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leningrad
05-26-2010, 10:08 AM
Here is a list of quotes on the Forbidden Letters to Philip Gardiner that explain the deeper level of the Bible. The secrets about the Kingdom of God are about alchemy. I would love to have your opinion on those quotes.


'The language of the alchemist is allegorical. Lead (Pb) (mortal body) is turned into Gold (Au) (immortal body). Lead (Pb) is chosen, because if it breaks, it is silver white for a moment, and then turns black. Decay. Mortality. Gold (Au) is chosen, because nothing can touch Gold. Immortality. In classical alchemy the language is chemical, in biblical alchemy it is agricultural (The parabels of Jesus on the Kingdom within).'[Magnus Strom on the Forbidden Letters]


Christ is a microcosmic Stone(omnipresent/so also present in your body!): The Living Stone of Transmutation of 1 Peter 2:4. That stone starts the fire of alchemy: Kundalini. Here we go.


In his 1945 Festschrift for Gustav Senn, Carl Jung said that the Stone of Alchemy was ‘a great embarrassment to the alchemist, for since it had never been produced, no one could say what it really was.’ It was said it was ‘born from a living thing’ and ‘extracted from man,’ and ‘its connection with immortality was attested from very early times,’ but, again, ‘no one could say what it really was.’

For Jung the most probable hypothesis was, that that stone represented ‘a psychic experience.’ This suggests that he indeed missed ‘the deeper level of alchemy and thereby of resurrection.’
[de Renzi, Fenelon, de la Censerie]


I too have approached several alchemists about the Letters, and they all have been in favour of them; that what is being divulged in them is true. One said that the secrets of Alchemy are no longer secret. Simple as that.” [Gary Osborn on July 12 2007]



Because through the Forbidden Letters we know now that the Stone of Transmutation is indeed a real stone. That it…

‘…grows from flesh and blood…’[Jung]

…that it…

‘…is produced about where the liver is…’[The Paris 4]

…and that it is…

‘…even pointy and about the size of a child’s fist.’[The Paris 4]

That it…

‘…ignites the Kundalini-fire…’[The Paris 4]

… and that the Phoenix is a metaphor for the alchemist in that fire.


'By the power of that Stone, the Phoenix (human body in Kundalini) burns to ashes, but the ashes quickly restore him to life again.'[Wolfram von Eschenbach on the Grailstone in his poem The Parzival]



Following this thread, we found evidence that Alchemy is a demonstration of the physics at work in the galactic core [which resides in our microcosm, according to the Paris 4/Jonathan Rice].The true inner core of Alchemy appears in this light as the ability to apply the physics of creation to the task of personal immortality.’ [Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges]



And this is very important too: if you produce that stone and were consumed and reproduced through that fire, you will achieve individual and physical immortality, and nothing less. Something for the End of Time therefore. Who ever died was not an alchemist and did not produce the stone.


Reading the Forbidden Letters, all of a sudden the mystery seems solved why Kundalini-awakenings in the past didn't lead to physical lightbodies and physical immortality. And why, in teachings on alchemy, that lightbody was gradually turned into an after-death-body and physical immortality into soul-immortality or a prolonged life. (Only certain Tamil schools still stick to their teachings on physical immortality.) - Because a Kundalini-awakening is not yet the Work of the Sun. You apparently need the
whole thing. To produce that stone, to be decapitated, to have that wheel raised in the head and to descend into the earth. All the things described in the Great Work of Alchemy apparently have to happen to you.(...) The Kundalini-awakening will be a vital part of the Great Work, but on itself without a doubt only a sub-atomic phenomenon, although a potentially extremely dangerous one."[Forum]


By the way, your man is a gay man. Born on the 17th of January. In possession of that very special balance in microcosmic male and female forces. A balance never possessed by heterosexual men. And your stone is Christ (He who is near me is near the fire, and he who is near the fire is near the Kingdom). Also: 1 Peter 2:4.


'It has escaped most people that the Divine Sex leading to the Alchemical Wedding is sex between the inner male and female, and that it has, therefore, nothing to do with heterosexual sex. In the words of Otto Reich: 'male and female belong together. But not in bed.' [Günter Preis in an email to me in May 2008/ presented with permission by both Preis and Reich/ emphasis added]


‘In view of the recognized frequency of this phenomenon [of homosexuality], its interpretation as a pathological perversion is very dubious. The psychological findings show that it is rather a matter of incomplete detachment from the hermaphroditic archetype, coupled with a distinct resistance to identify with the role of a one-sided sexual being. Such a disposition should not be adjudged negative in all circumstances, in so far as it preserves the archetype of the Original Man, which a one-sided sexual being has, up to a point, lost.’ [Carl Jung “Concerning the Archetypes and the Anima Concept,” CW 9i, par. 146./italics by me]


It has been proposed by the Paris 4, although with reservations [see footnote 1], that only certain homosexuals [see footnote 2] possess the necessary balance of the microcosmic male and female [see footnote 3] to safely conduct the forces of resurrection[see footnote 4]. Resurrection being phase one of the Great Work of Alchemy: the furnace of Kundalini. A work serving deification of a human being from within, and possibly, through such a human being then, of all of creation in the end too, if creation is in reality microcosmic, and the world hence…

‘… my projection.’ [Schopenhauer]


This is intriguing, homosexuality being a requirement for apotheosis, since so little seems known about the cause of homosexuality. Because in spite of the fact that…

‘… the accumulation of evidence from independent laboratories across the world has shown that the biological differences between gay and straight people cannot be ignored…’ [Wilson and Rahman in Born Gay/BG hereafter]

… and we also know that…

‘…sexual orientation is largely determined by the time of birth, partly by genetics, but more specifically by hormonal activity in the womb arising from various sources…’[BG]

…it remains a mystery…

‘…how homosexuality could survive in the face of evolutionary forces*, especially given its genetic component.’ [BG]

In their brain…

‘…gay men are found to be more like women, and lesbians show similarities to men.’ [BG] The brain of gay men and lesbian women…

‘…seems to be cross-sex shifted in certain respects, more than those of heterosexuals.’ [BG]


Summarizing the resurrection.

1978 : Pope John Paul (de labore solis = of the work of the sun) comes to power. During his reign 90% of the work of the sun in our gay man is taking place.

March 1986 : testicle-pain starts (the work of the sun starts)

July 1986 : testicle-pain is at his height and stays at his height till a about a week after the resurrection (September 4 1986)

End of august till September 4 1986 : our gay man becomes a child. That is, psychologically during certain minutes. During those minutes, and to his own surprise, he even produces a child’s voice. (pupulus nudus means the naked young boy and this reminds us of the words of Jesus too: you must become like a little child again if you want to enter the Kingdom of God.)

September 4 1986 (little after midnight ’silentio noctis’ ( in the silence of the night): resurrection.

a) Our man is on the floor on his back. He had his eyes closed during the whole resurrection. A ‘thread’ (very thin) is closing around his neck. The head is decapitated by that ‘thread’.



b) The stone is produced about where the liver is. The stone ignites the Kundalini fire (the fire can actually be heard) and starts to move about, increasingly violently. Fire getting stronger. Arms and legs break into pieces.

c) The snake is driven out. Our friend doesn’t know where it went. Up the spine, but after that: no clue. (Into the earth?)

d) The wheel starts to spin and is raised to the forehead.

e) One starts to descend into the earth. After 2 minutes our man ‘fell asleep’ or passed out in another hypnagogic way. Hypnagogic, because he couldn’t remember that moment the morning after. If you lose consciousness you remember. So he ‘fell asleep’.

f) 10.30 in the morning. He woke up. Coccyx and back of the head firmly attached to the floor. As said before, it took him about 30 minutes to free himself.

g) September 5 1986 : the top-chakra opens.[The Paris 4]



... like the authors of those letters do. What’s more, all the mysteries of alchemy seem solved. From the ludus puerorum to the decapitation, and from the role of the stone to the alchemist having to visit the center of the earth. Everything fits, and fits neatly. Even the Phoenix is explained, being a metaphor for the human body consumed and recomposed in kundalini-fire.’



For you will remember too that in certain grail-lore heads are taken of and replaced by other heads. Now, we are not talking about the head of flesh to be taken of. That would be lethal ofcourse. It is the microcosmic, subtle head, interwoven in the head of flesh that is taken of and replaced after the fire by a new subtle head (the Christ).


We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts. The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he’s doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.

It will be more than clear to you now that nothing ‘Christian’ has happened in the year 33. Let alone something crucial. The acts of Jesus are as fictional as the acts of Parzival.[The Paris 4]



Anyone who thinks that the Paris 4 Letters are a fraud or a forgery is simply not paying attention.”
[Jay Weidner]



14.

“Nonetheless, the real history of the world seems, in verba Jungi, to be ‘the progressive incarnation of the deity’. When Jung spoke of this incarnation though, he was speaking of a gradual one, and of the masses, where he should have spoken of the existence of a sudden one in the individual, the alchemist.” [JRA]

15.

“If the testimony of the Paris 4 is true, and I have no reason to assume it isn’t, are we then living in the ‘Latter Days’? Petrus Bonus, who still thinks one is to be resurrected from a grave by the way, Petrus Bonus tells us that the old philosophers discerned the Last Judgement in the germination and birth of the Stone of Alchemy, the agent to the Kingdom of God.” [JRA]

16.

“This is what the Kingdom of God is like: a man scatters seed on the ground. Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how.” [Gospel according to Mark]

17.

“[That Kingdom] grows quite the way Jesus tells us it grows; like a plant, in the body, with the full grown chakra’s as the flowers in the end.” [The Paris 4]

18.

“The Paris 4 confirm that that seed sprouts and grows by itself. They tell us their gay man had no active part in his Work of the Sun. It was all done by the inner alchemist.” [JRA]

19.

“All by itself the soil produces grain. First the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come.” [Mark]

20.

“But where does all this leave us, ‘ordinary’ people, not having been decapitated by Kali Ma? Are we the tares from Matthew 13 perhaps?” [JRA]

21.

“The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

The servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field [on September 4th 1986/Fox]? From whence then hath thy field tares? He said unto them, an enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” [Matthew]

22.

“Because every tree [i.e. spine and brain/Fox] that does not bear good fruit [i.e. chakra’s/Fox] will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” [Matthew]

23.

“Without a parable he didn’t speak to them; but privately, to his own disciples, he explained all the things.” [Matthew]

24.

“It is clear that the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven are about alchemy. - But ‘why secrets?’(Nietzsche)” [Wood]

25.

“For whosoever hath [i.e. lightbody] , to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables.” [Matthew]

26.

“Is Spitzer right then when he claims that ‘a metaphysical theory is bogus, if that theory tells us that we are all, potentially or not, children or priests of God, and equal before Him?’ Or are we to trust the CE2 who wouldn’t be surprised ‘if the gold of immortality is fetched by some for the benefit of many?’”



In other words, Gardiner and Osborn had failed to see that the Elixir of Life is produced in the lightbody of the victorious alchemist (the Shining One), i.e. man deified. That it is a purely microcosmic elixir therefore, and not a macrocosmic one, meaning one mixed in a skull for instance and presented to some patient. In yet other words: the Elixir of Life is not swallowed, it is exclusively produced and consumed in the body of a triumphant alchemist.[de la Censerie on the Forbidden Letters]



[29]

‘In the human body is concealed a certain metaphysical substance which needs no medicament, being itself an incorrupt medicament.’ [Gerard Dorn]

[30]

‘The Naassenes considered Naas, the serpent, to be their central deity. (…) Eden, they said, is in the brain.’ [Carl Jung]

[31]

‘The Sethians, Hippolytus says, compared the Father with the cerebrum and the Son with the cerebellum and spinal cord.’ [Carl Jung]



19.

“You will be given ‘the right to eat from the tree of life [spine and brain/Bernier] that is in the garden of God,’[Revelation 2] and ‘of the hidden manna.’[Ibid] A purely microcosmic manna, dispensed by the human brain. After all, ‘Eden is in the brain,’ (Carl Jung quoting the Naassenes) and ‘the Father compared with the cerebrum.’ (Carl Jung quoting the Sethians)”

20.

“The nuptial union in the thalamus [Greek for inner chamber or bridal chamber/Bernier] signifies the hieros gamos (the alchemical wedding of the microcosmic male and female) and this in turn is the first step towards incarnation, towards the birth of the saviour who, since antiquity, was thought of as the filius solis et lunae (the son of the Sun and Moon), the filius sapientiae (the son of Wisdom), and the equivalent of Christ.” [Carl Jung]

21.

“The word thalamus (bridal chamber) is Greek. We are told that the thalamus received its name in the second century from Claudius Galen, an Ionian Greek anatomist and Christian who had studied at the Great School in Alexandria, Egypt and was a doctor at the gymnasium attached to the local sanctuary at Asklepios.” [Gary Osborn]



One of the respondents nevertheless went so far as to say that…

‘… the Forbidden Letters by the Paris 4 are the conclusion to the mysteries of alchemy.’



‘You have the energy of the sun in you, but you keep knotting it up at the base of your spine.’
[Ibn Rumi]



In short, my friend, build a temple [meaning a Lightbody/Hume] from a single stone.’ [The alchemist Zosimos of Panopolis]


Within the visible body there resides a spiritual body which Boehme compares to an ‘oil’ which must be set on fire.’[Aniane]

‘And at night, Isis (’who belonged to the cosmology of Heliopolis’ [Baring and Cashford]) placed the child in a fire to burn away all that was mortal in him.’[Baring and Cashford]

‘Texts about ‘burning Horus’ and his salvation are extant in various Egyptian and Greek documents.’[Burkert]

‘Throughout the Middle Ages, pilgrims visited Heliopolis to view the tree in whose shade, according to the Christian texts, the Holy Family rested on their flight from King Herod. [Quirke]

‘You are born once with a soul and a body, and a third agent, spirit, can come in to save that body and soul by making it immortal in the Work of the Sun.’[Hanno Temming in his article on the Forbidden Letters at World Mysteries]

‘Through baptism by fire, man, who was before dead, is made a living soul.’[Aurora Consurgens]

‘Let the dead bury the dead.’[Jesus in Matthew]

‘I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.’[John the Baptist in Matthew]

‘Nothing depends on baptism with water. Baptism with water only symbolizes the fact that we were born through water, meaning biologically born. We need two births to be saved. The one through water which gives us our spine and brain, the Tree of Life, that infrastructure for the Work of the Sun, and a second one through fire, when God plants our Tree of Life in that fire ‘to stand everlasting.’ So it’s silly to say that you need to be baptized. You need to be biologically born through water, and to be born again though fire. That fire being the alchemical one called Kundalini, that water being the water of the womb. People who practise baptism and think anything depends on that confuse the symbol with the real thing.’[Fenelon]

‘Whoever is near me, is near the fire, whoever is far from me, is far from the Kingdom.’[Jesus in Thomas]

‘Kundalini either saves or destroys.’[de Beaumont]

‘You Christ, who are all fire, have mercy on me.’[Ephraem the Syrian]



In the 1920’s Sir Flinders Petrie ensured the British public that the Great Pyramid was nothing but ‘a tomb erected for Cheops, soured as he had been by the excesses of the followers of Piazzi Smyth who tried to turn that pyramid into a house of biblical prophecies.’[Oderberg] - But, there is in fact no indication ‘that anyone was ever interred in that pyramid.’[Oderberg]

The designer engineer Olaf Tellefsen evaluated the Great Pyramid as ‘unique, a special case, indicating superior knowledge, not manifest in other pyramids.’[Oderberg] The well-shaft for instance is ‘completely without meaning if that pyramid, equidistant from the pole and the center of the earth, is a tomb.’[Oderberg] And that shaft would of course be explained just fine if it enabled the adept to symbolically enter the earth; a key-phase in the alchemical process.



Most people are unfamiliar with the fact that the macrocosmic capstone of a pyramid, the pyramidion, represents the microcosmic Benben-stone, a.k.a. the Grail, or Philosopher’s Stone: the agent to the alchemical fire of Kundalini. Indeed ancient Egypt possessed ‘amazing kernels of alchemy’[Wedekind], especially if we look at the Resurrection. When, for example, the Paris 4 tell us that their man is ‘on the floor on his back,’ that a thread of some metaphysical kind closed ‘around his neck,’ decapitating him, and that a fire was then ignited by virtue of a stone, enveloping his body in flames, then we are immediately reminded of the hypocephalus of ancient Egypt:

‘A hypocephalus is a small diskshaped object that was placed under the head of the deceased. Because the ancient Egyptians believed it would magically cause the head and the body to be enveloped in flames and radiance, making the deceased divine.’[Wikipedia]


Alchemy is of course not about dead corpses. It is performed through a living Tree of Life (spine and brain) in a, hence, living body. And once that body through the Great Work is purified, ‘its union can take place with the astral body, whereby the Enochdianus emerges, the celestial man, i.e., man endowed with divine forces, which by right belong to man, because, in the words of Paracelsus, ‘heaven is man, and man is heaven, and all men one heaven, and heaven only one man.’[Pagel]

Source:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters1.htm

You have

1) The Forbidden Letters part 1 & 2 by the Paris 4

2) The Newletters 1- 4 by the Paris 4

and 3) Over 50 response- articles on those Letters. (in the left list)

kindred_soul
05-26-2010, 05:05 PM
Leningrad,

This is beautiful; I had a read of these letters a few months ago and am definitely in agreement with what is being said here.

As all true alchemists know, symbolism is the language of our work; why - I feel mainly because the philosophic fire is a scorcher that can destroy the unsuspecting and unprepared. It can transform lead to gold, but can also destroy lead.

My explorations into all of this actually occurred gradually and by mistake, after a sudden breakdown of everything in my life. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I would not divulge these secrets to the unprepared. I am in two minds about the manner in which some authors have decided to do this; personally, I am unqualified to deal with an individual who loses their mind as a result of it and the karmic penalty is probably not worth the risk. Furthermore, I am a firm believer that those who are ready and willing to find it [i.e. Truth], WILL find it; there is no doubt in my mind about that. Alchemy is merely one aspect of this immortal pursuit of the true nature of reality; we must NEVER forget this. Truth is God. Not immortality. Not diamond bodies. But Truth.

As for homosexuality being a major contributing factor towards success in alchemical operations, I agree that this is true in cases where the homosexual in question has predominantly female qualities. In such an individual, the alchemical work will arouse male tendencies within them and their already present female tendencies will then unite; the divine matrimony - voila.

However, this is also possible in heterosexuals who succeed in finding the female within themselves - the way of doing this has to be discovered by the alchemist himself.

Neverthless, in both homosexuals and heterosexuals, human sexuality in all its forms must be transcended. I am led to believe that any alchemist who insists on holding onto their human instincts when it is time to move on to higher levels, will never complete the Magnum Opus.

As for the End of the World predictions, I am still unsure about these, though am open to suggestions of a possible geomagnetic reversal; the consequences of this - who knows? It shouldn't matter really - the alchemists' work must continue!!

Best,

Kindred Soul

kindred_soul
05-26-2010, 05:21 PM
Then again, we must not forget that there have been some very brilliant female alchemists.

The crux of it all is this: regardless of sexuality, gender or sex, King and Queen must unite so that the phoenix can rise. Both physically [ within one body] as well as philosophically [ so that sexuality is altogether transcended].

Regards,

Kindred Soul

Andro
05-26-2010, 06:51 PM
To possibly enhance the discussion, I'm inserting a quote from another related thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1197):


I think some of the famous alchemists were homosexual or at least bi...

Maybe this thought, along with the above provided quoted material, may shed a little more light on the involved implications.

Other than that, I've already clarified my views in the other related thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1197), so I guess I'll sit this one out for a while...
But it would greatly please me to find out that there are other non-hetero aspiring alchemists among us at this forum - in which case, please come forward and share your perspectives.

I am personally much less interested in listening to exclusively hetero views on the homosexuality/alchemy connection, which to me is as clear as clear daylight.

Nevertheless, everyone's perspective is most welcome, of course :)

Ghislain
05-27-2010, 05:57 AM
Have you tried translating the 16 words at all?

I had a go and most is untranslatable using online translators and I have no knowledge of Latin so...


Let us just help you a little bit more. With a latin text. Composed in the year 1170 AD.

urbs transrhenana anno DCCXI. pupulus nudus silentio noctis conflagrat. hic incipit labor solis. gloriam olivae expectamus.

And remind you of the two last Latin verses in the list of Maleachi (the Popes). de labore solis followed by gloria olivae. Followed, naturally, because a shining Tree of Life (spine and brain), the olive tree, is the product of 'the work of the sun', as you will know. Trees well hidden for the moment of course. Source (http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters1.htm)

I looked on the net to see if others had tried and found these...


"A city beyond the Rhine in the year DCCXI* burns one silent night, its populace defenseless. Here begins the work of the sun (the day's work). We await/expect the glory of the olive wreath." Source (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060613190959AATRxc0)


"The city over the Rhine in the year 711. The naked young boy catches fire in the silence of the night. Here starts the work of the sun. We're awaiting the glory of the olive tree."Source (
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archive/index.php/t-76777.html)

:) None the wiser.

Ghislain

leningrad
05-27-2010, 08:22 AM
Dear Kindred Soul,

Thank you for your elaborate reaction. Allow me to comment.


Leningrad,

This is beautiful; I had a read of these letters a few months ago and am definitely in agreement with what is being said here.

Me too.


As all true alchemists know, symbolism is the language of our work; why - I feel mainly because the philosophic fire is a scorcher that can destroy the unsuspecting and unprepared. It can transform lead to gold, but can also destroy lead.

Lead being DNA-man. Man mortal.


As for homosexuality being a major contributing factor towards success in alchemical operations, I agree that this is true in cases where the homosexual in question has predominantly female qualities. In such an individual, the alchemical work will arouse male tendencies within them and their already present female tendencies will then unite; the divine matrimony - voila.

The Paris 4 say that only certain homosexuals possess the necessary balance of the inner male/female to safely conduct the forces of Kundalini. This balance allows the production of a lightbody that will take over DNA-man in the end. And make him immortal. In alchemical language: spirit will become flesh, flesh become spirtit.


However, this is also possible in heterosexuals who succeed in finding the female within themselves - the way of doing this has to be discovered by the alchemist himself.

Well, there is yin and yang in everyone, so 'finding' your inner female as a man would not be enough. You need a specific balance, say the Paris 4, only possessed by certain homosexuals. I think that gay man of the Letters is the Saviour of the Macrocosm, the Redeemer, and he is gay for, hence, a very good reason (because heterosexuals cannot possess a balanced inner male/female). In Jung's words:


‘In view of the recognized frequency of this phenomenon [of homosexuality], its interpretation as a pathological perversion is very dubious. The psychological findings show that it is rather a matter of incomplete detachment from the hermaphroditic archetype, coupled with a distinct resistance to identify with the role of a one-sided sexual being. Such a disposition should not be adjudged negative in all circumstances, in so far as it preserves the archetype of the Original Man, which a one-sided sexual being has, up to a point, lost.’ [Carl Jung “Concerning the Archetypes and the Anima Concept,” CW 9i, par. 146./italics by me]


Neverthless, in both homosexuals and heterosexuals, human sexuality in all its forms must be transcended. I am led to believe that any alchemist who insists on holding onto their human instincts when it is time to move on to higher levels, will never complete the Magnum Opus.

I personally conjecture that only that gay man has to transcend his sexuality. He will do that trick for others then by will once he is deified:


The Grail-keeper/Alchemist is probably a redeemer. We do not know in what way exactly, but a redeemer most likely. He becomes capable of 'transforming other beings, indeed, the enitire universe, through his limitless powers,' says Professor David Gorden White [DGW hereafter] after having spent years of studying alchemy in India.

Best,
Leningrad

leningrad
05-27-2010, 08:29 AM
Then again, we must not forget that there have been some very brilliant female alchemists.

'Whoever died was not an alchemist.'[The Paris 4]


The crux of it all is this: regardless of sexuality, gender or sex, King and Queen must unite so that the phoenix can rise. Both physically [ within one body] as well as philosophically [ so that sexuality is altogether transcended].

Regards,

Kindred Soul

This is taken from the Maria El Saft-article on the Forbidden Letters:


The gay man of the Letters nonetheless asks himself whether more alchemists could be on earth 'right now.' It would be interesting for me, as a woman, to consider the possibility here that at least one of them, if they exist, could be female.

Jay Reed Armstrong gives us reasons to be pessimistic here, reminding us of the fact 'that exactly the disciple who represents the Living Stone of Alchemical Transformation, Peter, is misogynic: 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' And the Paris 4 are worried that the microcosmic female, kundalini, might not be tolerated in the macrocosmic one.

David Gordon White gives women even more reasons to despair here, pointing out that sperm is an absolute must for alchemy too. 'Semen is the raw material and fuel of every psychochemical transformation.'[DGW] A transformation through which 'a new, superhuman and immortal body is conceived out of the mortal one.'[DGW] That semen 'has to be retained.'[DGW] According to India throughout the Work, according to Paris only during the phase of kundalini. He who is unable to retain his semen (here) 'is condemned to death.'[DGW]


In an email on the Letters to Otto Reich, Jay Gould insists that only because 'women have no sperm, doesn't mean that women can't be saved. It only means they cannot become Alchemists, meaning Solar Heroes.'[Gould/presented with permission]

So what are we to conclude here? Are women only incapable of becoming Solar Heroes, lacking testicles, lacking sperm? Or are we alchemically doomed altogether? Surely not.

If the Solar Hero is a redeemer, then these technicalities about sperm and testicles might be irrelevant. Then that Hero could 'simply' transform us through his will, thereby saving us from a sleeping kundalini, meaning death. Because 'the kundalini, when she sleeps, is identified with the kalagni, the fire of time that slowly cooks all creatures to death through the aging process.'[DGW]

And this is from the Jane and William Kaposi-article:


23.

'Semen is the raw material and fuel of every psychochemical transformation.'[David Gordon White] A transformation through which 'a new, superhuman and immortal body is conceived out of the mortal one.'[DGW] That semen 'has to be retained..'[DGW] According to India throughout the Work, according to Paris only during the phase of kundalini. He who is unable to retain his semen (here) 'is condemned to death.' [DGW] [Maria El Safti on the Forbidden Letters]




24.

'Simon Magus [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Magus ] teaches that in semen (...) there is a very small spark.' [Carl Jung]

25.

'Alchemy too has its doctrine of the Scintilla, the little soul-spark. In the first place it is the fiery center of the earth. For all things have their origin in this source.' [Carl Jung]

26.

'So what are we to conclude here? Are women only incapable of becoming Solar Heroes, lacking testicles, lacking sperm? Or are we alchemically doomed altogether? Surely not.' [Maria El Safti on the Forbidden Letters]

27.

'Women, I'm sorry, are the portal to death (nothing wrong with women because of that, of course/after all, they can't help the fact that we are mortals, as Genesis would like to suggest). Remember the Hayflick-limit. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayflick_limit ] As soon as the egg and the sperm unite the clock of death starts to tick. No redemption I'm afraid through the womb. Only death. [Forum-post on the Letters]

28.

'Hayflick-life is not life at all really. It's only a pendulum that got a push.' [Jenny Martin]

29.

'Let the dead bury the dead.' [Jesus]

30.

'But even if it's true that women can only be saved through a male alchemist and not become alchemists themselves, does not mean that women are inferior to men. Let me give an example here. Who is giving birth to the Tree of Life and the Vessel of Alchemy, meaning the human body? Exactly: women. And are men inferior to women because they can't give birth here? If you study the El Safti-article carefully, then women take care of the Vessel and men of the Work. What counts is the end-product: a salvator macrocosmi, able to redeem nature.' [Forum-post on the Letters]

31.

'The Forbidden Letters are named so because I suppose they carry around a certain animosity that gets the topic locked, ignored, and or ill treated. (...) So here are the Forbidden Letters, read them carefully, and if you will respond in this thread do so with caution.' [yuku.com]

And finally from the Paula Braun-article:


'Kundalini is the Inner Woman. Of her it is said, "What need have I of any outer woman." - ' [Mookerjee, 1966:33]

?????

leningrad
05-27-2010, 08:41 AM
To possibly enhance the discussion, I'm inserting a quote from another related thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1197):


I've seen mention of sexual alchemy- What about fetishes, or asexuality, or homosexuality? Do they fit in anywhere in Alchemy, and if so, where? If the point the physical act of the sex or the spiritual connection between a couple?

The Forbidden Letters say that the alchemist, the Living Stone (i.e. Christ) is gay and has a footfetish.

Forbidden Letters, part 2, section 11:


Let's have a closer look at the foot washing. And why? We are to reveal some more of the sexual preference of our gay man. And you'll be astonished, as we were once too.

Remember what we said about 'Adam Kadmon will give you a foot, instead of a hand.'

There is a very odd story in history. It is supposed to have originated in the first century. We were never able to trace the story in literature. And that's a weak point. But we are begging for your attention nevertheless.

How do we know about that odd story? Our secretary (the one who gives our English a last boost and sends the emails to you from public computers) had coffee at the end of the eighties with the parents of a friend of his. They were shocked because of an incident that happened on television the other night. They told that (on a evangelical) talk-show somebody told a very strange little story. It went like this: The Son of God descended from heaven, saw Adam, loved Adam, kneeled down, kissed his feet and tickled (!) his feet. End of story.

Our friend wondered how this 'gay' story could have been broadcasted by Christians, and found out that it was a live program. It couldn't be cut. We, unfortunately, are not allowed to name the country and the program, we don't want give away the home country of our secretary. You understand.

Now, keep all this in mind and let's look at the foot washing. It's only brought by 'John', who's the only one who has 'the beloved disciple'. Why did Jesus wash feet? Not for reasons of hygiene. Because the meal was over already when he started to wash the feet. And this is very important: nowhere it is told why the disciples should was feet at all. They are told to wash because Jesus is Lord, and they were servant. But why they should was in the first place, it is not explained. And John knows that too. The 'but thou shalt know hereafter' in our opinion is 2000 years later.

Here we go:

The Gospel According to Saint John
John 13: Chapter 13
13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

13:2 And supper being ended (ended !), the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. [What is 'Jesus' saying here?]

leningrad
05-27-2010, 08:47 AM
Have you tried translating the 16 words at all?

I had a go and most is untranslatable using online translators and I have no knowledge of Latin so...



I looked on the net to see if others had tried and found these...





:) None the wiser.

Ghislain

The second translation you give is correct. It is given by Magnus Strom and confirmed by my former Latin-teacher.


The Latin (urbs transrhenana...) means:

The city over the Rhine in the year 711. The naked young boy catches fire in the silence of the night. Here starts the work of the sun. We're awaiting the glory of the olive tree.

711 doesn't have to be anno Domini. Could be a.u.c. (ab urbe condita, meaning: since the foundation of the city). 711, like 1170, could mean a code for January 17th too, the date of birth of the gay man in the Letters.

Green Lion
05-27-2010, 12:42 PM
Just for information, there is a big error in the forbidden letters:
Seth and Horus were not brothers. Seth was the brother of Osiris. And Horus was the son of Osiris and Isis.
Secondly Thoth is the son of Ra and a "dwarf" stemming from a lotus in the essential ocean.
Thoth is not thus absolutely the product of a homosexual union.
The rest of letters has absolutely nothing to do with alchemy. It is a mixture between gospel and construction of a body of glory according to the taoistes traditions (badly understood) and the osirian corpus.

kindred_soul
05-27-2010, 02:54 PM
Green Lion,

If you realize that the gospels are alchemical allegories, it'll all make sense. In fact, I'm beginning to think the whole idea of a 'gay man' is an allegory too; alchemists love their symbolic logic.

I am against the notion that ONLY a homosexual can complete the Great Work - this is a completely ludicrous statement and screams of supremacy. I speak here from my own experience of the art, being heterosexual myself, and not from mere speculation. I have felt and continue to feel the flames of this 'fire that decapitates'. Allegory? Of course.

