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Weidenfeld
09-25-2010, 10:52 AM
Hello again,

in order to connect major works of true alchemists I'm going to show you that Cyliani took essential parts for his work "Hermes Devoile" .... from "Des Hermes Trismegists wahrer alter Naturweg". I think, this is somehow a great discovery, although I have to admit, that it wasn't me who had found out but a friend of mine.

Hopefully that connection will lead to a better understanding of both works and maybe to the solution of some riddles.

Let me have some time in order to extract the relevant passages and the necessary translations from the German original manuscript.

Salazius
09-25-2010, 02:23 PM
Hi Weidenfeld,

Yes, when I read these texts, I saw some parallels like :


I.C.H : "Vrai et vieux chemin d'hermès" 1782
Il se fait alors un dépôt composé de trois Sels ainsi qu’il suit :
1° Un Sel tout ouvert et cottoneux qui ressemble à une huile olive très subtile.
2° Un Nitre très délié
3° Un Sel Alkali

Cyliani : "Hermès Dévoilé" 1832
Après l'avoir dissoute, ils l'exposent dans un lieu froid pour obtenir trois couches de sel.
Le premier sel a l'aspect de laine, le deuxième d'un nitre à très petites
aiguilles et le troisième est un sel fixe alcalin.


Cyliani "Hermes Unveiled" 1832
After being dissolved, they expose it in a cold place in order to have three layers of salt.
The first salt has the appearance of wool, the second is a very small nitre needles and the third is a fixed alkaline salt.

I.C.H: "True and old way of Hermes" 1782
It then makes a deposit made of three Salts as follows:
1 ° A Salt all opened and cotton that looks like a very subtle olive oil.
2 ° A very slender Nitre.
3 ° A Salt Alkali.

We can see that it is very similar indeed. it is also possible that there is a transmition from adept to disciple, a R+C order of some kind probably ?

But, we can find another kind of text having the same similarities, it is the "Recreations Hermetiques", another very very good text ! Making exactly the same references to these three salts; here is the extract whic is quite similar to Cyliani's text :


Lorsqu'on dissout le Mercure dans l'esprit astral, et qu'on a séparé la terre par décantation et lotion, pour n'en rien perdre, on pose la dissolution dans un lieu frais, et il se fait un dépôt de trois sels savoir, l'un cotonneux, qui nage à la superficie et qui est le mercure ; le second qui est aiguillé et de nature du Nitre, et qui est entre deux eaux ; et le troisième qui est un sel fixe et minéral qui se dépose au fond.


When the Mercury is dissolved into the astral spirit, and when we have separated the earth by decantation and lotion, in order to lose nothing, the solution is exposed into a clod place, and there is a desposit of three salts, to know ; a cotton one, which swim on the surface and which is the mercury, the second one, which has the form of needled, is of the Niter's nature, and between two waters, is the third, which is a fix mineral salt, on the bottom.

This text was quoted by Fulcanelli and Canseliet in their books.
It was written in the 19th Ctry, and the author is anonymous.

But, we can be sure that in all these texts, it is the same work presented.
There is also more parallels, but this one (of the 3 salts) is enough.

Weidenfeld
09-25-2010, 02:39 PM
Thanks Salazius,

yes, you have provided us with the sufficient passages, and yes "Recreations Hermetiques" could be referred to the same source. I need not to repeat the same considerations.

I assume that even within the work of Christophorus Parisienus could be found such similarities.

Salazius
09-25-2010, 02:43 PM
Christophorus Parisienus : who is this author ? I never heard about him, he wrote several texts ?

Weidenfeld
09-25-2010, 03:17 PM
Christophorus Parisienus : who is this author ? I never heard about him, he wrote several texts ?

One of the better known works from Christoph of Paris, otherwise known as Christopher Parisienis, is his Elucidarius. I think the original works are all in Latin and should be contained in the Theatrum Chemicum and similar compendia.

See http://www.levity.com/alchemy/almss30.html

3650. Leiden MS. Vossianus Chym. F. 43.
36 folios. Paper. 302x210mm. End of 16th Century.
Christophorus Parisiensis, Elucidarius Artis Transmutatoriae Metallorum.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3654. Leiden MS. Vossianus Chym. Q. 3.
228 folios. Paper. 223x175mm. 16th Century [1584.]
[Christopher of Paris, complete works in French.]
1. f1-15 Medulla artis.
2. f16-17 La pierre végétable.
3. f17v-45v Sommette.
4. f46-68v Violette.
5. f69-167 Lucidaire.
6. f167v-169v Alphabet apertoire.
7. f170-212 Pratique (de l'alphabet apertoire.)
8. f212v-215 De la quinte essence.

teofrast40
09-25-2010, 03:20 PM
yes, thank you indeed Salazius.
I've been studying Les Recreations (that I love deeply) recently, and I was wondering where I had already red about those three salts. It was Cyliani!! I remembered something similar in the Golden Chain, but I was wrong, as I checked and the author talks only about crystals of nitre and alkali, so the third and most important salt is missing there. This confirms my suspect of the Golden Chain to be a little too spagyrical in its approach to alchemy.
At this point gettind hold of a french or english version of Des Hermes Trismegists becomes quite important to me, I think I'll have to shell for the paper book..

there's Christophorus Parisiensis, Elucidarius artis transmutatoriae metallorum summa major in volume VI of the Theatrum Chemicum by Zetzner (you can find all six volumes on googlebooks)

with humility
t

Weidenfeld
09-25-2010, 03:30 PM
But, we can find another kind of text having the same similarities, it is the "Recreations Hermetiques", another very very good text ! Making exactly the same references to these three salts; here is the extract whic is quite similar to Cyliani's text :
Is somebody aware about a translation of "Recreations Hermetiques" into English or even into German ?

teofrast40
09-25-2010, 03:56 PM
hallo weidenfeld,
it's the same problem.: to be confortable in studying alchemy one should know latin (greek and arabic would help too), french, english, italian and german. and there's always at least one laguage missing! for me the problem it's german (actually my latin is a bit rusty too).
Sadly, I'm not aware of any translation of Les Recreations.
You can find the french text (that you'll have to epurate from the comments and notes of the curator) here:
http://herve.delboy.perso.sfr.fr/recreations_hermetiques.html

here's the bibliographical references:
Ms. 362 dans la bibliotheque du Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle de Paris, folios 1039 -1064 .

editions:

Récréations Hermétiques, in Deux traité alchimiques du XIX siècle, présentation et commentaires par B. Husson, L'Omnium Littéraire, Paris 1964, pp. 237-258.

Récréations Hermétiques, in Anthologie de l'Achimie, avertissement, introduction et commentaires par B. Husson, Belfond, Paris 1971, pp. 301 - 321.

Cent cinquante scholies, dans La Tourbe des Philosophes, 1981, XIV, pp. 34 - 43 e XV - XVI, pp. 47 - 56

G. Pasquier, L'entrée du labyrinthe ou Introduction à l'Alchimie suivie des Récréations hermétiques et des Scholies, deux manuscrits d'alchimie du XIX siècle, Editions Dervy, 1992, pp. 91 - 156.

if it can help, I made a translation into italian that you can find here:

http://www.labirintoermetico.com/01Alchimia/ricreazioni_ermetiche.htm

with humility
t

Salazius
09-25-2010, 04:28 PM
Hi,

Thanks Weidenfeld and Teofrast for the references of Christophe de Paris (curiously he is Italian). I will seek forward, I had the 'theatrum' in high resolution, google version is poor ! And my latin is old now.

Yes always a language missing ! :) Arabic and greek, not for me yet... there is just enough with latin and german for the moment !

The version of Les Recreations in 'Anthologie' of Bernard Husson is just an extract, the whole text epured here :

http://www.4shared.com/account/document/HAWSPMQK/LES_RCRATIONS_HERMTIQUES.html

http://www.4shared.com/account/dir/HXLPIu5h/sharing.html?rnd=87

The Scholies are also from the same author and are also interesting, thy are in the pdf above too (french).

Yes Teofrast, I also think that Kirchweger is a little to much spagyrical in his approach in the first two parts of the Aurea Catena Homeri, but it changes, seemingly, a little in the third part, which is more alchemical, but I don't think we have the same kind of work like in ICH, Cyliani and Les Recreations.

Weidenfeld
09-25-2010, 05:13 PM
Theofrast40 thanks for the links.

Yes, I came across most scarce Arabic Mss never translated up to now. Although there is a special Yahoo Group entirely dedicated for the translation of Arabic alchemical Mss, it is an extremely tedious work and of course, not for free if you have to engage someone who knows Arabic very well.

Weidenfeld
09-25-2010, 05:22 PM
Salazius,

thanks for the links.


I will seek forward, I had the 'theatrum' in high resolution, google version is poor ! And my latin is old now.
You will find a quite good resolution there:
http://www.wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=11637&dirds=1&tab=1


The Scholies are also from the same author and are also interesting, thy are in the pdf above too (french).
I think, I have seen it on the site of Thierry Ducreux but it seems that he no longer is updating its contents.


Yes Teofrast, I also think that Kirchweger is a little to much spagyrical in his approach in the first two parts of the Aurea Catena Homeri, but it changes, seemingly, a little in the third part, which is more alchemical, but I don't think we have the same kind of work like in ICH, Cyliani and Les Recreations.
In addition to the upper statement there is absolutely no proof that Kirchweger had written the 3rd part of the Aurea Catena.

True Initiate
09-25-2010, 08:11 PM
Theofrast40 thanks for the links.

Yes, I came across most scarce Arabic Mss never translated up to now. Although there is a special Yahoo Group entirely dedicated for the translation of Arabic alchemical Mss, it is an extremely tedious work and of course, not for free if you have to engage someone who knows Arabic very well.

What group is this?

Salazius
09-25-2010, 08:56 PM
Yes Weidenfeld, it was there that I had the High resolution of these books. It's a good library !

Concerning the third part, yes, the only proof is that it was written in Utrech in 1654 !

Weidenfeld
09-26-2010, 10:56 AM
What group is this?

It is: Arabic_Alchemy@yahoogroups.com.

I've to look for the subscribers conditions, but I think it's on invitation only. Those who might be interested should send me a PN.

@edit. the group isn't listed in the directory. Joining to the group is only possible by invitation.

teofrast40
09-28-2010, 10:47 AM
hallo,
in the thread on the Compass of the wise Green Lion makes the following statement:


The author of Compass of the Wise was the Master of Cyliani.
Cyliani was the Master of Dr. G. Perard.
G. Perard was the Master of A.L. Gerber.
And A.L. Gerber was one of the Masters of ... Fulcanelli.

regarding Perard, I already mentioned the commentary on Hermes Devoilè

http://www.france-secret.com/alchimie_art6.htm
http://www.france-secret.com/alchimie_art7.htm

regarding A.L. Gerber, could it be instead A.L.Gerbant?
he's the author of the letter published on 'La Tourbe des Philosophes' N°18, 1982, I paste here the text.
with humility



CORRESPONDANCE SUR LA DISSOLUTION DU CORPS METALLIQUE


A Monsieur Magain à Metz

Monsieur et ami,

Votre invitation me comble à la fois du plaisir de votre amitié et du regret de ne pouvoir me rendre près de vous. Il y a loin d’Amboise à Metz. Mon âge me rend sensible aux hasards de l’auberge, aux fatigues de la diligence. Et puis je ne peux laisser le domaine entre les mains de mes gens à cette époque où mon absence se ferait sentir. Croyer bien que je préfèrerais jouir de votre si agréable hospitalité & poursuivre nos conversations hermétiques comme nous le faisions voici trois ans.

Votre correspondance me fait voir que vous avez fort bien compris la dissolution du corps métallique et la confection de l’œuf. Vous me demandez cependant pourquoi vous avez échoué dans l’apparition des signes, malgré la justesse de vos opérations. Ne pouvant vous l’expliquer de vive voix je vous le confie par cette lettre que je vous prie instantamment de tenir secrète.

Votre agent dissolvant est dénué de vertu. Vous avez beau l’employer convenablement, sa faiblesse ne lui permet pas d’animer la substance métallique. Il dissout bien mais ne nourrit pas ce qu’il a dissout.

Souvenez-vous de quelques principes généraux qui vous aideront à comprendre ce que vous avez à faire.

Azoth & ignis tibi sufficiunt, a-t-on dit. Ce sont les deux agents de cette animation. Toute votre attention doit se porter sur l’Azoth. Si vous lisez Arnauld de Villeneuve vous en serez convaincu..

Depuis plus d’un demi-siècle que l’on a mis de l’ordre dans la chimie, Messieurs de Lavoisier, Guytton de Morveau, Beaumé, ont convenu d’une nomenclature précise, mais en attribuant un peut au hasard des noms anciennement connus.

Cependant c’est Monsieur de Lavoisier lui-même qui a fermement tenu à donner le nom d’azote à cette partie de l’air qu’on appelait moufette, et cela contre l’intention de ces compagnons. Le nom d’azote a donc été adopté. Monsieur de Lavoisier était bien plus instruit dans la science d’Hermès que ne l’ont pensé ses successeurs. Ceux qui comprennent les deux idées de la chimie le distingueront sans peine dans ses écrits. L’azote de l’air, soyez en certain, est bien l’azote des philosophes. On ne le trouve que dans les corps qui ont eu vie, au moment de leur décomposition, il finit par se résoudre en ammoniaque. Monsieur Boussingault a fait tout récemment de remarquables analyses qui prouvent que des brouillards et la rosée contiennent de l’acide du nitre. Il est vrai que ce savant chimiste n’a eu d’autre intention que celle de prouver que l’azote des plantes provient de l’air et de la pluie ; sans prendre garde au bénéfice que la terre minérale en retire elle aussi. Et que sa découvert confirme la Table d’Emeraude qui nous apprend que le Soleil et la Lune sont le père et la mère, que le vent l’a porté dans son ventre, & que la terre est sa nourrice. La semence astrale du soleil et de la lune se dissout dans la rosée quand cette dernière se condense. Il nous appartient alors de la mettre en terre où elle sera nourrie.

Voici en détail comment il vous faut opérer.

Vous ferez provision d’au moins douze livres de gypse débarrassé de la terre étrangère et des cailloux. Vous le concasserez en fragments de 3 lignes à ¼ de pouce, mais non pas en poudre.

Il le faut calciner à un feu léger dans une bassine en le mouvant sans cesse afin de le débarrasser de son eau crue. Il devient blanc, opaque et friable. C’est la terre pure où vous sèmerez la semence de l’or soli-lunaire.

Vous le disposerez en couche de deux doigts d’épaisseur dans des plats ou des terrines en terre vernissée qui ne soit pas poreuse. L’opération doit se faire au début du printemps en tenant compte du climat propre au pays. Chaque matin, vous arroserez les terrines avec de l’urine fraîche pour imbiber légèrement la terre blanche, mais sans la noyer. Il faut les placer en exposition à ciel ouvert. La terrasse haute de votre maison, où donnent les fenêtres de votre cabinet de physique, est tout à fait convenable.

Commencez au 1er quartier de la lune, dès que le soleil est couché. Rentrez les terrines au lever du soleil. Elles auront reçu la lumière lunaire, puis à la fin de la nuit, la rosée qui reste imprégnée des rayons de la lune.

A midi, mettez les terres au soleil jusqu’au déclin de sa force afin de dessécher la matière. Si vous voyer la terre sèche, donnez-lui modérément nouvelle urine. Recommencez cette suite d’opérations chaque nuit jusqu’au dernier quartier.

Pendant toute la matinée il faut laisser la terre digérer l’esprit, sans évaporer celui-ci mal à propos, et ne sécher que l’après-midi.

Ce travail prend environ 16 jours. Le restant du mois, c’est-à-dire entre le dernier quartier, la nouvelle lune, et le 1er quartier, la lune n’est pas visible de nuit. Vous consacrerez ce temps à une autre sorte d’opération. Le contenu de chaque terrine sera chauffé doucement à ciel ouvert, à la chaleur semblable à celle de l’eau bouillante en remuant continuellement avec une spatule. Puis, une ou deux heures avant la fin de la nuit, on expose à la rosée du matin, et de midi à trois heures on dessèche au soleil, et ainsi de suite jusqu’au premier quartier suivant.

