
12-28-2009, 12:27 PM
Thought for the day:

"Are Narcissists gay"?

Ghislain

Andro
12-28-2009, 12:51 PM
Who has the yard stick for normality?

"Normality" is this little human invention that looks like a narrow, tiny box. It has the ability to shrink even more with time. People wear it on their heads and they get this electric shock of fear every time they try to reach out - therefore they keep telling themselves that their little "normality" box is all there is and ever should be. And, of course, since they're the ones living in that box, they also have the yardstick for it, since they know its tiny measures so well :D

Ooops, I think this was the first time I ever answered a rethorical question :)

Fireball
12-28-2009, 01:29 PM
It’s not about marriage of 2 sulphurs. It’s not about marriage of two males. Every creature in the universe has both salt and sulphur within themselves and do not need anyone outside him for alchemical marriage. Even the Sun!

But for exploration and discovery of yourself before the alchemical marriage you DO need someone to reflect your own nature. That’s what homosexuality is about.

It’s about discovering both masculine and feminine sides within oneself. And that’s what homosexuals do. They shift roles and poles in their relationship and experience both sides. They know how to be a man and a woman in one lifetime. The hemispheres of their brain are much more synchronized, because they use both of them at full power.

Heterosexuals, on the other hand, experience only their own sex, because the opposite one they seek outside themselves. They get used to be what they are in their vulgar, unrefined nature. The hemispheres of their brain are not in sync. One of the hemispheres is dominant, while the second one is suppressed.

An example is heterosexual couples: If a man can hammer a nail, why should the woman learn that? She wouldn’t. Or, if women always wash dirty nappies, why should the man learn that? He also wouldn’t. He will prefer to stick to his hammer and nail something down…:) That way one of the hemispheres atrophies and the brain cannot discover its own polarities within itself.

Seth-Ra, you were talking about numbers and statistics and mentioned that nature is mostly heterosexual. Of course it is. That what makes Alchemy such a special and supreme art! Most of humanity and nature are busy with breeding, feeding and football;), and cannot be an example of “how things work in alchemy”, exactly because they work in the vulgar way. Philosophers are so rare, because they think and feel DIFFERENT than the others. They are not copying nature in its vulgar state. There have no need for it, because they would only achieve the same as everyone else.

A true philosopher will achieve the alchemical marriage only after discovery of both masculine and feminine natures within him and will manifest the Stone outside himself as a reflection of his perfectly combined inner nature.

horticult
12-28-2009, 05:35 PM
Nota bene that the newspeak word "homophobic" was invented and is used to criminalize the majority. Qui bono?

U can also notice that there is only male-male true friendship.

Have u ever notice any organisation, functioning at last a few years, which consist only of women?

Study cybernetics, & u will know that system can be controlled only by 1 unit.

IMO there is only 1 question whitch relates to this thread topic - how about woman alchemist, if the prima materia is really one of the materials mentioned on this forum?

Andro
12-28-2009, 06:34 PM
Nota bene that the newspeak word "homophobic" was invented and is used to criminalize the majority. Qui bono?

I suggest you take note of all the hard work the "majority" has done all over history - and still does - to earn this word (which is actually pretty mild compared to what the "majority" has been calling us). Gays have been bullied, bashed, imprisoned, tortured, criminalized, killed, denied basic rights and considered mentally ill for so long, and you have the NERVE to say that the "majority" is now being criminalized for acting upon its fear-based hatred of something that is nothing more than simply different? This kind of warped logic truly baffles me...

Would you like to propose a different word to describe the mental condition that has led the "majority" to perform all the aforementioned actions? I'm open to suggestions...

This being said, I am personally very much against criminalizing ANYONE for their mere opinions and lifestyles. Name anything, and someone will dislike it. It's the way of things and the nature of diversity, which is to be celebrated. Homophobia is not a "bad" word. It simply means you fear or dislike homosexuals JUST because of their orientation. That's fine with me. The problem starts when you start to actively meddle and interfere in areas that are none of your business. I absolutely do not subscribe to criminalizing people for being homophobic, but I do subscribe to criminalizing people for actual crimes or one-sided destructive interference based on homophobia, censorship and denying of rights included (hate crimes, for that matter).

For example:

Let's theoretically say I believe that heterosexuals are genetically inferior, and their disgusting lifestyle is like a virus infesting and contaminating this planet for ages and ages, that only a small percentage of the population has somehow remained immune to this atrocious infection, not to mention that the hetero lifestyle is a personal insult to god (which of course I know because it says so in the only true book about god I've been reading in that special private school for the immune elite). It makes me sick to the bone when I see them flaunt their perverted hetero lifestyle every time I (unwillingly) have to walk through their breeder-infested neighbourhoods... And what I would (theoretically) find most annoying is that I truly believe it's their choice to remain infected with this hetero-virus, since there is a very simple cure - that is to start having same gender sex and be cured of their disease... And so on...

Let's theoretically say that this is what I believe. I would see no problem with having that view/opinion.

BUT if I was to theoretically go out and start bashing/torturing/imprisoning/CENSORING/hospitalizing those poor and genetically inferior heterosexuals just for living differently than me and without them having done any personal harm to me and not having tried to impose their (inferior) lifestyles on me - that would definitely count as criminal interventionism on my behalf.

Get it?


U can also notice that there is only male-male true friendship.

I would love to hear your explanation/theory as for why this is the case... Really...


Have u ever noticed any organisation, functioning at last a few years, which consist only of women?

I have no interest in studying organizations, I am more interested in individuals, so I can't really answer that one...


Study cybernetics, & u will know that system can be controlled only by 1 unit.

I can't see how the above statement fits into the context of this thread, but please elaborate in case I'm missing something.


How about woman alchemist, if the prima materia is really one of the materials mentioned on this forum?

? ? ? ? ? ? ?

I see no contradiction between women and alchemy, since all spirits have both male and female aspects/energies within them, regardless of the gender of the physical body they occupy.

Seth-Ra
12-29-2009, 08:18 AM
Before i get to my point id just like to say that i dont care if people believe differently then me. I personally am hetro, and as ive stated before, my opinion is that of my Bible, backed up more so by what i see in nature and art. I certainly have not tried to attack anyone who is different, im simply asking a very simple question. At the end of the day it matters not to me, nor do i think those who are different then i, are "bad" people.

Now to my question: All ive seen shown is example of the behavior being exhibited in animals also, which i knew, but again, a minority (and it is, of the overall populations of the species) could just as easily be brushed off as a defect, like many other things. If that is the case, so be it, they cant help it. My whole point is that i find no Alchemical union of the same. I do understand that as individuals, and on the mental level, we have the energies of both Sun and Moon, and we balance them. But it must also be seen on the physical level, that, as we all are one in this sense, then we each as an individual to the equation are but one of the two, you either are a guy, or a girl, and thus the physical is to be balanced, just as your minds are balanced.(1 guy plus 1 girl = 2 individuals, acting to become 1 in an alchemical union of opposites, the individuals are one in the equation once united.) Because your mind holds both Sun and Moon, Conscious and Subconscious, so then does 1 body hold male, and the other female, the 2 uniting as one. The salts (physical aspects) are chosen, just look down. ;)
Ive yet to see any alchemical text sources, or ancient artwork sources depicting an alchemical marriage of same, but rather, opposites, both in mind, and in body.

If anyone is ready to start showing what ive asked for, well then by all means. Otherwise im about ready to call it quits on this thread cause all im hearing is speculation and dodging, or side-stepping to what ive asked. Tempers also seem to be running high, and since ive not "attacked" anyone, but do seem to be on the "opposition" side, i guess im getting tired of being "politically correct" and not receiving much more then conjecture and whining of centuries past, that we were not even around during. Because just for the record, homosexuals arent the only groups to ever be persecuted: Alchemy as a whole has been, as well as Christianity, pagan religions, Islam, and dont forget the Jews. Many of these persecutions go on still also, and since im sure all of us belong to some group that has been, and probably still is being persecuted on some front, perhaps we should rise above the victim mentality, and move ourselves forward. ;)

Anyway, unless im shown what ive asked to be shown, i think im going to just sit back and watch.
Have fun. :)

~Seth-Ra

Andro
12-29-2009, 09:07 AM
Mr. Seth-Ra,

I think I understand what you're seeking to find out from this discussion. Let's put everything else aside and focus on the Alchemical aspect, but you'll have to help me a little here...

To start, please answer one simple question:

In your view, is the Philosopher's Stone male or female? (I mean the physical Stone, not allegorical)

Just a simple answer, please. Then we can move on with the discussion in a much more focused manner.

Seth-Ra
12-29-2009, 09:25 AM
Gladly. :)

Id have to say neither, and both. I viewed the Stone as the perfected embodiment of all chaos and order, Sun and Moon, the ability to initiate and control a change to the benefit or aiding of the situation in your favor. :)

Andro
12-29-2009, 09:50 AM
I'd have to say neither, and both. I viewed the Stone as the perfected embodiment of all chaos and order, Sun and Moon.

I agree with the above. That's a start :)

I would say "both" because it does indeed contain both male and female aspects, just as it embodies both Chaos and Order, as you've so well put it.

I would also say "neither" because, athough there, the two polaric aspects are indistinguishable from eachother, perfectly married and homogenized (unlike the dualistic Yin/Yang symbol, where you can still see the distinct polarities).

Would you call the Stone "androgynous" or "hermaphrodite"? Or any other name for that matter?

Next questions:

What about the Mercurial Alkahest, the one that makes the Stone and also multiplies it when married to it - do you view this Alkahest as male or female?

Do you view the Stone as something that needs the opposite gender to multiply?

I would appreciate simple answers, so as to not overcomplicate things...

Seth-Ra
12-29-2009, 10:42 AM
I would call the Stone "balanced", as i do see it as genderless, though having the powers of all. ;)

Thats a good question about the Mercury. Ive always seen it as a neutral medium between the two opposites. Its role being to "break apart and bind them together". Thinking about it, one could say the Mercury would be a type of "liquified base state" of the Stone, having the breaking down and creating (binding/balancing) properties, and once having fuzed the opposites, and thereby creating a balanced earth who possesses living fire, once added back to mercury, dissolves into, and thereby "raising" it higher and making the "drink of the immortals" as it were.

Ah but you did request "simple" answers, so id have to say i view it as a bridge, and thus able to connect with either, while being neither. :)

Ah, i almost forgot; seeing as the Stone is "balanced", id say to add either "gender" would be toppling the balance, and thus for multiplication, it simply must be broken down, and revived time and time again, according to its nature. (like a phoenix, but with each "burn-out"/"breakdown", leaving behind a "level", or "stepping up a level" during the restructuring, due to the energies it requires to bring it back.)

I also am glad to see that the common ground has been found. This was the very idea of what i had in mind, to discuss things thusly. :D (that was kinda a reply to what you said in the world currency thread. ;) )

Andro
12-29-2009, 11:29 AM
OK, cool...

I personally see them not as genderless, but rather as both genders pefectly combined into one.
You say the Stone is balanced. If it is (as you also say) genderless - then balance between what and what? Maybe it's genderFULL :)

But let's stick to your view. You see the Stone as "genderless" and the Mercurial Alkahest as "neither".

How/where exactly does this fit in with how the majority of nature behaves/operates? Can you show me examples of genderless majorities in nature?

One more question:

In your view, are metals and minerals male or female?

horticult
12-29-2009, 01:24 PM
Stone can not generate new life.

Andro
12-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Stone can not generate new life.

And you know this because you've made The Stone, tried to generate new life and failed?

Because if you haven't, your statement is pure speculation.

By the way, what do you mean by "life"?
Babies? Plants? Minerals? Solar systems? Galaxies?

horticult
12-29-2009, 03:41 PM
Pls read some adepts books, they mentioned this often.
I would also recommend 2 u 2 start using words in their common sense, a lot of things will be suddenly much clearer.

Ghislain
12-29-2009, 04:01 PM
To get to One from Zero there are an infinite amount of fractions.
This is that grey area where nothing is absolutely clear.
Every fraction is just as important as the next, for without even
the tiniest part there can not be a whole.

This grey area is present in all that is.
Nothing is just black and white.

You can leave out parts of what is but
this means you will never get to One.

Perhaps ;)

Ghislain

Andro
12-29-2009, 04:21 PM
Pls read some adepts books, they mentioned this often.

I believe what I experience. Many books mention many things. This does not neccessarily make them true.

You would only truly KNOW from your own experience, but this is a topic you seem to be always evading. You're just dropping bombastic statements, with no direct personal experience to back them up. I am not in the least impressed.


I would also recommend 2 u 2 start using words in their common sense, a lot of things will be suddenly much clearer.

One's "common" sense is another one's nonsense. Which makes the recommendation mutual.

By the way, what is the 'common' sense of the word 'life', according to you Mr. Horticult? And do try to be explicit this time...

Andro
12-29-2009, 04:24 PM
To get to One from Zero there are an infinite amount of fractions. This is that grey area where nothing is absolutely clear. Every fraction is just as important as the next, for without even the tiniest part there can not be a whole.

This grey area is present in all that is.
Nothing is just black and white.

You can leave out parts of what is but
this means you will never get to One.

You have no idea how much I agree with you on this :)

Ghislain
12-29-2009, 06:22 PM
sorry burbling

Ghislain

Joy
12-29-2009, 06:41 PM
What about Flamel, I read, that he only had success, because he worked with his
wife together, making the stone.

Since romantic love is based on hormons, and the personel female not always is
interesting in lab work, it was suggested, to take a female friend as an opposite
to work on the stone ... how about that?

Nice Greets ...Joy

solomon levi
12-29-2009, 07:20 PM
It makes a nice tie-in... the hormones correspond to the ductless glands which
correspond to chakras (or whatever you call them) which correspond to planets
which correspond to the metals... :D


I was thinking about this thread today (though it was back a couple pages when
I last read it), and i have to disagree with the male/male thing from an alchemical
perspective. (Simply rational - no irrational homophobia :) )
My reasoning is this... it's very clear that two opposite natures are joined:
fixed and volatile, male and female, sulphur and mercury, eagle and lion, etc...
They fight/resist union, and it is the alchemical art that joins the two into a
new being/androgyne.

While i see the value in same sex companionship (very much so), the suggestion
that two males would uncomplicate (my choice of word) the situation of needing
or seeking outside of oneself the opposite just defeats the purpose of alchemy -
solve/coagula, fix the volatile, volatilise the fixed, spiritualise matter and materialise
spirit, etc...


On the matter of choosing to be hetero or gay, I wouldn't know... I don't recall
making a choice to be hetero though...
But I disagree with subscribing it to brain wiring, only because I know from experience
that it can and should be changed, because most of our wiring/programs were programmed
into us by others (that's why people end up like their parents generally - they are
our primary teachers/programmers).


ps - I didn't get any "burn homos at the stake" feeling from that post when I read it.

Andro
12-29-2009, 08:14 PM
I have to disagree with the male/male thing from an alchemical perspective.

I've already explained this more than once...

Man + Man DOES NOT EQUAL male + male.

I NEVER mentioned alchemical unions between 2 exclusively male energies. Man, however is NOT exclusively male, but contains the female energies within himself as well. My simple point it that it can be more challenging for a MAN with predominant MALE energies to access his innate FEMALE energies as long as he is looking for those FEMALE energies ouside himself. In a hetero relationship it's easy for a man to default on his menial role with his male energies being predominant, while in a gay relationship each partner gets to experience both his male and his female energies in a more equal manner.


But I disagree with subscribing it to brain wiring, only because I know from experience that it can and should be changed, because most of our wiring/programs were programmed into us by others (that's why people end up like their parents generally - they are our primary teachers/programmers).

Let me know when you succeed in changing your eye color...
(But no cheating with color contacts :D)

There is a qabalistic saying: "Everything is preordained and permission (free will) is given". This sounds like a paradox, but it isn't. You can't change the cards you've been dealt at birth (anymore than you can change your natal horoscope), but you can most definitely chose HOW to play the hand you've been dealt.


I didn't get any "burn homos at the stake" feeling from that post when I read it.

Some eyes are more skilled than others in decoding certain sections of the psycho-semantic spectrum. Let's just leave it at that :)

Seth-Ra
12-29-2009, 09:09 PM
I said i viewed the Stone as both, and neither: it is a balance of both, thus has both energies and can use them according to the need of the work, but it is neither because it is perfectly balanced and has no gender.

Mercury/alkahest is the force, substance, or thought that binds us, or the opposites so they may unite and be a balanced whole. It is like the stone, in that it can relate, or bridge both, but mercury is not of either sex either.

As for the metals, i think that gets more into their correspondence rulers, i.e. sun, moon, venus, mars, saturn, etc...etc... With that, metal alchemy that ive heard of seems to be in using gold, to extract its seed (sulphur gained by via a mercury/medium) and is then mixed with silver's womb, also gained through a mercury, and resulting in a birth of balanced stone, which isnt ruled by any correspondence, for it embeds all, thus making it none. (i dont work much in metal alchemy though. i use gold and silver in my works, but not to the extend most do, im more of a plant and animal alchemist, with a hint of minerals. :D )

I think the "confusion/problem" is a distinction between individual mental/spiritual alchemy, and duo physical alchemy: an individual holds both male and female aspects, sure, and balances self, and thus his/her work, i agree. The thing is, on the physical level, the individual is still male, or female. They may have tapped into their energies, and can use their "opposite" energies as a mercury between them, and their opposite, but they them self are still male or female.
Example: As mentioned im a guy. My girl is also into alchemy and we discuss it a lot. She thinks a bit differently then i do, because she is a girl (difference between "logic" and "emotion" respectfully). I value this difference in view, because though being different, doesnt contradict mine, but opens new doors through that perception. By me being "in tune" with my own female/Lunar side, i can better relate to her, and it thus acts as a mercury between my physical male self, and her female self, and bridges the gaps between our trains of thought, into 1 unit working together, balanced.