For homosexuals to claim such superiority is equally as wrong as heterosexuals doing the same. Let's not create a divide here by giving people a reason to gloat. Alchemy is an art open to all true seekers of Truth.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

Ghislain
05-27-2010, 03:47 PM
kindred_soul

Who claims what, where, why and when has no bearing on the truth.

What is is and that is that, like it or not :)

I wouldn't worry

Ghislain

Andro
05-27-2010, 04:31 PM
Actually, there is a certain practice (not mentioned in the letters) which by practical lab work can accelerate the production of an actually physical 'stone' above the Earth, which in turn becomes the precursor to the inner 'stone', IF rectified and ingested in a certain way and dosage. It does not involve vulgar gold at any stage, but it requires of the practicant to act like Mercury in order to become like Mercury.

I have been aware of this method of preparation for quite some time, but so far I've been hesitant to implement it. The process (as I know it) is fully interactive, and the practice would be of very limited value if one perceives oneself as exclusively male or exclusively female, to put it mildly. It also has nothing (or very little) to do with Taoist traditions.

The practice I refer to does NOT require retention of semen, except maybe during a certain stage of the work, if the letters are correct in this regard.

As for the stated requirement of occupying a gay male body in order to successfully complete the process, I prefer to keep my opinions to myself, mainly because they are not based on direct personal experience or observation regarding this specific Work.

I will only say that this is not by far a claim of supremacy. The letters even mention that most gays are not fit for this specific task. However, you can train hard for many years to become a great violonist (for example) - but are unlikely to go far beyond mediocrity without a compatible genetic predisposition.
Similarly, someone with the genetic predisposition for musical genius may likewise turn out to be a total loser as a consequence of not nurturing his innate potential.

The key lies not as much in genetics or spiritual desire separately, but rather in a fitting and adequate mix between the two.

We all have our different paths, and we are all perfectly equipped (genetically and spiritually) to follow our unique stars, if we could only recognize them for what they are, rather than invent something more suitable for our comfort zones or belief systems.

As with everything else, trial by fire shall be the proof of any given theory.
Some beliefs will be shattered, others may become Knowns, as is the way of things.
__________________________________________________

The letters are indeed not extremely coherent, but there is (for me) a lot to be gained from a deeper study of the content, as incoherent and chaotic as it may appear at first.
__________________________________________________

Regarding Thoth, there are various cosmogenies.

Some regard Thoth as One, Self-Begotten, and Self-Produced.

Other variations regard him as being born from the Skull of Set and also said to be born from the Heart of Ra, where both Set and Ra can be easily identified as different aspects of the same Prima Materia.

Those characters are Archetypes. Analizing them exoterically is IMO a dead end.

A homosexual union resulting in vulgar childbirth is not possible in genderized bodies.

Here we are talking of a different kind of birth, not vulgar but Philosophical.

The offspring of the Alchemist is the Alchemist himself.


Alchemy is an art open to all true seekers of Truth.

Being a Seeker, while admirable in itself, does not guarantee entrance into the Palace of Alchemy. One must also have the 'Finder's Gene', metaphorically speaking :)

leningrad
05-27-2010, 06:41 PM
Just for information, there is a big error in the forbidden letters:
Seth and Horus were not brothers. Seth was the brother of Osiris. And Horus was the son of Osiris and Isis.
Secondly Thoth is the son of Ra and a "dwarf" stemming from a lotus in the essential ocean.
Thoth is not thus absolutely the product of a homosexual union.
The rest of letters has absolutely nothing to do with alchemy. It is a mixture between gospel and construction of a body of glory according to the taoistes traditions (badly understood) and the osirian corpus.

With all due respect, but you have a lot of reading to do.

P.S.

In at least one version Thot is the product of a homosexual union.

Have to go now. See you soon.

kindred_soul
05-27-2010, 06:51 PM
Androgynous,

I really like the way you write your messages; your grasp of the language is splendid and you have a way of putting your points across [ even when you disagree] without creating animosity. Thank you for writing in this way.


Being a Seeker, while admirable in itself, does not guarantee entrance into the Palace of Alchemy. One must also have the 'Finder's Gene', metaphorically speaking

I agree with this and feel perhaps that the alchemists of today may have been practioners in their past lives who failed to complete the work for unknown reasons (e.g. unexpected death); in the words of Plato, 'knowledge is remembrance anew'. The reason I say it is open to all true seekers of truth however, is because that is how I began, and stumbled upon, or shall I say, was led to alchemy. Did it make sense right away? Yes, strangely enough. Do past incarnations have a bearing on one's ability to comprehend and apply alchemical knowledge? This I cannot answer and would have to meet all the world's practising alchemists to be able to do so.

Who else is actually experiencing the flames of this secret fire? I am, and it is mentally, physically and psychologically taxing. I'd like to hear from anyone else currently experiencing the 'baptism of fire'.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

PS: I might like to add that I have experienced the feeling of androgyny - it's the most bizarre experience in the world when it first happens. This is why I speak so confidently of the alchemist ultimately transcending sexuality (as we know it).

horticult
05-27-2010, 07:35 PM
Then again, we must not forget that there have been some very brilliant female alchemists.
Please, tell us about them. I know only Maria the Jewess, which IMHO is only a brutal joke of some Adept, & M A Atwood, but IMHO only typical female with large memory faculties to write a thick compendium.
& as I observe nature, I am also looking for some female music composers...

Andro
05-27-2010, 08:15 PM
As I've said before, we all have (and are) unique mixtures of energies which are better suited for some tasks and much less suitable for others.

This is the beauty of diversity. Not a question of who's dogmatically 'better' or 'worse', but rather a very simple question of compatibility.

The problem is that many are socially, culturally and even self-brainwashed into trying to develop skills or even personalities which are in complete disaccord with their own natures.

This usually results in self-denial and in miserable, unaccomplished lives.

Personally, I prefer to deal with individuals rather than with categorized groups, with compatibility being the key for discernment, not wholesale value judgements.

kindred_soul
05-27-2010, 09:18 PM
Horticult:

Do you really hold that low an opinion of women's intellectual capabilities ?? Discrimination, in any way, shape or form is unacceptable. What you have just written is the very reason female alchemists have had to go into hiding. You are doing to women, what the Catholic Church did to alchemists 400 years ago.

I recently qualified as a medical doctor, and in my time, have met some incredibly brilliantly talented women. Do not underestimate the opposite sex.

Just because women have in many cases not had the opportunity to present their talents, does not mean they are not as capable as men. Your observations have obviously been coloured by your discriminative stance, and are therefore likely to be a) biased b) flawed. In this case therefore, trusting your own judgement would most probably not be wise.

There are no superior sexes, races, genders or sexualities. We, especially as alchemists, must rid ourselves of such notions lest we trigger another holocaust. Sounds bizarre, I know, but all it takes is one alchemist whose ego is unchecked to wipe out 6 million people. *Hint

So please, Know Thyself. Perhaps these words of wisdom from Francis Bacon (alias, Shakespeare) may help you understand what is now known as Vedantic wisdom:

This above all:
To thine own self be true,
for it must follow as dost the night the day,
that canst not then be false to any man.


Regards,

Kindred Soul

horticult
05-27-2010, 09:49 PM
Horticult:
Do you really hold that low an opinion of women's intellectual capabilities ?? Discrimination, in any way, shape or form is unacceptable. What you have just written is the very reason female alchemists have had to go into hiding. You are doing to women, what the Catholic Church did to alchemists 400 years ago.

Could you quote me where I did it?
Or answer my original questions?
You are only yelling here nonsenses.
Discrimination is only BS newspeak.

I think that moderators have to remove this entire thread in some ridiculous category or delete it asap.

kindred_soul
05-27-2010, 09:58 PM
In your post you have:

1. Assumed that the story of Maria the Jewess is complete nonsense

2. Complete disregarded the work of Atwood as being due to nothing more than a huge memory capacity. I, on the contrary, find it a brilliant piece of work that reveals many secrets. In fact, I find it to be one of the finer alchemical treatises.

3. Pointed out that your natural philosophical researches have not beared fruit in finding sufficient female composers, hinting at a slightly mysoginistic stance.

Discrimination is only 'BS newspeak'. No Horticult; discrimination is sadly, a very real phenomenon. Are you going to claim that the holocaust is only BS newspeak also?

Request that the moderator delete my post, but why the entire thread? Do you think that the Forbidden Letters are BS newspeak too? Or does the possibility of homosexual alchemists pose a threat to your reality?

You forget that the things you say suggest many things about your frame of mind at the time. I now completely understand why alchemy was reserved 'for the few'. As for naming female adepts, I would, but fear that you may refute these with your illogical statements; I am free to answer questions when I wish.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

horticult
05-27-2010, 10:00 PM
regardless of sexuality, gender or sex, King and Queen must unite

= oxymoron

horticult
05-27-2010, 10:03 PM
In your post you have:

1. Assumed that the story of Maria the Jewess is complete nonsense

2

I am afraid that your understanding of an english text is even worse than mine, otherwise I can not figure out from which you get this resume.
& all else ditto.

horticult
05-27-2010, 10:20 PM
Here is a list of quotes on the Forbidden Letters to Philip Gardiner that explain the deeper level of the Bible. The secrets about the Kingdom of God are about alchemy. I would love to have your opinion on those quotes.
My opinion is that it has nothing with alchemy & subsequently all chimeras based on it are nonsenses.

btw communists killed MORE people than fascists!

kindred_soul
05-27-2010, 10:57 PM
Wow,

Horticult has demonstrated that he is completely and totally clueless about alchemy. This is actually pure comedy, because the fellow does not even know the first letter of this art ! Joy !

Enough said; am no longer replying to this buffoon. And this has sealed my lips even tighter. I wish we could re-open the mystery schools so that idiots like this would never be given the chance to voice their absurd speculations, then claim to 'know'.

What a complete idiot; I feel sorry for the chap.

Toodles! Perhaps horticult should stick to horticulture, and away from true alchemy. ;)

Kindred Soul


btw communists killed MORE people than fascists!

PS: It doesn't matter who killed more, you twat; killing other human beings is wrong. Full stop. And here you are attempting to justify it in the name of what you have probably misunderstood to be fascism. Your mind is truly deranged and I hope you get a full mental assessment from a top psychiatrist so you can be locked up. I really am shocked by a bumbling fool trying to justify fascism, because they only killed 5 million whilst communists killed 20 million [ random numbers ]. Shall we begin to speak of Mussolini and Hitler, because both were fascists ???? And shall we then begin to justify their political actions ??

Well, you have! But you probably have only the vaguest idea of these political systems. You picked up some word, watched some YouTube video, thought it was cool, and associated yourself with it - this, is why I feel sorry for you.

I knew fools like you in school; they spoke a lot, but when questioned, were exposed as impostors. If I was you, I would shut up.

Andro
05-27-2010, 11:08 PM
I think that moderators have to remove this entire thread in some ridiculous category or delete it asap.

I have no problem whatsoever with people expressing their points of view, but I also think that those who suggest that opinions/views not in agreement with their own should be moderated, blocked, ridiculed or removed - should IMO receive a decent dose of their own 'medicine' and not be allowed to further participate on a forum such as this one.

There are other forums, much better suited for this kind of demeanor.

I can not make this decision for the forum managers, but I can definitely make it for myself.

That's where the 'Block User' function comes in handy, as an efficient shield from the vulgar flaming of deeply disturbed despotic tendencies.

LeoRetilus
05-27-2010, 11:11 PM
Wow,

Horticult has demonstrated that he is completely and totally clueless about alchemy. This is actually pure comedy, because the fellow does not even know the first letter of this art ! Joy !

Enough said; am no longer replying to this buffoon. And this has sealed my lips even tighter. I wish we could re-open the mystery schools so that idiots like this would never be given the chance to voice their absurd speculations, then claim to 'know.

What a complete idiot; I feel sorry for the chap.

Toodles! Perhaps horticult should stick to horticulture, and away from true alchemy. ;)

Kindred Soul

PS: It doesn't matter who killed more, you twat; killing other human beings is wrong. Full stop. And here you are attempting to justify it. Your mind is truly deranged and I hope you get a full mental assessment from a top psychiatrist so you can be locked up. I really am shocked by a bumbling fool trying to justify fascism over communism. You probably have only the vaguest idea of these political systems. I knew fools like you in school; they spoke a lot, but when questioned, were exposed as impostors and fools. If I was you, I would shut up.

Becareful with the fingerpointing and the all name calling, Horticult and Green Lion are right and you'd be wise to listen to them and read some other threads of higher value in this forum, I do not rate this one very high..... mostly rubbish and nonsense,.... the formation of the body of light/glory and the osirian mysteries however perverted and misunderstood they are by the writers of those letters and those discussing them here have nothing to do with actual alchemy as it has been written about and practised for milienia, internalizing alchemy is a modern invention beginning with Jungian psychsomatic dogma, that came as a result of Mr. Jung's study of archetypes, the human psyche, and his disbelief in alchemy because of his root in the scientific world, his interpretation and what ensued was a way for the scientific world to dismiss alchemy to the realms of human fantasy and archetyptual invention and mans quintessential internal search for perfection. A man by the name of Hans Nitzel did the worldwide community of practising alchemists a great service by ammassing a library of alchemical manuscripts, in RAMS you will find 10,000 pages of alchemy and archemy and high spagyrics, nowhere in them will you find any type of nonsense relating alchemy to internalization of it, in fact quite the opposite and even to the extent that most alchemist throw animal alchemy, (which would be a stone made from human/animal excrements/blood but even in this format in any way you take it is not internalized), right out and deal solely with the stone taken from a mineral subject or the chaos itself, the aether, i.e from nowhere a tangible stone is produced.... It'd be a shame but with an attitude like that you may never know it.

kindred_soul
05-27-2010, 11:15 PM
I can't believe you can even defend this mini-Mussolini.

Right, I'm out of this forum. Alchemy is an exact science. One either understands it. Or doesn't. There is no room for speculation. Must it be reminded that the operative aspects of the art degenerated into the speculative aspects we now have today [ some may understand, but the lips of wisdom must remain sealed, except to the ears of understanding ;) ]

It is becoming very clear why the temples of initiation were so stringent in their degrees, the highest orders being reserved for those who had demonstrated, as well as other qualities, sufficient intellectual capacity; it eliminated the speculation that is so rife in this day and age, as well as the complete disrespect for what is possibly, the 'only true art'. The Art is Royal. And it is most certainly true.

I must quote Christian Rosenkreuz' crypt before I make a mad dash. In this word, are revealed the entire secrets of this art:

VITRIOL: "
Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem ("Visit the Interior Parts of the Earth; by Rectification Thou Shalt Find the Hidden Stone.") .

But as I have said before, it is that which is the most obvious that usually escapes us. I doubted alchemy until the secret fire began to consume me. That was the day I realized, in the words of Socrates, " I know, that I know 'nothing' ".

Goodbye chaps.

Kindred Soul

LeoRetilus
05-27-2010, 11:56 PM
I can't believe you can even defend this mini-Mussolini.

Right, I'm out of this forum. Alchemy is an exact science. One either understands it. Or doesn't. There is no room for speculation.

It is becoming very clear why the temples of initiation were so stringent in their degrees, the highest orders being reserved for those who had demonstrated, as well as other qualities, sufficient intellectual capacity; it eliminated the speculation that is so rife in this day and age. The Art is Royal. It is true.

I must quote Christian Rosenkreuz' crypt before I make a mad dash. In this word, are revealed the entire secrets of this art:

VITRIOL: "
Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem ("Visit the Interior Parts of the Earth; by Rectification Thou Shalt Find the Hidden Stone.") .

But as I have said before, it is that which is the most obvious that usually escapes us. I doubted alchemy until the secret fire began to consume me. That was the day I realized, in the words of Socrates, " I know, that I know 'nothing' ".

Goodbye chaps.

Kindred Soul

Man wake up, Im not defending anybody , its not about that, I'm defending a position. Your view on alchemy and those who share it do not serve those who are still searching for answers any great service, it causes them to immedietly dismiss those 10,000 pages I was refering to and seek to internalize alchemy completly. The intiatory paths and orders you speak of which I am a member and which my family has been privy to for generations only serve to ensure that the successful applicant of laboratory alchemy, possibly you, i.e the holder of the stone will know how to use it once he has it, for the forces of good. Also becuase the true subject of the stone is reltively cheap and can be acquired by all, that is why it must be spoken of in riddles and a veiled langauge as is done in those 10,000 plus pages, otherwise they would make a spectacle of our art in a very short time and throw the whole world , economic system and all into great ruin,.. I could teach a child to make the stone just as well as any man who fancies himself "enlightened" or "ascended" in any way in fact it would be alot easier in some senses because I would not be challenged by egos, and ill/pre-conceived notions. Have you ever heard or read the phrase "womans work and childs play", in what way does this imply that only a self -absorbed homosexual monk or guru could make it?

In response to your, "my way or the highway" mentality I'd suggest you take it from someone who knows that decision might be a little hasty , read the gymnasium thread , in fact I'd like to use a quote that was used on me at one time :



this will be my last post!




Predictable.

The ego would rather kill itself than give up it's imagined authority.

Do you think the only alternatives are to either push or to leave?

How about staying, sharing, and not pushing?
That would require discipline.




The Peacock's Tail has shown its True Colors.
Now I suppose we won't get our 'nation of high priests' after all.
I am devastated with loss. What an unworthy and undeserving bunch we are, indeed...


They were right and I was wrong and you maybe as well just consider that

Andro
05-28-2010, 01:11 AM
Indeed, there is no room for ego and arrogance in our quest. Unfortunately, there is still much of both here.

However, Horticult has crossed the line by explicitly suggesting censorship (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?p=9460#post9460) of views different from his own.

I find this unacceptable.

Awani
05-28-2010, 05:25 AM
Right, I'm out of this forum. Alchemy is an exact science.

Well we respect everyones opinion here... a discussion must contain all sides even if there are sides you don't like to hear about. There is an ignore function if there are certain members you can't be bothered with (go into the profile of the member you dislike, click user list and there you have an ignore option).


I am afraid that your understanding of an english text is even worse than mine...

Everyone... (and please correct me horticult if I am wrong) the above quote is often the reason Mr. H gets into heated debates... there is a language barrier. I.E. sometimes we think he is angry/mad and sometimes he thinks we are angry/mad... at least this is my experience. We can't get rid of problems like these unless we all adopt the same language worldwide!

Let's agree to disagree.

And although he (or anyone else for that matter) has requested censorship it will not happen in this case. :p

Let's continue where this thread got derailed... as for female alchemists... well I think it was, IMHO, a woman that wrote the most important alchemical sentence (apart from the Emerald Tablet):


One becomes two, two becomes three, and out of the third comes the one as the fourth. - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_Maria)

:cool:

Dendritic Xylem
05-28-2010, 05:26 AM
Still waiting on a list of female alchemists...I'm seriously interested.

I remember reading something about a respected female alchemist showing a path to some pharaoh. It involved gum...


edit- "Myriam Prophetessa ~ Her Conversation with Aros, King of Egypt"

Ab Roek
05-28-2010, 05:30 AM
The rest of letters has absolutely nothing to do with alchemy. It is a mixture between gospel and construction of a body of glory according to the taoistes traditions (badly understood) and the osirian corpus.

Although we confess that the body of glory is "built" unseen by human eyes, it would be a sin to pronounce anathema on this thread.

For those that trust only that which was made with their own hands and demand pictures from their colleagues in order to demonstrate practical achievements, I respond in kind. I would then seek your pictures (you are a serious alchemist, aren't you?) showing clearly how you formed your brain, internal organs, and your trusty human hands out of the despicable and lowly prima materia (verily!) which is to be found in the mother's womb.

Before you had hands with which to pick up and put down again (oh! what skill) your treasured glassware, were you at work with your alchemy? When you exhale your last breath (which itself stubbornly refuses to be pigeonholed, despite the attempts of the feeble-minded), what gemstones, precious metals, or spagyric tinctures will you clutch in your undeniably physical hands, in that moment going the way of all flesh, down into the darkness of avidya from whence it sprang?

Semper Fidelis
AB RK

Awani
05-28-2010, 05:35 AM
They were right and I was wrong and you maybe as well just consider that...

This shows a great evolution of your mind... few have the ego to admit such things. Bravo!

:cool:

leningrad
05-28-2010, 08:14 AM
"The gay connection to Kundalini, as brought to our attention by the Paris 4, has proven to be a very sensitive subject to some people." [Gary Osborn]



Green Lion,
I'm beginning to think the whole idea of a 'gay man' is an allegory too; alchemists love their symbolic logic.

Their 'gay man' was encoded as the Hermaphrodite. And I'm quite sure that that gay man of the Letters is not an allegory, but.... a gay man. ;)


I am against the notion that ONLY a homosexual can complete the Great Work - this is a completely ludicrous statement and screams of supremacy.

I, as a heterosexual man with a homosexual kid brother rather enjoy the turned table here (homosexuality possessing something positive in respect to heterosexuality after thousands of years of homophobia).


'The idea of hermaphroditism has been invoked to explain homosexuality..'[Lesley Hall]


'The rise of the modern homosexual identity coincides with the death of the “true" hermaphrodite.'[M. Vicinus]


'In at least the monistic tradition the same religious claim is made for homosexuality, as is made for androgyny.'[Jones/emphasis added]


'To further complicate matters, the definitions of androgynous, bisexual, hermaphrodite and homosexual all overlap in many dictionaries and reference books. For instance, the first definition of bisexual in Webster's Collegiate Dictionary is "hermaphrodite", not someone of either sex who's attracted to both. Yet the same dictionary defines the actual word hermaphrodite as:

1. . . . b. homosexual.

2. something that is a combination of diverse elements.'[Excerpt from 'Bi any other name: bisexual people speak out' - Alyson Publications, 1991, co-edited by Loraine Hutchins & Lani Kaahumanu]


'The inversion of the (male-female) roles is probably the chief psychological source for the alchemical concept of the hermaphrodite. In a man it's the anima, in a woman it's the animus.'[Jung, MC, par. 225/emphasis added][Taken from the Pedro Caz article]

I mean, the Paris 4 do not degrade heterosexuality, but what if it is true? Truth doesn't come and ask some member of a Forum: do you like me? My experience tells me that most people don't like to learn, or not too much, when they read in general. They like to see their own ideas more or less confirmed. If they are not confirmed, they simply move on to another book or article.


I speak here from my own experience of the art, being heterosexual myself, and not from mere speculation. I have felt and continue to feel the flames of this 'fire that decapitates'. Allegory? Of course.

That's not what the Paris 4 say. It's a '20-minute-job-or-so' in which one is really decapitated, albeit in the subtle body.

leningrad
05-28-2010, 08:29 AM
Alchemy is an art open to all true seekers of Truth.

I think it's an art for only one man, the Saviour of the Macrocosm. The salvator macrocosmi. He can then transform us by his, what David Gordon White calls ' limitless powers.'

Best,
Leningrad.

leningrad
05-28-2010, 08:34 AM
To all seekers: I don't think one can invite oneself to the Grail. The Grail invites you.


The original lie is that everybody is potentially a candidate for salvation. The second lie, that you can contribute to your salvation. And the third, that you can ruin it. Those three lies, highly respected around the globe, keep millions in business, and billions in darkness. [Mariette]

From the Hanno Temming article on the Letters.

leningrad
05-28-2010, 08:37 AM
Please, tell us about them. I know only Maria the Jewess, which IMHO is only a brutal joke of some Adept, & M A Atwood, but IMHO only typical female with large memory faculties to write a thick compendium.
& as I observe nature, I am also looking for some female music composers...

This is from the Rice-article:


'For the alchemist the vessel is something truly marvellous: a vas mirabile. Maria Prophetissa (a.k.a. Maria the Jewess/Rice) says the whole secret lies in knowing about the hermetic vessel. It must be completely round.' [Jung]

27.
'The body is the vessel.' [Musing]


The Work is done in a human body, not in a laboratory.

;)

leningrad
05-28-2010, 08:53 AM
I think that moderators have to remove this entire thread in some ridiculous category or delete it asap.


Request that the moderator delete my post, but why the entire thread?


'The Forbidden Letters are named so because I suppose they carry around a certain animosity that gets the topic locked, ignored, and or ill treated. (...) So here are the Forbidden Letters, read them carefully, and if you will respond in this thread do so with caution.' [yuku.com]

By the way, I am surprised that members can terrorize a thread by demanding its removal. You don't have to be here. If you don't like the thread, simply go to another. (On some Forums such a member is banned asking for a removal.)

leningrad
05-28-2010, 09:01 AM
btw communists killed MORE people than fascists!

Could you please stay on topic? And if you think the Letters are nonsense, fine, but then kindly move on to another thread. I mean, I wouldn't be found in a thread hat spelled nonsense to me.

Leningrad

leningrad
05-28-2010, 09:04 AM
Horticult:.

I recently qualified as a medical doctor.




Enough said; am no longer replying to this buffoon. And this has sealed my lips even tighter. I wish we could re-open the mystery schools so that idiots like this would never be given the chance to voice their absurd speculations, then claim to 'know'.

What a complete idiot; I feel sorry for the chap.

PS: It doesn't matter who killed more, you twat; killing other human beings is wrong. Full stop. And here you are attempting to justify it in the name of what you have probably misunderstood to be fascism. Your mind is truly deranged and I hope you get a full mental assessment from a top psychiatrist so you can be locked up. I really am shocked by a bumbling fool trying to justify fascism, because they only killed 5 million whilst communists killed 20 million [ random numbers ]. Shall we begin to speak of Mussolini and Hitler, because both were fascists ???? And shall we then begin to justify their political actions ??

Well, you have! But you probably have only the vaguest idea of these political systems. You picked up some word, watched some YouTube video, thought it was cool, and associated yourself with it - this, is why I feel sorry for you.

I knew fools like you in school; they spoke a lot, but when questioned, were exposed as impostors. If I was you, I would shut up.

??????????

And please, you all, do stay on topic!!!!

leningrad
05-28-2010, 09:07 AM
I have no problem whatsoever with people expressing their points of view, but I also think that those who suggest that opinions/views not in agreement with their own should be moderated, blocked, ridiculed or removed - should IMO receive a decent dose of their own 'medicine' and not be allowed to further participate on a forum such as this one.


I couldn't agree more.

But now back to alchemy please.

leningrad
05-28-2010, 09:15 AM
mostly rubbish and nonsense,.... the formation of the body of light/glory and the osirian mysteries however perverted and misunderstood they are by the writers of those letters and those discussing them here have nothing to do with actual alchemy as it has been written about and practised for milienia, internalizing alchemy is a modern invention

&

from nowhere a tangible stone is produced....



It is produced in the liver, the Paris 4 say. And alchemy was never understood as an internal process, because it's a Latter Day process. Nobody had a clue. They took the metaphor for the real thing. They read about lead (meaning DNA-man) and gold (meaning Lightbody-man) and then mused about real lead and real gold. The only thing they demonstrated by that is that they were in the dark about the Work. And how could they know why people are decapitated in alchemical texts? Because that is done once only at the extreme end of time.

There are kernels of alchemy in myth and religion, but they are not understood. Once you have read the Forbidden Letters and the response articles on those Letters, the mystery is solved:


'The human body is an alchemical body.' [David Gordon White]

'Our man is on the floor on his back. He had his eyes closed during the whole resurrection. A 'thread' (very thin) is closing around his neck. The head is decapitated by that 'thread'.' [The Paris 4]

'Eggelink thinks that the Mahavira pot used in the Pravargya ritual "is the head of Vishnu, the sacrificial man, and sacrificer." So in this ritual the sacrificer's divine body is supplied with its head. (...) In this way the sacrificer becomes immortal.' [Grace Cairns]

'According to Pannikar "God is dead from having created [1992:93]." He "dies in creating his creature; there is no room for two at this level [1992:105]." Thus "man must compose god in order to be able to have immortality [Michaels 2002:343]." - ' [Amina Bubic]

'Man is a mortal God and God an immortal man.' [Corpus Hermeticum]

&


'Following this thread, we found evidence that Alchemy is a demonstration of the physics at work in the galactic core [which resides in our microcosm, according to the Paris 4/Jonathan Rice].The true inner core of Alchemy appears in this light as the ability to apply the physics of creation to the task of personal immortality.' [Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges]

&


'As for the [Forbidden] Letters, I am concerned that this may be some kind of fulfillment of the Hendaye Cross. The final secrets of alchemy will be released before the end of time.'

[Jay Weidner, author of 'A Monument to the End of Time: Alchemy, Fulcanelli and the Great Cross']

leningrad
05-28-2010, 09:23 AM
I must quote Christian Rosenkreuz' crypt before I make a mad dash. In this word, are revealed the entire secrets of this art:

VITRIOL: "
Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem ("Visit the Interior Parts of the Earth; by Rectification Thou Shalt Find the Hidden Stone.") .
Goodbye chaps.

Kindred Soul


We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts. The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.

Best,
Leningrad.

leningrad
05-28-2010, 09:28 AM
Also becuase the true subject of the stone is reltively cheap and can be acquired by all, that is why it must be spoken of in riddles and a veiled langauge as is done in those 10,000 plus pages, otherwise they would make a spectacle of our art in a very short time and throw the whole world , economic system and all into great ruin,..

:o ...

The following quotes demonstrate how big the ignorance about the true nature of the Great Work is:


1.

'The idea Graham Hancock presents, namely that the Holy Grail was in fact the Ark of the Covenant, manages to bring together the story of the two most important Biblical artifacts in history. If you have an open mind and a zest for understanding, then this book should definitely be included on your reading list. Believe Hancock's opinions or not, the tale he tells is fascinating, dramatic, and intellectually enlightening.'[Daniel Jolley on Amazon]

2.

'As von Eschenbach says, this stone is called the Grail. But how can we look upon something that is within ourselves? Clearly, we are not to take this literally.'[Philip Gardiner and Gary Osborn]

3.

'What I like most about those (Forbidden) Letters is that they reveal the tremendous ignorance of the Grail-industry. All these so called experts like Hancock, Bauval and Gardiner, who appear to have been completey in the dark.'[June Reynolds]

4.

'There have been numerous attempts to relate the Grail to Alchemy.'[Richard Barber: 2004]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Barber ]

5.

'Barber's book masterly restores all the Grail's gravitas, giving it an exciting new lease of life.'[Independent]

6.

'Why should the Grail be a stone?'[Barber, 2004]

7.

'Barber is an Arthurian expert whose purpose is to hack a path through the muddled, corrupted and conflicting versions of the Grail Story.'[Daily Telegraph]

8.

'With Wolfram von Eschenbach nothing is straightforward. He used his arcane knowledge to add to the mystery of the Grail, not to define the object itself.'[Barber, 2004: passim/italics mine]

9.

'By the power of that Stone the Phoenix (i.e. the human body in Kundalini fire/Winter) burns to ashes, but the ashes quickly restore him to life again.'[Wolfram von Eschenbach] *)

10.

'The Phoenix is only present (in Eschenbach's version of the Grail Legend) to emphasize the power and unique nature of the Grail; it is the rarest and most splendid of birds, just as the Grail is the rarest and most splendid of precious stones. Beyond that, it is difficult to construct any kind of symbolic argument (here), since the Phoenix is interpreted in the bestiary as a token of the resurrection of the dead, which has no obvious relation to the Grail's function.'[Barber, 2004:passim]

11.

'Barber's book is a fascinating compendium of theology.'[Sunday Times]

12.

'All the information used (in my book) is genuine and verifiable. There is no one 'truth' about the Grail. All we can do is suggest how (its legend) may have arisen, and what it may mean, because the force that shaped it was imagination. The creative thought that subtly built on an unfinished story (the one by Chretien de Troyes/Winter), and invented the Grail.'[Richard Barber, 2004:passim]

13.

'The stone is produced about where the liver is. It ignites the Kundalini fire. It is pointy and about the size of a child's fist.'[The Paris 4: passim]

14.