Ce cycle d’opérations sera recommencé tout l’été, de Mars à Octobre vous pouvez effectuer sept ou huit cycles semblables. Gardez-vous de la pluie ; elle ne ruinerait pas nécessairement la matière mais elle vous retarderait beaucoup en vous obligeant à dessécher doucement ; vous perdriez du temps et le bénéfice des expositions.

Vient ensuite le travail d’hiver. Vous avez maintenant la semence du père, le soleil, et de la mère la lune, qui ont été portées dans le ventre du vent & sont tombées dans la terre nourricière. Rassemblez toute vos terres dans un grand récipient bien bouché pendant 6 semaines à une douce chaleur de 40 à 45 degrés du thermomètre de Réaumur. L’esprit se fixera dans le corps par lui-même. Calcinez alors la terre dans une bassine ouverte en la remuant sans arrêt pour chasser les esprits puants. Usez d’un feu ménagé mais assez vif pour faire fumer. Quand rien ne fume plus, procédez à l’extraction du sel.

Il vous faut pour cela une bonne réserve de rosée distillée une seule fois pour la débarrasser des poussières, insectes et débris qui l’accompagnent.

La terre sera lessivée avec cette rosée à douce température, la solution filtrée, évaporée à tiède jusqu’à pellicule, cristallisée & séchée. Relavez le résidu pour que rien ne soit perdu.

Ce sel est très impur, une calcination à feu modéré le noircit. Une seconde lixivation suivie de filtrage sur papier Joseph et recristallisation le rendront plus clair. En réitérant 3 ou 4 fois cette suite de purification vous aurez un sel nitre bien blanc qui ne noircit plus à la calcination.

Telle sera la pureté du nitre philosophique, telle sera la pureté de la dissolution du corps quand vous ferez le second travail que vous connaissez bien, ainsi que j’ai pu en juger par nos conversations, le jour de notre promenade au bord de la Moselle.

Ce nitre seul peut donner l’azoth soli-lunaire au corps métallique qui en a été privé en quittant la mine nourricière. Lui seul transcend la subtile vertu du soleil et de la lune dont il a été imprégné pendant sa confection. Le salpêtre ordinaire que l’on fabrique dans les nitrières en contient à la vérité une minime fraction, mais à un degré si faible qu’on nez peut parvenir à bout de lui faire animer le métal naissant.

Si vous faites réflexion, vous verrez que dans les nitrières artificielles on emploie des plâtras provenant de la démolition des vieilles étables, imprégnés de l’urine des bestiaux, dont l’azote nourrit l’azote de l’air auquel on expose les plâtras pendant deux ou trois années avant de les lessiver. La pluie et le soleil opèrent au hasard des intempéries, n’y fixant que très peu de la vertu astrale. Tandis que notre pratique qui ne fait que suivre la nature élaoigne les circonstances adverses et profite des favorables.

J’ai l’espoir que l’an prochain vous aurez pu faire une bonne dissolution de votre corps métallique en vous aidant de ces détails.

Autre chose. La matière que j’ai vu dans votre laboratoire provient des Vosges. Elle n’est pas de mauvaise qualité, mais son défaut est de contenir beaucoup de particules de quartz disséminées, qui en rendent le broyage malaisé. Celle que j’emploie est en provenance de Huelgoat en Bretagne. Elle est parfaite parce qu’elle se présente en gros cristaux carrés brillants à peine souillés de terre au dehors. Après lavage on peut la broyer si finement qu’on pourrait en peindre. Si vous le désirez je vous en ferai parvenir. Le caractère qui vous fera immédiatement juger de la bonté de ce minéral est son poids. Pesé dans l’eau il ne doit perdre que 13 pour cent de son poids, s’il perd davantage c’est qu’il est terreux. Il contient toujours de faibles quantités d’argent & d’or en voie de croissance. Ces métaux qui sont encore à l’état séminal dans cette mine se réveillent dans le bain nitreux non corrosif s’il est lui-même animé & animant. Vous connaissez le tour de main qui permet de faire la dissolution. Ne la hâtez point. Et appliquez vous à comprendre les précieux enseignements du chapitre Praeludium Prosimetricum du Chymica Vanus dont nous avons si longuement conversé l’an passé. Malgré son apparente obscurité il contient de profondes vues.

Et pour vous confirmer dans la claire compréhension de votre entreprise, méditez en épluchant les termes le 2ème paragraphe du Memoriale qui clot le livre, où on lit : Nam dum Rex in sua est reductus principia, sulphurque sive anima solis in promptu, debet per familiarem istum Philosophicum-Spiritum ea amiabiliter absque strepitu seu adustione in oleum resolvi etc.

Permettez moi de vous suggérer les précautions que voici : L’exposition des terrines contenant la terre blanche absorbante serait préférablement faite sur la terrasse où on n’accede que par votre cabinet, ce qui écarterait la curiosité ou la maladresse de vos domestiques. A cette hauteur la rosée est moins abondante que sur le pré, mais suffisante pour imprégner la terre de son esprit.

Au contraire, il serait expédient de recueillir sur le pré la quantité de rosée nécessaire aux purifications du sel. Cette cueillette est fastidieuse mais facile & rustique. J’ai remarqué qu’il s’en dépose beaucoup dans le petit vallon où est le moulin. Si vous procédez aux dissolutions et lavages de la terre avec exactitude, il vous suffira de huit pintes de rosée en tout ; sans vous fatiguer davantage.

Vous avez le temps de réfléchir à tout cela d’ici Mars-Avril. Si quelque difficulté vient à votre esprit d’ici là, faites moi part de votre incertitude et j’essaierai de lever vos doutes.

Je termine, Monsieur et Ami, en vous priant de présenter mes hommages à Madame Magain & en vous assurant de mon dévouement.

2 octobre 1862

A.L. de Gerbant

Green Lion
09-28-2010, 11:28 AM
Yes Teofrast. I made a mistake when writing. The good name was A L Gerbant.

garvolt2002
09-28-2010, 10:16 PM
Thanks Theofrast for clearing this up. I never heard this A.L Gerber before and when I asked Green Lion in a private email I made made nothing the wiser.
Thanks again very much appreciated.

teofrast40
09-29-2010, 08:47 AM
Hi,
Thanks Green Lion, I see..
I find very interesting what this letter says about the naming of nitrogen (azote) by Lavoisier, specially if I put this in relation with the (IMHO spagyrical) identification tout court of Universal Spirit with nitre, made by Kirchweger or Grimaldy...
with humility
t

teofrast40
10-02-2010, 12:24 AM
hallo,
at last I've been able to read Des hermes Tresmegists and I'm quite amazed by the similarities between this text and Les recreations hermetiques. those are too many to be reported here, in certain cases there are sentences almost identical (one exemple for all: the matter during fermentation makes the noise of an ant-heap, this is a quite unusual similitude that is reported in both textes). it is evident that they talk about the same procedure.
I would dare to say that the person who wrote les Recreations had the text of I.C.H. in his hands.
thanks Green Lion for making me aware of such a beautiful book, it is now included in my rumination pool.
now back to re-re-re-read Cyliani..
t

Weidenfeld
10-06-2010, 06:03 PM
But much more important might be what one has to extract from these writings. What might be the idea behind ? What are your conclusions ? What is the main key in these texts ? What is its quintessence ?

teofrast40
10-07-2010, 09:40 AM
Hallo Weisenfield,
telling what's the idea behind an alchemical text is one of the most desperate tasks, in my opinion.
That being said, both Les recreations and des Hermes (Cyliani being more canonical in its allegoric setup) are quite uncommon for their clarity in presenting a procedure (this by the way should make us more suspectful: another champion of clarity is Geber, and its wickedness is known to everyone). This procedure resonates with the hypotesis I made myself of the Work, after reading the ancients. As any hypotesis made without having attained the light of Nature, it is without utility by herself. I always try to keep myself from explaining an alchemical text, both from a logic/scientific and a symbolic/analogic standpoint, as I'm convinced that this has to come from another kind of Understanding. The sources are unanimous on this: this knowledge can only be revealed from God or from a friend (which is quite rare). So in the end it is more a gut feeling that I have with this works. Anyway, another interesting thing about des hermes and les recreations is that they give us a very coherent interpretation of the symbolic corpus of alchemy. Try going back to one of the classics with these texts in mind to understand what I mean. It fits strangely almost everywhere. This by no way makes this method more authoritative, if one considers the polysemic nature of symbols.
The more, all these three texts talk about the exactly same procedure, explained in the same order, and using the same exact terminology, which is also quite uncommon. Where they differ mostly is in the beginning and in the references to the subject, and maybe it's rightly there that our triangulation efforts should concentrate.
what about your ideas?

whit humility
t
Edit:
P.S. I realize just now that Cyliani in his prefaction to Hermes Devoilè (that I was not aware of) talks of an auteur anonyme, imprimé à Leipzick en 1732, Des Hermes dates Leipzig 1782. Could it be a corruption?

Aleilius
10-09-2010, 11:30 AM
This is a somewhat understandable translation of the text that was posted by teofrast40 (translated by Google translator):


CORRESPONDENCE ON THE DISSOLUTION OF METAL BODY


To Mr. Metz Magain

Gentleman and friend,

Your invitation to me to fill both the pleasure of your friendship and regret not being able to go near you. There is far from Amboise to Metz. My age makes me sensitive to the hazards of the inn, to the hardships of care. And then I can leave the field in the hands of my people at this time when my absence would be felt. Believe me, I'd rather enjoy your hospitality so nice & tight to continue our conversations as we did three years ago.

Your correspondence shows me that you have well understood the dissolution of the metal body and the construction of the egg. But you ask me why you failed in the onset of the signs, despite the correctness of your operations. Unable to explain it verbally I entrust you with this letter I pray you instantly without waiting to keep secret.

Your agent solvent is devoid of virtue. Although you use it properly, its weakness does not allow him to lead the metallic substance. It dissolves well but do not feed it disbanded.

Remember a few general principles that will help you understand what you have to do.

Ignis & Azoth tibi sufficiunt, Has told. These are the two agents in this animation. All your attention should be focused on the Azoth. If you read Arnauld de Villeneuve you'll be convinced ..

For over half a century that has brought order in chemistry, Lavoisier's gentlemen, Guytton Morveau, balsam, agreed on a precise nomenclature, but gave a bit random names formerly known.

But it is Mr. Lavoisier himself was firmly held in the name of nitrogen that part of the air called skunk, and it cons for these fellows. The name nitrogen was therefore adopted. Mr. Lavoisier's was much more educated in the science of Hermes as did his successors thought. Those who understand both the ideas of chemistry easily distinguished in his writings. The nitrogen in the air, Be sure, is nitrogen philosophers. It is found only in the body that have been living at the time of decomposition, it finally resolved into ammonia. Mr. Boussingault recently did a remarkable analysis demonstrating that mist and dew contain the acid of nitre. It is true that this learned chemist had no other intention than to prove that the plant nitrogen from the air and rain, without noticing that the benefit derives mineral soil as well. And discovered that its confirmed the Emerald Tablet which teaches us that the Sun and Moon are the father and mother, the wind carries in her womb, and that the earth is its nurse. Astral seed of the sun and the moon dissolves in the dew when it condenses. It behooves us then to put in the ground where it is fed.

Here in detail how you should operate.

You will supply at least two pounds of gypsum rid of foreign soil and stones. You crushed into fragments by 3 ¼ inch lines, but not powder.

It must be calcined at a traffic light in a basin by moving constantly to rid it of its raw water. It turns white, opaque and friable. This is the pure land where you sow the seed of gold soli-lunar.

You will have the layer thickness of two fingers in dishes or bowls glazed earthenware that is not porous. The operation should be done in early spring, taking into account country-specific climate. Each morning, you water the pots with fresh urine to soak the soil slightly white, but without drowning. They should be placed on display in the open. The upper terrace of your house where the windows of your practice of physics, is quite suitable.

Start at the first quarter of the moon, when the sun has set. Go terrines at sunrise. They have received the moonlight, then at the end of the night, the dew is still steeped in the moonlight.

At noon, the sun set the land until the decline of his power to dry the material. If you see the earth dry, give it new moderately urine. Repeat this sequence of operations each night until the last quarter.

Throughout the morning we must leave the earth in mind digest without evaporating it wrongfully, and not as dry in the afternoon.

This takes about 16 days. The remainder of the month, that is to say between the last quarter, new moon, and the first quarter, the moon is not visible at night. You'll spend that time with another kind of operation. The contents of each pot will be heated gently open, heat similar to that of boiling water, stirring constantly with a spatula. Then, one or two hours before the end of the night, exposing the morning dew, and 12:00 to 3:00 is dried in the sun, and so on until the first quarter following.

This cycle of operations will be resumed throughout the summer, from March to October you can make seven or eight similar cycles. Beware of rain and it does not necessarily ruin the material but it will delay much by forcing you to slowly dry out, you lose the benefit of time and exhibits.

Then comes the winter work. You now have the seed of the father, the sun and mother moon, which were laid in the belly of the wind & fell in the Foodland. Gather all your land in a large well-sealed container for 6 weeks at a gentle heat for 40 to 45 degrees of the thermometer of Reaumur. The spirit will set into the body by itself. Ignite then land in a basin in the open, stirring constantly to remove the stinking minds. Employ a fire spared but enough to burn bright. When no longer smoke, proceed with the extraction of salt.

You need to do a good supply of Dew distilled once to get rid of dust, insects and debris that accompany it.

The earth will be washed out with this sweet dew temperature, the solution filtered, evaporated to wrap up warm, crystalline & dried. The residue to wash again that nothing is lost.

This salt is very impure, calcination at the moderate fire blackens. Leaching followed by a second filter paper on Joseph and recrystallization will make it more clear. By repeating this 3 or 4 times after purification you will have a very white salt nitre which darkens further calcination.

This will be the purity of philosophical nitre, as is the purity of the dissolution of the body when you make the second job that you know well, so I could judge from our conversations on the day of our walk along the Moselle .

This alone can give the nitre azoth soli-lunar metal body which has been in private foster leaving the mine. Alone transcend the subtle under the sun and moon which has been impregnated during its making. Ordinary saltpetre which is manufactured in nitrières contains the truth a tiny fraction but to a degree so low that the nose can achieve after him lead the nascent metal.

If you think you will see that in the artificial nitrières are employed rubble from the demolition of old barns, impregnated with the urine of cattle, including nitrogen fed nitrogen from the air to which the plaster is exposed during two or three years before washing. The rain and sun operate at random from the weather, there is very little setting under the astral. While our practice is simply following the nature élaoigne adverse circumstances and take advantage of favorable.

I hope that next year you'll have done a good dissolution of metal in your body helping you to these details.

Something else. The material I have seen in your lab from the Vosges. It is not bad, but its default is to contain many particles of quartz scattered, which makes grinding difficult. The one I use is from Huelgoat in Britain. It's perfect because it occurs as large crystals bright square just outside the contaminated land. After washing it can be ground so finely that we could paint. If you want I'll send you. The character that you will immediately judge the character of this mineral is its weight. Weighed in water, it should lose that 13 percent of its weight if it loses more than it is earthy. It still contains small amounts of silver & gold in the process of growth. These metals are still in the mine in seminal wake up in the bath nitrous sweet if he even hosted & animating. You know the sleight of hand which allows for the dissolution. Do not rush the issue. You understand and apply the valuable lessons of the chapter's Praeludium Prosimetricum Chymica Vanus we talked so long last year. Despite its apparent darkness it contains deep views.

And to confirm you in the clear understanding of your business, ponder the words while looking in the second paragraph of the Memorial, which closes the book, which reads: Nam dum Rex is in sua principia reductus, sulphurque anima sive in solis Promptu, debet per familiarem istum Philosophicum-Spiritum Others amiabiliter Absque strepitu seu adustione in oleum resolv etc..

Let me suggest the following precautions: Exposure of pots containing white clay absorbent preferably be made on the terrace accessible only by your office, which obviate the curiosity or the awkwardness of your home. At this height the dew is less abundant than on the field, but sufficient to impregnate the earth with his mind.

Instead, it would be expedient to collect the amount of pre Dew necessary purification of salt. This collection is tedious but easy & rustic. I noticed that he laid a lot in the little valley where the mill. If you follow the dissolutions and washes the earth with accuracy, you just eight pints of dew at all, without additional strain.