Now, that doesnt mean two guys cant do alchemy together, many of my friends here are males also and i get good ideas from them, but the "mind-sets" are about the same as far as male/female go, so its kinda like an "echo", its like your own thought, but maybe a bit different cause its from someone else. Ofcourse, unique ideas can come from anywhere, but i think ya probably can get what im meaning. (guys think solar, girls think lunar, we connect to both via our mercuries, but essentially its all 1, so a balance requires both solar and lunar to be an alchemical marriage.)
The only thing is that i cannot see it as alchemical in the sense of a physical union with the a man/man, or woman/woman. Though the mercury towards the female might be there for one of the guys, nature has already dictated that he is a guy in salt/body, and same for female, and thus they should be balanced accordingly. It seems that otherwise, it would be ignoring the physical/salt aspect of nature and art, and thus ignoring self nature and art. Kinda like chemists only look at physical, psychologists only look at mental and religious persons only see spiritual. All miss the others, while Alchemists see and use all, balancing, and working them properly. To ignore physical nature and thereby its art, well... i just dont see how it works then, cause it wouldnt be alchemy.

Joy, it is a nice idea of having an opposite partner to work with, i enjoy it myself, and Flamel was a great example, im afraid i kinda forgot/didnt think about him before now. :o lol

Anyway, thats my take, and the examples in nature are there also:

a mercury being genderless: im in the habit of using a mercury made of dew and rain. Dew being the female/lunar water of below, and rain being the masculine/solar water from above. By mixing the two, they become one water, and use both energies, but since they are then 1, they are neither. for one, they have no sex, and also, if they did, it would mean there was an imbalance. They act as one, and use all.

I see the Stone the same way, but more powerful, or as the Emerald Tablet puts it "It is perfected if turned into earth", thus the balancing powers, holding the elements, by the laws of nature and the work of art, form a perfected substance that is then earth, living, fixed fire, and also volatile water (if you make the "drink of the immortal" from it ;) ). In that regard, "All is 1, and 1 is All", being joined in perfection, then is of its own kind, it is whatever the work its used for, calls for. :)

~Seth-Ra

Andro
12-29-2009, 10:11 PM
Guys think solar, girls think lunar

Gays think both. (solar AND lunar)

I'll repeat the summary of my views on this subject for the last time:

Vulgar nature (the majority) is dualistically balanced, and therefore heterogenous (Yin/Yang).
It is physically better reflected in the heterosexual orientation.

Philosophical nature (rare) is non-dualistically balanced and therefore homogenous.
It is physically better reflected in non-heterosexual orientations.

The above statements are strictly my own views, and I will not elaborate/discuss them anymore unless other not-hetero alchemists will also come out here and enhance the interaction.

I appreciate everyone's input on this 'hot' topic. If you've managed to learn something new from it - good for you. If you only participated to add pompous and condescending remarks, or to merely reassure yourself that your way is the "right" way - that's fine too :)

I may have many interesting things to share in the more practical sections of this forum. When we meet again in the practical sections, please remember to back up your claims about practical lab alchemy with your own practical lab results.

Thank you.

Seth-Ra
12-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Fair enough. :)

One thing id like to ask though, and it doesnt have to be answered here, or even at all, just something to think about: "Vulgar" and "Philosophical" nature... what defines them? If it is merely majority and rarity, then it would stand to see what each brings and work according to which offers what youre after. If one is physical ("vulgar") and the other mental/spiritual ("philosophical") then a balance should be made according to proper Art, i would think. (which then ties into the above mentioned topic).

Like i said, just food for thought, or perhaps we should start a separate thread concerning types of nature, and its properties. *shrugs*

Also, Androgynus, id like to thank you for discussing my original question on this matter, instead of side-stepping it. I think we understand each other a bit better and in that understanding, this topic was "good". :)

I guess in the end, Sexuality in Alchemy and Nature really just depends on what the person(s) want. ive come to the conclusion about other things like this, and it simply is "the world is art, and proof is subjective according to the artist". Basically, the way we live, the way we work, is what we want it, and if we truly believe our personally True Ways (true to selves) then any "proof" will only back up our Way, in our minds. So, i may not see homosexuality as "Right" under the Rules of Alchemy and Nature, just like you see the heterosexuality as lesser to yours. I personally dont think anything is wrong with having, and holding to a Way that you believe in, i just think it proper to share the information with others, so as to build understanding, even if there is disagreement, there can still be understanding and working together. (concepts get tweaked, "fitted" into each persons personal form of their Work, thus making it "Art". )

Well, i think ive typed enough. (lol i know i have a habit of making long posts :o )

So to each Artist my final words would be: "Its your Art, learn it, use it, share it, and grow it." :)

~Seth-Ra

Hephælios
12-30-2009, 04:53 AM
What about Flamel, I read, that he only had success, because he worked with his
wife together, making the stone.

Since romantic love is based on hormons, and the personel female not always is
interesting in lab work, it was suggested, to take a female friend as an opposite
to work on the stone ... how about that?

Nice Greets ...Joy

That is one among many notions espoused via second hand "authorities" (Samael Aun Weor: The Secret of Alchemy). Personally I've read nothing in western alchemical literature from source material; that in any way condones a truly sexual union as it pertains to the alchemical processes. It is my opinion that it falls on the misinterpretation of the material that is more often baseless in its extraction on the subject. How else can you rectify that Paracelsus, Basil Valentine, and St.Germaine are all historically considered celibate? Sexual alchemy for me, may as well be called arm-chair alchemy...as it has no real footing within the source material. Again- this is just my opinion.

solomon levi
12-30-2009, 06:51 PM
I underlined my replies to distinguish them from yours.



I've already explained this more than once...

Man + Man DOES NOT EQUAL male + male.

I NEVER mentioned alchemical unions between 2 exclusively male energies. Man, however is NOT exclusively male, but contains the female energies within himself as well.


This is true about everything. Water has fire in it. Mercury has salt and sulphur
in it. Yin has yang in it. That doesn't make it a wise alchemical operation.
You're gay. It makes sense for you cause that's what you have to work with.
It doesn't make sense for heteros. Why would the hetero try to "extract the mercury
from gold when it is much easier to extract it from saturn?"



My simple point it that it can be more challenging for a MAN with predominant MALE energies to access his innate FEMALE energies as long as he is looking for those FEMALE energies ouside himself.

More challenging than what? That's what heteros have to work with.
Again, what you're saying may be great for gays, but that doesn't mean we
should apply it across the board or advise heteros to practice it.


In a hetero relationship it's easy for a man to default on his menial role with his male energies being predominant, while in a gay relationship each partner gets to experience both his male and his female energies in a more equal manner.

I just have a problem with this idea that being gay makes one more balanced.
There are plenty of gays (I have known quite a few) that are way out of touch
with their male sides. Gays are not in any ideal situation if that's implied. But if
you want to say gays are more in touch with their female energies, I've no
argument with you.
Let me know when you succeed in changing your eye color...
(But no cheating with color contacts :D)

Eye color isn't brain wiring. Brain wiring (neuronets) are products of repetitive
thinking/imaging (dendrites firing). There is that which we have learned (programming) and that which is innate (genetics).
I wasn't implying that you can change being gay by changing your brain wiring;
I was implying that you mean to say gay is genetic, not brain wiring.
You're so on the defensive that you misread people's posts/intentions.

There is a qabalistic saying: "Everything is preordained and permission (free will) is given". This sounds like a paradox, but it isn't. You can't change the cards you've been dealt at birth (anymore than you can change your natal horoscope), but you can most definitely chose HOW to play the hand you've been dealt.

Agreed. But the brain isn't so wired at birth. Babies see a very different world than adults do. Adults teach babies how to perceive by programming/wiring
them repetitively through punishment and reward, showing approval and disapproval, "Good baby", "Bad baby"...
Some eyes are more skilled than others in decoding certain sections of the psycho-semantic spectrum. Let's just leave it at that :)

I don't want to leave it at that. I'll reply in the general discussions.

Mr. Solomon :)

Andro
12-30-2009, 07:49 PM
Mr. Solomon Levi,

I am not attempting to advise hets to act differently than they do.

My main purpose was to provide a different perspective (mine) to the way alchemy and sexuality are mostly seen. Not to 'change' anyone.

I have misunderstood the link between orientation and brain wiring, when you actually meant it's genetic - to which I agree.

I'm only defensive when attacked, never without reason. If the reason is not obvious, it's because it's very difficult for people to see things with different eyes than their own. When you grow up as a minority, you develop extra sharp senses. And my eyes have been highly sensitized to these sort of oblique innuendos in particular.

Quote: "censored on the stake" ? ? ?

I mean, please, c'mon... :)

I don't personally see it as a case for debate, only as a matter of different perspectives. The thread came up, so I presented my views. They are quite different, I know. But they have their place :cool:

With the same appreciation as always,

Yours truly :)

solomon levi
01-01-2010, 12:09 AM
Hey Androgynus,

It is a new idea for me, and i am trying to allow it some space in my "wiring".
:)

Now that my mind has expressed its objections or concerns/differences, I'll go
back and read it again with a better ability to perceive agreements/sameness.

Andro
01-01-2010, 09:31 AM
Here's something to lighten things up a bit.

Warning: The following quotes have been taken out of their original context and are presented here for comical entertainment purposes only!


I have nipples :) 'and a nice pair of legs even if I do say so' He He


photos ! photos ! photos ! :D

Happy New Year, everyone :) :) :) :) :)

solomon levi
01-01-2010, 11:00 AM
I heard a theory years ago - it wasn't told as a theory, but as the
way it is. I don't really believe in things nowadays, so for me it's just info,
a possibility. I was reminded of it in this thread so I thought I'd share it
and get opinions.

The theory involves reincarnation, and the idea that after the body kicks
it, there is a reviewing period for the soul and something of an intention
set for the next incarnation, to evolve, to gain wisdom where there was
ignorance.

Throughout much of history women have been treated as less than men
in varying degrees. So the idea is that many mistreated women have
decided to be men in their next incarnation, to experience power, to avoid
abuse, whatever...

Now this creates complications, according to the teaching I heard, because
the soul has a male or female charge (as long as it exists below visible light
in the electromagnetic spectrum), and so you end up with female souls in
male bodies, and vice-versa for lesbians.


This sounded enlightening at the time; now I don't believe in things that
I don't experience directly, so it's just info, a possibility. But since we have
the topic I thought I'd throw it out there, especially to hear Androgynus'
thoughts about it - if it has any feeling of truth?

Andro
01-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Now this creates complications, according to the teaching I heard, because the soul has a male or female charge (as long as it exists below visible light in the electromagnetic spectrum), and so you end up with female souls in male bodies, and vice-versa for lesbians.

I personally view this as a very common misconception, since there are no male or female souls. All souls are both genders homogenously balanced in perfect androgyny. It's the physical body (incarnation) that's genderized, and it's the genetic program of most bodies that brings one polarity forward and supresses the other, for the sake of having different incarnational experiences.

Once dead (on the astral plane) the spirit may still hold on to the idea of genderization of its now deceased body, but this doesn't change the fact that all spirits are both genders combined. For example, on my astral travels, I've seen recently deceased who were still holding on to their pre-death physical pain, even though there was no longer a body to hurt. This eventually fades, sometimes with a little help... During many years of astral travels and non-physical explorations, I've seen and experienced things for which I believe this forum is not the proper place to go into detail...

We all have all sorts of incarnations, giving us the chance to explore both genders and a varietey of circumstances, roles, races and sexual orientations (among many other variables). The spirit is no more male or female than it is black or white, blue-eyed or brown-eyed, athletic or handicapped etc... It's all about variety/diversity of experiences. One's Higher Self may and will chose the genetics and circumstances most suited to what it desires to experience in any given incarnation.

The "female spirit in a male body" theory sounds to me like someone was trying to invent a 'spiritual'-sounding excuse to serve them as a box in which to place things they don't comprehend.


I don't believe in things that I don't experience directly.

I find this very wise on your part :) You are now officially a minority, my friend :eek:

Belief may (sometimes) serve as a precursor to KNOWING, but not as a substitute.

Howgh :D

horticult
01-01-2010, 01:30 PM
Driving a car without taken into account its characteristics will end badly.

solomon levi
01-01-2010, 01:48 PM
Thanks for the reply. I'll place some arguments, for the sake of reason,
nothing invested except that they seem possible.



I personally view this as a very common misconception, since there are no male or female souls. All souls are both genders homogenously balanced in perfect androgyny. It's the physical body (incarnation) that's genderized, and it's the genetic program of most bodies that brings one polarity forward and supresses the other, for the sake of having different incarnational experiences.

I'll outline a view of the universe based in quantum physics.
There are seven divisions (why? convenience? law of octaves?) of the
electromagnetic spectrum. If we consider it from the perspective of the
universe unfolding from the void into physical matter, we have the
highest/finest/shortest/fastest frequencies which science calls "cosmic
rays" or infinite. Then space/time/mass/energy slows a bit into gamma rays,
then a bit slower and denser into x-rays, then ultraviolet, then a
very narrow band called visible light,; now we're getting quite slower and
denser and longer frequency/time, larger amplitude... infrared (a negative
mirror image) and finally hertzian whose densest vibrations correspond
to what we call physical mass/density.
There are seven "levels" in there, and they appear to be connected to
the sevens of most systems - chakras, metals, planets, ductless glands...
(Often hertzian is divided into radio waves and microwaves and cosmic
is ignored).
So, as the story goes, when spirit was first created out of the void, it
is genderless. Soul is a bit different than spirit in that it records and has
memory and thus the potential for evolution/wisdom. Soul began after
spirit "moved". Well, spirit and soul do a lot of genderless moving (to make
an infinite story short :)) until they reach the "threshhold" between
ultraviolet and visible light. This is the place where some "angels" decided
to "fall" from "heaven".
This was a courageous decision to venture further into the unknown. At
this place in the spectrum visible light appears out of the invisible, due to
polarisation, and, as the story goes, the soul was polarised as well, splitting
itself into male and female or positive and negative. This is where the idea
of soulmates becomes possible. At this point, we still don't have physical
bodies as we know them. Obviously we are composed of the matter of
visible light at that point, photons.

So I told that long story, in a short form, to
offer the possibility that it may
indeed be possible for souls to acquire gender upon the "fall" (involution
into physical mass), and that they may thus evolve, once again, beyond
gender, when their consciousness is equal to the ultraviolet realm,
corresponding to the heart chakra.
So I guess to verify or deny, we would have to look for some force that occurs
at the far edge of visible light. Obviously duality manifests from the moment
we first moved in the void; but they say this additional polarity is added
to that one at and below visible light. Some say, this is the "cross we must bear" -
the cross of two polar forces.
There is much evidence from near-death experiences where one recalls
entering "the white light" which is the visible spectrum, all 7 colors seen
at once. Castaneda calls the EM spectrum the "Eagle's emanations". It
is seen as two great black "wings" and in the center, white flashes of a "beak"
and "talons". The wings are IMO the left and right sides of the spectrum
flanking the narrow band of visible light, which they called talons and beak
because they "saw" that the Eagle consumes awareness - very much how
those who cross the threshhold in death are stripped of their memory as
their life "passes before their eyes in a flash".

I've offered these comments, not to say it is correct, but to suggest that
the argument does have some weight in actual science and other
"spiritual" sciences.




Once dead (on the astral plane) the spirit may still hold on to the idea of genderization of its now deceased body, but this doesn't change the fact that all spirits are both genders combined.


So obviously the above story applies here for consideration.
And we have to be clear if it is spirit or soul or body in gender or genderlessness.
Is human spirit composed of light? An active agent? Or is it feminine
mercury as in alchemy? Or do we merely assign gender relative to
sulphur/soul? Human soul certainly seems aligned with alchemical theory
in that it is the conduit of information/experience/memory.

I would argue that we have to assign attraction and repulsion to something
and that it is more than just physical. Can souls be attracted? And is it
like attracting like, or opposites attracting?
And we should consider the hermetic axiom from the Kybalion - "All is gender."
They seem kind of certain. :D




We all have all sorts of incarnations, giving us the chance to explore both genders and a varietey of circumstances, roles, races and sexual orientations (among many other variables). The spirit is no more male or female than it is black or white, blue-eyed or brown-eyed, athletic or handicapped etc... It's all about variety/diversity of experiences. One's Higher Self may and will chose the genetics and circumstances most suited to what it desires to experience in any given incarnation.


Okay. But spirit is the easiest IMO to answer. The harder question is
what about the soul? Is the soul bound by its memory and past experiences
to repeat something until it is wisdom? Is it attracted to certain definite
types of people and experiences because of karma? Are there soulmates?
Why does the soul yearn? Is yearning indicative of gender? The soul obviously
doesn't believe it is whole or it would be still/calm. ;)


I hope this is enjoyable for you and not a test.
Please consider that we are exploring this together.
I don't intend my questions to lead you to something I already know.
It just seems that as a scientist, these are necessary questions.
Not that I'm a professionally trained scientist - I mean the scientific
mind of exploration and reason without personal investment (don't we
wish all scientist were that way! :rolleyes:).

Andro
01-01-2010, 02:12 PM
Driving a car without taken into account its characteristics will end badly.

Driving a car without taking into account that there are other cars on the road will end tragically.

On the other hand, some might argue that ignorance is bliss.

Either way, you are having a conversation with yourself.

Yawn :-()

Andro
01-01-2010, 02:38 PM
Dear Mr. Solomon Levi,

To me, things are much less complicated than they appear through the filters and theories of the scientific mind.

I know what I know.

I've seen what I've seen.

I learn, grow and live my life according to what works for me, but I'll never argue with others about what they've found to work for them.

We'll all get to share and compare from a much higher perspective after this is all over.

Yours truly :)

solomon levi
01-01-2010, 02:51 PM
:D
Fair enough.

Too much knowledge is bad for you anyway.
We are limited by what we know, and unlimited in not knowing.


