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Awani
04-02-2010, 09:38 PM
Ask yourself:
Am I an Artist - or Scientist - that strives for originality without a place in society? Am I sick of corruption, greed, vanity and the endless and meaningless struggles of so-called normal life? Need to meet and live and work together with others like us? If all answers to these questions are YES then for the sake of your soul read on… here (http://www.deviadah.com/lab.html)

Ignore the parts of vegetarianism, that needs to be removed/changed...

:cool:

Andro
04-02-2010, 09:45 PM
Thanks for the link.

I've already seen this page - but if it's possible, it would be nice to find out more...

Like - where the project is at, what more needs to be done, or any help/ideas/input that may be needed.

Awani
04-02-2010, 09:51 PM
Well in short the concept of the Factory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Factory) or the Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy) has died away, or never been done properly. There needs to be artists and scientists working together in an environment that if free of all the obligations/pressures of reality.

What is needed?

- Artists
- Scientists
- Building
- And the will to want to live there in a sort of community where it is also possible to be a hermit

In the beginning there will be costs, but the aim is to be self-sustained and that works of art and inventions generate money to the Lab so its residents don't need to worry about paying rent, buying food or cleaning the floor.

A lot of the logistics has already been done... the link I've provided is the tip of an iceberg just to get people interested. This concept has been in the making since 1998... I think the Lab will happen digitally first and then later in reality.

:cool:

Andro
04-02-2010, 10:02 PM
...artists and scientists working together in an environment that if free of all the obligations/pressures of reality.

I share this dream and I am actually pretty close to living it - I'm living in a very small like-minded community, where Alchemy and Fringe Science are being researched with practical implementation as a goal. But we're still not off the grid, unfortunately... Maybe one day our mutual dreams will come true & together :)

Where - geographically - is The Lab to be located?

A vague answer will also do :cool:

Awani
04-02-2010, 10:29 PM
Well the dream is one Lab per country. ;)

It doesn't matter where really, land is very cheap in Peru... I guess it depends on where most of the first Lab people are living at the moment. But I imagine the best places to start is probably in Canada or Europe... for some reason I don't think the USA is a suitable place for it due to the fact that it is hard to get Green Card for all non-US people.

:cool:

Andro
04-02-2010, 10:42 PM
Well the dream is one Lab per country.

Well, we already have our own start-up here :)

Hopefully, proper networking will emerge between the terminals :cool:

I think a de-centralized Lab would be much more powerful and adequate to the Sign of the Times...

Awani
04-02-2010, 10:44 PM
Agreed.

I will move this into Networking... why limit ourselves?

:cool:

solomon levi
04-03-2010, 09:27 PM
Sounds really great! I love the idea of a community of free (thinking) individuals.
Have mind and muscle, but no money. :(

Awani
04-04-2010, 12:01 AM
No one needs money. Everyone pays rent anyway as it is now (I guess)... if a person has 100 dollars, a group of ten has 1000 dollars...

Strong as group, strong as individual... if you get me. Also one can do scams. Like taking turns working at some crap place... for example:

5 people work six months, 5 other people work only on the Art or the Science supported by the first group, then we swicth. The non-working can collect benefits also. Everything goes into the same pot to finance food, rent and equipment etc.

All this is things in the start-up face. The aim is not to need to buy food, own the building and live of whatever is produced of course - with an aim that will serve mankind and nature.

:cool:

Salazius
04-04-2010, 08:09 AM
Make a group specialized in archemy, and the question of money is no longuer...

Awani
04-04-2010, 12:47 PM
Well I really don't think money is a question.

We all know the lack of real science, science that is not dependent on war and pharma-drugs.

But I also think that art is weak. No progress is being done with film, fiction, music... most of it is repetition.

Originality, going further than any artist has gone before. That is what I want to see. That is why we are here. To expand the mind. To expand the mind of others, and eventually EVOLVE further. A thing, an entity, like the LAB will be for mankind, by mankind. Am I thinking too big?

No compromise is my motto, science and art needs to be destroyed and rebuilt.

90% of all science and art is not worthy to float in my toilet IMO.

:cool:

Dendritic Xylem
04-04-2010, 06:42 PM
Well with all of the radiant energy collectors and permanent magnet motor designs floating around, and even advances in "earth" batteries, I bet you can freely produce more electricity than ever needed. Convert old gasoline engines into hydrogen for transportation, and construct greenhouses for year-round organic produce void of the overly hybridized and genetically manipulated trash being peddled around the world.

Waste could easily be routed to a composter to be converted into nutrients for horticulture. Wells are fairly easy unless your on solid bedrock.

This is definitely the kind of life I would strive for. :)


Just out of curiosity, what is your position on the possession of firearms?
I believe many people attracted to this type of community would oppose it.

Seth-Ra
04-04-2010, 06:49 PM
Just out of curiosity, what is your position on the possession of firearms?
I believe many people attracted to this type of community would oppose it.

I personally am not fond of guns, but i do love traditional martial art weapons. (swords, knives, staffs, shuriken, pole arms etc...)
It is also of my opinion that martial arts build spirit/secret fire within, and thus are important, as well as certain transmutations to the body making it stronger, faster, healthier etc...

I guess im thinking alchemical warrior monks. :D
"Behold as i slice the apple of all 5 of my assistants heads, while throwing this pole arm through 5 flaming hoops in the opposite direction! Now behold as i turn lead into gold! :cool: "


~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
04-04-2010, 08:50 PM
What better lab could you want than this that already exists...it is international,
diverse, free, and carries no baggage.

Cyber-utopia :)

IMHO

Ghislain

LeoRetilus
04-04-2010, 09:07 PM
Yes, but I wouldn't mind having the time to continue with my work and experiments un-detered, without having to waste time worring about whether or not I paid this bill and that one, and going grocery shopping, or shopping at all, which I detest...letting someone better equipped to do those things for the community while I did what I was better equipped for, each of us doing what we had the natural talents and abilities to do while others took care of what activities they were natural more pre-disposed to. When I was younger and single and without responsibilities I would have been all in.

Andro
04-04-2010, 09:08 PM
Cyber-utopia :)

The we would ultimately have to become Cybermen ourselves :eek:

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Cyberman-standup.jpg

Ghislain
04-05-2010, 08:17 AM
Yes, but I wouldn't mind having the time to continue with my work and experiments un-detered, without having to waste time worring about whether or not I paid this bill and that one, and going grocery shopping, or shopping at all, which I detest...letting someone better equipped to do those things for the community while I did what I was better equipped for, each of us doing what we had the natural talents and abilities to do while others took care of what activities they were natural more pre-disposed to. When I was younger and single and without responsibilities I would have been all in.

When you find these people who want to take on all those responsibilities you
detest Leo, let me know I could do with some of them here ;)

Ghislain

Ghislain
04-05-2010, 08:24 AM
The we would ultimately have to become Cybermen ourselves :eek:



I don't think just because we comunicate over cyberspace Andro' that we would
have to become mindless automatons...one does not lead to the other. We can
still enjoy our friends, smell the roses etc... and carry on our studies unhindered.

The difference lies in the freedom of expression and the ability to turn everyone
else off ;) if it is so desired.

Ghislain

Awani
04-05-2010, 09:30 AM
Just out of curiosity, what is your position on the possession of firearms?

Well I think this has to depend on where it is located. If in the US I don't see a problem, but if in Europe there will be a problem. But really guns would only be used to kill off IRS and other government agencies that come by;)


Yes, but I wouldn't mind having the time to continue with my work and experiments un-detered, without having to waste time worring about whether or not I paid this bill and that one, and going grocery shopping, or shopping at all, which I detest...

Exactly... and no problem finding people like this. We just take turns. Imagine that you only need to do these chores for a day every month. That ain't so bad... or Plan B pay people to do it for us.

Ghislain: yes I agree that digital form is great, but not good enough... this LAB project has really got nothing to do with alchemy. Although I am sure there will be plenty of alchemical work being done, but not only that. No limits.

:cool:

Ghislain
04-05-2010, 10:32 AM
guns would only be used to kill off IRS and other government agencies that come by

Ahhh! another Waco...Branch Davidians...Branch Deviadians? :eek:

The above is meant in humour and no disrespect to the tragedy
that happened there.:(

Ghislain

Dendritic Xylem
04-05-2010, 11:11 AM
Ahhh! another Waco...Branch Davidians...Branch Deviadians? :eek:

The above is meant in humour and no disrespect to the tragedy
that happened there.:(

Ghislain



That's one reason I'm paranoid about defense. This logic could be very flawed though, (the waco event might have been avoided if there were no weapons on the complex)



Seth-Ra........I was watching some Shaolin training vids on youtube the other day. I only have a few years Tai kwon do experience. You can be resident martial arts trainer....I'll carry buckets of water up and down stairs for you. :cool:

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/miramax_films/kill_bill__vol__2/_group_photos/gordon_liu4.jpg

Awani
04-05-2010, 02:45 PM
Seriously I don't think we should have weapons.

The most powerful weapon will be our pens and our own digital outputs, tv channel, radio... uncorrupted art in all its forms. Film festival. Science debates. Whatever you can imagine. No limits. No middle-men. Any profits goes back to the Lab and to the creator of whatever is profited from. No leader. Beyond democracy.

I imagine OPEN HOUSE, when it is up and running with lots of activity etc, why not get school kids in. It is not about any fundamental dogmas that we want to spread or brainwash others with. It is all about gnosis, pursuit of science and art of high standards that does not corrupt the soul, does not rape the planet etc.

It has to be located in a partly free nation, I can imagine censorship of all forms otherwise.

:)

Awani
04-05-2010, 02:50 PM
You can be resident martial arts trainer....I'll carry buckets of water up and down stairs for you.

Things like this is not a bad idea. As we teach ourselves, we teach others and they in turn teach us. No statues. No gurus.

:cool:

Seth-Ra
04-05-2010, 05:20 PM
Seth-Ra........I was watching some Shaolin training vids on youtube the other day. I only have a few years Tai kwon do experience. You can be resident martial arts trainer....I'll carry buckets of water up and down stairs for you. :cool:


Deal! :cool:

I wouldnt say weapons were bad, they have their place. Ive found more uses for a sword then slicing up enemies. ;) (ofcourse when you wear a katana all day everyday for years, it kinda does act like an extension of your arm. lol )

But perhaps there could be a "tempering" of the weapons, like personalized knives for harvesting herbs and such (im thinkin druidic), staffs as symbols but practical in a moments notice (especially as we get older, might not need one during the first 700 years, but by 850, ya start getting on up there. ;)) and ofcourse scythes for cutting the grass, really old-school it with style. :D But ofcourse ima pull a Hohenheim (Paracelsus) and say

"You can take my sword from my cold dead hands!.. but probably not since it'll be imbued with the Stone. :cool: "

Warning, the above quote is not a real quote and was intended for humor purposes only, though we cant be sure that Hohenheim never said it, we also cant be sure that he did. :D


:)


~Seth-Ra

Dendritic Xylem
04-05-2010, 07:24 PM
Now Japanese swordsmithing is something I could really get into :eek::D




In terms of education in such a place, I recommend a look at this experimental arts college which was formed near my current home.

http://www.theartstory.org/school-black-mountain-college.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mountain_College


William Carlos Williams and Albert Einstein were part time staffers at one point...

It didn't last very long,
but one can learn from the mistakes of others. ;)

Awani
05-16-2011, 08:09 AM
But perhaps there could be a "tempering" of the weapons, like personalized knives for harvesting herbs and such (im thinkin druidic), staffs as symbols but practical in a moments notice (especially as we get older, might not need one during the first 700 years, but by 850, ya start getting on up there. ;)) and ofcourse scythes for cutting the grass, really old-school it with style.

Oh yes, sure. Well really as long as we aim to improve ourselves, our race (with science and art), then anything goes. I am sure mistakes will be made, but those are the moments we hopefully learn from the most.


It didn't last very long,
but one can learn from the mistakes of others. ;)

Exactly.

Don't ask we what projects or in what way things should be done, it is free!

As long as we agree from the start on some core points like for instance nature is sacred, respect for each other and so on then the rest solves itself. There really shouldn't be any laws, that is why I was wrong to write earlier on about meat eating not being allowed. All is allowed, I don't want to force my view on other artists and scientist. It is supposed to be a place of individuals. Whatever they believe. And what they share is the love of art and science, and to be creative. Although we can have great heated debates, and perhaps with science find out if it is indeed better to eat meat or not (for example).

The true point of the LAB is for a person to get "society" of his/her back so s/he can concentrate on the Work. This can only be done if we work together, not for a collective goal, but for each others individuality.

Egoism = altruism!

:cool:

Awani
05-16-2011, 08:22 AM
Just got me thinking: perhaps a new form of governance could be discovered, some form of individual democracy?

:cool:

Andro
08-23-2011, 12:32 AM
Ask yourself:
Am I an Artist - or Scientist - that strives for originality without a place in society? Am I sick of corruption, greed, vanity and the endless and meaningless struggles of so-called normal life? Need to meet and live and work together with others like us? If all answers to these questions are YES then for the sake of your soul read on… here (http://www.deviadah.com/lab.html)

Well in short the concept of the Factory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Factory) or the Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy) has died away, or never been done properly. There needs to be artists and scientists working together in an environment that if free of all the obligations/pressures of reality.

What is needed?

- Artists
- Scientists
- Building
- And the will to want to live there in a sort of community where it is also possible to be a hermit

In the beginning there will be costs, but the aim is to be self-sustained and that works of art and inventions generate money to the Lab so its residents don't need to worry about paying rent, buying food or cleaning the floor.

A lot of the logistics has already been done... the link I've provided is the tip of an iceberg just to get people interested. This concept has been in the making since 1998... I think the Lab will happen digitally first and then later in reality.


Well the dream is one Lab per country.

Strong as group, strong as individual...

All this is things in the start-up phase. The aim is not to need to buy food, own the building and live of whatever is produced of course - with an aim that will serve mankind and nature.

We all know the lack of real science, science that is not dependent on war and pharma-drugs.

But I also think that art is weak. No progress is being done with film, fiction, music... most of it is repetition.

Originality, going further than any artist has gone before. That is what I want to see. That is why we are here. To expand the mind. To expand the mind of others, and eventually EVOLVE further. A thing, an entity, like the LAB will be for mankind, by mankind. Am I thinking too big?

No compromise is my motto, science and art needs to be destroyed and rebuilt.

digital form is great, but not good enough... this LAB project has really got nothing to do with alchemy. Although I am sure there will be plenty of alchemical work being done, but not only that. No limits.


as long as we aim to improve ourselves, our race (with science and art), then anything goes.

