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Ghislain
05-28-2010, 05:03 AM
What is good and evil? Does it even exist?
The same can be said of right and wrong.

Is there any good, evil, right or wrong other than that perceived in the mind of the beholder?

At the risk of being completely misunderstood I would like to mention that in a recent thread people
were talking about the holocaust. IMO an atrocity, but in the minds of the instigators it was just a
means to an end. Did they think at the time that they were good, evil, right or wrong?

There are some very educated people on this forum that could perhaps take a look in a mirror and
ask themselves, “How much do I actually know?”

I get a wave of comfort when I say, “I don’t Know”, because it is a time when I know for sure that I
speak the truth rather than opinion. Hopefully someday that statement will be a lie.

I have made a little motto up here, “forgive us lord for we know not what we do”, who said
plagiarism ;)

Ghislain

Awani
05-28-2010, 05:40 AM
It is all about perspective... we can't use the holocaust as an example really because like it or not I am sure there were murderers and rapists amongst the victims. I mean we can split hairs on that if you like.

I have a pretty simple world view that makes it easy to see the good and the evil.

If there is respect, there is good/right.
If there is no respect, evil/wrong.

The holocaust lacked respect so yes it was wrong... looking at the world I see 5000 years of disrespect amongst human beings, so to me the world is an evil place (in general terms).

:cool:

Albion
05-28-2010, 01:50 PM
If, as individuals, (or some portion/extension/expression of our higher selves, if you will) we are here to explore, gain experience, learn, develop, overcome, and expand creation - then there has to be a field of possibilities to choose from. We need to be able to learn from our mistakes so as to refine our imaginations.

I got upset with my landlady (again) the other day. That was ‘evil’ but, insofar as I learned how pointless and dumb my reaction and premises were, it was all part of the underlying perfection of the system. It may not seem fair to suggest that she had to pay some sort of price just so that I could learn something, but she was also (at least potentially) able to learn from the experience. Although both my momentary anger and her reaction were ‘real’ our premises were relatively imaginary. My subsequent feeling of embarrassment and wrongdoing was not so much due to having caused her suffering (although such considerations, when valid, certainly help add gravitas to the lesson) but rather were due more to the realization of the degree to which I had egoically ascribed reality (and invested energy) in delusional premises.

In order to learn to choose what is more real we need this field of imagination to play/develop in.

As for the Nazis [which always enter into discussions of this sort as an extreme case]: Their egos chose to drink Goebbels heavy draught of delusion to test out the validity of the master-race premise. The Jewish religion had also developed an eerily similar, albeit more benign concept. By the time it was over, the severely imaginary premise of a master race, (of the ubermensch) was, for both parties and, by extension, for all humanity, dealt a severe blow.

And if anyone reacts to this by imagining I am in any way anti-Semitic, I assure you this is not the case. [The tragedy of political correctness is that it often undercuts the activity of free inquiry by having a policy of attributing/imagining wrong motives/premises to the ‘offending party’ in all cases - and then reacts automatically from a presumed moral high-ground]. Everything the Nazis did to the Jews was vile, horrid, evil.

But it feels right for me, in the daily particulars, to posit/believe/tune into/perceive the underlying Perfection of existence at the same time I perceive, or think in terms of, the dichotomy of good & evil. Neither of which need cancel out the other.

Somehow [and it’s a mystery] we live in a perfect (open-ended) system that, in order to allow for both individual and group learning, must include possibilities of both good and evil.

We necessarily make many choices every day. We always choose what we think is good [The Nazis also always chose what, in their estimation at the time, was good]. And, as we are refined, via feedback from both outer reality and higher-self/spirit/intuition we learn that what we thought was good was, to some degree, delusional or simply somewhat inaccurate. And so the range of our future choices is gradually refined as we learn from our experiments in life as in the lab.

Everyone always believes they are doing good. No one chooses to do evil. But we can all, each from our own point of view, observe, in retrospect, what ourselves and others have manifested and then intuit a better sense of what a good, loving, more real or experimentally productive ‘choice’ would be - if, strictly speaking, we are even making choices at that point. We all just act from the highest light we have at the time. Perhaps the real choice is that of deciding to go deeper so as not to be operating automatically from default physical and social programming. And so perhaps the more one is still subject to such programming the less power of choice they have. Moving toward greater inner freedom is much of what the game is about, it would seem.

I think it’s a chimera to ‘fight evil’ since it doesn’t exist as an absolute but only, in each instance, as a relative judgment for purposes of learning.

In summary:

- Good & evil are valid [I]working concepts - as long as the ambit of their applicability is understood.

- There is a Perfection sponsoring and/or underlying it all.

- In a field of play in which individual decision has an important role, one must be confronted with/able to discern higher and lower possibilities. We need this even to move toward discovering the perfection at our core.

- No one ever chooses to do 'evil' although it is certainly proper, and important, for both them and others to discern the fruit (relative Quality) of any particular choice in order to learn from it.

_________________________________________

Anyway, such are my views at the moment of writing/editing. Don't mean to come across as dogmatic - it's just a writing style. As such, I certainly welcome any criticism that would help me refine/overhaul my understanding. I appreciate that the subject was introduced.