But it's fair of me to ask, since you've stated as much to others about
only giving value to what you've experienced (or some words like that)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Androgynus
I personally view this as a very common misconception, since there are no male or female souls. All souls are both genders homogenously balanced in perfect androgyny. It's the physical body (incarnation) that's genderized, and it's the genetic program of most bodies that brings one polarity forward and supresses the other, for the sake of having different incarnational experiences.

How do you know there are no male or female souls?
I mean besides the fact that every yin has a dot of yang and vice versa.

Andro
01-01-2010, 02:58 PM
But it's fair of me to ask, since you've stated as much to others about only giving value to what you've experienced... How do you know there are no male or female souls?

I'll PM you on this subject, since the answer holds more than I wish to reveal publicly.

PS: I just thought of a concept that may satisfy your scientific mind.

Think of the Golden Ratio/Phi/0.618

It is called the number of 'god', and it converges in a completely irregular manner towards infinity, an eternal dance between the virtual absolute polarities of 0 and 1 (female and male), with a slight tendency towards 1, but never touching either of them.

This convergence towards increasingly complex infinity (:eek:) would not be possible without the two virtual polarities of 0 and 1. There is no absolutely separate Zero and there is no absolutely separate One, but it's the virtual/abstract presence of BOTH archetypal polarities which makes possible the existence of everything within the whole of Creation. Souls included. If a soul were of one polarity exclusively - it wouldn't be. If there was only one edge polarity, there would be no infinitely converging fraction, no souls and no Creation at all. We are all created and create in the image of the Golden Ratio (:p), not in the the image of one polarity or another. The closer we are to the Golden Ratio, the closer we are to Balance. Never really getting there, but then again this is the nature of infinity... This balance is never static, but always in motion.

Just like riding a bicycle :)

horticult
01-02-2010, 01:00 AM
& the Angel with Unbelievable Gracefullness folded his 5 Wings & was beyond retrieve...


:D:D:D

Andro
01-02-2010, 01:13 AM
Driving a car without taken into account its characteristics will end badly.


& the Angel with Unbelievable Gracefullness folded his 5 Wings & was beyond retrieve...


For someone so keen on using 'common' sense - you're being suspiciously metaphoric.
But I can see why this is very convenient, because you can always claim you meant something else...

Therefore, I am hereby publicly challenging you to explain in clear language what you meant with your quotes above! Up to it?

If you can't say what you really mean, how can you ever truly mean what you say ? ? ?

How do your here quoted words relate to alchemy? How do they relate to sexuality? Are you attempting to metaphorically disguise your contempt for a viepoint or lifestyle that's different from yours? If so, you might just express yourself clearly (if you have the guts not to hide behind metaphors) - because I have no problem with it.
Or are you just getting your kicks from dropping pompous and lofty statements from your self-righteous podium, without ever intending to have any sort of real dialogue?
If this is the case, I have no problem with it either, because masturbation, even if only mental, is a valid form of sexual relief - and this is a sexual related thread, after all...

Alternatively, if I'm wrong and you meant your words in their 'common' sense and if what you truly wish to discuss is fallen angels and auto mechanics, this (http://christianautosimi.com/) place may be much more suitable for your purposes...

And a word of caution, for safety reasons... sometimes, when attempting to make the Red Stone, the color tends to stick to one's neck...

Seth-Ra
01-02-2010, 01:29 AM
I think I had a more indepth answer to give but "We" have been discussing about much (self and inner-self) so I don't remember all of it at the moment, but for now:

I'm inclinded to agree with Androgynus about souls having no gender, being balanced. Yahoshua (Jesus) said in Matthew 20:30 that at the ressurection people won't be married nor given in marriage but will be as the angels in heaven, i.e. balanced/sexless/genderless.
(religious texts have been sited before for their alchemical value. ;) )

if I can remember what "We" wished to say, then I'll tell, until then, that's all I got. Lol

~Seth-Ra

Andro
01-02-2010, 01:41 AM
Mr. Seth-Ra,

I'm glad to notice that in spite of our differences we are still able to find some common ground.

We've come a long way during these last few days :)

Seth-Ra
01-02-2010, 02:48 AM
Mr. Seth-Ra,

I'm glad to notice that in spite of our differences we are still able to find some common ground.

We've come a long way during these last few days :)

Ive noticed that as well, and i too am happy to see that. :)

Like i tried to say in the beginning, i never meant to start a "war" on my end, simply to share sides and views. (i think Sol' put it much better in a different thread)
All in all i think everything has "balanced" itself out for the most part. Such is the Way. ;)

solomon levi
01-02-2010, 12:42 PM
Still, the key phrase is "after the resurrection"...
So before the resurrection...???

The question about souls having gender applies to us now,
not some future state.

If they are genderised now, it would explain some things about gays
and lesbians. Quite frankly, if gender has only to do with the physical,
there would be no confusion about sexual orientation.

Isn't that self-evident?
There has to be something besides the body that is genderised to make
one think they are a woman in a man's body, or to make one think I am
a woman attracted to other women, or which ever scenario.

Andro
01-02-2010, 12:55 PM
The question about souls having gender applies to us now, not some future state.

If so, do you reckon that you are a male soul?

If so, then where do your more feminine related character traits come from?

Also, please read my previous (now ammended) post on the Golden Ratio.

horticult
01-02-2010, 01:16 PM
Well, I supposed as common knowledge that pentagram is based on phi, which has connection 2 beauty.

solomon levi
01-02-2010, 01:23 PM
Ok. But I don't mean to say a soul is male or female exclusively, just as
nothing is. But that it is so predominantly.

If something didn't break the perfect balance of the gunas, or the
alchemical triplicity, the world would be unmanifest. I only mean to
argue that it makes sense that a soul, or something other than the body,
is predominantly male or female. Even bodies have both male and
female horomones, but you're still born with a penis or a vag.

I think the golden ratio is a good example that shows how things grow.
But we don't observe people swinging from male to female - it has more
to do with swinging from reason to feeling, conscious and subconscious,
etc... all things that can be given predominantly male or female stamp
relative to their opposites. For example, one needs masculine knowledge
and feminine experience to produce wisdom/growth. Knowledge alone
is not enough, and the experience without knowledge of what one is
experiencing doesn't suffice.


All reason aside, I am silenced - I cannot say my soul is male or female.
I would have to agree with you. :)

Andro
01-02-2010, 01:25 PM
Well, I supposed as common knowledge that pentagram is based on phi, which has connection 2 beauty.

EYC

Otherwise, I give up :)

I'd love to hear about your practical experiments, though...

Best of luck in your endeavours.

horticult
01-02-2010, 01:29 PM
Moreover, most of people are /only/ thinking that they are able 2 draw equilateral /equiang-u/e-lar/ 5gram.
Stop thinking, take ruler & compass & do it.
I wonder.

horticult
01-02-2010, 01:42 PM
car - this remark was just after "female spirit in a male body" post, so I am not able 2 comprehend where should be the problem

Andro
01-02-2010, 01:51 PM
Moreover, most of people are /only/ thinking that they are able 2 draw equilateral 5gram.
Stop thinking, take ruler & compass & do it.

Incidentally, I studied Architecture years ago, and the ruler and compass were my long term companions...


Stop thinking

Jawohl, mein Kommandant ! ! ! Awaiting further orders...


I wonder

And it looks like you'll keep doing that for a long, long time :)

Because drawing equilateral pentagrams won't make you beautiful, no matter how hard you try...


I am not able 2 comprehend

Exactly.

horticult
01-02-2010, 03:21 PM
That was not only 4 u, but everybody interested.

& if you studied architecture, & do not know "that pentagram is based on phi, which has connection 2 beauty", go back and kick your teachers.

My posts are str8. No pun intended. :D

Andro
01-02-2010, 03:56 PM
if you studied architecture, & do not know "that pentagram is based on phi, which has connection 2 beauty", go back and kick your teachers.

It's in Architecture school that I learned about the Golden Ratio, beauty and pent forms. I am pefectly aware of the connection. I DID, however, 'kick' my teachers, but for different reasons :)


My posts are str8. No pun intended.

If your posts were straight, you would have said "pentagram" instead of angel with five wings. Maybe your posts aren't that straight after all (pun intended) :D

I feel we are entering an age fit to put an end to speaking in parables and allegories. We are not in the middle ages anymore (although it appears as some wish we still were)...

Seth-Ra
01-02-2010, 06:52 PM
Sol', I'd like to propose a theory as to how the "dominant" trait gets placed.

First to your question about the "ressurection", I thought it made since: humans, the world, is "fallen" (lead) and once perfected (gold) they are "ressurected" (eternal life) thus balanced proper. :D
(that's the alchemical spin, I personally believe it to be more litteral then that.) ;)

Now for the theory: Notice God in the Bible keeps saying "It is done." and also notice that when we realize that things are "done" even as we realize it how a mental transmutation takes place and we move forward. What I'm saying is: the soul is balanced already, but people unbalance it by ignoring the opposite. As for physical/salt polarities, how about this: God (or whatever you believe to be the creative-collective force) being and knowing what "They" know ordained your physical polarity to balance the overall scheme of things. This could also explain "soul mates", as the Creator had foreknowledge and designed accordingly. :)

I think it possible and personally likely, but i propose it as theory since I cannot prove it, but I would argue it seems "rational" to see such a balanced structure, yet dual also, in such an interesting creation as us and our world. ;)

Also, Androgynus, I think I have a better "explaining" of balance and duality. :)
Balance is needed for individual works, but the physical duality is a way of keeping us "in the world". What I mean by that is the balance kinda raises us above, but the physical keeps us "grounded" so that we have to form a balance in the physical and around us, to raise up more then ourselves, thus each of us acting as a balanced individual in thought and action, yet balancing the physical with this knowledge so the end is the overall body (the One made from the All) reflects the souls of the All: balanced and thus One Perfected.
What would be your thoughts on that notion? :)

~Seth-Ra

Andro
01-03-2010, 09:07 AM
Just for the fun of it, here's an interesting and potentially stirring quote from the Book of Lambspring:

Cook the sulphur well with the sulphur,
And hold your tongue about it:
Conceal your knowledge to your own advantage,
And you shall be free from poverty.
Only let your discovery remain a close secret.

We have many types of non-mainstream unions/marriages in Alchemical writings: sulphur with sulphur, brother with sister, dragon with its own tail, etc...

And some good piece of advice from Pop Alchemist, the late Frater Michael Jackson:

"I'm starting with the man in the mirror
.................................................. ......
You gotta get it right, while you got the time
'Cause when you close your heart
Then you close your mind."

And from Frater Bono:

"We're One (http://www.macphisto.net/u2lyrics/One.html), but we're not the same..."

My final suggestion on this thread is to study, understand and celebrate diversity (Peacock's Tail, Rainbow Bridge, Rainbow GLBT Flag) instead of closing your hearts and minds. If you wish to make The Stone, that is... Because if your hearts are not open, the Rainbow Bridge to Asgard will remain invisible to you. Your minds will continue to spin in loops of theory, dogma and circular logic and you may compare genders with car mechanics and draw pentagrams till the cows come home...

Anyway, I feel this has been going on long enough for me.

See y'all in the practical sections.

Ciao.

Road
06-04-2011, 09:46 AM
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7601/ourflower.th.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/ourflower.png/)

The Level Of Ignorance Displayed In This Thread Is Very Great, Though Not Surprising. If My Own Heart Were Any Less Fixt, It Might Even Have Been Provoked To Anger.

~But Now To Address An Error; Perhaps Indeed The Only One (Of Many) That Can Even Hoped To Be Addressed (Or Corrected) In This Lifetime: I Find It Highly Strange That You Who Would Presume And Proclaim To Seek The Matter And The Stone Know So Little Of Its True Nature. Are You Indeed So Unaware That You Do Not Know The Matter To Be One? In Purest Truth, There Is Only One Matter And One Vessel; And The Vessel The Measure Of One's Fire. As The Flower Goes Back To Its Root, So Too Does Our Rebis, The Two-Aspect Thing, Androgyne Of The Wise, Alone Suffice For The Work. There Is No Union Of Opposites; No Base Conception As You Perceive It—Rather All Is Solely One, And To One Only It Returns. You Who Do Not Even Comprehend Our Matter, But Are Instead Lost In Contrived Dichotomies, I Ask You; What Do You Think To Obtain In This Life?

...I Will Tell You One More Good Thing, And That Is This: No One Who Holds Even An Iota Of Hatred Within Their Heart Shall Live To See The Kingdom.


I personally view this as a very common misconception, since there are no male or female souls. All souls are both genders homogenously balanced in perfect androgyny. It's the physical body (incarnation) that's genderized, and it's the genetic program of most bodies that brings one polarity forward and supresses the other, for the sake of having different incarnational experiences.

Once dead (on the astral plane) the spirit may still hold on to the idea of genderization of its now deceased body, but this doesn't change the fact that all spirits are both genders combined. For example, on my astral travels, I've seen recently deceased who were still holding on to their pre-death physical pain, even though there was no longer a body to hurt. This eventually fades, sometimes with a little help... During many years of astral travels and non-physical explorations, I've seen and experienced things for which I believe this forum is not the proper place to go into detail...

We all have all sorts of incarnations, giving us the chance to explore both genders and a variety of circumstances, roles, races and sexual orientations (among many other variables). The spirit is no more male or female than it is black or white, blue-eyed or brown-eyed, athletic or handicapped etc... It's all about variety/diversity of experiences. One's Higher Self may and will chose the genetics and circumstances most suited to what it desires to experience in any given incarnation.

Your Understanding Is Without Flaw; Having Gazed Upon The True Nature Of the Soul Myself, I Can Testify That It Is Quite Unlike Anything That The Vulgar Imagine.

Seth-Ra
06-05-2011, 04:56 AM
The One is manifest as the All, creating the duality and cycle of All, while maintaining being One. The ouroboros is a circle, some things are the Head, somethings are the Tail - in union of the opposites is their Harmony and One, and from the One, is their All.

The opposites are of one substance, but must be balanced. In the beginning the dragons war, creating energy and opening one another in violent fashion. Once their fighting ceases, due to the balanced "stalemate" - they instead harmonize into one, being forced to BE (exist) together. In the new union, their is peace and the Two become One - the All is made One and whole, as the Fruit, or Child, is born. This, then, returning to the All, acts on it as a catalyst, accordingly.

What balances Within, must be balanced Outside. What is brought from Above, balanced with Below. Things are not solely as one wishes, but also as they simply Are. Truth is not dependent one one's preconceived ideas, but is infact what IS, regardless of one's ideas. You may will the sword to not cut you, but if its thrust into your stomach, it will do so regardless. What is in the Mind, must be manifest by what is in the Matter, and the Matter can be worked to an almost infinity of ways that the Mind can fathom - but the Two are One, and to posses only one, is a False. Your orientation is set (you have both minds, but not both bodies - that is why the opposites seek one another, for unity, and balance, becoming One, not just within, but in the physical also.) - it is in your being, no matter how you attempt to change it, you cannot change your DNA - which will regardless read what it is. If your Mind has issue with what IS, oh well. It doesnt change the fact - or Truth. To walk in Truth is to lay down ego's will, and see what IS.

To observe Nature, is to observe what IS. To bear the Child, or Fruit, of Truth - is to balance its aspects in all ways, for only when they are balanced are they One, otherwise their war will not cease, as they continue to fight for an upper hand. Balance brings peace, brings unity and Oneness - imbalance brings war, turmoil. Even then, they must have both, as they merge together, but only in balance is it pure, and it will seek to balance regardless.




~Seth-Ra

Road
06-05-2011, 07:23 AM
The opposites are of one substance, but must be balanced.
True Enough; The Harmony Of The Elements Will Yield The White Stone.


In the beginning the dragons war, creating energy and opening one another in violent fashion. Once their fighting ceases, due to the balanced "stalemate" - they instead harmonize into one, being forced to BE (exist) together.

There Is Violence, Yes, In That Particular And In Others.


Your orientation is set (you have both minds, but not both bodies - that is why the opposites seek one another, for unity, and balance, becoming One, not just within, but in the physical also.)

In Comparison With The Greater Perfection, This Notion Of Balance Is But Merely A Shadow.


- it is in your being, no matter how you attempt to change it, you cannot change your DNA - which will regardless read what it is.

~All Things In This World Are Mutable; Even That Which Tends Towards The Last Degree. To Say Otherwise Is Folly.

solomon levi
06-05-2011, 08:00 AM
It's all good and well to proclaim unity, but there's nothing practical about it. Who would practice on what in unity?
The title of this thread is "sexual orientation and alchemy". It obviously is not intended to be a thread about unity.
This is a forum - every word is imprinted with duality. There is no other way to co-municate (co implying more than one).
Alchemy does not exist until we divide unity. I wouldn't say it's correcting an error as much as taking a different view.
I see it is quite clear that the philosophers have stated that alchemy is 1, 2, 3, and 4. Why is one more correct than any other?

Unity, One... yes, it's absolutely true. But so what? :)

Andro
06-05-2011, 10:19 AM
So what?

When Choicelessness and Pointlessness converge, this question may well be the only one remaining...

How's THAT for unity? :)

(Hence my current signature line: drink the wine and let the world be the world)

I am tired of arguing/debating/disputing anything with anyone anymore.

Especially on this thread.

Every 'Truth' is also a beLIEf, and there is nothing to awaken to or from, except maybe from one imagined dream to another...

Words mean less and less to me. The Danish Prince understood it only too well, near the end of his worldly journey.
But something had to rot first. If you remember anything, remember this. Fortunately, however - we all forget, with every Poo-Point we reach...

For 'now', I still have a few more things to share, but I am already feeling this need coming to pass, as well.


So, what happens when an Irresistible Force meets an Unmovable Object?

Answer: They surrender. Because, in fact, they never really were apart.

For 'now', I am applying what works for me, I simply surrender to it. And you know what? It feels GREAT ! ! !

Anal-Eyes this... And thank you all for this wonderful conversation with myself :cool:
_____________
Rot In Peace :p

solomon levi
06-05-2011, 10:45 AM
:D

"I discovered a cure for cancer!"
so what? I don't have cancer.