As long as we agree from the start on some core points like for instance nature is sacred, respect for each other and so on then the rest solves itself. There really shouldn't be any laws, that is why I was wrong to write earlier on about meat eating not being allowed. All is allowed, I don't want to force my view on other artists and scientist. It is supposed to be a place of individuals. Whatever they believe. And what they share is the love of art and science, and to be creative.

The true point of the LAB is for a person to get "society" of his/her back so s/he can concentrate on the Work. This can only be done if we work together, not for a collective goal, but for each others individuality.

Egoism = altruism!

Hi everyone,

I am really curious and actually interested if any of you reading these forums share this kind of dream/vision (more or less as Dev described it in the above quotes).

I have been leading a similar lifestyle for a few years now, living (renting) together with a few friends - while pursuing our arts, crafts and research, together and individually as well.

But we still have to pay rent and utilities, we are still dependent on the system and on 'normal' society, still have to do 'work' to pay for stuff that we really don't feel the need to pay for anymore (not with our time and not with our 'money' and energy)

So I really resonate with this LAB vision/dream.

This is the sort of life that I wish to live.

I'm sure there are others who share similar dreams (and I am not talking about a hippie commune lifestyle, but one of pushing the limits of creativity and self-expression in as many ways as possible, according to everyone's natural inclinations.

If there are others who share a similar vision - please let your voices be heard here!

We may be scattered all over the globe, but this doesn't mean we can't do some networking and sharing/exchanging ideas and resources, no matter where we are located, to actually make this concept a reality (not just talk!).

So, again, if you resonate with these concepts and/or know others who may - please make your voices be heard here...

And even if you feel this lifestyle is not for you, you can still help - with knowledge, connections in any area that is relevant (such as alternative or even free energy, potential locations you are aware of that may suit the concept, possible connections with ideological benefactors... you get the picture.

No times are better than these... while they are a'changing :)

Karl
08-23-2011, 02:45 PM
If there are others who share a similar vision - please let your voices be heard here!


Present! Though I go through phases of pessimistic despair- I fear running the society experiment might well yield the same results (who holds the conch? who is going to be piggy?). I also go through optimistic delirium- reading T.A.Z. by Hakim Bey can be quite inspiring. Pirate Utopia! In any case the idea of the dropout community is certainly up in the collective consciousness.

I heard recently of such a community who came together regularly to do group depth therapy. I think such a locus is advisable to avoid many of the pitfalls of human nature. Trying to be in an intimate relationship with one person is difficult- trying to be in one with an entire community is a huge challenge.

Andro
08-23-2011, 03:06 PM
Present!

'Present' as in saying that you would actually take action in this direction and live this out in 'real' life?

Or just present as in 'I like the concept, but I'm not sure it is for me'...


Trying to be in an intimate relationship with one person is difficult- trying to be in one with an entire community is a huge challenge.

The group does not have to be big, and there should always be the possibility of solitude.


who holds the conch? who is going to be piggy?

As for the conch/piggy analogy - you just make sure that you do it with people you know and trust.

This is not a random event or 'academical' social 'Lord Of The Flies' type of experiment.

It is for people who are already mature and sovereign individuals in their own right, ready to leave the 'normal' ways of society behind, and live, work and share in ways that have most likely not been tried before.

That's the way I see it, anyway... And this is more or less the way I have been living for the past few years.

There have been 'crisis' situations, sure, but we always managed to treasure this very special thing we have and move past the challenges (which were the lessons we needed to learn).

Karl
08-23-2011, 04:59 PM
'Present' as in saying that you would actually take action in this direction and live this out in 'real' life?

Or just present as in 'I like the concept, but I'm not sure it is for me'...


Androgynus, my two feet are firmly planted in ambivalence currently. I've been dipping my toes in community living since my teenage years- coming together for sometimes five years at a time with a group of like minded people and my life is richer for those experiences. Maturity is a slippery concept. I've seen aged monastics who have been committed most of their lives to learning how to be reasonable, awake beings go into complete meltdowns about really minor issues. Neurosis is a powerful force in the human condition. I doubt anyone escapes it.

For me, what begins to tip the scale in the commitment to work with others in a community is the desire to have children. I think a child is much better off with a village of influences than just a nuclear family. Of course any off the grid situation is much easier with a group of people to overcome obstacles. I've been setting the stage most of my adult life for this experience to manifest- I feel like it is just a matter of time before the vision will coalesce into praxis. I'm holding on to my ambivalence though- I feel like it is grounding.

I believe this is relevant, though potentially somewhat tangential- I'm not sure if everyone has heard of Jack Layton, the Canadian NDP head of the opposition who just died of cancer. There is an air of loss in Canada currently- he was an amazing man and societal visionary. Believing he didn't have much time left he wrote an inspiring letter addressing the Canadian people: http://www.ctv.ca/generic/WebSpecials/pdf/20110820_Letter-Cdns-Jack-Layton-EN.pdf

This photo of him I find both beautiful and hilarious:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h19/karlcrosby/K344O.png

"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us
be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And weíll change the world." -Jack Layton

MarkostheGnostic
08-24-2011, 01:05 AM
Well in short the concept of the Factory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Factory) or the Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy) has died away, or never been done properly. There needs to be artists and scientists working together in an environment that if free of all the obligations/pressures of reality.

What is needed?

- Artists
- Scientists
- Building
- And the will to want to live there in a sort of community where it is also possible to be a hermit

In the beginning there will be costs, but the aim is to be self-sustained and that works of art and inventions generate money to the Lab so its residents don't need to worry about paying rent, buying food or cleaning the floor.

A lot of the logistics has already been done... the link I've provided is the tip of an iceberg just to get people interested. This concept has been in the making since 1998... I think the Lab will happen digitally first and then later in reality.

:cool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_bead_game Castalia in the re-marking?

Andro
08-24-2011, 01:13 PM
While 'opinionating' and philosophizing around this concept is part of the equation (I suppose) - What I am really looking for is a few INDIVIDUALS (no matter WHERE on the globe) who are genuinely intent on making this vision a manifest reality, NOT JUST TALK ABOUT IT. We would like to form a network of such individuals who are ACTIVELY moving (or wish to move) towards living some variation of the 'Lab' concept, so we can exchange information, contacts, ideas - whatever is needed to help make this happen physically.

There may not be many of you out there, but if you're there - please come forward :)

I already have my thing going in my area of the world (me and a few friends), looking to move closer towards independence from grid & society in general, while researching our areas of interest and practicing our arts and crafts. As I said before, I've been leading this kind of 'lifestyle' for a few years now, and it is certainly do-able.

I am NOT looking for you to join our group (:)) ! ! !

I am looking for people who share this vision (and maybe even already live it - or at least have their own like-minded groups), for the sake of networking and information exchange.

If you are among those - I would love to hear from you :)

Thanks...

Karl
08-24-2011, 02:11 PM
We would like to form a network of such individuals who are ACTIVELY moving (or wish to move) towards living some variation of the 'Lab' concept, so we can exchange information, contacts, ideas - whatever is needed to help make this happen physically.

There may not be many of you out there, but if you're there - please come forward :)

I already have my thing going in my area of the world (me and a few friends), looking to move closer towards independence from grid & society in general, while researching our areas of interest and practicing our arts and crafts. As I said before, I've been leading this kind of 'lifestyle' for a few years now, and it is certainly do-able.

I am looking for people who share this vision (and maybe even already live it - or at least have their own like-minded groups), for the sake of networking and information exchange.

If you are among those - I would love to hear from you :)

Thanks...

My alternative living skills resume is as follows:
carpenter (built stick frame, timber frame, cob/adobe and laid in-floor radiant heating systems), custom metal fabricator and blacksmith, degree in electrical construction, some plumbing experience, drafting (AutoCAD, Inventor and Solidworks), construction project management, sculptor (wide range of classical and contemporary materials including but not limited to stone, plastics, mold making and ceramics), have taken courses and studied independently wilderness living (hide tanning, soap making, bow hunting, bow making, fletching, fishing, flint knapping, plant identification, survival shelter fabrication, rope making, spinning wool and backstrap loom weaving, snaring and biodynamic/permaculture farming), did private lessons in combat jujitsu for two years (a mixed martial art that includes gun handling, stick fighting, knife fighting as well as ground and standing unarmed techniques), and I have a keen interest in creating medicines from plant and mineral sources :)

As far as praxis goes, I'm heading to a retreat center for the next two weeks to practice Burmese Vipassana. In October, a friend and I are heading into northern Ontario for a week of wilderness survival (no tents, no food, no water- just minimal equipment that one can carry in a vest) which will culminate in going to the Headwaters Gathering, an annual festival of earth skills where like minded people come together to share information: http://harvestgatheringcanada.wordpress.com/about/

I've enjoyed your posts in the past Androgynus and I would be happy to share information and enthusiasm with you.

With Gratitude,
K.

Andro
08-24-2011, 02:44 PM
Karl,

A LAB-type group SHOULD be so lucky to have you as one of them :)

My entire group barely sums up to only a fraction of your impressive skill-set :o

Our own (collective) skills include building, carpentry, metal/blacksmith skills, Architecture and product design (including the programs you mentioned), water and electricity systems (including alternative water and power research), gardening/landscaping and permaculture (with a few extra tricks), various types of bodywork training, some past military combat training (don't ask :)) and first and foremost - High Alchemy and also natural remedies (a limited variety though, but an effective one). Among other even less conventional skills are shamanic training and experience (including shamanic healing), Astrology, Out of Body travel and certain psychic abilities (including one of us who has a very special psychic connection with plants and animals).

We are not really focused on physical survival or 'propagation of the species'.

Physical survival by itself is not our goal, but rather make the best of whatever time we have here...

When it's time to go - it's time to go :)

PS: Your impressive skills kind of remind me of John Locke from the 'Lost' TV series :)
_________________________________

In spite of being 'grounded in ambivalence' at this time - do you see yourself living a lifestyle somehow resembling the LAB vision (http://www.deviadah.com/lab.html) in the possible near future?

Karl
08-24-2011, 03:10 PM
Aw shucks Androgynus, thanks. I really want to keep this thread going when I come back from retreat- I'm heading out the door now and internet is a no no with this kind of meditation- this topic is timely and important and we could all benefit from sharing info.

Ha! John Locke- I'm looking down at my combat pants and remembering the unique intensity with which I was examining throwing knives in the surplus store on Sunday. I'm hoping not to be possessed by an ancient demonic force anytime soon. :D

Awani
08-24-2011, 04:05 PM
Hey Karl, I too agree...your skills are very interesting. Some of them I myself would be interested to learn. Looking forward to talking more about it when you return. Enjoy your trip!

:cool:

Ghislain
08-24-2011, 05:43 PM
I was almost sold on Karl there but can he cook and clean? \o/

:) just kidding...both Karl's and Androgynus' resumes leave me feeling quite inadequate :(

It makes me realise I should set about aquiring a few survival skills.

Ghislain

Andro
08-24-2011, 08:25 PM
I was almost sold on Karl there but can he cook and clean?
Dear Mr. Ghislain, that would be exactly where YOU fit in :p


both Karl's and Androgynus' resumes leave me feeling quite inadequate :(

It's not MY skills only, but the collective skills of my entire group of friends here barely match Karl's talents :o... I mean, the guy is a walking talking LAB in his own right :)


It makes me realize I should set about acquiring a few survival skills.

If you were part of such an independent, off the grid self-sustained group, you wouldn't have to worry too much about survival (save for possible extinction level events :cool:)

I would focus more on creativity (art, research, etc...) and general skills for being independent of society and its energy grid...

Nibiru
08-25-2011, 07:30 AM
Sounds like a good idea, where would this be??

Andro
08-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Sounds like a good idea, where would this be??

You can start by envisioning YOUR ideal environment/area for a LAB initiative, and you will get closer to where it would be.

There need not be only ONE Lab initiative in the world, but rather (and preferably) as many as possible, all over the globe...

Andro
08-27-2011, 07:20 PM
Sounds like a good idea

Nibiru,

Do you see it as a realistic possibility for yourself to be among the founders of such a LAB-type community project?

Do you know other like minded people/friends in your country/area who might be enthusiastic about this as well?

Donna Matrix
08-28-2011, 01:44 AM
I don't know if anyone on this thread has talked about a place in India called Auroville, founded by Sri Aurobindo and the Mother. It s recognized bythe UN. There is no government and everyone there is on a spiritual path. This place has been around for a very long time and is a very successful intentional community.

Awani
08-28-2011, 12:19 PM
Sounds good, but I personally don't like India. My experience of India is negative only... also it has got way to many lost white hippies lost in their own peace and love delirium. I can only speak from experience.

Hippies or new agers often lack the practical, whereas the capitalist/producer lack the spiritual side of things. I like to think the best way forward is to combine both aspects to the confusion of both groups (or so I have experienced it).

:cool:

Ghislain
08-28-2011, 12:47 PM
Only had one visit of India..couple of days in Delhi and a day in Agra other than those I was hiking in the Himalayas.

http://slimshetty.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/01-himalayas.jpg?w=450

All the way to the source of the Ganges in Gangotri. Well about 20km from there to Gaumukh, as the glacier is receding due to global warming.

http://www.destination360.com/asia/china/images/s/china-himalayas.jpg

How can you be negative about that Dev?

Ghislain

Edit: Video of Auroville


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxstZFC8Vms&feature=player_embedded#!

Not too far away from what they are trying to do at the Temple Dev.

Awani
08-28-2011, 12:52 PM
Nature is cool, it always is. But in India life is cheap... and I was talking about people (see my edited post before yours).

I've been in the slum, in the heroin infected streets, in the cheating shops and markets, the police brutality, the caste system, the dreamless hippie communities... all drunk on hasch/alcohol and Shiva... all over Asia each city has an India town (like China town) and this town is always the dirtiest and nastiest. I don't know why this is. Again all is based from experience, only. There are other areas of the world I would rather go to again: like Peru, Brunei, Borneo... etc etc.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/IMG_1882.jpg

:cool:

Awani
08-28-2011, 01:01 PM
Well all cultures doesn't fit everyone, I don't like the food, the music, the language, the smell, the architecture, the philosophy... nothing.

My tastes is more towards the food, music, language, smell, architecture and philosophy of Peru and Persia. It is just what I prefer. Some like the Beatles, some the Rolling Stones.