You have time to think about all this by March-April. If any difficulty arises in your mind by then, let me know your uncertainty and try to raise doubts.

I conclude, Sir and Friend, begging you to present my respects to Mrs Magain & assure you of my devotion.

October 2, 1862

A.L. Gerber

It's possible to understand what's being said, and to make the process out. However, I would like to know if a better translation of this exists? Maybe somebody can clean this one up. I would like to clean it up myself, but I don't have time!

Aleilius
10-09-2010, 11:44 AM
A translation of "HERMES UNVEILED by CYLIANI" by Google translator:


HERMES UNVEILED by CYLIANI
With explanations of G. PERARD


SIR,

You ask if you could get an ex-emplaire of Hermes unveiled Cyliani. This book is currently
found, even among the booksellers, for just published it disappeared
as if by magic. Whatever I have I owe to him Cyliani same.

You know how the old alchemists are obscure to
So much so that the more they seem clearer, and we must beware
Cyliani, which was a very subtle mind, however, did not put no less than
all the space between the youth of old age to pierce com-
pletely the veil of their mysterious language.
Believing that the fire was used vulgar chemists
the preparation of the philosophical, he nearly lost the sight
contemplating the various ingredients in its melting crucibles. It
tried everything from the common sulphate of iron sulphide of antimony, including
zinc, arsenic and many pyrites. He was continually
disappointed. Then he changed his route when he touched
to ruin and despair, and he found the marvelous secret.

And Trevisan, he looked in the past years
the pains and labors unnecessary and was moved with pity at the thought of
large amount of chemists and poor who eke out their sincere
Youth and health in false work. Therefore, in
order to help them, he wrote the most admirable treatise that has
was never written, knowing that when you turn the raw material
and we discovered the secret fire, there is still much work to
accomplish.

Page 2

So many authors who have written about art have spagyric
never have gone further, despite their subtlety of mind, as Blaise
Vigénère who spent fifty years and died without unnecessary labors
being able to stone, though he knew the material and the secret fire.
Cyliani, merely mention the matter and the fire-
decree, which after all are not hard to find (especially
he designates himself enough) wrote in all sincerity
the various operations that lead to great work, so much so that
his treatise is as accurate of its kind that any treaty
of modern chemistry.
Since you're interested in alchemy and you
all the qualities of heart and spirit to succeed,
I transcribe for you this pamphlet, adding the comments I
received from the lips of the author and are as valuable as his
Treaty is now very rare. You will no longer anything to be desired,
it will do well to meditate and then put their hands in the work.
I omit the preface, which is the story of a dream that I will
tell you faithfully accompanying verbal explanations
and very explicit by the author.

PRECIS TEXT OF THE PREFACE TO UNVEIL HERMES

Thinking at the foot of a tree, Cyliani see a nymph whose es
presence is heavenly, she guides him to the door of a temple in-
What is the enclosed material.
This temple is guarded by a dragon which only death can
access. To kill the nymph gives the author a spear and a liquid solvent.
He then starts to blush the fire, then using the liquid
it dissolves the lock of the temple and opened the door. He kills the dragon
behind, a sudden glow of his spear. It penetrates
in the temple are two crystal vases.

Page 3

The first is adorned with a crown of gold to three landmarks, it
bears this inscription:''Material containing the two-Matie
res or metal material.'' The second, which is decorated with a silver crown at nine
star as an inscription:''Spirit''astral. Cyliani is then posse
ssion of everything that is necessary to undertake the BIG-OEUERV.

That is now the explanation of the dream of Cyliani such
he gave it to me himself. It is not in his treatise.
1 - The nymph symbolizes divine inspiration without which we can
know nothing definite concerning the beginning of the magisterium.
2 - The temple is the raw material that is very difficult
dissolving to separate the two principles it contains.
3 - The spear is the fire that is the real secret agent and separator
that the artist must prepare itself.
4 - The liquid solvent lock prepares the material to be contested
by the release agent. The artist must also be prepared.
5 - The dragon is the excremental matter and sulfur-type
reuse or arsenic that holds prisoners principles of metal
stone.
6 - The first vessel indicates that when the dragon is killed, we can
collect both metallic materials such as Barrick Gold, which are
male and female semen metals.
7 - The second vase indicates that emerges from the raw material
an astral spirit of nature that Argentina must be careful not to
let fly as smoke, but to collect précieu-
investment in a container, where it freezes itself.

In summary there is:
1 - Set the two kinds of metal
2 - The astral spirit condensed.
This leaves more than the work. Cyliani indicates
by the following.

Aleilius
10-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Last one:


To follow: the first operation of philosophers Mercury

Zéphyrin

Such, Sir, this admirable treatise. So that all you need do nothing more for work and every success for yourself, I would add the following information about what might remain obscure in this booklet. They correspond to the passages I underlined and the letters checked against.

A. He is very gentle heat from the water bath.
B. We must put the "Pelican" is a glass vase in a place that is not cold.
C. Can be distilled by inclination, but it is best done through a small glass syringe and gently as possible by removing the supernatant, and it operates safely and accurately.
D. Here we must mitigate the heat of the bath as much as possible and to a good warmth.
E. It is the astral spirit. When we lack it is always easy to redo, but it is better to have a good supply in advance.
F. It is a very elastic term, which is here not likely to numerical precision. The weight in question is to prevent flooding of the area by the flood waters. "We must proceed slowly and gradually.
G. The best way to solve the water bath is to add a little water to both cool and then remove the overflow of the vessel containing the bath.
H. In each complete operation, the colors follow the same invariable order, hence the recommendation Cyliani, because if you saw the red before black is that the virgin soil would be burned and useless for "The Great Work "
I. Cyliani you hear about it here from his dream, in which he shows the first solution of the substance of the stone allowing the inion of the two principles that are metal and Mars and Venus are the basis of the "Great Work"
J. This is the philosophical spring marks the beginning of the work tight.
K. That is the key secret fire which allows the condensation of the astral spirit of the same nature as the stone.
L. The virtue of this astral spirit is strengthened by degrees, through a precise distillation in a water bath repeated seven times.
M. That is to say that the astral spirit raised its fire in the area to which he communicated life.
N. From here, there are many variations in methods of work to such an extent that it is the real key contradictions of philosophers who did not work exactly the same way although the phenomena and the ultimate goal to have well been the same. - Follow the method Cyliani, it is simple and easy and does not confuse.
O. It's the purple of Cassius that everything commercially prepared. It is quite easy to find for a few francs more than enough.
P. That is to say that little dry heat of sun which I have already told you the last word.
Q. This is the true practitioner's response to allegations purely gratuitous pontificating idiots who have never laid hands away from the pen to work in tight, and yet present themselves as followers. - The mode is filled with books as ridiculous and dangerous to these singular idiots.
It says that the common mercury and gold are for either the beginning or the middle or end of the work and they provide the best reasons.
A little more and the "Hermetic Magisterium" would like the Creation that God made it from nothing. As it is the image, all true believers claim, it should also be nothing.
O madness of fools logic !!!.... That says it all.
In truth, the raw material, is neither mercury nor the gold trade. It is a mineral salt that nitrous is like a stone and you know it well because you have shown me one day in your backyard, remember you.
But the raw material is properly prepared, gold and mercury enter the scene and have their uses, although strictly speaking we can do without, but not like fake fans wish.
Both metals are used to determine the stone to métalléité, this is the reason for their employment.
In a sense, if the mineral and saline nitrous is the beginning of the work, gold and mercury, are in the middle and the end, because mercury affects the transmute.

That, Sir, the whole truth about the "Magisterium Hermetic" I wish you to do in all sincerity.

G. PERARD

Ghislain
10-09-2010, 12:05 PM
This is a somewhat understandable translation of the text that was posted by teofrast40 (translated by Google translator):


It's possible to understand what's being said, and to make the process out. However, I would like to know if a better translation of this exists? Maybe somebody can clean this one up. I would like to clean it up myself, but I don't have time!


A translation of "HERMES UNVEILED by CYLIANI" by Google translator:


Last one:

Is that too clean?

;) JK

Ghislain

Aleilius
10-09-2010, 01:05 PM
Is that too clean?

;) JK

Ghislain
Ah, not sure I understand the joke?

teofrast40
12-31-2010, 03:49 PM
hallo,
I just finished reading the works of Christophorus Parisiensis in vol. VI of the Theatrum Chemicum, and I must say that I did not find any clue that would put it in relation with Cyliani, les recreations or Des Hermes. so Weidenfield (if you're still here) why did you make this connection?
Christophorus leans heavily on Lulle. All of his work is intended as a clarification of the works of the latter.
with humility
t

oratius
01-07-2011, 10:14 AM
... I also think that Kirchweger is a little to much spagyrical in his approach in the first two parts of the Aurea Catena Homeri, but it changes, seemingly, a little in the third part, which is more alchemical, but I don't think we have the same kind of work like in ICH, Cyliani and Les Recreations.

Where can one find this third part (either in English or in French)? I have found it in German... which I do not speak...

Thank you,

:-)

Oratius

Salazius
01-08-2011, 06:28 PM
Oratius, It is not translated in english or french to my knowledge.

S.H.D

teofrast40
02-25-2011, 12:59 AM
hallo,
let me humbly suggest you another text that is without doubt in a very strict relation with les recreations hermetiques, cyliani and des hermes trismegist.
it's a short treatise of John Palmer, alias Zadkiel the alchemist (1807-1837) on the philosophers' stone that can be found inside this book:
http://books.google.se/books?id=eIt9CpkHlSQC&dq=the%20familiar%20astrologer&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
the familiar astrologer, by raphael (a sort of almanac for armchair esoterists)

page 490 first part, page 632 second part

on "The theosophical enlightenment"
by Joscelyn Godwin
http://books.google.it/books?id=Wbzy7A4Zo3MC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&ots=dsIP_FNxFV&dq=John+Palmer+Zadkiel
it is said that this john palmer studied to the Institut de France with Nicolas Vaquelin (the owner of the manuscript where les recreations appear), Baron Thenard, Guy Lussac, Dumas and to the Sorbonne.
the proceeding is exactly the same we find in the other texts (only the "humid way" that draws the sulphur from the earth left behind from the eagles, not the "dry way" that takes the sulphur from gold).
the only difference is that it tell us to make the work in a box, and put a nightlamp under the dish to keep the matter warm.
the matter has to be dug in the earth from a hole at a man's leg depth (where else did I read that??), not so far from the clay of les recreations.
and the magnet has often the form of a cross, and must be looked for in "in a mine of thirty years standing" (any hypotesis of explaination of this would be much appreciated).
for your pleasure (comments are very welcome).
with humility
t

Andro
02-25-2011, 12:10 PM
IMO, this lineage describes the work consisting in the interplay between 'Number One' and 'Number Two'.

Given what they are commonly associated with, 'No.1' and 'No.2' may be interpreted to particular domains, such as Urine (Golden Water/Shower) and Dung/Feces ('between two mountains', 'rejected by the builders', etc...)

But, the Universal (which is the root of the process described by this lineage) refers to the 'Dew of Heaven' as No.1 (neither readily available nor possible to 'manufacture') and to the 'Fatness of the Earth' as No.2.

The 'Dew of Heaven' becoming our 'Golden Water' or 'Philosophical Urine' is described by Urbigerus as "Diana's undetermined Tears, when Apollo has appeared". This is marked by the change in color.

As for 'Number Two': From my perspective so far, and also (IMO) in line with Urbigerus, it is optional.
_____________________________________________


John Palmer, alias Zadkiel the alchemist (1807-1837) [.............] "in a mine of thirty years standing"

:D :D :D
___________________

teofrast40
02-26-2011, 03:31 AM
hi androgynus,
thank for your commentary.
you mean that palmer when writing this line was making a profetic affirmation on the age of his death? a quite ardite hypotesis, but who knows.
as when he wrote this he was younger than 30. i desume this from the fact that Godwin says that he became successor of raphael in the edition of the familiar astrologer after his death, while this work of palmer has a prefaction from raphael in person.
with humility
t

Andro
02-26-2011, 05:03 AM
You mean that Palmer when writing this line was making a profetic affirmation on the age of his death?

No, I don't think he was making a prophetic affirmation. It's just that things can turn ironic sometimes...

But, like you said... Who knows?

'Mine of 30 years standing' remains (for me) open to interpretation...

teofrast40
02-27-2011, 05:39 PM
'Mine of 30 years standing' remains (for me) open to interpretation...

same thing down here..
at the moment, I dare two hypotesis:
1) mine of 30 years standing (by itself), something like an abandoned mine
2) mine of 30 years standing (on his feets), an adult human being, this could resonate with the hints on der warer alter naturweg about the animal source of (one of) the subject(s) of the work..

just opinions..

cheers
t

Illen A. Cluf
02-27-2011, 07:47 PM
the matter has to be dug in the earth from a hole at a man's leg depth (where else did I read that??), not so far from the clay of les recreations.
and the magnet has often the form of a cross, and must be looked for in "in a mine of thirty years standing" (any hypotesis of explaination of this would be much appreciated).
for your pleasure (comments are very welcome).

In my humble opinion, what he is saying seems to be quite straighforward - that the magnet is of the same genus as what can be found in a hole dug to the depth of a man's leg, but that more specifically, it can be found in the same type of form, but in a mine that has been used for at least 30 years. I don't think that anybody has ever revealed it more openly than that.

teofrast40
02-27-2011, 10:54 PM
hi Illen,
so for you the magnet would be clay taken from a "fertile" mine?
I must confess I didn't think about this interpretation..
and what about the cross shape then?
cheers
t

Illen A. Cluf
02-27-2011, 11:24 PM
hi Illen,
so for you the magnet would be clay taken from a "fertile" mine?
I must confess I didn't think about this interpretation..
and what about the cross shape then?
cheers
t

Not exactly. Remember that the substance below the surface only 'represents' in a hermetic way what is in the mine. As for the cross, remember also that there are two different meanings for the word "cross" (for example, what symbol do you use when you "cross" out a letter in a handwritten text?). Read in Dwellings what Fulcanelli has to say about the Greek cross (Khi). Also, look up the symbol for the 'active principle'.

teofrast40
02-28-2011, 02:39 PM
hi Illen,
your reference to Fulcanelli (whose saying on the letter chi I remember well) make me think that you suggest the matter to be the one that shares its symbol with the earth. if by this you mean vulgar stibium, I must humbly desagree. the references of the Scholia, whose relation with this text is undeniable, to clay and particularly to its colours, make me reject the aforesaid subject. of course this is just an human opinion, not being supported by the light of nature. if I misunderstood you, please excuse me.
with humility
t

Andro
02-28-2011, 03:04 PM
So for you the magnet would be clay taken from a "fertile" mine?
I must confess I didn't think about this interpretation..
and what about the cross shape then?

Even in this kind of particular mine, the cross is present. Just look carefully. It is that mysterious 'Ram's Bone', clearly marked by something closely resembling a sort of cross.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/LambCross.jpg


A mine that has been used for at least 30 years.

Which could be in agreement with the accepted age when the possibility of attaining philosophical wisdom becomes more accessible (after 40). :)


Also, look up the symbol for the 'active principle'.

This would likely be the symbol of Sulfur - a triangle connected to a cross. But maybe you mean something else...

Illen A. Cluf
02-28-2011, 10:39 PM
hi Illen,
your reference to Fulcanelli (whose saying on the letter chi I remember well) make me think that you suggest the matter to be the one that shares its symbol with the earth. if by this you mean vulgar stibium, I must humbly desagree. the references of the Scholia, whose relation with this text is undeniable, to clay and particularly to its colours, make me reject the aforesaid subject. of course this is just an human opinion, not being supported by the light of nature. if I misunderstood you, please excuse me.
with humility
t

Hi "t",

By no means did I mean to suggest that stibium was to be used. Many modern alchemists do indeed promote (or hint at) the use of stibnite, but based on my research, stibnite/antimony is only used as a hermetic label for something else which has some similar "philosophical" properties. I am totally convinced that stibnite/antimony is NOT used in the process that leads to the Stone. Fulcanelli even spends 2 or 3 pages in his Dwellings, stressing this point. I have even expressed this view in another message that I recently wrote in the Practical Alchemy thread. I'm quite familiar with the "Hermetic Recreations Followed by Scholium" treatise and have high regard for it. It does indeed suggest the use of clay, but I think that we were discussing the other paper "The Philosophers Stone", which also hints at a type of clay.