'The Grail is beyond human language.'[Richard Barber, 2004]

15.

'I believed that the first shape of the Grail would be dimly discernible in the remote past. Instead, I found myself offering a very different picture, indebted to medieval theology (only).'[Barber, 2004:369]

16.

'In her 1953 book The Ancient Secret, Flavia Anderson points out that although the cities of Phoenicia had at one time successfully freed themselves from Egypt's imperialism, they had kept Egypt's Gods. And the very city, Toledo, where, as Wolfram von Eschenbach claims, the true story of Parzival and the Grail was found, was originally a Phoenician settlement, meaning, therefore, a settlement with its religious roots initially firmly planted in the theology of Ancient Egypt and its Pantheon. This all is a strong indication, ladies and gentlemen, that at least one line leads directly from the Benben Stone of Heliopolis to von Eschenbach's Grailstone.'[Maria El Safti on the Forbidden Letters]


Like I said, if you spend 2 or 3 days studying those Letters and the response-article, you will know what Alchemy is about.

horticult
05-28-2010, 11:03 AM
leningrad,
your nick speaks for yourself.
nomen omen

leningrad
05-28-2010, 02:42 PM
leningrad,
your nick speaks for yourself.
nomen omen

Horticult, there are many websites and forums where you can chat. This one is about Alchemy.

Leningrad

LeoRetilus
05-28-2010, 05:28 PM
Like I said, if you spend 2 or 3 days studying those Letters and the response-article, you will know what Alchemy is about.

Ok thanks for the education,....So let me surmise, in 2-3 days I will know what alchemy is all about huh, if I read the paris letters with your help in interpreting them, ok I'm a fairly quick study so I think I got it now......so the game plan then is to find the messiah, wherever he's hiding cause he's the only one that can make the stone, cause he's gay and cut out his liver, right? and then do what with it ,eat it?, with flava beans, will there be enough to go around?. Wow, I feel like a complete fool, what time I have wasted.:):):)

Andro
05-28-2010, 06:32 PM
Leningrad, thank you very much for starting this thread.

While I personally very much disagree with the concept of 'external salvation' or 'external saviour', the letters have provided me with the insight I needed to take a certain work I'm doing to the next level.

I have this habit to take ALL alchemical writings with a grain of salt, and I also have the habit not to automatically discard different perspectives, as 'strange' as they may appear at first, and surely not ridicule and derogate them with a trigger-happy finger.
________________________________________________

Here are some comments about one possible extraction, a bit less based on the letters themselves, but rather on the book written by the author(s) they were sent to:

The limitations of our physical bodies are directy related and dictated by our time-space-density locked, stamped and specified Genome.

This 'Genome' is the 'Venom' of the snake which must be corrected/rectified by the 'blood' of the same snake, which blood must be first prepared by itself according to the 'Glorification of the Body of Salt'.

When the poisonous/heterogenous superfluities of the 'Genome'/'Venom' are converted/expelled, there remains only Fire.

Remember the 'Water of Life' from 'Dune' - The original water is highly poisonous and must be first rectified by the Reverend Mother to become safe for consumption.

From a 'Dune' commentary:


"The Bene Gesserit test their acolytes by feeding them the Water of Life in a ritual known as the Spice Agony.
A skilled adept is able to transmute the poison safely within her body and becomes a Reverend Mother. Failure means death."

The resulting Elixir, when correctly partaken of, would in this case be the precursor to the Inner Philosopher's Stone.

Personally, I don't doubt that the rectification/correction of the 'Genome'/'Venom' may be performed exclusively internally, but it is often mentioned that in a short time the Alchemist can accomplish above ground what would take much longer in the 'bowels of the earth', so to speak.
________________________________________________


Horticult, there are many websites and forums where you can chat. This one is about Alchemy.

Indeed, Horticult - why don't you go and biblically 'Know Yourself' somewhere else?
Maybe you'll be able to penetrate a different 'language barrier' (the one deeply burried in the fatness of your virgin earth) once and for all...

May interesting things happen to you.
___________________________

User blocked.

vega33
05-29-2010, 06:48 AM
We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts. The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.

Regardless of any questioning of the homosexual aspects of the letters, I think this quote of the Paris 4 seems to display a profound lack of knowledge of alchemy and why it is called hermetic. The allusion to the centre of the earth should alert anyone studying the texts to the nature of the hermetic vessel and the way that anything is generated.

Animals are generated within the darkness of the body, are nurtured within the womb... vegetables in the darkness of their own earth... metals/minerals in the caverns beneath the earth. Crystallization occurs by a drawing inwards towards centres of nucleation. Implosion - also a center seeking movement. Similarly any spiritual or divine generation, regardless of whether it involves some sexual act, should involve a similar drawing inwards (like our magnet provokes). This is why the material of the Stone is found at the interior of the earth, since the parts thrown off as crust, a skin, is the result of the flowering process, the visible end of the generation, and not of the hidden inner process.

Their claim that the matter of the stone is in the body alone, referring to their own body, and that visiting the interior of the earth (apparently literally) only occurs after the generation of the Stone, is almost a complete 180 degree reversal of the principles alchemy is built on: #1, that its matter is found everywhere, #2 that people have not paid attention to the process of natural generation and it is here in Natures mysteries that we should focus our research (Michael Sendivogius). Anyone who refuses to recognise that the word hermetic designates something unseen, something enclosed or shut up, misses the golden key.


But though they never departed from the simple ways of Nature they have something to teach us, which, in these more sophisticated times, still need to learn, because we have applied ourselves to what are regarded as the more advanced branches of knowledge, and despise the study of so "simple " a thing as natural Generation. Hence we pay more heed to impossible things than to those objects which are broadly exhibited before our very eyes, we excel more in subtle speculations than in a sober study of Nature, and of the meaning of the Sages.

Alas this statement of the Cosmopolite is true. It has always seemed sad to me that, as Sendivogius put it, people seem to despise the study of such a simple thing as natural generation and how it occurs, and prefer such drawn out allegories about gay men and astral journeys into the heart of the planet to the seal of truth.

kindred_soul
05-29-2010, 06:50 AM
There are two important points from the Forbidden Letters I would like to point out. These are:

1. Fire

2. The stone being derived from the liver

Does the tale of Prometheus not suddenly spring to mind ?

And for those familiar with Hippocrates' theory of the four humours [which I suspect were alchemical, given the fact that Hippocrates himself was an alchemist], they offer the answer to why the stone is produced in the liver:


The second most important source of life is the Humors, which are vital essences that also course through the blood vessels. The Humors are manufactured in the liver from nutrients that have been extracted by the digestive system from food and liquids.

To eat one's liver is representative of the required extraction that leads to the formation of the stone. *Hint: the punishment of Prometheus

It seems the Paris 4 are extremely well versed alchemists.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

PS: I decided to not abscond, following an e-mail by a fellow forum member suggesting that I reconsider this hasty decision, given in particular, the wealth of information available on the forum.

kindred_soul
05-29-2010, 06:59 AM
Vega33,

To state that the stone is in the body does not contradict the statement that it is found everywhere. If you truly understand the concept of microcosm and macrocosm, you will realize that the alchemical processs mimics the process of creation; have you ever wondered why it is said that Adam and Eve were created 'from the dust of the ground' and many tribes have stories of God creating men out of clay. The world was also created out of such 'clay'.

The alchemist however, accelerates nature; he plays 'God' by taking his own clay, re-softening it, then re-heating it with a hidden fire, that refines it to an even finer quality than previously.

Even Hermes echoes this in his Emerald Tablets:


Thus thou hast the glory of the whole world; therefore let all obscurity flee before thee. This is the strong fortitude of all fortitude, overcoming every subtle and penetrating every solid thing. Thus the world was created. Hence are all wonderful adaptations, of which this is the manner.

You must remember, alchemy is only a part of the parcel. I leave it to you to discover why the alchemists were spiritual men and women. Truly seek to understand the Upanishads, and why Francis Bacon ( another alchemist) echoes phrases of these works, and it shall slowly begin to make sense.

Perhaphs this might help:


In ancient Greece the material universe was considered to be composed of four basic elements: Fire, Air, Water and Earth. There was also a fifth, energetic but invisible element, which permeated all space. This was known as the Prima Materia (Prime Matter) or Aether. Aether was seen as the foundation substance of the four material elements, which during creation of the material universe, had first been transformed into Fire, then into Air, then Water and finally into Earth. Thus Fire was considered to be the most energetic of the elements, while Earth was considered the least energetic....Thus human beings were considered to be composed of four material elements: Fire, Air, Water and Earth and to contain a vital force or energy called pneuma (translates to spirit).


This ['coincidentally' ;) ] happens to be the same doctrine espoused by the Rishis of Ancient India. But this information really belongs to no-one; it is eternal wisdom and no culture can claim [ although many have attempted ] to be the originators of this knowledge.

I have given more than enough information here; he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

vega33
05-29-2010, 08:04 AM
Vega33,

To state that the stone is in the body does not contradict the statement that it is found everywhere. If you truly understand the concept of microcosm and macrocosm, you will realize that the alchemical processs mimics the process of creation; have you ever wondered why it is said that Adam and Eve were created 'from the dust of the ground' and many tribes have stories of God creating men out of clay. The world was also created out of such 'clay'.

The alchemist however, accelerates nature; he plays 'God' by taking his own clay, re-softening it, then re-heating it with a hidden fire, that refines it to an even finer quality than previously.

Even Hermes echoes this in his Emerald Tablets:


Thus thou hast the glory of the whole world; therefore let all obscurity flee before thee. This is the strong fortitude of all fortitude, overcoming every subtle and penetrating every solid thing. Thus the world was created. Hence are all wonderful adaptations, of which this is the manner.

You must remember, alchemy is only a part of the parcel. I leave it to you to discover why the alchemists were spiritual men and women. Truly seek to understand the Upanishads, and why Francis Bacon ( another alchemist) echoes phrases of these works, and it shall slowly begin to make sense.

Perhaphs this might help:


In ancient Greece the material universe was considered to be composed of four basic elements: Fire, Air, Water and Earth. There was also a fifth, energetic but invisible element, which permeated all space. This was known as the Prima Materia (Prime Matter) or Aether. Aether was seen as the foundation substance of the four material elements, which during creation of the material universe, had first been transformed into Fire, then into Air, then Water and finally into Earth. Thus Fire was considered to be the most energetic of the elements, while Earth was considered the least energetic....Thus human beings were considered to be composed of four material elements: Fire, Air, Water and Earth and to contain a vital force or energy called pneuma (translates to spirit).


This ['coincidentally' ;) ] happens to be the same doctrine espoused by the Rishis of Ancient India. But this information really belongs to no-one; it is eternal wisdom and no culture can claim [ although many have attempted ] to be the originators of this knowledge.

I have given more than enough information here; he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

kindred_soul,

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to clarify this (although I'm actually familiar with the ubiquity of the matter of the Stone and mentioned it in my post). However, what I was pointed out was the statement by the Paris 4, in the quote above, stating that "The stone is found in the body, not in the earth." They are not stating that the stone is in the body and also somewhere else. They are stating the opposite. For this reason alone their statement lacks alchemical veracity. But then I looked at their conception that VITRIOL meant the opposite of what it actually signifies. By their definition the chicken would be created and then it travels into the center of the egg, or the man is born outside of the body and then climbs right back in his mothers maw. Statements like this are just ridiculous, they don't require that much critical analysis to see how they deviate from the description of the work by previous generations of authors, or how they deviate from Nature's processes.

Fraternally

leningrad
05-29-2010, 08:17 AM
Personally, I don't doubt that the rectification/correction of the 'Genome'/'Venom' may be performed exclusively internally, but it is often mentioned that in a short time the Alchemist can accomplish above ground what would take much longer in the 'bowels of the earth', so to speak.

In the de la Censerie-article they say:


In his original manuscript Gardiner stated that these two properties of the one snake were mixed in a ‘human skull cap’ – adding that this “bowl” was possibly the origin for the Holy Grail vessel.' [Gary Osborn]

Risible, because, as all true experts on the Grail know, and Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince pointed out in an interview...

'...the vessel idea of the Grail was not its original form. The first tales either didn't describe the mysterious Grail as anything in particular, or had it as a stone.'

Risible, because the single serpent of Asclepius of medicine, the one that also represents the shamans and witchdoctors of Gardiner, has absolutely nothing to do with the intertwined serpents of the Caduceus of Hermes, who represent alchemical transformation and the Elixir of Life, being a by-product of that transformation in the body of the successful alchemist.

In other words, Gardiner and Osborn had failed to see that the Elixir of Life is produced in the lightbody of the victorious alchemist (the Shining One), i.e. man deified. That it is a purely microcosmic elixir therefore, and not a macrocosmic one, meaning one mixed in a skull for instance and presented to some patient. In yet other words: the Elixir of Life is not swallowed, it is exclusively produced and consumed in the body of a triumphant alchemist.

I personally trust that theory. The alchemcial process is utterly autonomous. Because: performed by the God within. And he will have everything he needs, no doubt.

Best wishes,
Leningrad

leningrad
05-29-2010, 08:29 AM
We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts. The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.



Regardless of any questioning of the homosexual aspects of the letters, I think this quote of the Paris 4 seems to display a profound lack of knowledge of alchemy and why it is called hermetic. The allusion to the centre of the earth should alert anyone studying the texts to the nature of the hermetic vessel and the way that anything is generated.

With all due respect, I find this remark funny, because the quote at the top has cracked the code of the alchemical cucurbita:


'It may well be a prejudice to restrict the psyche to being 'inside the body.' In so far as the psyche has a non-spatial aspect, there may be a psychic aspect 'outside the body,' a region so utterly different from 'my' psychic space, that one has to get outside oneself or make use of some auxiliary technique in order to get there. If this view is at all correct, the alchemical consummation of the royal marriage (...) could be understood as a synthetic process in the psyche 'outside' the ego.' [Jung, MC:pars 410]


To transmute this substance, its two parts, Sol and Luna, King and Queen have to be wed. Jung assumed that this marriage was a 'synthetic process in the psyche 'outside' the ego.'[Jung, MC, pars 410] This realm outside the ego is already discussed by Maud Perkins in section 12 of http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_25.htm. But what exactly did Jung mean by that realm 'outside the ego'? He was referring there to 'the microcosmic space of the psyche,'[pars 410] that space possibly being 'a whole world in itself, a macrocosm.'[pars 412] Yet, 'the fact that one can get into this territory (...) does not mean that it belongs to me personally. The ego is Here and Now, but the 'outside-of-the-ego' is an alien There. Both earlier and later, before and after. So it is not surprising that the primitive mind sensed the psyche outside the ego as an alien country, inhabited by the spirits of the dead. On a rather higher level it takes on the character of a shadowy semi-reality, and on the level of the ancient cultures, the shadows of that 'land beyond' have turned into ideas. In Gnostic-Christian circles these (ideas) were developed into a dogmatic, hierarchically arranged, cosmogonic and chiliastic system which appears to us moderns as an involuntary, symbolic statement of the psyche concerning the structure of the psychic non-ego. This region, if still seen as a spectral 'land beyond', appears to be a whole world in itself, a macrocosm. If, on the other hand, it is felt as 'psychic' and 'inside', it seems like a microcosm of the smallest proportions.[Jung, MC, pars 411 et 412]
'Whoever wished to commit this (alchemical/Cambronne) act (...), would therefore have to get outside himself, as if into an external glasshouse, a round cucurbita which represented the microcosmic space of the psyche.' [Jung, MC, pars 410] In the words of the Paris 4 from one of their 'ridiculous Letters' [Knight-Jadczyk]:

'If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.' [The Paris 4]

Then, you say:


Their claim that the matter of the stone is in the body alone, referring to their own body, and that visiting the interior of the earth (apparently literally) only occurs after the generation of the Stone, is almost a complete 180 degree reversal of the principles alchemy is built on: #1, that its matter is found everywhere, #2 that people have not paid attention to the process of natural generation and it is here in Natures mysteries that we should focus our research (Michael Sendivogius). Anyone who refuses to recognise that the word hermetic designates something unseen, something enclosed or shut up, misses the golden key.

The Forbidden Letters are the conclusion to alchemy, as some writers on alchemy have said to Gary Osborn. In Other words, they have understood that Alchemy was a mystery before September 1986. There were kernels, but that was all. Nobody new the actual 'scenario.'


...all the mysteries of alchemy seem solved. From the ludus puerorum to the decapitation, and from the role of the stone to the alchemist having to visit the center of the earth. Everything fits, and fits neatly. Even the Phoenix is explained, being a metaphor for the human body consumed and recomposed in kundalini-fire.(de la Censerie on the Forbidden Letters)

On we go.


...and prefer such drawn out allegories about gay men and astral journeys into the heart of the planet to the seal of truth.

Perhaps these quotes are helpful:


2.1

'We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts.' [The Paris 4]

2.2

'Psychotherapy could thus be imagined as a mining expedition or geographical exploration to reach the central source of life at the core.' [Jung]

2.3

'In a sense Jung owes this metaphor of the human personality to the Philosophers of Nature for whom the earth was an anthropomorphized entity with its own soul, or indeed, psyche.' [Noll, 1994]

2.4

'By looking inwards, one can see, in the distance, a "single star in the Zenith" of this inner world: The Star is the God and the goal of man..' [Noll, 1994]

2.5

'The inner core of the personality representing the source of all life is thus represented in this mandala (by Jung) as a sun. If Jungian individuation is adaptation to inner reality, it is a descent into the deepest regions of the psyche (microcosm/Liebreich) to seek closer contact with the source of all life, the inner sun (or star) as the God within.' [Noll, 1994]

2.6

'You have the energy of the sun in you, but you keep knotting it up at the base of your spine.' [Ibn Rumi]


Best,
Leningrad.

leningrad
05-29-2010, 08:42 AM
There are two important points from the Forbidden Letters I would like to point out. These are:

1. Fire

2. The stone being derived from the liver

Does the tale of Prometheus not suddenly spring to mind ?

Quite. This is taken from the Ingo Berg-article:


17.


'The Paris 4 tell us that Stone is 'pointy and about the size of a child's fist.'

That it ignites the resurrectional fire of Kundalini and 'that it is produced about where the liver is.' This last remark by the Paris 4 reminded me of a remark by Georges Dumezil .

Dumezil conjectured that the Titan Prometheus stole not the chemical fire for our ovens, but the fire of immortality. Zeus then punished him for this by having him bound to a rock while a great eagle (central bird in Alchemy representing Spirit) ate his liver every day, only to have it grow back to be eaten again the next day.'[Jos Winter on the Forbidden Letters]


18.


'I asked myself how the Gods in the Prometheus-myth could feel threatened by the theft of everyday fire. But if the fire of immortality is at stake here, then the rage of the Gods would indeed be explained.'[L. Tausendschön/my emphasis]


19.


´And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - ´[Genesis 3/my emphasis]


20.


'When you succeed in awakening Kundalini-fire, you necessarily start a world which is totally different from our world. It is a world of eternity.'[Carl Jung/my emphasis]


21.


'I always wondered why knowledge about good and evil should clash with immortality.'[L. Tausendschön]



It seems the Paris 4 are extremely well versed alchemists.


'The Letters are unsinkable. Bash 'em, and they bash you back.'(Otto Reich)



'You need to be well read to appreciate those Letters.' [Alchemical Tribe]


Ok thanks for the education,....So let me surmise, in 2-3 days I will know what alchemy is all about huh, if I read the paris letters with your help in interpreting them, ok I'm a fairly quick study so I think I got it now......so the game plan then is to find the messiah, wherever he's hiding cause he's the only one that can make the stone, cause he's gay and cut out his liver, right? and then do what with it ,eat it?, with flava beans, will there be enough to go around?. Wow, I feel like a complete fool, what time I have wasted. :)

leningrad
05-29-2010, 08:48 AM
I decided to not abscond, following an e-mail by a fellow forum member suggesting that I reconsider this hasty decision, given in particular, the wealth of information available on the forum.

Excellent decision. Welcome back. ;)

leningrad
05-29-2010, 08:53 AM
Vega33,

To state that the stone is in the body does not contradict the statement that it is found everywhere.


The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside.(Paris 4)


The world is my projection.(Paris 4)


"If the solipsists are right, that the universe, including the minds of others, is entirely the creation of the mind, then this would mean everybody is fundamentally not only God, but also alone. You need a good stomach to think this really through: our loved ones being only a phenomenon produced by our mind; at the same time you not being the phenomenon of the mind of somebody else." [John Raven in the Guillaume Bernier-article]


If you truly understand the concept of microcosm and macrocosm, you will realize that the alchemical processs mimics the process of creation; have you ever wondered why it is said that Adam and Eve were created 'from the dust of the ground' and many tribes have stories of God creating men out of clay. The world was also created out of such 'clay'.

The alchemist however, accelerates nature; he plays 'God' by taking his own clay, re-softening it, then re-heating it with a hidden fire, that refines it to an even finer quality than previously.


11.


'But do grace and redemption occupy an essential place in Alchemy? Doesn't the alchemist give instead the impression of a sort of demiurge seeking to scale the steps leading to the gates of heaven by his own means?'[A. Faivre/emphasis added]


12.


'Your God and heaven spell alchemy.'[The Paris 4](Joan Quin-article)

Greetz,
Leningrad

leningrad
05-29-2010, 09:08 AM
However, what I was pointing out was the statement by the Paris 4, in the quote above, stating that "The stone is found in the body, not in the earth." They are not stating that the stone is in the body and also somewhere else. They are stating the opposite. For this reason alone their statement lacks alchemical veracity.

Vega, they say:


The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body.

Then John Raven comments:


"If the solipsists are right, that the universe, including the minds of others, is entirely the creation of the mind, then this would mean everybody is fundamentally not only God, but also alone. You need a good stomach to think this really through: our loved ones being only a phenomenon produced by our mind; at the same time you not being the phenomenon of the mind of somebody else." [John Raven in the Guillaume Bernier-article]

This all means hat there is only one Stone per alchemist, meaning per universe



'Adonai (i.e. God/Winter) is sometimes called lapis (i.e. stone/Winter), for the latter is the foundation of the whole fabric of the world.'[Jung quoting from the Cabala Denudata](Jos Winter-article on the Letters)

Because the Stone is the foundation of the microcosm, it is the foundation of the macrocosm too en hence ubiquitos in the macrocosm. The macrocosm is a product of the microcosm, not the microcosm a little mirror of the macrocosm. Macro is only projetion. Micro the projector:


In any case, the microcosmic male and female have to be united and can only be united, according to Alchemy, through an agent, usually called spirit. And if that agent is successful, if the two can 'make peace within a single house,' [9] then they will become omnipotent. 'They will say to the mountain, move from here, and it will move.' [10]

This, ladies and gentlemen, accords beautifully with Indian alchemy which 'conceives of the world as power.' [11] Because in Tantra 'the world is nothing but power to be harnessed.' [12] (Actually, it is nothing but information to be harnessed.)

But, 'human' omnipotence can only work of course if the Self is already the organizing center of the universe. If, in other words, the microcosm is the fundament of the macrocosm, and not, as most people think, the microcosm a mere reflection of the macroworld. (After all, what would such a reflection serve?) Next to will, consciousness might be a key-factor here and therefor possibly 'an irreducible scientific entity in its own right, similar to concepts such as mass and gravity.'[13]

Any solipsist would agree here of course. What's more, he would declare that mass and gravity are only properties of consciousness. (Pablo Uribe/article)



But then I looked at their conception that VITRIOL meant the opposite of what it actually signifies. By their definition the chicken would be created and then it travels into the center of the egg, or the man is born outside of the body and then climbs right back in his mothers maw. Statements like this are just ridiculous, they don't require that much critical analysis to see how they deviate from the description of the work by previous generations of authors, or how they deviate from Nature's processes.

You keep forgetting that those ´previous generations´ were not alchemists. An alchemist is he who does the things that gay man did between 1986 and now. And Vitriol, this is how it works:


To transmute this substance, its two parts, Sol and Luna, King and Queen have to be wed. Jung assumed that this marriage was a 'synthetic process in the psyche 'outside' the ego.'[Jung, MC, pars 410] This realm outside the ego is already discussed by Maud Perkins in section 12 of http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_25.htm. But what exactly did Jung mean by that realm 'outside the ego'? He was referring there to 'the microcosmic space of the psyche,'[pars 410] that space possibly being 'a whole world in itself, a macrocosm.'[pars 412] Yet, 'the fact that one can get into this territory (...) does not mean that it belongs to me personally. The ego is Here and Now, but the 'outside-of-the-ego' is an alien There. Both earlier and later, before and after. So it is not surprising that the primitive mind sensed the psyche outside the ego as an alien country, inhabited by the spirits of the dead. On a rather higher level it takes on the character of a shadowy semi-reality, and on the level of the ancient cultures, the shadows of that 'land beyond' have turned into ideas. In Gnostic-Christian circles these (ideas) were developed into a dogmatic, hierarchically arranged, cosmogonic and chiliastic system which appears to us moderns as an involuntary, symbolic statement of the psyche concerning the structure of the psychic non-ego. This region, if still seen as a spectral 'land beyond', appears to be a whole world in itself, a macrocosm. If, on the other hand, it is felt as 'psychic' and 'inside', it seems like a microcosm of the smallest proportions.[Jung, MC, pars 411 et 412]
'Whoever wished to commit this (alchemical/Cambronne) act (...), would therefore have to get outside himself, as if into an external glasshouse, a round cucurbita which represented the microcosmic space of the psyche.' [Jung, MC, pars 410] In the words of the Paris 4 from one of their 'ridiculous Letters' [Knight-Jadczyk]:

'If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.' [The Paris 4]

vega33
05-29-2010, 09:28 AM
Then Johan Raven comments:

Quote:
"If the solipsists are right, that the universe, including the minds of others, is entirely the creation of the mind, then this would mean everybody is fundamentally not only God, but also alone. You need a good stomach to think this really through: our loved ones being only a phenomenon produced by our mind; at the same time you not being the phenomenon of the mind of somebody else." [John Raven in the Guillaume Bernier-article]
This all means hat there is only one Stone per alchemist, meaning per universe

This is actually a very philosophically subtle, and relatively recent interpretation of reality. It's the modern mental-universe concept carried to its ultimate absurdist end. It also quotes no alchemical texts and is not supported by the writings of the classical authors.

If the statement that the Paris 4 made saying "The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body" was the only philosophically inaccurate statement made by these writers, I would be inclined to think they were merely being subtle, trying to be clever, perhaps by using the word body to mean created bodies in general. However, the remainder of their letters makes it devastatingly and utterly clear: they are writing in a dogmatic style about an interpretation of the Stone as solely an internal, "body of glory" type substance that the alchemist creates within his/her own body (and probably only "his", based on their barely veiled description of the prostate gland in the letters).

I find their writings to be, as certain others have said on this forum, utter nonsense filled with logical inconsistencies and factual errors not only in their description of alchemical processes, but in their description of Kundalini and their claims of the Stone bringing physical immortality, claims that have never been advocated by any serious alchemist even back to the beginning of the Art.

leningrad
05-29-2010, 10:36 AM
This is actually a very philosophically subtle, and relatively recent interpretation of reality. It's the modern mental-universe concept carried to its ultimate absurdist end. It also quotes no alchemical texts and is not supported by the writings of the classical authors.

Again, Vega, your classical authors were all in the dark. An alchemist is he who produces the stone, is decapitated, etc... Latter Day phenomena.


However, the remainder of their letters makes it devastatingly and utterly clear: they are writing in a dogmatic style about an interpretation of the Stone as solely an internal, "body of glory" type substance that the alchemist creates within his/her own body (and probably only "his", based on their barely veiled description of the prostate gland in the letters).

Their point of departure is not dogma, but experience. They attack dogma. ('The alchemy-writers were quite mistaking here.')


I find their writings to be, as certain others have said on this forum, utter nonsense filled with logical inconsistencies and factual errors not only in their description of alchemical processes, but in their description of Kundalini and their claims of the Stone bringing physical immortality, claims that have never been advocated by any serious alchemist even back to the beginning of the Art.

Whoever died was not an alchemist, the Paris 4 say. And that includes your 'serious alchemist' too.


...their claims of the Stone bringing physical immortality, claims that have never been advocated by any serious alchemist even back to the beginning of the Art.

That claim was even confirmed by Jung...


'The lapis-Christ-parallel plays an important role in Jakob Boehme, but I do not want to go into this here. A characteristic passage is to be found in 'de signatura rerum'. It is clear enough from this material what the ultimate aim of alchemy really was: it was trying to produce a subtile body, a transfigured and resurrected body, i.e. a body that was at the same time spirit. In this it finds common ground with Chinese Alchemy, as we have learned from the secret of the Golden Flower. There the goal is the diamond body, in other words, the attainment of immortality through the transformation of the body.' [Jung]

...ss well as by a Gospel that could not be edited by the Church anymore... The Gospel of Thomas:


These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."


82. Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the (Father's) kingdom."

leningrad
05-29-2010, 10:43 AM
I find their writings to be, as certain others have said on this forum, utter nonsense filled with logical inconsistencies and factual errors not only in their description of alchemical processes...

Can you give like three examples? That won't be difficult if they are filled, as you say, with utter nonsense. Good luck! :)


2.13

'I too have approached several alchemists about the Letters, and they all have been in favour of them; that what is being divulged in them is true. One said that the secrets of Alchemy are no longer secret. Simple as that." [Gary Osborn on July 12 2007/bolds and underscore added by me]

2.14

'The Forbidden Letters by the Paris 4 are the conclusion to the mysteries of alchemy.'[Gary Osborn quoting an alchemist he consulted on the Letters/bolds and underscore added by me]

vega33
05-29-2010, 12:55 PM
Hi leningrad,

I'd love to be able to provide more logical inconsistencies, and provide reasoned argument, but first lets take a look at some of your statements:


Again, Vega, your classical authors were all in the dark. An alchemist is he who produces the stone, is decapitated, etc... Latter Day phenomena.

Their point of departure is not dogma, but experience. They attack dogma. ('The alchemy-writers were quite mistaking here.')

Whoever died was not an alchemist, the Paris 4 say. And that includes your 'serious alchemist' too.


So basically what you are saying is that people such as the Cosmopolite, Michael Sendivogius, Flamel, Philalethes, Ripley, Starkey, the author of the Most Holy Trinsophia, Artephius, Pontanus, Hortulanus, Aristotle and many many other authors who are our sole guide as to what alchemy and the Stone are - are all incorrect because they died, and that in fact all the classical authors never produced the Stone and therefore shouldn't be trusted because - they died! right? That they can't have made the Stone if they're dead?

This, out of all the logical inconsistencies and fallacies propagated by the Paris 4 has to be the most laughable of them all. The claim that all these other adepts were wrong because they're not immortal, but that some anonymous gay man born on the 17th of January is fricken immortal but just wants to share with the world "I'm immortal and gay, oh and by the way I'm also an alchemist" (sounds like Freddie Mercury had sex with a Highlander and brought forth a lovechild) sounds like the plot for some bizarre comedy novel.

Furthermore, the claim that Kundalini awakening causes immortality would seem at odds with the accounts of many yogis, published and unpublished... but then again maybe all of them are wrong and the Paris 4 just happen to be right :D.

Unfortunately their illogical assertion that any non-immortal being is not an alchemist (and your apparent agreement with them in the quote above) seems to prevent any logical discussion of the subject... after all, unless you're not sharing some big news with us I don't know of any living multi-centurian gay folk (who just happen to be in contact with some anonymous Parisian netizens). Especially with a matching birth-date. So not only can their assertion that they are immortal not be proven wrong or right, any lack of logical correlation with what has been called alchemy in previous centuries can be claimed by proponents of this theory to arise because the writers of those texts are not immortals! It makes perfect sense! LOL.

Do you seriously believe there is a secret group of immortals, potentially thousands of years old, who are the only real alchemists? Or are you just yanking my chain?

