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lillith93
04-11-2010, 02:11 PM
Okay, I know this is going to start out sounding really selfish because of the name, but it has nothing to do with me. My real name isn't Lillith, but this is why I chose that name.

There is a legend about the true beginning of creation. Mind you this is a Hebrew legend. It is said that Eve was not the first wife of Adam. In the true beginning man and women were made separate. They were not made from one flesh. The first woman was named Lilith. Adam and Lilith started out very much in love. For the first few days everything went well, but Lilith started to notice more and more that she was becoming unhappy. She didn't like the jobs she was handed, and she didn't like always getting the short end of the stick. So one night when they were going to bed she asked to, for propriety's sake, sleep on top. When Adam refused she said God's name in vain and was banished from The Garden of Eden. The angels that carried her took her to a barren land and were soon to destroy her. She convinced them to make a deal with her though. The deal they made allowed her to live. It is said that the deal was that she could have any new born baby that did not have the name of those angels above their cradle. This is supposedly how all "evil monsters" were created. Lilith is called the mother of monsters.

That is the reason I chose the name I chose. I really like this legend, and even though I do not consider myself "evil" I can understand Lilith's plight. I also appreciate this story because it mentions a failure of the christian god. I was raised with a christian father, and he often shoved it down my throat that god was perfect. So I get kicks and giggles when I think of this one failure of the perfect god.

Seth-Ra
04-11-2010, 06:08 PM
Im afraid i see no "failure" to the Creator (God) in this story - just an angry, dissatisfied woman hellbent on doing evil to distract her from her dissatisfaction.
She was a rebel, like every other person who places their own wants/desires (ego) above that of the Order set by the Maker, shown in Nature. Its the ego causing sickness and destruction because it refuses to integrate into One, doing its job.

We all have jobs, we dont always like them, but it is our place to serve, and in doing so, be served. (peace begets peace, war begets war etc...etc... If you give, you will receive, etc...etc...)

The being known as Lilith - the demon goddess, is the epitome of a selfish, vile, horrid creature, by her own choosing. Her only plight was stubbornness - much like a goat with its head caught in the fence, demanding to die then be helped because it is ignorant and chooses to be so. (ignorance, the worst of sicknesses, so they say. ;) )

Alchemists seek to help, and be helped: to cure All, including the ego, and our own stubbornness - resist nothing, be One with the All.

Thats all ive got to say about it, as most of it is already known.
Id rather ascend the Sephiroth then the Qliphoth. ;)


~Seth-Ra

horticult
04-12-2010, 07:47 PM
1st waster - lillith
2nd waster - eve
..



btw u have wrong info: lilith was not from flesh & there was no job b4 expulsion from eden etc ad nauseam

Seth-Ra
04-12-2010, 08:05 PM
Horticult,

Genesis chapter 3 is when the "fall" came, and they were sent out of the Garden, but in Chapter 2:15, it says Man was placed in the garden to work it and take care of it. So there was a "job" before they were expelled. ;)


Id also like to point out there is no reference to Lilith being made first in the scriptures. The one everyone attempts to use is done so very poorly, as its taken way out of context (reaching quite far infact). The passage in question is during the first chapter:
Gen 1: 27: So God made man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

Then in chapter 2 it tells of him making Adam, and then Eve. Is it such a stretch to say that chapter two backs up and describes how He made man and woman, or even that because He made them in His image, and He is a spirit, that He made their souls even? (like the old idea of everyone's soul is waiting to be born physically, basically.)

I just wanted to point it out, youd think as important as the demon Lilith is, that she'd be mentioned in the Torah during the time she was supposedly around, but she isnt. Furthermore, i dont see humans turning into demons or angels. We are not cut "from the same cloth" as them, so they fact she is one, means she was never human. (unless like some other legends say, a witch that stole children, or some decrepit person of such behavior.)



~Seth-Ra

Andro
04-12-2010, 09:09 PM
1st waster - lillith
2nd waster - eve

What do you mean by 'waster'?