I ain't got nothing against Auroville... I just don't want to go there myself:)

:cool:

Ghislain
08-28-2011, 01:11 PM
That picture could have been taken in Pataya in Thailand

I guess thats just the way they are in the Asian townships.

Could you call it 'happy-go-lucky'? :)

Ghislain

P.S. I have to agree about the food...I nearly starved

Namaste /o\

Donna Matrix
08-31-2011, 06:11 PM
I have been to mexico only. Love the place, the food and the people, hate the power structure. Anywhere you go you will have to deak\l with the people, the culture,the geography. Even alchemists will, especially alchemists. If they benefit their locality, the people will have warm regards, otherwise there will always be reprisals because it is human nature to fear what you do not understand.

BTW, I am a new age business person, with my head in the clouds and my feet on the ground. I am unmarried to any philosophy or religion or science. I am a humble lover of God. Maybe the trick is to see God in that gook of wires and architectural shambles. Your gonna have it just about anywhere you step out of the safety and comfort of first world surroundings.

Salazius
09-01-2011, 08:00 AM
Paris is great. Not cheap, but great. Count 2 600 000 euros for 175 m≤ in the center of Paris. But the flat is cool :)

Green Lion
09-01-2011, 11:31 AM
I don't like Paris. Pollution, not enough nature... Good for tourists, not to stay in.

Andro
09-01-2011, 12:00 PM
I don't like Paris. Pollution, not enough nature... Good for tourists, not to stay in.

I agree... Me and my small group of friends are searching for a cheap property in the countryside (house/houses and a piece of land), with lots of nature around, to set up our own version of the LAB vision.

Until now we have been renting, but it's time to move beyond the limitations that rental imposes on what you can and can't do on the property...

(Government limitations are a different ballgame, though...)

I myself got sick and tired of city life three years ago, and I've been renting countryside/village homes with my group of friends ever since.

Andro
09-27-2011, 12:28 PM
So far, I see there are no takers (here) for making the LAB concept a tangible reality.

If I'm wrong about this and some of you are actually into making this happen (no matter where you are on the globe), you can post here or alternatively send a PM to dev or to me.

Thanks.

crestind
03-27-2012, 07:45 PM
It doesn't matter where really, land is very cheap in Peru... I guess it depends on where most of the first Lab people are living at the moment. But I imagine the best places to start is probably in Canada or Europe... for some reason I don't think the USA is a suitable place for it due to the fact that it is hard to get Green Card for all non-US people.
I agree. The United States seems very hostile to organizations like these. Europe or Canada seems good, although Alaska might be decent since it is so sparsely populated. I'm a touch hesitant about South American countries since there's not much in the way of highly developed economies there, whereas in Europe and Canada, there is easy access to good markets for selling products. I'm also concerned about theft and violence in South America.

You mention taking turns working to make money, but I feel that that will only be necessary initially to get it up and running. Surely if this is a community of such innovative people, at least a few products will be developed that bring in sufficient money. Take a look at http://www.squid-labs.com/. It operates sort of along these lines as an incubator.

Androgynus, where is the approximate location of your community, if you mind sharing via PM?


Sounds good, but I personally don't like India. My experience of India is negative only... also it has got way to many lost white hippies lost in their own peace and love delirium.
I agree. Hippies have too much idealism, not enough realism. Ideals can only be achieved when based on reality. I've read that in the U.S. back in the day, hippies were frequently robbed because of their "nonviolence" stance, making them easy prey. Yes, ideally everyone should be peace and love, but the reality is that there are dangers out there. Thus the solution is to live peacefully, but also have the means for self defense! Another example of this is the Occupy Wall Street movement. Another case of ignoring reality. The protesters believe that their voices can make a difference. This is the ideal. However, they've been protesting months, and what's come of it. Absolutely nothing! Protesting does not work. This is the reality. If they knew the reality, they would not be protesting. They would be changing their own lifestyles.


So far, I see there are no takers (here) for making the LAB concept a tangible reality.

If I'm wrong about this and some of you are actually into making this happen (no matter where you are on the globe), you can post here or alternatively send a PM to dev or to me.

Thanks.
Of course there are takers! But first I need to build up a supply of capital and knowledge to make it a reality. Otherwise I'll be running in circles.

Andro
03-31-2012, 06:45 AM
build up a supply of capital and knowledge to make it a reality.

This is also what we are currently working on. It takes time.
__________________________________________________ ______

I also agree with pretty much everything you wrote in the above post.

Could you please elaborate a bit more about yourself?
Your skills/experience/main areas of interest?
Your particular interest in Alchemy?
Your own 'LAB' vision?
------------------------------------------------
Posting an introduction would be nice :)

crestind
03-31-2012, 04:57 PM
I'm just another person trolling the web. Student.
My main skills... unfortunately not so strong in the practical, DIY side, but I'm working on that. My strongest areas tend to be in web design and SEO. Not particularly useful, no.
My interest in alchemy is purely to understand the principles behind its function. The alleged ability to see spirits after consuming the stone and elevating the mind, something which allegedly occurs during the creation process. Making gold without the stone is also a nice plus.
My own LAB vision? I think dev's got the main parts covered. But I imagine an abundance of food and resources. A self contained microsociety within society. An enclave.

Andro
03-31-2012, 05:14 PM
Thanks for the reply!

Do you see yourself actually LIVING in a LAB-type community in the near future?

Or is it something you are considering for some point in the 'future'? (after finishing your studies, etc...)

crestind
03-31-2012, 06:04 PM
Thanks for the reply!

Do you see yourself actually LIVING in a LAB-type community in the near future?

Or is it something you are considering for some point in the 'future'? (after finishing your studies, etc...)
I can definitely see myself doing that, but at the same time, I've always wanted (to build) my own house somewhere. I'd probably switch between the two periodically. Another idea I've had is a self sufficient mobile house. It would generate all the food necessary for survival. True independence and mobility. Combined. Naturally, it would only be low level foods like sprouts, fruits, etc.

Nibiru
04-01-2012, 07:29 AM
I'm still waiting for my lab to find me :)

MarkostheGnostic
04-02-2012, 12:49 AM
I'm still waiting for my lab to find me :)

It happens, don't laugh!
After decades of intellectual (Sulphuric) and spiritual (Mercurial) alchemy, when I decided to enjoin my senses in physical (Salt) alchemy some 3 years ago, there came a knock on my office door in a middle school where I am a crisis/drug counselor. A boy was at the door. "Mr. L_____ wants to know if you'd like some laboratory glassware." Wha...?" This science teacher, whom I gave some counsel to over his romantic breakup, and who knew I always loved science (scientia, knowledge), gave me two boxed kits of 19/22 organic chemistry equipment that had never been used in 30 years. The shaped foam that the pieces were set in had disintegrated with age, but the ground-glass flasks, condensers, separatory funnels, and adapters were fine. I was shocked and thrilled by the synchronicity and gave him a hug. He later gave me half a dozen, now forbidden, mercury thermometers, a couple dozen glass pipettes, and offered me some unnecessary thistle tubes.

I took these items home and dug my labware from childhood (5th-12th grade) out of storage, cleaned up the tripods, ring stands, lattice, and clamps (plasticizing clamps and feet with plastic dip), then proceeded to build a table and cold water supply. Only then did I actually begin to purchase items. It was like the Ouroboric serpent, taking tail-in-mouth, childhood and late middle age connecting up through lab work, Beginning and End, Alpha and Omega. It takes gold to make gold, so, there's gonna be expenditures. But, as I approach retirement, all I can say is that this stuff doesn't come close to the price of a golf hobby! :D

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=organic+chemistry+glassware+kits&_sacat=0&_odkw=organic+chemistry+kits&_osacat=0&_from=R40

zoas23
04-02-2012, 03:23 AM
So far, I see there are no takers (here) for making the LAB concept a tangible reality.
If I'm wrong about this and some of you are actually into making this happen (no matter where you are on the globe), you can post here or alternatively send a PM to dev or to me.


I love the part that Dev called the first part... which is the "virtual" origins of the lab.
I'm not really into the Lab as a place in which I would live, which is, I assume, the most important part of the project for you.

The Fama Fraternitatis has a part I do really like:

When now these eight Brethren had disposed and ordered all things in such manner, as there was not now need of any great labour, and also that every one was sufficiently instructed, and able perfectly to discourse of secret and manifest Philosophy, they would not remain any longer together, but as in the beginning they had agreed, they separated themselves into several Countries, because that not only their Axiomata might in secret be more profoundly examined by the learned, but that they themselves, if in some Country or other they observed anything, or perceived some Error, they might inform one another of it.

Their agreement was this: First, That none of them should profess any other thing, then to cure the sick, and that gratis. 2. None of the Posterity should be constrained to wear one certain kind of habit, but therein to follow the custom of the Country. 3. That every year upon the day C. they should meet together at the house S. Spiritus, or to write the cause of his absence. (...)

And I'm not saying that this is what has to be done because an old Roscicrucian Manifesto says so... I simply think it is nice if we don't live together, if each one has his own experiences in far away places... and ONLY after that it is good to gather and share.

Again, I do love you Lab project and everything that it involves, except for the "Let's all live together"... with all the other ideas, I couldn't agree more... and I find the project very much amazing.


It happens, don't laugh!
After decades of intellectual (Sulphuric) and spiritual (Mercurial) alchemy, when I decided to enjoin my senses in physical (Salt) alchemy some 3 years ago, there came a knock on my office door in a middle school (...)

Nice story! Something very similar happened to Isha and I. We bought an expensive, but reasonable "set" of things in a local version of eBay... for setting up a lab.
When we arrived to the house of the seller, this man had a HUGE collection of glassware and asked us what we wanted to do with it, we said: "liquors". He didn't ask more questions and mostly told us to take EVERYTHING he had, that EVERYTNING was included in the "set" we bought... some things where not even useful for us (i.e, a 30 liters flask!), but he insisted that we had to take it all.... because his wife didn't want that stuff in the house because he almost burnt down the house.

In short: what he gave us is valued maybe 35 to 45 times what we paid (or more, it's quite impossible to value it). He didn't seem to care about money, he was mostly interested in seeing us taking it all as if it was ot glass that could burn his hands.

When we returned home I asked Isha: "Is something like this EVER going to happen during our lives? Is there any chance?". We agreed that what had happened was surreal and crazy and that it made absolutely no sense.
This happened some 15 days ago.

So... may your Lab find you in a surreal way!

Nibiru
04-02-2012, 07:16 PM
Excellent stories Zoas and Marcos!! Perfect examples of manifesting your dream to fill your present needs. I too recently had my lab come to me, but it was after I had already purchased my distillation set-up so I didn't really need any more equipment at the time. My roommate's family owns a local real-estate/construction company and they keep a storage of any valuable equipment that is acquired from their vacant buildings. We went to their storage looking for some furniture and found a room full with boxes of literally hundreds of different glass lab pieces. I was told I could have all of it, but refused because I felt more equipment would just complicate the art. At my current understanding, I don't even know if one needs a distillation set-up to work well. Anyway at some point I may go back and retrieve the lab equipment and try to find a way to offer some of the materials to our members at a very fair price, or maybe even donate the proceeds of the sales to the forum..

As far a waiting for my Lab to find me, it appears that my lab-ware has already succeeded in the task. It's the communal Lab that I'm still waiting on..

zoas23
04-09-2012, 08:08 PM
Excellent stories Zoas and Marcos!! Perfect examples of manifesting your dream to fill your present needs. I too recently had my lab come to me, but it was after I had already purchased my distillation set-up so I didn't really need any more equipment at the time. My roommate's family owns a local real-estate/construction company and they keep a storage of any valuable equipment that is acquired from their vacant buildings. We went to their storage looking for some furniture and found a room full with boxes of literally hundreds of different glass lab pieces. I was told I could have all of it, but refused because I felt more equipment would just complicate the art. At my current understanding, I don't even know if one needs a distillation set-up to work well. Anyway at some point I may go back and retrieve the lab equipment and try to find a way to offer some of the materials to our members at a very fair price, or maybe even donate the proceeds of the sales to the forum..

As far a waiting for my Lab to find me, it appears that my lab-ware has already succeeded in the task. It's the communal Lab that I'm still waiting on..

As absurd as it is, when we were returning home quite late last night, Isha and I found a 10 liters flask that someone had thrown to be picked up by the waste collectors. It was waiting there to be picked up, 2 meters away from the door of our house.

Life is funny.

Andro
04-10-2012, 04:37 AM
Hi Everyone,

This is a thread about living in a LAB-type community (http://www.deviadah.com/lab.html), not a thread about flasks and lab-ware.

I know the title may be confusing, but please read the first post (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1452-The-LAB&p=8390#post8390)(s) of this thread for a better understanding of the concept.

For lab/glass-ware and related, there is a sub-forum called Equipment (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/forumdisplay.php?78-Equipment), where this kind of info would be much more at home.

Andro
05-10-2012, 01:05 PM
I found someone on the net who talks about something called "The Right of Self Determination".

He basically says that the only way to be free from slavery is to declare your own sovereign "Nation State".

According to him, it is EXACTLY how ALL states were created, and they were only created in the name of those who signed the declaration.

The rest are citizens/subjects/collateral assets.

For example, the US constitution is ONLY valid for those who signed it (55 people) and their offspring/'Posterity'. The rest are collateral assets.

He also talks a lot about business, agreements, treaties, etc... I think this can be a interesting direction to research for the LAB concept.