Awani
05-29-2010, 01:30 PM
Do you seriously believe there is a secret group of immortals, potentially thousands of years old, who are the only real alchemists?

I would not be surprised to discover that there is indeed some Unknown Superiors walking around... nor would I be surprised to find out that there isn't. I think it is as futile to discuss this as it is to discuss if there is a God or not.

Looking at the facts, with reason and logic, the answer is NO... but I do wish we had some wise immortal sages... because if they exist I would love to speak to them.

:cool:

Albion
05-29-2010, 01:33 PM
Long daisy-chains of disparate quotes do not, of themselves, constitute a sound supportive argument - except in the minds of the fundamentalists submitting them.

Add to this a tone of religious fervor and a knee-jerk tendency to instantly lash back at anyone who calls into question any given particular of the package-deal belief-system (in an attempt to nurture and safeguard its presumed sacrosanct cultic aura) and what you have is, indeed, something that is in its own special category - as per the consensus of its adherents, who are free to claim that this is the only “real” alchemy - whether the majority of alchemical texts tend toward substantiating their claims or not.

But it is a bit naïve (or religiously disingenuous) to imagine, realistically, that many on this forum (with a strong emphasis on lab alchemy) are just going to simply roll over and be converted by serving them a smorgasbord of verses with true-believer enthusiasm.

Sharing beliefs is fine. But, leaving aside the issue of the validity of your claims or the possibility as to whether or not individuals might glean something of value from the website, what you are presenting to us here (in the manner you are presenting it) is an ongoing religious tract for a closed system that most of us are never going to “get” because many of the premises, presumed experts, and the supposedly supportive train of logic will never be enough to convert us to accepting that this is what Alchemy is “really” all about.
__________________________________________________ __________________

General Note: Anyone of “visitas” status should think twice before laying into higher ranking members - whatever your initial sense of offense or assumptions of moral high-ground might be. Due diligence is to first familiarize yourself, to some extent, with both the forum in general and the members in particular so that when you speak you have some sense of both the intended audience and the contributions/mind of the person to whom you are responding.

Awani
05-29-2010, 02:59 PM
(with a strong emphasis on lab alchemy)

This is a shame I think, as I feel there should be more equality considering the many aspects of alchemy. Any form of synergy becomes too lab-heavy... the dogma of LAB and non-LAB destroy each other. Alas...

This is not an opinion on what is discussed in this thread, just a general thought...

:cool:

Andro
05-29-2010, 03:23 PM
Do you seriously believe there is a secret group of immortals, potentially thousands of years old, who are the only real alchemists?

Robert Monroe (Ulimate Journey) estimated their number at around 600. At least one such encounter is described HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1418). I've had a similar encounter myself.

Our Philosophical perception is limited by socio-cultural-religious indoctrination (whether we're aware of it or not, but mostly not), spiritual maturity/wisdom and also by the extent to which our pre-incarnationally chosen genetic make-up approaches Alchemical Androgyny.

For example, pre-incarnationally chosing a genetic make-up or a physical entry point that is likely to attract more difficulty, adversity, controversy or antagonism, will increase the alchemical fire and so, advancement will be more rapid compared to incarnations chosing more 'comforatable' and 'acceptable' genetics and entry points/life circumstances.

All this does not mean that I myself blindly subscribe to the presented thesis, and especially not to the concept of an external saviour.

And BTW - what is it exactly that we want to be 'saved' from?

:D

It's only a game, taken FAR too seriously by most IMO. Once we've cracked the programmer's codes and located the exits, the game is no longer of interest to us and we simply move on, with or without Alchemical Elixirs of one sort of another.

Alchemists of all kinds simply attempt to max out the journey as much as possible by intensifying the experience and increasing the levels of challenge/difficulty on the various playing levels and fields. Some succeed, some don't.

The ones who succeed are most likely to use their rightfully earned power to maximize their own experience, and are highly unlikely to overtly interfere with the overall scenario, except for maybe introducing certain variables at certain key points - which is also part of the game's design.


Long daisy-chains of disparate quotes do not, of themselves, constitute a sound supportive argument

I agreee. More personal input is needed to create a discussion. Merely posting quotes won't cut it.


...claim that this is the only “real” alchemy - whether the majority of alchemical texts tend toward substantiating their claims or not.

The majority of media (TV, Newspapers, etc) in any environment will present its angle on reality, based on the data that substantiates the angle and ignoring the data that doesn't.

Knowing reality is ultimately between one and one-self.
It's also not a static thing, but rather an open-ended and ever-expanding experience.


But it is a bit naïve (or religiously disingenuous) to imagine, realistically, that many on this forum (with a strong emphasis on lab alchemy) are just going to simply roll over and be converted by serving them a smorgasbord of verses with true-believer enthusiasm.

Noone is expecting anyone to roll over and be 'converted'.

However, I find it rather interesting that the replies to this rather controversial thesis have brought forth more sarcasm and ridicule from its contestants than on any other thread I am aware of. This in itself should signal something :rolleyes:


...most of us are never going to “get” because many of the premises, presumed experts, and the supposedly supportive train of logic will never be enough to convert us to accepting that this is what Alchemy is “really” all about.

Like all controversy-raising novelties, this too is not meant for 'most of us'. I also do not detect any attempt to 'convert' anyone, at least no more than other members who employ a very obvious pontificating tone when pushing their 'acts'.


Anyone of “visitas” status should think twice before laying into higher ranking members - whatever your initial sense of offense or assumptions of moral high-ground might be.

There are 'higher ranking' members who are still relative novices in the Art. The ranks simply refer to the number of posts made on the forum, nothing more. You can just post a welcome message to every new member and increase your post count. On the other hand, there are highly accomplished Alchemists here who are not in the habit of posting too much. You get the point.


Due diligence is to first familiarize yourself, to some extent, with both the forum in general and the members in particular so that when you speak you have some sense of both the intended audience and the contributions/mind of the person to whom you are responding.

I don't subscribe to the suggestion that one should polish their act to fit the mindframe of the audience (regardless of the content of the act itself).
Doing so is the hallmark of artistic mediocricy. I find it more valuable to simply speak one's mind (clearly, if possible).
We're here neither to please, nor to convert. Only to share, hoping to find a few like-minded for mutual learning and enhancement.

kindred_soul
05-29-2010, 04:10 PM
Guys,

Can we avoid the specualtive banter and discuss PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of this art, otherwise we will never get anywhere.

I hope those who have actually transformed [ or are in the process of transforming lead to gold] will come forward and make some contributions. All else is speculation that leads to nowhere.

As for immortals, a friend of mine has met a few. Yes, they exist, but they are hidden away from society in this Kali Yuga. Does it shock you that he has met a few? You'd be surprised to know that some true initiatory schools do still exist, but not as openly as in the Greek periods. The very fact that this discussion has provoked some very disturbing reactions should make this self explanatory. If someone told you they were an immortal, you'd likely ask them to 'perform a trick like turning solid metal lead into gold' rather than asking them to impart their wisdom. As for those who still think that alchemy is converting solid lead into solid gold, I am shocked that with this materialistic view, you can even call yourself an alchemist.

As for those who died not being alchemists, I feel this means that those who died and were not resurrected, did not manage complete the alchemical work. Remember, both fire and water are required to finish the work. Fire alone does not do it. Neither does water alone. Some will understand. And even if you have managed to successfully unite fire and water, you must stay alive long enough for this process to be completed. If you die prematurely [ remember, some alchemists were tortured and murdered], you must return to contine this in another incarnation.

Please, let the experienced come forward. Then again, I doubt they will, because he who truly knows, rarely speaks. I find this has been my experience. The more I discover, the less I talk.


Regards,

Kindred Soul

Awani
05-29-2010, 05:44 PM
I am shocked that with this materialistic view, you can even call yourself an alchemist.

I am anticipating some angry replies, so please refrain from attack. I think it is an interesting discussion. Those who don't should not take part, and those who do should speak clearly, without ego, considering all possibilities. In this way we will all gain so much more from heated debates. They are after all the ones who most often generate some new illuminating ideas.

:cool:

Awani
05-29-2010, 05:48 PM
The more I discover, the less I talk.

I too have seen this, experienced this etc... but I disagree. Talk more... if it is fear that is stopping you then you are weak (you in general terms). Be strong. The wise have been silent for so long that I blame all worldly misfortune on them.

And if their voices does not create freedom and peace of mind, then they are not wise - then they should shut up and continue to be unknown.


On the other hand, there are highly accomplished Alchemists here who are not in the habit of posting too much.

See what I wrote above:p

:cool:

leningrad
05-29-2010, 06:38 PM
So basically what you are saying is that people such as the Cosmopolite, Michael Sendivogius, Flamel, Philalethes, Ripley, Starkey, the author of the Most Holy Trinsophia, Artephius, Pontanus, Hortulanus, Aristotle and many many other authors who are our sole guide as to what alchemy and the Stone are - are all incorrect because they died, and that in fact all the classical authors never produced the Stone and therefore shouldn't be trusted because - they died! right? That they can't have made the Stone if they're dead?

Exactly.


This, out of all the logical inconsistencies and fallacies propagated by the Paris 4 has to be the most laughable of them all. The claim that all these other adepts were wrong because they're not immortal, but that some anonymous gay man born on the 17th of January is fricken immortal but just wants to share with the world "I'm immortal and gay, oh and by the way I'm also an alchemist" (sounds like Freddie Mercury had sex with a Highlander and brought forth a lovechild) sounds like the plot for some bizarre comedy novel.


"The gay connection to Kundalini, as brought to our attention by the Paris 4, has proven to be a very sensitive subject to some people." [Gary Osborn] ;)


Furthermore, the claim that Kundalini awakening causes immortality would seem at odds with the accounts of many yogis, published and unpublished... but then again maybe all of them are wrong and the Paris 4 just happen to be right :D.

Right:



"Reading the Forbidden Letters, all of a sudden the mystery seems solved why Kundalini-awakenings in the past didn't lead to physical lightbodies and physical immortality. And why, in teachings on alchemy, that lightbody was gradually turned into an after-death-body and physical immortality into
soul-immortality or a prolonged life. (Only certain Tamil schools still stick to their teachings on physical immortality.) - Because a Kundalini-awakening is not yet the Work of the Sun. You apparently need the whole thing. To produce that stone, to be decapitated, to have that wheel
raised in the head and to descend into the earth. All the things described in the Great Work of Alchemy apparently have to happen to you.(...) The Kundalini-awakening will be a vital part of the Great Work, but on itself without a doubt only a sub-atomic phenomenon, although a potentially
extremely dangerous one." [Otto Reich on the Letters]


Unfortunately their illogical assertion that any non-immortal being is not an alchemist (and your apparent agreement with them in the quote above) seems to prevent any logical discussion of the subject...

And why would that be? ;)


after all, unless you're not sharing some big news with us I don't know of any living multi-centurian gay folk (who just happen to be in contact with some anonymous Parisian netizens). Especially with a matching birth-date. So not only can their assertion that they are immortal not be proven wrong or right, any lack of logical correlation with what has been called alchemy in previous centuries can be claimed by proponents of this theory to arise because the writers of those texts are not immortals! It makes perfect sense! LOL.


"The gay connection to Kundalini, as brought to our attention by the Paris 4, has proven to be a very sensitive subject to some people." [Gary Osborn]


Do you seriously believe there is a secret group of immortals, potentially thousands of years old, who are the only real alchemists? Or are you just yanking my chain?

There is, I believe, not a group, but only one alchemist doing the trick for us

P.S.


By the way, there is so much noise in your posts. True despise is silent (Schopenhauer).:)

Leningrad

leningrad
05-29-2010, 06:49 PM
Long daisy-chains of disparate quotes do not, of themselves, constitute a sound supportive argument - except in the minds of the fundamentalists submitting them.

Theye are disparate to you. ;)


Add to this a tone of religious fervor and a knee-jerk tendency to instantly lash back at anyone who calls into question any given particular of the package-deal belief-system (in an attempt to nurture and safeguard its presumed sacrosanct cultic aura) and what you have is, indeed, something that is in its own special category - as per the consensus of its adherents, who are free to claim that this is the only “real” alchemy - whether the majority of alchemical texts tend toward substantiating their claims or not.


Well, when the real thing comes along, it comes along...


...it is that uppish we-don't-care-whether-you-believe-us, you'll-see-we-were-right-sky under which those Letters are written that makes me trust them. - Impostors are much more sophisticated. And they certainly don't share their insecurities and questions with you in public, like the authors of those letters do.(Jonathan Rice



But it is a bit naïve (or religiously disingenuous) to imagine, realistically, that many on this forum (with a strong emphasis on lab alchemy) are just going to simply roll over and be converted by serving them a smorgasbord of verses with true-believer enthusiasm.

??????????


And they certainly don't share their insecurities and questions with you in public, like the authors of those letters do...(Jonathan Rice)

Have to go now.

Best wishes,
Leningrad.
__________________________________________________ __________________

General Note: Anyone of “visitas” status should think twice before laying into higher ranking members - whatever your initial sense of offense or assumptions of moral high-ground might be. Due diligence is to first familiarize yourself, to some extent, with both the forum in general and the members in particular so that when you speak you have some sense of both the intended audience and the contributions/mind of the person to whom you are responding.[/QUOTE]

Awani
05-29-2010, 06:57 PM
is, I believe, not a group, but only one alchemist doing the trick for us...

Who?

:cool:

Andro
05-29-2010, 07:42 PM
The wise have been silent for so long that I blame all worldly misfortune on them.

Quoth Deviadah, in another thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1559&highlight=fault):


My conclusion can only be that those oppressed, the slaves, must only blame themselves.

Let's assume (for a moment) that I'm 'wise' :eek:

Now, let's assume I opt to share some of my most secret wisdom on this forum.

In response, my shared wisdom gets bashed by forum members who are still in 'slave' mode.
(Although they'll vehemently argue the oppossite and ridicule my shared wisdom)
_______________________________________________

Only the slaves can free themselves. The silence of the wise is most probably not without reason.
The words of the wise are destroyers of worlds (read: comfort zone habits and beliefs).
No wonder the 'slaves' won't listen. Which slaves in their 'right' minds would want their worlds shattered?

However, I hope this will soon change, but not because of the wise coming forth by their own initiative.

Rather as a result of the increasing pressure of necessity, eventually reaching critical mass.

vega33
05-29-2010, 08:14 PM
Robert Monroe (Ulimate Journey) estimated their number at around 600. At least one such encounter is described HERE. I've had a similar encounter myself.

Unfortunately, whether it is Robert Monroe, yourself, or kindred soul's friend, there is no way to prove they are immortal, at least until they die. I could come up to you on the street, show you a copy of a medieval birth registry and claim I was really this person, that I went underground and then changed my name long ago. I could then spout long streams of mystical mumbo jumbo which seems correct on the surface... maybe mix the holographic universe concept with the "its all in your head" idea, throw in some stuff about Kundalini, and voila!

The point is, anyone can claim they are immortal and look mysterious. What are your criteria for determining the veracity of their claims though? Sometimes all it takes is a bit of NLP, a bit of personal rapport with another person -- say the right words, agree with the right statements, and suddenly they impress you. Its easy for rapport and other such tricks to lessen the critical thinking faculty temporarily. Personally, I don't think it likely that real immortals are going to be walking the big city where they need to obtain fake ID's or under the table work in order to survive in day to day society. But thats just my opinion.

Immortal means to live forever, unless someone cuts of your head, or puts a stake through your heart if you're a vampire :D. And while theoretically this would be possible through meditation, correct diet, alchemical preparations, resonance with the cosmos, etc... you're not likely to become immortal just by awakening your Kundalini, let alone through anal sex (which seems to be being hinted at with the description of the prostate and the back passage). Not saying your encounter was invalid, just that it requires more than secondhand or even firsthand experience with someone claiming immortality to prove the veracity of their claims.


I don't subscribe to the suggestion that one should polish their act to fit the mindframe of the audience (regardless of the content of the act itself).
Doing so is the hallmark of artistic mediocricy. I find it more valuable to simply speak one's mind (clearly, if possible).
We're here neither to please, nor to convert. Only to share, hoping to find a few like-minded for mutual learning and enhancement.

I couldn't agree more. This is the reason I originally pointed out the differences between the classical alchemical texts and what the Paris 4 have said - specifically their claims regarding the V.I.T.R.I.O.L. saying, as well as their claim that earlier alchemists were incorrect. I felt it was important to speak my mind clearly to explain how their view and that of the classical texts differed, as well to call into question some of their strange statements about alchemists that had come before them. Rabelais used example and sarcastic good wit to point out the foibles of the church... the Paris 4 need not escape the purifying fires of sarcasm :).


You'd be surprised to know that some true initiatory schools do still exist, but not as openly as in the Greek periods. The very fact that this discussion has provoked some very disturbing reactions should make this self explanatory. If someone told you they were an immortal, you'd likely ask them to 'perform a trick like turning solid metal lead into gold' rather than asking them to impart their wisdom. As for those who still think that alchemy is converting solid lead into solid gold, I am shocked that with this materialistic view, you can even call yourself an alchemist.

I have encountered several such schools, although they never advertise themselves as "the true initiatory schools". But the student going into one of these schools has to do the work in order to attain. If they do not, it doesn't matter what degree they attain, they still lack wisdom/initiation. Even the term "initiatory" merely means to begin... it is possible to begin and then take a wrong path. Initiation doesn't automatically confer knowledge.

As for the lead into gold "trick", I must have momentary amnesia because I don't recall anyone on this forum actually stating that this was their view, or even hinting at it obliquely. Did I miss something in another thread? :cool:


By the way, there is so much noise in your posts. True despise is silent (Schopenhauer).

You should rather say "I find your posts seem to contain to my ears much noise". "There is so much noise" is an assertion of dogma: namely, the objective existence of noise rather than your own misunderstanding of the literary structure and reasoning in my posts as being noise. Ironically, I find large bodies of secondhand quotes by people like Jung and contemporary modern writers containing their opinions of the letters or related topics to be noise myself. So I guess signal VS noise is in the eye/ear of the listener.

I've made my points however and repeating myself or responding to your requests for me to prove what should already be self evident would be a waste of my time, it would indeed be noise. I'd rather move on... we've each stated our own view and I don't feel the need to be convinced by others that the Paris 4 are correct in anything they say.

Fraternally

kindred_soul
05-29-2010, 08:26 PM
Vega33.

Would you like to share with us what your understanding of alchemy is, since, in the manner of Socrates, you are so concerned with correct definitions and the like. And kindly elaborate; I'm sure generations of family wisdom might bring some light to this thread.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

Andro
05-29-2010, 08:53 PM
vega33,

My encounter was astral. The person I encountered didn't need to prove anything, just as I don't.
Mentalizing over it is useless. One would need to experience this himself.

And physical immortality is definitely relative. Some alien races are achieving very long lifespans through cloning and life-extending drugs.
But what good is a physical body if there is no longer a physical plane?

Nothing lives for ever and nothing dies forever.
Some folks just prefer to stick around a little bit longer :)

Oh, and about the 'anal' thing... you're completely off the mark.
In the alchemical context, it has nothing to do with the prostate or with gay sexual interaction.
There's so much more to being gay, you know...

Actually, I suppose you don't :)

Like my friend Ghislain said:


"I wouldn't worry"

:rolleyes:

Awani
05-29-2010, 08:54 PM
In response, my shared wisdom gets bashed by forum members who are still in 'slave' mode. (Although they'll vehemently argue the oppossite and ridicule my shared wisdom)


“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Gandhi

:cool:

Awani
05-29-2010, 08:58 PM
There's so much more to being gay, you know...

I think it need not enter conversation. It is as if I would define myself as a hat wearing person, or a tomato juice kind of guy.

Charles Manson was a vegetarian, but so was Tesla. Although a young man or woman that has just accepted the fact I am sure they must tell the world of their new found position... that is only natural and healthy I guess... but they need to do so only because of the fucked up world we are in.

:cool:

Awani
05-29-2010, 09:04 PM
I'd rather move on... we've each stated our own view and I don't feel the need to be convinced by others that the Paris 4 are correct in anything they say.

Yes, good idea. This is the first thing written in this thread:


Here is a list of quotes on the Forbidden Letters to Philip Gardiner that explain the deeper level of the Bible. The secrets about the Kingdom of God are about alchemy. I would love to have your opinion on those quotes.

When you ask for opinions you sometimes might not get good ones. ;)

I enjoyed it anyway regardless of the letters validity... had not heard of these before...

:cool:

Andro
05-29-2010, 09:04 PM
I think it need not enter conversation.

Yes, it need enter the conversation, as long the default association with implications of homoexuality is 'anal sex' or whatever is going on in bed, for that matter...

Awani
05-29-2010, 09:05 PM
Yes, it need enter the conversation, as long the default association with implications of homoexuality is 'anal sex' or whatever is going on in bed, for that matter...

Yes... I wasn't clear when I posted... not answering you directly;)

:cool:

vega33
05-29-2010, 09:05 PM
Vega33.

Would you like to share with us what your understanding of alchemy is, since, in the manner of Socrates, you are so concerned with correct definitions and the like. And kindly elaborate; I'm sure generations of family wisdom might bring some light to this thread.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

That would be a great topic for discussion, however I'm not so sure it should be tacked onto the end of a thread about the Paris 4, in a forum named subtext. If there is a better thread in another part of the forum that makes more sense, I'd appreciate if someone would let us know.

As far as I'm concerned, the only two sources for our understanding of what alchemy is should be:

1) The writings of the alchemists themselves.
2) Nature and her workings.
to which some might add a third, word etymologies/cabala etc, but this is incidental and must be supported by interpretation of the specific cabala.

By appeal to the alchemists themselves, then, we could for example consult Fulcanelli, who likened alchemy to the study of causes (as opposed to chemistry which deals with effects), and who also suggested alchemy was more like the work of the microbiologist or the farmer than the chemist. We could consult Sendivogius, who explains that the earlier Sages never departed from the simple ways of nature, and that natural generation was a big key to understanding it. We could consult Cyliani with his explanation of the Stone and its health giving effects, as well as his proclamation regarding metallic salts. But all these would only be partial answers.

In my mind then, alchemy is the science which deals with the question of how natural things - including metals, minerals, atoms etc - are generated, how they are preserved, and how they die or transform. This was admittedly the subject of Kirchweger's famous La Nature Devoileé, an alchemical tract containing some great wisdom. In treating of this subject, it must treat of the cause of the generation of bodies, and also the question of what constitutes the life of something living (such as a metal or a tree). Put more simply, if we are treating the cause of the life and generation of things, we are asking what constitutes their spirit, their soul, their body and so on. What constitutes the vital principle that causes them to change. It is this subject that alchemy studies.

The end goal was not only the creation of the Philosophers Stone, but understanding of creation and creator. Much like modern physics should be today, but is not. By understanding what causes matter to form into specific shapes, to self organize, ie the Secret Fire, matter could be manipulated.

This definition then does not exclude the possibility of a spiritual or internal use of alchemy, although it does deny the idea that alchemy is solely concerned with some non physical generation. Alchemy being concerned with what causes birth/death, it is admitted that the Stone may prolong life, but that doesn't mean that every alchemist would choose to use it in this way. They might decide instead that people being corrupt, the best course of action was to go meet their maker instead. Who wants to hang around for hundreds of years and arouse suspicion and envy when much more knowledge might be gained by not fearing that change of form known as death? Think of Dionysus-Osiris, torn apart by the Titans, re-membered eventually... death and resurrection in a more perfected form... coagula must be balanced with solve... but I digress.

The idea that alchemy is associated with natural generation, and that the Artist is merely helping nature to generate something that natural temperatures and environmental conditions would not allow her to do, is supported by the books of the alchemical authors. You can even consult Aristotle who stated in his books that what is left incomplete by Nature is completed/brought to perfection by Art. You could note how in his writings he placed the fifth element of ether between the sun, moon and fixed stars, which is exactly where some alchemists placed their celestial water, and ask what is out there in space that might be classed as a water, flowing between the stars? But few people consult Aristotle anymore.

Awani
05-29-2010, 09:08 PM
That would be a great topic for discussion, however I'm not so sure it should be tacked onto the end of a thread about the Paris 4, in a forum named subtext. If there is a better thread in another part of the forum that makes more sense, I'd appreciate if someone would let us know.

Yes, I'm not sure where this thread should go. Any suggestions?

If a spin-off topic comes up just create new thread elsewhere.

:cool:

Andro
05-29-2010, 09:10 PM
It is as if I would define myself as a hat wearing person, or a tomato juice kind of guy.

Yes, I can clearly remember from high school all the ridicule and verbal bashing of all those hat wearing and tomato juice perverts.

But this is NOTHING compared to what they used to do to vegetarians!
God help us all from the horrors they had to go through, those poor vegetarians...

Awani
05-29-2010, 09:23 PM
I hear what you are saying... but the more someone acts like a screaming moron, the more they attack, the more they fear. Depending on the culture it is equally difficult to wear certain clothes, think certain thoughts, be vegetarian, atheist or even avoid alcohol. These can be met with the same rage as being gay. And in some cultures not.

I lived for a time in the USA, and I can say that they got just as angry at some of my opinions as if I would have been openly gay (it was the Bible belt).

I have friends who come from cultures where opinion, or the custom of dress, is so strict that you get imprisoned if you stray from the path.

:cool:

vega33
05-29-2010, 09:24 PM
vega33,

My encounter was astral. The person I encountered didn't need to prove anything, just as I don't.
Mentalizing over it is useless. One would need to experience this himself.

And physical immortality is definitely relative. Some alien races are achieving very long lifespans through cloning and life-extending drugs.
But what good is a physical body if there is no longer a physical plane?

Nothing lives for ever and nothing dies forever.
Some folks just prefer to stick around a little bit longer :)

Oh, and about the 'anal' thing... you're completely off the mark.
In the alchemical context, it has nothing to do with the prostate or with gay sexual interaction.
There's so much more to being gay, you know...

Actually, I suppose you don't :)

Like my friend Ghislain said:



:rolleyes:

Androgynus,

Perhaps then you'd like to elaborate on what you believe the pointy thing around the size of a child's fist is, or why they mention the "driving out" of the Kundalini fire through the spine.

I'm aware theres a lot more to being gay than anal sex, I have several friends in LGBT community and I'm aware of the many levels of subtlety. You seem to be implying by your statement that I was saying somewhere this is "all there is" to being gay, when in fact I said nothing remotely like this. Sounds to me like you're very personally invested in the topic, and you may need to step back and see what people are really saying.

As far as immortality goes, I'm not going to change my opinion because you had an experience "on the astral". But thanks for clarifying that. I personally prefer to stick in discussion of alchemy to what can be verified by manual or shared experience.

Andro
05-29-2010, 09:50 PM
Perhaps then you'd like to elaborate on what you believe the pointy thing around the size of a child's fist is, or why they mention the "driving out" of the Kundalini fire through the spine.

I can't comment on the 'pointy thing' for lack of personal experience. But maybe I should do an X-ray (I'm not joking!!!)
But there is a certain technique for learning teleportation which at one stage involves ejecting a certain energy from the spine though the top of your head.
To this phenomenon I can attest from personal experience.


I'm aware theres a lot more to being gay than anal sex, I have several friends in LGBT community and I'm aware of the many levels of subtlety.

Well then, good for you and I'm glad to hear it :)


You seam to be implying by your statement that I was saying somewhere this is "all there is" to being gay, when in fact I said nothing remotely like this.

When interpreting some of the gay-related content of the letters, your default association was to prostate/anal sex.
You could have defaulted on the subtleties instead, and attempt to make a connection.
But you didn't.


Sounds to me like you're very personally invested in the topic.

Quoth 'V':


"Your powers of observation continue to serve you well"

:)
_____________________________________________


You may need to step back and see what people are really saying.

Well...


Since I grew weary of the search
I taught myself to find instead.
Since cross winds caused my ship to lurch
I sail with all winds straight ahead.

(Source (http://books.google.com/books?id=Vf8KETLiKXMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Nietzsche+the+gay+science&source=bl&ots=7oUDc8AUvS&sig=e_asPx8OIVmk3mXceO6gRtH3fEE&hl=en&ei=i61tS9flC4LJ_gba3t3LBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false))


As far as immortality goes, I'm not going to change my opinion because you had an experience "on the astral".

I don't recall attempting to change your opinion - au contraire, I very much encourage direct personal experience to verify or discard such matters.


I personally prefer to stick in discussion of alchemy to what can be verified by manual or shared experience.

There are much better suited threads for this, such as this one (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1382), and many others.
_____________________________________________

And FINALLY :)


...the principles alchemy is built on: #1, that its matter is found everywhere.

Remember that song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIb6I8gtgtw) by 'Crowded House'?


Everywhere you go, you always take the weather with you...

Andro
05-29-2010, 10:17 PM
I hear what you are saying...

I hear you, too ;)

Thanks.

LeoRetilus
05-30-2010, 12:00 AM
When interpreting some of the gay-related content of the letters, your default association was to prostate/anal sex.


Andro, I got the same "default association" from that portion of the letters, even if he didn't. And I'll tell you why, somewhere I'm not sure where I first read about it, there are bodies of language or writings that have to do with possibly an ancient practice of actually trying to extend life through the stimulation of the prostate through entry of the wall of the anus, they are not alchemical associations I know that for a fact and they were banned by the church, but just very quickly before I go into more detail I'd like to point out that one does not have to be gay to engage in such, "stimulation", for instance I could have my wife do it for me if I was so inclined, and on a lighter side note , once back in my younger years when I was in the Navy I was drunk in a Mexican bar and a cantina girl offered to do it for me she said she could get me off like no other girl I ever met...well I think you get the point, about what it was that she had in mind.

I found it odd to come upon it here as well in those letters, but the practice was refreshed in my mind the other day while I was playing Dante's Inferno, while you are playing as Dante conquering the 9 levels of hell, you periodically come upon sinners who you will have to decide if they be punished or absolved, of course I absolved every single one of them, but thats neither here nor there, one of the sinners we are told was in hell for the practice of using sodomy to extend his life in an un-natural way, note that the practice of sodomy does not neccessarily denote being gay once again. Also for a frame of reference note that the video game is based loosely on Dante's Divine Comedy and maybe in fact where I first read of this practice or a it could have been a commentary on Dante's Divine Comedy by another period author of the time denouncing sodomy or homosexuality. Please also note that there was so much ignorance among the masses at the time, that the general populace actually construed Dante's Divine Comedy to be part of the Bible and in some areas the church even handed out punishments based on its fictional doctrine and its interpretation of how hells punishment actually was to put the fear of God into its subjects, yes it was all just a work of fiction that some poet made up, although it did encite great fervor among the zeolots of the time because of its religious appeal of postcriptions and prescriptions as it continues to this day. As I said in another thread Dante's Divine Comedy was where Lucifer was first inappropriately equated with the devil or The Adversary, all just the subject of medieval pop culture of the dark ages. But I would be interested to read of a more ancient source describing this practice as well, perhaps something rooted in ancient egyptian lore. Please note as I have said before even if it can be referenced in more authoritative writings than that of some modern day letters or ramblings, that this would not in any way force a connection between alchemy and the formation of a body of glory through activation of the chakras and the forced stimulation of the prostate to cause the kundalini serpent coiled in coccyx to rise and meet with the winged serpent that lies at the crown chakra and activate/open the third eye/pineal gland. The actual production of the stone as it relates to actual laboratory alchemy although it may well extend the natural lifespan of a man as open his third eye as may well the before mentioned practice, nevertheless beyond this point one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. My supporting viewpoint for this is the same of the other thread I spoke of:

..... originally there were 22 Books of Thoth(Greekified as Hermes) just as there are 22 Major Arcana cards that make up the Tarot, upon the plunder of Egypt by the Greeks these books were taken back to Greece and the books fragmented and dissemenated as such: Among the Philosophers the books of alchemy, because there were thought the best equiped to decipher them, however their "scientific" minds and fragmented views about the universe did not allow some of them to see the "big picture", so what they could not explain by their limited understanding of the universe of the day gave way to the realm of superstition and that falacy remains to this day. Among the astronomers the books of celestial observations were given, among the botanists the books on plants, among the occultists the books of Magick and so on and so forth. But the Egyptians did see the big picture thats why they had all the information in the same place and only dissemenated it among the High Priesthood of the Old Kingdom, and so in order to properly untangle the web of half-truths and misconceptions we must reunite this fragmented knowledge, into one modern high priesthood , its all related ladies and gentlemen, alchemy, archemy, spagyrie, sacred geometry, astrology, tarot, radiant energy, pyramids, zero point physics, free energy, anti-gravity, sound, light, the anhk, obleisks, the ark, the sun, the moon, the stars, meditation, kundalini, magick, the pineal gland and DMT and freedom, the understanding of one unlocks the key to another.