Illen A. Cluf
02-28-2011, 10:47 PM
Which could be in agreement with the accepted age when the possibility of attaining philosophical wisdom becomes more accessible (after 40). :)

"As above, so below" Therefore, it likely refers to both. I believe that the physical alchemical process relates closely to the internal, spiritual process.


This would likely be the symbol of Sulfur - a triangle connected to a cross. But maybe you mean something else...

Yes, Sulfur is the symbol of the active principle. The ancients often gave numerous different symbols for any one substance, depenidng on the meaning they were trying to convey. One of the symbols for Sulfur is a circle with a vertical cross in it.

Jerry
03-01-2011, 02:54 PM
It does indeed suggest the use of clay, but I think that we were discussing the other paper "The Philosophers Stone", which also hints at a type of clay.
And this is the true Matter or Subject of the Philosophers, and mark how that it agreeth with that I said before: First, that it is one thing, which yet containeth three; Secondly, that it is a vile thing, and yet is not so, for it is a lump of Clay; Thirdly, that it is so vile and common that Workmen throw it out of their Mines, and tread on it, as a thing of no value: I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries.- Privy Seal of Secrets.

Aleilius
03-01-2011, 06:59 PM
And this is the true Matter or Subject of the Philosophers, and mark how that it agreeth with that I said before: First, that it is one thing, which yet containeth three; Secondly, that it is a vile thing, and yet is not so, for it is a lump of Clay; Thirdly, that it is so vile and common that Workmen throw it out of their Mines, and tread on it, as a thing of no value: I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries.- Privy Seal of Secrets.

Yeah, I've heard this numerous times. Using the clay from a gold mine. Also, red clay, iron oxide rich clay, signifies to prospectors that gold should be close by.

Illen A. Cluf
03-01-2011, 07:35 PM
And this is the true Matter or Subject of the Philosophers, and mark how that it agreeth with that I said before: First, that it is one thing, which yet containeth three; Secondly, that it is a vile thing, and yet is not so, for it is a lump of Clay; Thirdly, that it is so vile and common that Workmen throw it out of their Mines, and tread on it, as a thing of no value: I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries.- Privy Seal of Secrets.

Are you aware of any other works that specifically suggest clay as the First Matter (other than Hermetic Recreations, The Philoosphers Stone and the Privy Seat of Secrets)?

teofrast40
03-01-2011, 09:31 PM
hi Illen,
Cyliani too mentions clay.
then there's also the opus ex virginea terra inside Digby's Chemical Secrets, but I wouldn't dare to compare it with our textes.
regarding the mine of 30 years standing, I red in more than one alchemical treatise that when expert miners find an exhausted mine, they close it and get back (or maybe their sons) after some years to find it enriched again.
at the moment I'm reading a (quite boring) treatise of Gherard Dorn - a Paracelse's apologist- and he too mentions this topos. Guess what's the time he says that the miner should wait before reopening the mine? yep, that's 30 years.

thanks Aleilius for this citation, I'll head soon to Aurifontina Chemica.

Andro
03-01-2011, 09:53 PM
Quoth Hyle & Cohyle:


Unwise (or: stupid, foolish) people, yes, those whom the world considers great Doctors, say and give out as truth that God made man from a clot of loam or clay, or from the dust of the earth, which is wrong.
It was no such matter, but a Quintessential matter. Earth it is named, but it is no earth.

Illen A. Cluf
03-01-2011, 10:09 PM
hi Illen,
Cyliani too mentions clay.
then there's also the opus ex virginea terra inside Digby's Chemical Secrets, but I wouldn't dare to compare it with our textes.
regarding the mine of 30 years standing, I red in more than one alchemical treatise that when expert miners find an exhausted mine, they close it and get back (or maybe their sons) after some years to find it enriched again.
at the moment I'm reading a (quite boring) treatise of Gherard Dorn - a Paracelse's apologist- and he too mentions this topos. Guess what's the time he says that the miner should wait before reopening the mine? yep, that's 30 years.

thanks Aleilius for this citation, I'll head soon to Aurifontina Chemica.

Thanks for the information, teofrast. I don't recall Cyliani mentioning clay. Can you find the quote that mentions it?

Also, doesn't the Opus Magnum via Virginea Terra mention black earth rather than clay?

That Gherard Dorn treatise, even if boring, does sound like it might have some relevant information in it. Obvioulsy, all these authors mentioning the 30 year old mines, must have either had a common source, or were impressed by the approaches used by some of these authors. I seem to recall reading elsewhere about these 30-year old mines, especially form Hungary. I wish I could remember where.

Illen A. Cluf
03-01-2011, 10:12 PM
Quoth Hyle & Cohyle:

Interesting quote, Androgynous. Perhaps he was referring to the Astral Spirit itself, rather than the magnet which attracts it.

teofrast40
03-01-2011, 10:43 PM
hi Andro,
well, if you put it like this, I remembered where else did I read of digging a hole at one's kee depth.
It's in Cosmopolite's (no less) treatise on sulphur - the last part, you won't find it on adam mclean's site.


Then he (our alchemist) convinced himself that to acquire this salt of verginity he woud have dig to below the foundation of roots, in a place of rich soil, to extract a virgin earth that had not yet been impregnated, establishing badly the adage that to obtain the living water of salt niter one must dig a hole deep to the knees, and that fantasy he was not content just to pursue by his work, but made it also public with a speech that he made print: there he claimed that this was the true thought of the philosophers. He ostinated so strongly in this immaginary and pointless opinion that he spent all his property, so that he saw himself reduced in poverty, full of pain and discomfort.

Jerry
03-01-2011, 10:51 PM
Are you aware of any other works that specifically suggest clay as the First Matter (other than Hermetic Recreations, The Philoosphers Stone and the Privy Seat of Secrets)?

I don't think any treatise worth its salt would state that the First Matter is anything but water, but is no water.

There is a difference between the First Matter and the Matter to work upon. A Matter to work upon could be clay or any other numerous substances that are suggested in the literature.

Typical of misleading statements would be the one in the Privy Seal of Secrets, "I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries. where "it" appears to refer to clay but actually itsnot.

Andro
03-01-2011, 10:55 PM
I don't think any treatise worth its salt would state that the First Matter is anything but water, but is no water.
There is a difference between the First Matter and the Matter to work upon. A Matter to work upon could be clay or any other numerous substances that are suggested in the literature.
Typical of misleading statements would be the one in the Privy Seal of Secrets, "I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries, where "it" appears to refer to clay but actually it's not.

Excellent points!

Aleilius
03-01-2011, 11:28 PM
I don't think any treatise worth its salt would state that the First Matter is anything but water, but is no water.
This goes all the way back to the Greek philosophers. I will make a thread on it.

teofrast40
03-02-2011, 12:04 AM
Illen,
I'm sorry, I didn't remember correctly.
Cyliani doesn't mention explicitly clay.
there's only this affirmation in the preface (obviously open to any interpretation)


I must add that the matter proper to the work is that which served to form the body of primitive man. It is to be found everywhere and in varied forms. Its origin is both divine and terrestrial, equally so the fire of the stone.

Illen A. Cluf
03-02-2011, 12:36 AM
I don't think any treatise worth its salt would state that the First Matter is anything but water, but is no water.

There is a difference between the First Matter and the Matter to work upon

My apologies - you are correct. I meant to say "the true Matter or Subject of the Philosophers".

Illen A. Cluf
03-02-2011, 12:38 AM
Illen,
I'm sorry, I didn't remember correctly.
Cyliani doesn't mention explicitly clay.
there's only this affirmation in the preface (obviously open to any interpretation)

Thanks, teofrast. The quote does seem to imply clay imbued with the astral spirit, so I see how you remembered it that way.

Aleilius
03-02-2011, 02:26 AM
Thanks, teofrast. The quote does seem to imply clay imbued with the astral spirit, so I see how you remembered it that way.
When the demiurge crafted humans from "clay/red earth" they lacked animation. It was required that they be given the same spirit/soul-stuff that the archons themselves were made from. The demiurge could not make it, or copy it.

Something like that supposedly.

Jerry
03-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Thanks, teofrast. The quote does seem to imply clay imbued with the astral spirit, so I see how you remembered it that way.
Do you think that the astral spirit is similar to the dry water that doesn't wet the hands?

Aleilius
03-02-2011, 07:26 PM
Do you think that the astral spirit is similar to the dry water that doesn't wet the hands?

That's a pretty loaded question. Dry water would signify something that isn't water (since all water is wet). This is a contradiction by itself. I've never been able to figure out this little "riddle." Water is not the correct term, and is misleading I believe.

Dry liquid that does not wet the hands. Well, there you go, that's quicksilver. Oh? No? Well then.

The reason quicksilver does not wet the hands is because of the bonding properties. The only way I could possibly imagine that dry water might actually exist is if it's some kind of exotic matter, and you've able to play with the bonding ability of the matter. You'd have the science community go crazy if you were to obtain even a small sample of this kind of "dry water."

Jerry
03-02-2011, 07:43 PM
The only way I could possibly imagine that dry water might actually exist is if it's some kind of exotic matter, and you've able to play with the bonding ability of the matter. You'd have the science community go crazy if you were to obtain even a small sample of this kind of "dry water."

I've seen roads paved with it. I"m quite sure it is the same in other countries.

Aleilius
03-02-2011, 07:56 PM
I've seen roads paved with it. I"m quite sure it is the same in other countries.

I see then. Paving roads with water? That's nonsense. That's called rain. Paving roads with dry water? That's even more nonsense. If you're referring to asphalt, then again, that's not water. That's something else entirely.

Water is dihydrogen monoxide, and nothing else (well possibly heavy water, but that's deuterium oxide).

This whole thing is deceptive.

Jerry
03-02-2011, 08:11 PM
I see then. Paving roads with water? That's nonsense.

Keep working on the problem. I'm sure you will come up with the answer (eventually).

Illen A. Cluf
03-02-2011, 08:12 PM
Do you think that the astral spirit is similar to the dry water that doesn't wet the hands?

No, of course not! If this is what you beleive, then my understanding is significantly different than yours. I'll be quite open - here's my understanding:

To begin with, the 'Magnesia', 'Magnet', or whatever it may be called, the intermediary between the heavens and the earth, feeds on the 'astral spirit' (or 'celestial dew'), by attracting it in the same way that a real magnet would attract iron. The 'astral spirit' is invisible, and immaterial, unlike the "water which does not wet the hands" (a crystallized salt).

Using the Secret Fire of the Sages on the prepared matter (i.e. "philosophical gold" and "common" [not vulgar] mercury, or "first mercury"), the matter is calcined, dissolved, and sublimed, until it turns into a "water that does not wet the hands", or as the Cosmopolite calls it, a "dry water". It is also called our "second mercury" or "next matter of the work". Trevisan called it a "permanent water". it is then used for the subsequent steps of the process.

With great interest, I would like to hear your explanation (in similar detail) of why you think that the "astral spirit" and the "water that does not wet the hands" are similar.

Albion
03-02-2011, 08:21 PM
I've seen roads paved with it. I"m quite sure it is the same in other countries.

“Water” could, in this instance be used as a generic term which categorically includes semi-viscous liquids. If so:

Pavement -> Asphalt -> Asphaltum/Mineral Pitch -> Shilajit

“Shilajit is a Sanskrit word meaning "exuding from the rocks." It is also spelt "Shilajeet," and "Salajeet(سلاجیت)" in Urdu and is known by various other names, such as Shilajita Mumiyo, mineral pitch or mineral wax in English, black asphaltum, and Asphaltum punjabianum in Latin”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shilajit

Just playing with word associations here.

Jerry
03-03-2011, 12:30 AM
To begin with, the 'Magnesia', 'Magnet', or whatever it may be called, the intermediary between the heavens and the earth, feeds on the 'astral spirit' (or 'celestial dew'), by attracting it in the same way that a real magnet would attract iron. The 'astral spirit' is invisible, and immaterial, unlike the "water which does not wet the hands" (a crystallized salt).

The only thing (at the moment) I disagree with is the "crystallized salt" part. The salt may be be influenced by the astral spirit to cause it to liquefy but that is only because alchemists burn with water (the first mercury or celestial dew, the Secret Fire). The first mercury is invisible and immaterial, which is called dry water because it makes some things liquid after it has been turned into wine. The second mercury is visible but immaterial and also could be considered dry water because sometimes it looks like water, but is salso called an oyl . The terms and definitions vary somewhat from treatise to treatise depending on how the author presents the information, the method used, and how the wine is prepared, and the moon.

Jerry
03-03-2011, 12:33 AM
“Water” could, in this instance be used as a generic term which categorically includes semi-viscous liquids. If so:

Pavement -> Asphalt -> Asphaltum/Mineral Pitch -> Shilajit
My statement was relative to the Privy Seal of Secrets where it states, "I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries". When the author of the Seal of Secrets examines it, he finds a lump of clay, because this what is thrown out the mines. I have found it, as you may have, around asphalt pavement. I also have many roads which are not paved
with asphalt and when I make an examination, it is gravel.

Illen A. Cluf
03-03-2011, 03:54 AM
The only thing (at the moment) I disagree with is the "crystallized salt" part. The salt may be be influenced by the astral spirit to cause it to liquefy but that is only because alchemists burn with water (the first mercury or celestial dew, the Secret Fire). The first mercury is invisible and immaterial, which is called dry water because it makes some things liquid after it has been turned into wine. The second mercury is visible but immaterial and also could be considered dry water because sometimes it looks like water, but is salso called an oyl . The terms and definitions vary somewhat from treatise to treatise depending on how the author presents the information, the method used, and how the wine is prepared, and the moon.

Thanks for your explanation, Jerry. I think there are several details that we do not agree on:

1. I do not agree that the celestial dew is the first mercury;
2. I do not agree that the Secret Fire is the first mercury;
3. I do not agree that the first mercury is invisible and immaterial;
4. I do not agree that the first mercury is the dry water - I suggest that it is the second mercury;
5. I do not agree that the second mercury is immaterial;
6. I do agree that the terms and definitions vary from treatise to treatise, but that the general process is the same - in the more reliable treatises. By reliable I mean for example Geber, Paracelsus, Flamel, Philalethes, Sendivogius, Cyliani.

Jerry
03-04-2011, 12:51 AM
1. I do not agree that the celestial dew is the first mercury;
2. I do not agree that the Secret Fire is the first mercury;
3. I do not agree that the first mercury is invisible and immaterial;
4. I do not agree that the first mercury is the dry water - I suggest that it is the second mercury;
5. I do not agree that the second mercury is immaterial;

"Q.* What is the true and the first matter of all metals?
A.* The first matter, properly so called, is dual in its essence, or is in itself of a twofold nature; one, nevertheless, cannot create a metal without the concurrence of the other. The first and the palmary essence is an aerial humidity, blended with a warm air, in the form of a fatty water, which adheres to all substances indiscriminately, whether they are pure or impure.
*
Q.* How has this humidity been named by Philosophers?
A.* Mercury. " - Alchemical Catechism, Paracelsus.

"Now, says Bernard Trevisan, when philosophers speak of a first matter they did not mean this vapor, but the second matter which is an unctuous water which to us is the first, because we never find the former." Art of Distillation, Book VI, John French.

The First Matter is the Mercury is the Huimidity (How else could you turn water into wine?) is the Dry Water is the King's Water (The Queen is the Moon).


6. I do agree that the terms and definitions vary from treatise to treatise, but that the general process is the same - in the more reliable treatises. By reliable I mean for example Geber, Paracelsus, Flamel, Philalethes, Sendivogius, Cyliani.

I do not agree the general process is the same. The results maybe similar and based on similar cause and effect relationships. This appears to be one of the problems. From what I gathered from your post concerning the Mercury and Philosophical Gold, you seem to have picked up on the Short Way. There is also a Dry Way and a Wet Way. There is also probably This Way and That Way. It does not appear that the terms used in one path have the same meaning in another path. What is considered Vitriol in one path is not the Vitriol of another, the Magnet of one is not the Magnet of another, What is called Dew in one treatise has no relationship to the Dew of another if the path is different, etc.

A suggestion would be to bundle various Paths into categories based on descrption of physical changes, such as colour.