So, if anyone has the patience to listen... Here is a whole playlist of talks:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=PL103B70C722DD04DC&v=PFzoQtGbAoo

For those with a bit of extra patience, here is some complementary reading:

Silent Weapons For Quiet Wars (http://www.coalitionoftheobvious.com/SILENT_20WEAPONS_20for_20QUIET_20WARS.pdf)

The Occult Technology Of Power (http://ia700301.us.archive.org/35/items/TheOccultTechnologyOfPowertheArcaneSecretsOfPoliti calPower/OTAP.pdf)

---------------------------------------------------

Ghislain
05-10-2012, 06:51 PM
I put in a Google search for "Who is I?" (http://www.ionpoverty.tv/who-is-i)
and came across this.


i am on a journey. to lead an honorable life in an dishonorable world.
i am a global citizen.
i am unique. so is everyone else.
i am a student, a young professional, a job-seeker. i have dreams.

i need a job. a job that matters.
i have student loans to pay off, responsibilities. i am scared.
i want to live and work in the developing world. how i do get started?
i want to live near home, but change the world. what should i do?

i have a job, but it is only for money, not meaning.
i have skills and talents to build a better world, but i need to earn a living too.
is a meaningful job out of reach for me? how can i find a better job?

i am a student. i study hard, but classrooms are not solving the worldís problems.
i am bursting with desire to do something real.
i am learning a lot in school, but i still donít feel ready for the workplace.

i struggle between tradition and the unknown.
i want to be taken seriously. how do i get the respect i deserve?

i intern. i volunteer. i help whenever i can.
i want to do more than grunt work.
i want mentors and colleagues to show me the ropes.
i want to work for a kickass social enterprise.

iím a humanitarian. i feel called to make a difference.
if i donít get involved, who will?

with all the crazy bad stuff in the world, i must do something good.
do i have to be good to do good?

i care about injustice. inside, i think we all do.
poverty is ridiculous. so pointless, so completely unnecessary, so unfair.
i want to get rid of it, but thatís not all i want out of life.
i also want to find a partner, maybe have kids. definitely make money.

i am sick of preachy people, even if they represent good causes.
i donít believe anyone who says doing good is easy. i know thatís not true.
iíd like to hear an honest, tough, sexy solution to poverty.
if i donít, i might have to invent my own.

i think tackling big social problems sounds fun. hard, but fun.
iíd like to find out for myself.

i want to make people healthier.
i want to bring clean water to everyone on earth.
i want to give every kid a good education.
i want to feed the world.
i want to be the voice of the voiceless.
i want to inspire someone, maybe even everyone.

i am all about action.
i know power is knowledge, money and politics. how do i plug in?

i can learn from you. you can learn from me.
we can work together. we can start something real.

i am inspired by others.
i think older people can teach me things. but not everything.
i am happiest when i am part of something big.
the work matters more than i do. but i matter too.

i want to live differently.
i want to meet people who care about what i care about.
i want new friends with my values. i want time to fall in love.
i want passion in my career and in my bed.
i wonít settle.

i like to laugh.
social change is serious. but letís have fun too.

i am self-confident. some days not as much as others.
i take risks. i want to take more.
failure is hard though. what comes after failure?

i like conversations, not lectures.
i like listening and i like being heard.
i have lots of good ideas and probably some crappy ones too.
iím not yet sure which are which. help me find out.

standing still drives me crazy.
we donít have time for that!

i know there are people dying. kids are going hungry.
there are places falling apart.
And i am pissed about it.

fuck poverty.
and fuck you if you say we canít do something about it.

change is what i am meant to do.
i put people first.
i stand against poverty. always.
i stand for economic justice. forever.

Sounds like a candidate for the Lab :)

Ghislain

Ezalor
09-06-2012, 11:46 PM
Aye, at least partially. The idea is nice, as also many many other similar ideas I have seen or was connected to. I even was member of a group that aimed tp build their own self-sustainable village. But what I see is that they never work, for a simple reason: If it really CAN work, then you don't have to plan, talk about it, discuss, organize, and so on... it just happens in its own. Ideas that can really work simply draw people, funds and everything else in like magnets.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say it is a bad idea. But something is missing, the energy that just makes it happen, and that is what they have to find.


In my opinion, there are two levels on which such communities can be realized: full, and partial. Full would be like the LAB, living together, share work and fruit, and so on. Partial is where each have their own personal life, they don't live together (or at least not necessarily) but work together in many fields of common interest. This latter, is an idealized form of fellowship, or colleagueship. Bringing that thought to the more subtle level, it's like a symbolic lab in which we work together, but outside the lab we have our own lives. People in such communities may even physically work together or otherwise meet on a daily basis, but the fields in which one shares with the community are unique and different for everyone, just as the times, forms and volume of participation.

Regarding myself personally, my path is much more lonely than usually. So even a realization that would work well for most of you would have a great chance of not working for me. For example, in my whole life, I only met TWO person I would be able to live together with. So I rather aim for having my own place and farm, and have interested in the second type described above where I can have the broader individual freedom and independence I need so badly, yet participate in the community as I can.

Andro
09-07-2012, 12:08 AM
This Lab vision (the way I see it) is more like the 'second type' (as you describe it).

Sharing creativity and productivity without compromising individuality and privacy. In other words, there are common grounds/areas, but everyone gets their own house and personal space.

This is Community, NOT communism :)

Ezalor
09-07-2012, 12:39 AM
The eco-village group I was in was a bit similar. Everyone would have got their own house and garden area, while there would have been a community house, community library, workshops, the pastures and farmlands would have been common, and so on. Where that idea failed for me, was the expectations: whereas, the community EXPECTED everyone to take some part in the common work. Everyone would have had to sacrifice some time to work on something, be that taking care of animals, growing plants, helping the neighbor build his house, and so on. And in theory, this is good, but in fact, not for me. because I need personal freedom very much. For me, in an ideal life, I every day wake up, and DECIDE what will I do. No plans, no expectations. If I decide, I feel like today is a good day for community, then I do that, if I feel like it is a day for myself, then I do that.

I have looked at many groups, and almost every group ended up fighting "civil wars" about these rules and expectations. That guy didn't do community work the whole week, this is so unfair! (And they don't care if the poor guys was pretty busy solving his own problems). Then drama starts, and never ends...

So what I think, you should remove expectations completely. By that, I don't mean no rules, so basic rules that apply to community activities are necessary. But it should be like "OK, if I participate in community activity, I do it by the rules out of my free will" rather than "I have to follow the rules because they expect me to do so."

Which includes also, that community participation isn't expected either - you can do community work whole week, or don't do anything for a month, and it should make no difference. because the community participation is not expected, but everyone voluntarily offers it. And from there on, the laws of nature kick in: The guy who accepted help from others, and never offers help himself though he could, well... he will most likely not get offered anything for a while. There is simply no NEED for expectations, if it works along the idea of volunteerly offering. Also in the same way, if someone offers something, they shouldn't EXPECT anything in return, but it is pretty likely the others will recognize it, and give back anyway.

Now however, this no-expectations concept has a crucial point: community resources. Because when there is for example a community-owned fruit garden, that is a result of hard work of 9 people out of ten, whereas the tenth did never work on it, should he then get 1/10 of the fruit? Not likely... unless he did something else for the community, like, he is a mechanic and he repairs everyone else's car! Then it balances out.

So all in all, my idea is a practical meritocracy. Nothing is expected, everyone has the same basic and general rights, but only by doing something you earn respect and rights for more.


Now, if such a meritocratic community would be created by people whit at least a basic level of spiritual understanding, it may actually work, because they might have something all those eco-village people didn't have: spiritual connection, and most importantly wisdom. Because they need wisdom to make meritocracy work, and they need some spiritual development to be able to view at things from a point where it doesn't boils down to "I want to have MORE than others!".

So, what you think?

Andro
09-07-2012, 01:08 AM
So, what you think?

I agree. Many 'ideologies' may look good on paper or in rhetoric, but in the end it's the actual people who make it or break it.

I've been living this for 4 years now, and ready to (gradually) take it to the next level. This also includes touching base on a deeper lever with other like-minded ones.

Seth-Ra
09-07-2012, 02:33 AM
In my current situation, I see soooooo much problems with the culture and... It's to much to type at the moment and this is not the place for it (I don't think).
A hermetic/alchemical utopia of sorts would be heaven on earth; I'd jump into that planning and creation-project in a heartbeat, where do I sign? Lol



~Seth-Ra

Awani
09-07-2012, 09:01 AM
So, what you think?

Well the manifesto I wrote years ago is just a seed. It is not a constitution, more like an advert... over the years I have come across many people who are interested in this concept. There are actually not at all many places like what I imagine (if any). I even imagine that the problems you raise like who did not do the dishes etc, who did not plant tomatoes, will not be a problem because the goal is for all participants to do whatever they love. So in this sense we need a gardener who loves to be in the garden (I don't want to do that), we need a cook (someone who loves to invent new dishes), we need etc. etc. Some of these roles could even be hired.

The 'LAB' would be like the Factory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Factory), only difference is there are not only one Warhol but many, and there are scientists as well (alchemy goes under science in my book)... and whatever is produced is both given freely to the world and also sold. I mean if we produce a film people can buy tickets to watch it. All income like this just goes back into keeping the lab running. Kind of like a business where the profit is continued existence. If for some reason there would be a lot of profit then it is easy what to do with that: create another LAB in some other country.

I am personally against communistic community as well as greedy capitalist corporation, this is a new model. One I have not, I guess, fully explained but one that will benefit the Artist and the Scientist without the slavery of society.

This does not mean we can all help out with the daily chores (and in the start up face I imagine we all have to), but there is a goal to be achieved and this is a great motivation. In the end the only rules we need is RESPECT and ANTI-LAZINESS.

I don't mean lazy not to do the dishes, I mean lazy as in not doing the artistic or scientific work. It will not be a problem, all artists and scientist would love to be able to do their work 24 hours a day if they could, if they didn't need to go to work etc.

Anyway these are some more thoughts on the matter.

:cool:

Andro
09-07-2012, 01:20 PM
Excellent points here lately :)

I personally agree with dev on everything he wrote above. As I said before, this is Community, NOT communism ! ! ! (and neither greed-based capitalism)

I myself suck at cooking/gardening/building and related, but I know people who LOVE it and would do it with great pleasure and personal satisfaction if the 'other stuff' would no longer be an issue.

I myself love psychic stuff/psychic defense, teaching shamanic ways and performing shamanic healings, I love focusing on Alchemy and Natural Philosophy, as well as writing, recording and producing music, among many other things.

Many projects I simply had to give up because of the need to deal with other stuff that I don't like doing at all.

I think we are going trough a significant transitional period. Things will no longer be the way they used to, for 'better' or for 'worse'. And it's always darkest before dawn...

People who are still into monthly paychecks and/or live in less affected areas (for now) and/or were born or married into some money - are probably less likely to sense this period of transition (at least for now :p).

There can be a lot of friction and ego battles while such a community is formed. I know because I've been there, and it's completely natural for it to happen.

Watch the LOST series for what it took for all those people to come together and realize what really matters.

Live Together, Die Alone (https://www.google.com/search?q=live+together+die+alone+meaning)
_____________________________________

Insert Hobbit Houses (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3116-Hobbit-houses-%28natural-homes%29) instead, if so inclined :):

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/UtopiaVille.jpg
✂----------------------------------------

Awani
09-07-2012, 01:48 PM
Let me add that it should not be closed to the world. It should be open. We should not lock ourselves in. We have to accept the world around and use whatever rules it has to our own advantage using intellect and stealth.

Not a cult nor a secret society, but the future. Because every man and woman is a/an (st)ar-tist!

:cool:

Awani
09-07-2012, 01:56 PM
Also LAB is a working title. A word is needed for talking about it but I kind of like it as it describes what it really is: a crucible where art and science is mixed, boiling. A brew. A Sacred, as all creation is sacred. IMO.

:cool:

Andro
09-07-2012, 01:59 PM
Let me add that it should not be closed to the world. It should be open.
We should not lock ourselves in. We have to accept the world around and use whatever rules it has to our own advantage using intellect and stealth.
Not a cult nor a secret society, but the future. Because every man and woman is a/an (st)ar-tist!

Absolutely. The last community I spent some time in had a variety of programs, attended by people from all around the world. I don't think I've seen so many happy, smiling faces in the same place at the same time...

If my own shit doesn't work out, I suppose that this is where I'll be going/joining...

Andro
09-07-2012, 02:39 PM
In my current situation, I see soooooo much problems with the culture and... It's to much to type at the moment and this is not the place for it (I don't think).

I would personally love to hear your critical angle on the current culture. You can always start a new thread. I'm sure quite a few people here may have a lot to say on the topic :)


A hermetic/alchemical utopia of sorts would be heaven on earth

Agreed. Not necessarily limited to Alchemy and Hermetic related, but that's the idea. Dev has already elaborated more about his vision.

The big question (to me) is who/how many people would actually take steps towards actually making such a transition, not just theorizing about it...


I'd jump into that planning and creation-project in a heartbeat, where do I sign?

You sign right here, above the dotted line :)

Signature: ........................................

But aren't you already bound by your contract with the military?

Ezalor
09-09-2012, 06:00 PM
A little addendum about self sustainability (posted in another thread where it is relevant to an alchemical topic):
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1832-Dew-Path&p=24437#post24437

Seth-Ra
09-12-2012, 02:12 AM
I would personally love to hear your critical angle on the current culture. You can always start a new thread. I'm sure quite a few people here may have a lot to say on the topic :)

I meant to make such a post over the weekend, but my fellow Battle-buddies needed my attention more.
I will certainly make such a post soon, perhaps this weekend. Right now things are to busy and I'm in dire need of sleep. If things go smoothly I may can make it sooner - will have to see. :)




You sign right here, above the dotted line :)

Signature: ........................................

But aren't you already bound by your contract with the military?

That will also be covered in said post. Lol
;)

As for the LAB and finding people to make it a reality - to participate... I have never believed in theory without practice. :cool:


~Seth-Ra

Leon Corlew
01-14-2014, 03:43 AM
I've been interested in communal (like I said in my intro thread, communal implies an economic model that I don't nessesarily agree with, but that is neither here nor there) living for some time. The people I know whom I have have made plans with to start something along the lines of a group homestead are all either alchemists themselves (though they were not when I met them, alchemists seem to have a perchant for finding each other before they know they are alchemists) or inclined favorably to the art. Our plans were to go through college, work for a few years and then buy land. I'm sure I could talk to them and merge our project with yours. Between the 3-4 of us we hold considerable knowlage in relation to homesteading (food, electricity, water, and shelter production) and I for one would love to help out. Is there any timetable in place currently for the realisation of this idea? Can we get a tally of where people stand on this so we can begin planning?

I do have two concerns before we proceed. Both are related to the extremely open nature of the current plan. First: It has been noted by some here that alchemists who have not yet attained the stone are very open with information, but when they complete the art become cryptic and reserved. My question is if there is, inherent in the knowledge of the full process of the creation of the stone, or somehow inbued by contact with or ingestion of the stone, a reason percieved that this is knowlage not to be shared. That is a wreck of a sentence, let me try to be more clear. Do you think it is possible that there is a revelation or realisation associated with the completion of the art that discourages the sharing of the full secret? Beyond the obvious reasons to not share such information, that is. The current plan proposes an open information policy and I wonder if this may become an issue. I, for one, would not want the entire secret revealed to me in plain language, I see this as a personal quest.

