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Awani
04-24-2010, 11:11 AM
It is not the human. Not if we are talking peace and harmony. Perhaps all the things animals lack we need to lack. We suffer from it.

When animals live free from influence by humans they enjoy themselves. Sure there is death in the wild, and fear, but there is also a simplicity. An appreciation of existence that is lost with intelligence.

Let's pretend we believe in Darwin, then the most fit to survive go onwards and multiply... but in the human world the fittest don't survive, the greediest does, the dumbest and the most cunning. It's backwards. It is not the peaceful or the wise... they are a minority. There decendents can't match the number of morons pouring out of wombs every second.

:cool:

Zephyr
04-24-2010, 11:46 AM
I always felt that the loftiest life-form, spiritually speaking, was the lichen.
Pure patience. If you were to terraform a planet, the first thing you would do is introduce lichen, then wait for a hundred or a thousand years....
*Z*

LeoRetilus
04-24-2010, 12:07 PM
I very much like this idea of lichen, in fact I was just recalling an experience this evening with it. I had been in the wilderness for a while after being halfway out of my gourd brought on by a shamanic experience. You see when the tundra is thawed out sometimes the most secure place to step is on a patch of lichen, however every time I stepped on one I could hear a very sharp and sure scream, as if I had just snuffed out a whole village of people with a bomb that was my foot,... at any rate with in the next few hours I had been thoroughly convinced and remain so to this day , that there is a very potent lifeform/force alive in green lichen. And the experience was so permanently ingrained in my psyche that I now watch where I step, although I did put some pressure on some with my foot one day to see if I could still hear the shrieks.

However on the subject of the highest life form I was contemplating this also recently and came to the conclusion that such a life form would need nothing nor want nothing, because the simple act of desire you see reflects a quintessential imbalance and when a thing is perfectly balanced it wants/need nothing. And this requesite condition I do not believe to be achievable in the current human form, such as desires make up most of man's experiences, the problem is with the fleshy shell that requires food, clothing, shelter and car insurance and the mind that vehemently pursues individuality, attention and desires carnal.

Seth-Ra
04-24-2010, 05:55 PM
In martial arts we are taught to learn the kata (forms/techniques) all to forget the kata - learn it to forget it. (intellect converted to instinct)
No living thing needs nothing, whether its a single celled organism, or a rock/metal, it is always needing to progress farther then what it currently is, and in the meantime, needs conditions to keep it sustained. (like food, water etc...)

For most things, there is a price for their life to be sustained, and the price is death. Something must die for you to eat, whether plant or animal. Bacteria that comes in your water, or in the air as you breathe are killed by your immune system - subtle life being converted to the stronger being.

In the wild, there is no intelligence, only instinct - if a great ape needs to get the termites out of the log, obviously grab a twig and get them out - learned behavior taught by parents, all equating to instinct of the species. (collectively due to learned behavior of the past still being taught - integrated into their way of life.)
So they have no intelligence as we know it, are quick to fight, quick to hide outa fear, quick to steal from an opposing tribe or being etc...etc... it is due to their instinct to live. We are in a more "sheltered" version of that, our instinct is to learn and improve our intellect, due to learned behavior of what society tells us (go to school, learn this, this, this, and this, and if you dont, youre an idiot...etc...etc..) and so we disconnect a lot from our "animal" or "base" instinct, and go with our intellectual instinct - this gives us the ability to step back and say "Hey, im needy... i must depend on other things, other people, and other organisms, to supply my needs to sustain myself." and with that in mind, we can begin to integrate the fact that, they need also, they just dont see it as we see it. They are base instinct, we are intellect-driven, but if we can see that, then we can attempt to merge the 2 together, connect with the good of the instinct, the part that listens to the flows of nature, while stepping out of it with intellect so as to keep the power of Understanding, and somewhere in that marriage of thoughts, understand that we are the One in the All, and as such, dependent on the All for our needs, just as the All is dependent on us for its needs. (for even the bad behavior of fools and the wicked, are needed as fires to prompt change, and fertilizer for the beings after them. ;) )

Once the flow is understood, then we "need" nothing, for we can be content and know that all that we need, we already have, for it is the nature of the flow to provide it to us, as we provide it, so there is no need to consciously worry, or need, or want - simply be and be happy. :)

Most people are in the place where their "drive" for their wants is what is pushing them forward, and thats ok, at some point they will grow out of it and harmonize, or they will burn out and fuel those after them - all in all, the Highest Lifeform (aside from God imo) is Nature as a collective, both instinct, and intellect, balanced to understanding and harmony/contentment. :)

Philippians 4: 11-13
I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength. - NIV.