Deviadah said:

"I have a pretty simple world view that makes it easy to see the good and the evil.

If there is respect, there is good/right.
If there is no respect, evil/wrong."

I like that. And, of course, disagreement and respect can go hand in hand. As William Blake said: "In Opposition is True Friendship."
Or, to put it another way, "Steel sharpens steel."

One of the reasons we have forums... :-)

Andro
05-28-2010, 03:01 PM
Quoth Robert Monroe (http://dishlecioushilarious.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!DA33ACF297BDC1DB!522.entry):


"There is no good, there is no evil,
There is only expression."

Albion
05-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Quoth Shakespeare:

"There is nothing either good or bad
but thinking makes it so."

[Hamlet - Act II, Scene II]

Ghislain
05-28-2010, 04:33 PM
Daviada I’ll go with that view too.

If there is respect, there is good/right.
If there is no respect, evil/wrong.
Although whether you “are”/”are not” getting/giving enough respect or even if
respect is due at all, is again a matter of an individual’s opinion. If you do not
get respect do you withhold its return to the debtor?


If, as individuals, (or some portion/extension/expression of our higher
selves, if you will) we are here to explore, gain experience, learn, develop,
overcome, and expand creation

I’m with you 83.4% Albion, I just have that niggling 16.6% ‘expansion of
creation’ flicking back and forth. I think that may be a by-product of being.

IMO each of us are here on individual paths and are not supposed to be trying
to save others or do good deeds above and beyond the...I have no word to go
here :). I guess a link will suffice The Golden Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule) “Do unto others as you would
have them do unto you”

If each of us were living to those suggested rules then no one would need
helping/saving or whatever other good and nice things it is some people have
in store for others :eek:
I can understand it if someone feels the need to intervene where others are
being abused or starving etc... but I do not think it is right. There are
usually reasons for others hardships and it is usually brought about by the
action of others. It is these others that need the help...the help to see how
they should be doing as they would be done unto hehe excuse english. I
see news reports of aid workers helping starving Africans while the
government (those who are deemed to be the responsible people) of the same
are pumping all the countries resources into fighting wars.:confused: and
probably wars against western backed rebels. Makes you want to scream.

I am guilty of living the decadent western life and others in the third world
have to suffer for this to continue...how much am I willing to give up so others
may ease their burden...I don’t have an answer to that...I am programmed to
live the way I do...so I guess it is going to be a course in deprogramming that is
needed. he writes while pausing to sip his tea and nibble his biscuit from
China.
Does this make me right or wrong, good or evil? By trying to intervene
sometimes you may make the situation worse.

I was in Ireland recently and a cab driver told me we were driving through a
fair trade town...he explained that meant any companies that use sweat shops
and such are banned...not surprisingly you can’t buy Nike there...great on the
surface of it, but did they stop to think that the money the worker got from the
sweat shop was all they had? Now they have to starve! :confused:

Its a chaotic soup we live in and IMO it is the duty of each one of us to make it
a fair chaos.

In summary what I am saying is that every action has a reaction and that it is far too
complex to know right, wrong, good and evil.

I love the saying, “charity starts at home”...it’s another way of saying, “Get
your own house in order”? Maybe then everyone else may follow \o/

Ghislain

Ooo just thought of another one, “don’t judge lest ye be judged”

Edit: It took me ages to write that above and you beat it with two simple quotes
Thats Evil! :D

Salazius
05-29-2010, 08:40 AM
There is no such thing as good or bad. These concepts are purely cultural. IMO.

The alchemist seek nature, not cultural principles. Inner Black Opus is here for that, because what is true is never corrupted, what is totaly made up, fall appart.

Awani
05-29-2010, 01:26 PM
There is no such thing as good or bad. These concepts are purely cultural.

This is indeed true. A world where murder is normal is a world perhaps too advanced for us petty humans to even understand. My point that where there is respect there is good is only applicable to the present world culture.

A world of Supermen can't even be perceived... although we must strive towards it I think. It doesn't mean that such a world would be a world where murder is normal, just saying that if that would be the case then who knows what kind of world it would be. It doesn't have to be worse...

:cool:

solomon levi
06-04-2010, 05:38 PM
I don't find much value in the good/evil, right/wrong perspective.
It's all relative to one's values, I guess.
They say the word "sin" originally meant "to miss the mark",
(as in archery) so evil or bad is what doesn't achieve your aim/focus
and right is what does, according to that view.

Most labels are just so unnecessary for me. Things are what they are.
The closer one gets to the 'thing itself' without adding one's own 'mind crap'
to it is kind of my measure or aim.

AethreWicc
02-27-2012, 06:29 AM
If I may input my opinion, I have always seen one determinate factor in the decision of whether a concept is "evil:" Does the concept in question intentionally cause harm? And by harm, I do not simply mean the damage of the woodcutter's axe. I mean the directed application of hindering, destroying, or negatively affecting a thing. "Do as thou will, as it harms none," is the Wiccan Rede in purest form, and has shaped my view of this as such. Now without getting into whether some evils are necessary, which makes them in some way good, or some things being so good as to be detrimental to allow too much of it, the premise to me has always made the most perfect of sense. Although I am also in agreement with Solomon, in that the labeling of a thing is less important than the understanding of it.