Second has more to do with international/historical power structures. Alchemical knowlage has clearly been hidden over the centuries, and I am inclined to believe it was hidden intentionally. We don't know what kind of shit will come down on our heads if we start loudly announcing alchemical secrets.

Of course, the counter-arguement to these points is simple and valid:
"For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad." or,
"It is said that in the End-Days, all that is secret and hidden would be openly revealed.
Not just the secrets we think we desperately want to uncover, not just the mysteries of Creation, Nature and Art...
But also the secrets so many of us are scared to find out - or to be found out about.
Revelation is a double-edged (s)word, you see... Revelations, like the Words of the Wise, are indeed Destroyers of Worlds."

The former is from Mark and the latter from our own Spiritus Mundi thread (could not find a source). There was a third quote I couldn't find in relation to not fearing one's enemies if one is in the possesion of the full secret, which would have been extremely applicable. If anyone knows of the quote, please post it.

I am by no means entrenched in my view of this, but I also think it should be discussed seriously. So, for now, playing devil's advocate.

Edit: First quote is attributed to Androgynus. See his subsequent post.

Andro
01-14-2014, 12:02 PM
It is said that in the End-Days, all that is secret and hidden would be openly revealed. Not just the secrets we think we desperately want to uncover, not just the mysteries of Creation, Nature and Art... But also the secrets so many of us are scared to find out - or to be found out about. Revelation is a double-edged (s)word, you see... Revelations, like the Words of the Wise, are indeed Destroyers of Worlds.

These are my own words and perspectives, not quoted from someone else. When quoting others, I cite the source (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2957-Please-Cite-Your-Sources!)(s).
What I wrote is (also) based on a sort of 'Alchemical Prophecy', which runs kind of parallel to monotheistic/messianic religions.
This prophecy talks about the 'Return of Elias Artista'. You can look it up. I think Paracelsus and other prominent figures spoke of this prophecy.
What I wrote is my own development of the concept, to get the SM thread started.


Can we get a tally of where people stand on this so we can begin planning?

I'm gradually 'building' my own thing with my Alliance of Souls. There's 3 of us so far.

You can do your own thing in the US. The LAB is a concept, it can be applied by many groups in different places in the world.
--------------------------------------------------------
About the Secrets of Alchemy, I wouldn't worry. Maybe 1 or 2 people per century succeed in the Universal Great Work, and that's a generous estimate.
Particulars, on the other hand, abound - and I see no reason for the Alchemist not to share his results/medicines with the members of the community he's in.

As for the 'Big Cheese Secret' - there are (in my view) 2 parts. One can be communicated, the other can't.
It takes Internal Revelation and a drastic paradigm shift in one's world view. I doubt this can be taught horizontally.

Also see: Secrecy & Alchemical Initiations (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1089-Secrecy-amp-Alchemical-Initiations).


I, for one, would not want the entire secret revealed to me in plain language, I see this as a personal quest.

You said it :)
_________________________________

Leon Corlew
01-14-2014, 07:56 PM
These are my own words and perspectives, not quoted from someone else. When quoting others, I cite the source (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2957-Please-Cite-Your-Sources!)(s).

Gottcha, fixed my post. Nice quote by the way.


What I wrote is (also) based on a sort of 'Alchemical Prophecy', which runs kind of parallel to monotheistic/messianic religions.
This prophecy talks about the 'Return of Elias Artista'. You can look it up. I think Paracelsus and other prominent figures spoke of this prophecy.
What I wrote is my own development of the concept, to get the SM thread started.

Interesting, I'll have to look into that.


You can do your own thing in the US. The LAB is a concept, it can be applied by many groups in different places in the world.

That would be much easier to implement than one large LAB. I like it.


About the Secrets of Alchemy, I wouldn't worry. Maybe 1 or 2 people per century succeed in the Universal Great Work, and that's a generous estimate.

Calrification: Is the Universal Great Work the same as that which is typicaly refered to as simply the Great Work? Or is it a step further?


Particulars, on the other hand, abound - and I see no reason for the Alchemist not to share his results/medicines with the members of the community he's in.

Agreed.


As for the 'Big Cheese Secret' - there are (in my view) 2 parts. One can be communicated, the other can't.
It takes Internal Revelation and a drastic paradigm shift in one's world view. I doubt this can be taught horizontally.

That's probably true. Spiritual concepts are veru hard to really transfer by language alone.


Also see: Secrecy & Alchemical Initiations (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1089-Secrecy-amp-Alchemical-Initiations).

Thanks.

Kiorionis
01-14-2014, 10:16 PM
Can we get a tally of where people stand on this so we can begin planning?

There's 1 in Montana :)
I'm currently paying off student loans through trade skills and starting an herbal medicine garden (I plan on working with a few holistic physicians in my area when everything is underway -- I don't plan on acting 'doctor'). I find the only thing holding me back in this area is a knowledge of proportions in formulas, but that'll work itself out quickly. Simple remedials for poor digestion and elimination, immune system boosters for both bacteria and fungus, and a couple other formulas for common but simple health problems.

All of this is to support my lifestyle of adventure and learning and sitting on my ass (meditating) :P
I have a five-year plan. By age 32 I'll be self-sufficient. I may not have a home, but I'll be free of debts and obligations.

Eshai
01-15-2014, 12:46 AM
My post here may be contradictory to the thread in general, but perhaps the reservations of others mirror my own.

There was a time when I thought I seriously wanted such a lifestyle. I will honestly admit that such a lifestyle frightens me. The idea is nice at first, but when I allow my thoughts to venture down the road of logistics and demands it would require, I become overwhelmed and fearful.

Such a life would require that I sacrifice much of what I have come to enjoy. The community and society that exists around me, which I am a part of, facilitates all of my passions. A change (and that change is perhaps what I am really afraid of) would potentially demand a far higher price in terms of time and energy than the price of my present lifestyle in a capitalistic society.

Right now, people leave me alone and I do as I please on my own property. The cost? 8 hours a day. I promise each and every one of you that a more independent, self sustaining lifestyle (even as part of a large group) will cost you more than 8 hours a day.

When it comes to alchemy, in my most humble opinion, capitalism is the way to go. You as an individual have the means to acquire work in a field best suited to your desires (but yes, this takes a great deal of grit and determination, and a will that never gives up), and the rest of the time is yours. You are given money with which you can simply purchase what you need from anywhere in the world and have it shipped to you, so you don't have to spend your time bartering for certain foods, supplies, and lab equipment while waiting on the one day a month the one guy who knows how to do plumbing fixes your water supply. In capitalism, you end up with more free time to explore Art and Science being a part of a dependent-based society.

Philosophically, every society and every person is dependent upon everyone else. You will never be self sustaining, for there is no such thing.

Does this desire to become self sustaining stem from a feeling of being trapped or enslaved? Or, more of a feeling to physically be around those of like mind?

For me, way back when, it came from a desire to not have any obligations. I wanted a "simple" life free from burdens such as needing a car, insurance, property taxes, income taxes, and tip-toeing on the eggs shells that is the law (which there are so many of I have no idea if I'm breaking one or not).

But when I think about living in a small, "self sustaining" community, I realize the obligations are ten fold. In capitalism and a free market society, all they require from me are that I fill out of a few forms at the right times. It's really easy. When your neighbor is staring you in the face, because it's your turn to fix the fence and you haven't done it yet because you're in the middle of an experiment...

You get the idea.

Yes, you'd have to be with people you know and trust. And you can't all be alchemists, because if that's the case, you'd have to spend a significant portion of your time specializing in another field of practical use so you could live well. Like plumbing, hvac, electrical, carpentry, masonry--not to mention design and engineering, as well as pollution control. (More and more logistics.) This accumulates into yet more time taken from alchemy so you can eat and sleep inside of a house instead of a tent.

And if you end up sharing this existence with non-alchemists...

The people who turn the wrenches and pull the weeds, in general, will not like the idea of carrying and supporting a group of people who do not appear to be doing much of anything worthwhile. While it may be true that through the endeavor of alchemy in terms of chemistry there are medicines and valuable chemicals which can be synthesized, but it must be done on the scale as to benefit everyone. Mass production for the community, in which there is no discovery, no spiritualism, and certainly no alchemy.

I believe the Alchemist is doomed to a life of solitary practice.

Though, perhaps all of this is merely a justification because I would be afraid to venture down that road, where there are a lot of "what if's." In this life of mine, here and now, there is little that is significantly unknown. Here, I am safe... for now.

Leon Corlew
01-15-2014, 06:38 AM
Right now, people leave me alone and I do as I please on my own property. The cost? 8 hours a day. I promise each and every one of you that a more independent, self sustaining lifestyle (even as part of a large group) will cost you more than 8 hours a day.

I have to disagree. At the beginning, when infrastucture and agriculture are being set up, certainly. There will probably be weeks if not months of continuous work. But you see, the point of such a life is in fact to increase free time. The picture of a farmer you have in your head may be that of a commercial farmer, one who makes a living by selling his crop. For these people life is certainly day in and day out toil. I do not propose this model of agriculture. I propose sustinance farming, in which you grow only what is nessesary to sustain yourself and no more. So, you sow crops a few times a year, harvest a few times a year, devote a few hours a day to weeding, a small amount of time to livestock, and a small amount of time to maintaining your various structures. The money nessecary for things one cannot reasonably produce by one's self will be provided by crafts/trades each resident takes up. Examples could range from glassblowing to auto repair. Expenses would likely be a few hundreds of dollars or less per person depending on the needs of your community.


You are given money with which you can simply purchase what you need from anywhere in the world and have it shipped to you, so you don't have to spend your time bartering for certain foods, supplies, and lab equipment while waiting on the one day a month the one guy who knows how to do plumbing fixes your water supply. In capitalism, you end up with more free time to explore Art and Science being a part of a dependent-based society.

I do not propose the removal of currency from one's life. Bartering within a community could be beneficial (though not necessary) but the goods attainable with money are indeed quite convenient


Philosophically, every society and every person is dependent upon everyone else. You will never be self sustaining, for there is no such thing.

Certainly, but that is no reason one could not choose to suport themselves as fully as possible.


Does this desire to become self sustaining stem from a feeling of being trapped or enslaved? Or, more of a feeling to physically be around those of like mind?

I suppose that varies from person to person. I suppose for me it stems from a desire to owe nothing to anyone but myself and my neighbors. To only owe my labor and time to myself. This does not mean, of course, that I wish to restict myself from giving my time and labor to others voluntarily, I simply wish to be free of debt in all forms.


But when I think about living in a small, "self sustaining" community, I realize the obligations are ten fold. In capitalism and a free market society, all they require from me are that I fill out of a few forms at the right times. It's really easy. When your neighbor is staring you in the face, because it's your turn to fix the fence and you haven't done it yet because you're in the middle of an experiment...

The idea is to choose like minded people who will not mind that you practice alchemy, or practice themselves. Non-neurotic people who will forgive lateness on fence-mending. Selection of your neighbors is vital to stability.


Yes, you'd have to be with people you know and trust. And you can't all be alchemists, because if that's the case, you'd have to spend a significant portion of your time specializing in another field of practical use so you could live well. Like plumbing, hvac, electrical, carpentry, masonry--not to mention design and engineering, as well as pollution control. (More and more logistics.) This accumulates into yet more time taken from alchemy so you can eat and sleep inside of a house instead of a tent.


You could all be alchemists. And don't you already spend a signifigant amount of your time specializing in something else? What was that 8 hours a day you mentioned? In addition, construction, wiring, plumbing and the like are not awfully complex disciplines in the face of alchemy. And unless you plan to build exceedingly complex structures for some reason I wouldn't say you need engineering so much as common sense. Something as simple as log cabin construction would be sufficient for almost all needs. Also, something like HVAC is an extravgant non-necessity.


The people who turn the wrenches and pull the weeds, in general, will not like the idea of carrying and supporting a group of people who do not appear to be doing much of anything worthwhile. While it may be true that through the endeavor of alchemy in terms of chemistry there are medicines and valuable chemicals which can be synthesized, but it must be done on the scale as to benefit everyone. Mass production for the community, in which there is no discovery, no spiritualism, and certainly no alchemy.


Again, the importance of choosing good neighbors.

Reading over my responses I am reminded that I tend to get heated over issues I care about. Please don't take it personally, it's just how I debate.

Andro
01-15-2014, 08:17 AM
'The LAB' is a conceptual platform, on which everyone can build their own versions if so inclined.

There is no 'recipe'. You don't have to be all alchemists. You don't have to be off the grid (if you like the grid).

You don't have to give up money and the comforts of modern civilization. The point is NOT to lower your living standards. Quite the opposite.

And you can have Internet even in the middle of the jungle :)... Right Dev?

The point of the LAB concept is to be/live/work/create with like-minded people and enjoy life to the fullest, the way YOU want to enjoy it.

As always, the main problem is never about 'system' or 'ideology', but about the people involved and their relationships.

I've lived like this for some years now. Experience will teach you what works and what doesn't, so just do what works and don't do what doesn't. It's THAT simple.

Yes, there will be moments of crisis. Yes, there will be 'infighting' and disagreements. Be wise and work it out. Or be wise and leave. At least you'll know you've tried...

I would recommend starting your own group/LAB with people you already know/are friends with (as opposed to joining a group you don't know, that already has its own thing going).

If I see any 'positive' future for humanity on Earth, it's in like-minded communities. eStates within States :)

And be prepared for the fact that people are generally tribal in nature and that some sort of 'hierarchy' is likely to develop naturally.
I see no problem with that. Quality leadership is often needed to make such endeavors work, but not the 'statist' or 'cultist' type of leadership most people are expecting or accustomed to.

If egos don't inflate/explode (too often :)), everyone will eventually find and know their role and purpose, and a working model with the optimal balance will most likely develop by itself over time.

Eshai
01-15-2014, 12:32 PM
:)

Androgynus, yes I see what you have established in regards to the LAB as being a conceptual model, which I am very much in favor of. What I am debating is the idea of a commune-like setup where people devote all their time and energy to their immediate community, as Leon Corlew concisely described:


to owe nothing to anyone but myself and my neighbors.

In other words, I'm not knockin' the conceptual model in the slightest.

Leon Corlew, thank you for your detailed reply. Please know that you are welcomed to be forthcoming with me at all times. This goes for anyone else here. I come from forums where the objective was to run people off. So I extend the same plea to you: please do not take what I say too personally.