So in closing the Books of Thoth that were written in which the subject of those letters may have their roots , the formation of the body of glory were the subject of magick not alchemy just as in other cultures: wheras the Indians have their tantra and sex magick but their alchemy and medicine is held at a distance just as it should be here, lets pull our heads out of our asses and read some more try to be a bit more well versed in what we present and stop being so ignorant please, also if your going to be a newbie on an alchemy site participating with actual practicing alchemists and you insist on presenting your point of view before you have really done any serious searching for yourself, I know , I know there are other threads but I think it be wise if you insist on presenting quote after quote you referance some that are abit more authoritative to alchemy than Philip Gardiner, Jay Weidner , Carl Jung, Born Gay magazine and The Sun Times, and other obscure forum postings by general commenters, just because its written down and discussed somewhere on the internet doesn't make it true, yes, that's not precluding this place.

Andro
05-30-2010, 12:48 AM
Hey Leo,

Thanks for your comments.

In no way has my own interpretation of this thread ANYTHING to do with anal/prostate stimulation.

And the 'gay thing' (which by the way I tend to interpret more as Spiritual Androgyny rather than as homosexuality per se), alludes in my view to the requirement of having your inner polarities (male/female, mental/emotional, etc...) synchronized and not fighting between themselves.

I know straight guys who are quite accomplished in this regard, as well as I know gay guys who lack this balance.

I believe in DIVERSITY and Individuality. There are many great heteros and many gay scumbags, and the opposite is also true.

Genetics DO play a part in our paths, but it's not by far the whole story. You have your certain ancestry, I have my own genetic make-up - but these are only the cards we've been dealt. How we play them is up to us.

I feel completely free to interpret things and be inspired in any way I see fit for my purposes, and if any one is being 'mislead' - well, it's their own fault and they apparently still have many mistakes to make...

Furthermore, I personally extract from this thread a certain very much practical laboratory work which I've been delaying for some time - and now I'm going to finally put it into practice.

Ironically, it has almost nothing to do with the letters (except for a few enhancements), but rather is touched upon in the book written by the authors to whom the letters were sent.

I am also not subscribing to the concept of an external saviour, it would imply to just leave everything where it stands and passively wait for someone to provide us with deliverance. Not my thing.

In addition to that, I already wrote you how much stuff I have going on simultaneously, but there's no Rest in the Quest :)

LeoRetilus
05-30-2010, 12:58 AM
Andro, I knew you had some practical laboratory work planned as a result of your interpretation of this thread, thats what I admire about you, your ability to glean a little bit of truth from everything,.... usually there is a little truth in eveything, even in myths.

leningrad
05-30-2010, 08:22 AM
And BTW - what is it exactly that we want to be 'saved' from?


It is good that, since the publication of the Forbidden Letters, finally at least something plausible can be said about that realm, and thereby about Alchemy. Especially, since that Royal Art seems to revolve around physical immortality, 'and nothing less.'[The Paris 4] - Good, because 'death is a terrible force - make no mistake! Not only physically, but even more psychologically: one is seized, and all that remains is the icy silence of death.'[Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, p. 317](Paul Cambronne-article on the Letters)

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF1501/Heptig/Heptig04.jpg

leningrad
05-30-2010, 08:38 AM
Dear KindredSoul, you wrote:


As for those who died not being alchemists, I feel this means that those who died and were not resurrected, did not manage complete the alchemical work.

A chief theorem in alchemy is nihil extra corpus et nihil post mortem (= there is nothing after death and nothing outside the body [meaning existing in itself/ all is projection by the inner-body-microcosm])

Now, about the words "who died and were not resurrected." That is utterly un-alchemical, no matter what the would-be-alchemists of history would tell you:


Carl Jung, in spite of all his brilliance, completely missed...

'...the deeper level of Resurrection.'[S] And thereby the deeper level of alchemy. Jung describes Resurrection as...

'... a re-establishment of human existence after death.' [Concerning Rebirth/CR hereafter] He failed to see that rebirth and resurrection are one and the same thing.*

[*One is resurrected from the dead, meaning from the not through holy fire (kundalini) reborn, and thereby reborn in that fire. Hence 'through baptism by fire, man, who was before dead, is made a living soul' [aurora consurgens]. The term Resurrection is misleading and was only created by religions who thought we are to be resurrected after our biological death. The correct term would be Erection. From the ones around us not reborn through kundalini-fire.](RFC-article on the Letters)


Best,
Leningrad

leningrad
05-30-2010, 08:48 AM
On the other hand, there are highly accomplished Alchemists here who are not in the habit of posting too much.

Again, an alchemist is he who did what that gay man did in 1986 and after. Produced the stone, had his katabasis in fire, was decapitated, sat out a Lion-ride for several years (Night of the Soul and its aggression impulses *)). Pots and pans don't make you an alchemist. ;)

*) See part 2 of http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_50.htm [sensational IMO].

leningrad
05-30-2010, 08:59 AM
I find their writings to be, as certain others have said on this forum, utter nonsense filled with logical inconsistencies and factual errors not only in their description of alchemical processes...


Can you give like three examples? That won't be difficult if they are filled, as you say, with utter nonsense. Good luck!


I've made my points however and repeating myself or responding to your requests for me to prove what should already be self evident would be a waste of my time, it would indeed be noise. I'd rather move on... we've each stated our own view and I don't feel the need to be convinced by others that the Paris 4 are correct in anything they say.


I thought as much. :D

leningrad
05-30-2010, 09:06 AM
I don't feel the need to be convinced by others that the Paris 4 are correct in anything they say.

Like I said before, people rarely like to read in order to learn, rather they like to read and be confirmed in what they would like to believe. Open minds require more than just brain, your Majesty... ('I don't feel the need to be convinced by others...')

leningrad
05-30-2010, 09:15 AM
The end goal was not only the creation of the Philosophers Stone, but understanding of creation and creator.'

The Stone is apparently produced at the beginning of the Work:


Summarizing the resurrection.

1978 : Pope John Paul (de labore solis = of the work of the sun) comes to power. During his reign 90% of the work of the sun in our gay man is taking place.

March 1986 : testicle-pain starts (the work of the sun starts)

July 1986 : testicle-pain is at his height and stays at his height till a about a week after the resurrection (September 4 1986)

End of august till September 4 1986 : our gay man becomes a child. That is, psychologically during certain minutes. During those minutes, and to his own surprise, he even produces a child's voice. (pupulus nudus means the naked young boy and this reminds us of the words of Jesus too: you must become like a little child again if you want to enter the Kingdom of God.)

September 4 1986 (little after midnight 'silentio noctis' ( in the silence of the night): resurrection.

a) Our man is on the floor on his back. He had his eyes closed during the whole resurrection. A 'thread' (very thin) is closing around his neck. The head is decapitated by that 'thread'.

b) The stone is produced about where the liver is. The stone ignites the Kundalini fire (the fire can actually be heard) and starts to move about, increasingly violently. Fire getting stronger. Arms and legs break into pieces.

c) The snake is driven out. Our friend doesn't know where it went. Up the spine, but after that: no clue. (Into the earth?)

d) The wheel starts to spin and is raised to the forehead.

e) One starts to descend into the earth. After 2 minutes our man 'fell asleep' or passed out in another hypnagogic way. Hypnagogic, because he couldn't remember that moment the morning after. If you lose consciousness you remember. So he 'fell asleep'.

f) 10.30 in the morning. He woke up. Coccyx and back of the head firmly attached to the floor. As said before, it took him about 30 minutes to free himself.

g) September 5 1986 : the top-chakra opens. (Forbidden Letters, part 2, section 12)



In his 1945 Festschrift for Gustav Senn, Carl Jung said that the Stone of Alchemy was 'a great embarrassment to the alchemist, for since it had never been produced, no one could say what it really was.' It was said it was 'born from a living thing' and 'extracted from man,' and 'its connection with immortality was attested from very early times,' but, again, 'no one could say what it really was.'

For Jung the most probable hypothesis was, that that stone represented 'a psychic experience.' This suggests that he indeed missed 'the deeper level of alchemy and thereby of resurrection.'
[de Renzi, Fenelon, de la Censerie]
source: http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_21.htm

:rolleyes:

leningrad
05-30-2010, 09:22 AM
By the way, I too have written an article on those Letters:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_19.htm

;)

leningrad
05-30-2010, 09:26 AM
I hear what you are saying... but the more someone acts like a screaming moron, the more they attack, the more they fear. Depending on the culture it is equally difficult to wear certain clothes, think certain thoughts, be vegetarian, atheist or even avoid alcohol. These can be met with the same rage as being gay. And in some cultures not.

I lived for a time in the USA, and I can say that they got just as angry at some of my opinions as if I would have been openly gay (it was the Bible belt).

I have friends who come from cultures where opinion, or the custom of dress, is so strict that you get imprisoned if you stray from the path.

:cool:

Could you please all stay on topic! A little digression here and there, okay, but posts like this. :confused:

leningrad
05-30-2010, 09:46 AM
Andro, I knew you had some practical laboratory work planned as a result of your interpretation of this thread, thats what I admire about you, your ability to glean a little bit of truth from everything,.... usually there is a little truth in eveything, even in myths.


'I have met and worked with a number of real alchemists here in France. A transmutation of metals was performed in my kitchen fireplace last year with about 25 people present. I have shared with these individuals printed copies of the material you are promoting [i.e., the alchemical theory of the Paris 4/de Beauregard] and, without exception, they read it, laugh and point out that such nonsense is useful because it separates the wheat from the chaff.' Laura Knight-Jadczyk


'The human body is an alchemical body.' [David Gordon White]

'Our man is on the floor on his back. He had his eyes closed during the whole resurrection. A 'thread' (very thin) is closing around his neck. The head is decapitated by that 'thread'.' [The Paris 4]

'Eggelink thinks that the Mahavira pot used in the Pravargya ritual "is the head of Vishnu, the sacrificial man, and sacrificer." So in this ritual the sacrificer's divine body is supplied with its head. (...) In this way the sacrificer becomes immortal.' [Grace Cairns]

'According to Pannikar "God is dead from having created [1992:93]." He "dies in creating his creature; there is no room for two at this level [1992:105]." Thus "man must compose god in order to be able to have immortality [Michaels 2002:343]." - ' [Amina Bubic]

'Man is a mortal God and God an immortal man.' [Corpus Hermeticum]

'I can only say that if you are impressed by this stuff, go for it.' Laura Knight-Jadczyk


In spite of the Bible warning us not to give to the dog what is holy, Paris relentlessly published what they had discovered about Alchemy. This, I'm sure, they could do because they had understood that they were not dealing with a secret here, but with a mystery. A mystery that has apparently been with us for at least 200 generations. (Maud Perkins on the Letters)

A mystery that was not solved till 1986. :)

leningrad
05-30-2010, 10:31 AM
This is what alchemy is about:


'Man is a mortal God and God an immortal man.' [Corpus Hermeticum]


Physical immortality. The body becoming spirit, the spirit becoming body.

:)

kindred_soul
05-30-2010, 03:07 PM
Leningrad,

Tell us what you know about the fifth Kingdom of nature; a true alchemist would most certainly have come across this.

I must corner you a little here and ask you to define exactly what YOU mean by the term 'spirit'; as it is such an abstruse term, and also because alchemically speaking, a body can never become spirit but rather, spirit translates the body (please read the rest of this message to understand why). And please, could you also define the term 'God', because this is also rather vague. I know what my position is on these terminologies, but I'd like clarification on your own understanding of alchemy.

Although I agree with you on many points, I am beginning to feel uncomfortable with your assumption that the secrets of alchemy have only recently been solved; this is most certainly not the case, I can assure you.

The Paris 4 may be the among the first to explicitely describe what alchemy is about, but they are most certainly not revealing anything that has not been deciphered before.

There are many more people who are undergoing or have undergone a 'Kundalini awakening' than you realise my friend, and in true alchemical manner of both fire AND water [as opposed to the confused 'New Age' manner, that knows only of fire (aka 'Spirit'/'Holy Ghost'), but nothing, or very little of the significance of water]. This is why I disagree with there being 'one saviour', unless by that, you mean that saviour being one's self.

I admire the Paris 4 for revealing this information; BUT, I was aware of the workings of alchemy long before I found these letters; they served merely to confirm my findings.

The Forbidden Letters, although valuable, are most certainly not 'gospel'. I hope others on the forum do not begin to feel that the Letters are the only source that will allow them to understand the 'Royal Art', because they are not; there are other great writers who reveal these secrets, but one must look for them.

The Forbidden Letters have demonstrated exactly why alchemy should never be explicitely stated to the masses; it is not given the respect it deserves, because it is so easily given. We can now understand why it is important never to 'cast pearls before the swine'. And the swine have done exactly what 'Jesus' predicted, trampled upon both the pearls, and us. But I suppose the Paris 4 had their reasons for doing this (likely due to the cyclical phase in which we currently find ourselves), so I shall not criticize.

NB: = Jesus Christ, son of God, the Saviour = Iesus Christos Theou Uios Soter (Greek), combining first letters of this Greek sentence = ICTHUS = fish = the Philosopher's Stone - if Jesus (the stone) be lifted up from the earth, he will draw all men to him. Is it any wonder the disciples were 'fisher'men i.e. men who raised the stone, i.e. alchemists :) Do you now see why the secrets of alchemy are as old as time itself, and have been known for equally as long. What the Paris 4 share, is not a revelation, but a confirmation,for those beginning to make progress in the Magnum Opus. Did the man they call Jesus exist? Who knows. Is there an underlying message? Well, that's what this forum is about, is it not ;) But the Bible, without a doubt, is most certainly the most well known of alchemical treatises [ though it is not treated as such, and its symbols are worshipped by the masses]. But I shall avoid ranting about religion.

To quote Bonus of Ferrara:


Were it stripped of all figures and parables, it would be possible to compress it [ the art ] into the space of eight or twelve lines. These are:


The art is noble, brief and easy
It requires one thing which everybody knows
It is many things, yet it is one thing
It is found everywhere, yet it is most precious
You must fix it and tame it in the fire
You must make it rise and again descend
When conjunction has taken place
Straightaway it is fixed
Then it gives riches to the poor
And rest to the weary
The operation is good
If it becomes first dry and then liquid

And to Vega33, thank you for sharing your wisdom :) Aristotle was certainly a wise man, for he stated that there are four noble sciences (astrology, physics magic and alchemy), alchemy being the greatest of them all !

Warmest Regards,

Kindred Soul

PS: As for my use of the term 'resurrection', I meant exactly what you stated [ i.e. a resurrection of the phoenix by the secret fire] but you assumed otherwise.

PPS: I just read your article and feel you and I may have the same understanding of alchemy. Nevertheless, a thorough explanation of the above definitions would be appreciated; please elaborate on your position, so we know exactly where it is that you stand.

Andro
05-30-2010, 04:26 PM
There is nothing after death...

To comprehend this statement, one needs to understand the Philosophical meaning of 'Nothing'.

Try to switch the emphasis:

NOTHING is real

nothing IS real

nothing is REAL
________________________________________________


...and nothing outside the body... meaning existing in itself/all is projection by the inner-body-microcosm

Couldn't agree more (with myself :D)

Awani
05-30-2010, 09:55 PM
Physical immortality.
Is immortality not just a pipe dream... and perhaps even not something to really strive for. I don't see physical immortality as something to dream about, yes perhaps a longer healthier life... but forever? Man, that would be a bummer.

The spirit is immortal anyways.. why be bound to the body? To me this is too materialistic...

:cool:

leningrad
05-31-2010, 08:56 AM
It seems the Paris 4 are extremely well versed alchemists.



Dear Kindred-Soul,

Thank you for your post. And yes, do corner me. :)


Leningrad,

Tell us what you know about the fifth Kingdom of nature; a true alchemist would most certainly have come across this.

I'm not an alchemist. An alchemist is he who expercienced the things that gay man of the Letters experienced. The Fifth Kingdom is simply a name for the Kingdom of God believed to be transcendental. [ see http://bibleprophecyfulfilled.org/art8fifth.html for instance] And hence not existing. (nihil extra corpus et nihil post mortem.)


I must corner you a little here and ask you to define exactly what YOU mean by the term 'spirit'; as it is such an abstruse term, and also because alchemically speaking, a body can never become spirit but rather, spirit translates the body (please read the rest of this message to understand why).

Nobody knows what spirit actually is. These quotes tell us that it is needed. It is perhaps produced in the crown-cakra:


9.


'At length the body is compelled to resign itself to, and obey, the union of the two. That is the wondrous transformation of the Philosophers, of body into spirit, and the latter into body, of which there has been left to us by the sages the saying: Make the fixed volatile and the volatile fixed, and in this you have our Magistery.' [Dorn/quoted by Jung]

10.

'It is significant for the whole of alchemy that in Dorn's view a mental union was not the culminating point, but merely the first stage of the procedure [ see section 1 of
http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters2.htm ]. The second stage is reached when the mental union, that is, the unity of spirit and soul, is conjoined with the body.' [Jung](Dewasme-article)


And please, could you also define the term 'God', because this is also rather vague. I know what my position is on these terminologies, but I'd like clarification on your own understanding of alchemy.

I would agree with this definition (RFC-article):


'The transformation of energy and the elixir of life refer to the Self, the ordering and unifying center of the total psyche, the central source of life energy, the foundation of our being, which is most simply described as God.' [Edward Edinger in Ego and Archetype/edited by RFC]

Hence 'Man is a mortal God, God an immortal man.'(Corpus Hermeticum)


Although I agree with you on many points, I am beginning to feel uncomfortable with your assumption that the secrets of alchemy have only recently been solved; this is most certainly not the case, I can assure you.

I have corresponded on the Letters with an estimated 40 people over the last three years, people who all have studied alchemy for many years, and nobody ever found the details from Paris described in alchemical texts. Here is a telling discussion on a Forum, quoted in the Magnus Strom-article:


13
Quotes from a discussion on the Letters on a Forum:

Originally Posted by LSVPA

"My only issue with this is that none of this is information that cannot be found, in more detail, in many places. Still, I welcome a discussion on the points talked about in the original emails."

The answer by a forum-member:

"I've studied alchemy for over twenty years and there are many things I've never seen in literature.

The (1) decapitation by a thread for instance. Is that in literature?
The (2)metallic like wheel in the decapitated head?
The alchemist (3)being attached to the floor at two points?
The (4)child's-voice?
The (5)details on John the Baptist?
And the (6)stuff on the tree being planted in the garden where one waits for the fruit? That's wonderful alchemical allegory I've never discovered before myself and never saw discussed anywhere either in literature.
The (7)endtime-pope-alchemy-code (I've never seen anyone discover that)?
That homosexuality (eight) is a requirement for alchemy?
That (9) the stone of transmutation ignites Kundalini?
The (10) part on (public) Mark chapter 14, verse 51?
The (11) stuff on the 120 BCE manuscript?
The (12) Caephas-VITRIOL-connection?
The fact (13) that the 7th chakra is to open first, and not last, and to stay open alone for many years?
The (14) amazing theory (which makes sense) that the main characters in Parzival are one and the same person?
The (15) stuff on the ovarium/testicle?
As well as the (16) stuff on the footwashing, including the tale on the son of God having a foot fetish of some kind?

Again, where can this all be found? Let alone in many places."

The answer by LSVPA:

"Welcome to the wonderfull world of doing your own research. Like I said, discussion on the original emails would be just fine. I'm not about to do 16 in depth searches to find information on the things that you posted... you can do that yourself. Also, due to the vagueness of many of your points, it would be nearly impossible to find something that would satisfy them. Others are plainly obvious, IMO.

I merely said that what was contained in the emails linked to by your original post contained very little novelty; the information has taken its rounds online, in some cases, for many years.

Another issue is the highly symbolic nature of your 16 points. Anyone can throw on their own ideas. As can you. And if you look a certain way, everything that has ever been written can be broken down into 16 parts.

Point 1, for example, can be a simple masonic trick of making perfect slices in granite with a heated wire.
2 is a subset of 1, left-over wire curled under the extreme phase change (quick cooling). Or how about Hutchinson's effect?
3: Feet.
4: Blavatsky's voice in the silence.
5: What details specifically?
6: all encompassing meta-metaphor. Obvious.
7: ?
8: Androgyne as exalted IAO.
9: Hardened bindu raised.
10: Don't have the gospels nearby.
11: ?
12: ["confused"]
13: Says who?
14: Indra's net.
15: What 'stuff'? This is about as vague as vague can get.
16: Simple ANKH metaphor.

This 'stuff' can be found all throughout historical and religious texts, in analogies of biology, chemistry, physiology, hell, even in carpentry manual. Its boundless by nature, but classified and separated in literature, and with experience becomes re-connected."

I traced that thread through google two years ago, and the discussion ended in LSVPA simply quiting the discussion because he/she could not demonstrate where all this 'stuff' actually could be found. Because it didn't exist in texts before 2005, the year in which the Forbidden Letters were published. And the nonsense in LSVPA's reaction (ibid. below) is demonstrating this in a most amusing way of course:


Point 1, for example, can be a simple masonic trick of making perfect slices in granite with a heated wire.
2 is a subset of 1, left-over wire curled under the extreme phase change (quick cooling). Or how about Hutchinson's effect?
3: Feet.
4: Blavatsky's voice in the silence.
5: What details specifically?
6: all encompassing meta-metaphor. Obvious.
7: ?
8: Androgyne as exalted IAO.
9: Hardened bindu raised.
10: Don't have the gospels nearby.
11: ?
12: ["confused"]
13: Says who?
14: Indra's net.
15: What 'stuff'? This is about as vague as vague can get.
16: Simple ANKH metaphor.

:)


The Paris 4 may be the among the first to explicitely describe what alchemy is about, but they are most certainly not revealing anything that has not been deciphered before.

See my LSVPA-remarks above.


There are many more people who are undergoing or have undergone a 'Kundalini awakening' than you realise my friend, and in true alchemical manner of both fire AND water [as opposed to the confused 'New Age' manner, that knows only of fire (aka 'Spirit'/'Holy Ghost'), but nothing, or very little of the significance of water]. This is why I disagree with there being 'one saviour', unless by that, you mean that saviour being one's self.

This quote might be of help:


"Reading the Forbidden Letters, all of a sudden the mystery seems solved why Kundalini-awakenings in the past didn't lead to physical lightbodies and physical immortality. And why, in teachings on alchemy, that lightbody was gradually turned into an after-death-body and physical immortality into
soul-immortality or a prolonged life. (Only certain Tamil schools still stick to their teachings on physical immortality.) - Because a Kundalini-awakening is not yet the Work of the Sun. You apparently need the whole thing. To produce that stone, to be decapitated, to have that wheel
raised in the head and to descend into the earth. All the things described in the Great Work of Alchemy apparently have to happen to you.(...) The Kundalini-awakening will be a vital part of the Great Work, but on itself without a doubt only a sub-atomic phenomenon, although a potentially
extremely dangerous one." [Otto Reich-article]


"We're awaiting the Stone."(saying in Alchemy)


I admire the Paris 4 for revealing this information; BUT, I was aware of the workings of alchemy long before I found these letters; they served merely to confirm my findings.

You were aware of the fact that the Stone is produced 'about where the liver is?' And that, while descending, a 'metallic like wheel is raised in the head of the alchemist?' The why do you write sentences like this:


I must quote Christian Rosenkreuz' crypt before I make a mad dash. In this word, are revealed the entire secrets of this art:

VITRIOL: "
Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem ("Visit the Interior Parts of the Earth; by Rectification Thou Shalt Find the Hidden Stone.")

Because the Stone is not found in the earth, according to the Letters, it is produced before the katabasis into the earth, and 'about where the liver is.' Yet you say the Letters 'merely served to confirm' your findings (of the past/Leningrad).


The Forbidden Letters, although valuable, are most certainly not 'gospel'. I hope others on the forum do not begin to feel that the Letters are the only source that will allow them to understand the 'Royal Art', because they are not; there are other great writers who reveal these secrets, but one must look for them.

Could you quote from these great writers, especially since they seem to know more than the Paris 4 (their Letters not being 'gospel').


The Forbidden Letters have demonstrated exactly why alchemy should never be explicitely stated to the masses...

They have demonstrated that the so called alchemists of the past were either posers, or tragical seekers.


The Forbidden Letters have demonstrated exactly why alchemy should never be explicitely stated to the masses it is not given the respect it deserves, because it is so easily given. We can now understand why it is important never to 'cast pearls before the swine'. And the swine have done exactly what 'Jesus' predicted, trampled upon both the pearls, and us. But I suppose the Paris 4 had their reasons for doing this (likely due to the cyclical phase in which we currently find ourselves), so I shall not criticize.

There has never been an alchemical secret. Only a mystery. One can only say that the alchemcial secret existed for 19 years, i.e. between 1986 and the year of going public with 'September 1986.' That year being 2005. Maud Perkins has understood this:


"In spite of the Bible warning us not to give to the dog what is holy, Paris relentlessly published what they had discovered about Alchemy. This, I'm sure, they could do because they had understood that they were not dealing with a secret here, but with a mystery. A mystery that has apparently been with us for at least 200 generations."(Perkins)


NB: = Jesus Christ, son of God, the Saviour = Iesus Christos Theou Uios Soter (Greek), combining first letters of this Greek sentence = ICTHUS = fish = the Philosopher's Stone - if Jesus (the stone) be lifted up from the earth, he will draw all men to him. Is it any wonder the disciples were 'fisher'men i.e. men who raised the stone, i.e. alchemists :) Do you now see why the secrets of alchemy are as old as time itself, and have been known for equally as long.

With all due respect, but your knowledge on alchemy appears quite superficial. As I have written in my article on the Letters, quoting Jung:


Take for instance the Christ-fish-stone-parallel. Jung knew that the alchemical fish 'was a symbol for (...) the stone.' [Jung] And that there is nothing to suggest 'that that fish is of a Christian origin.' [Jung] Because 'it derives from Pliny.' [Jung]

Then you say:


What the Paris 4 share, is not a revelation, but a confirmation,for those beginning to make progress in the Magnum Opus. Did the man they call Jesus exist? Who knows.

This can be found in the Letters too. It is not enough to only skim them, you know...


Then, a general remark of extreme importance: the gospel never took place. We do not know whether a man called Jesus ever lived, it's not important, but the gospel never took place.(The Paris 4)

Next you say:


PS: As for my use of the term 'resurrection', I meant exactly what you stated [ i.e. a resurrection of the phoenix by the secret fire] but you assumed otherwise.

No. You wrote otherwise: ;)


"As for those who died not being alchemists, I feel this means that those who died and were not resurrected, did not manage complete the alchemical work."(emphasis and underscore/Leningrad)

(On : "One is resurrected from the dead, meaning from the not through holy fire (kundalini) reborn, and thereby reborn in that fire. Hence 'through baptism by fire, man, who was before dead, is made a living soul' [aurora consurgens]. The term Resurrection is misleading and was only created by religions who thought we are to be resurrected after our biological death. The correct term would be Erection. From the ones around us not reborn through kundalini-fire."(RFC-article on the Letters))

Best wishes,
Leningrad.

leningrad
05-31-2010, 10:12 AM
Many people, in the worldwide discussion on the Letters, ask themselves, where did the 'kernels of alchemy' of the past come from, if that gay man is the first alchemist?

Allow me to quote from the John Fox article.


6.

"Behind the veil of all mystical allegories of ancient doctrines, behind the darkness and strange ordeals of initiations, under the seal of sacred writings, in the ruins of Nineveh, on the crumbling stones of old temples, and on the blackened visage of the Assyrian Sphinx, in the monstrous paintings which interpret to the faithful of India the inspired pages of the Vedas, in the cryptic emblems of our old books on alchemy, in the ceremonies practised at reception by all secret societies, there are found indications of a doctrine which is everywhere the same, and everywhere carefully concealed." [Eliphas Levi]

7.

"But whatever the authors and artists were concealing, they were at the same time concealing their ignorance too. Because no matter how packed the symbol, how sublime the emblem, the key to the universal doctrine these symbols pointed to was lacking. This is clearly shown in the Forbidden Letters." [Jay Reed Armstrong(JRA)]

8.

"The preeminent question now is: who gave us that alchemical doctrine? The answer to this question can, in my opinion, only be given through good old Jungian psychology: it was the Self, the same force that composed the fifth of Mahler and painted the Mona Lisa, the [in the words of Edward Edinger/Fox] 'ordering and unifying center of the total psyche, the foundation of our being, most simply described as God' who gave us these teachings. A God who then made sure that the key to those teachings stayed concealed."[JRA]

Awani
05-31-2010, 11:08 AM
Many people, in the worldwide discussion on the Letters, ask themselves, where did the 'kernels of alchemy' of the past come from, if that gay man is the first alchemist?

I am sorry but I can't take anything seriously, I loose concentration with all this gay/straight business in the letters. Honestly I find it silly, since my view is that we are ALL a little gay whatever powers gay people have (if this is true), then we all have it. If there are faults with being gay (then we all have those faults, some more than others).

:cool:

leningrad
05-31-2010, 11:38 AM
I am sorry but I can't take anything seriously, I loose concentration with all this gay/straight business in the letters.

Well, if you loose concentration, then, I guess, it's best not to post. ;)

leningrad
05-31-2010, 11:38 AM
Homosexuality is only a small part of the stuff treated in the Letters. Take a look at the this beautiful part on the Solar Wound in the Breitner article for instance:


Part 3 - The Golden Thigh
Introduction
'In any case, after this fight with Set, but in the same ceremony, Horus hands the thighbone of a sacrificed ram to his father who is symbolically present, and says, "Behold, I plucked the thighbone from Set." Yet, it was not Set's thighbone, but his testicles that were taken from him. At this point in the ceremony, the thigh seems to have become a disguised or surrogate genital.'[2002:668]

'Our gay man is, as we wrote earlier, Anfortas too. Meaning that he has that mysterious pain in his left testicle. That pain started a few months before his Kundalini. It is described by von Eschenbach in his Parzival. Especcialy the part about the wound getting cold as ice is correct (there is no visible wound on our gay man though). During the months that lead up to the resurrection the pain gets worse and worse. In the end he had difficulties of walking even. This pain made it impossible for our man to have sex. And there we have the famous sperm-saving-theory from Tantra. '[The Paris 4/verbatim]

'In Plato the kundalini power is especially embodied in semen.'[2002:209]

'Semen is the raw material and fuel of every psychochemical transformation.'[David Gordon White]

http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/Sperm-egg.jpg

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________



In his October 2007 article on the Forbidden Letters at World Mysteries Guido Popp discusses the Solar Wound of the Grail King, meaning the alchemist. That wound, according to myth, can be found in such places as the foot, the thigh or the groin.

Through the Forbidden Letters we now have strong reasons to assume that the thigh is indeed a disguise for the genitals. And Wolfram von Eschenbach appears again to be the only one with the correct details here: the wound is in the genitalia.