'Waster' of what?

lillith93
04-12-2010, 10:55 PM
Women are not a waste. I didn't say Lilith was from the flesh. As a matter of fact I don't believe I said anything about where Lilith was from. I believe I said they were not made from the same flesh. I never once stated what flesh or even if she was flesh. The jobs I speak of were things like naming animals, making food, etc.

Also, Seth-Ra, I don't hold much faith for the christian beliefs. I've lived my entire life based on those beliefs up until the last two years, and I have seen exactly 0 results. I was always unhappy, and the people around me were just as unhappy. It was always pray about it pray about it pray about it, or don't do that don't do this. I am not blaming the Creator, and I very much believe in a Creator. I am simply saying that the way Christians perceive the creator is flawed. I also understand Lilith. It only makes sense that she felt she had the right to be equal with Adam. The fact that she fought for that in the very beginning is what I understand, but that does not mean I condone what she did later. I do understand her though. It is easy to understand someone if you only try. Even the most vile of people can be understood when looked at from a different perspective.

Seth-Ra
04-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Also, Seth-Ra, I don't hold much faith for the christian beliefs. I've lived my entire life based on those beliefs up until the last two years, and I have seen exactly 0 results. I was always unhappy, and the people around me were just as unhappy. It was always pray about it pray about it pray about it, or don't do that don't do this. I am not blaming the Creator, and I very much believe in a Creator. I am simply saying that the way Christians perceive the creator is flawed. I also understand Lilith. It only makes sense that she felt she had the right to be equal with Adam. The fact that she fought for that in the very beginning is what I understand, but that does not mean I condone what she did later. I do understand her though. It is easy to understand someone if you only try. Even the most vile of people can be understood when looked at from a different perspective.

I understand her, but that doesnt make her any less wrong. ;)
Also, i can understand the resentment towards the beliefs based on the people who profess to be of those beliefs. (i understand that all to well)
My approach to it is simply different though: take from it (beliefs) what i know to be right, and see the posers for what they are: posers, and not take their actions out on the beliefs themselves.

But of course im not gonna be preachy, as it isnt my concern, you and everyone are free to believe what you will, im simply voicing my perspective and advice in hopes it may help in whatever you choose. :)


~Seth-Ra

lillith93
04-12-2010, 11:22 PM
Thank you for those wise words :o

horticult
04-12-2010, 11:40 PM
>Seth-Ra
Get a better translation of Bible or understanding.
Man was not created in order to work; certainly not in the sense which has "work/job" now or b4 years. So her reasoning in that legend is utter nonsense.


Waster is an abortion, waste, wastrel or maybe you now in correct times are washed off this terminus technicus.

Seth-Ra
04-12-2010, 11:53 PM
>Seth-Ra
Get a better translation of Bible or understanding.
Man was not created in order to work; certainly not in the sense which has "work/job" now or b4 years. So her reasoning in that legend is utter nonsense.


Waster is an abortion, waste, wastrel or maybe you now in correct times are washed off this terminus technicus.

everything we do is work, the act of reading, learning, practicing alchemy, is a form of work. It is our work, our job, to participate in nature and Art as is our birthright, to work with and help take care of nature and to get closer to the Creator.
This work is not the same as a job/work that is needed to live in a society, but even at that, we should strive for a job that we will enjoy, find importance and some sorta meaning in it. (and just like studying a blade of grass, even the most lamest of jobs has its lessons to teach.)

But wether its tending a garden, or working in a factory making things, playing with our bodies internal energies, or in a lab, its work, and there is always something we can learn from it.

Everything takes in energy, and expels energy, this is all a form of work.

Words of advice Horticult: Dont try to remove the splinter from someone else's eye when you still have a 2x4 in yours: do you understand? :p

:)


~Seth-Ra

lillith93
04-13-2010, 01:18 AM
Once again Seth-Ra, your wisdom astounds me.

rebis
04-13-2010, 10:29 AM
An interesting discussion. Seth-Ra I like your spirit - or should I say - the spirit with which you communicate. Another (more generic) take on Lilith is that she is one example of the new, masculine dominated monotheistic religion's rejection - and demonisation - of the Goddess and the feminine. This is reflected in the other monotheistic religions arising from the levant - Christianity and Islam. My understanding is that the Catholic Church only accepted the Assumption of the Virgin Mary in the 20th century and, of course, the holy trinity is entirely masculine.

horticult
04-13-2010, 04:30 PM
Better a splinter than to be blind.
Adam + Eve were in Paradise, & were immortal.
After that, sweat & death.