So, you sow crops a few times a year, harvest a few times a year, devote a few hours a day to weeding, a small amount of time to livestock, and a small amount of time to maintaining your various structures. The money nessecary for things one cannot reasonably produce by one's self will be provided by crafts/trades each resident takes up. Examples could range from glassblowing to auto repair. Expenses would likely be a few hundreds of dollars or less per person depending on the needs of your community.
With my deepest respect, for I do not know your background or experience, I believe you grossly underestimate the amount of time these tasks require, even on a sustainable level.

Unfortunately, I admit I have not done any research on this. My perspective comes from growing up on a mere 30 acres. It was by no means a farm, but the livestock and food we grew took a great deal of time. And the small amount of what we had was by no means enough to sustain us, and we still made regular trips to the grocery store.


What was that 8 hours a day you mentioned? In addition, construction, wiring, plumbing and the like are not awfully complex disciplines in the face of alchemy. And unless you plan to build exceedingly complex structures for some reason I wouldn't say you need engineering so much as common sense. Something as simple as log cabin construction would be sufficient for almost all needs. Also, something like HVAC is an extravgant non-necessity.
I beg your pardon for my following words, but allow me to ask a simple plumbing question as a demonstration. Being that such a trade is not awfully complex, you should know the answer quite readily: What is the most efficient size and angle of a slope for a drainage pipe designed for human waste so as to prevent blockages while maintaining even flow, and what other type of pipe is required at the opposite slope?

If you jump over to Google, or some other search engine, you will have an idea of the complexity involved in the plumbing and mechanical trades. You mentioned auto mechanics. Do you really have any idea the complexity and knowledge (not to mention time) required to rebuild a car engine?

What do I do for my 8 hours a day? I work in a chemistry lab. Before that I worked as a mechanical contractor bringing buildings out of the ground and renovating laboratories. (Do you know how to find square in the middle of a field with no reference, and how to calculate the proper angle of your drainage lines and conduit BEFORE the concrete goes in? If you don't, you'll be ripping out the concrete and not only would you be fired, but you'll have a lot of people angry at you and you'll probably get your face smashed into said concrete.)

I continue to take side jobs in the mechanical trade when I want a bonus, but these days I devote almost all of my time to my studies.

In order to produce journeymen who are good at what they do, (not talking laborers who don't speak English and dig ditches) it takes no less than 5 years in the union apprenticeship program (while going to classes twice a week at night). That should be an indicator of the level of complexity construction actually requires. Most trades outside unions require at least that much time in the field, along with multiple references (along with the W2's--tax forums--to prove you had the experience) before you are granted a license to legally perform your trade.

What I am talking about exists in the ideal world. Often, you will find tradesmen out there who cheated the system and are not professionals. Yes, you can practice doing things the wrong way your entire life and not know it. I have met these people, and they are not professionals.

For me, personally, a log cabin would not cut it. I may be a perfectionist, and that may be unnecessary when it comes to alchemy (I actually do not think that is true, myself) but I settle for no less than the best.

How would you design a system to produce deionized water so as to be able to prevent the introduction of unwanted minerals into your compounds? In regards to alchemy, this may not be the case, but when it comes to something as simple as antibiotics, the growth process should not occur in an environment where the introduction of unwanted strains could ruin it.

So you need ventilation and climate control (hvac). Do you know what the lowest tier of hvac is? It's sheet metal work, which is a trade unto itself and requires years to master (because you have to know layout in order to create ductwork). If you feel like testing yourself, take a sheet of paper, a ruler, and a pencil and see how long it takes you to make a cube. Then imagine creating a shape like this:

http://www.sfp.co.nz/catalogue/assets/product_full/Square%20to%20Round%20Transitions%202.jpg

My point of all this: Alchemy and chemistry are no more complex than trades. And without trades, you don't have a building to occupy, no running water (which is essential to cleanliness and the unsung hallmark of the entire modern civilization), and no heat.

Don't forget to include time chopping firewood on top of your other mundane tasks.

Leon Corlew
01-15-2014, 06:49 PM
Please know that you are welcomed to be forthcoming with me at all times. This goes for anyone else here. I come from forums where the objective was to run people off. So I extend the same plea to you: please do not take what I say too personally.


Thanks for this, it's hard for me to know how to present myself to a new community (I'm not typically this verbose in person) and this is reasuring.


Unfortunately, I admit I have not done any research on this. My perspective comes from growing up on a mere 30 acres. It was by no means a farm, but the livestock and food we grew took a great deal of time. And the small amount of what we had was by no means enough to sustain us, and we still made regular trips to the grocery store.


I am curious then, how many were you? And do you remember the rough allocation of acreage to crops/livestock/other. Additionally do you recall the number of hours per person it took to maintain those reaources. Understand that I do not dispute your claim but that the matter of acres per person, hours per person, and proper distribution of acreage is an issue I need to work out more thouroughly.



I beg your pardon for my following words, but allow me to ask a simple plumbing question as a demonstration. Being that such a trade is not awfully complex, you should know the answer quite readily: What is the most efficient size and angle of a slope for a drainage pipe designed for human waste so as to prevent blockages while maintaining even flow, and what other type of pipe is required at the opposite slope?


I have no clue. I claim no working knowlage of the intricacies of plumbing. And perhaps I mistyped, or misthought even, I suppose I meant that plumbing (to the degree required for what I want to use it for) would not be terribly diffucult to learn. I would assume (I too lack much of the research necessary for such an endeavour) that such information is freely avalible, whether in books or on the internet.


If you jump over to Google, or some other search engine, you will have an idea of the complexity involved in the plumbing and mechanical trades. You mentioned auto mechanics. Do you really have any idea the complexity and knowledge (not to mention time) required to rebuild a car engine?


I hold no illusions of the simplicity of auto-mechanics, I'm aware that cars are extremely complex.


For me, personally, a log cabin would not cut it. I may be a perfectionist, and that may be unnecessary when it comes to alchemy (I actually do not think that is true, myself) but I settle for no less than the best.


I think this is the heart of our disagreement, I am willing to settle for conditions that will allow me to relatively easily maintain my own surroundings, you are not.



How would you design a system to produce deionized water so as to be able to prevent the introduction of unwanted minerals into your compounds? In regards to alchemy, this may not be the case, but when it comes to something as simple as antibiotics, the growth process should not occur in an environment where the introduction of unwanted strains could ruin it. So you need ventilation and climate control (hvac). Do you know what the lowest tier of hvac is? It's sheet metal work, which is a trade unto itself and requires years to master (because you have to know layout in order to create ductwork). If you feel like testing yourself, take a sheet of paper, a ruler, and a pencil and see how long it takes you to make a cube. Then imagine creating a shape like this:


For a chemistry laboratory this is all relevent, and while I do love chemistry it would not be my first priority to construct such a lab. Again, I believe we have a difference in standards.



My point of all this: Alchemy and chemistry are no more complex than trades.

I have to disagree with this. Well, maybe not exactly dissagree, let me explain. They are complex in different ways. Trades are conceptually simple for the most part, with things like auto-work being less so and things like construction being more so. They are often physically complex, as you mentioned there are some specific geometrical components to consider in construction and the inside of a car is a labyrinth unknown to me. Chemistry is conceptually complex but in practice can be quite simple. Certainly chemistry extends to extremely complex set-ups and reactions but there is a wealth of use in even the simplest reactions. Finally Alchemy. This adds some new components, primarily that fact that while the others can be learned with reliabilty from cleartexts in plain english Alchemy cannot. The texts are often obfuscated, encoded in images and symbols, poorly translated, un-translated, lost, fake, full of lies, or any combination of the above. And while it may be conceptually simple (only a few basic laws with no exceptions to them [such that I know]), these concepts are wholly inaccesable to most people, thus the small number of practicing alchemists and the relatively small supporting community. Alchemy also has a spiritual component absent from nearly all trades. As for physical complexity I must admit I am unsure as I am rather new to this knowlage. I know that the work takes place in a single vessel fo its entirety, if this implies simplicity then perhaps it is.


And without trades, you don't have a building to occupy, no running water (which is essential to cleanliness and the unsung hallmark of the entire modern civilization), and no heat.


I agree that trades are inately necessary for any sort of comfortable life but again I think that you would need the complexity of knowlage of trades to adapt to your standard of living while I am willing to adapt my standard of living to a knowlage of trades that is reasonable in a small community.

Eshai
01-16-2014, 12:07 AM
Given what you study, and your passions, I have no doubt you would be comfortable in a place "closer to nature." And I agree that this is most likely the dividing line between our perspectives.

I tend to look at things from a progressive viewpoint, and perhaps this perspective is flawed when it comes to alchemy. I know very little about alchemy at this point, and am only beginning my quest into learning the details of it. It has always been something inspirational for me, but nothing I ever practiced. The more I learn about it, the more I understand that being closer to nature is a fundamental part of it. Most unlike a chemistry lab, or any lab designed to manufacture anything on a large scale (even for, say, ten people), which touches "nature" as far as what is cooking in the pot.

A post on this site that sticks out in my mind was written by a now-banned member, who said something along the lines of, "go out and perform alchemy in an earthen pot in the ground." This idea was what drove home the point to me that alchemy may not necessarily be about physical purity and precision.

To answer your questions... growing up there were 3 of us. Myself and my parents (may their far-flung souls wander in misery for all eternity--another topic entirely). We had pigs, goats, chickens, and a garden that was perhaps one acre. (BBQ goat is actually really good, and I still love it to this day.) And something always seemed needing fixed at any given time, requiring hours of work. This did not include the time spent in the kitchen preparing what food we had grown, and preserving it either by dehydration or canning.

As I got older, this kind of "farming" lifestyle was slowly abandoned. Had my parents had more children, perhaps it would have been more profitable. My parents had this idea that they would each only work a couple days a week, and spend the rest of the time together. That time together inevitably became time spent working, and no amount of having the place running smoothly would supplement a required income to pay for their land. This meant go back to work full time, and just buy what you needed. And when they did this, they found they had even more "free" time with which they could use to torment me.

Hahaha!

As far as learning the practical trades, you are pretty much correct: they are easy to learn as anything else, if you have a mind for it and time to dedicate to it. And yes, while you may certainly grasp the ideas quickly (such as soldering copper pipe--the concept is as easy as it gets), in practice they are often more difficult and time consuming than they appear.

What you say about hidden knowledge in alchemy is quite true from what I have seen. Much of alchemy is shrouded in mystery, which makes me believe that the discoveries that were made were either too wonderful to share, or too horrible and maddening to allow to escape.

If every supply house had had different names for fittings, I wouldn't have got a single job done. I therefore do recognize how difficult alchemy can be, because while there are national standards for plumbing... there aren't for alchemy.

Though, the symbols in plumbing aren't much less cryptic than those in alchemy.
https://www.draftingsupplies.com/977145.jpg
http://colourschool.co.uk/colourschool/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/alchemy-symbols-page2.jpg
All that is required is that they are learned. And yes, it is difficult when everyone has their own symbols and secret words for things.

Some Chinese proverb goes, "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their correct names." Or, as I always interpreted it, the "agreed upon" name. What I have seen of alchemy is that little is uniform. Like you said, perhaps lies and deceit to conceal something. All in all, far from wisdom for those who do not know, and have no experience.

Personally, I feel that a commune-type lifestyle which is mostly self sustaining is a step backwards. Back to that time of making things up as you go, which I can only imagine was a trying and difficult time. More time spent learning to do things, and figuring them out, rather than refining those things, and mastering them. But perhaps my feelings on this come from that fear I talked about before. Fear of the unknown, perhaps. Fear of nature. Being stranded. Cut off. I'm not exactly sure. So perhaps it would not be a step backwards, but merely a step closer to the thing that alchemy depends most upon.

Maybe the act of learning to do these things is what is necessary. Rather than standing on the shoulders of giants, and seeing farther... maybe is no better or worse than seeing what is right in front of us.

I am reminded of something I saw a long time ago, which stuck in my mind. A girl went with her art class to the top of a mountain to paint a picture of the valley. She wanted to paint a flower that she came upon near to where she sat. She was scolded, because they didn't come all the way to the top of the mountain to paint some little flower...

I thank you, Leon Corlew, for your posts and this opportunity to reconsider my position.

/bows

Awani
01-17-2014, 02:49 PM
You know the LAB is not a commune (I loath the word)... too close to communism. The point of the LAB is to bring science AND art together (SciArt). Without the creative process science is nothing, and art with the tools of science can produce amazing things. So the issue of who is going to do the washing up? Well that can be solved by hiring someone to do it... after all the LAB will produce things of value that people can buy so there will be an income. But in the start-up phase this will not be possible of course... but hopefully it will be in time.

:cool:

Seth-Ra
01-21-2014, 07:42 AM
You know the LAB is not a commune (I loath the word)... too close to communism. The point of the LAB is to bring science AND art together (SciArt). Without the creative process science is nothing, and art with the tools of science can produce amazing things. So the issue of who is going to do the washing up? Well that can be solved by hiring someone to do it... after all the LAB will produce things of value that people can buy so there will be an income. But in the start-up phase this will not be possible of course... but hopefully it will be in time.

:cool:

Not only that but, correct me if im wrong, even in a "community" setting, the types of people who would gather and be part of such a thing would by default have to be decently responsible; so who cleans the dishes? Everyone. You make the mess, you clean it up. Simple.

As for trades, many of us have and do procure skills in the "normal" world, so its not that big of a deal. The one who is good at plumbing does the plumbing, and the one who is good at carpentry does the building, and those who dont have such knowledge, can provide misc labor during the constructions (everyone helps and pitches in.)

This isnt an unheard of system, nor is it that difficult. People have created, and survived with such co-efficient and co-operative communities for thousands of years. They tend to grow and cultivate something deeper than machines and base-knowledge.


Its amazing what can be done with some earthen ware and the celestial bodies - in the hands of the right person, more than what happens in a high dollar lab with sophisticated glassware and precision measurements.

Its also amazing at how friendly/helpful/human people can be when the capitalistic distractions are removed, and we are left with the simplicity of life helping life, rather than life back-stabbing life.





~Seth-Ra

Andro
01-21-2014, 08:43 AM
Nature is Communist, as every individual natural expression gives & receives according to its own disposition & needs.
And the Sun (both the visible one and the hidden one) makes for a very balanced and benevolent 'Stalin' :)

Nature is also Capitalist, as its seeds always gather starter capital (life force) and generate tremendous abundance & return on the investment. Nature never goes bankrupt.
And the Sun (both the visible one and the hidden one) also makes for a very balanced and benevolent C.E.O. :)

This all-encompassing 'hybrid' (and perfectly natural) model is indeed one of 'life helping life', and definitely NOT 'life backstabbing life'.