"I have manifested the elixir of immortality!"
so what? what's a mortal?

"I can make all the gold I ever desire!"
so what? gold is????? what's so essential about gold?

"I am enlightened!"
so what? whatever can become enlightened isn't "It"....

It's fun, huh?

III
09-29-2011, 07:26 PM
Each of us and all of us are a balance of in-equalities. If everything were perfectly balanced and unity, no "current" would flow, there would be nothing to change and even no thing. I honestly don't see how sexual orientation has any bearing on alchemy. If one is doing a partnered Alchemy then it needs to be done with a partner that has enough differences from ones self to be useful and internesting. A WORK group which has turned into a Mutual Admiration Society no longer can perform useful Alchemical WORK. I suppose this actually gets down to what Alchemy is about. The work of self transformation, of Self Realization, the work of becoming a conscious "enlightened" individual, is what Alchemy is about in how I think of it. Where does sexual orietation fit into that? If one's ideas about sex is that it is for "making babies" and nothing else and that making babies is then all that alchemy is about I would suggest that there is a lot missing in that definition. If Alchemy is about evolution of the conscious being, of broadening and rebalancing ones "energies" and how one is without all the automatic bloackages to the divine energy then again, where does sexual orientation come into it?

Ramakrishna practiced a celebate tantra. He engaged in living lingam puja, adoration, and felt it vital and did so on a regular basis. I would expect that somewhere along the line he also practiced a living yoni puja, at least during training. For those doing high energy alchemical work a symbolic stone or other non-living lingam or yoni wouldn't have the same impact or effectiveness. Ramakrishna was married yet celebate his whole life, and his recognition of his wife right at the start was that she was the "Beloved" focus for him. So what was his orientation? Does it matter?

I have never heard of any priest or priestess, at least within American practices in which I have participated, which are my only experience in this life, being asked their sexual orientation before participating in lingam or yoni puja in either capacity, either supplying that to be adored or participating in the adoration. While there is some resemblence to Hindu ceremonies of the same name, the ones done alchemically are done for the energies of high voltage prayer and transformation and are different then those done as routine practice and "praying for ..." and tend to be variations on the more "secret" forms. All of these things are tools for evolving the self. The map is not the territory. BE IN LOVE.

Andro
01-11-2012, 02:24 PM
Ramakrishna was married yet celibate his whole life, and his recognition of his wife right at the start was that she was the "Beloved" focus for him.

So what was his orientation? Does it matter?

Of course it matters. I makes the whole difference between ideological celibacy and a closet case. Which one was he, now?

Some research into how homosexuality is viewed in India may shed some perspective...


I have never heard of any priest or priestess [...] being asked their sexual orientation before participating in lingam or yoni puja in either capacity...

If you were to venture to a gay, all-male tantric gathering, I GUARANTEE you that nobody will ask about your sexual orientation either.

Does it mean that your orientation doesn't matter? Well, I suggest you get into the gay/all-male gathering and check for yourself if it matters or not.

A gay man will find NO INTEREST in 'Yoni Puja'. A lesbian Woman will likely find NO INTEREST in 'Lingam Puja'. Of course, they can sure fake it for the appearance of conformity.

Bisexuals are a different story, though...


He engaged in living lingam puja... I would expect that somewhere along the line he also practiced a living yoni puja...

Of course you would expect such a thing, as a hetero male... It is your specification/determination after all, which also defines the filters of your perception.

But it would be wiser (IMO, of course), not to bother oneself with 'expectations'.

Like that saying goes: 'Expect Nothing - Receive Everything'.

Also, please note that I'm NOT saying that sexual orientation matters IF one wishes to practice what you term 'Partnered Sexual Alchemy'.

It DOES matter, however, in HOW it is enacted/applied.

Gays and lesbians have DIFFERENT ways to do this, so please do not assume (or even worse, expect) Gay men to engage in 'Yoni Puja', or Lesbian women to engage in 'Lingam Puja'.

Sorry, this is not how it works for us. But you would have to be one to KNOW one, so room for communication may be scarce...

We are ALL Androgynous Beings in genderized bodies.

So I would place the emphasis on the spiritual male AND female energies available to BOTH genders, and less on the physical organs (Living Lingam/Living Yoni).

In other words - You don't need a Yoni to be a 'real bitch', just like you don't need a Lingam to be a 'real dickhead' :)

I also apologize in advance if I misinterpreted you, and you actually intended to address spiritual energies rather than the actual organs/physical expressions of our genderized bodies.

Just my perspective on this...

Andro
01-11-2012, 04:21 PM
Now, on a MUCH lighter note...

Watch THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6xxiK6Z4eXs#t=132s).

(Warning: Contains explicit 'adult' language - so don't watch it if you're not an 'adult'! LOL :D)

III
01-12-2012, 09:03 AM
Of course it matters. I makes the whole difference between ideological celibacy and a closet case. Which one was he, now?


Some research into how homosexuality is viewed in India may shed some perspective...



If you were to venture to a gay, all-male tantric gathering, I GUARANTEE you that nobody will ask about your sexual orientation either.

Does it mean that your orientation doesn't matter? Well, I suggest you get into the gay/all-male gathering and check for yourself if it matters or not.

A gay man will find NO INTEREST in 'Yoni Puja'. A lesbian Woman will likely find NO INTEREST in 'Lingam Puja'. Of course, they can sure fake it for the appearance of conformity.

Bisexuals are a different story, though...



Of course you would expect such a thing, as a hetero male... It is your specification/determination after all, which also defines the filters of your perception.

But it would be wiser (IMO, of course), not to bother oneself with 'expectations'.

Like that saying goes: 'Expect Nothing - Receive Everything'.

Also, please note that I'm NOT saying that sexual orientation matters IF one wishes to practice what you term 'Partnered Sexual Alchemy'.

It DOES matter, however, in HOW it is enacted/applied.

Gays and lesbians have DIFFERENT ways to do this, so please do not assume (or even worse, expect) Gay men to engage in 'Yoni Puja', or Lesbian women to engage in 'Lingam Puja'.

Sorry, this is not how it works for us. But you would have to be one to KNOW one, so room for communication may be scarce...

We are ALL Androgynous Beings in genderized bodies.

So I would place the emphasis on the spiritual male AND female energies available to BOTH genders, and less on the physical organs (Living Lingam/Living Yoni).

In other words - You don't need a Yoni to be a 'real bitch', just like you don't need a Lingam to be a 'real dickhead'

I also apologize in advance if I misinterpreted you, and you actually intended to address spiritual energies rather than the actual organs/physical expressions of our genderized bodies.

Just my perspective on this...

Hi Androgynus,

I also apologize in advance if I misinterpreted you, and you actually intended to address spiritual energies rather than the actual organs/physical expressions of our genderized bodies.

You have completely misinterpreted me. I have participated in mixed gender and mixed gender orientation ceremonies. These are NOT about sex in the way you are assuming.

It IS about the spritual energies and single pointed meditation. Have you ever received Shaktipat? It's the same whether delivered by a male or female. The person involved is only the delivery vehicle, they don't CAUSE the Shaktipat. It is delivered through them. It isn't about bodies. And you are crippled by the attitudes you express above. Males and females do BOTH types of puja withour regard to orientation. It really isn't relevent. Sexual desire is not required or relevent. When Tantric massage is offered, and I am not talking about the escorts offerring their "tantric" sex services and other such things in the USA and UK, which is not about sex but rather about release of traumas, often sexual traumas because our society is so good at creating those, and freeing the energy flows, where there are both priest and priesrtessess available, the receiver has the choice. A skilled priest(ess) can enter into erotic trance with either gender as it really isn't about gender or sexual preference at all. Whether you would allow yourself to enter said trance state with me or a priestess is up to you and your fears and blocks. And as part of the alchemical purification process said priest(ess) would hit every one of the fears while you were learning. It is enough to scare the shit (let's forget the urine for a moment) out of most people (usually figuratively) because it is never what they expect if they are not experienced. Can you accept another in your head on equal footing with you? That isn't an oreintation thing at all. It just plain hits all the barriers of separation. If a person can't accept another equally in what they thought of as their "own" territory they are going to hti the fan in every direction.




Prayerful adoration is the attitude of everybody but the priest or priestess who is in the object of adoration position and they are the other pole, and have to receive the prayerful energy and circulate it back without sexualizing it. That is one of the requirements for the person in that position. The "erotic" energies, as distinguished from the sexual energies, are the "yearning" entry points into another persons energy It's about building up and having a positive feedback loop of the prayer energies which are also erotic, same energies, and in a manner of speaking, being struck by lightening. It's the feeling of going through the barriers that is erotic and having the energies flowing through all 10 chakras and in communion with the divine. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

You need to learn the differences of Shiva energy and Shakti energy. It is your prejudice in this at work. My daughter is a lesbian. A significant perentage of males I know that do Goddess circles are gay and the others are not. In circle it isn't about any of those distinctions. We all invoke together. Before entering the circle one has to agree to accept all there equally. At a "gay" gathering that obviously wouldn't be possible. Being hetero brings its own problems as most hetero males I have met are quite unable to fully accept the Shakti energies on equal footing and allow a woman to be their full energetic equal and share the space on an equal footing. Christians and Muslims have spent centuries banning women from the priesthood and making it a strictly male group.


Also, please note that I'm NOT saying that sexual orientation matters IF one wishes to practice what you term 'Partnered Sexual Alchemy'.


What is required in this is that the two partners need to have complimentary energies, must be able to manifest Shiva AND Shakti so that the "current" can flow. Call it positive and negative, North and South.


If you were to venture to a gay, all-male tantric gathering
Well, I suggest you get into the gay/all-male gathering and check for yourself if it matters or not.


Right there is a problem. I have never gone to an event specified as "hetero", why would I go to one specfied "gay"? Most of the larger ceremonies (size is relative, the largesrt circle I've ever participaed in was about 25 people, most are smaller) had a mix. The largest really really great one was 17 and were all experienced and previously mystically initiated. and were there by specific invitation. Building a functioning circle of that size is no easy trick. Each person has to fit into the structure in a very special way if the circle is going to work. Even at that it took 3 days to work through everybodys crap enough for all to come into trance together. Two or three are pretty easy. Four tend to break up and is very unstable. Five can be very powerful. More than that is very rare to be able go deeply into trance together and maintain it. Seventeen was truely a most extraordianry occurance and experience. In the backround I am aware that I will do one with 21 at some time if all the positions can get filled. It isn't a casual fun and games thing and physical sex has little or nothing to do with it.


So I would place the emphasis on the spiritual male AND female energies available to BOTH genders, and less on the physical organs (Living Lingam/Living Yoni).


It is so much more energetic than a stone symbol to have a living being on the other end of the polarity. And contrary to what you appear to believe, often does not involve any physicality. We are talking in many cases gazing objects as such and a pathway for the "lightning".

I think that some wider experience would do you good. As a priest giving a tantric massage it is not a sexual thing at all for me though I go into erotic trance with the person. I can do that massaging their back or feet or whatever. People hold trauma and pain in blockages all over their body. Being able to feel just where they are is the trick. One woman who had been raped several times as a child had it all tied up in her back. She had been raped from behind and held down with a hand in the middle of her back. The story only came out as the blockages were removed and she remembered, regaining her memory. My blockages centered around how I was abused. A wonderful priestess was able to help me release those as she could sense them. A successful tantric massage usually ends in tears, emotional release and getting struck by lightning, not at all sexual or gendered or anything of the sort
.


Of course it matters. I makes the whole difference between ideological celibacy and a closet case. Which one was he, now? Some research into how homosexuality is viewed in India may shed some perspective...


Circa 1850-1890, under British rule which was changing everything. At that time one was assigned a Tantric Teacher by ones teacher. As Ramakrishna was the teacher in this case, and already a Yogi seeking to expand his knowledge, he choose a well known teacher of Tantric. This is detailed in one of Vivekanada's books. Ramakrishna was trained in Tantra, the celebate version as that was his choice as an already celebate monk who was allready a full blown jnana Yogi., by the same femaleYogi and Tantra instructor and at the same time as Vivekanada, his extremely talented student. Being Hindu and doing the local religious observations most of his life they had already been doing all sort of pujas for much of their lives. Shivaliga are all over India in some forms that look just like the stones in INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF DOOM which were the town's ancient shivalinga. The shivalinga being the "piller of the universe". Other forms have a dish around the stone to catch the anointing liquid to be consumed. The stone yoni are the same. The alters designed for living yoni-linga puja and living yoni puja have the catch basins built in. They looked like sort of a Mutt and Jeff pair, one very seedy looking middle aged Yogi and a young and handsome and also celebate, young Yogi of great accomplishment. I've met them in a non physical encounter while engaged in tantric practice with my wife the entire time. As I said, I'm sure they both were thoroughly instructed in and able to do, everything in their chosen form of practice. What was celebrated about both of them and adding to their reputations was that they mastered everything of Tantra in a matter of days. Of course they already knew most of it which is why they were able to learn the balance quickly.

If you were to venture to a gay, all-male tantric gathering, I GUARANTEE you that nobody will ask about your sexual orientation either.

A gay man will find NO INTEREST in 'Yoni Puja'. A lesbian Woman will likely find NO INTEREST in 'Lingam Puja'. Of course, they can sure fake it for the appearance of conformity.

You project your own prejudices and biases upon what you think yoni puja or lingham puja are about either in the devotional or alchemical forms. This is about prayers to Gods and Goddesses, at least in some expplanations, in the devotional forms and a prayerful energetic divine communion in the alchemical form. I don't have to be gay to do an hour long one pointed prayerful adoration of a lingham, just interest in downloading the Shiva energy. Get real. It has absolutely nothing to do with orientation. Now in corrupted American sex forms, you may be right. JR Haule, Jungian therapist and author of a free download book on Alchemical Tantric Practice estimate that no more that 1% of those teaching tantra in the US are teaching tantirc alchemy. The rest are just teaching sex, which is fine with me but should not be confused with anything mystical or alchemical. They are NOT looking for communion with the divine and transofrmation thereby.



Nudist clubs have nothing to do with alchemy or tantra or sex for that matter, contrary to popular opinion and fears. The nudist club I belong to has GLBT members. They even had a very popular gay cook for some years until he left who happened to be murdered last year by some woman. It was all quite confusing. He hadn't been around for about 5 years. This is a family club. That means that ALL sexual behaviors and other than incidnetal non-sexual touching, takes place in peoples private quarters. The public grounds are strictly G -rated suitable for children of all ages at all times. Many gay men segregate themselves in men only clubs and they are not G-rated. Yes there are some swinger clubs for heteros but again, they should not be confused with nudist clubs. Whose prejudice are we talking about? Some clubs practice discrimination. I don't support that. I also don't support the prejudice some clubs have against people with piercings and tatoos. I have uneasy feelings about a lot of men because I have been the bully target and beaten upon by so many, but I don't avoid them. Maybe that's an experience you have had. And not one of the bullies was gay as far as I know.


In other words - You don't need a Yoni to be a 'real bitch', just like you don't need a Lingam to be a 'real dickhead'

Of course not, and I don't use or think in that language.

Andro
01-12-2012, 10:34 AM
There is a very special 'paradox' about diversity. One would have to go to the extremes of one's individuality to reach the universal common ground. It's not an easy concept to grasp.

We are NOT all equal.

One, but NOT the same.

We have different needs, different stuff that works for each of us. Those differences DO matter, no matter how you may try to spin it.

Maybe paradoxically for some, it is those DIFFERENCES (and the ability to accept that what works for one may NOT work for another) that are the key to unity/oneness/universality.

I will not have a 'who's projecting on whom' debate. I just gave my own perspective. And I certainly know what works for me and what doesn't.

My only 'regret' is that we don't have more Accomplished Tantric Experts like yourself and more Gays and Lesbians on this Forum to enhance this kind of discussion.


Get real.

LOL :)

When you manage to define 'real', I'll 'decide' whether to 'get it' or run like hell :)

Have fun and good luck.

Ghislain
01-12-2012, 01:02 PM
Hi Androgynus

What was in that video?

All I go was a black screen with, "This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your
country on copyright grounds.", now im curious.

Ghislain

Andro
01-12-2012, 01:09 PM
What was in that video?
All I go was a black screen with, "This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.", now I;m curious.

I suppose there are certain benefits with not living in the US or in the UK/parts of the 'EU' :)

Google Search-Words: Steve Hughes gays

Hope you'll find one of the videos, they're absolutely hilarious :)

Ghislain
01-12-2012, 01:49 PM
Found one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9SiDtJLaU

I must admit it was highly amusing.

A different perspective.


III

Reading your post (#90) was most interesting...I can’t begin to imagine what Shaktipat must be like.
However you mentioned the fear of the beginner and I can imagine what that must be like.

The thought of opening one’s self to another so freely makes me shudder, but you have sparked an
interest. Perhaps that is what I need.

Androgynus, because of the fear of opening up and dropping all the barriers to another seems so alien to
me, but a necessary thing to do to move on IMHO, it makes me wonder if orientation would matter to me at
all...the hurdle of being that open with someone makes the point of orientation seem so trivial. Again just
my opinion

Thanks

Ghislain

Andro
01-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Androgynus, because of the fear of opening up and dropping all the barriers to another seems so alien to
me, but a necessary thing to do to move on IMHO, it makes me wonder if orientation would matter to me at
all...the hurdle of being that open with someone makes the point of orientation seem so trivial. Again just
my opinion

First open up (with someone you're comfortable with)... Then, let's talk orientation :)

One step at the time :)

III
01-12-2012, 05:32 PM
There is a very special 'paradox' about diversity. One would have to go to the extremes of one's individuality to reach the universal common ground. It's not an easy concept to grasp.

We are NOT all equal.

One, but NOT the same.

We have different needs, different stuff that works for each of us. Those differences DO matter, no matter how you may try to spin it.