:)


~Seth-Ra

lillith93
04-27-2010, 12:34 AM
in the human world the fittest don't survive, the greediest does, the dumbest and the most cunning. It's backwards. It is not the peaceful or the wise... they are a minority. There decendents can't match the number of morons pouring out of wombs every second.

Deviadah, you are assuming that the wise and the peaceful are the fittest. There is a difference between fittest and best, and survival of the fittest doesn't always encourage the best qualities. The fittest are dumb, greedy, and cunning. The reason they're the fittest is because of those qualities. They don't care about anyone but themselves, and so they survive. The peaceful and the wise care for others though, and they do not wish to fight or have confrontations. So they are strong, and they are definitely the best, but they are not the fittest. I would not use the word fittest for anything that describes the best. In my dictionary fittest simply means the one who knows how to survive, while the strongest is the one who knows how to live.

Just food for thought :o

Lillith

LeoRetilus
04-27-2010, 12:57 AM
I think the subject here, on the Highest Lifeform would have to deal inevitably with perfection. It is what nature is trying to attain, all those lower lifeforms that you guys site are not perfect because they need, they need to take from others to survive, much like people do. A perfect being would take from a higher source. Such lower lifeforms nature has decreed that the fittest survive, thus, the theory of natural selection. But ultimately the culmilation of what nature has intended is to create is a perfect being, and thus consciousness and awareness was born in man, this is what separates man from the common beast that roams upon the earth, instinct is the mode of survival for lower lifeforms, intelligence and awareness is that of the higher, this awareness was given to man so that he could contemplate his place in the universe and look for this higher source, this is what the volumes and scores of books the philosophers have written about have contemplated. So that they could answer the eternal question....Why? It is this causality, it is this purpose that drives man to learn, to understand, to be more. If mankind ever gets to such a place before he destroys himself, which he will have to do as a whole, you will see all wars and struggles for imagined power will come to an end and he will live in peace and harmony with the universe. Animals are not perfect because they live in a world of cause and effect, causality at its quinetessence is the desire for balance which is not possible in a world of opposing polarizing forces, good-evil, light-dark, hot-cold. The Middle Pillar is the only way, the most direct path to perfection. You see before the big bang or whatever the event that was that put everthing in motion also separated unity and singularity which was God into all these polarizing forces and created all this material universe. Ultimatley the universe will cool and all polarizing forces will reunite to achieve balance and unity once again and everything, the world as you know it, will cease to be, as it collapses and returns to singularity, where everything is in the same state of rest and equilibrium ,perfection. Man can hasten this state of equilibrium within himself by meditation, through the quiteing and stillness of the mind, where all thoughts and desires melt away, and he is in a state of perfect being and rest.

lillith93
04-27-2010, 01:10 AM
...lower lifeforms that you guys site are not perfect because they need, they need to take from others to survive, much like people do. A perfect being would take from a higher source.

If this is the case then plants are the perfect life form (with the exception of the few carnivorous plants). They are the only life forms that are completely dependent on what they can get from higher sources. We all start out that way, but the only thing that remains that way is plants. Plants are also the most vulnerable, while also being the fittest. Most people do not consider plants when they speak of predominant species, but I ask you to look around you. What is the most common life form around you? If your not in the city or the middle of a desert(and even then you'll find cacti more often than you will anything else) then you will see green and green and more green. Plants are the only living thing that can populate like that, survive without taking from lower sources, and remain peaceful at all times (once again with the exception of the carnivorous plants).

More food for thought ;)

Lillith

LeoRetilus
04-27-2010, 01:18 AM
Yes perhaps, and that why agree with the idea of lichen, but one small problem here with this hypothesis is that plants do not have a consciousness, they are not self-aware. God is pure consciousness, pure awareness, this is how man was cast in Gods image. God doesn't need to eat, even plants eat from the sun, which is in its self in a great state of imbalance, eventually it too will cool and all plants that receive sustenance from it will die. But, consciousness survives the material world, it is what is left when your body returns to dust. So contemplate your mortality it is the first step to a great realization. And do not wait till you are on your death bed to do it. Do it while you are young and have your faculties about you to do something about it.

Seth-Ra
04-27-2010, 01:35 AM
I pose the question here: why does a life-form have to be plant, animal, or even mineral? Are these not but the same as an organ in the life-form that is Nature? How can any of these therefore be the highest, when they all are connected to one another just as blood vessels and nerves are all connected to the same body? Is the brain any better then the stomach, or the hand more important then the foot? Are animals superior to plants or minerals, do not even bacteria rely on the right climates and energy signatures?