When applied by Earth Humans, these concepts get divided and distorted.
I don't think there was ever an expression of genuine/uncorrupted Communism or Capitalism in human history, let alone a Natural Synthesis/Hybrid.
________________________________
To be continued, I have to go now :o...

Awani
01-21-2014, 10:46 AM
You make the mess, you clean it up. Simple... The one who is good at plumbing does the plumbing, and the one who is good at carpentry does the building, and those who dont have such knowledge, can provide misc labor during the constructions (everyone helps and pitches in.)

I agree with the above. Also I imagine everyone to have their own toilet and kitchen (either in their room or in their own house). This way we can keep individuality within a group effort. There can be common toilets and kitchen area also, but there should always be the option to be able to go into solitude if one wants to.

:cool:

Eshai
01-22-2014, 01:28 PM
When I look at the LAB as a business opportunity, rather than an alternative lifestyle (even though it would be by default), it looks more probable. The idea that you are not trying to isolate yourself from society, and continue to want to be a part of it, improves the odds of success.

Have you considered a setup similar to a gated suburb? Right at the gate you'd have your store front, and everyone would live there. Everyone would own their own home, and everyone in the community would freely help one another where they could. (And like you said, dev, if something special needs to be hired out... hire it out.)

You'd only need a multimillion dollar investor. (No, I am not being sarcastic. These can be found in the right circles.) Or, everyone agrees to buy houses in the same burb, and you spend time slowly taking over the neighborhood (or recruiting from within), and transforming it into what you want.

Just thinking out loud here.

Andro
01-22-2014, 01:45 PM
When I look at the LAB as a business opportunity, rather than an alternative lifestyle (even though it would be by default), it looks more probable.
The idea that you are not trying to isolate yourself from society, and continue to want to be a part of it, improves the odds of success.

This is also how I see it, more or less... Yes to some isolation, but civilization is a stone throw away...


You'd only need a multimillion dollar investor. (No, I am not being sarcastic. These can be found in the right circles)

Can you find one? Do you have access to someone who has access to someone who has access to the 'right circles'?

I'm not into the suburb thing (done that on a very small scale) - I would prefer a decent property with land and houses and workplaces etc...

And for me and my group so far, it can't be in North America (neither Asia or Africa or Antarctica :)).

I'm eventually aiming either for the Mediterranean area (preferably one of the islands) or South America.

The climate has to be perfect :)

So we're in need of a millionaire and a good plan/motive/incentive...

Eshai
01-22-2014, 05:02 PM
Well consider the possibility of advancement, and the possibility of starting in a place/position which is not ideal. Stepping stones. Consider that you may not achieve this within your lifetime, and if not, is it still a goal you would want to work toward (even if you cannot enjoy it yourself)?

Before you can even consider finding investors, the first thing you must have is something that will sell. Once you have that, millionaires are often only a phone call away.

Andro
01-22-2014, 05:27 PM
Well consider the possibility of advancement, and the possibility of starting in a place/position which is not ideal. Stepping stones.

Perhaps it wasn't very clear that I am already living this 'life' (in a configuration similar to what is presented here), so the less-than-ideal starting place is in the past for me.
Currently, my group is morphing towards a new (and hopefully better) 'incarnation' of this life concept. Those who know me, know :)


Consider that you may not achieve this within your lifetime, and if not, is it still a goal you would want to work toward (even if you cannot enjoy it yourself)?

It's definitely something I want to enjoy myself, in this lifetime.

It doesn't have to be 'perfect'. I don't think it can ever be, but I sure want to enjoy what I'm striving for.


Before you can even consider finding investors, the first thing you must have is something that will sell. Once you have that, millionaires are often only a phone call away.

I'm not super keen on investors, but I am curious (since you mentioned the possibility) what (in your opinion) would drive such an investor to put his money into a thing like that? What would SELL it?

Awani
01-23-2014, 07:29 PM
I would not want to involve investors... then we loose independence. It will be poor/hard in the beginning, but when the products are created (elixir, inventions, art etc etc) money can be made.

:cool:

Seth-Ra
01-23-2014, 10:54 PM
I would not want to involve investors... then we loose independence. It will be poor/hard in the beginning, but when the products are created (elixir, inventions, art etc etc) money can be made.

:cool:

I'm more inclined to agree with Dev here.
Investors can demand a price higher than money (like, your soul, in many ways... The iconic "you were nothing without me - you OWE me!" Even if the money itself is handled.)

Anything worth having, requires work. That is a key part of the Art; it can't be whored. Buying the rarest texts and most expensive labware will get you 0 result without the spiritual work involved. Things must be worked towards - the joy and reward is more keenly tasted and experienced. I find we are often more akin to shaman, in that we are getting help from the Spirit, for the people in question, and the Spirit responds on behalf of we who are working towards and with it.

For a living and working environment, I'd say the same is true. We do the work, and enjoy the fullness of the lifestyle, of the drive and the spirit, while the outside world gets glimpses and "gold nuggets" we cultivate for them. Investors would/could attempt to lay claim to more than they can handle/deserve, and I don't think it's an any of our natures to be reigned in by such, and thus problems are more likely to happen.

Just my thoughts on it.




~Seth-Ra

Eshai
01-24-2014, 01:55 PM
And valuable thoughts they are.


What would SELL it?
Usefulness of a product sells a product. If you have something that is selling, and your sales are only limited by available capital, people will invest in you. And really the question I was asking is what would be sold. But I think dev sort of answered that:


(elixir, inventions, art etc etc)

But yes, I see. When it comes to a spiritual endeavor, you cannot really sell that. (Well, churches do. :o)


The iconic "you were nothing without me - you OWE me!"
People who say this don't have written contracts. (Which is also iconic, particularly of poorly made deals.) With the right ligation and management, this sort of thing is avoided. And honestly, everything anyone does could be considered "whoring." If you have a job, you "whore" yourself out to that job. Or your car payment, mortgage company, government... etc. Is one type of "whoring" more acceptable than another? *shrug* Just depends on your perspective.

You have to spend money to make money, and the compensation your investors get off the deal would be well earned. They're the ones taking the most risk, after all. And yes, you would owe them. You would owe them their fair share, as you would be bound to the contract, but nothing more.

But, as a reminder, I am talking about the LAB being a physical thing (physical place, and a business) instead of a philosophical idea.


Perhaps it wasn't very clear that I am already living this 'life' (in a configuration similar to what is presented here), so the less-than-ideal starting place is in the past for me.
Currently, my group is morphing towards a new (and hopefully better) 'incarnation' of this life concept.
I think that's just great. So we can be clear, are you talking about a physical community where you and your group lives and works, or the conceptual aspect? Or, is all this described somewhere else? (Like in another post or thread which I probably missed?)

Andro
01-24-2014, 02:08 PM
I think that's just great.

It is :)


So we can be clear, are you talking about a physical community where you and your group lives and works, or the conceptual aspect?

Both. Currently undergoing an 'upgrade' of sorts, including relocation... A work in progress...
But it always comes down to the people involved and the evolving relationship between them. Everything else is comparatively marginal.
'New Thought (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3783-New-Thought-Wallace-D.-Wattles-Napoleon-Hill-amp-Others)' refers to it as 'Master Mind Alliance'... It turns out we were practicing it before even knowing about the pre-existing philosophy/terminology :)


Or, is all this described somewhere else? (Like in another post or thread which I probably missed?)

Most of what I've shared publicly is spread all over this thread. Whether I wrote about it elsewhere on the forums, I don't remember...

Eshai
01-24-2014, 04:06 PM
You may have shared this already, so forgive me if I am asking repeat questions. Do you share a single living space, like a house? Or is everyone responsible for their own lodging, and you live close to each other? Do you sell any of your products?

Andro
01-24-2014, 04:25 PM
Do you share a single living space, like a house? Or is everyone responsible for their own lodging, and you live close to each other? Do you sell any of your products?

One big house. We've moved 2 times so far. Enough space for together, enough space for alone. Attached workshop and laboratory for alchemy and other research.

Planned new incarnation includes relocation, a bit of land and more than one building. Relatively not difficult to find in the area we're moving to.

For now, we're still in renting mode. Income was sourced from craftsmanship, teaching various workshops on the premises & occasional freelance projects in our different areas of expertise.

Not selling products/elixirs/etc...

The coming new incarnation also includes a business plan (registering a company in a particular field, suitable to the target relocation area).
One of us is already there, 'preparing the grounds', so to speak... This will hopefully eventually free up more time for personal R&D, but certainly not right away.
It will take a while and some dedicated hard work to get it going. And this is of course another step/upgrade.

Eventually I see a few more good & like-minded people joining us (who knows, maybe some are here on this forum :)), and eventually purchasing (as opposed to renting) a larger estate-like property in a temperate climate area, with further options for growth, business and self-reliance. These are the set goals, more or less. As long as we're moving forward, we're not moving backwards :)

Eshai
01-24-2014, 04:53 PM
That is simply marvelous! I am intrigued, obviously. Are there any personal relationships going on within your group? (Don't need specifics, obviously, but I am curious to know if it causes problems or is beneficial.) Are there any children involved, living in the household, or is this something that still might happen in the future?

Are there any contingency plans in place, such as if someone wants to leave and sell their share? I can see how this would not be much of an issue when renting, but what about when you go to purchase real estate?

Are there members of the household who are not alchemists?

Other than the lessons you teach, are there other sources of income? (Do people have second jobs?) Are all the lessons which are taught related to alchemy?

Is there a common religion, and is it a focus? (Or a requirement?)

Forgive all my questions, but I am very interested. Here in the US there are often "one family per dwelling" codes, which legally prevents multiple families living together in the same household under most circumstances. (There are some minor exceptions, such as renting a room to someone.) When people are caught in violation of this, social services comes into play. Then of course there are commercial zoning issues, which in some cases, depending on the income of a business, can prevent people from working out of their house and requires them to obtain a store front).

In other words, in the US there are a lot of legal issues in place which prevent this kind of lifestyle from succeeding anywhere beyond a bunch of people living in the same house. That is, when it ends up making money like a business, things have to separate somehow, and it always ends up costing a lot more money.

Andro
01-24-2014, 05:24 PM
Wow, so many questions :)


Are there any personal relationships going on within your group? (Don't need specifics, obviously, but I am curious to know if it causes problems or is beneficial.)

Yes, and it causes no problems whatsoever.


Are there any children involved, living in the household, or is this something that still might happen in the future?

No, and I/we don't really see it happening.


Are there any contingency plans in place, such as if someone wants to leave and sell their share?
I can see how this would not be much of an issue when renting, but what about when you go to purchase real estate?

When it comes to this, we'll worry about it.


Are there members of the household who are not alchemists?

Everyone practices their own 'brand' of Alchemy, so to speak. But the shared passion for applying/living/practicing Hermetic Principles is definitely a common denominator (for us).


Other than the lessons you teach, are there other sources of income? (Do people have second jobs?)

Yes, all sorts of income streams. I won't speak for the others, but apart from teaching workshops/courses, I also do freelance work in music production.


Are all the lessons which are taught related to alchemy?

'Occult' stuff in general, not specific to practical alchemy. (Shamanic Healing, Hermetic Philosophy, etc...)


Is there a common religion, and is it a focus? (Or a requirement?)

Sure. I am god and everyone has to worship me :)

Just kidding ! ! ! (sort of... he he...)

But seriously, as far as organized religions go, then there's none of it going on. Not our thing. But we're neither Theists nor Atheists, if that makes any sense...

The Hermetic Vision of 'god' (All in All, One Thing, etc) pretty much applies to us.


Forgive all my questions, but I am very interested. Here in the US there are often "one family per dwelling" codes, which legally prevents multiple families living together in the same household under most circumstances. (There are some minor exceptions, such as renting a room to someone.) When people are caught in violation of this, social services comes into play. Then of course there are commercial zoning issues, which in some cases, depending on the income of a business, can prevent people from working out of their house and requires them to obtain a store front).

In other words, in the US there are a lot of legal issues in place which prevent this kind of lifestyle from succeeding anywhere beyond a bunch of people living in the same house. That is, when it ends up making money like a business, things have to separate somehow, and it always ends up costing a lot more money.

As much as I would prefer to stay away from definitions, we do consider ourselves a sort of 'family', in the spiritual sense. Or a 'Hermetic Alliance'...
We've been traveling this path together for almost 6 years and there sure have been ups and downs, but we're not the kind that gives up.
If anything, the shared journey has brought us so much closer together.

We're not in the US, and have every intention to stay as far away from the US as possible.
Not because of the people, but because where it appears to be heading to.
And the 'codes' you mention only strengthen this conviction.

Eshai
01-24-2014, 05:35 PM
Thanks for answering my questions. I look forward to learning more about your progress as time goes on. =)


We're not in the US, and have every intention to stay as far away from the US as possible.
Not because of the people, but because where it appears to be heading to.
And the 'codes' you mention only strengthen this conviction.
/nod

Andro
05-19-2016, 11:40 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know, I (actually my friends and me) haven't given up!

We are gradually setting plans in motion to make it happen.

The more 'time' passes, the more I realize that this is the type of environment where I want to spend the 'time' I have left here.

Dendritic Xylem
05-20-2016, 02:17 AM
Such a cool idea, I hope everything is going smoothly Andro. :cool:

I highly recommend everyone strive to eventually achieve a deep subterranean LAB.
Mountainous regions are good for this. Especially areas known for caves.

Today they have detectors which can scan for underground voids, surprisingly deep.
I think that would be a wise investment if you scrounged up millions.

Of course there's issues with mineral rights and digging permits...
but I doubt anyone will bother you if the land is rural with no close neighbors.
Just build your house on top of the entrance.
Then hide the entrance behind a bookshelf or fireplace.

Your LAB will last centuries.

Awani
05-20-2016, 02:19 PM
Cave-like dwellings seem cool but from experience they are not. Perhaps for ritual space but no more.

From my perspective the LAB's physical form is not what is the eternal, but the concept of it. I used to see it as a big house. One time I even looked at an abandoned mental asylum.

Now I think a little village is a much better structure. Then those that like to live in wood can do so, and those that like to live in stone can live in stone. And everyone can have their own plot. Privacy and individual space is important. And naturally there will be some sort of space that everyone can use.

Just like a tribal society. It worked pretty well for 100 000 years till the rise of society fucked it all up.

Mountains are cool but I think the ocean is even more important.