Maybe paradoxically for some, it is those DIFFERENCES (and the ability to accept that what works for one may NOT work for another) that are the key to unity/oneness/universality.

I will not have a 'who's projecting on whom' debate. I just gave my own perspective. And I certainly know what works for me and what doesn't.

My only 'regret' is that we don't have more Accomplished Tantric Experts like yourself and more Gays and Lesbians on this Forum to enhance this kind of discussion.



LOL :)

When you manage to define 'real', I'll 'decide' whether to 'get it' or run like hell :)

Have fun and good luck.

Hi Androgynus,


When you manage to define 'real', I'll 'decide' whether to 'get it' or run like hell

Is it possible to define real? As was said back in Firsesign Theater days,"Which real? The last reel of this vintage motion picture classic, Porgy and Mudhead".

This world, a dream within a dream as it has been called, is where I end up after I die, over and over again. So where and what is this place?


Maybe paradoxically for some, it is those DIFFERENCES (and the ability to accept that what works for one may NOT work for another) that are the key to unity/oneness/universality.

That is what has to be accepted in trance with somebody or a whole circle. We are each unique and yet can meet on common ground. If a person has to impose their "shaping of reality" or however that might be said on these others, the person can't enter that common ground because they get caught up in fighting against all the differences. In a circle everybody has the same "right to exist" as they are.

One would have to go to the extremes of one's individuality to reach the universal common ground. It's not an easy concept to grasp.

No It isn't at all easy to grasp. So when one "grows" Alchemically, it is by expanding to the extremes in multiple dimensions becoming a balance of extremes. If one becomes too unbalanced in certain ways, one can become quite insane. In India, one sees the "holy idiots" babbling divine nonsense and occasionally meaningful gems. I might describe that as that they did not succeed at an alchemical synthesis. Ramakrishna, one of the most extreme Yogis, had trouble maintaining presence here in this world (where ever that is). He kept going off into "Mother's" presence and spoke esoteric philosophy and such, the cosmic stream of consciousness.

The thing about the nudist club is that it everybody just accepting themselves and each other. There is no such thing as an average body. That is a statistical abstraction. Each one is unique and it isn't at all about sex or pleasing anybody else. The Rolexes and all that get left at home. Nobody is displaying status items or defining themselves by externals. One guy I met was really out of place as he kept having to tell everybody that the tan lines on his wrist were from his Rolex. Generally then one just gets to know the person, not their displays. They are more open and honest. That is a quality that is needed for a successful circle. Everybody has the same "right to exist" as they are at a club.

Have fun and good luck.

Andro
01-12-2012, 08:27 PM
Is it possible to define real? As was said back in Firsesign Theater days,"Which real? The last reel of this vintage motion picture classic, Porgy and Mudhead".
This world, a dream within a dream as it has been called, is where I end up after I die, over and over again. So where and what is this place?

Yes, that's why it made no sense to me to read your ''Get real" pontification...
__________________________________________________ ______

Also, since this whole thing originally revolved around whether sexual orientation 'matters' or not in various methods/systems/practices,
I just realized that I could have easily avoided the whole debate by simply saying: "It matters to me."

Andro
01-12-2012, 09:09 PM
opening up and dropping all the barriers to another seems so alien to
me, but a necessary thing to do to move on IMHO

Not as a universal system or doctrine, but something to be applied with truckloads of discernment...


it makes me wonder if orientation would matter to me at all...
the hurdle of being that open with someone makes the point of orientation seem so trivial.

In the context of this particular discussion, can you see yourself (as a heterosexual) entering an erotic trance with another man? (even if it doesn't involve interaction of a clearly sexual nature)

Would orientation still be trivial for you in such a scenario?

I would say that above all systems/methods/doctrines/traditions/'occult initiations'/etc..., in the end, the most important thing is what works for YOU.

That's how I see it. Even if we ALL approach the SAME point - we are doing so from DIFFERENT directions.

Of course, adjustments of one's course are inevitable along the way :)

Ghislain
01-12-2012, 11:42 PM
In the context of this particular discussion, can you see yourself (as a heterosexual) entering an
erotic trance with another man? (even if it doesn't involve interaction of a clearly sexual nature)

I can not give an honest answer until I come across this situation, but I have seven siblings of which
four are brothers and we greet with kisses and hugs...which get some strange looks here in
'reserved' Britain... but we had a Belgian mother so maybe that explains it :)

I think we all/most of us hold our selves back by our reservations without ever realising it. Exploring
this issue, for me, seems daunting. It's like bungee jumping, abseiling, parachuting...etc... all
daunting but probably exhilarating once attempted. I haven't tried parachuting yet, but who knows?
It is on my bucket list.

Can I see myself (as a heterosexual) entering an erotic trance with another man?

You assume I am heterosexual...not a bad assumption, but pigeon holing nonetheless. In answer to
that question I would have to refer back to III's explanation of the nature of this eroticism.


It is so much more energetic than a stone symbol to have a living being on the other end of
the polarity. And contrary to what you appear to believe, often does not involve any physicality. We
are talking in many cases gazing objects as such and a pathway for the "lightning".

Then there is a possibility. Not that I wouldn't feel uncomfortable at first, but how can one learn if
one is not willing to experience. It is like the child offered a new food and saying they don't like it
even though they have never tried it.

If it takes the level of conviction that III implies to receive Shaktipat...and as stated in Wikipedia:


Shaktipat is considered an act of grace (anugraha) on the part of the guru or the divine. Its
reception cannot be forced though the recipient must be open to such an influx since it also cannot
be imposed by force.

With that sort of openness required then I am aware that to experience this I would need a
complete openness that would not allow any feeling of orientation, just a oneness that I have not
experienced yet. Therefore I have to keep an open mind and say yes to the above question.

Ghislain

Andro
01-13-2012, 06:15 AM
You assume I am heterosexual...not a bad assumption, but pigeon holing nonetheless.

I don't think I'm assuming, I think you told me so yourself. But you could also be bisexual (or bi-curious - newer term), or somewhere in-between on the scale, and not consciously aware of it (yet), for lack of direct experience :)


It is like the child offered a new food and saying they don't like it even though they have never tried it.

Well, I DID try 'other foods' and I certainly have my likes and dislikes...


Therefore I have to keep an open mind and say yes to the above question.

I also keep an 'open mind', so I have explored many avenues, about which I won't go into detail. It was extremely helpful in establishing what works for me and what doesn't.


I can not give an honest answer until I come across this situation.

Yes, I fully agree, and I am awaiting your honest answer after you've come across the situation :)

I personally DID come across 'The Situation' (more than once), so I CAN give an honest answer: It does NOT work for me. Not in the slightest. The energy flow just isn't there.
------------------------------------------------------------------

III
01-13-2012, 06:33 AM
Found one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9SiDtJLaU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9SiDtJLaU)

I must admit it was highly amusing.

A different perspective.


III

Reading your post (#90) was most interesting...I can’t begin to imagine what Shaktipat must be like.
However you mentioned the fear of the beginner and I can imagine what that must be like.

The thought of opening one’s self to another so freely makes me shudder, but you have sparked an
interest. Perhaps that is what I need.

Androgynus, because of the fear of opening up and dropping all the barriers to another seems so alien to
me, but a necessary thing to do to move on IMHO, it makes me wonder if orientation would matter to me at
all...the hurdle of being that open with someone makes the point of orientation seem so trivial. Again just
my opinion

Thanks

Ghislain

Hi Ghislain,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9SiDtJLaU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9SiDtJLaU)

I must admit it was highly amusing.

A different perspective.



Amusing, yes, as far as I could understand it. I found the accent more than a little thick.

However you mentioned the fear of the beginner and I can imagine what that must be like.

When I'm working 1 on 1 with somebody, there can be 100 tries in the course of an evening. Each time the person hits their "chronic" (EJ Gold's term for chronic or usual objection". Some people use anger, some use "52 pickup", anything to disrupt the direction it's going before one can't help but open. The closer you get the harder and faster the reaction to prevent it. As one homes in on the entry point people actually jump up and run out the door, literally. This is not using any sexual method, strictly conversation and energy, the way 95% of such work is done. Purification. Finding and releasing the actual trigger point. The advantage of sexual methods is that the person is pulled towards the opening, yearning to find it. It's the one exception to total blockage that most people leave themselves. The purpose of sex is not "orgasm" whatever that means, but ecstacy. The escape is to orgasm. . Now all these high energy states get called orgasm, types, stages, steps etc, except by the medical/research types that say orgasm means 1 thing only. What is bypassed is ejaculation. Whatever. In the male the doorway is easy to find, difficult to go through. That very intense moment that leads to orgasmic inevitability is the aiming point and then learn to relax and allow movement to stop right there and follow that up as it goes into a cascade, "it lases". How much intensity can you stand? In erotic trance with a person one can ride on their energy and stabilize it. In a woman there is the same energy. They are teaching access to it in the OneTouch traning and how to start that cascade. As they are doing this practice in a group, the intensity is vastly multiplied so it's easy for everybody to get caught up in it quickly. In the 20 minute portion of the session devoted to OM (Orgasmic Meditation) it takes a lot of practice to be able to tolerate 20 minutes of the kind of ecstatic intensity that is possible.

There are non-physical non verbal joint meditative methods. I use a mix of methods usually, sequences of methods.

The thought of opening one’s self to another so freely makes me shudder, but you have sparked an interest. Perhaps that is what I need.. ...the fear of opening up and dropping all the barriers to another seems so alien to me,

There is a parent child non-sexualized version of this channel. I found that all I have to do is look at the preteen and teen girls and I can recoginze the sexually abused girls by the sexualizing of this channel. It normally gets closed off in the preteen years and the adult sexual version that opens is different. Opening to another fully is at the heart of ecstasy and is scary as hell. Then when you stay there after you get off the express elevator, there can be a most interesting time until each piece is closed down again.

Each time one repeats it with someone it goes farther. It builds and builds. Each time to re-enter one must get through the latest versions of their chronics. Both will be cleared of their chronics as they progress.

DanceofRebirth
01-28-2012, 09:38 AM
There have been pieces and parts to this discussion that have made me smile and adore all involved, and other pieces that have made me consider all of it from the perspectives given.

I find myself agreeing with all of you in different ways.


The thing is that because of our unwritten taboos (meme's) we suppress them, sometimes
so deeply that we convince ourselves they don’t exist... sometimes to the point
that we find the mere suggestion of them abhorrent.

This made me want to kiss you out of pure affection. Yes. A thousand times yes. In so many ways, there are people I know who have only grown to choose (when possible for THEM) their life time partners based on the taboos and expectations placed upon them by their society. By growing up and living where we do, the world is colored, tinted, and found agreeable, or dramatically not, based entirely upon who and what we grow up around. As an example, modern day mainland Chinese people believe that being gay is a strange disease and at the same time, is simply a joking un-reality. They do not believe it exists, but only agree that it is a turn in the brain, something to be made better through the right medicines and reorganizing one's life. They have salons full of hairstylists whom are obviously involved with each other romantically, but the males can not stop and simply live together and be happy because they are denied this by their parents, their culture, and their very society because of the belief that being anything other than straight is *impossible*. When brought up, they mean no harm by this and there is no cruelty, simply an understanding that it can not exist. This belief will not change even if two men openly discuss being lovers. It's seen as an abnormality and is expected to change over time. I say this having watched, discussed, and seen these extremely close friendships at work. They have a balance all their own and are forced to change it because of this 'taboo'. For females, enjoying that kind of thing with another female is considered 'dirty' and makes that girl a slut/whore simply for liking sex, let alone it involving another female. Friendships are found to be acceptable, but any more and that changes everything in your life.


Androgynus - I can agree with you that both genders likely have the possibility of both energies within us. Simply and if only because of the connection of polarities with gender along the Tree of Life, and that the body is basically a human magnet. I've also had experiences of gender being more fluid than stable and this has colored my perceptions a great deal as well. I don't know if it's 'easier' for those who are in same sex couples to manage alchemical prospects per say, but I can agree that an individual has both stances within them, as long as they aren't afraid to look and delve into them. On the same coin, letting yourself get ultimately lost on 'I AM ____ GENDER' either the one you have physically or the one you believe to be connected to internally, it's still an emotional block that is unhealthy and I'd again use the term fluid to describe how I'd personally identify this in a healthier manner. Gender flows. Sometimes we are more one than the other, and sometimes we are more both than neither. ^_~ Anyone who's felt themselves on a astral walk or a dreamscape, between the worlds, along the veil's edge, and looked down on their form can likely attest to such a sense of absolute in between like that.

Solomon - As to your theory of more gender-fied souls, my personal take was somewhat along those lines as well. I kind of assumed that as people we go along in life and learn things as we develope, always carrying some of that sense of life perivously with us. As a soul, we make choices, and those choices will often include what gender to reincarnate into for the next passage. The prospect of changing genders is obvious, and necessary if we are to learn all things, but over time if one chooses the same choice multiple times, then we end up with a leaning. We, then because of the accumulated experiences, will lean towards feeling Male no matter the body, or Female no matter the form. It is quite possible then to feel like a Male soul in a female body, or the opposite, a Female soul in a male body. This is NOT to say that souls are gendered, but that this leaning will give us the sensations of such, especially if one leans rather strongly. My thoughts have always been that these leanings are lessons we are to learn in some fashion, either accepting and welcoming this leaning or trying to challenge ourselves to get over the attachment of such things and to allow ourselves to once again be more fluid in gender discernment, letting go of the labels and just freaking living. Again, this has no basis other than my own theories, but I've enjoyed reading some of it reflected in your posting previously. Thanks for opening the floor on the subject~!

Dev - By saying that 'everyone is bi' are you saying that everyone is attracted to the other gender, or only that because we all house the same genders (both) that we are technically 'bi' in the process of incarnation, aka by simply being alive? I missed this somehow.

III - I've felt what you're talking about before as a massage therapist. I'm not trained in your field, and I'm sure that my own fears and previous trauma in that area have also altered my ability to do so at this point. I'd be one of the girls in your sessions running for the door, and the nearest country border. However, I can also appreciate what you do, as when it gets down to the 'alchemical healing level', the question of gender and orientation seem to disappear. People are simply souls who have been damaged, and even being that intimate with someone so far as to use the energy of something so erotic to heal someone in such pain, the question of orientation still doesn't play as much of a part as one could think. As a person, I have a sexual orientation, but as a healer, as a vessel of the healing energies of the divine, I am nothing more than a doorway for those who work through me to tread. I applaud the work you do and a part of me is quietly amorous of the ability to share yourself so freely. I can't express myself clearly at the moment, but for all your work in healing those who need it, those who have suffered in silent agony for the pains they can't share with the world, thank you. Your efforts touch my heart.


Thank you all for sharing, I've found this thread to be a lovely read and it's been opening my mind to thoughts beyond the daily life today, which I greatly needed.

solomon levi
01-31-2012, 09:14 AM
Alchemy gives us a parallel of gendered soul in the form of volatile and fixed sulphurs.
This also corresponds with the Gnostic concept of Virgin Mary and Whore Mary Magdalene -
that is, if we utilise this diagram:
http://paulgoddard.co.uk/tuition/resources/mathematics/geometry/circle_radius.gif

Spirit is the central point, soul is the radius and body/salt is the circumference.
The soul nearer the center would be considered a different gender/pole (the volatile, the virgin)
relative to where the radius is meeting with salt/body (fixed, the whore).

Awani
01-31-2012, 03:48 PM
By saying that 'everyone is bi' are you saying that everyone is attracted to the other gender, or only that because we all house the same genders (both) that we are technically 'bi' in the process of incarnation, aka by simply being alive? I missed this somehow.

I simply mean that what I said: we are all bi.

We all have the potential of being attracted to anyone... for some it is always with the same gender, for others always with the opposite gender, but in our soul we all have the potential to fall in love with either. If we accept that we are all One, then to oppose the bi-sexual qualities of our spirit is a massive contradiction, IMO.

:cool:

annabelle_lee
02-14-2012, 05:28 PM
Alchemy, BDSM, non-monogamy and GLBT are some the few things that I'm really passionate about so I was glad I could pull one of my loves into another for a small amount of time. Quite frankly I don't think that we can really know whether BDSM as we know it existed that many years ago. The social thought processes have shifted in the past two-thousand years, and what we now view as societally acceptable or... rather acceptable may not have been previously. This seems like an anthropological question, and alas, I have no experience in this regard.

Quite frankly I haven't ever really sat down to assess why people participate in the BDSM sub-culture. There are a variety of personal reasons, but I cannot speak to the conditioning going on around us. Hrm...

Andro
02-15-2012, 10:48 PM
What about fetishes, or asexuality, or homosexuality? Do they fit in anywhere in Alchemy, and if so, where?


Alchemy, BDSM, non-monogamy and GLBT are some the few things that I'm really passionate about so I was glad I could pull one of my loves into another for a small amount of time.

I've copied and pasted Annabelle-Lee's above post to this thread, because it seems like an opportunity to elaborate on the above mentioned topics in this thread's context...

Up to you, Annabelle-Lee, if you wish to take this further...

Do you view the above mentioned things you're passionate about as somehow interconnected?

annabelle_lee
02-18-2012, 12:17 PM
@Androg The things that I am passionate about are a part of me, and make up a good part of who I am however they are not connected beyond their application as a part of Annabelle. I don't practice sacred sexuality or integrate my kink into my practices. Now, I would imagine that having the joined energies of an alchemical pairing (straight, gay, bi, whatever) would add an interesting level of energy and oomph to the work.

So in short answer, not really. I can concieve of how each would lend itself to a total connection, but to date I have not explored that aspect of any of it.

What about yourself? Do you feel that they are connected from your perspective?

III
02-25-2012, 05:29 AM
Alchemy, BDSM, non-monogamy and GLBT are some the few things that I'm really passionate about so I was glad I could pull one of my loves into another for a small amount of time. Quite frankly I don't think that we can really know whether BDSM as we know it existed that many years ago. The social thought processes have shifted in the past two-thousand years, and what we now view as societally acceptable or... rather acceptable may not have been previously. This seems like an anthropological question, and alas, I have no experience in this regard.