Fulcanelli hints of such observed changes but then scoffs at them:

"But for this, as for many other things, we must know how to put ourselves on guard against excess imagination; the too enthusiastic author of The Key to the Great Work sees marvels even in the spirituous dissolution of the stone: "Burning golden sparks", says the writer, "must come out of it and an infinity of colors must appear in the vase".

Here I would assume that the "vase" is the one with the round bottom (humour). Colours do appear and golden sparks do emanate.

"It is going a little too far in the description of phenomena which no philosopher points out."

I'm not sure why Fulcanelli would make such a statement since the golden sparks emanate from the six pointed star.

Fulcanelli continues with his admonishments and perhaps rightly so because the Short Way does not appear to make the Universal Panacea.

"Furthermore, he does not acknowledge any limits to the virtues of the Elixir: "Leprosy, gout, paralysis, kidney stone, epilepsy, dropsy could not resist the virtue of this medicine". And as the healing of these reputedly incurable diseases doesn’t seem sufficient to him, he eagerly adds to the list even more admirable properties. "This medicine causes the deaf to hear, the blind to see, the mute to speak, the lame to walk; it can totally renew a man by causing his skin to change, his teeth, fingernails and white hair to fall out, in stead of which now ones will grow, in the color desired". We are now drifting into humor and buffoonery." - Dwellings.

Illen A. Cluf
03-05-2011, 02:11 AM
"Q.* What is the true and the first matter of all metals?
A.* The first matter, properly so called, is dual in its essence, or is in itself of a twofold nature; one, nevertheless, cannot create a metal without the concurrence of the other. The first and the palmary essence is an aerial humidity, blended with a warm air, in the form of a fatty water, which adheres to all substances indiscriminately, whether they are pure or impure.
*
Q.* How has this humidity been named by Philosophers?
A.* Mercury. " - Alchemical Catechism, Paracelsus.


Very impressive summary, Jerry! This is the type of dialogue that should be encouraged.

However, I suggest that you might have fallen into the same trap that almost all alchemical researchers fall into – through no fault of their own since the authors have deliberately devised it that way. There are only a small handful of authors who have exposed the trap, and those that do, provide barely more than a hint.

Of all the authors who do provide a hint, the clearest and most open is Fulcanelli. That is why, in this explanation, I will suffice to provide quotes only from his books.

To back up my viewpoint then, Fulcanelli states quite clearly:

“This product, allegorically expressed by an angel or by a man --- the attribute of the evangelist St Matthew --- is none other than the Mercury of the Philosophers, double in nature and quality, partly fixed and material, partly volatile and spiritual, which suffices to begin, achieve and multiply the work. It is the unique and only matter that we need, without having to worry about finding any other; but we must know, so as not to err, that authors generally begin their treatises with this mercury and how to acquire it.”

In this quote alone, Fulcanelli has exactly described what you called “the first matter of all metals”. It is double in nature” (you wrote: “dual in its essence”; “of a twofold nature”) and is called the “Mercury” of the Philosophers (You wrote: “Q. How has this humidity been named by the Philosophers? A. Mercury”). It is the “unique and only matter that we need” (you wrote: “the first matter”). I will show later that Fulcanelli also directly called this the “First Matter”. It is “partly volatile and spiritual” (you wrote: “the primary essence is an aerial humidity”).

Thus you have described, not the secret initial preparation, but the product of that preparation, with which almost all treatises begin, as Fulcanelli clearly states.

Let me continue by providing a summary of the key points of your perspective:

1. The first matter of all metals is dual in essence;
2. The first essence of the first matter is an “aerlial humidity blended with warm air, in the form of a filthy water”.
3. The philosophers call this first of two essences (i.e. the humidity) Mercury.

In other words, in you view, the First Matter of all metals is of a dual nature (Rebis) and the humid part of that nature is called Mercury.

If that one quote is not enough, there are numerous other quotes from Fulcanelli’s Dwellings that support that what you are describing is the First Mercury – and NOT the astral spirit. Also there are numerous quotes suggesting that this First Mercury is already a PREPARED MATTER, and which almost all treatises BEGIN with, pretending that it is the very first matter that one begins to work on. They do this to deliberately confuse the student.

I don’t wish to go into this too deeply because it’s one of the best-kept secrets, and I feel that I have already unlocked the first lock of this door enough to help save years of additional reading and study. But I will provide a few additional quotes (from “Dwellings”) to help illustrate my point even further and provide additional insights (please first re-read what I wrote about this earlier).

“However, in our opinion, the best name that authors have given to their mercury seems to be Spirit of magnesia. For they call magnesia (Greek --- magnes, magnet) the coarse feminine matter which attracts by an occult virtue the spirit enclosed beneath the hard shell of the steel of the sages. The latter, penetrating like a burning flame into the body of the passive nature, burns, consumes its heterogeneous parts, drives away the arsenical (leprous) sulphur, and animates the pure mercury it contains and which appears in the conventional form of a liquor both humid and igneous --- the fire water of the Ancients --- which we call Spirit of Magnesia and universal solvent.”

“To sum it up, all alkahest recipes proposed by authors who above all aim at the liquid form attributed to the universal solvent are useless, if not false, and only good for spagyrics. Our first matter is solid; the mercury which it provides always presents itself as saline in appearance and with a hard consistency. And this metallic salt, as Bernard Trevisan quite rightly said, is extracted from the Magnesia ‘by the reiterated destruction of the latter, by dissolving and by sublimating’.”

“This agent was once upon a time called among Adepts by the name of magnet or the attractive. The body charged with this magnet was also called Magnesia, and it is it, this body, that served as an intermediary between the sky and the earth, feeding on astral influences or celestial dynamism which it transmitted to the passive substance, by attracting them in the manner of a true magnet.”

This is only a very small start. If interested in further relevant quotes, I can continue in a subsequent message.

Illen A. Cluf
03-05-2011, 02:39 AM
From what I gathered from your post concerning the Mercury and Philosophical Gold, you seem to have picked up on the Short Way. There is also a Dry Way and a Wet Way. There is also probably This Way and That Way. It does not appear that the terms used in one path have the same meaning in another path.

Not exactly. Everyone likes to think that the Dry Way and the Wet Way are two entirely different paths. I disagree. I think that both the Dry Way and the Wet way begin in the exact same way. They only become different paths BEGINNING WITH the animation of the initial (first) mercury.

Let me once again quote Fulcanelli:

“The two paths of the Work require two different manners of undertaking the animation of the initial mercury. The first belongs to the brief way and requires only one technique by which the fixed is gradually dampened --- because any dry matter avidly drinks its own humidity --- until the repeated affusion of the volatile on the body causes the compound to swell and turn into a pasty or syrupy mass, as the case may be. The second method consists on digesting the totality of the sulphur in three or four times its weight in water, decanting the resulting solution, then drying up the residue and reiterating the operation with a proportional quantity of fresh mercury. When the dissolution is complete, the feces, if any, are separated and the collected liquors are subjected to a slow distillation in a bath. Thus the superfluous humidity is released, leaving the mercury at the required consistency without any loss of its qualities, and ready to undergo hermetic coction.”

Hellin Hermetist
03-05-2011, 06:56 PM
“However, in our opinion, the best name that authors have given to their mercury seems to be Spirit of magnesia. For they call magnesia (Greek --- magnes, magnet) the coarse feminine matter which attracts by an occult virtue the spirit enclosed beneath the hard shell of the steel of the sages. The latter, penetrating like a burning flame into the body of the passive nature, burns, consumes its heterogeneous parts, drives away the arsenical (leprous) sulphur, and animates the pure mercury it contains and which appears in the conventional form of a liquor both humid and igneous --- the fire water of the Ancients --- which we call Spirit of Magnesia and universal solvent.”



Here he says that the first mercury/spirit of Magnesia/universal solvent is a liquor or a fiery liquor




“To sum it up, all alkahest recipes proposed by authors who above all aim at the liquid form attributed to the universal solvent are useless, if not false, and only good for spagyrics. Our first matter is solid; the mercury which it provides always presents itself as saline in appearance and with a hard consistency. And this metallic salt, as Bernard Trevisan quite rightly said, is extracted from the Magnesia ‘by the reiterated destruction of the latter, by dissolving and by sublimating’.”



Here he says that the same substance is a salt?

Is that a riddle or what?

Illen A. Cluf
03-05-2011, 07:52 PM
Here he says that the first mercury/spirit of Magnesia/universal solvent is a liquor or a fiery liquor
Here he says that the same substance is a salt? Is that a riddle or what?

It depends on how you define "riddle". What can be like water, yet feel dry to the touch?

Jerry
03-05-2011, 08:42 PM
Let me once again quote Fulcanelli:

“The two paths of the Work require two different manners of undertaking the animation of the initial mercury. The first belongs to the brief way and requires only one technique by which the fixed is gradually dampened --- because any dry matter avidly drinks its own humidity --- until the repeated affusion of the volatile on the body causes the compound to swell and turn into a pasty or syrupy mass, as the case may be. The second method consists on digesting the totality of the sulphur in three or four times its weight in water, decanting the resulting solution, then drying up the residue and reiterating the operation with a proportional quantity of fresh mercury. When the dissolution is complete, the feces, if any, are separated and the collected liquors are subjected to a slow distillation in a bath. Thus the superfluous humidity is released, leaving the mercury at the required consistency without any loss of its qualities, and ready to undergo hermetic coction.”

Without splitting hairs let’s just settle on two distinct ways. We will follow the Rules of Fulcanelli, although some persons do not consider him to be an Adept. There are only two ways, the Brief/Short Way and the long Wet/Dry Way.

Let’s see what Fulcanelli says about this Short Way:

“We will answer this by saying that to reveal an experiment of this sort would be to give the secret of the short way and that we have not received from God nor from our brothers the authorization to uncover such a mystery.”

It might be safe to say that revelation of this secret would be upsetting to the RCC Corp. Fulcanelli is already on thin ice with this six pointed star as it is the Star of David which is the fire water from which the wine is made. The vulgar try to extract it from glasses of Mogan David.

Then he tries to down play the color changes. I only repeat this because it is important and not of internal error: "Burning golden sparks", says the writer, "must come out of it and infinity of colors must appear in the vase".

These golden sparks can be found in many drawings and woodcuts and is also a well known symbol used in the RCC Corp., and others. The colors are those of the Easter Eggs which some consider being of “pagan” origin. I don’t think Fulcanelli has touched upon this. If you are unsure of what the egg is, I suggest you get some paper and pencil and look in the mirror and draw the outline of your head. Expose the egg to a hot place (pyramid, pyr = fire) and you have your answer. Marginal Note: Process not to be taken literally.

Since Fulcanelli is not allowed to reveal the secret, it is interesting how many tips and hints he does provide. It may also be of value to collect all those little tidbits of information concerning this path. It may also be valuable to see what authors and works Fulcanelli does not mention that would pertain to this path. He does make note of Thomas Vaughan but does not address the Lumen de Lumine. Hmm….

Here we have these classical double speak:

“Indeed, the philosophical gold is not the stone, and Philalethes carefully warns the student that it is only its first matter. And since this sulfur principle, according to the same author, requires an uninterrupted work of approximately 150 days, it is logical and particularly humane to think that such an apparently mediocre result could not satisfy the artist who anticipated reaching the Elixir in one bound, as it can happen in the short way.” All quotes from Dwellings.

The philosophical gold must be the mercury since it is also the first matter. It is called gold because that is the symbol that appears. This symbol can also be seen in many temples of India which is not to be confused with the Mountains of India which is a different place. The terms which are used are not to be understood literally. They represent concepts not actual substances.

Hellin Hermetist
03-05-2011, 09:29 PM
It depends on how you define "riddle". What can be like water, yet feel dry to the touch?

I don't know. A molten metal maybe. In any case, a metallic salt doesn't seem like water at all. These sentences of the work of Fulcanelli contradict each other.

I am not sure about that, but I believe that some other French authors (Cyliani and the anonymous author of The Receation Hermetique) have a different opinion and say that we need the astral spirit (obviously a liquid matter) and the matter which contain the two metallic natures. After the interaction (imbibition) of the astral spirit to the matter, we extract a number of different salts to which the authors give the name mercury. In any case, the liquid to which Cyliani and the anonymous author gives the name of astral spirit seems to be the universal solvent/common mercury of Fulcanelli.

Another interesting point. The author of The Recreation Hermetiques affirms that we need a special apparatus to collect the astral spirit and that we can collect it only certain times of the year, in the spring or at the autumn and under a full moon. He also teaches that we have to set our apparatus to the direction of the north. I thing that Green Lion of the forum has accomplished that procedure.
Fulcanelli gives a whole different procedure which includes the violent interaction and destruction of two different matters. In many points of his work he says that the first work is really dangerous. May somebody can shed some light at that matters.

Hellin Hermetist
03-05-2011, 09:37 PM
Not exactly. Everyone likes to think that the Dry Way and the Wet Way are two entirely different paths. I disagree. I think that both the Dry Way and the Wet way begin in the exact same way. They only become different paths BEGINNING WITH the animation of the initial (first) mercury.

Let me once again quote Fulcanelli:

“The two paths of the Work require two different manners of undertaking the animation of the initial mercury. The first belongs to the brief way and requires only one technique by which the fixed is gradually dampened --- because any dry matter avidly drinks its own humidity --- until the repeated affusion of the volatile on the body causes the compound to swell and turn into a pasty or syrupy mass, as the case may be. The second method consists on digesting the totality of the sulphur in three or four times its weight in water, decanting the resulting solution, then drying up the residue and reiterating the operation with a proportional quantity of fresh mercury. When the dissolution is complete, the feces, if any, are separated and the collected liquors are subjected to a slow distillation in a bath. Thus the superfluous humidity is released, leaving the mercury at the required consistency without any loss of its qualities, and ready to undergo hermetic coction.”

Yes, and in another point he says that the wet path requires 12 to 18 months, when the dry path can be completed to a maximum of 7 or 9 days (I don't remember the exact number). In another point he says that the dry path requires a constant temp of 1000 - 1200 C.
See also what Fulcanelli mentions at the Mystery of the Cathedrals about the four degrees of fire for the final coction of the rebis and what he says at the chapter of Dampierre (Dwellings) about the same subject. At the end Fulcanelli, despite his great literally ability, doesn't seem so trustworthy.

Illen A. Cluf
03-06-2011, 01:01 AM
Without splitting hairs let’s just settle on two distinct ways.

OK, but before we do so, there is a most important reason why I made the distinction that they BOTH start the same way. BOTH start with the INITIAL PREPARATION, which is only mentioned by hint in a very few sources (including sources other than Fulcanelli). Only then do they deviate.

Why is this Initial Preparation so important? Because it constitutes what is alchemical about the entire operation. Everything afterwards is mostly just pure chemistry. Thus the portion that is ‘alchemical’ is the same in both approaches. Only the subsequent chemistry differs. Thus, in the many recipes reported in the numerous treatises, they generally work exactly as indicated BUT ONLY assuming that one first starts with the PREPARED MATTER. In fact, most treatises begin at this point, when the matter has already been prepared. Then there is only one single matter to use for the rest of the operation. This to me is vitaly important, and thus I can’t “just settle” so easily on two distinct ways. There is only ONE DISTINCT ALCHEMICAL WAY. This simple settlement misses the most important part of alchemy.

However, now that we have carelessly tossed the alchemy part away, let us proceed :-)


The vulgar try to extract it from glasses of Mogan David.

Or from urine, vinegar, acetates, etc.


These golden sparks can be found in many drawings and woodcuts and is also a well known symbol used in the RCC Corp., and others.

And they play a very important role.He calls it “internal fire”, or “latent light”. It is more concerntrated in iron than in any other metal. This latent light modifies the passive subject, which is then called the fiery and prolific “green lion”. It floats like an oil on the surface during the sublimations. There are numerous parallels between alchemical and religious symbology, because any process that involves the animating or life principle in matter must deal with the same invisible spiritual entities. Both religion and alchemy is concerned with life, decomposition, death and reincrudation/resurrection, how ‘spirit’ interacts with matter, and how perfection may be attained.


Since Fulcanelli is not allowed to reveal the secret, it is interesting how many tips and hints he does provide. It may also be of value to collect all those little tidbits of information concerning this path.