This displacement of genital to thigh 'occurs frequently in Grail myth'[2002:669] and apparently has antecedents in older myths about the Solar Hero. In ancient Greece for instance the Golden Thigh of Pythagoras was also a Solar Wound in disguise. As Walter Burkert informs us:

'Antiquity understood this Golden Thigh as a sign of divinity, but we find no explanation of just how this is so.'[1972:159]

And then Burkert all of a sudden gives this on the Solar Wound:

'The myths tell over and over of the favorite of the Great Mother being wounded in the thigh, as also of the thigh wounds of those who attempt to make their way into the underworld. Only he who bears this sign (i..e. the testicle-wound) can descend into the pit with impunity.'[1972:160/emphasis and underscore added]

There.

Most scholars are of the opinion that these myths point to fertility, where they actually point to the road to terrestrial Paradise. McEvilley:

'If this reading of the mythologem is correct, then the thigh wound, which, as Burkert noted, allows the visitor to enter Hell, is a symbolic castration wound indicating that this individual no longer has the power to create life (fertility-motif/Breitner), and therefore may suitably enter the land of the dead.'[2002:669]

Because for most people, unfamiliar with alchemy as they are, a katabasis (descent) into the Underworld or Hell is not a katabasis into Rebirth, the End of Time and Life Eternal, but a katabasis simply into 'the land of the dead.' - However, in one, very old Indian myth the Thigh is linked to the End of Time and in quite an alchemical way on top. In Harivamsa's story of the offspring of the sage Aurva, Aurva produces...

'...from this "thigh" the flame that would burn up the world at the age's end.'[1953/emphasis added] - And that ax, according to Matthew 3, 'is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit' will be cut down and thrown into that 'flame.'

'It is strange that, as Eleazar says, this earth is mingled with fire.'[Jung]

'Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes." - '[Gospel of Thomas 10]

'You, Christ, who are all fire, have mercy on me.'[Ephraem the Syrian, quoted by Jung]


Outstanding!

Andro
05-31-2010, 11:50 AM
Leningrad,

In your opinion, is it to be concluded from the letters that we are better off putting our quest to rest and paciently waiting for the saviour to reveal himself?

I also think that responding to almost every question with quotes is not very constructive for this discussion, and I would rather prefer a more personal type of involvement.

Quotes can be used to validate or invalidate just about everything.

In the end, I think it's ultimately self-knowing and direct personal experience that matters.

I think it's great that you've brought these letters to this forum.

I also think that it's up to every individual to extract from the letters what he intuitively feels would be constructive to his path.

I know I have...

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 11:55 AM
So Lenigrad:

What is your purpose ? Are you trying to convince us that some random man is 'the one and only' that can save us all ?

Please tell us.

I agree with Androgynus; rather than quote the letters and the replies of others, could you please discuss your own personal opinion - I trust you have not 'sold your soul', so to speak, to the Paris 4.

As for quoting the writers I know, I shall not; your responses have demonstrated that there IS a lot that you do not know, and I am unwilling to share a lot of the information that I have - I have nothing to prove. My only wish is that speculative alchemists can begin the operative aspects of the work. Each will uncover the secrets in their own time. I am merely here to 'throw the pebbles'; hints here and there, so that would be alchemists can begin their search, along the right lines, in earnest. Human nature is such that what is easily received is not valued. So let's not disgrace alchemy by describing it all in such a candid manner; this, I can never approve of, unless it is done by 'word of mouth'. Socrates, as well as many of the previous alchemists, it seems, may have held the same position. This knowledge is NOT for the masses; why ? Are you willing to take responsibility for someone's permanent admission into a psychiatric unit; I hope you know the risks of an uncontrolled fire. Many a soul has lost their mind toying with this cosmic fire.

So with all due respect, please have a little tact here. Kundalini is not something you awaken 'for the fun of it'; again, this is not speculative, but experiential knowledge. And I am far from being the only one undergoing this trial by fire, which is why I can never agree that this fellow is the first alchemist, unless of course, this is once again, allegorical.

I am curious though; if you claim you that you are not an alchemist, then what is your purpose here ? To convince us to blindly follow the Paris 4 ? I hope you realize that this can never happen, as some of us on the forum have well developed critical thinking faculties, and it takes more than a little excitement to convince us that something is true; even if is, a thorough investigation is always required; it is for this reason that the Vedantists declare, 'doubt, and you shall be saved!'.

To quote what another forum member in this (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?p=9635#post9635) thread:


"Leningrad:

Your mind is unwittingly serving as the host/shell for a viral meme.

According to the logic of viral replication, our rational/critical faculties must first be bludgeoned into capitulation by a steady stream of quotes from the "sacred" texts and their sanctioned, supportive commentaries - so that we, in turn, might accept, host, and broadcast said viral-meme as a whole information packet, as you are doing.

What you obtain in return is the comfort that comes from believing that all the answers to life are found, all worked out, in one tidy place - and the relief that accompanies the sense of being absolved from having to further grapple, in individual dialectic, with the ambiguity, paradoxes, complexities, and multiple frontiers of life - both on your own and in genuine dialog with others.

But such a position, however good it undoubtedly feels, is imaginary - and not truly secure...".



Kindred Soul

Ab Roek
05-31-2010, 02:31 PM
In these "Forbidden Letters" we find some truth, mixed with some things that are misleading, mixed with outright fabrications.

There are good reasons why the older alchemical adepts did not write explicitly. Exempli gratia, what was written down (hence concealing while revealing) was meant to be distributed publicly. The object of written writings was to plant and harvest seeds. Spoken communication is in entirely another class, with different objectives and much different results. There are other types of personal communication.

The same general points apply to this forum.

I found Philip Gardiner's reaction to the "Forbidden Letters" interesting.

"No, there are no links to the completely fraudulant Paris 4 on this website because it has all come from within the mind of one deluded and intimately psychotic and bipolar individual. Those who take it all seriously are being deluded themselves by a psychotic individual, which strangely attracts other psychotic individuals. Beware of the trap. Others have walked blind into it. "

http://www.gardinersworld.com/content/view/74/57/


Fidelity
AB RK

Andro
05-31-2010, 02:49 PM
Therefore, I personally pefer to focus on the truth I'm able to extract and discern (according to my current level) and leave the rest aside (for now) :)

But automatically discarding the whole thing is not very wise IMO.

I also find it very interesting that by introducing a controversial factor, an automatic 'screening' process is initiated, regardless of the content of the material in which the controversial factor is introduced.

I'm also considering getting Gardiner's book...

;)

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 03:33 PM
Quoted:



The Spirit of Translation is the Lord who moves at ends of cycles in all kingdoms alike translating their forces to the quality of being next to be attained...by evolving through ages in progression of the mineral qualities, vegetable characteristics, animal propensities, and human self, man is called to take his next degree...

Some will understand.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:02 PM
Leningrad,

In your opinion, is it to be concluded from the letters that we are better off putting our quest to rest and paciently waiting for the saviour to reveal himself?

Not only in my opinion:


There is nothing any of us can do that would change the metaphysical destination of our world in general, or of any human being in particular. It is very important to realize that the alchemical process is utterly autonomous. [Mariette]


I also think that responding to almost every question with quotes is not very constructive for this discussion, and I would rather prefer a more personal type of involvement.

Nothing wrong with quotes, as long as they do their job. It's about what a text contains.


Quotes can be used to validate or invalidate just about everything.

If they are the right quotes. And if they should validate, and indeed validate, or should, instead, invalidate, and then invalidate, then everything is peachy.


In the end, I think it's ultimately self-knowing and direct personal experience that matters.

And what if you and I have no direct experience? If, in other words, we were not decapitated, and had not a wheel raised in our head?

I conjecture that you're just irritated by by the quotes because they reveal the ignorance of the members on this Forum in the field of alchemy.


I also think that it's up to every individual to extract from the letters what he intuitively feels would be constructive to his path.

That he can day-dream, that's what you mean. And if I then come in and ruin those day-dreams with nasty quotes, then you start complaining the way complained in this post.

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:23 PM
So Lenigrad:

What is your purpose ? Are you trying to convince us that some random man is 'the one and only' that can save us all ?

Actually, that is what I think, that, not a random man of course, but that gay man is the salvator macrocosmi. My purpose is to have that thought falsified. But nobody succeeded here.


I agree with Androgynus; rather than quote the letters and the replies of others, could you please discuss your own personal opinion - I trust you have not 'sold your soul', so to speak, to the Paris 4.

I have not sold anything. I have studied alchemy for over 20 years, and you didn't. Like you said in a PM to me:


Dear Leningrad,

Twenty years! Wow.


As for quoting the writers I know, I shall not; your responses have demonstrated that there IS a lot that you do not know, and I am unwilling to share a lot of the information that I have - I have nothing to prove.

You have nothing to prove? Then I suggest you read this thread again, in particular post # 105, a post spelling 'left, right and center.'


My only wish is that speculative alchemists can begin the operative aspects of the work.

And you wrote 'It seems the Paris 4 are extremely well versed alchemists.' ???


Each will uncover the secrets in their own time.

The 'secrets' are in the Letters.


I am merely here to 'throw the pebbles'; hints here and there, so that would be alchemists can begin their search, along the right lines, in earnest.

And where would we be without you... ;)


Human nature is such that what is easily received is not valued.

Who ever came up with the idea that truth is degraded when it is communicated in public? Right, 'priests' of all sorts. Posers. Among them: would-be-alchemists.

People who are not hiding secrets, but their own ignorance.


This knowledge is NOT for the masses; why ? Are you willing to take responsibility for someone's permanent admission into a psychiatric unit; I hope you know the risks of an uncontrolled fire. Many a soul has lost their mind toying with this cosmic fire.

Nobody can do anything with those Letters. The Grail cannot be invited.


I am curious though; if you claim you that you are not an alchemist, then what is your purpose here ? To convince us to blindly follow the Paris 4 ? I hope you realize that this can never happen, as some of us on the forum have well developed critical thinking faculties

You don't even have the courage to answer my questions in detail, the way I answer your questions in detail. See #115 in particular.


and it takes more than a little excitement to convince us that something is true; even if is, a thorough investigation is always required; it is for this reason that the Vedantists declare, 'doubt, and you shall be saved!'.

All that nonsense. Doubt and you shall be saved. It's the Stone that saves. The Vedantists were at best passing on things they didn't understand themselves. At best!'

Greetz,
Leningrad.

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 04:29 PM
Leningrad,

I'm 24 years old [ I entered medical school in London, aged 18; I mention this, in case you start doubting I can be this young and be a medical doctor]. By the time I reach your age, I shall be far more mature than you have demonstrated. It was a private message for a reason; you don't see me quoting what you said to me now, do you ?

Good luck with 'saving the world' by trying to shove your apparent wisdom into people's faces. How do you feel when Jehovah's Witnesses turn up at your door and scorn you for not believing in their God; what they say might very well be true, but the manner in which they perform their duties, is oftentimes repulsive - you should be ashamed that 20 years of 'experience' has taught you nothing about human relations. In fact, I'm ashamed for you. You are one of those chaps who has lived one year twenty times over; in reality, therefore, you have merely a year's experience. Woe to you.

If you want people to listen to you, there are better ways to go about it. And insulting the very people who have defended you in earlier posts, is most certianly not how it is done.

You're an embarrassment to what alchemy stands for. Please do us all a favour, and stop quoting these so called 'sacred writings'; not sure you have realized, but we can all read. And if we decide, we can read the 'Forbidden Letters', and their responses, in our own time, without your constantly rude and offensive reminders.

I wish you all the best on your quest.

Warmest Regards,

Kindred Soul

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:33 PM
In these "Forbidden Letters" we find some truth, mixed with some things that are misleading, mixed with outright fabrications.

I've read that several times in different words. But no examples. Give examples, good man!



I found Philip Gardiner's reaction to the "Forbidden Letters" interesting.

"No, there are no links to the completely fraudulant Paris 4 on this website because it has all come from within the mind of one deluded and intimately psychotic and bipolar individual. Those who take it all seriously are being deluded themselves by a psychotic individual, which strangely attracts other psychotic individuals. Beware of the trap. Others have walked blind into it. "

You mean you liked it because you would like to get rid of the alchemical theory of the Paris 4. No doubt. I, on the other hand, found some other reactions interesting too:


...and those, like Philip Gardiner, who think the Letters are the product of...

'... a fraudulent and psychotic individual'.*

[* 'Ironic that these words are written by someone who clearly displayed pathological tendencies all the time I knew him. His need to tell total lies to impress were without question pathological. I can honestly say I have never met anyone like Gardiner.' [Gary Osborn](de la Censerie-article on the Letters]

&

Newsletter 2 on the Forbidden Letters
by Paris 4
Paris, October 2007

Dear Mr. Osborn,
Dear Gary,

We discovered why Philip called us fraudulent and psychotic in the summer of 2006. Two weeks after we first contacted you in 2005 we received an email by somebody from Phil's Forum who warned us and said Philip couldn't be trusted. That worried us of course. You too warned us that Phil couldn't be trusted (plagiarism). We decided to put him to the test by inventing a character, meaning a second alchemist. A person claiming he had the same experience our gay man had. We used the Latin text as a spill, that person saying 'I'm pretty sure I live in the same town as your gay man.' - This was daring of course, because we don't know whether possibly more alchemists exist at this moment.

And we didn't want to blur the knowledge we sent to you on alchemy. But then we all decided that a possible second alchemist is not a threat to the alchemy itself and had our fictional alchemist mail Philip. It then showed, we still regret to say, that Philip did not past our little tests: he produced two fabrications and twice didn't do what he promised to do.

Last week we found out that this little email-correspondence was the reason he later called us fraudulent and psychotic. Because he contacted the British Secret Service (you know about that) through a friend who then checked our IP's. And of course every email (including the one by our fictional alchemist) came from one and the same city, being the city of our secretary. And they all came from about 10 public different computers. So it was discovered that IP's of the Paris 4 were matching the very IP's of the fictional alchemist. And then he jumped to his conclusion.

Now, the conclusion was partly correct: that second alchemist didn't exist, but we were surprised that

a) he didn't contact us to confront us (was his request to the Secret Service illegal and that the reason why he couldn't disclose his info?)

b) he didn't understand that the fictional alchemist could have used the same public computers we used (after all, that fictional alchemist already said in his mail that he was pretty sure he was in the same city as our secretary).(The Paris 4)

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:36 PM
I'm also considering getting Gardiner's book...

;)

I don't know.


In December 2006 I purchased a copy of the Serpent Grail by Philip Gardiner and Gary Osborn. The book that had caused the Paris 4 to post the Forbidden Letters. After having read both the Letters and the Serpent Grail I soon agreed with Arthur Musing that the Serpent Grail indeed did not hold the truth behind the Grail and the Elixir of Life as the authors had promised on the cover of that book. (A book dangerously leaning on shamanism in my opinion, because, as Kenneth Humphreys points out, the shamans, like any other priest or witchdoctor, lived 'on the backs of others ever since people started living in groups. Given this venal motive of these 'religiously inclined' we would be wise therefore to exercise caution before buying its product, or accepting its claims.')

But back to the Serpent Grail. Was that book, as Musing wrote too, nonetheless the best possible introduction to the Forbidden Letters because of the, what he called, secondary information it contained? I regret to say it was not. I've studied the book carefully and there is no secondary information on the Grail and the Elixir of Life that couldn't be found in long published other books. The book as a whole didn't even help me understand the alchemical theory of the Paris 4, like the response articles on World Mysteries did. In particular the ones by Hanno Temming, Otto Reich and Jonathan Rice. To put things elegantly: Arthur Musing had been very kind to Gardiner and Osborn is his little review-quote on the Serpent Grail in the Rice-article.

The core-theory of the Serpent Grail is, I'm afraid, even quite risible.

'Reading Gardiner's [The Serpent Grail] manuscript, his initial insight was that to cure or heal others, the ancient shaman or tribal witchdoctor would mix snake's venom with snake’s blood. The venom can kill, but the blood of the snake acts as an antidote to the poison and neutralises it, and so it was found that both mixed together would create a potent substance that, when swallowed, could cure most or all diseases.

However, Gardiner’s angle was that the mixture of both the snake venom and blood was perhaps the original ‘elixir of life’ and this is what made his thesis refreshing and exciting.

In his original manuscript Gardiner stated that these two properties of the one snake were mixed in a ‘human skull cap’ – adding that this “bowl” was possibly the origin for the Holy Grail vessel.' [Gary Osborn]

Risible, because, as all true experts on the Grail know, and Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince pointed out in an interview...

'...the vessel idea of the Grail was not its original form. The first tales either didn't describe the mysterious Grail as anything in particular, or had it as a stone.'

Risible, because the single serpent of Asclepius of medicine, the one that also represents the shamans and witchdoctors of Gardiner, has absolutely nothing to do with the intertwined serpents of the Caduceus of Hermes, who represent alchemical transformation and the Elixir of Life, being a by-product of that transformation in the body of the successful alchemist.

In other words, Gardiner and Osborn had failed to see that the Elixir of Life is produced in the lightbody of the victorious alchemist (the Shining One), i.e. man deified. That it is a purely microcosmic elixir therefore, and not a macrocosmic one, meaning one mixed in a skull for instance and presented to some patient. In yet other words: the Elixir of Life is not swallowed, it is exclusively produced and consumed in the body of a triumphant alchemist.

Needless to say that Gardiner and Osborn were ignorant then too about the true nature of the Philosopher's Stone. To give an example from their book:

'As von Eschenbach says, this stone is called the Grail. But how can we look upon something that is within ourselves? Clearly, we are not to take this literally.' [italics by me]

Because through the Forbidden Letters we know now that the Stone of Transmutation is indeed a real stone. That it...

'...grows from flesh and blood...'[Jung]

...that it...

'...is produced about where the liver is...'[The Paris 4]

...and that it is...

'...even pointy and about the size of a child's fist.'[The Paris 4]

That it...

'...ignites the Kundalini-fire...'[The Paris 4]

... and that the Phoenix is a metaphor for the alchemist in that fire. [see footnote 2](de la Censerie-article)


:(

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:41 PM
Leningrad,

I'm 24 years old [ I entered medical school in London, aged 18; I mention this, in case you start doubting I can be this young and be a medical doctor]. By the time I reach your age, I shall be far more mature than you have demonstrated.

????????


It was a private message for a reason; you don't see me quoting what you said to me now, do you ?

There is nothing private about a WOW!


In fact, I'm ashamed for you. You are one of those chaps who has lived one year twenty times over; in reality, therefore, you have merely a year's experience. Woe to you.

Ego!!! All hat ego!


If you want people to listen to you, there are better ways to go about it. And insulting the very people who have defended you in earlier posts, is most certianly not how it is done.

I have not insulted you. I've merely poked. You have to much ego.


You're an embarrassment to what alchemy stands for. Please do us all a favour, and stop quoting these so called 'sacred writings'; not sure you have realized, but we can all read. And if we decide, we can read the 'Forbidden Letters', and their responses, without you forcing us to do so.

I force you to be in this thread? :confused:


Kindred_Soul, could you quote me where I did it?
Or answer my original questions? You are only yelling here nonsenses.

That's her way of 'discussing' Horticult.

But this is not all:


You're an embarrassment to what alchemy stands for.

Unlike Kindred_Soul of course:



Wow,

Horticult has demonstrated that he is completely and totally clueless about alchemy. This is actually pure comedy, because the fellow does not even know the first letter of this art ! Joy !

Enough said; am no longer replying to this buffoon. And this has sealed my lips even tighter. I wish we could re-open the mystery schools so that idiots like this would never be given the chance to voice their absurd speculations, then claim to 'know'.

What a complete idiot; I feel sorry for the chap.
Toodles! Perhaps horticult should stick to horticulture, and away from true alchemy.
Your mind is truly deranged and I hope you get a full mental assessment from a top psychiatrist so you can be locked up. (...)

I knew fools like you in school; they spoke a lot, but when questioned, were exposed as impostors. If I was you, I would shut up.

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 04:45 PM
Leningrad,

I have an ego, yes, as most human beings do. You are absolutely right. But is not called a quest ?

But you cannot deny that you do not have one either; who is the one who gets upset when others don't worship the letters of the Paris 4 ?

Regards,

Kindred Soul

Ab Roek
05-31-2010, 04:46 PM
I've read that several times in different words. But no examples. Give examples, good man!
...
You mean you liked it because you would like to get rid of the alchemical theory of the Paris 4. No doubt. I, on the other hand, found some other reactions interesting too:

First, the examples you requested.
1. Something true in the "Forbidden Letters" : "your Stone is Christ"
2. Something misleading in the "Forbidden Letters" : the Stone is produced in the liver.
3. An outright fabrication from the Letters : the man the Paris 4 called "our gay man" was the first alchemist, all before him being only unconscious participants in the mystery.

Second, your twisting of my words to the effect that "You mean you liked it because you would like to get rid of the alchemical theory of the Paris 4"-- try sticking to what I write, instead of serving up what you project onto what I write, if you genuinely expect communication to occur.

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 04:51 PM
Ab Roek:

By the looks of it, Leningrad does not want to communicate at all; he simply wants us to accept these letters as doctrine.

But since he is lacking in communcation skills, all he has done is managed to repel the very people he might have been able to convince, had he been gentle and persuasive, rather than forceful, rude and so incredibly crass.

Regards,

Kindred Soul

Hellin Hermetist
05-31-2010, 04:52 PM
So that is the topic about the immortal gay saviour of the new century.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 04:53 PM
Hellin Hermetist,

Way to break the ice; sure as hell made me laugh :)

Welcome to our lovely thread :D

Kindred Soul

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:55 PM
Leningrad,

I have an ego, yes, as most human beings do. You are absolutely right. But is not called a quest ?

But you cannot deny that you do not have one either; who is the one who gets upset when others don't worship the letters of the Paris 4 ?

Regards,

Kindred Soul

I get upset? :confused:

Andro
05-31-2010, 04:55 PM
There is nothing any of us can do that would change the metaphysical destination of our world in general, or of any human being in particular. It is very important to realize that the alchemical process is utterly autonomous.

I completely agree. The way I see it, the Quest of the Artist, in this case, is not to initiate/generate the process (which is, indeed, autonomous and built into the design), but to accelerate its unfolding - by Art.


I conjecture that you're just irritated by the quotes because they reveal the ignorance of the members on this Forum in the field of alchemy.

You conjecture wrong. Much like a daydream :)

I am not in the least irritated. I just hoped you would also have a more personal experiencial base to share.

It's common for exoteric bible-thumpers to answer every question with quotes. Of course, their quotes are the 'right' ones, as well...


And what if you and I have no direct experience?

Then we should wait for having personal experience before taking the whole lock, stock and barrel for granted. Otherwise, it's just a belief.

Don't get me wrong, my personal experience so far has been of great assistance to me for extracting from the presented material what I needed to learn at this specific point in time.

I've read much material related to many topics, one of my main interests being astral/out of body travel. The thing is, I started to have astral experiences long before I read any books about the topic - and when I finally did read certain materials, I was amazed to find exact descriptions of non-physical 'locations' I had visited long before reading the books.

I simply prefer to trust myself above anything else.

One of my favorite sayings is:

'I am the Lord My God, and I shall have no other Gods before MySelf.'

I do not deny the possibility that everything you quote is true. Hey, everything's possible :)

But if I were to automatically accept the whole thing before experiencing it personally, it would be just another belief system.

Such as you believing that I'm irritated :cool:
____________________________________________

Actually, I'm very glad for this controversy. It helps bring forward many previously unadressed issues. For this I am genuinely grateful.

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:56 PM
First, the examples you requested.
2. Something misleading in the "Forbidden Letters" : the Stone is produced in the liver.

How do you know that? By the way, they say 'about where the liver is.'


3. An outright fabrication from the Letters : the man the Paris 4 called "our gay man" was the first alchemist, all before him being only unconscious participants in the mystery.

How do you know Paris is wrong here?

leningrad
05-31-2010, 04:58 PM
So that is the topic about the immortal gay saviour of the new century.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I can see you will enrich this thread. :rolleyes:

(Have to go now.)

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 04:58 PM
This is silly,

Warmest Regards,

Kindred Soul

Andro
05-31-2010, 05:10 PM
...the immortal gay saviour of the new century.

For all we know, it might as well be me :)

Maybe I'm hiding something... Maybe I'm still probing the territory before making an official entrance...

Quoth 'HeShe' in the Monroe Encounter (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1418):


"I try to amuse, and confuse, with contradictions."

But there's really no way to know, is it?

Just a thought...

;)

kindred_soul
05-31-2010, 05:18 PM
Androgynus,

Hilarious reply. :)

Kindred Soul

leningrad
06-01-2010, 08:25 AM
Then we should wait for having personal experience before taking the whole lock, stock and barrel for granted. Otherwise, it's just a belief.

Well, we might close 90% of the threads in this Forum then:

"Belief: 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence."


I simply prefer to trust myself above anything else.

And so do I. Next to the 20 years of reading on alchemy I did. ;)

leningrad
06-01-2010, 08:32 AM
This is silly,

Warmest Regards,

Kindred Soul

What is silly?

And another thing. You called a member of this Forum a mini-Mussolini. But if there is one mini-Mussolini on this Forum it's you:



1)Enough said; am no longer replying to this buffoon.

2)I wish we could re-open the mystery schools so that idiots like this would never be given the chance to voice their absurd speculations, then claim to 'know'.

3)What a complete idiot; I feel sorry for the chap.


4)Toodles! Perhaps horticult should stick to horticulture, and away from true alchemy.


5)Your mind is truly deranged and I hope you get a full mental assessment from a top psychiatrist so you can be locked up. (...)[emphasis mine]

6)I knew fools like you in school; they spoke a lot, but when questioned, were exposed as impostors.

7)If I was you, I would shut up.

I think it is you who has to see a psychiatrist. The way things are out of proportion here. Your rage, really.

leningrad
06-01-2010, 08:41 AM
Androgynus,

Hilarious reply. :)

Kindred Soul

Oh, so hilarious! What if we would all laugh our heads off. We might get stones by that. Who knows.

Hellin Hermetist
06-01-2010, 10:54 AM
For all we know, it might as well be me :)

Maybe I'm hiding something... Maybe I'm still probing the territory before making an official entrance...

Quoth 'HeShe' in the Monroe Encounter (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=1418):



But there's really no way to know, is it?

Just a thought...

;)


So Androgynous is the immortal saviour and Leningrad is his prophet. Now the whole thing begins to make sense. :cool:

kindred_soul
06-01-2010, 12:08 PM
This is actually too funny,

He was being sexist and fascist leningrad, so yes, he does deserve to be called a mini-Mussolini. You, the same person who asked him to leave, are now defending him. You actually don't care about principles - you just want to be right, at all costs. You don't care who's on your side, as long as you're bloody right and everyone worships the Paris 4. As they say in Brooklyn, 'get outta here!!'.

Hilarious.

Oh, and let me stoop to your level and quote your message:

Dear Kindred Soul,

2012...

This will warm your heart:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/Phili...letters_52.htm



P.S.

And don't quit the Forum. Come back and tell the members that you did so because I was on my knees...

We need you!


And even after you sent this, I decided not to quote your message but said a member of the forum asked me to return because of the resources - I let you save face. But right now, I actually don't care.

And also, this is the same guy who said earlier, 'where would we be without you..'.

What a complete and utter chode.

Bye Leningrad - good luck with having some real, rather than imagined experience.

Lol.

My message, 'hilarious reply' was to Androgynus because it WAS hilarious. He tried to calm things down by making a funny comment. And it worked, cos it was funny. I'm actually laughing right now, because you haven't even had a Kundalini awakening, and you're yapping for nothing. For all you know, there might not be such a thing as Kundalini awakening. Look, some of us have actually had (or are having) one, and can talk from experience, so please, let the men do the talking, and Kundalini isn't always what it's cracked up to be [ i.e. instant, rapid (in the so called twenty minutes you have described),effortless enlightenment ] and is often painful as hell, with occasionally wildly erratic and confusing behaviour - experience it yourself to find out - until you've had one, you can't talk about it, because up until that point, it's only a belief. Lol.

You've demonstrated ignorance in so many areas but I've preferred to let you save face. You know what, walk in your ignorance since you know it all. Physical age makes no difference in this game my friend. Some will understand. And 20 years means nil, if you are looking in the wrong places; after 20 years, you couldn't even raise the serpent. Some of us actually have the stone you're so desperately looking for :) And some of know experientially about water and fire, rather than rambling about it based completely on the evidence of 4 French blokes. However right they may be Leningrad, they have experienced it. But guess what - you haven't!

And last I checked, reading and 'experience' doesn't do it - you've wasted a lifetime buddy; almost a quarter of a bloody century.

Tick...tock...

Ciao!

:)

Green Lion
06-01-2010, 12:27 PM
Hi Leningrad


I mean, the Paris 4 do not degrade heterosexuality, but what if it is true? Truth doesn't come and ask some member of a Forum: do you like me? My experience tells me that most people don't like to learn, or not too much, when they read in general. They like to see their own ideas more or less confirmed. If they are not confirmed, they simply move on to another book or article.
It is exactly the same thingas you make. You do not even try to understand the possibility that the letters of Paris 4 have nothing to do with the alchemy.

That's not what the Paris 4 say. It's a '20-minute-job-or-so' in which one is really decapitated, albeit in the subtle body.
The term of beheading can be simply only a personal and subjective description of what the gay man felt. No other text of yoga speaks about beheading in the phenomenon of rise of Kundalini. Both traditions in which we speak about beheading are the Taoism in which the beheading corresponds to the end of menstrues at the woman who practises correctly the Tao and the alchemy in which we read that it is necessary to cut the head of the crow.

I think it's an art for only one man, the Saviour of the Macrocosm. The salvator macrocosmi. He can then transform us by his, what David Gordon White calls ' limitless powers.'
It is a messianic concept, but in no way alchemic. The authors indicate all that two types of persons can finalize the alchemic Work: those who have the gift of God and those whom an Adept guides.


To all seekers: I don't think one can invite oneself to the Grail. The Grail invites you.
Graal is a recent concept, it dates only first works on the Arthurian cycle. We cannot base themselves on Graal to explain the alchemy.

For the alchemist the vessel is something truly marvellous: a vas mirabile. Maria Prophetissa (a.k.a. Maria the Jewess/Rice) says the whole secret lies in knowing about the hermetic vessel. It must be completely round.' [Jung]

27.
'The body is the vessel.' [Musing]
The Work is done in a human body, not in a laboratory.
Jung was not an alchemist. It is better not to base itself on its texts to try to understand the alchemy because we get lost there rather than the other thing.


It is produced in the liver, the Paris 4 say. And alchemy was never understood as an internal process, because it's a Latter Day process. Nobody had a clue. They took the metaphor for the real thing. They read about lead (meaning DNA-man) and gold (meaning Lightbody-man) and then mused about real lead and real gold. The only thing they demonstrated by that is that they were in the dark about the Work. And how could they know why people are decapitated in alchemical texts? Because that is done once only at the extreme end of time.
The fact of believing that the beheading in the texts of alchemy will take place only in the end of the world because we do not understand its meaning is a not sense. The beheading well takes place in alchemy, this very day, if we know how to realize it. It is about a process of separation, simply. The use of a sword to make it indicates the use of a Martian energy which allows to obtain it. The Martian energy is a fire bound to the iron. It is for it that we often see swords surrounded with flames or with swords the blade of which is the shape of wave. It is the water fire, that we have to use (a salt) and the iron presence allows this clear separation in two parts of a material body.


There are kernels of alchemy in myth and religion, but they are not understood. Once you have read the Forbidden Letters and the response articles on those Letters, the mystery is solved:
On the contrary, Forbidden Letters adds some confusion because they demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of the alchemy.

'As for the [Forbidden] Letters, I am concerned that this may be some kind of fulfillment of the Hendaye Cross. The final secrets of alchemy will be released before the end of time.'