Quite frankly I haven't ever really sat down to assess why people participate in the BDSM sub-culture. There are a variety of personal reasons, but I cannot speak to the conditioning going on around us. Hrm...

Hi Annabelle_lee,

Sometimes you just never know how these thimgs will manifest with any specific person in any specific occurrance.

The social thought processes have shifted in the past two-thousand years, and what we now view as societally acceptable or... rather acceptable may not have been previously. This seems like an anthropological question, and alas, I have no experience in this regard.

Acting out "old" archetypes can be unexpectedly rough. There are all sorts of dangers in activating these old ones. I have run some rough archetypes with ladies and have to be very careful to edit it thoroughly. There are always safe forms that can be run with a person to release traumas. It's best to be very careful working with some of these things.

Lunsola
03-19-2013, 08:00 PM
I think most people don't realize how utterly brainwashed they really are. Society teaches us all kinds of things that aren't right but why does society teach us those things? Because they believe those things benefit society. I think it's the fear of how great a homosexual experience can be that threatens the majority of people the most. The whole "well actually you can pretty much have feelings by rubbing up against and touching on anybody." thing really scares the hell out of some people. I guess another big fear is that people will realize you don't need to get married, have kids, or commit to strictly heterosexual relations. In many cases those things can reduce the quality of a person's life if that isn't what one truly wants. A lot of people think they need to do those things too. I just believe some people don't get how hardwired it was drilled into them from the very start of their lives. Keep in mind this coming from living in the bible belt in USA, I'm sure there are far more tolerant places somewhere out there.

Most homophobia enthusiasts cite the bible to persecute or speak against different people. The fact is though if you actually read the bible there is what 3 times in the entire thing that say anything about the matter at all. Of the two most cited ironically(ironic because when someone cites these, they usually reveal their hate.) because of the language and implications used I will mention them. Leviticus and somewhere later in the new testament speaks a line from paul about who will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Of course lobster and shrimp are apparently an equal abomination but you will never see a group of christians doing a hate rally at long johns. Paul isn't Jesus, Jesus never said anything about being gay but he sure did say things about the holier than thou pharisees. Sadly a lot of people in society are just like that these days. It's all about taught cultural values and some people can't break free from programming. I accept that there is a lot of wisdom and even alchemy references in the bible because it's there. But at the same time I acknowledge most likely some incorrect views from people's personal beliefs got thrown in the mix too.

Of course any sexuality or preference should be compatible with alchemy or any spirituality. Naturally one should look from a higher viewpoint. It's not like God/gods whichever you believe would have prejudice. Prejudice is a personal flaw, as it distorts the reality of viewing another person without knowing them.

So whatever anyone is out there or wants to be, as long as you aren't hurting someone else physically you should do what you want. It won't end the world, it won't ruin society. In fact it might just do the opposite.

solomon levi
03-20-2013, 12:16 AM
as i perceive, prejudice is not a personal flaw. prejudice is inherent in knowledge. only those completely present without knowledge or thought can justly cast a stone, but it is inherently impossible to do so from presence. :) all conditioning is prejudiced... even conditioning to be tolerant or christ-like. seeing that everyone is conditioned by their past experience, i wouldn't consider it personal, nor take it personally.
noticing the thread title, i really don't see a connection. being identified with/by sexual orientation seems to me a hinderance. i imagine if i were gay and reminded of it all the time, that would be quite an obstacle. i never think to myself "I am a heterosexual". it makes me sad thinking that some people are so identified with orientation. (not saying you are, or aren't, Lunsola). i understand society encourages such identification, just as it does ego identification... that hasn't stopped me from exercising the option.

Lunsola
03-20-2013, 02:52 AM
When I say prejudice I mean radical prejudice or hateful prejudice since I live in the bible belt. It's the type of prejudice here you notice because you can't not notice it. If one gets discovered, outed, or comes out then social problems like harassment frequently occur. When one often hears they will go to hell or watching someone get threatened or hurt it's not a fun experience. There are also corrective means some employ that are horrible. I know it's 2013 and all which is great but some parts of the world lag behind. Thankfully this isn't the worst place to be different in but it's still no New York, California, or Europe. I'm talking about the kind of hate where people try to dehumanize other people.

On a side note, that is actually the problem with many humans. They just want to find any reason to judge or hate another person and if that hate can lead to violence, making someone an outcast, or causing them to commit suicide then they can fuel their negative emotions even more so. Which is actually one of the many things I like about this forum, I don't sense any hate or judgement from the majority of the members. I have seen some heated debates but no one really got out of line. Meaning either they don't hold hate in their heart or perhaps they are exceptional at concealing it. Obviously the former would be preferred but either way if it doesn't affect the forum then this place stays a bit more pure and enjoyable.

There isn't anything too wrong with a bit of generalization because it can be useful and all of us do it. As long as it doesn't completely dictate someone's opinion of an individual or misguides someones actions. Of course even if it did the one really losing out would be the one generalizing.

I am bi and it's not that I'm completely fixed on my orientation as much as I am passionate about standing up for what's right. Identification is only important so that I know myself better and that I can be honest with others. All that said I look and act completely straight so I myself don't get harassed but a lot of others have and I don't like it. Which is why I say something, why I encourage others reading this forum to know they have allies here as well and I appreciate anyone who does the same.

solomon levi
03-20-2013, 03:55 AM
yeah. it's just pieces... if we fix this piece there's still a thousand pieces just like it. if people would focus on the real source of conflict it would change everything. as it is... divided and conquered. the nature of thought is separation. people won't give that up, so conflict will continue. seeing that at least allows individual peace, tolerance, which is 'better' than grudging. when we see firsthand the challenge of eliminating internal conflict, we hardly expect the world to follow suit and drop their egos... that's insane. before i deconstructed myself, i was full of ideas of how people should be. after, i know no one wants this death... how could i ask/expect?? insane. so it belongs to the few, not the masses, not society. and all these pieces... it's surgical, not healing/wholing. anyway, my talking about it is also an indulgence that changes nothing. :)

Lunsola
03-20-2013, 04:23 AM
True, there is much wisdom in zen.

Orbital
06-15-2013, 12:41 AM
Our society is so degenerated that some of us believe that homosexuality is normal moral behavior. The mainstream media is also doing a great job at pushing this thought stream. I have a hunch that being a homosexual in this life possibly has something to do with the karma of a previous lifetime. The fruits of tantra cannot be had through a homosexual union, just as the fruits of alchemy cannot be had by combining mercury+mercury or sulfur+sulfur and expecting great results.

This world is almost completely corrupt and is degenerating day by day.

III
06-15-2013, 07:17 PM
Our society is so degenerated that some of us believe that homosexuality is normal moral behavior. The mainstream media is also doing a great job at pushing this thought stream. I have a hunch that being a homosexual in this life possibly has something to do with the karma of a previous lifetime. The fruits of tantra cannot be had through a homosexual union, just as the fruits of alchemy cannot be had by combining mercury+mercury or sulfur+sulfur and expecting great results.

This world is almost completely corrupt and is degenerating day by day.

'lo Orbital,

This world is almost completely corrupt and is degenerating day by day

And you know this how? I would expect that you have to have achieved the Alchemical marriage and Alchemical Union to KNOW these things. And this does not at all sound like a genuine Tantra. Instead it sounds like somebody who is afraid of the changes occurring in the creation during this transitional period, afraid of expanding understandings knocking the foundations from underneath ones favored mythology.

Perhaps a more accurate assessment is that this world within this creation is evolving as underlying understandings change. During such evolution those affected often vent their degenerating mor(t)al mythologies at those who believe differently.

The fruits of tantra cannot be had through a homosexual union,

And you know this by experience? And which Tantra says this? And maybe one or more do so state? Does it matter? The things that happen in the practice of Alchemy are "impossible" until they happen and then it has "always been that way". I know the Yoni Tantra states essentially that "no other practices are necessary" beside those in the Yoni Tantra however it doesn't say that those are the only practices possible for achieving of Alchemical Union, which is generally poorly understood anyway since with these many variations of consciousness people can only really know what they are getting themselves into after doing so.

Alchemical Union requires the energies be complementary in a metaphysical technical sense, i.e. Shiva ^ Shakti energies. Since it is a working with that which defines our beings at a level that is not physical or gendered in the first place I'm not really sure how body gender comes into the equation.

It's taken me 53 years of practice in this lifetime to find and teach one suitable person, who I had worked with in other lives, to the point of being able to achieve Alchemical Union with me. Admittedly it isn't easy.

BE IN LOVE

Lunsola
06-15-2013, 08:02 PM
In my opinion sexuality in humans follows the bell curve. It just doesn't show up because of so much social programming and negativity towards homosexuality. There are some exclusive hetero and homo people out there but they are the minority. The vast majority of people are bisexual in my opinion. Kind of like how so many people think homosexuality is a choice. If you think homosexuality is a choice then you're clearly bisexual because it isn't a choice for a real heterosexual.

Also, I think I may be more of a pansexual than a bisexual. Thought I would mention that so I'd get more hate points from the purity crew lol.

Orbital
06-16-2013, 01:26 AM
Hello hello III,


Perhaps a more accurate assessment is that this world within this creation is evolving as underlying understandings change. During such evolution those affected often vent their degenerating mor(t)al mythologies at those who believe differently.

No, I would argue that this world within this creation is de evolving due to the desires of groups who wish to govern and control the masses by any means necessary. I think the development of humanity has been arrested. A population that is degenerated, corrupt, lacking of moral fortitude, and destitute of real intelligence is a lot easier to control and guide than one which has strong moral and ethical foundations coupled with real intelligence, which is not given by this compulsory education system we have here in this country (the US) today. People are taught what to think and not how to think. People are given a servite education in order to prepare them for medial slave jobs, where they don't have to think much throughout all of their lives. Mind control baby, that's what we're dealing with here. It's really sad. The water supplies throughout most of the United States have also been fluoridated to ensure the complacency of the population.


And you know this by experience?

No, currently I do not have this experience as I do not have a partner to engage in tantra with. Right now I am left alone to practice my pranayama exercises in chastity in order to transmute my sexual forces until I have a partner. I do, however, look out at nature and see how nature operates and try to draw my ideas from that. Nature, here in this plane, seems to operate in duality or opposites. Just because society is mostly degenerated and wants people to accept homosexuality as respectable and common behavior does not mean that it is also something I need to allow in to my esoteric practices. The female body is designed differently than that of a male, it should follow that the type of sexual force created by the female is different than that of the male, and when these forces are combined in tantra I have faith that it is an incredible thing.

Those who wish to practice black magick are free to practice it. If that is your will or anyone else's then so be it.



Lunsola,


Also, I think I may be more of a pansexual than a bisexual. Thought I would mention that so I'd get more hate points from the purity crew

I have no hate towards homosexuals or sexual deviants/ perverts. Compassion and sorrow, but not hate. A majority of people don't realize that which they do or why they do it. Most people act to fulfill sensual desires and that is all. Like animals. I tend to think that people who align themselves with the pansexual type of lifestyle (and their numbers are growing) are simply full of lust. Most people don't even know who they are themselves, let alone trying to understand and learn one other person in a relationship is quite a task for a couple. These pansexuals who try to learn and understand multiple individuals in an open relationship just seems ludicrous, lustful, and selfish. They use to be called swingers, but now society has normalized this deviant behaviour and given it a politically correct term so now they're called pansexuals. It's so silly.

Anything inherently bad always sounds better when you change the name of it to something lighter and more endearing. Example: paedophilia vs man boy love, rape vs sexual assault, illegal alien vs undocumented worker... I could go on. Just because something sounds good doesn't make it good.

Lunsola
06-16-2013, 03:34 AM
So Orbital, you have never actually practiced tantra with a partner and really don't know what will happen. I don't deny there are benefits to chastity but it's not the end all be all in useful things. I have known those who have traversed this path and all I will say to you is good luck.

Really, you have no hate towards different people? Well then maybe you should choose your words better. It's not nice hearing how people like me are degenerate, have bad karma, or are selfish. You've made some pretty big assumptions about pansexuals. Let me correct you for at least one of us in that I am a virgin, probably a lot more pure of heart than you would think. I'm actually very kind and generous but not all people are drawn to me so they don't find out.

Besides that, morality as created by people on this earth isn't even as tied to sex as some people believe. Honesty and keeping trust matters, beyond that if someone wants to have casual encounters there isn't a reason not to. The only thing against casual sex is religion which has no legitimacy on it's own. We're just set here on this earth with no real proof or guide of anything. Of course some people want it to be a certain way so they come up with lies and illusions but some of us are lucky enough not to fall for it.

There is no deviant behavior, society has not become more corrupt in the last 100 years. People are, have been, and always will be perverts. The only reason it seems different now is because there's things like television, internet, radio, and more personal communication. People are simply more aware of other people's actions now locally and in other parts in the world. If you would study some history of ancient cultures you would find this to be true. There was man boy love in many parts of the world, there were orgies, polygamy, and many so called "deviant" sexual practices thriving being used by a large variety of people. This is not deviant, this is the norm for those people. Normal only exists as a perspective which is just one perspective, I don't really believe in "normal". In many countries parents raise their children to believe the religious lie of purity and how it's tied to being a good person and going to heaven. Some people can't overcome the programming, others can. Thing is, not everybody has a pure childhood, not everybody can choose to fit into this perfect life vision that purist type people want. Not all of us want it and will not have it and you don't have any proof that we're any more degenerate than you.

III
06-16-2013, 04:34 AM
Hello hello III,



No, I would argue that this world within this creation is de evolving due to the desires of groups who wish to govern and control the masses by any means necessary. I think the development of humanity has been arrested. A population that is degenerated, corrupt, lacking of moral fortitude, and destitute of real intelligence is a lot easier to control and guide than one which has strong moral and ethical foundations coupled with real intelligence, which is not given by this compulsory education system we have here in this country (the US) today. People are taught what to think and not how to think. People are given a servite education in order to prepare them for medial slave jobs, where they don't have to think much throughout all of their lives. Mind control baby, that's what we're dealing with here. It's really sad. The water supplies throughout most of the United States have also been fluoridated to ensure the complacency of the population.



No, currently I do not have this experience as I do not have a partner to engage in tantra with. Right now I am left alone to practice my pranayama exercises in chastity in order to transmute my sexual forces until I have a partner. I do, however, look out at nature and see how nature operates and try to draw my ideas from that. Nature, here in this plane, seems to operate in duality or opposites. Just because society is mostly degenerated and wants people to accept homosexuality as respectable and common behavior does not mean that it is also something I need to allow in to my esoteric practices. The female body is designed differently than that of a male, it should follow that the type of sexual force created by the female is different than that of the male, and when these forces are combined in tantra I have faith that it is an incredible thing.

Those who wish to practice black magick are free to practice it. If that is your will or anyone else's then so be it.



Lunsola,



I have no hate towards homosexuals or sexual deviants/ perverts. Compassion and sorrow, but not hate. A majority of people don't realize that which they do or why they do it. Most people act to fulfill sensual desires and that is all. Like animals. I tend to think that people who align themselves with the pansexual type of lifestyle (and their numbers are growing) are simply full of lust. Most people don't even know who they are themselves, let alone trying to understand and learn one other person in a relationship is quite a task for a couple. These pansexuals who try to learn and understand multiple individuals in an open relationship just seems ludicrous, lustful, and selfish. They use to be called swingers, but now society has normalized this deviant behaviour and given it a politically correct term so now they're called pansexuals. It's so silly.

Anything inherently bad always sounds better when you change the name of it to something lighter and more endearing. Example: paedophilia vs man boy love, rape vs sexual assault, illegal alien vs undocumented worker... I could go on. Just because something sounds good doesn't make it good.

Hi Orbital,

No, I would argue that this world within this creation is de evolving

While there is a lot of turmoil and crap, it is the process of evolutionary changes pushing the "shit" to the surface, purification. It's a necessary step which most everybody is undergoing and is very misunderstood. The only thing YOU can change is yourself.

Orbital
06-16-2013, 05:55 AM
Lunsola,

No, I have never practiced tantra and I don't know what will happen, though I am willing to find out. If this thing/ act is a complete waste of time then so be it. If I do or don't find out then so be it. Better preparing my body and mind for something higher than wasting precious time watching television and playing video games.

I've never met a pansexual virgin before. I find it odd that you give yourself that sexual label yet you've never engaged in the sexual act with anyone before. I love learning new things.

The word religion has been bastardized. Religion means union, just as yoga means union. Religion, re-legion. I do believe that morality is universal. At the heart of all true religions you'll find the same inherent teachings. Is dogma from certain religions the only thing against casual sex? I don't think it's the only thing. I've had lots of casual sex, atleast this I can speak of from experience, and I will tell you that it is a silly waste of time and can also lead to pain and suffering. Casual sex is typically lust. Sex is a sacred thing, and I applaud you for your virginity. Though, if you're a virgin who masterbates and experiences the orgasm it's pretty much just as bad. So what is the truth? Are we free to do whatever we want, whenever we want, and do whoever we want free from repricussion or karmic backlash? Is there any point to being a good person? What is good? You seem to know, and I seem lost. We are here on this earth, and the proof is in the pudding so to speak, the guides are to be found all over if you take the time to look and have the right tools to find see and listen.

I disagree with you. Society has become more corrupt in the last 100 years. It's exponential with the amount of people. Society has become more corrupt, because there has been a concerted effort by certain groups of people (CIA, Fabian Society, Club of Rome, Esalin Institute, the CFR, etc. etc.) to brainwash and remove old values that people use to share that held them together. Look up the movie called, "The Century of the Self" if you haven't seen it before. This stuff is real, it is worse now. If you're not familiar with MK-Ultra I'd look into that too. The MK-Ultra stuff we have knowledge of is only information that the government acknowledged it had been doing in the 70's and prior, so we can only imagine how far advanced their techniques are now. Like I said prior, it is easier to control degenerates than it is to control people with strong moral and ethical values. "Predictive programming" is the term. There is such a thing as "normal", kidding yourself that there isn't is just lying to oneself. Normal is "conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern". Some things that are "normal" are not right, and some are.