He does provide quite a number of hints, but for the average student, it is often very difficult to determine when he is talking about the long way (humid way) and when he is talking about the short way (dry way). He frequently alternates between the two ways - without any warning.


The philosophical gold must be the mercury since it is also the first matter.

No, based on my own understanding, this is not at all correct. Fulcanelli addresses this concept in some depth in another part of his book (I don’t have that at my fingertips, but I seem to remember that it was in a section dealing with a fascinating discussion of which was more important to the stone – the mercury or the sulfur), as he often does with so many of the seeming contradictions. Although it may appear contradictory at first, it is only so until the next level of understanding is reached – after many additional readings. This is true for so many of the alchemical treatises. There actually are no contradictions – only misunderstandings. That is why they stress the importance of reading again and again (“Ora”). True understanding is only reached when one perceives that there are no more contradictions.

Extreme care (I must stress this as vitally important!) must be taken with the exact extended terminology and the context in which it is used. The terminology can be extremely subtle, leading to apparent contradictions, which are not really contradictions - if extreme care is taken with the subtleties. The subtleties are deliberately inroduced to separate the very careful reader from the more casual reader. “First matter” can have different meanings, depening on how it is referenced. For example, the “first matter” of the work is Magnesia. The “first matter” of the Stone is philosophical gold. There are numerous other such examples which I will leave for others to find on their own.

Illen A. Cluf
03-06-2011, 01:22 AM
In another point he says that the dry path requires a constant temp of 1000 - 1200 C.See also what Fulcanelli mentions at the Mystery of the Cathedrals about the four degrees of fire for the final coction of the rebis and what he says at the chapter of Dampierre (Dwellings) about the same subject. At the end Fulcanelli despite his great literally ability doesn't seem so trustworthy.


In another point he says that the dry path requires a constant temp of 1000 - 1200 C.
See also what Fulcanelli mentions at the Mystery of the Cathedrals about the four degrees of fire for the final coction of the rebis and what he says at the chapter of Dampierre (Dwellings) about the same subject. At the end Fulcanelli despite his great literally ability doesn't seem so trustworthy.

Very good observation, Hellin!

Yes, Fulcanelli talks in the Amiens Chapter of his Mystery of the Cathedrales about the temperature of the foruth degree of fire going to close to 1200 degrees C. (dry path). In the Dampierre Chapter of his Dwellings, Fulcanelli talks about maintaining the same temperature throughout the coction, and that it should be at the temperature of "the incubation of a hen's egg". He does stress that the four degrees of fire are meant to be considered metaphorically. Also, we are not sure which of the two paths he is talking about in this Chapter. Thus the temperature likely differs significantly whether using the dry way of the humid way. In addition, I often felt that Fulcanellli's first book was written much earlier, before he accomplished the making of the Stone, and that it may have included some ideas that didn't quite pan out once he wrote his second book.

I realize that these are not the best of reasons for the discrepancy between the two books (there are others). I personally rely more on the second book than I do the first, for the very reason that I think the first book was written somewhat theoretically, before he actually verified his theories by practice. He may then have realized the error of some of his previous theories. Perhaps someone else has a better explanation for this discrepancy.

rogerc
03-06-2011, 02:11 AM
. At the end Fulcanelli despite his great literally ability doesn't seem so trustworthy.

Amen....Thats the most sense this thread has made since people started quoting Fulcanelli lately..... Hi folks been following this thread and had to chime quickly.....
....instead of being blinded by the literary aspects and allowing our interest to peaked into solving riddles that the writer himself has not solved...why not go back and learn from the more classic authors that spoke more clearly,.... like for instance.... Uraltes Chymisches Werck... this book apparently written, judging from its tone, during the Roman perscution of the Jews would have placed its authorship sometime after the death of Christ, within its contents which absolutley were the basis for Flammel's werk and all the apprentices of his linage which might include elsewise its methods were also imparted to the lineage of Cyliani on through Fulcanelli,.... Abraham tells us exactly how to come to the matrix of our mercury and the coqtion of the stone in both the wet and dry ways, Fulcanelli's works as fanciful as they might sound to modern would be students of the art however they are only after thoughts borrowed from this highly esteemed work of natural science,.....

our mercury .....it was called dry water cause it had in its composotion a perfect balance of all five elements concocted from astral light, emanting from the dry river that floats over our heads..that is the milky way or even the pole star symbolism if you will or our fifth escence from which the earth was created and is sustained, likewise an aerial humidity imparted from the wind who carried it in its belly and a firey nature that it was imparted to it from the sun its father and mirroed by the moon its mother and a subtle virgin earth given to it by its nursemaid who nursed it in her womb that it was absorbed into rounded out its virtues. Yes it was represented by the Star of David because its symbolism of the two mated triangles whose intesections represented all four elements. It was potentialized futher and further by reiteration on the same virgin earth that it was lixivated from until it was able to calcine gold, this was the sabre that could pierce and incise into all metals,.... of course this werk relied on the right season and the proper conditions for the spirtus mundi to descend into our virgin earth otherwise when this "dry water" was put to the matter containing the two metallic natures it would dissolve it without effect because the "agent solvent would be devoid of virtue", of course not mentioned in the werk as was mentioned above, the philosophers had other methods of attracting the spiritus mundi even without a matter to fix it to as was hit upon previously when the method of Green Lion of this forum was mentioned and although the Philosophers stone can and was coqted from this water alone whose way was the most universal, it was generally put to metallic gold or a gold salt or dry colliod thereof to specify it to the mineral realm and since both the astral spirit and pure gold is of the same origin ,the one matter rule is not violated, this was the method whereby all the color changes were observed which was the water calcining and opening gold to reveal ,..ultimately its inner sulphur...Abraham goes on to tell of another way ,....a dry way but for this method you need to find the matter of which all the riddles, symbols and anagrams were designed to hide the subject from the eyes of the sophists, puffers and evil ones and just to reiterate as stated above this is not to be confused with... the first matter, or the first matter of metals or the coqted dry water salt....."the stone of the philosophers taken from the mine was descriptive enough".. "they all paid homage to it through their names" ...Abraham gives this matter plainly...no its not stibnite,or galena but puch or even philosophic lead is a better description without giving its name outright without misleading the unwise,.... the Compass of The Wise also navigates us to it. This stone was either treated exactly as the virgin earth in a wet way... ground and put to absorb the flux of the sun and moon and a salt of a Smaragdine colour was obtained that was reiterated upon itself and ultimately upon fresh crude materia and repeated or in an alternate wet way it was put in a bath with the previously cocted dry water made by the first method obtained from the virgin earth taken knee deep and a more powerful dry water symbolised in the Mutus Liber, the real green(Smaragdine) lion was made in this way that was given the sol, that is gold to devour and ultimately coqted into the philsophers stone or the dry way the crude materia was put to the fire and its mercury already coagulated and held back was freed from its jailer, the arsenical sulfur, and purified by the help of aries and our previously coqted dry water salt or our double or triple salt which Abraham also gives instructions on how to produce which had the help of urine or tartar of old wine barrels,(cabala mineralis) these salts purified this stone as it was taken from the mine and elevated it above the level of saturn and made it philosophical plumbum, ultimately once its mercury was collected its worthless corpus was also rejected, some erronously purport that it is the metal that is used however if we come to understand the word "mercury" as it was used by the ancients we will understand it not by the metal but by the metallic spirit which once freed mixing with our dry water salt until we came to a green vitriol, the scoria or the green lion and its blood which is collected from the center of its purified earth, thus the v-i-t-r-i-o-l anagram, the true philsophic mercury which was collected or ground back into its matrix of vitriol and was coqted with gold or the sulfur of gold obtained from antimony in the dry way, as a rebis. Or alternately the crude materia was allowed to either slowly solve itself by its own moisture until it separted from its form over a long period of time, a smaragdine salt or the crude materias fumes were liberated in the form of flowers and these flowers were collected reiterated and coqted to come to also to the matrix of mercury in a humid way also capable of solving gold in the same mysterious way who's explanation defies reason just as life itself does.

Amen

Aleilius
03-06-2011, 02:42 AM
Amen....Thats the most sense this thread has made since people started quoting Fulcanelli lately..... Hi folks been following this thread and had to chime quickly.....
....instead of being blinded by the literary aspects and allowing our interest to peaked into solving riddles that the writer himself has not solved...why not go back and learn from the more classic authors that spoke more clearly,.... like for instance.... Uraltes Chymisches Werck... this book apparently written, judging from its tone, during the Roman perscution of the Jews would have placed its authorship sometime after the death of Christ, within its contents which absolutley were the basis for Flammel's werk and all the apprentices of his linage which might include elsewise its methods were also imparted to the lineage of Cyliani on through Fulcanelli,.... Abraham tells us exactly how to come to the matrix of our mercury and the coqtion of the stone in both the wet and dry ways, Fulcanelli's works as fanciful as they might sound to modern would be students of the art however they are only after thoughts borrowed from this highly esteemed work of natural science,.....

our mercury .....it was called dry water cause it had in its composotion a perfect balance of all five elements concocted from astral light, emanting from the dry river that floats over our heads..that is the milky way or even the pole star symbolism if you will or our fifth escence from which the earth was created and is sustained, likewise an aerial humidity imparted from the wind who carried it in its belly and a firey nature that it was imparted to it from the sun its father and mirroed by the moon its mother and a subtle virgin earth given to it by its nursemaid who nursed it in her womb that it was absorbed into rounded out its virtues. Yes it was represented by the Star of David because its symbolism of the two mated triangles whose intesections represented all four elements. It was potentialized futher and further by reiteration on the same virgin earth that it was lixivated from until it was able to calcine gold, this was the sabre that could pierce and incise into all metals,.... of course this werk relied on the right season and the proper conditions for the spirtus mundi to descend into our virgin earth otherwise when this "dry water" was put to the matter containing the two metallic natures it would dissolve it without effect because the "agent solvent would be devoid of virtue", of course not mentioned in the werk as was mentioned above, the philosophers had other methods of attracting the spiritus mundi even without a matter to fix it to as was hit upon previously when the method of Green Lion of this forum was mentioned and although the Philosophers stone can and was coqted from this water alone whose way was the most universal, it was generally put to metallic gold or a gold salt or dry colliod thereof to specify it to the mineral realm and since both the astral spirit and pure gold is of the same origin ,the one matter rule is not violated, this was the method whereby all the color changes were observed which was the water calcining and opening gold to reveal ,..ultimately its inner sulphur...Abraham goes on to tell of another way ,....a dry way but for this method you need to find the matter of which all the riddles, symbols and anagrams were designed to hide the subject from the eyes of the sophists, puffers and evil ones and just to reiterate as stated above this is not to be confused with... the first matter, or the first matter of metals or the coqted dry water salt....."the stone of the philosophers taken from the mine was descriptive enough".. "they all paid homage to it through their names" ...Abraham gives this matter plainly...no its not stibnite,or galena but puch or even philosophic lead is a better description without giving its name outright without misleading the unwise,.... the Compass of The Wise also navigates us to it. This stone was either treated exactly as the virgin earth in a wet way... ground and put to absorb the flux of the sun and moon and a salt of a Smaragdine colour was obtained that was reiterated upon itself and ultimately upon fresh crude materia and repeated or in an alternate wet way it was put in a bath with the previously cocted dry water made by the first method obtained from the virgin earth taken knee deep and a more powerful dry water symbolised in the Mutus Liber, the real green(Smaragdine) lion was made in this way that was given the sol, that is gold to devour and ultimately coqted into the philsophers stone or the dry way the crude materia was put to the fire and its mercury already coagulated and held back was freed from its jailer, the arsenical sulfur, and purified by the help of aries and our previously coqted dry water salt or our double or triple salt which Abraham also gives instructions on how to produce which had the help of urine or tartar of old wine barrels,(cabala mineralis) these salts purified this stone as it was taken from the mine and elevated it above the level of saturn and made it philosophical plumbum, ultimately once its mercury was collected its worthless corpus was also rejected, some erronously purport that it is the metal that is used however if we come to understand the word "mercury" as it was used by the ancients we will understand it not by the metal but by the metallic spirit which once freed mixing with our dry water salt until we came to a green vitriol, the scoria or the green lion and its blood which is collected from the center of its purified earth, thus the v-i-t-r-i-o-l anagram, the true philsophic mercury which was collected or ground back into its matrix of vitriol and was coqted with gold or the sulfur of gold obtained from antimony in the dry way, as a rebis. Or alternately the crude materia was allowed to either slowly solve itself by its own moisture until it separted from its form over a long period of time, a smaragdine salt or the crude materias fumes were liberated in the form of flowers and these flowers were collected reiterated and coqted to come to also to the matrix of mercury in a humid way also capable of solving gold in the same mysterious way who's explanation defies reason just as life itself does.

Amen

Oh God, PARAGRAPHS PEOPLE!

Reading all that is so painful.

Hellin Hermetist
03-06-2011, 01:10 PM
Very good observation, Hellin!

Yes, Fulcanelli talks in the Amiens Chapter of his Mystery of the Cathedrales about the temperature of the foruth degree of fire going to close to 1200 degrees C. (dry path). In the Dampierre Chapter of his Dwellings, Fulcanelli talks about maintaining the same temperature throughout the coction, and that it should be at the temperature of "the incubation of a hen's egg". He does stress that the four degrees of fire are meant to be considered metaphorically. Also, we are not sure which of the two paths he is talking about in this Chapter. Thus the temperature likely differs significantly whether using the dry way of the humid way. In addition, I often felt that Fulcanellli's first book was written much earlier, before he accomplished the making of the Stone, and that it may have included some ideas that didn't quite pan out once he wrote his second book.

I realize that these are not the best of reasons for the discrepancy between the two books (there are others). I personally rely more on the second book than I do the first, for the very reason that I think the first book was written somewhat theoretically, before he actually verified his theories by practice. He may then have realized the error of some of his previous theories. Perhaps someone else has a better explanation for this discrepancy.

This explanation sounds plausible. We have to remember that Fulcanelli didn't write any book. He only gave the notes which he had gathered to Canseliet and the latter made a book out of them. So it's possible that Fulcanelli, during his examination of the great cathedrals, had only a theoretical and not a practical experience of some stages of the opus.

Μaybe during his examination of the cathedrals he hadn't some keys, which he was able to acquire only later, during his examination of the stone paintings of the Dampierre castle and the other buildings. In any case his latter book is far better than the former.

Hellin Hermetist
03-06-2011, 01:49 PM
Because it constitutes what is alchemical about the entire operation. Everything afterwards is mostly just pure chemistry.



Better say pure agriculture





And they play a very important role.He calls it “internal fire”, or “latent light”. It is more concerntrated in iron than in any other metal. This latent light modifies the passive subject, which is then called the fiery and prolific “green lion”. It floats like an oil on the surface during the sublimations.



We have to shed some light to that point as well. Do we need the internal fire/latent light of iron to modify our first mineral matter (Magnesia) so as to extract it's spirit (Spirit of Magnesia or Common Mercury) or do we have to take our prepared Common Mercury and make a philosophical dissolution of iron in it? If the latter is the case, and always according to Fulcanelli, this Martian dissolution will not give us a green crystal, which looks like a vitriol. The sulphur of iron is a pale red and the mercury of iron has a bright blue colour, so the body which proceed from their conjunction (metallic spore or quintessence of the metal) has a purplish colour (see the Bodyguards of Francis II). Or, in order to acquire the green lion, we have to make a second dissolution, that of the metallic spore to our first mercury/common solvent or to a modified version of that solvent? The possibilities seems to be endless.





For example, the “first matter” of the work is Magnesia. The “first matter” of the Stone is philosophical gold. There are numerous other such examples which I will leave for others to find on their own.



According to my understanding "philosophical gold" is a certain substance, which the artist introduces to his mercury (or to one of his mercuries), in order to make the inner and essential sulphur of the latter to come from a latent to an energetic state. When this takes place, this active inner sulphur causes the congelation of its surrounding mercury to pure and fiery sulphur. So this philosophical gold has to be a metallic sulphur or a metallic spore. Most probable it's a metallic spore. It's the vegetable spore which putrefy itself inside the ground, in order to make a congelation of the water with which we irrigate it and of the air which surrounds it, so as to bring forth a plant or a tree to the light.