:cool:

Andro
05-20-2016, 04:32 PM
Such a cool idea, I hope everything is going smoothly Andro. :cool:

I highly recommend everyone strive to eventually achieve a deep subterranean LAB.
Mountainous regions are good for this. Especially areas known for caves.

Today they have detectors which can scan for underground voids, surprisingly deep.
I think that would be a wise investment if you scrounged up millions.

Of course there's issues with mineral rights and digging permits...
but I doubt anyone will bother you if the land is rural with no close neighbors.
Just build your house on top of the entrance.
Then hide the entrance behind a bookshelf or fireplace.

Your LAB will last centuries.

Thank you!

I don't think we need it to last centuries :)

I also prefer closeness to water. Sea is fine, but a big lake will do as well. Good agricultural land is also significant.

The 'village' concept is what we have in mind as well. And definitely rural land with no near neighbors. There are a some potential locations for that.

Why do you think it would be a wise investment if there are underground 'voids' involved?

Thanks for the encouragement!

Dendritic Xylem
05-20-2016, 05:22 PM
Why do you think it would be a wise investment if there are underground 'voids' involved?

You can go scouting for properties and scan the ground for deep cave systems.
If you are looking in an area that is known for caves, eventually you can find a property with something deep.
Dig to that void so that you won't have to create your own void. It's a lot of work...


Of course it would take a very large effort and there's a good chance that you will run into unmanageable problems and never find a good spot for the project. But if you can make it work....you could make a very significant difference in the World that lasts centuries rather than a few short decades.
Or you could start a breakaway civilization.

Ghislain
05-21-2016, 10:48 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS7Adv3DFXg&ab_channel=VacanzeDaVivere

Ghislain

theFool
09-14-2016, 10:46 AM
Living off the grid requires energy production and storage. Electric energy can be produced by solar panels; it is an "one time" investment that requires almost no maintenance and lasts for more than 20 years.

However, energy storage is a problem that has not been solved efficiently yet. The current method of storing electricity in lead-acid batteries is not very practical as they need frequent replacement (every 3-4 years) and they are very expensive as energy containers.

Looking at future possible methods that are not still commercial, I would point out the possibility of electricity to diesel conversion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-diesel). Big companies (like audi (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3059025/Audi-creates-DIESEL-air-water-fuel-future-powering-car-driven-German-minister.html) and shell) are already doing it in a large scale. The process can be done in a much smaller scale (http://www.sunfire.de/en/applications/fuel) too but there is no commercial unit yet.

Ideally, this unit should require little maintenance and will be a one time investment like the solar panels. In that way, energy can be stored at very low cost (eg. barrels with diesel). Also, it could provide fuels for transportation that would be generated on site. This allows independence from the electric and fuel grid eleminating the necessity to pay eternally the fees.

Awani
09-14-2016, 11:05 AM
There is the Tesla Wall battery, but I do not know if it is good or not. Personally planning to buy solar panels for my home before the government removes the grants they now give for this.

:cool:

theFool
09-14-2016, 12:39 PM
There is the Tesla Wall battery, but I do not know if it is good or not. Personally planning to buy solar panels for my home before the government removes the grants they now give for this. I don't have an opinion about the Tesla Wall battery but reading the specifications, the 10 year warranty is a good sign (and Tesla Motors a serious company with experience on batteries. From what I have heard, they last for more than nine years in the tesla cars).

Normaly, houses with solar panels sell the excess electricity to the grid. Depending on the prices (and the hidden taxes of the electric bill ...) going completely off grid might be a more economical option. But usually it is not, the off grid option is for houses in remote places.

Awani
09-14-2016, 12:46 PM
Considering my use of technology I will not have much power to sell so it will be off-grid. Already have my own well. So only grid thing would be the guys who come ones a year and cleans out the shit tank.

We can never go fully off-grid, as you say, unless we go native so to speak. Move into some remote area etc.

:cool:

Awani
09-14-2016, 01:06 PM
I have started to consider that to go truly off grid you have to go offline. If you don't you might as well stay in the grid.

My dream was living secretly in nature but with Internet access, but when I have spent time in nature fully immersed I never longed for the Internet. So offline is truly the only path to go IMO.

:cool:

theFool
09-14-2016, 01:38 PM
I'm reading an article about "Inedia" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia#Practitioners) in wikipedia. Amongst others, there is a quote that:


Paracelsus was described as having lived "several years by taking only one half scrupule of Solar Quintessence"
Well, that is the meaning of the "off grid" to me.

Andro
09-14-2016, 03:09 PM
I'm reading an article about "Inedia" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia#Practitioners) in wikipedia. Amongst others, there is a quote that:


Paracelsus was described as having lived "several years by taking only one half scruple of Solar Quintessence"

Well, that is the meaning of the "off grid" to me.

Hear, Hear!

theFool
09-14-2016, 06:38 PM
Considering my use of technology I will not have much power to sell so it will be off-grid. I have some experience running an off grid camping refrigerator during summer. The system had the ability to run the refrigerator for 24 hours given that there are no clouds during the day and that it works during summer when the day is lengthier.

If this system had to be able to run into the winter too, extra solar panels would be required (double) and bigger battery bank in order to get it through the rainy days (must be able to last for 3 days at least). This means extra equipment that will go unused for the rest of the year. During the summer it will be producing the double amount of energy compared to what I would need because my consumption is fairly stable throughout the year.

So, what I am going to do with the surplus?

- Let it waste. Well at least I can say that I am off the grid :rolleyes:
- Sell it to the electricity company. It will provide a revenue no matter how low the price is. Alternatively, it would be lost, so .. (Possible contraindications to this solution would be for example the high municipal taxes for grid connection, bureocracy, etc.)
- Store it during the summer and use it through the winter. It is the best solution, but still commercially unavailable.

That is why I am anticipating an electricity to diesel (or methanol) solution. Some people go so far as to store the electricity energy as hydrogen in pressurized tanks but this, unfortunately, is far too dangerous.

If you go for the off grid, do some research on the nickel-iron battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery). This type of battery is supposed to have a lifetime of 30 years (http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery) and an excellent duarability in low temperatures. I 've been reading about people using them in off grid systems. Also they are used by the military.
Unfortunately, their price (http://www.bimblesolar.com/batteries/nifebatteries) can be more than 5 times higher compared to lead acid batteries but you buy them once.
Together with the 25 years lifetime of the solar panels, it might be a worthy investment.

Dendritic Xylem
09-14-2016, 08:19 PM
This type of battery is supposed to have a lifetime of 30 years (http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery) and an excellent duarability in low temperatures. I 've been reading about people using them in off grid systems. Also they are used by the military. Unfortunately, their price (http://www.bimblesolar.com/batteries/nifebatteries) can be more than 5 times higher compared to lead acid batteries but you buy them once.

Sounds worth it to me.
AGM batteries are around 3x price of regular flooded lead acid.
But they don't sound even 1/3 as good as these ni/fe cells.
Thanks for the info, I'm going to look into it for my future homestead.
I'm in an area very conducive to water wheels...which are another means of 24/7 on-demand power without storage.

zoas23
09-14-2016, 08:32 PM
You can go scouting for properties and scan the ground for deep cave systems.
If you are looking in an area that is known for caves, eventually you can find a property with something deep.
Dig to that void so that you won't have to create your own void. It's a lot of work...


Of course it would take a very large effort and there's a good chance that you will run into unmanageable problems and never find a good spot for the project. But if you can make it work....you could make a very significant difference in the World that lasts centuries rather than a few short decades.
Or you could start a breakaway civilization.

If you like that idea, I can say that my uncle did it.
He has a strange story: he was diagnosed with a cancer when he was around 30 years old, he was an Architect... he investigated "alternative" cures for cancer and allegedly he cured his cancer with a special diet (I think it was vegetarian + some fish).

Anyway, after he healed his cancer, he sold everything he had and moved to Brazil and bought a huge abandoned mine in a small town, a very poor town. He really paid almost nothing for it, because it had no value... and he built a FANTASTIC house there. He even had a natural cascade inside his house.

The town was very poor and the people were starving... so he organized them and taught them the Terrace System of Cultivation, so the whole town (some 300 persons) built a huge Terrace System and suddenly there was food for everyone and the starving was over. It worked as a "communist" project, though without any "marxist" implications. He also convinced the whole town to follow the diet he was following (I have to say that he had some sort of "messianic complex" and he was respected in his town as if he was the living God walking among the mortals... and I think he believed such thing himself too).

Anyway... he managed to build a house in a cave, I have never seen any other house which was as beautiful as his house. He also changed the whole economy of the town by teaching better ways of natural cultivation and a non-marxist "communist" system of thinking.

Sadly his distrust for modern medicine and the belief that his diet was able to cure any disease made him die very young (probably a silly bacteria killed him, I am not sure. He died when he was around 50 years old)... but, still, he is a great example of how to live "outside of the system".

BTW: Caves are often quite humid... so if you have serious plans of doing such thing, have in mind that they are NOT the best place to store books (I mean, if you are seriously in love with books). Other than that, if you know the basics of Architecture, you can build with almost no money (though with a lot of effort) a Mansion that would make the house of Donald Trump or Bill Gates look cheap and stupid.

Dendritic Xylem
09-14-2016, 09:10 PM
What a wonderful adventure...thank you for sharing zoas!
Definitely need dehumidifiers running 24/7 in the caves around here.
Overunity device would really come in handy.

I'd really like to know the name of the Brazilian town if you ever remember or find out.
It would be interesting if there are remnants of your uncles 'system' there today.

Awani
09-14-2016, 09:41 PM
If this system had to be able to run into the winter too, extra solar panels would be required (double) and bigger battery bank in order to get it through the rainy days (must be able to last for 3 days at least).

What you say is suited to your needs based on your location in the world, alas my own current location in the world has practically no sunlight for almost 4 months... so surplus would for me not happen. ;) Although I could add some sort of wind power to my roof. We got plenty of that, and those are fairly easy to make.

Regardless whatever problems might arise from solar panels, in the end they are never a bad investment. Go for it.

:cool:

zoas23
09-14-2016, 10:10 PM
What a wonderful adventure...thank you for sharing zoas!
Definitely need dehumidifiers running 24/7 in the caves around here.
Overunity device would really come in handy.

I'd really like to know the name of the Brazilian town if you ever remember or find out.
It would be interesting if there are remnants of your uncles 'system' there today.

I don't really remember the name of the town, but I will ask my parents about it. They may not remember the name of the town either, but they will know for sure in which State of Brazil it is located and if it was in the north, south, east or west of such State. He had a wife, so maybe she still lives there. If not, then maybe somebody else is living there, because it was definitely the "best house" of the town and literally "as solid as rock".

Gonna ask my parents about it later. If they remember the name of the town, then maybe it would be possible to "see" it using google Earth. There's several photos of his house at my parents house, but I would have to dive into a large mass of photos (they have some 6 huge boxes filled with photos which are not organized).

He was a funny man, very mystic, sometimes TOO mystic. His name was Raul. When I was around 14 years old, he painted for me my "real identification card"... which was a cardboard with the size of a normal ID card, but painted by him... and it stated that I was a member of "The Club of the Unknown Philosophers". I was used to his oddities, so I liked it (I sadly lost it). Several years later, I was amazed when I found out that Louis Claude de Saint Martin used to call himself an "unknown philosopher" (but I have no idea if my uncle was familiar with his works or not).

Anyway, he is the greatest example I know of someone who had a "normal life" and then decided to do what Tim Leary used to call "drop out" (of the system) and lived a "natural life" under his own rules. I don't know if I would do what he did... but his example showed me that it's perfectly possible (and even easy) to do it... of course, if that's what you want to do (my weird confession, I happen to live in the city which has BOTH more bookstores and theaters per capita... and I am so used to such thing, that I would probably feel sad if I am not surrounded by bookstores and theaters... but that's just me).

Awani
09-15-2016, 01:39 PM
It requires some skill but you can drop out and still stay in society. Not saying one should, but it is not black and white. Also depends on the society of course.

:cool:

zoas23
09-16-2016, 07:39 AM
It requires some skill but you can drop out and still stay in society. Not saying one should, but it is not black and white. Also depends on the society of course.

Of course, and that's honestly the option I prefer (shame on me, but I would not stand to live outside of a big city which offers a wide cultural diversity and the opportunity to be in touch with experimental art... I need museums, alternative cinemas, theaters with experimental plays, seeing live bands playing the craziest music possible, bookstores with rare books... I have this spirit and if I had to live, say, in the middle of the Amazon Jungle, I would probably go crazy... yeah, I can have vacations there, but staying there for my whole life would be VERY depressing for me. Probably this isn't a good trait, but that's how I am).

There are other ways to "DROP OUT" without becoming a hermit in the middle of the Jungle. Well, my uncle Raul did it his way and went to live in a small town, inside a cave, in Brazil... He was an average architect, and suddenly he was a man living from a communal plantation that he created with the whole of the town.

Another friend, Jean... He lived in the glamorous city of Paris and was somehow famous in the French "occult scene", especially among those who like Aleister Crowley. He went to Bolivia to have vacations there and he faced the Shamanic culture of Bolivia and something interesting happened in his mind. He thought: "What the hell am I doing in Paris? What can Aleister Crowley offer me that the Cholas* don't know? Isn't this one the biggest Shamanic culture in the whole world?". He returned to Paris... and after some months I received a fantastic e-mail from him. His mail mostly said: "Fuck Crowley, Fuck Paris, Fuck the European occult scene... I am moving to the most amazing shamanic culture in the whole world and I am the happiest man on Earth!".

And this is how Jean lives since some 15 years ago (he is, of course, the "European looking" one in the video), very happy to be in Bolivia and living there among the Shamans, without any kind of European arrogance that makes his say: "I know better than you"... but learning from them and mostly being VERY happy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qz5j1TJpM4

I don't know why I am quoting Leary so much, because he's not really one of my favorite authors, but I'll use his famous phrase: "you can be anyone this time around".

An architect who lives in a huge city can end up living in a small town inside a cave and building a communitarian plantation and an alternative economy.
An occultist from Paris can end up moving to the zone of Bolivia where the Shamanic Culture is alive and kicking and change the glamour of Paris for the enchanted mountains of the Pachamama.

Home is where the heart is... and "you can be anyone this time around" is a reality.
And since Jean looks to me like the identical young twin of William Burroughs, I'll quote my favorite phrase of Naked Lunch: "Hustlers of the world, there is one Mark you cannot beat: The Mark Inside."

*Cholas = the name of the female descendants of the aborigines of Bolivia.