Don't worry about anything I've said though. Who am I? Probably the biggest low-life here. Perhaps I have it wrong. Go out there into the world, go and do whatever... I mean whatever you want without any worry for anything negative or positive happening because of any of your actions. Nothing will happen.
Sleep with whoever you want. Boy, girl, transvestite.. it's your body right? Who am I to care?
The law of cause and effect need not apply to the things you or anyone does here if you don't believe it. If you don't belive it, then it doesn't exist right? What is pure and impure? It doesn't matter right?

I'm sorry I really am.






III,

I hope you're right, and I couldnt agree with you more about the change thing.

Andro
06-16-2013, 07:02 AM
Who am I? Probably the biggest low-life here.

I don't think you're "the biggest low-life here''. From the way you write, I think you are just trying to 'find your way' in this chaotically ordered reality, and 'testing the waters', so to speak, with various concepts/ideologies. I think we all do, to various degrees of refinement.

The one thing I would personally prefer, is for you not to make it more difficult for others with lofty statements about morality, such as you have made earlier.
Don't make it harder for them to cope with who they are, by using such lofty value judgements. For the less thick-skinned, it's already hard enough as it is to cope with being different from the 'norm du jour'.
You are indirectly calling 'immoral' and 'degenerate' people who were born sexually 'wired' a bit differently than you (myself included).
What kind of light do you think such statements shed on you?

I would advise to read carefully what III has written about bodies and sexual/spiritual energies.
It's usually a pleasure to listen to his experience-based perspectives.

We are 'growing' constantly, going through our own cycles of rectification. Some people here on AF (for example) are not the same as they were 3 or 4 years ago.

Personally, I have learned A LOT here. Not through debates about who has the moral high-ground (no such thing, IMO) but through mutual respect and allowance.
Finding Common Ground can be a difficult task, but much more constructive and rewarding, IMO.

If it weren't for Diversity, there would be no magic... And if it weren't for Common Ground, there would be no reality to agree upon and play in :)

So live and let live / be and let be, my dear :)

The secret groups and the fluoride in the water are better left for other areas of this forum. This one here is about sexual orientation & alchemy.

As for Sulfur and Mercury, I know VERY few people who comprehend their natures and relationship, and even less who understand their provenance and sequence of generation/genesis.

I may address this at another time.

Cheers.

Awani
06-16-2013, 11:29 AM
statements about morality...


"Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual." - Nietzsche

:)


The secret groups and the fluoride in the water are better left for other areas of this forum.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3615-Water-fluoridation&p=30395

:cool:

Orbital
06-16-2013, 03:30 PM
"Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual." - Nietzsche

I take quotes from Nietzsche with a grain of salt, the poor man was a manic depressive. Nietzsche reminds me of the William S. Burroughs of his day. Sorry, Nietzsche's thoughts don't hold much sand to me. I'm open to hearing his quotes, but I think it's important to remember who the man was a whole. Not going to shoot the messenger and dismiss all of his ideas, just most of them.



The secret groups and the fluoride in the water are better left for other areas of this forum

I knew this topic would come up, but when claims as to why society is debased and certain streams of thought are coming to the forefront, it's important to know where some of these views came from and why they're here. Most people think that culture comes from the bottom up, but more often than not cutlure is given to society from the top down. The culture creators are doing a great job at changing things, destroying the middle class and the family unit. Using schools as grounds for propoganda to infect the young minds...


You are indirectly calling 'immoral' and 'degenerate' people who were born sexually 'wired' a bit differently than you (myself included).
What kind of light do you think such statements shed on you?

This thread topic is definitely going to ruffle some feathers. Whoever got this ball rolling surely must have known this would be the case. The Dhali Llama once commented in an interview that sex in general is for procreation, and homosexuality seems a bit unnatural... to which I agree. It's not that hard for human beings to hard wire certain traits into themselves that can later become a part of their over-all character. All it takes is time and repitition.

My statements show where I stand on the topic, I don't mind what you think of me because of my thoughts on this issue. Just as you as a grown homosexual man with your hard wired traits shouldn't mind my difference in opinion. Some people like to sugarcoat things. All this pc mumbo jumbo has people afraid of calling a spade a spade. I don't hate you for who you are as a person, I just don't agree with your lifestyle, just as you don't agree with a hetero lifestyle. That's ok. The differences we find in this reality helps us find truths for ourselves. At the very least we can learn from our differences, but that doesn't mean we have to agree 100% on anything.


Back to the issue of, "sexual orientation and alchemy". After thinking about this topic I hold the opinion that the fruits from the labors of a union of a man+women will be different from that of a man+man or a woman+woman. The subtle energies carried by the differences in sex simply are not the same. A man can roleplay and pretend that he's a woman, just as a woman can pretend she's a man. However, roleplaying does not change the physicality and inherent subtle energies that are carried by these individuals.

Andro
06-16-2013, 04:30 PM
just as you don't agree with a hetero lifestyle.

If you meant me, I never said that. Herero is perfectly fine with me. Just one color/variation amongst others. Also good for making babies, if one is so inclined.

But sexual energy has countless other avenues of expression.


All this pc mumbo jumbo has people afraid of calling a spade a spade.

And all this homophobic bigotry had LGBT people afraid to be themselves and live their lives to the fullest for millenia, afraid of bullying, punishments and even legalized murder by churches and states (still happening in Iran, for example).


It's not that hard for human beings to hard wire certain traits into themselves that can later become a part of their over-all character. All it takes is time and repetition.

Have you trained or hardwired yourself to become a hetero with time and repetition? Or were you born this way?
__________________________________________________ _________

I'll leave it at that for now. That's who you are and this is what you are currently able to grasp with your thoughts. It's OK and I understand.

I'm also fully OK with you expressing your views. I think they're narrow minded and severely uninformed, but it's your right to express them nevertheless - as long as you don't attack/insult/harass anyone personally.

PS: Link to full movie on YouTube: Prayers for Bobby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5TyY8RaxI) (true story).

PPS: More directly related to Alchemy, I find THIS POST (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1197-Sexual-orientation-and-Alchemy&p=14477#post14477) to be quite special in the context of this thread.
Anthropomorphizing Alchemy may lead to disappointing dead ends.
What's the gender of The Stone? What's its sexual orientation?

Orbital
06-16-2013, 05:38 PM
I love you Androgynus.
I'm glad you're gay and honest with yourself.

Why I'm not gay like you, I don't know. Is it because of karma? Is it the DNA? Why is our DNA created the way it is? Out of pure coincidence? I tend not to think so. Everything seems to happen for a reason. Even if that reason seems completely absurd.

What is true of this life is that it ends. Is there a debt that needs to be paid for because of the actions created by the individual in this life when this life is over? I tend to think so. Just as certain debts are paid while you are still alive. That makes a lot more sense to me than the viewpoint of a nihilist. Freddy Mercury sang that, "nothing really matters" and he turned out ok huh? William Burroughs lived a life where nothing really mattered too, he also turned out ok don't you think? I mean, his son did ok by his father wouldn't you agree? Does nothing we do here matter?

I saw that movie about Letters to Bobby, it's really sad. Let the gays be gays I say. Just let them keep it to themselves. I don't mind gay marriage either. God doesn't care if people have certain papers saying they're legally married to one another. Marriage is akin to starting a new corporation/ corporate identity, that's all that is. I also have a problem with homosexual literature being pushed into elementary schools for children to have to start grasping homosexual concepts.. I'm sure we're going to see a lot more gays in the future because of this.

III
06-16-2013, 05:46 PM
I take quotes from Nietzsche with a grain of salt, the poor man was a manic depressive. Nietzsche reminds me of the William S. Burroughs of his day. Sorry, Nietzsche's thoughts don't hold much sand to me. I'm open to hearing his quotes, but I think it's important to remember who the man was a whole. Not going to shoot the messenger and dismiss all of his ideas, just most of them.




I knew this topic would come up, but when claims as to why society is debased and certain streams of thought are coming to the forefront, it's important to know where some of these views came from and why they're here. Most people think that culture comes from the bottom up, but more often than not cutlure is given to society from the top down. The culture creators are doing a great job at changing things, destroying the middle class and the family unit. Using schools as grounds for propoganda to infect the young minds...



This thread topic is definitely going to ruffle some feathers. Whoever got this ball rolling surely must have known this would be the case. The Dhali Llama once commented in an interview that sex in general is for procreation, and homosexuality seems a bit unnatural... to which I agree. It's not that hard for human beings to hard wire certain traits into themselves that can later become a part of their over-all character. All it takes is time and repitition.

My statements show where I stand on the topic, I don't mind what you think of me because of my thoughts on this issue. Just as you as a grown homosexual man with your hard wired traits shouldn't mind my difference in opinion. Some people like to sugarcoat things. All this pc mumbo jumbo has people afraid of calling a spade a spade. I don't hate you for who you are as a person, I just don't agree with your lifestyle, just as you don't agree with a hetero lifestyle. That's ok. The differences we find in this reality helps us find truths for ourselves. At the very least we can learn from our differences, but that doesn't mean we have to agree 100% on anything.


Back to the issue of, "sexual orientation and alchemy". After thinking about this topic I hold the opinion that the fruits from the labors of a union of a man+women will be different from that of a man+man or a woman+woman. The subtle energies carried by the differences in sex simply are not the same. A man can roleplay and pretend that he's a woman, just as a woman can pretend she's a man. However, roleplaying does not change the physicality and inherent subtle energies that are carried by these individuals.


Hi orbital,

Something is missing in your understanding of the situation. When one does the alchemical marriage one has unified the male and female energies. If you take a look at the representation of the Shiva after alchemical union, just as many Alchemists have been represented through the centuries, half man and half woman. Lots of men are confused by my energies. I am both an initiated priest and priestess. It isn't role playing. It's playing the archetypes. I'm versatile. Giving (channeling?) Shaktipat is not gendered.


The Dhali Llama once commented in an interview that sex in general is for procreation, and homosexuality seems a bit unnatural.. .

The Dhali Llama practice(s?d?) a celibate form, not the celebrate form. He is a renunciate. Maybe it is just a spelling mistake, but it hardly makes for an experienced full sex Tantric Alchemist. There is nothing at all natural and procreative about practicing Alchemical Yoni puja, Lingam puja and multi hour Maithuna privately and in invocational groups. In my entire life, out of thousands of episodes of sexual activities, only 3 of them were "natural" procreative and those we recognized in advance. For somebody who likely learned to invoke a tulpa for tantric sex talking about any sex act between humans seeming "unnatural" seems kind of unnatural to me.

So around here we have the polygamists who think it is perfectly proper and natural for the polygamist leaders (Mormon definition) to marry and impregnate lot of young teenaged girls. Somebody's idea of "natural" is meaningless. Nothing an Alchemist does is "natural". "Natural" doesn't lead to Self Realization. Newtonian mechanics might be considered "natural". Quantum mechanics is just as natural?

Each of the varieties of Tantra has told the story in a way that allowed them to mostly survive in their society. When it became the search for gold instead of spiritual work in some of the world, obscuring the reality of the secret, Tantra was re-imported several times, as sex magik, as Blavatsky's peculiar interpretations and so on.

Orbital
06-16-2013, 06:25 PM
III,

Thank you for your post. You've left me with a lot to ponder.
_________________________________________________

Mod Note: Off topic (not related to "sexual orientation & alchemy") continued HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3261-Tantric-Alchemy&p=30655#post30655) (on the Tantric Alchemy (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3261-Tantric-Alchemy) thread), where it's more at home.

III
06-16-2013, 07:21 PM
Hi Orbital,

You make an awful lot of assumptions. For instance just the words "hetero lifestyle" or "gay lifestyle". I'm used to hear that "lifestyle" word amongst those who adopt "swinger lifestyle" or "BDSM lifestyle". What pray tell is a "hetero lifestyle". My lifestyle is as a suburban "Way of Ordinary Life" or in different terms a Householder Yogi. My best friend and alchemical partner is a woman. However, approximately 97% of our time together has nothing to do with sex or gender. The garden doesn't know or care who is tending it. The house doesn't know or care who is painting it or paying for it. As far as those of the LGBT community I know and associate with, they no more have a "gay" lifestyle then I have a "hetero" lifestyle. I spend the summer at a nudist camp living a minimalist lifestyle. Most nudist clubs are not sexual in outlook. There are various members of the LGBT community who also go there. Right now the area of dispute is the same as in the textile compulsive world, what constitutes a "family" or couple to get the family or couple rates. Some clubs have avoided that completely by having the couple price as 2x the single price and children are free. There are other "traditional" prejudices that are still getting worked out. Some clubs ban body piercings because they are "designed to draw attention" to body parts. Acceptance of piercings, tattoos and even body painting is much more controversial. Some clubs make LGBT an issue and many don't mention it at all. While it may be possible to have clothing that signals status and orientation and all that, the Rolex and clothing all come off and stay in the car. Skin is just skin. Body hair grooming is near universal and says nothing about gender preferences.

I don't happen to think that teaching kids acceptance of themselves and others, rather than universal xenophobia, at school is going to cause any explosion of homosexual anything.

Orbital
06-16-2013, 09:27 PM
I'm awfully sorry here. For all parties I've offended. Please forgive me for my ignorance, and negative words. I assumed a hetero lifestyle was one where heterosexuals lived life together and the way they engage in sexual intercourse, that's their style. A homosexual lifestyle is one where homosexuals live their life together and did their thing... the way they engage in sex is their style. My assumptions have led me to making an ass out of myself. Perhaps I do have it backwards and homosexuals are more advanced in their ways of thinking than the way I see things. Maybe I need to get off my high horse and take a hard cock in the ass, or to go out and find a strapping young lad to cuddle up next to. Maybe that's the wake up call I need.

It's got to be obvious that going back in time the natural state of being may have been an androgyn, and that being decided to divide itself (in order to understand itself?). I think I need to remember that all is self to keep me from losing my way. If I remember that all is self then how can I be mad at you for how you behave and live your life? It would be like being mad at myself... Divide and conquer is how the controllers like to pit us against ourselves, but we're all one. Sorry if I think the LGBT way is a little weird to me, but I guess that's just a part of myself I need to work on.

When I look back at earlier posts on this thread it seems that anyone who had any thoughts against the LGBT way were shown the light as well. You're right III, it's great that children be taught about homosexuality and perhaps they should even be encouraged to go out and experiment sexually with other children of the same sex in order to have a better understanding of who they really are. It's also a great idea that some boys are given traditional girl names and some girls given traditional boy names... just to shake things up. It sorta brings a smile to my face now when I remember old news stories about boys dressed up as little girls and playing with girl toys. That's really great the more I think about it. What is gender anyways? Heck, maybe paedophillia and incest aren't that bad either and society has just given these types of lifestyles and ways of thinking/ acting a bad rap as well. After all, what is normal? Some catholic priests have been doing the paedo thing for quite some time, do they know something we don't? Shoot, they're even getting away with it. In a perfect world, I guess we can have sex with whomever we want as long as it's consented. After all, it's just sex right? No harm no foul?

My thoughts on alchemy also need to change. Here I was thinking it was about the unification of opposites, not only internally but externally. Perhaps it is really about the unification of things that are the same that lead to the proverbial gold. Gosh, I'm in real need of a soul shakedown party...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtyvMybXgc8

III
06-17-2013, 05:42 AM
I'm awfully sorry here. For all parties I've offended. Please forgive me for my ignorance, and negative words. I assumed a hetero lifestyle was one where heterosexuals lived life together and the way they engage in sexual intercourse, that's their style. A homosexual lifestyle is one where homosexuals live their life together and did their thing... the way they engage in sex is their style. My assumptions have led me to making an ass out of myself. Perhaps I do have it backwards and homosexuals are more advanced in their ways of thinking than the way I see things. Maybe I need to get off my high horse and take a hard cock in the ass, or to go out and find a strapping young lad to cuddle up next to. Maybe that's the wake up call I need.

It's got to be obvious that going back in time the natural state of being may have been an androgyn, and that being decided to divide itself (in order to understand itself?). I think I need to remember that all is self to keep me from losing my way. If I remember that all is self then how can I be mad at you for how you behave and live your life? It would be like being mad at myself... Divide and conquer is how the controllers like to pit us against ourselves, but we're all one. Sorry if I think the LGBT way is a little weird to me, but I guess that's just a part of myself I need to work on.

When I look back at earlier posts on this thread it seems that anyone who had any thoughts against the LGBT way were shown the light as well. You're right III, it's great that children be taught about homosexuality and perhaps they should even be encouraged to go out and experiment sexually with other children of the same sex in order to have a better understanding of who they really are. It's also a great idea that some boys are given traditional girl names and some girls given traditional boy names... just to shake things up. It sorta brings a smile to my face now when I remember old news stories about boys dressed up as little girls and playing with girl toys. That's really great the more I think about it. What is gender anyways? Heck, maybe paedophillia and incest aren't that bad either and society has just given these types of lifestyles and ways of thinking/ acting a bad rap as well. After all, what is normal? Some catholic priests have been doing the paedo thing for quite some time, do they know something we don't? Shoot, they're even getting away with it. In a perfect world, I guess we can have sex with whomever we want as long as it's consented. After all, it's just sex right? No harm no foul?

My thoughts on alchemy also need to change. Here I was thinking it was about the unification of opposites, not only internally but externally. Perhaps it is really about the unification of things that are the same that lead to the proverbial gold. Gosh, I'm in real need of a soul shakedown party...