[Jay Weidner, author of 'A Monument to the End of Time: Alchemy, Fulcanelli and the Great Cross']
Even there, the cross of Hendaye was completely badly understood. Fulcanelli did not speak about the end of time of the temporal point of view, but about the allegorical point of view. The end of time is the fixation of time, the use of forgery of Saturn which congeals the time. It is the application of the (allegorical) cold which creates a particular phenomenon: the appearance of Spiritus Mundi.


Originally Posted by TheParis4
We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts. The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.
All the authors indicate that it is necessary to visit at first the earth before finding the Philosopher's stone. Here, it is Paris 4 which is mistaken, quite as the gay man. To visit the inside of the Earth, it is to penetrate into the center of the material. To penetrate into it, it is necessary to congeal it in a state of opening. And it is in this state that the germ of the Philosopher's stone, the Light imprisoned into the material, can show itself. Once this germ shows, the work of the alchemist is to make it grow and to feed it, to obtain the Philosopher's stone.

Like I said, if you spend 2 or 3 days studying those Letters and the response-article, you will know what Alchemy is about.
Graal is a symbolic object used in the Arthurian cycle. But its link with the Philosopher's stone was made only later. And this link does not exist in alchemical treaties. Thus to speak about Graal has nothing to do with the alchemy itself.

Green Lion
06-01-2010, 12:28 PM
I personally trust that theory. The alchemcial process is utterly autonomous. Because: performed by the God within. And he will have everything he needs, no doubt.
It is this quotation which is funny. It is enough to read any work of alchemy to see that the Elixir Vitae is one under product of the Philosopher's stone. It is not absolutely internal, but very external.


'It may well be a prejudice to restrict the psyche to being 'inside the body.' In so far as the psyche has a non-spatial aspect, there may be a psychic aspect 'outside the body,' a region so utterly different from 'my' psychic space, that one has to get outside oneself or make use of some auxiliary technique in order to get there. If this view is at all correct, the alchemical consummation of the royal marriage (...) could be understood as a synthetic process in the psyche 'outside' the ego.' [Jung, MCars 410]
Jung is not a recognized authority as regards the alchemy. The cucurbite, quite as the retort, are many necessary devices in alchemy. The royal marriage well takes place in a glass balloon in wet way.

To transmute this substance, its two parts, Sol and Luna, King and Queen have to be wed. Jung assumed that this marriage was a 'synthetic process in the psyche 'outside' the ego.'[Jung, MC, pars 410] This realm outside the ego is already discussed by Maud Perkins in section 12 of http://www.world-mysteries.com/Phili...letters_25.htm. But what exactly did Jung mean by that realm 'outside the ego'? He was referring there to 'the microcosmic space of the psyche,'[pars 410] that space possibly being 'a whole world in itself, a macrocosm.'[pars 412] Yet, 'the fact that one can get into this territory (...) does not mean that it belongs to me personally. The ego is Here and Now, but the 'outside-of-the-ego' is an alien There. Both earlier and later, before and after. So it is not surprising that the primitive mind sensed the psyche outside the ego as an alien country, inhabited by the spirits of the dead. On a rather higher level it takes on the character of a shadowy semi-reality, and on the level of the ancient cultures, the shadows of that 'land beyond' have turned into ideas. In Gnostic-Christian circles these (ideas) were developed into a dogmatic, hierarchically arranged, cosmogonic and chiliastic system which appears to us moderns as an involuntary, symbolic statement of the psyche concerning the structure of the psychic non-ego. This region, if still seen as a spectral 'land beyond', appears to be a whole world in itself, a macrocosm. If, on the other hand, it is felt as 'psychic' and 'inside', it seems like a microcosm of the smallest proportions.[Jung, MC, pars 411 et 412]
'Whoever wished to commit this (alchemical/Cambronne) act (...), would therefore have to get outside himself, as if into an external glasshouse, a round cucurbita which represented the microcosmic space of the psyche.' [Jung, MC, pars 410] In the words of the Paris 4 from one of their 'ridiculous Letters' [Knight-Jadczyk]:

'If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.' [The Paris 4]
The real moon, sun and earth are philosophical, but material too. Philosophical means modify by the Art of Alchemy. But the philosophical sun is just the seed of gold : a real thing that could be found in lead for example (see Vigenère’s Particular).

The Forbidden Letters are the conclusion to alchemy, as some writers on alchemy have said to Gary Osborn. In Other words, they have understood that Alchemy was a mystery before September 1986. There were kernels, but that was all. Nobody new the actual 'scenario.'
Who are this “alchemists” ? I don’t know any great alchemy practitioner who said this Forbidden Letters are the conclusion to alchemy.

Dumezil conjectured that the Titan Prometheus stole not the chemical fire for our ovens, but the fire of immortality. Zeus then punished him for this by having him bound to a rock while a great eagle (central bird in Alchemy representing Spirit) ate his liver every day, only to have it grow back to be eaten again the next day.'[Jos Winter on the Forbidden Letters]
The fire of Prométhée is not the vulgar fire. But it is not either Kundalini. The fire of Prométhée is a water fire, it is Spiritus Mundi under material shape.

The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside.(Paris 4)
The Stone is not in the human body. We can find a material in the human body which can give the Stone. But for it, it is necessary to extract it and to cleanse it outside. But the alchemists having worked above are rare. The great majority of the alchemists indicate that to find the Stone, it is necessary to look in the reign of metals and in him only. We can read Jacques Tollius to realize it (but there are many of the other authors who agree with him).

This all means hat there is only one Stone per alchemist, meaning per universe
There is a Philosopher's stone by subject. And there are many subjects on Earth. Caution not to be transferred in the anthropocentrism. The Man is important, but it is not everything. The Universe would exist, even without the presence of the Man.

Because the Stone is the foundation of the microcosm, it is the foundation of the macrocosm too en hence ubiquitos in the macrocosm. The macrocosm is a product of the microcosm, not the microcosm a little mirror of the macrocosm. Macro is only projetion. Micro the projector:
Not in alchemy. The alchemy indicates that the microcosm is the mirror of the macrocosm and not its projector.

But then I looked at their conception that VITRIOL meant the opposite of what it actually signifies. By their definition the chicken would be created and then it travels into the center of the egg, or the man is born outside of the body and then climbs right back in his mothers maw. Statements like this are just ridiculous, they don't require that much critical analysis to see how they deviate from the description of the work by previous generations of authors, or how they deviate from Nature's processes.
What is ridiculous, it is to imagine that to visit the earth means returning in her literally.

Green Lion
06-01-2010, 12:30 PM
You keep forgetting that those ´previous generations´ were not alchemists. An alchemist is he who does the things that gay man did between 1986 and now.
It is sure that if we give faith the gay man to describe, there is only he who is an alchemist. Because no text of alchemy describes the work as him. From my part, I line up in the opinion of the alchemists, not of the gay man which demonstrated nothing.

Again, Vega, your classical authors were all in the dark. An alchemist is he who produces the stone, is decapitated, etc... Latter Day phenomena.
I would say rather that it is the gay man that is in the black. He gives too much faith to his subjectivity and does not accept the fact that all the classic authors contradict him and that they are right.

Their point of departure is not dogma, but experience. They attack dogma. ('The alchemy-writers were quite mistaking here.')
The unconscious experiment is only some powder with the eyes which the ego gives us. A real alchemist verifies by the experiment what the classic authors indicate. And he questions when it does not stick. The gravity is not a dogma, it is a natural law. The alchemy studies the nature and tries to use its laws to go towards the purity.

Whoever died was not an alchemist, the Paris 4 say. And that includes your 'serious alchemist' too.
Then to be sure that Paris 4 is right, let us wait 200 years to see if the gay man dies or not. At the moment, he proved nothing.

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

82. Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the (Father's) kingdom."
It is not here about physical immortality, but about immortality of the soul and the spirit, the bridegrooms together.

2.13
'I too have approached several alchemists about the Letters, and they all have been in favour of them; that what is being divulged in them is true. One said that the secrets of Alchemy are no longer secret. Simple as that." [Gary Osborn on July 12 2007/bolds and underscore added by me]

Who are these alchemists? Did they really have a practice in the laboratory? If yes, to where? I also know alchemists (or who say to themselves alchemists) but who made nothing that to read and to make some small experiments without understanding anything. We cannot base themselves on this kind of persons to judge a text.

So basically what you are saying is that people such as the Cosmopolite, Michael Sendivogius, Flamel, Philalethes, Ripley, Starkey, the author of the Most Holy Trinsophia, Artephius, Pontanus, Hortulanus, Aristotle and many many other authors who are our sole guide as to what alchemy and the Stone are - are all incorrect because they died, and that in fact all the classical authors never produced the Stone and therefore shouldn't be trusted because - they died! right? That they can't have made the Stone if they're dead?
Exactly.
Very funny. Wait the death of the gay man and we will be hilarious.

"The gay connection to Kundalini, as brought to our attention by the Paris 4, has proven to be a very sensitive subject to some people." [Gary Osborn]
Some people perhaps, but not by the indian masters…

Furthermore, the claim that Kundalini awakening causes immortality would seem at odds with the accounts of many yogis, published and unpublished... but then again maybe all of them are wrong and the Paris 4 just happen to be right.
Right:
Very funny too.

Unfortunately their illogical assertion that any non-immortal being is not an alchemist (and your apparent agreement with them in the quote above) seems to prevent any logical discussion of the subject...
And why would that be?
Because it contradicts all the alchemical texts. We cannot thus base themselves on these letters to speak about alchemy …

A chief theorem in alchemy is nihil extra corpus et nihil post mortem (= there is nothing after death and nothing outside the body [meaning existing in itself/ all is projection by the inner-body-microcosm])
Where from comes this quotation? If it is a key theorem of the alchemy, he must be possible to quote an author, no?


Again, an alchemist is he who did what that gay man did in 1986 and after. Produced the stone, had his katabasis in fire, was decapitated, sat out a Lion-ride for several years (Night of the Soul and its aggression impulses *)). Pots and pans don't make you an alchemist.
And what has said the gay man don’t make him an alchemist…


The Stone is apparently produced at the beginning of the Work:
Apparently, according to the gay man. But if we read the treaties of alchemy, it is the end of the work … Another incoherence of Forbitten Letters …

Green Lion
06-01-2010, 12:31 PM
A mystery that was not solved till 1986.
You think so, but all the alchemists don’t think so.

Physical immortality. The body becoming spirit, the spirit becoming body.
Alchemy is about the secret of the Life and Nature. Physical immortalty is not the meaning of alchemy.


I'm not an alchemist. An alchemist is he who expercienced the things that gay man of the Letters experienced. The Fifth Kingdom is simply a name for the Kingdom of God believed to be transcendental. [ see http://bibleprophecyfulfilled.org/art8fifth.html for instance] And hence not existing. (nihil extra corpus et nihil post mortem.)
An alchemist is a person who seeks for the Philosophal Stone. An Adept is the alchemist who had this Stone. The gay man has nothing and has proved nothing.

Nobody knows what spirit actually is. These quotes tell us that it is needed. It is perhaps produced in the crown-cakra:
The Spirit is well defined in the Dzogchen texts. Consciousness is the Key to understand what Spirit is. The Spirit is not produced because if something is produced, it will be destroyed.

The (1) decapitation by a thread for instance. Is that in literature?
No, because decapitation is not done by a thread but with a water fire.

The (2)metallic like wheel in the decapitated head?
No, because the head of crow is black an amorphous.

The alchemist (3)being attached to the floor at two points?
No, because alchemy is not a human process but an external process.

The (4)child's-voice?
No, because there is nothing to do with alchemy.

The (5)details on John the Baptist?
No, because alchemy is not Christian but universal.

And the (6)stuff on the tree being planted in the garden where one waits for the fruit? That's wonderful alchemical allegory I've never discovered before myself and never saw discussed anywhere either in literature.
There are a lot of tree allegories in alchemical treatises. The author “Agricola” spoke a lot of the alchemical tree.

The (7)endtime-pope-alchemy-code (I've never seen anyone discover that)?
Because that has nothing to do with alchemy.

That homosexuality (eight) is a requirement for alchemy?
Because that has nothing to do with alchemy.

That (9) the stone of transmutation ignites Kundalini?
Because that has nothing to do with alchemy.

The (10) part on (public) Mark chapter 14, verse 51?
Because that has nothing to do with alchemy.

The (11) stuff on the 120 BCE manuscript?
No proof.

The (12) Caephas-VITRIOL-connection?
Misunderstanding of Vitriol symbolic in alchemy.

The fact (13) that the 7th chakra is to open first, and not last, and to stay open alone for many years?
In Indian yoga, the first chakra has to be open before the others. It is capital.

The (14) amazing theory (which makes sense) that the main characters in Parzival are one and the same person?
Because that has nothing to do with alchemy.

The (15) stuff on the ovarium/testicle?
Because that has nothing to do with alchemy.

As well as the (16) stuff on the footwashing, including the tale on the son of God having a foot fetish of some kind?
Ridiculous.


"Reading the Forbidden Letters, all of a sudden the mystery seems solved why Kundalini-awakenings in the past didn't lead to physical lightbodies and physical immortality. And why, in teachings on alchemy, that lightbody was gradually turned into an after-death-body and physical immortality into soul-immortality or a prolonged life. (Only certain Tamil schools still stick to their teachings on physical immortality.) - Because a Kundalini-awakening is not yet the Work of the Sun. You apparently need the whole thing. To produce that stone, to be decapitated, to have that wheel raised in the head and to descend into the earth. All the things described in the Great Work of Alchemy apparently have to happen to you.(...) The Kundalini-awakening will be a vital part of the Great Work, but on itself without a doubt only a sub-atomic phenomenon, although a potentially extremely dangerous one." [Otto Reich-article]
There is a big mixture between the alchemy and the obtaining of a body of light. However proof there are still traditional lineages which demonstrated that some of their masters finalized spiritual work, we can quote the lineage Bön Dzogchen. The last body of rainbow seen concretely by several hundreds of persons took place in 1935. There were others since, the last one having taken place in 2005. Thus say that no other person that the gay man realized the body of light is ridiculous. The gay man demonstrated nothing. These Tibetan masters demonstrated this control of the spiritual Awakening in front of several witnesses (Shardza Rinpoche made it in front of more than 200 persons). But this has nothing to do with the alchemy. Bön also has an alchemical tradition. But the Philosopher's stone serves only a support to the spiritual way itself, it is not self-sufficient to itself. It is also what indicate the treaties of Rasa Shastra ( Indian alchemy).

Because the Stone is not found in the earth, according to the Letters, it is produced before the katabasis into the earth, and 'about where the liver is.' Yet you say the Letters 'merely served to confirm' your findings (of the past/Leningrad).
According the Letters, and only according the Letters. All the alchemical treatises said that vitriol is before the Stone…

Could you quote from these great writers, especially since they seem to know more than the Paris 4 (their Letters not being 'gospel').
Read Limojon de Saint-Didier, Jean D’Espagnet, Artephis, Pontanus. These are great authors. All their texts have to be read.

They have demonstrated that the so called alchemists of the past were either posers, or tragical seekers.
They have demonstrated nothing because the gay man has demonstrated nothing…

With all due respect, but your knowledge on alchemy appears quite superficial. As I have written in my article on the Letters, quoting Jung:
Your knowledge on alchemy is superficial because you quote Jung…

Many people, in the worldwide discussion on the Letters, ask themselves, where did the 'kernels of alchemy' of the past come from, if that gay man is the first alchemist?
And what is the Letters about if the gay man is not a real alchemist ?


And what if you and I have no direct experience? If, in other words, we were not decapitated, and had not a wheel raised in our head?
And if this experiment has nothing to do with the alchemy? And so simply, a real proof is that what we experiment corresponds to the texts of alchemy and not to the ramblings which we find in Letters?


I conjecture that you're just irritated by by the quotes because they reveal the ignorance of the members on this Forum in the field of alchemy.
We are simply irritated because these Letters have nothing of alchemical and because you try to make them be supposed to be for the only authentic sources concerning the alchemy. You tell to have studied the alchemy during 20 years, but all that you quote results only from Letters or from Jung … It has nothing of alchemical.

Actually, that is what I think, that, not a random man of course, but that gay man is the salvator macrocosmi. My purpose is to have that thought falsified. But nobody succeeded here.
If, but you do not want to accept it.

The 'secrets' are in the Letters.
No, they are in the Nature, not in the wild imaginings of a gay man.

All that nonsense. Doubt and you shall be saved. It's the Stone that saves. The Vedantists were at best passing on things they didn't understand themselves. At best!'
You thus studied all the texts of Vedanta? Bravo …


And so do I. Next to the 20 years of reading on alchemy I did.
Reading is not sufficient. You have to practice to have a start of understanding.

Andro
06-01-2010, 05:02 PM
Bön also has an alchemical tradition. But the Philosopher's stone serves only a support to the spiritual way itself, it is not self-sufficient to itself.

I find the Bön traditions (especially 'dream yoga') very interesting when accompanied by an alchemical tradition as well.

In addition to all that has been written here, I'd like to add my personal opinion that physical 'immortality' is not something to be desired.
If this is one's ultimate goal, then one is a density addict...
No problem with living a long and healthy life, but I view the death of the physical body as a much welcome release from the bounds of dense matter, a graduation of sorts.

Physical birth can be much more 'traumatic' than physical death. :eek:

It's like comparing graduation from high school to the first day in first grade...
__________________________________________________


Caution not to be transferred in the anthropocentrism.

Furthermore, I think that the 'anthropocentric' concept is either a misnomer, or simply not well understood by either its advocates or its prosecutors.

Quoth Kabir:


"All know that the drop merges into the ocean, but few know that the ocean merges into the drop."
_______________________________________________


The alchemy indicates that the microcosm is the mirror of the macrocosm and not its projector.

I don't see it as a question of whether the macro projects the micro or viceversa. This is a very linear, unidirectional and limiting distinction IMO.
________________________________________________

I would say it's enough to grasp the philosophical meaning of 'Nothing' to also understand the equally elusive nature of 'Something', followed by consciously integrating the notion of the Infinite Mercurial In-Between - the Universal Spirit, Language and 'Platform' which by itself creates, maintains and permeates all possible realities.

Quoth Paracelsus:


The wisest of the philosophers, Mercurius, [...] called the Stone an orphan.

solomon levi
06-01-2010, 06:39 PM
To say that alchemy is allegorical is true;
but to assume that it is allegorical to one thing alone, kundalini/creation of the
light body, etc, is an error. The allegory can be applied to many levels like
astrophysics, or quantum/sub-atomic, or hormonal, or mineral...

As above, so below...

There is plenty of evidence that there are materials produced in laboratory
alchemy that awaken kundalini. I've experienced this myself, though it wasn't
my first awakening (which was produced hormonally, energetically, raising energy
from the basal seal/chakra up the "spine").

The Essene and David Hudson both speak of this referring to ingesting
"white powder gold"/m-state.


My point is, one doesn't exclude the other, necessarily. And that the allegory
can apply to several levels or aspects. After all, we're talking about energy, no
matter which "alchemy" we recognise as "true".

I've enjoyed the thread. :)
sol

vega33
06-01-2010, 09:12 PM
'As for the [Forbidden] Letters, I am concerned that this may be some kind of fulfillment of the Hendaye Cross. The final secrets of alchemy will be released before the end of time.'

[Jay Weidner, author of 'A Monument to the End of Time: Alchemy, Fulcanelli and the Great Cross']
Even there, the cross of Hendaye was completely badly understood. Fulcanelli did not speak about the end of time of the temporal point of view, but about the allegorical point of view. The end of time is the fixation of time, the use of forgery of Saturn which congeals the time. It is the application of the (allegorical) cold which creates a particular phenomenon: the appearance of Spiritus Mundi.


I once attempted to correspond with Jay's co-author VB who was a personal friend of a soror I know in California. Nice guy, but so very sure of his own correct understanding of what Fulcanelli and the old alchemists were saying.

The problem with Weidner and Bridges' theory is that they focus on a very small part of the alchemical tradition, mix it with Qabalah (with a Q or a K rather than a C), throw in some stuff about Egyptian sun-worship, etc etc, and then seem to be like "quod et demonstratum!" Both of Fulcanelli's books had chapters at the end regarding chiliasm/the end of the world. The Paradox of the Unlimited Progress of Science, and the accompanying notes which Canseliet inserted from his master, were much more interesting in some senses than the cross of Hendaye which has gained so much notoriety now.

They could have been a lot more circumspect reading the writings of an alchemist too - the words "It is written that life takes refuge within a single space" could just as easily refer to the enclosed hermetic vessel within which life always exists or is born, rather than imagining it to mean some cave in Peru. But of course that interpretation wouldn't have sold as many books off the back of 2012 craziness. Peru tourism is going to be pretty damned busy come 2012 :D.

Still, chiliasm does relate at least in part to the possibility of future catastrophe, even if not an "end of time", and in case the reader doesn't get it, Fulcanelli ends the main part of his book with a long meditation on the idea that the Earth itself cannot escape from the laws governing living bodies.



Now by the fact that they are destined to the final dissolution, all beings must necessarily derive a similar benefit from it. Our planet itself cannot escape this inexorable law. It has its preordained time just as we have ours. The duration of its evolution is ordered, regulated in advance and strictly limited. Reason demonstrates it, and common sense intuits it, analogy teaches it and the Scriptures certify it: In the noise of an awful storm, the sky and the earth will pass...

During a time, time, and half a time (12). Death will spread its domination over the ruins of the world, over the remnants of destroyed civilizations. And our earth, after the convulsions of along agony, will resume the confused state of the original chaos. But the Spirit of God will float on the waters. And all things will be covered with darkness and steeped in the profound silence of tombs.

Awani
06-03-2010, 03:14 AM
Homosexuality is only a small part of the stuff treated in the Letters. Take a look at the this beautiful part on the Solar Wound in the Breitner article for instance...

Which goes on about the gay man and his testicles.

No prophet will ever come!

And if he does I shall be the first to slay him. None is above another, only a fascist. And those that follow such a person is a fool. IMHO!

Green Lion: thanks for all those points.

:cool:

Andro
06-04-2010, 01:22 AM
The use of a sword to make it indicates the use of a Martian energy which allows to obtain it. The Martian energy is a fire bound to the iron.

I find the above mentioned clues highly relevant for an even deeper Alchemical understanding.

Especially in light of the concept of the Serpent's Venom being transformed into a medicine by means of the Serpent's Blood.

One is free to draw his own interpretation...

;)

Hellin Hermetist
06-04-2010, 01:27 AM
Hi Leningrad

The fact of believing that the beheading in the texts of alchemy will take place only in the end of the world because we do not understand its meaning is a not sense. The beheading well takes place in alchemy, this very day, if we know how to realize it. It is about a process of separation, simply. The use of a sword to make it indicates the use of a Martian energy which allows to obtain it. The Martian energy is a fire bound to the iron. It is for it that we often see swords surrounded with flames or with swords the blade of which is the shape of wave. It is the water fire, that we have to use (a salt) and the iron presence allows this clear separation in two parts of a material body.



I missed you at that point. Is this water fire, the common mercury/universal solvent? Is it a salt at all the cases or only when we follow the dry way, as you mentioned at another topic?

Hellin Hermetist
06-04-2010, 01:32 AM
The real moon, sun and earth are philosophical, but material too. Philosophical means modify by the Art of Alchemy. But the philosophical sun is just the seed of gold : a real thing that could be found in lead for example (see Vigenère’s Particular).



In which treatise can we find Vinegere's Particular?

Green Lion
06-04-2010, 04:43 AM
Hi Androgynus


One is free to draw his own interpretation...
Exactly.
As long as the interpretations give valid and useful results in practice, everyone can and should interpret in a personal way.

Hi Hellin Hermetist


I missed you at that point. Is this water fire, the common mercury/universal solvent? Is it a salt at all the cases or only when we follow the dry way, as you mentioned at another topic?
This water fire is the support of the universal solvant, following materials with which we work. It could be a salt in all the cases, but not naturally. The alchemist has to make some preparations on the water fire.


In which treatise can we find Vinegere's Particular?
In "Le Traité du Feu et du Sel" de Blaise de Vigenère. Only in French and in Latin I believe.

Salazius
06-05-2010, 09:55 AM
A discourse on Fire and Salt, in RAMS, by Vigenere can be found.

leningrad
06-09-2010, 08:51 AM
I've come back to copy a quote, and look what I found!! The sky seems to be the limit with you guys if it comes to nonsense. :)


Alchemy is not a human process but an external process.


The beheading well takes place in alchemy, this very day, if we know how to realize it. :D


No prophet will ever come!

And if he does I shall be the first to slay him. None is above another, only a fascist. And those that follow such a person is a fool. IMHO! :eek: [P.S. Note the H here in IMHO]


There is plenty of evidence that there are materials produced in laboratory alchemy that awaken kundalini.


I would say it's enough to grasp the philosophical meaning of 'Nothing' to also understand the equally elusive nature of 'Something', followed by consciously integrating the notion of the Infinite Mercurial In-Between - the Universal Spirit, Language and 'Platform' which by itself creates, maintains and permeates all possible realities. (You'd be a great president! ;))

And yes, Mr. Osborn was right IMO when he wrote:


"The gay connection to Kundalini, as brought to our attention by the Paris 4, has proven to be a very sensitive subject to some people." [Gary Osborn] :rolleyes:

Leningrad ;)

leningrad
06-09-2010, 09:27 AM
Hi Leningrad

The term of beheading can be simply only a personal and subjective description of what the gay man felt. No other text of yoga speaks about beheading in the phenomenon of rise of Kundalini.

Yoga? Never heard of The Alchemical Wedding (Rosencreutz) then. The beheading in that book of the Royal Persons.



It is a messianic concept, but in no way alchemic.

The nonsense packed in these few words alone. What shall we do with it? Ah, yes, Ripley:


'Here Ripley [ vide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ripley_(alchemist) ] describes the (alchemical) renewal of the King and the birth of the Son as the manifestation of a new Redeemer, which sounds very queer indeed in the mouth of a medieval ecclesiastic.'[Jung, MC, par. 443]

Then:


The authors indicate all that two types of persons can finalize the alchemic Work: those who have the gift of God and those whom an Adept guides.

Are you perhaps talking about a God independent of man? :confused:

Next:


Graal is a recent concept, it dates only first works on the Arthurian cycle. We cannot base themselves on Graal to explain the alchemy.

We cannot base etc etc. What are you talking about? And recent? Recent? Lion, you don't know the first thing about alchemy. A good thing Maria El Safti does:


In her 1953 book The Ancient Secret, Flavia Anderson points out that although the cities of Phoenicia had at one time successfully freed themselves from Egypt's imperialism, they had kept Egypt's Gods. And the very city, Toledo, where, as Wolfram von Eschenbach claims, the true story of Parzival and the Grail was found, was originally a Phoenician settlement, meaning, therefore, a settlement with its religious roots initially firmly planted in the theology of Ancient Egypt and its Pantheon. This all is a strong indication, ladies and gentlemen, that at least one line leads directly from the Benben Stone of Heliopolis to von Eschenbach's Grailstone.
And that makes sense, because 'the origin of Alchemy was not chemistry, but knowledge of certain mysteries.' [Julius Evola [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola ]]
Mysteries pointing to physical immortality, divinity and the Solar Hero. Because 'in man there is an invisible sun, identified with the Archeus' [Jung][ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archeus ].
And the Solar Hero is he who frees this sun and puts it to work in the Great Work of Alchemy to compose the Lightbody.(El Safti)


Jung was not an alchemist. It is better not to base itself on its texts to try to understand the alchemy because we get lost there rather than the other thing.

You get lost, my friend:


'Alchemy has performed for me the great and invaluable service of providing material in which my experience could find sufficient room, and has thereby made it possible for me to describe the individuation process at least in its essential aspects.' [Jung]

&

'Fundamental to alchemy is a true and genuine mystery which since the seventeenth century has been understood unequivocally as psychic. (...) But I do not imagine for a moment that the psychological interpretation of a mystery must necessarily be the last word. If it is a mystery it must have still other aspects. Certainly I believe that psychology can unravel the secrets of Alchemy, but it will not lay bare the secrets of these secrets.' [Jung]

Then:


The fact of believing that the beheading in the texts of alchemy will take place only in the end of the world because we do not understand its meaning is a not sense. The beheading well takes place in alchemy, this very day, if we know how to realize it. It is about a process of separation, simply.

Right, decapitatio is the same as separatio. (Where would we be without you? ) :(


The use of a sword to make it indicates the use of a Martian energy which allows to obtain it. The Martian energy is a fire bound to the iron. It is for it that we often see swords surrounded with flames or with swords the blade of which is the shape of wave. It is the water fire, that we have to use (a salt) and the iron presence allows this clear separation in two parts of a material body.

The sky...

http://fortuzero.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/img_8708_blue_sky.jpg

Then you say:


Graal is a symbolic object.

You´d love that, wouldn´t you. :)

leningrad
06-09-2010, 09:53 AM
It is this quotation which is funny. It is enough to read any work of alchemy to see that the Elixir Vitae is one under product of the Philosopher's stone. It is not absolutely internal, but very external.


'The tan-t'ien, the 'fields of cinnabar,' are to be found in the most secret recesses of the brain and belly; here it is that the embryo of immortality is alchemically prepared.' [Eliade, 1962:111]

24.

'The Calabash, of course, plays a considerable part in Taoist ideology and is regarded as representing the cosmos in minitiature. In this gourd-shaped microcosm resides the source of Life and Youth.' [Eliade, 1962:98]

Then you say...


The royal marriage well takes place in a glass balloon in wet way.

:D


Who are this “alchemists” ? I don’t know any great alchemy practitioner who said this Forbidden Letters are the conclusion to alchemy.

The term ´alchemy practitioner´ alone here...


The fire of Prométhée is not the vulgar fire. But it is not either Kundalini. The fire of Prométhée is a water fire, it is Spiritus Mundi under material shape.

http://fortuzero.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/img_8708_blue_sky.jpg


The Stone is not in the human body. We can find a material in the human body which can give the Stone. But for it, it is necessary to extract it and to cleanse it outside. But the alchemists having worked above are rare. The great majority of the alchemists indicate that to find the Stone, it is necessary to look in the reign of metals and in him only. We can read Jacques Tollius to realize it.

I suggest you start reading Jung for a change.


In his 1945 Festschrift for Gustav Senn, Carl Jung said that the Stone of Alchemy was 'a great embarrassment to the alchemist, for since it had never been produced, no one could say what it really was.' It was said it was 'born from a living thing' and 'extracted from man,' and 'its connection with immortality was attested from very early times,' but, again, 'no one could say what it really was.'

Not untill 1986 that is. ;)

Next you say...


The Universe would exist, even without the presence of the Man.

The Universe is only projection.


The alchemy indicates that the microcosm is the mirror of the macrocosm and not its projector.


What is ridiculous, it is to imagine that to visit the earth means returning in her literally.

It is ridiculous to you.


´We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts. The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.´

leningrad
06-09-2010, 10:03 AM
It is sure that if we give faith the gay man to describe, there is only he who is an alchemist.

And you´d hate that, wouldn´t you...


Because no text of alchemy describes the work as him.

Of course not. Because Alchemy is a Latter Day phenomenon. There were not secrets before 1986, only mysteries.


In spite of the Bible warning us not to give to the dog what is holy, Paris relentlessly published what they had discovered about Alchemy. This, I'm sure, they could do because they had understood that they were not dealing with a secret here, but with a mystery. A mystery that has apparently been with us for at least 200 generations. (Maud Perkins)


Because it contradicts all the alchemical texts.)

Your ´alchemists´ didn´t even agree with eachother. ;)

leningrad
06-09-2010, 10:24 AM
No, because decapitation is not done by a thread but with a water fire..

Actually they say ´thread´.


a) Our man is on the floor on his back. He had his eyes closed during the whole resurrection. A 'thread' (very thin) is closing around his neck. The head is decapitated by that 'thread'.