There is also a certain mystery/secret of the two mercuries. The first, known under the name Alcahest, is a destructive agent, which makes a complete dissolution of the metallic body in order to extract it's quintessence or the metallic spore. The second is our earth or vase, to which we introduce that spore, in order to cause its putrefaction and to promote the appearance of a new body. What is the difference of these two mercuries? Do we have to extract the second from the first? These are difficult questions.

Andro
03-06-2011, 02:14 PM
There is also a certain mystery/secret of the two mercuries. The first, known under the name Alkahest, is a destructive agent, which makes a complete dissolution of the metallic body in order to extract it's quintessence or the metallic spore. The second is our earth or vase, to which we introduce that spore, in order to cause its putrefaction and to promote the appearance of a new body. What is the difference of these two mercuries? Do we have to extract the second from the first? These are difficult questions.

Not really difficult questions, when we realize that Universal (Common) Mercury has the ability to self-impregnate ('marry' itself and give 'Virgin Birth', so to speak...)

Illen A. Cluf
03-06-2011, 10:17 PM
We have to remember that Fulcanelli didn't write any book. He only gave the notes which he had gathered to Canseliet and the latter made a book out of them. So it's possible that Fulcanelli, during his examination of the great cathedrals, had only a theoretical and not a practical experience of some stages of the opus.

That is true, but Fulcanelli did bundle his notes and apparently gave Canseliet some instructions on how the notes should be handled. With this in mind, I assume that the first book was based on the earliest bundle of notes.


Maybe during his examination of the cathedrals he hadn't some keys, which he was able to acquire only later, during his examination of the stone paintings of the Dampierre castle and the other buildings. In any case his latter book is far better than the former.

I agree - this is also my understanding. There is a noticeable difference between the two books. I also noticed some time ago that certain terms often used in the second book are not mentioned even once in the first book, as though his understanding leaped to a new plateau, perhaps through a breakthrough orthrough the assistance of his mentor. I don’t know if anyone has ever done a critical comparison between the two books (in the French language, since the English versions result from different translators).

Illen A. Cluf
03-06-2011, 10:35 PM
Better say pure agriculture

Yes, that’s a valid alternative, especially concerning the alchemical part, which Fulcanelli expressed himself:

“The ancients often called alchemy the celestial agriculture, because it offers in its laws, circumstances and conditions the most intimate of connection with terrestrial agriculture. There is scarcely a classical author who does not draw his examples from, and does not establish his demonstrations on agricultural labor. The hermetic analogy thus appears founded on the art of the farmer. Just as one needs a seed to obtain an ear of corn --- nisi granum frumenti (if not with the seed of wheat) --- in the same way, it is essential first to possess the metallic seed, in order to multiply the metal. Now each fruit bears its seed within itself and each body, whatever it may be, possesses its own.”


We have to shed some light to that point as well. Do we need the internal fire/latent light of iron to modify our first mineral matter (Magnesia) so as to extract it's spirit (Spirit of Magnesia or Common Mercury) or do we have to take our prepared Common Mercury and make a philosophical dissolution of iron in it? If the latter is the case, and always according to Fulcanelli, this Martian dissolution will not give us a green crystal, which looks like a vitriol. The sulphur of iron is a pale red and the mercury of iron has a bright blue colour, so the body which proceed from their conjunction (metallic spore or quintessence of the metal) has a purplish colour (see the Bodyguards of Francis II). Or, in order to acquire the green lion, we have to make a second dissolution, that of the metallic spore to our first mercury/common solvent or to a modified version of that solvent? The possibilities seems to be endless.

I’m very impressed! You’ve obviously studied Fulcanelli to some depth and have picked up on much of the deliberate subtlety, which so many seem to have missed, but who still continue to talk about his work with authority, or dismiss it as nonsense, in favour of other, less helpful works.

My understanding is that the latent light from iron (remember Fulcanelli’s three iron nails) is used to extract the Common Mercury from our first mineral matter (Magnesia). This is the result of Nature’s work. The only thing that this common mercury lacks is the metallic seed. The common mercury is then used to dissolve the philosophical gold, resulting in philosophical mercury, a product of art. The philosophical mercury (the alembic of the sages) is composed of both the fixed and volatile, however, it is not yet radically united. Purple is the true color of pure iron.

The sulfur is the stone’s primum ens. The crude mineral or earth of the sages contains both the active and hidden spirit.. Using imbibitions, the finely powdered crude body becomes a soft paste and eventually has a syrupy, oily, and then watery consistency. It is then subjected under certain conditions to the influence of fire, and part of the liquor coagulates into a mass and falls to the bottom. This is our precious sulfur, the newborn child, the little king, the dolphin, the fish, the echeneis, remora, pilot fish, etc. Itis often shaped like an ellipse (this like a fish), is dark on one side and light on the other. The sulfur sinks, while the green lion floats.




According to my understanding "philosophical gold" is a certain substance, which the artist introduces to his mercury (or to one of his mercuries), in order to make the inner and essential sulphur of the latter to come from a latent to an energetic state. When this takes place, this active inner sulphur causes the congelation of its surrounding mercury to pure and fiery sulphur. So this philosophical gold has to be a metallic sulphur or a metallic spore. Most probable it's a metallic spore. It's the vegetable spore which putrefy itself inside the ground, in order to make a congelation of the water with which we irrigate it and of the air which surrounds it, so as to bring forth a plant or a tree to the light.

There is also a certain mystery/secret of the two mercuries. The first, known under the name Alcahest, is a destructive agent, which makes a complete dissolution of the metallic body in order to extract it's quintessence or the metallic spore. The second is our earth or vase, to which we introduce that spore, in order to cause its putrefaction and to promote the appearance of a new body. What is the difference of these two mercuries? Do we have to extract the second from the first? These are difficult questions.

Again, I’m impressed. I really had began to think that there were almost no others who had picked up on Fulcanelli’s clever subleties. Your interpretation is so close to mine, that it helps confirm some of my own interpretations, and brings me more confidence with this approach. Most people, even those who have read Fulcanelli more than once, wouldn’t have any idea of what we are talking about. It’s refreshing to find another with the depth of understanding that you possess.

Philosophical gold and the process with which it is developed, is one of the topics that Fulcanelli seems to provide the least assistance with, as though this was the one area that troubled him most, and which his mentor finally assisted him with under the strictest conditions of absolute secrecy. Fulcanelli seemed to wish with all his heart that he could reveal more, but was under orders not to do so. He does provide several important hints.

I would like to continue this discussion, but, before I do, we are just beginning to touch on some very sensitive points. Do you think it’s wise to continue this discussion on an open forum? Besides, it has already been pointed out recently that there is no appreciation at all for this type of assistance. Many of the others (not all) are obviously far more interested in what both us would likely consider to be ‘superficial’ discussions, about what they consider to be ‘alchemy’, and, by the way that they express their biased perspectives (i.e. in a factual, dogmatic, egotistical fashion rather than as a considered premise or belief open to challenge and change), it appears that they are already fully and completely convinced of their conclusions to the exclusuon of any other possibility whatsoever. Discussion, debate or change is not in their vocabulary. Obviously, they have successfully made the Stone to its completion and are already true Adepts, far beyond the reach of us lowly peons:-)

Pink Panther
03-06-2011, 11:52 PM
Hello,

About clay as a matter, we could think about this book :
"The art of the potter", by Cypriano Piccolpasso (sometimes Piccolpassi or Piccolpassy), 1524-1579, translated into French in 1860 by Claudius Popelin :
"Les troys libvres de l'art du potier esquels se traicte non seulement de la practique, mais briefvement de tous les secretz de ceste chouse qui iouxte mes huy a estée tousiours tenue célée, / du Cypriano Piccolpasso; translatés de l'italién en langue francoyse, par Claudius Popelyn."
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1134040/f4.image

But it's still difficult to choose between a litteral or allegoric meaning of "clay". My ideas are not definitively clear about this.
For example, Les Récréations hermétiques describe the collossus' clay feet as "metals from first origin", id est : Saturn, Jovis, ...
Other example : some of you were talking about "spore" and agriculture. A short extract quoted from Fulcanelli :
"Et si l’on désire avoir quelque idée de la science secrète, que l’on reporte sa pensée sur le travail de l’agriculteur et sur celui du microbiologiste, car le nôtre est placé sous la dépendance de conditions analogues. Or, de même que la nature donne au cultivateur la terre et le grain, au microbiologiste l’agar-agar et la spore, de même elle fournit à l’alchimiste le terrain métallique propre et la semence convenable. Si toutes les circonstances favorables à la marche régulière de cette culture spéciale sont rigoureusement observées, la récolte ne pourra qu’être abondante..."
"And if one wants to have some idea of the secret science, which can delay their thoughts on the work of the farmer and one of the microbiologist, because ours is placed under the control of similar conditions. Now, just as nature gives the farmer the land and grain, a microbiologist at the agar-agar and the spore, so it provides to the alchemist the proper metalic field and the seed proper. If all the circumstances favorable to the smooth running of this special culture are well followed, the crop can only be plentiful ..."
(Dwellings, I, end of the chapter "Alchimie & spagyrie"
So for Fulcanelli, this "metalic fiel" is equivalent to the farmer's land and to the microbiologist's agar-agar. What can be this "metalic field" ?
Let's take a Sumerian dictionnary :
agal : flooded land
agar : land cultivated, irrigated
agar5 : lead
Ok, I don't know if Fulcanelli knew theese etymologies, but quite strange coincidences, no ?

On the other hand, clay is definitively more common than lead or galena, and Cyprien Theodore Tiffereau reported that mexican miners saw ferrous clay as "the mother of gold". Later, Fulcanelli took over this statement without mentioning Tiffereau's name : Dwellings, "Alchimie & spagyrie" : "when Mexican prospectors come to discover a very red sandy soil, mainly composed of oxidized iron, they conclude that gold is not far". Actualy, this ferrous soil could be a kind of laterite.

___________
PS : Hi, Teofrast & GreenLion (ok, "PinkPanther" c'était facile !)

Andro
03-07-2011, 12:30 AM
My statement was relative to the Privy Seal of Secrets where it states, "I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries".
When the author of the Seal of Secrets examines it, he finds a lump of clay, because this what is thrown out the mines.

Just for the fun of it: A Brick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick) Road :)

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/RedBrickRoad.jpg

Seth-Ra
03-07-2011, 01:09 AM
Just for the fun of it: A Brick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick) Road :)

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/RedBrickRoad.jpg

Very nice Androgynus. :D
Follow that yellow-brick road to the Emerald City. ;)


~Seth-Ra

rogerc
03-07-2011, 01:31 AM
Hello,

About clay as a matter, we could think about this book :
"The art of the potter", by Cypriano Piccolpasso (sometimes Piccolpassi or Piccolpassy), 1524-1579, translated into French in 1860 by Claudius Popelin :
"Les troys libvres de l'art du potier esquels se traicte non seulement de la practique, mais briefvement de tous les secretz de ceste chouse qui iouxte mes huy a estée tousiours tenue célée, / du Cypriano Piccolpasso; translatés de l'italién en langue francoyse, par Claudius Popelyn."
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1134040/f4.image

But it's still difficult to choose between a litteral or allegoric meaning of "clay". My ideas are not definitively clear about this.
For example, Les Récréations hermétiques describe the collossus' clay feet as "metals from first origin", id est : Saturn, Jovis, ...
Other example : some of you were talking about "spore" and agriculture. A short extract quoted from Fulcanelli :
"Et si l’on désire avoir quelque idée de la science secrète, que l’on reporte sa pensée sur le travail de l’agriculteur et sur celui du microbiologiste, car le nôtre est placé sous la dépendance de conditions analogues. Or, de même que la nature donne au cultivateur la terre et le grain, au microbiologiste l’agar-agar et la spore, de même elle fournit à l’alchimiste le terrain métallique propre et la semence convenable. Si toutes les circonstances favorables à la marche régulière de cette culture spéciale sont rigoureusement observées, la récolte ne pourra qu’être abondante..."
"And if one wants to have some idea of the secret science, which can delay their thoughts on the work of the farmer and one of the microbiologist, because ours is placed under the control of similar conditions. Now, just as nature gives the farmer the land and grain, a microbiologist at the agar-agar and the spore, so it provides to the alchemist the proper metalic field and the seed proper. If all the circumstances favorable to the smooth running of this special culture are well followed, the crop can only be plentiful ..."
(Dwellings, I, end of the chapter "Alchimie & spagyrie"
So for Fulcanelli, this "metalic fiel" is equivalent to the farmer's land and to the microbiologist's agar-agar. What can be this "metalic field" ?
Let's take a Sumerian dictionnary :
agal : flooded land
agar : land cultivated, irrigated
agar5 : lead
Ok, I don't know if Fulcanelli knew theese etymologies, but quite strange coincidences, no ?

On the other hand, clay is definitively more common than lead or galena, and Cyprien Theodore Tiffereau reported that mexican miners saw ferrous clay as "the mother of gold". Later, Fulcanelli took over this statement without mentioning Tiffereau's name : Dwellings, "Alchimie & spagyrie" : "when Mexican prospectors come to discover a very red sandy soil, mainly composed of oxidized iron, they conclude that gold is not far". Actualy, this ferrous soil could be a kind of laterite.

___________
PS : Hi, Teofrast & GreenLion (ok, "PinkPanther" c'était facile !)

remember as well that the alchemists formed fraternal organizations it is by no coincedence that they called themselves..."masons"......from Recreations Hermetiques...heres a rough english translation from a supporting passage..."It is more effective than washing brass, or to
IMPAST one, which applies very well or women engaged in laundry or
children who make the dolls and balls of clay or wet ground.
Lavare impastare and, in hoc magisterium consistet sapientum.
The time of this great and important operation is about two years
Commons. And when it is finished, the learning of our masonry, because it is
that the latter true, the learning ends, it is up to companionship with
tests are much shorter and less harsh."

Green Lion
03-07-2011, 06:09 AM
PS : Hi, Teofrast & GreenLion (ok, "PinkPanther" c'était facile !)

Salut.

C'était facile, mais j'aime bien.

teofrast40
03-07-2011, 12:37 PM
hi everybody,
I'm really glad of the exchange that is going on in this thread. I red some really interesting interventions, thank you.
I must confess that my understanding of Fulcanelli isn't that deep, as I red it only a couples of times, deciding to study it seriously when my classical grounding will be enough solid. As for Canseliet, I still have to face him..
that said, and considered that in my humble opinion fulcanelli mingles wickedly matters , paths and proceedings (i have also the gut feeling -but not the clue- of his works to be written by more than one hand), I used to consider fulcanelli's common mercury to be the same thing as the eau celeste of les recreations, Llulle menstrum coelicum, and the water of life of classical alchemy, a solvent that draws the principles from any mixt without killing it, but instead nourishing its life force, as everything is solved by that from which he came - as glass from water.
regarding dry and humid ways, please consider the definition of them that is given inside les recreations and Der Warer alter naturweg: it has nothing to do with temperatures, but only with the source of sulphur, that can be drawn from vulgar gold or from the earth left behind by the eagles. this fits perfectly with what Cyliani (and IMHO Philalete too) says about it.
with humility
t
(P.S. hi pinkpanther and welcome! nice nick by the way..)

Andro
03-08-2011, 12:51 PM
Texts associated with the Cyliani lineage (and especially 'Alter Naturweg') are quite practical and explicit when it comes to the laboratory steps to be employed in the process they describe.

As I believe Jerry has mentioned before, there is indeed (in this lineage) a distinction between the Fast Way (Ars Brevis) and the Dry Way/Wet Way, which, according to 'Alter Naturweg', share the same beginning.
From my understanding of 'Alter Naturweg' (and please correct me if I'm wrong), both Wet and Dry Ways (as described in 'Alter Naturweg') include the options of working either with metallic gold or with philosophical gold, both obtained externally.

What lies at the core of truly Alchemical processes is actually the exact same Pattern of Generation/Manifestation that we use in the most 'purist' Universal Wet Way as well. Unlike the Cyliani lineage (?), Mercury alone is sufficient for carrying out the entire Work, without adding anything external and without any intervention by the Artist except the preparation of the Vase with the Seal of Hermes (symbolized by the six-pointed star), and the regulation of the Fire.