Hi Orbital,

I made no ridiculous statements as you appear to attribute to me in your reductum ad absurdum. Now that you got that thick bit of sarcastic overkill out perhaps you can get past your filtering of whatever is going on. I don't think that I conveyed my intended meaning of "I don't happen to think that teaching kids acceptance of themselves and others, rather than universal xenophobia,". The teaching of fear of those who are different include race, ethnic origins, medical problems, religion, beards, piercings, tattoos, hair length, political party of parents, sexual preferences of parents. My kids underwent considerable discrimination and were feared as the non Mormons. Somewhere you are on lists that will get you and your kids discriminated against many different places. Is that what you want taught?

I would suggest that you would probably have a lot of problems with doing a Tantric Alchemy as you appear to have so much fear and anger that you would need to exam and change. You might even find high intensity LOVE to be most unpleasant or worse. I think it could be a large struggle for you.

As to what children are taught right now, culturally and at school, about what to think about their bodies and sex produces a lot of ill health and really some outright insanity. The schools are no place to teach kids to despise themselves and others. I have no idea how long it will take to get through the current upheavals but it will continue as long as people keep having stuff coming up because of the underlying metaphysical changes that have occurred.

Orbital
06-17-2013, 06:59 AM
You're right III. It's like Yoda's teachings from Star Wars about fear leading to anger and anger to pain and pain to suffering. There's no place for any of that here or in tantra. I'm sorry to hear about the pain your children had to endure at school for not being mormon. I'm terrified of having to send my children through the public school system, and would do what I can (if I can) to homeschool them. There's me being afraid again... Maybe I need to learn to just let go and stop caring about why others are the way they are, and why the world is in the state it is in. This reality just makes me so sad at times (most times). There is so much pain and suffering, and me saying this or that about the characteristics of someone else is never going to change how bad things are here. I must learn to bite my tongue and silence my fingers. I can't change bizarro world, but I can work on me.

It's like Androgynus' sig... "Drink the wine and let the world be the world". For what it's worth I'd like to give my sincere apologies to Lunasola and Androgynus as well, and to anyone else I offended in the process.

I love you all and I enjoy coming here and reading all of your posts. This is a special place and I thank you.

Lunsola
06-17-2013, 10:59 AM
You spelt my name wrong but if it's a truly sincere apology then I'll accept it. I understand what it's like to grow up with a lot of negative influences and I can understand how people make mistakes as it's easy to. I get that it's easy to give into hate and hard to change. I also understand what it's like to study in spiritual systems that don't end up going where one wants them to although I do wish you luck on your journey. Life can be confusing and we all make mistakes and have regrets but as long as we learn a lesson or have a greater insight it's not a total loss. Progress isn't always made so fast but when it is in certain areas it is very much welcomed. I think the future for lbgt people will continue to improve, especially those of us who are alchemists since it's a good combination.

Ghislain
06-17-2013, 11:20 AM
My Two-Penneth


I believe that the subject of sex and sexuality covers such a broad spectrum that it would take years
to cover it here.

I would not like to have the responsibility of having to create the syllabus for our children at school,
but if there is one thing that must be taught it is tolerance across the board and the fact that every
individual is different even if they would like to think they are not. How well do we know ourselves?

As long as ones idiosyncrasies are not detrimentally imposed on another then IMO anything goes.

On the line of this thread, I have no idea what part sexuality has to play in Alchemy.

I am happy for you III if you have found your answers in Tantra.

For me the search goes on.

Ghislain

III
06-17-2013, 05:56 PM
My Two-Penneth


I believe that the subject of sex and sexuality covers such a broad spectrum that it would take years
to cover it here.

I would not like to have the responsibility of having to create the syllabus for our children at school,
but if there is one thing that must be taught it is tolerance across the board and the fact that every
individual is different even if they would like to think they are not. How well do we know ourselves?

As long as ones idiosyncrasies are not detrimentally imposed on another then IMO anything goes.

On the line of this thread, I have no idea what part sexuality has to play in Alchemy.

I am happy for you III if you have found your answers in Tantra.

For me the search goes on.

Ghislain

Hi Ghislain,

For me Tantra has supplied a lot more than an alchemical methodology. It supplied clues on nutrition for physical, sexual and neurological healing, and it was correct and exactly what I needed. I just needed a more concentrated form. The massage and physical aspects did well as an alternative physical therapy and the neurological "exercises", neurological patterning in current terminology, were good for help reverse some of damage of Sub Acute Combined Degeneration. Tantra gave me more clues for healing than over 100 docs ever did. It is a direct way to work with physiological psychology.


In college there were about a dozen of us hard core psyc majors that had talked about starting a school after about a decade of experience post schooling. I got sick for the next 30 years and never followed up. Then with 3 children I had my hands full. So my wife and I did a lot of thinking on the problem of raising healthy, in all senses of the word, children. They all had the same nutritional aberrations as I do. The local prejudices caused all sorts of problems.

On the line of this thread, I have no idea what part sexuality has to play in Alchemy.

The only thing we can each change is our self. I don't really know how to make that connection starting from scratch. I don't remember when, where or how that happened. I woke up in this life knowing it and how to do a form of Tantric alchemy. There are plenty of clues. There are dozens of specific energy access points that can cause release of a variety of neurotransmitters, hormones and various biochemical changes. It's as if some of these energies are sort of the modem carrier signal for prayer energies. Taking the phrase "when 2 or more are gathered in my name, there so am I" as a guide to invoking into communion with the living God(des). Sex is a very powerful meditative tool. My partner and I can go into Eternal time with a couple of minute hug, after much practice. I know of no more direct way. And I've got to say, it produces results relatively quickly. Think of the cosmic humor, within various cultural contexts, of putting a direct path to the divine hidden in sex.


The effect on a relationship is huge as one has to practice complete honesty and LOVE with one's partner. It really helps to have a partner providing "reflection" in order to see ones self honestly. Changes planned and made from ego go wrong. Only real self honesty can make it relatively safe. It takes honesty and trust to open totally to another person in LOVE. Learning to open to another, which happens in lots of steps is in effect the microcosm. Opening to the Divine is the same except for magnitude, macrocosm. A partner helps to provide balance in one's self design.

I don't know what part gender identity plays in any of this except that all sorts of things are likely to come up during purification. I don't know what part my preference played in any of this as I wasn't doing the selecting.

Something I want to say about all these things as connected to Tantric Alchemy; those I worked with were brought to me by, for lack of any better description, coincidence control. Starting in 7th grade the girls sought me out to tell their tales of rape, torture and murder and often abuse in this life as well, while in Tantric trance with me. I was able to share LOVE with each of them. There was no sex involved at that age but the experiences were powerful.

Good luck. BE IN LOVE

I don't know how it happens for anybody else or if it happens and just isn't recognized.

lwowl
06-17-2013, 06:02 PM
On the line of this thread, I have no idea what part sexuality has to play in Alchemy.

After many years of practicing Taoist alchemy methods for the sublimation of Jing, which is the method of transmuting the orgasm response into energy flow into the central channel of the subtle body, I have found that sexual orientation in alchemy is irrelevant. From an alchemical standpoint the whole exercise is to teach yourself how to gather and transform Jing or creation energy to nourish and evolve the subtle body. That is your homunculus.

Many succeed at the Taoist sexual practice which is of the same genera as Tantric practices. And that is certainly a great level of achievement. Some stay with it finding it to be quite comfortable. Getting to that level of personal evolution or transmutation is easiest to achieve through a “perversion” of the biological function of the Mysterium Connectionis. For to withhold the ejaculation is against nature: and that is alchemy. It creates a “fire against Nature” allowing one to concentrate Spiritus mundi. Once one is proficient at that sexual exercises are not necessary.

By comparison the easiest way to become aware of, and manifest Qi, is through breathing exercises. Once one can substantiate the circulation of Qi with the breath then one can circulate Qi without it being connected with the breath.

Once those two gems of alchemy are achieved the pores can open and Shen will distill through. The exhilaration of Shen is right up there with orgasmic sensation.

The breathing and the sexual deviation practices are the fast ways to awaken, nourish, and evolve the subtle body in the palengenisis of your homunculus which is becoming you as you are becoming it.

lwowl

Ghislain
06-18-2013, 01:43 PM
Thanks III and lwowl.

You have given me much food for thought.

Ghislain

III
06-18-2013, 09:02 PM
Thanks III and lwowl.

You have given me much food for thought.

Ghislain

Hi Ghislain,

I have worked alchemically with more men then women. Very little of Tantric alchemy has anything at all to do with sex. I can see where there is plenty of room for misunderstanding. Remember, E=MC^2 and M=E/(C^2). We are dealing with energy inside this virtual holodeck of a creation. When one allows in more LOVE (or anything else one wants to name it), the divine energy, uses that to add to one's self then in a very energetic reaction "burn off the dross" and "fuse" or "crystalize" the patterned (shaped) energy which takes a whole lot of energy that needs to be accumulated (retained) and compress it into "matter" which becomes then part of our conscious individuality. I like E.J. Gold's terminology, who speaks in terms of changing ourselves so that we become part of the ROM of the creation rather than part of the transitory RAM. This is what is spoken of in the middle of the movie THE MEANING OF LIFE, about the conscious construction of the eternal soul and then all distractions immediately take over and the thought is lost for the rest of the movie. EJ' Gold's group produced their own game engine GODD and used it to make games with alchemical and spiritual information. One of them is solving the Alchemist's laboratory, as a symbol and terminology and how that maps in spiritual terms.

An alchemical Yoni or Lingam puja might have any number participants of both genders all invoking and sharing the energies together and gender orientation having no part in it. There are a whole lot of men who reject the "female energies" because they don't want to be altered or "corrupted" by them and the same with women about "male energies". As the Alchemist is attempting the Alchemical marriage incorporating BOTH sets of energies rejecting half of ones self doesn't work.

Andro
12-05-2016, 03:40 PM
The title of this thread has been updated to include Gender Identity as well: Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Alchemy

For Non-Alchemical aspects of this topic, use this thread: Political & Cultural Aspects of Diversity in Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3634-Political-amp-Cultural-Aspects-of-Diversity-in-Sexual-Orientation-amp-Gender-Identity)

hexahedron
07-06-2017, 07:57 PM
I personally think this is an exciting area within Alchemy. Alchemy has always been a kind of hidden undiscovered truth of nature, and this is an area even more shrouded in mystery. A neglected corner of a hidden corner. I dunno why everyone is so worked up about the right way of doing things. reality is full of lots of different right ways of doing things. This should be about learning a system out of a pool of infinite systems.

That said, where do you all feel you fit in the fabric of reality? What aspects of Alchemy do you embody? We are all made up of the elements, how do you think the elements are flowing through your existence? How do you see the elements manifesting themselves in others? How do we differ (That is to say not how are other people wrong, but how do they vary)?

I feel like no one has really opened up about themselves and talked about how they are an Alchemical being, but so far everyone is talking about how sexuality plays a very specific role in Alchemy and binds certain principals. Sure man and woman make child, which would be something like Fire, since it's an expanding phenomenon, but what about the rest of the Universe? What's happening around the Fire? Is the Universe continually expanding? Or is it breathing (like in Indian belief)? Is it growing? Is it changing?
If people can become immortal, is it then sensical of them to have children, presuming that their children might to be immortal? Can we figure a way of expanding into space when we've reached immortality?

Do feminine men have a perfect balance of male and female aspects within themselves that they don't need a female partner? Would this extend to Earth and Water signed men, since these are negative signs? Can we understand the basic principals of reality outside of the canonical scriptures? Do the scriptures teach us absolute law or a language by which to observe reality?
What can you tell me about the language you have learned through the scriptures? Is it just to spout verbatim what you have read? The education system has taught us to do that in most first world countries.
Are Alchemists free thinkers?

Why are we all here? Do we want to learn?

Does anyone have visions? I'm curious what other people see. Our minds must be tied to one another's and to the underlying energies that surround us.

Maybe someone can answer all or even any of these. That would be nice. :)

elixirmixer
07-08-2017, 10:57 PM
Being a hetero-sexual male raised in a homofobic society, i would like to advocate on behalf of us hetero's, that all of humanity has been socially engineered to take one side of the coin and fight against the other.

It is a very difficult thing for us to understand when homosexuals say that they 'were born that way' unless of coarse you are paying attention. I have met many young homosexuals that never had an interest in women at all, ever, my wifes old childhood friend, lost his virginity to her, and her to him, and my wife is gorgeous btw, but for whatever reason, even having been exposed to the women form first (in fact many years before males), this didnt seem to do anything to sway that mans choices at all.

What im saying is that I do think that us heterosexuals are quite assumptive in assuming that one day these blokes just decided to wake up and order a sausage and two eggs for breakfast instead of an omelette. We all know that a certain 'lisp' can (not always) be associated with this difference in sexual orientation.this lisp is even seen in young men who apparently haven't made up their mind about sexual orientation but who almost always end up gay.

This kind of suggests that there really is something going on in the DNA thats effecting the orientation. Its like, are you right handed or are you left? statistically their are less left handers, and they were also burned at the stake in their dark days.

All in all, i think that heterosexuals are often blinded by their own lack of experience in this topic area, and that also, that homosexuals are often so caught up in trying to 'fight for their rights to parrrrrrrty' that they dont stop to consider how hard it actually is for a heterosexual male to see from the viewpoint of a homosexual male, since the heterosexual homophobics ego's number one defence mechanism is not to look at all feminine, or gay, or less macho in any regard really....

Heres another point i think of relevance... I've wanted to do a bit or role reversal, however the idea of my wife bending my over and piercing my tiny virgin butt, actually puts her off, seeing her man being a 'bitch' or taking a large rubber penis in the booty or face, for whatever reason, turns her right off (even the very idea as we've decided not to do it.)

So is homophobia all the mens fault? Do women have their part to play in "all these assumptions"........... all just points of discussion and reflection that ive notices in my travels.

Good day Ladies and Gentlmen

Awani
07-15-2017, 05:09 PM
All in all, i think that heterosexuals are often blinded by their own lack of experience in this topic area...

I have a homosexual friend in the UK who told me that he only fucks heterosexuals.


So is homophobia all the mens fault?

Yes, because they rarely complain about this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGjb3i5X7og

:p

hexahedron
08-10-2017, 07:18 AM
I dunno how difficult it is to see from someone else's perspective. We just need to try. We have this really certain impression of ourselves, our individuality, and our humanity, but really it is a fragile and precarious illusion.
There was a cool video I watched but I can't seem to find it now.
This looks related:
https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-illusion-of-the-self2

Andro
08-10-2017, 07:33 AM
We have this really certain impression of ourselves, our individuality, and our humanity, but really it is a fragile and precarious illusion.
This looks related: https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-illusion-of-the-self2

Excellent point and great article! Thanks for posting!


Many readers might wonder where these narratives come from, and who interprets them, if not a self?

Also see this: Genesis of Narratives (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5318-Genesis-of-Narratives).

Andro
08-10-2017, 08:06 AM
OH, BTW, watching some videos related to the above posts, I have just now discovered that James Randy publicly came out as gay at age 81 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QLt6EO3k28)!

Never too late! Go Randy!

Awani
08-10-2017, 09:16 AM
I wonder if anyone has ever "came in". You know after 20 years they go "no it is not my thing, I am actually straight".

:p

zoas23
08-10-2017, 03:07 PM
I wonder if anyone has ever "came in". You know after 20 years they go "no it is not my thing, I am actually straight".

I know two women who did such thing. One of them was 26 when she did it, the other was 35.
Though in both cases it was because they fell in love with a man and established a long term relationship with him.
None of them said something along the lines of "being a lesbian was not my thing, I am straight".
It was more like: "O.K... I want to be with this person now, I didn't expect such thing, it's weird, but that's how I feel now".

Though going back to the original subject of the thread, I do not really see a strong link between sexual orientation and alchemy.

elixirmixer
10-31-2017, 09:51 PM
I would just like to apologize for my previous behaviour. Raised in a very bigoted country; with a delusional christian perspective; being manipulated into a 'this is how it is' reality, has lead me to say things and make claims against certain people's way of Life.

I just want to say Andro that after studying a decent portion of your works on this site, I would have to say that I don't know anyone who has taught me more about life, myself, and the universe at large.

My comments about homosexuality damaging spiritual progress is obviously completely flawed. Im very sorry for the offensive things I said and I hope you forgive my naive behaviour.

Before I found this website I walked around with a sense of intellectual superiority over others. I could smash anyone in a debate; considered myself the smartest person I knew, and felt sorry for everyone else and tried my hardest to impress as much knowlege on others as I could.

Now I realise "You know nothing John Snow" (my wife thinks I look like him lol)

I have learnt more from you Andro about spirituality than anyone I've ever had the pleasure of encountering, all the while basically being a smart ass in return.

Im sorry. And part of humility is to give credit where credit is due, so this is not an ass kissing; its just what I feel is deserved. Thank you for all you've done for me. You and Dev single handedly ripped me out of the Mormon brainwashing; which I can see very clearly now is another form of Demiurge.

If I do find God it will be because of the good people of Alchemyforums.com; Franz Bardon; and thats about it since everything else wants to see me in the mud. I love you guys.

If you ever need anything....

Awani
10-31-2017, 10:12 PM
I know how you feel regarding brainwashing. And just when I think I have washed my brain clean... I see even more stains... that is how it is for me. LOL.

The great thing with new perspectives is that it is very liberating. Enjoy and love... :)


Now I realise "You know nothing..."

Then you know everything. ;)


If I do find God...


I love...

Wink wink...

:p

elixirmixer
10-31-2017, 10:37 PM
I can tell you've had a big growth year also Awani. Good Good. Send me some Ayuasca you prick :p

Awani
10-31-2017, 11:09 PM
http://sacredvalleytribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/20430002_10159023491770177_2411592822336888887_n.j pg

And to keep with the thread, yes Vader is gay..

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/68/74/00/687400e4cdaa469080f64d5ec07e5f37--funny-posts-funny-shit.jpg

...and if you think about it "his" story arc in Star Wars is - in spiritual terms - the perfect metaphor for the alchemical transmutation, IMO (child, rebel, downward spiral, evil, redemption and ascension).

:p