Andro
04-13-2010, 04:43 PM
Better a splinter than to be blind.

Billy Joel - River of Dreams:


In the middle of the night, I go walking in my sleep
From the mountains of faith, to the river so deep
I must be lookin' for something, something sacred I lost
But the river is wide, and it's too hard to cross.

Even though I know the river is wide
I walk down every evening and stand on the shore
I try to cross to the opposite side
So I can finally find what I've been looking for.

In the middle of the night I go walking in my sleep
Through the valley of fear, to a river so deep
I've been searching for something, taken out of my soul
Something I'd never lose, Something somebody stole.

I don't know why I go walking at night
But now I'm tired and I don't want to walk anymore
I hope it doesn't take the rest of my life
Until I find what it is I've been looking for.

In the middle of the night, I go walking in my sleep
Through the jungle of doubt, to the river so deep

I know I'm searching for something, something so undefined

That it can only be seen
By the eyes of the blind.

I’m not sure about a life after this
God knows I've never been a spiritual man
Baptized by the fire, I wade into the river
That is runnin' through the promised land.

In the middle of the night, I go walking in my sleep
Through the desert of truth, to the river so deep
We all end in the ocean, we all start in the streams
We're all carried along by the river of dreams.

In the middle of the night...
_______________________________________

Hint: Use Gay Science 4 interpretation...

;)

solomon levi
04-13-2010, 05:51 PM
The alchemical implications considered, it seems to me that
Lilith represents the Primordial "Stone", dark, black, lowly nature, despised...
Eve, Chavah, is life and breath, perhaps the white stage.
Adamah is red earth.

Understandably, Lilith came before Adam. ;)


You learn alot about the Torah by interpreting each autiot individually instead
of grouped as a word. See Suares, "The Cipher of Genesis" for an interesting read.

solomon

Seth-Ra
04-13-2010, 06:17 PM
Thanks Rebis, my communication spirit is obviously due to my Gemini traits. ;)


Horticult,

What on earth makes you think Adam and Eve were perfect or immortal? God said it was all good, not that it was all perfect, and two examples of imperfection: tree of knowledge of good and evil (even though they knew not of it, it was still there) and the devil was there also.

Adam and Eve never ate from the tree of life to become immortal, thats why they were sent out of the garden and cherubim placed at the gates with flaming swords - to keep them out.
Adam and Eve were like children: not knowing or comprehending the evil in the world, not knowing of death until a loved one, or pet, dies etc...
It is not our job to try and go back to the blissful ignorance of the past, but to go forward, to get closer to the maker by "becoming like Him", starting with knowing good and evil, the two opposites that must be understood, and balanced, so to form a whole absolute causing either to ascend, or to descend.

What i see is that the Creator was a genius in His whole plan for it all, and it really is quite simple: move forward. Always move forward, not backward.

As a side note Horticult,

Sweat detoxifies the body, and death frees the soul from vulgar matter, as an alchemist you'd think you could appreciate these things. ;)


Sol',

Though im not sure i believe the whole Lilith myth, i would say that was an interesting take on it, and id be inclined to see it as an alchemical allegory sure enough. :)
On the note of evil and vile creatures, looking to the same text (Bible), anyone ever notice that the evil forces of destruction/darkness get thrown into a "Lake of Fire"? Sounds like a Hexagram/Seal of Solomon, which represents creation and balancing of absolutes... thats also brilliant: destruction can no longer break it all (cause in the end Creation IS made perfect) and thus destroys itself, and becomes part of the creation. (if Destruction is destroyed it obviously becomes Perfection.) :cool:

Where i obviously disagree with the real Lilith's actions and consider her the example of what NOT to do, it is the same with the world: the fires of destruction are needed for change and purification to come - duality balanced for an absolute. :)


~Seth-Ra

Ab Roek
04-13-2010, 10:56 PM
I agree with you. Lilith represents the Stone in a "state of Nature," undeveloped, unrefined, and seemingly unresponsive.