In Indian yoga, the first chakra has to be open before the others. It is capital.




'Asians can't even agree on the number of chakra's, which strongly suggests nobody there ever produced a lightbody.' [John Wilkins in in an email to us on the Forbidden Letters]

'According to Hindu tradition there are seven main chakra's (some say six/Kaposi), the Buddhist tantras speak of only four here.' [Mircea Eliade]


The gay man demonstrated nothing.

Are you afraid perhaps? ;) You´d not be the only one you know...


Leningrad, would you mind I asked you about 2012. Is it just an allegory, or will there really be a great consumption? I must admit, I am slightly frightened about it all, because a lot seems to be pointing towards such an event.

Regards,

Kindred Soul


You thus studied all the texts of Vedanta? Bravo …

Thank you. I mean, nice things are said too on this Forum.


Leningrad,

Thank you for your wonderful replies; you sound like you have much experiential wisdom.

How is your progress in the work; have you completed it by any chance?

Regards,

Kindred Soul

Mind you, Kindred Soul apparently appreciates my replies and at the same time thinks I´m an alchemist. (lol)

Green Lion
06-09-2010, 11:40 AM
Yoga? Never heard of The Alchemical Wedding (Rosencreutz) then. The beheading in that book of the Royal Persons.

Still it is necessary to know where came from the chemical wedding of rosencreutz. It is Andreae who wrote this text with the aim of advancing king of Bohemia (Maximilien II), protestant, and to allowing him to take the power against Habsburg. It is the work much less rose-cross that we believe it. And also, it is not really alchemical. To understand it, it is necessary to put it in parallel with the other text of Johann Valentin Andreae: Christianopolis.
As for the chemical wedding, the real, they are much better explained in the work of Jean d' Espagnet and concern in the first place the purification of the mean material to obtain the virgin ( first marriage), then secondly the marriage between the mercury principle ( the virgin) and the sulphur principle ( philosophic gold) to obtain the philosophical sulfur. They are very concrete manipulations in the laboratory. Nothing to do with Kundalini.


There are no crows beheaded.
Really ?

L’enfant hermaphrodite du soleil et de la lune : When this period is sold, the Crow is in front of the door and we have to cut its Head, its blackness, after it lasted forty days.

The Clavicule of Raimond Lulle : Son of the science, you will have then the Head of crow for which the Philosophers so much looked, without which the Magistery cannot exist.
The Cosmopolite : That if you do not keep this regime and that your material is too much warmed, you will not see wished head of the crow.

Le filet d’Ariane : The Philosophers gave it diverse names, and called it west, darkness, eclipse, leprosy, head of crow, died, and the humiliation of the mercury.

Philosophi Reformata : Decomposition, Death, Caput corvi (Head of Crow), Nigredo, ars the names of the operation in the course of which the Pure Spirits are separated from scorias.

Fulcanelli : This water, which has for symbol the crow, can be washed and cleared only by means of the fire. And it is what there what the philosophers give us to listen when, in their enigmatic style, they recommend to the artist to cut him the head. By these igneous ablutions, the water leaves its black tint and takes a white color. The crow, beheaded, gives up the ghost and loses its feathers.


The nonsense packed in these few words alone. What shall we do with it? Ah, yes, Ripley:
Quote:
'Here Ripley [ vide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ripley_(alchemist) ] describes the (alchemical) renewal of the King and the birth of the Son as the manifestation of a new Redeemer, which sounds very queer indeed in the mouth of a medieval ecclesiastic.'[Jung, MC, par. 443]

Of what passage and about which book of Ripley speaks here Jung? I have no knowledge of a text of Ripley speaking about "Redeemer".


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLion
The authors indicate all that two types of persons can finalize the alchemic Work: those who have the gift of God and those whom an Adept guides.
God?

Yes, God. Just for example, the title of this alchemical text : Donum Dei.


We cannot base etc etc. What are you talking about? And recent? Recent. Lion, you don't know the first thing about alchemy. A good thing Maria El Safti does:
Quote:
In her 1953 book The Ancient Secret, Flavia Anderson points out that although the cities of Phoenicia had at one time successfully freed themselves from Egypt's imperialism, they had kept Egypt's Gods. And the very city, Toledo, where, as Wolfram von Eschenbach claims, the true story of Parzival and the Grail was found, was originally a Phoenician settlement, meaning, therefore, a settlement with its religious roots initially firmly planted in the theology of Ancient Egypt and its Pantheon. This all is a strong indication, ladies and gentlemen, that at least one line leads directly from the Benben Stone of Heliopolis to von Eschenbach's Grailstone.
And that makes sense, because 'the origin of Alchemy was not chemistry, but knowledge of certain mysteries.' [Julius Evola [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola ]]
Mysteries pointing to physical immortality, divinity and the Solar Hero. Because 'in man there is an invisible sun, identified with the Archeus' [Jung][ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archeus ].
And the Solar Hero is he who frees this sun and puts it to work in the Great Work of Alchemy to compose the Lightbody.(El Safti)

What are the proofs that Graal came well form Phoenicia? Nothing. It is simply a personal interpolation, quite as Dan Brown indicates that Graal is the descent of the Christ. All this, it are beautiful ideas, but absolutely not proved. I prefer to base myself on the university studies realized on the Arthurian cycle.


You get lost, my friend:
Quote:
'Alchemy has performed for me the great and invaluable service of providing material in which my experience could find sufficient room, and has thereby made it possible for me to describe the individuation process at least in its essential aspects.' [Jung, MC ars 792]
&
'Fundamental to alchemy is a true and genuine mystery which since the seventeenth century has been understood unequivocally as psychic. (...) But I do not imagine for a moment that the psychological interpretation of a mystery must necessarily be the last word. If it is a mystery it must have still other aspects. Certainly I believe that psychology can unravel the secrets of Alchemy, but it will not lay bare the secrets of these secrets.' [Jung, MC pars 213]

The interpretation which Jung made of the alchemy, is completely subjective. He does not take into account physical transmutations of lead into gold which were realized. He does not take into account the properties of the Elixir Vitae. He does not take into account the total implications which give the alchemical laws. He is clearly not an alchemist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLion
Graal is a symbolic object.
You´d love that, wouldn´t you.

I don’t care anymore, in fact…

Green Lion
06-09-2010, 11:43 AM
'The tan-t'ien, the 'fields of cinnabar,' are to be found in the most secret recesses of the brain and belly; here it is that the embryo of immortality is alchemically prepared.' [Eliade, 1962:111]
24.
'The Calabash, of course, plays a considerable part in Taoist ideology and is regarded as representing the cosmos in minitiature. In this gourd-shaped microcosm resides the source of Life and Youth.' [Eliade, 1962:98]

Mircea Eliade was a historian of the religions. He was not interested in the concrete aspect of the alchemy. The fact of quoting an extract of a nei-tan Taoïst text to prove the no existence of the practical alchemy is a beautiful error. And Wei-tan?


Originally Posted by Green Lion
Who are this “alchemists” ? I don’t know any great alchemy practitioner who said this Forbidden Letters are the conclusion to alchemy.
The term ´alchemy practitioner´ alone here...

And thus, no answer? You lost your tongue?


I suggest you start reading Jung for a change.

Why not? But just for the psychology. He brought nothing to me in alchemy.


Not untill 1986 that is.

That is not. You have to read the text of Bernard Husson : Transmutations alchimiques.


The Universe is only projection.

If you want…


Originally Posted by GreenLion
What is ridiculous, it is to imagine that to visit the earth means returning in her literally.
It is ridiculous to you.
Quote:
´We are closing for today. If you search in alchemy, at one point you will find the expression V.I.T.R.I.O.L. (= visit the centre of the earth and by rectification you will find the stone). The alchemist- writers are quite mistaking here. We recommend our 16 words from our first mail: first the stone is produced, then the journey to the inner earth starts. The stone is found in the body, not in the earth. Mind you, everything is, in the end, found in the body. If an alchemist travels through the earth, he's doing that in the microcosmos of the body. Remember what we said: the real sun and moon (and earth) are in you. Not outside. And this explains why our friend could still hear common street noise outside his apartment when he traveled to the centre of the earth over 19 years ago with tremendous speed.´

Re-quote the extract which I contradicted bring nothing … It would be more interesting to find other sources to support your comments.


Originally Posted by Green Lion
It is sure that if we give faith the gay man to describe, there is only he who is an alchemist.
And you´d hate that, wouldn´t you...

I don’t care anymore. I am not against the "gay man" if he says that he discovered a new spiritual way. But what he says that it is the only real interpretation of the alchemy is ridiculous. That he has at least the honesty to recognize it.


Of course not. Because Alchemy is a Latter Day phenomenon. There were not secrets before 1986, only mysteries.

It makes no difference. Use this argument to explain that the alchemy is not any more described in the same way is absurd.

Your ´alchemists´ don´t even agree with eachother.

Yes, they agree. But to realize it, it is really necessary to study them and to practice.


Actually they say ´thread´.
Quote:
a) Our man is on the floor on his back. He had his eyes closed during the whole resurrection. A 'thread' (very thin) is closing around his neck. The head is decapitated by that 'thread'.

Another quotation than that of Paris 4? That of an alchemist, for example, would be welcome.


'Asians can't even agree on the number of chakra's, which strongly suggests nobody there ever produced a lightbody.' [John Wilkins in in an email to us on the Forbidden Letters]

'According to Hindu tradition there are seven main chakra's (some say six/Kaposi), the Buddhist tantras speak of only four here.' [Mircea Eliade]

The number of chakras changes nothing the fact that it is the first one which must be opened first of all. Chakras is the intersections between nadis. They are thus thousands. Every Asian tradition then considered some of these chakras as more important than the others.
The John Wilkins's first quotation shows that he knows nothing because there were bodies rainbow which were realized in the XXth century.


Are you afraid perhaps? You´d not be the only one you know...

Afraid by what?


Originally Posted by GreenLion
You thus studied all the texts of Vedanta? Bravo …
Thank you.

Then where are the errors in Vedanta? Quotations in the support naturally. In Sanskrit if it is easier, it does not disturb me.

leningrad
06-09-2010, 12:01 PM
Still it is necessary to know where came from the chemical wedding of rosencreutz. (...)Nothing to do with Kundalini.

Again, you don´t understand the first thing about alchemy.




L’enfant hermaphrodite du soleil et de la lune : When this period is sold, the Crow is in front of the door and we have to cut its Head, its blackness, after it lasted forty days.

The Clavicule of Raimond Lulle : Son of the science, you will have then the Head of crow for which the Philosophers so much looked, without which the Magistery cannot exist.
The Cosmopolite : That if you do not keep this regime and that your material is too much warmed, you will not see wished head of the crow.

Le filet d’Ariane : The Philosophers gave it diverse names, and called it west, darkness, eclipse, leprosy, head of crow, died, and the humiliation of the mercury.

Philosophi Reformata : Decomposition, Death, Caput corvi (Head of Crow), Nigredo, ars the names of the operation in the course of which the Pure Spirits are separated from scorias.

Fulcanelli : This water, which has for symbol the crow, can be washed and cleared only by means of the fire. And it is what there what the philosophers give us to listen when, in their enigmatic style, they recommend to the artist to cut him the head. By these igneous ablutions, the water leaves its black tint and takes a white color. The crow, beheaded, gives up the ghost and loses its feathers.

Again, you are taking the metaphores for the real thing.



Of what passage and about which book of Ripley speaks here Jung? I have no knowledge of a text of Ripley speaking about "Redeemer"

That´s not the only knowledge you don´t have.



Yes, God. Just for example, the title of this alchemical text : Donum Dei.

If you think a God independent of the human soul exists, then there is no talking to you when it comes to alchemy. Just because so called alchemists in the past believed in such a God doesn´t mean that such a God exists. ´God´ is an immmortal man (Corpus Hermeticum). Alchemy is about immortalization and deification.


What are the proofs that Graal came well form Phoenicia? Nothing. It is simply a personal interpolation, quite as Dan Brown indicates that Graal is the descent of the Christ. All this, it are beautiful ideas, but absolutely not proved. I prefer to base myself on the university studies realized on the Arthurian cycle.…

On the Arthurian cycle... (lol)

You child. Why don´t you go and rent Harry Potter movies.



I don’t care anymore, in fact…

Excellent.

Green Lion
06-09-2010, 12:16 PM
Again, you don´t understand the first thing about alchemy.

No more arguments than it?


Again, you are taking the metaphores for the real thing.

No more arguments than it?


That´s not the only knowledge you don´t have.

You do not seem to know either about which quotation of Ripley it is …


If you think a God independent of the human soul exists, then there is no talking to you when it comes to alchemy. Just because so called alchemists in the past believed in such a God doesn´t mean that such a God exists. ´God´ is an immmortal man (Corpus Hermeticum). Alchemy is about immortalization and deification.

Believe that a "gay man" is the only alchemist does not mean that you are right …


On the Arthurian cycle... (lol)

You child. Why don´t you go and rent Harry Potter movies.

No more arguments than it? Did you read at least the Arthurian cycle? The one who contains all the works which were written on Graal, the first one were the one of Chrétien de Troyes?

I have the impression that there is nothing more to add. You have no more argument. You quote authors who are not even alchemists. You do not answer the questions that I put you. You have no culture of alchemical texts, although you say that you studied them during 20 years …
I thus finish here the discussion. I enough demonstrated to the members of this forum that what you tell does not hold the road.
Good courage for the continuation.

leningrad
06-09-2010, 12:21 PM
I enough demonstrated to the members of this forum that what you tell does not hold the road.

You did nothing of the kind.


No more arguments than it? Did you read at least the Arthurian cycle? The one who contains all the works which were written on Graal, the first one were the one of Chrétien de Troyes.

The Arthurian cycle. Yes, I read it. (lol). Here are some quotes on one of its experts, Mr. Barber.


'There have been numerous attempts to relate the Grail to Alchemy.'[Richard Barber:2004]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Barber ]

5.

'Barber's book masterly restores all the Grail's gravitas, giving it an exciting new lease of life.'[Independent]

6.

'Why should the Grail be a stone?'[Barber2004]

7.

'Barber is an Arthurian expert whose purpose is to hack a path through the muddled, corrupted and conflicting versions of the Grail Story.'[Daily Telegraph]

8.

'With Wolfram von Eschenbach nothing is straightforward. He used his arcane knowledge to add to the mystery of the Grail, not to define the object itself.'[Barber, 2004passim/italics mine]

9.

'By the power of that Stone the Phoenix (i.e. the human body in Kundalini fire/Winter) burns to ashes, but the ashes quickly restore him to life again.'[Wolfram von Eschenbach] *)

10.

'The Phoenix is only present (in Eschenbach's version of the Grail Legend) to emphasize the power and unique nature of the Grail; it is the rarest and most splendid of birds, just as the Grail is the rarest and most splendid of precious stones. Beyond that, it is difficult to construct any kind of symbolic argument (here), since the Phoenix is interpreted in the bestiary as a token of the resurrection of the dead, which has no obvious relation to the Grail's function.'[Barber, 2004passim]

11.

'Barber's book is a fascinating compendium of theology.'[Sunday Times]

12.

'All the information used (in my book) is genuine and verifiable. There is no one 'truth' about the Grail. All we can do is suggest how (its legend) may have arisen, and what it may mean, because the force that shaped it was imagination. The creative thought that subtly built on an unfinished story (the one by Chretien de Troyes/Winter), and invented the Grail.'[Richard Barber, 2004passim]

13.

'The stone is produced about where the liver is. It ignites the Kundalini fire. It is pointy and about the size of a child's fist.'[The Paris 4: passim]

14.

'The Grail is beyond human language.'[Richard Barber, 2004]

15.

'I believed that the first shape of the Grail would be dimly discernible in the remote past. Instead, I found myself offering a very different picture, indebted to medieval theology (only).'[Barber, 2004:369]

16.

'In her 1953 book The Ancient Secret, Flavia Anderson points out that although the cities of Phoenicia had at one time successfully freed themselves from Egypt's imperialism, they had kept Egypt's Gods. And the very city, Toledo, where, as Wolfram von Eschenbach claims, the true story of Parzival and the Grail was found, was originally a Phoenician settlement, meaning, therefore, a settlement with its religious roots initially firmly planted in the theology of Ancient Egypt and its Pantheon. This all is a strong indication, ladies and gentlemen, that at least one line leads directly from the Benben Stone of Heliopolis to von Eschenbach's Grailstone.'[Maria El Safti on the Forbidden Letters]





Mircea Eliade was a historian of the religions. He was not interested in the concrete aspect of the alchemy.The fact of quoting an extract of a nei-tan Taoïst text to prove the no existence of the practical alchemy is a beautiful error. And Wei-tan?

You clearly never read Eliade: 'It must be emphasized that Alchemy was not, in its origins, an empirical science, a rudimentary chemistry.' [Mircea Eliade, 1962:9]

And what you call practical alchemy is no alchemy at all. There is only one alchemical proces, and it is in the human body. Whether we can actually change lead into gold doesn´t change that. We can bake breads, yet the agricultural allegories in the bible on alchemy are not about real bread:


Surely these were people who called themselves alchemists, but were in fact only taking the allegory for the thing itself. For instance, take Thomas 96, where the process of Fermentatio within the alchemical process is discussed in agricultural, instead of chemical allegorical language.

Jesus [said], The Father's kingdom is like [a] woman. She took a little leaven, [hid] it in dough, and made it into large loaves of bread. Anyone here with two ears had better listen!

Now, would you agree with a baker who bakes bread and calls that alchemy, that he actually thereby is an alchemist?" [On the Forbidden Letters]



And thus, no answer? You lost your tongue? !

I suggest you start quoting me correctly. And by the way, I answered your question.



Who are this “alchemists” ? I don’t know any great alchemy practitioner who said this Forbidden Letters are the conclusion to alchemy.
The term ´alchemy practitioner´ alone here...

This quote has words by both you and me (the last sentence is by me).

Hence I answered your question with the remark...´The term ´alchemy practitioner´ alone here...



Why not? But just for the psychology. He brought nothing to me in alchemy.

Because you lack discernment and intelligence.

And because of that I am going to ignore your posts from now on. Just continue believing that there are more paths than the one described in the Forbidden Letters. Good luck. ;)

Andro
06-09-2010, 07:30 PM
I would say it's enough to grasp the philosophical meaning of 'Nothing' to also understand the equally elusive nature of 'Something', followed by consciously integrating the notion of the Infinite Mercurial In-Between - the Universal Spirit, Language and 'Platform' which by itself creates, maintains and permeates all possible realities.


(You'd be a great president! ;))

Why, would you vote for me? :cool:
________________________________________________

Do you detect any political overtones in my personal synthesis and understanding of the basics principles of Alchemy?

;)


And yes, Mr. Osborn was right IMO when he wrote:


"The gay connection to Kundalini, as brought to our attention by the Paris 4, has proven to be a very sensitive subject to some people." [Gary Osborn]

Regardless of existing or non-existing connections to Alchemy or Kundalini, introducing such a 'sensitive' subject tends to act like an almost magical screen/filter to keep homophobes away from information, again, regardless of whether the info is valid or not.

I think if I were to put out high grade info one day, I would most likely be using similar filters to keep away the vulgar assholes who are not able to comprehend DIVERSITY along with the many special individual talents that it brings into our reality.

Quoth 'Chemical Moonshine':


"The Ways Of Attraction Are Many"

vega33
06-10-2010, 01:02 AM
The nonsense packed in these few words alone. What shall we do with it? Ah, yes, Ripley:

'Here Ripley [ vide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ripley_(alchemist) ] describes the (alchemical) renewal of the King and the birth of the Son as the manifestation of a new Redeemer, which sounds very queer indeed in the mouth of a medieval ecclesiastic.'[Jung, MC, par. 443]



Of what passage and about which book of Ripley speaks here Jung? I have no knowledge of a text of Ripley speaking about "Redeemer".

People do love to quote and misquote Jung. As it turns out, the dump above that leningrad provided was actually a quote from the Forbidden Letters (another Paris 4 quote in other words). The *ACTUAL* Jung quote below in context:



442 Verse 29
Hence God unlock'd the Gates of Paradise,
Rais'd him like Luna to th'Imperiall Place, Sublim'd him to the Heavens, and that being done, Crown'd him in Glory, aequall with the Sun.242
443 Here Ripley describes the renewal of the king and the birth
of the son as the manifestation of a new redeemer-which sounds very queer indeed in the mouth of a medieval ecclesiastic. The sublimation of Luna ("uti Luna") to the "imperial place" is an unmistakable paraphrase on the one hand of the Assumption of the Virgin and on the other of the marriage of the bride, the Church. The unlocking of paradise means nothing less than the advent of God's Kingdom on earth. The attributes of sun and moon make the filius regius into the rearisen Primordial Man, who is the cosmos. It would be wrong to minimize the impor¬tance of this jubilee or to declare it is nonsense. One cannot dis¬miss all the alchemists as insane. It seems to me more advisable to examine the motives that led a cleric, of all people, to postulate a divine revelation outside his credo. If the lapis were noth¬ing but gold the alchemists would have been wealthy folk; if it were the panacea they would have had a remedy for all sickness; if it were the elixir they could have lived a thousand years or more. But all this would not oblige them to make religious state¬ments about it. If nevertheless it is praised as the second coming of the Messiah one must assume that the alchemists really did mean something of the kind. Although they regarded the art as a charisma, a gift of the Holy Ghost or of the Sapientia Dei,243 it was still man's work, and, even though a divine miracle was the decisive factor, the mysterious filius was still concocted arti¬ficially in a retort.


This is apparently from Ripley's Cantilena, or Song , which unfortunately seems to be missing from Adam's site (the link goes to a 404 page).

Incidentally the quote, when taken in its full context, contradicts several of the statements made by the Paris 4, and of course it seems Jung is as usual confused about why the alchemists spoke with such a religious tone, when in fact the answer was literally right before his eyes. :D

leningrad
06-10-2010, 10:34 AM
People do love to quote and misquote Jung. As it turns out, the dump above that leningrad provided was actually a quote from the Forbidden Letters (another Paris 4 quote in other words).

And where would that passage be in the Forbidden Letters? :D


The *ACTUAL* Jung quote below in context:

Jung: 'Here Ripley describes the renewal of the king and the birth
of the son as the manifestation of a new redeemer-which sounds very queer indeed in the mouth of a medieval ecclesiastic.'

The point is that a medieval ecclesiastic acknowledges that a process (i.e. the alchemical renewal of King and Queen) beyond Christ's sacrifice is needed to redeem. And that is indeed queer (for a medieval ecclesiastic). ;)

Jung then says: 'If nevertheless it is praised as the second coming of the Messiah one must assume that the alchemists really did mean something of the kind.'(bolds added)

If.

Jung was very nervous about the Stone being Christ and the Christ of the Bible hence not being an historcial person for instance.


In his 1945 Festschrift for Gustav Senn, Carl Jung said that the Stone of Alchemy was 'a great embarrassment to the alchemist, for since it had never been produced, no one could say what it really was.' It was said it was 'born from a living thing' and 'extracted from man,' and 'its connection with immortality was attested from very early times,' but, again, 'no one could say what it really was.'

For Jung the most probable hypothesis was, that that stone represented 'a psychic experience.' This suggests that he indeed missed 'the deeper level of alchemy and thereby of resurrection.'
[de Renzi, Fenelon, de la Censerie]

Jung guessed that the succesful alchemist, 'this most pure or most true man, must be no other than what he is, just as argentum putum is unalloyed silver. He must be (...) a man who knows and possesses everything human' and must not be 'adulterated by any influence or admixture from without. This man will appear on earth only in the last days.'

If one thinks Jung has identified the alchemist as the Christ here, one is severely mistaking. The alchemist, Jung continues, 'cannot be Christ, for Christ, by his blood, has already redeemed the world from the consequences of the Fall.(...) Christ is the purissimus homo, not the putissimus.' Christ 'is also God. Not pure silver, but gold aswell. And therefore not putus [meaning only silver, like the alchemist/Hume].' [italics added]

'On no account,' Jung continues, 'is it a question here of a future Christ and saviour of the microcosm, but rather of the alchemical preserver of the macrocosm, representing the still unconscious idea of the whole and complete man who shall bring about what the sacrificial death of Christ has obviously left unfinished, namely the deliverance of the world of evil." [italics added]

Jung had degraded the alchemist now, but not yet the stone. He would soon take care of that too.

'The alchemists did not hesitate to endow their stone with positively divine attributes and to put that stone, as a microcosm and a man, on a par with Christ.' [Jung]

Jung said that the stone can only be understood 'as a symbol of the inner Christ.' [italics added] Because 'although the stone is a parallel of Christ, it is not meant to replace him.' [Jung]

He even warns us 'not to try to force this numinous being [meaning Christ/Hume], at the risk of our own psychic destruction, into our own narrow human mould, for it is greater than man's consciousness and greater than his will.' In other words: let nobody think he is potentially Christ.[Hume on the Forbidden Letters]

vega33
06-10-2010, 09:08 PM
And where would that passage be in the Forbidden Letters? :D

http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_48.htm

"On the Forbidden Letters - by Pedro Caz"

Composed largely of a series of random quotes by the Paris 4 and Jung and a couple of others who spoke about immortality/alchemy, including the one you posted, curiously worded in exactly the same phraseology and cutting off at exactly the same point. Wow, some kind of coincidence huh?

vega33
06-10-2010, 09:20 PM
Incidentally, the above website cuts off other quotes at just the right place to conveniently support their theory too, such as the Laura Knight-Jadczyk quote about real alchemists (which is cut off before said alchemists slammed the Paris 4 material).

Awani
06-10-2010, 09:35 PM
Touché!

:p

leningrad
06-11-2010, 08:29 AM
First vega33 writes:


People do love to quote and misquote Jung. As it turns out, the dump above that leningrad provided was actually a quote from the Forbidden Letters (another Paris 4 quote in other words).

Then I come in asking:


And where would that passage be in the Forbidden Letters?

(Because I know it is not from the Forbidden Letters, not a Paris 4 quote.)

And then vega33 comes in and simply ignores his own claim (Paris 4-Forbidden Letters-quote) and says:


http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters_48.htm

"On the Forbidden Letters - by Pedro Caz"

Right, a Jung-quote given by Pedro Caz; nothing to do with the Paris 4, and not even taken from the Forbidden Letters. But does vega33 admit that? Rather he tries to cover things up with this macho-post:


Composed largely of a series of random quotes by the Paris 4 and Jung and a couple of others who spoke about immortality/alchemy, including the one you posted, curiously worded in exactly the same phraseology and cutting off at exactly the same point. Wow, some kind of coincidence huh?

Composed largely of... and a couple of others... huh?

Yes, the Pedro Caz article is composed largely of, and has a couple of others... But your remark was about the first quote in #22. A quote about which you said:


As it turns out, the dump above that leningrad provided was actually a quote from the Forbidden Letters (another Paris 4 quote in other words). The *ACTUAL* Jung quote below in context:

And here is that quote again:


'Here Ripley [ vide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ripley_(alchemist) ] describes the (alchemical) renewal of the King and the birth of the Son as the manifestation of a new Redeemer, which sounds very queer indeed in the mouth of a medieval ecclesiastic.'[Jung, MC, par. 443]

Not enough, then Deviadah comes in and makes a fool of himself by actually applauding all this nonsense:


Touché!

:(

leningrad
06-11-2010, 08:30 AM
Incidentally, the above website cuts off other quotes at just the right place to conveniently support their theory too, such as the Laura Knight-Jadczyk quote about real alchemists (which is cut off before said alchemists slammed the Paris 4 material).

They slammed all right (= to utter verbal abuse or harsh criticism/Merriam Webster), but did have a point?

Awani
06-11-2010, 10:23 PM
...and makes a fool of himself by actually applauding all this nonsense...

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." - Lincoln

;)

leningrad
06-12-2010, 08:48 AM
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." - Lincoln

;)

Deviadah, if you don't have anything to say, then don't write posts.

solomon levi
06-13-2010, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Green Lion:
I enough demonstrated to the members of this forum that what you tell does not hold the road.

Posted by Leningrad:
You did nothing of the kind.


Why not let the members speak for themselves?
Shall we have a poll?

I saw Green Lion possessing greater, broader knowledge and objectivity.
Leningrad stopped arguing reasonably and started name-calling and dismissing people.

I say GL did indeed demonstrate "that what you tell does not hold the road".


solomon

LeoRetilus
06-13-2010, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Green Lion:
I enough demonstrated to the members of this forum that what you tell does not hold the road.



GL has demonstated to me that he is perhaps the most accomplished and knowledgable practicing alchemist I personally know of right now.


Lenningrad, quoting Jung, obscure off forum posts by weirdos on less than serious alchemy sites, newage/self -help authors trying to sell books and the...... what was it , the Sun Times? Won't get you very far around here with people who think for themselves, if you are looking for a flock to just accept what you've written or quoted just because its written down somewhere which incidentaly doesn't make it true, you've come to the wrong place. (This commment does not require your usual retalitory response.)

leningrad
06-13-2010, 04:07 PM
Why not let the members speak for themselves?
Shall we have a poll?

I saw Green Lion possessing greater, broader knowledge and objectivity.


What you saw was somebody holding firmly to his believe that the allegories of alchemy are not allegories.

In the words of LeoRetilus:


' GL has demonstated to me that he is perhaps the most accomplished and knowledgable practicing alchemist I personally know of right now.'(underscore added)

Only a person turning his flesh into spirit and his spirit into flesh is an alchemist:


8.


'Through the Great Work of Alchemy certain polarities in the subtle stratum of our body are unified. First that unification takes place in the thalamus, then in the rest of the body too. And once that process is completed from head to toe, such a person is alchemically no more divided (meaning 'neither male nor female'/Dewasme).' [Morley]

9.


'At length the body is compelled to resign itself to, and obey, the union of the two. That is the wondrous transformation of the Philosophers, of body into spirit, and the latter into body, of which there has been left to us by the sages the saying: Make the fixed volatile and the volatile fixed, and in this you have our Magistery.' [Dorn/quoted by Jung]

10.

'It is significant for the whole of alchemy that in Dorn's view a mental union was not the culminating point, but merely the first stage of the procedure [ see section 1 of
http://www.world-mysteries.com/PhilipGardiner/forbidden_letters2.htm ]. The second stage is reached when the mental union, that is, the unity of spirit and soul, is conjoined with the body.' [Jung]


Goodbye, I'm leaving this forum for good now. :)

Leningrad

solomon levi
06-13-2010, 06:58 PM
Here is a list of quotes on the Forbidden Letters to Philip Gardiner that explain the deeper level of the Bible. The secrets about the Kingdom of God are about alchemy. I would love to have your opinion on those quotes.



This was your first lie. You didn't love having our opinions when they didn't agree with you.

Secondly, I'm glad you're leaving. I'm tired of watching you tell people what they really think or see. We don't need you as an interpreter for reality.

And GL knows they are allegories. As I said in my first post to you, the allegory can be interpreted many ways, not just one. You seem to be the one stuck on just one interpretation. Have you not read his posts? Do you think he is telling people to use an actual sword to collect universal undifferentiated matter?
To think that you were speaking with a real alchemists and you didn't have the mind to ask the right questions because your cup is full. What a shame.

solomon

solomon levi
06-13-2010, 08:07 PM
BTW, Leningrad,
your views, opinions and contributions are welcome here if you should
decide to return. But telling people what to think and acting as if you are
some holy mediator with the only worthwhile opinion is not.

Intelligent arguing, as you were initially doing, is great.
But then you stopped being intelligent and started treating people like idiots
when your arguments did not persuade.

Maybe you'll re-read this thread. I feel my view is fairly objective.

There are plenty of people here who would love to talk about kundalini as alchemy.
I've posted such ideas and experiences myself. There's a section for it under spiritual alchemy.
Why not engage some people there who share like views?

moderator,
solomon levi


ps. sorry for so many edits. I'm just moderating myself. ;)