So then, how can a question be raised about the "highest life form" when (aside from God, again imo) Nature as a whole is - it is self-sustained by its own energies, always breaking down and recreating itself, a true Ouroboros.
Is not our goal for the All to reconnect with the One? Isnt it first and foremost our goal though to realize we are All a One within the One, a microcosmic piece of the overall Macrocosm, and thus all is the highest form, since all is the same form - One Being.

This brings me back to my original post, to be content with our place in the "body" that is the One, and in doing so, removing need, connecting and being connected. :)


~Seth-Ra

lillith93
04-27-2010, 01:41 AM
Not all plants live off of sunlight, and I never said they don't have a consciousness. Personally I think everything has a consciousness, but some not on the same level as others. I believe plants could possibly have the highest level of consciousness, and we wouldn't know a thing about it because we're not plants.

As for God being pure consciousness I only have one thing to say. If you have met God, seen him with your own eyes, spoken to him with your own lips, heard him with your own ears, touched him with your own hands, then you would be able to say that you knew god was pure consciousness.

Sincerely,
Lillith

LeoRetilus
04-27-2010, 01:58 AM
If you have met God, seen him with your own eyes, spoken to him with your own lips, heard him with your own ears, touched him with your own hands, then you would be able to say that you knew god was pure consciousness.

Sincerely,
Lillith

None of those things have anything to do with God or consciousness, your senses deprive you of the truth and through them you will never come to know God. You must expand your consciousness past what your senses tell you, that is why people go into sweat lodges and sensory deprivation chambers and ingest substances such as DMT. Unfortunelty, no one can tell you what God is, it is something you have to experience it for yourself, something that comes with age and understanding, many here are still children. Help lies in the common experiences of people like Walter Russel and other people even like deviadah and others who have had similiar near death experiences and others who have been given glimpses so that they could return to us and show us the way, which will take a lifetime to put what they have experienced into human words, because as a whole we lack the vocabulary to properly explain it.

lillith93
04-27-2010, 02:03 AM
None of those things have anything to do with God or consciousness, your senses deprive you of the truth and through them you will never come to know God. You must expand your consciousness past what your senses tell you, that is why people go into sweat lodges and sensory deprivation chambers and ingest substances such as DMT. Unfortunelty, no one can tell you what God is, it is something you have to experience it for yourself, something that comes with age and understanding, many here are still children. Help lies in the common experiences of people like Walter Russel and other people even like deviadah and others who have had similiar near death experiences and others who have been given glimpses so that they could return to us and show us the way, which will take a lifetime to put what they have experienced into human words, because as a whole we lack the vocabulary to properly explain it.
I did not mean to literally use your senses, I meant it figuratively. If you have been in the presence of God and been able to tell that he is pure consciousness then you have completed a task no other man could. You've described the indescribable.

My point is you can't put a form on something you can't describe. The sensory was purely example.

Lillith

solomon levi
04-27-2010, 07:57 PM
I think the word "highest" is confusing.
What's wonderful about being human is our span, our breadth.
A lichen, for example, will probably never be able to make a gun and shoot
another lichen... but a human can do that and be an enlightened being.
We encompass the low and the high.

If the highest can only experience highness without lowness, then that is a limitation, no?
What's the point of free will if we can't blow up people? :D
I'm making light of it, but you see what I'm saying. :)

Seth-Ra
04-27-2010, 08:24 PM
I think the word "highest" is confusing.
What's wonderful about being human is our span, our breadth.
A lichen, for example, will probably never be able to make a gun and shoot
another lichen... but a human can do that and be an enlightened being.
We encompass the low and the high.

If the highest can only experience highness without lowness, then that is a limitation, no?
What's the point of free will if we can't blow up people? :D
I'm making light of it, but you see what I'm saying. :)

I certainly find value in that logic. :D
Im a martial artist, i love sparing and beating the crap out of my friends and especially enemies (that doesnt happen often anymore... seems ive scared them all with threats of transmuting them into single-celled organisms...) and ive often told my friends and family that in Heaven, even though i dont need to fight, im sooo gonna spar with Michael, the archangel, and the strongest warrior angel, and my idea of it goes something like:

*sword - clang, clang, clang*
Me - "Oohh feather!" *holds up feather that was clipped off* :p

Hehehehe. I to make light of such, but i agree in the value of breaking down, and this gets close to connecting with the perfection thread, o highest would be an end also, thus no more breaking down, which in my present mind, almost sounds like no more fun. ;)


~Seth-Ra