Of course, Adam, Eve, and Lilith were not "people" at all. Similarly, there is no "Father God" who creates and approves of our lives. There is only ELOHIM, the plenary male and female forces of creation.

More precisely-
There is no God but Man.

Fidelity,
AB RK



The alchemical implications considered, it seems to me that
Lilith represents the Primordial "Stone", dark, black, lowly nature, despised...
Eve, Chavah, is life and breath, perhaps the white stage.
Adamah is red earth.

horticult
04-14-2010, 12:22 AM
Blind after blind is falling into pit,
but keep saying: "Pit is not pit."


Ohhgm, ehm, mmm its this not verily an alch. pitch, or, hmm at least common or maybe philosophical..

Andro
04-14-2010, 12:51 AM
Darkness/stimulates pineal/inner sight.

Rabbit Hole /=Pit 2 Wonderland
____________________________

There is vulgar pit & not vulgar pit.

vulgar pit /= fall down

not vulgar pit /= fall up (like to Tipheret/Wonderland)

Vulgar eyes only C vulgar pit & think they're not falling, but wonder Y can't C pit up 2 Wonderland...

Pity, pity, pity... Such Pity 4 vulgar I's
____________________________

like 4 xample /not personal/:

vulgar asshole /=Bad Pit, fall down even w/eyes not blind

'philosophical' asshole/=good pit/=rectum/=rectification /= Pluto/Scorpio/=casting off hetero superfluities/ascention/transformation/etc...

Joy
04-14-2010, 06:41 AM
Ab Roek .. with respect:)

For me Lilith is not the "Black Sophia"

Lilith is sure a certain aspect, like godforms are, but the "Black Sophia" turns white
thru transformation . She carries the philosophical child inside.
When you look a the first emblem in the " aurora consurgens" you can see it all.

solomon levi
04-14-2010, 06:19 PM
Black Sophia, Black Madonna, Black Lilith, Black Isis (Mel-issa)...

I think these share pretty similar stories and they are all about oneself.
Like the Gnostic tale of Sophia, creating something (the Demiurgos) without her
consort and then having to fall get raped and abused and repair/redeem everything...
that is our journey. We fell into the altered ego and sabotage ourselves until
we rise above it. I am Sophia; I am the Demiurge; I am the Christos...

The same in the Garden... it isn't something that happened to two people long ago.
It happened to us. It is happening to us now. I am Adam, Eve, the serpent and IHVH.
I am Osiris, Isis, Set and Horus...

That's how I see it. ;)

rebis
04-15-2010, 03:07 AM
That's how I see it.

Likewise

lillith93
04-15-2010, 03:51 AM
Where i obviously disagree with the real Lilith's actions and consider her the example of what NOT to do, it is the same with the world: the fires of destruction are needed for change and purification to come - duality balanced for an absolute. :)



I totally agree with you Seth-Ra. I'm not quite on the same level as you, but I've found in my short life that when something is destroyed or broken it is often repaired and is much stronger in the end. Whether this be physical or psychological. A broken heart is stronger when it heals, and a broken bone is the same. Perhaps it is the same with everything else as well. :D

Lillith

Seth-Ra
04-15-2010, 10:02 PM
I totally agree with you Seth-Ra. I'm not quite on the same level as you, but I've found in my short life that when something is destroyed or broken it is often repaired and is much stronger in the end. Whether this be physical or psychological. A broken heart is stronger when it heals, and a broken bone is the same. Perhaps it is the same with everything else as well. :D

Lillith

Indeed you are right, same principle applies in most arts, from alchemy to martial arts. :)

As for "levels" - patience and discipline combined with practice and study, and we all move forward. :)



~Seth-Ra

MarkostheGnostic
05-14-2010, 12:13 AM
http://kaganof.com/kagablog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/lilith.jpg