This Pattern is actually the Greatest Secret, and it is hidden in plain sight all across Nature under a wide variety of guises. We must look beyond the vulgar to realize it.
It is this Pattern that I am employing in all of my works and experiments.

The so-called 'North-Pointing Apparatus' previously mentioned in this thread (physical or allegorical North, you decide...), would also (probably and most likely) consist of an application of the same Pattern, but there are also other ways to apply it. It is the Pattern of Origin, the Pattern of Genesis.

Quoth Bruce Springsteen:


You can't start a fire, you can't start a fire without a spark
This gun's for hire even if we're just dancing in the dark.

Me and some friends have various experiments in progress, to test for maximum efficiency. Winter time, however, did not appear to be very rewarding in our case.
Therefore, I'm glad Spring is coming, so we can pick up the pace...

teofrast40
03-08-2011, 07:54 PM
hi androginus,
thank you for this intervention.


From my understanding of 'Alter Naturweg' (and please correct me if I'm wrong), both Wet and Dry Ways (as described in 'Alter Naturweg') include the options of working either with metallic gold or with philosophical gold, both obtained externally.

how did you come to this conclusion?
I humbly have a different perception, as in paragraph 36, I read:


Welcher nun das gemeine (symbol for sun/gold) zur Präparation der (tinktur) verwirft, derselbe arbeitet im trockenen Wege, und in solchem mit der philosophischen und determinirten, in der Materia universalis befindlichen (sun/gold) ; welcher aber das gemeine (sun/gold) zur Bereitung der Materia angeibet, derselbe hat im nassen Wege gearbeitet, und hat eine (tinktur) erlanget, so nach des (sun/gold) Eigenschaft würket.


Who now rejects the common (symbol for sun / gold) for the preparation of the (tincture), the same works in the dry way, and with the (sun / gold) located in the philosophical and (determinated? aforesaid?) materia universalis; who, however, uses the common (sun / gold) for preparing the Materia, the same has worked in the wet way, and has obtained a (tincture), so working according to the (gold/sun) properties.
from this and from what he says in the chapter die II rotation, both in dry and wet way sections, to me it's quite evident that dry or universal way uses just one matter (as the water it's taken from the same earth to which after it is applied, and later the sulphur is taken from the black earth left behind from the eagles), while humid or particular way uses the sulphur from calcinated common gold. les recreations say exactly the same.
I can agree that this definition is quite uncommon, but that's what the text says.


Quoth Bruce Springsteen:

You can't start a fire, you can't start a fire without a spark
This gun's for hire even if we're just dancing in the dark.
Me and some friends have various experiments in progress, to test for maximum efficiency. Winter time, however, did not appear to be very rewarding in our case.
Therefore, I'm glad Spring is coming, so we can pick up the pace...
this is interesting..

cheers
t

Andro
03-08-2011, 08:53 PM
Hi Teo,

In my previous understanding, the wet and dry of this lineage differ in the form/consistency of the 'Sophic Mercury' (Liquid Mercury Vs. Dry Powder)
But, I have re-read the text and you are probably correct in your analysis. My misinterpretation may have come from the fact that the text uses the same symbol for Gold for both ways.

It can be confusing, because the Tincture can be either of liquid or of dry consistency. The color may also vary, depending on the level of maturity and the method of preparation.

But thanks for the clarification :)

I think we should stick to the Cyliani related lineage in this thread, to avoid further confusion.
_____________________________________

On a side note, since Agriculture has been mentioned in this thread, it's worth noting the frequent use of the the term 'Little Farmer' in the text of 'Alter Naturweg'...
Man, as Microcosmos, is also mentioned in the same work...
_____________________________________


You can't start a fire, you can't start a fire without a spark
This gun's for hire even if we're just dancing in the dark.

Think Genesis :)
_____________________

Prema Materia
03-11-2011, 12:47 AM
Greetings,
I'm new to the forum, and I've really appreciated the posts on this thread. Since several of the tasks related to Alchemy seem to involve work at night, I found a nice website that talks about the chemistry of the air related to day/night, season, temperature, and humidity. Here 'tis: http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/enid/24z.html.
Fraternally,
Prema Materia

teofrast40
03-17-2011, 06:50 PM
hi everybody,
talking about antecedents of this lineage, what do you think about the Fons alchemicae philosophiae by Philaletes?
it mentions Leminian earth (a red earth used as therapeutic in middle age) as the vulgar name of the subject, that has to be irrigated by our water. this is not vulgar rainwater, but the true pluvial water, water of saltpeter that is similar to vulgar mercury, but in itself is an infernal fire. this mercury comes from the sun in mars and has to be harvested in october, when it's perfectly mature.
his talking of the vessel and fire to me look very similar to those of les recreations hermetiques.
the more, he too mentions digging a hole at one's knees depth (this time on a hig mountain, here , as in cosmopolite, the meaning seems more allegorical).
I wait your considerations
cheers
t

asta
03-28-2011, 02:00 AM
Hello all,

Firstly, let me apologize because of my horrible English.

I don't know why you guys are talking about the First Matter. We are far enough from that point. The philosophers already talked rivers of ink about this. It's the Androginous Mercury, the Philosophical Marriage between the Suplhur and Mercury. So why don't focus instead in the Subject of the Art?

The Subject of the Art is the Matter that we should work in order to obtain the First Matter. The First Matter could not be find in the Nature as is. It should be made by the artist. Cyliani talks clearly enought about the Subject of the Art, as many others, like the Emerald Table or the Recreations Hermetiques. It is so easy to find and it is only one matter, not two; it isn't a metal, but it is, because it brights like a metal; I'll try to explain it later.

As many philosophers said, like Vilanova or Geber, the Philosophers Stone comes only from one place: the place from where it already is. So, where do we have such Stone? Think about it. What the Stone is? It is pure Fire, pure Pneuma, Espiritus Mundi, trapped inside a vitreus matrix. To find that Fire, we hare to rotate the Wheel of the Nature (do you remember that magic square "SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS"?). The Fire is dry and hot. We can archieve it only throw the Air (hot and wet); this one from the Water (cold and wet) and that one from the Earth (cold and dry). So, first, we have to find such that Earth.

If the Stone its pure Pneuma, that comes from the center of the Universe, and that is Fire that becomes Air, then Water and then Earth; I think it is clear enough. If you now realized which Earth it is, only apply the Solve et Coagula, to rotate the Wheel of the Elements; get your four elements seppared and join them because of their properties. That will give you Sulphur and Mercury.

So, the Matter we have to work its Fire, Pneuma, Espiritus Mundi. That Fire is is trapped, amalgamated with Magnesia of the Sages (from magneto, magnet in latin). So here we have the two matters talked by Cyliani: the Fire and the Magnesia. The Fire its the Boat, and the Magnesia its the little Fish (echeneis or remora), which can fix that Boat in the big Sea of the Philosophers. Then, that amalgalm lay in the air, above our heads. There are many ways to get it, but only one gives a good quantity. Then, the rotation of the elements throw the Solve et Coagula will finnish the Magistery.

Just keep in mind that theres only one way to go from Fire to Earth, and thats is Fire -> Air -> Water -> Earth; and that theres only one way to go from Earth to Fire, and thats is Earth -> Water -> Air -> Fire.

Andro
03-28-2011, 03:40 AM
Firstly, let me apologize because of my horrible English.

That's no problem at all, as long as content coherence is maintained.


I don't know why you guys are talking about the First Matter.

Because, apparently, it is still a matter of interest for some of those participating in the discussion. I hope this answers your question.


We are far enough from that point.

I find it advisable not to speak for a group ('we'), unless one is using the royal plural.
If you believe to have discovered some keys, please also respect where others are on their quest. Not everyone is in the same place on their Path.


The philosophers already talked rivers of ink about this. It's the Androginous Mercury, the Philosophical Marriage between the Suplhur and Mercury.

No. Here, you are not describing the First Matter. You are jumping ahead, and you are already describing the Tincture.


It should be made by the artist.

To the best of my knowledge, the First Matter can not be made by the Artist, unless the Artist knows the Genesis Codes. This is almost never the case.

The Artist rather 'separates' or 'liberates' the First Matter from its vulgar 'prison', and condenses it in a form in which it may be interacted with on a physical/material level.


[...] the Philosophers Stone comes only from one place: the place from where it already is. So, where do we have such Stone? [...] So, first, we have to find such that Earth.

Are you talking about what 'Alter Naturweg' describes as:


[...] is found in all things, in Water and between Two Mountains, and the poor have it as well as the rich [...]

?

asta
03-28-2011, 11:43 AM
Androgynus, I'm sorry, It is true I should have said "I" instead of "we". I apologize for that typo.

For me, the problem is that the First Matter isn't the matter I can find and start working on it. For me the First Matter its the Philosophical Mercury. Instead of that, what you call the First Matter it is for me the Subject of the Art, the substance I can find in the Nature and work with.

I'm talking exactly about that 'Alter Naturweg' quote. You may should check Pernety's Mytho Hermetic Dictionary and take a look for "mountains". He calls Mountains the metals, and the alchemists calls "metal" anything that has some brightness. I already explained in my first message about that two mountains calling them Boat and Fish.

Just keep in mind what I said about Espiritus Mundi and the elements rotation. The real starting matter it is the Espiritus Mundi, and that matter is the boat trapped by the little Fish in the big Sea of the Philosophers. First, it is Fire, then Air, then Water and finally Earth. The artist should find it in one of this states.

Andro
03-28-2011, 11:52 AM
Hi Asta,

Thanks for the clarificatiions.

The perspective you offer is much clearer now.

The mix-up regarding terminology is quite common, especially with terms like 'First Matter' and 'Starting Matter'.

vega33
03-28-2011, 07:52 PM
From Compass (quoting the authors of Der Klein Bauer)

Further you should also know that whoever understands the origin of metals will well know that the materia of our Stone must also be metallic. NB. But it is no metal nor mineral but metal and mineral, and mineral and metal. For their nature is all in one thing, called: Electrum minerale immaturam, an immature mineral-composed being.

Also, from the writings of the Mikrokosmiche Vorspiele:


Because wisdom is a Light, and this Light is the life of all creatures, and life is a tincture, and that tincture is not found fixed and permanent in any realm except the metallic, the men of God have gradually pursued this light of the secret wisdom as far as the compact realm of the metals. When they found it in an insignificant dark body (it is none other than our mineral Mercury with which our gold must be amalgamated), where nobody is looking for it, they freed it, tinged and augumented it with the upper Light, its origin, NB. and used it afterwards as a medicine for the prolongation of their own natural life.

Finally, from an old Rosicrucian text:

For when both of the natures Sulphur and Mercurius are enclosed in a very narrow space and are maintained with moderate heat, they begin to abate from their opposed character and to unite, until finally they have all the qualities.

Our authors are correct, the tincture is not found fixed and permanent until the metallic realm is reached. But just like animals and plants feed off something, a metal if it is to live and grow must feed off something. Therefore the first matter is a double body, a matter which Nature had been working on which was not able to be pushed far enough in the caverns of the metals. The materia, augumented by the upper Light (what Pernety called the Celestial Fire), has its own natural internal fire excited (what Pernety called the Central Fire) which allows it to live again and grow. The appropriate type of "heat"/fire causes the parts of the metallic compost to rub together. By the time that the material has been pushed from its darkness into whiteness and then finally redness, it is no longer chemically the same matter.

BTW, thanks to asta for their post.

Andro
03-29-2011, 03:13 PM
...take a look for "mountains". He calls Mountains the metals... I already explained in my first message about that two mountains calling them Boat and Fish.

How does the above interpretation sit with the numerous Man/Microcosmos references in this lineage? Especially in 'Alter Naturweg'?

Because micro-cosmically, I don't see too many possible interpretations for 'Between two Mountains' :)

What would be 'The Stone That The Builders Rejected' in this case? What is this special Earth, following this line of thought?
_____________________________________

Please keep in mind that I am only sticking with the lineage we are discussing here, not to other Paths or Approaches...

asta
03-29-2011, 04:07 PM
How does the above interpretation sit with the numerous Man/Microcosmos references in this lineage? Especially in 'Alter Naturweg'?

Because micro-cosmically, I don't see too many possible interpretations for 'Between two Mountains' :)

What would be 'The Stone That The Builders Rejected' in this case? What is this special Earth, following this line of thought?
_____________________________________

Please keep in mind that I am only sticking with the lineage we are discussing here, not to other Paths or Approaches...

Well for me Cyliani and the author of the Recréations Hermétiqués has to known each other. For me, they are following the same path.

That "between two Mountains" can be interpreted certainly as our Earth is between the mountains. But note the author starts those word with capital letters. For me, thats a hint to that double metallic nature the Earth has. It is magic steel and magnet. But are philosophic metals, not common ones.

'The Stone That The Builders Rejected' is the Earth. More than an Stone, for me its a Clay, the Adammic Earth. This Earth could be hard to find as is in the nature, but it is easy to find in the prior state (Water). The artist should be able to take it and let the Nature to work over it, in order to transmutate it to Earth.

It is present in many forms. But Cyliani is clear enough for me at this point. Some quote from "Hermes Dévóile":


Also do not forget that the mysterious solution of the matter or the magical marriage between Venus and Mars takes place in the temple of which I spoke to you previously on a fine night with a calm cloudless sky, the sun being in the sign of Gemini, the moon being in its first quarter at its full with the help of the magnet which attracts the Astral Spirit from the heavens. It is seven times rectified to the point that it can calcine gold.

So, I think now theres no secret at all.

Andro
03-29-2011, 04:29 PM
'Alter Naturweg' often mentions Man/Microcosmos in connection to the 'ore' and the 'separator'.

What is your opinion on that?

Also look at the erupting volcano illustration in 'Compass of the Wise' (see below).
Erupting volcanoes also have a microcosmic correspondence, of course.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Compass2.jpg

✂-----------------------------------

asta
03-29-2011, 04:47 PM
I don't know about what the 'Alter Naturweg' means with that connection. Sadly, every philosopher talks a language. The "ore", the starting matter, comes from the sky to the earth. It born in the macrocosmos to die in the microcosmos, and after a while it borns again here to go and die in the macrocosmos. The "separator", well, the whole Nature knows only a single operation: solve et coagula. The Sky, is its alembic.

About the "Compass of the Wise", more than an alchemical text, I see it like a masonic text, who takes symbols related to alchemy but they give a different meannings. I'm afraid, but I should stick to classical clearly alchemical texts.

However, that volcano might mean a link between the lower and upper sides of the world, and how the energies flow between.

True Initiate
03-29-2011, 09:02 PM
About the "Compass of the Wise", more than an alchemical text, I see it like a masonic text, who takes symbols related to alchemy but they give a different meannings. I'm afraid, but I should stick to classical clearly alchemical texts.


Cyiliani is a "clear" Author for you?
Cyiliani???

You must be joking, right?

asta
03-29-2011, 09:56 PM
Cyiliani is a "clear" Author for you?
Cyiliani???

You must be joking, right?

I'm sorry, my english it's not good. I mean to pay attention on those texts we clearly know they are about alchemy.

However, yes, for me Cyliani is very clear in the most of his text. Clearer than many others.

Andro
03-29-2011, 10:11 PM
I think the texts of this lineage very much complement each other.

While I find Cyliani, for example, to be quite explicit (in his allegories) about certain aspects of the work, 'Alter Naturweg' is far more precise and detailed with other aspects and has a more linear and methodical approach, IMO.

'Compass of the Wise' is more... encompassing... and besides the historical (or pseudo-historical?) content, it also provides significant clues about the more challenging aspects of the practical work (if one knows what to look for...)

teofrast40
03-30-2011, 02:53 PM
hi,
I find the Compass, to be fair only the anonimous text in the second part, very interesting.
But I must also say that while les Recreations Hermetiques, Cyliani, Der Warer alter Naturweg and Palmer have an uncontestable explicit link from a textual and philological standpoint, I cannot say the same for the Compass. I have also some doubts about I.C.H. and Ketmia Vere to be the same person.
with humility
t

Salazius
03-30-2011, 06:01 PM
I.C.H is Ich ! Ich !

Weidenfeld
03-31-2011, 06:07 PM
I.C.H is Ich ! Ich !

Otherwise I.C.H. is me ! me ;-)

teofrast40
04-01-2011, 07:50 AM
hi,
yes. and, pun aside, how could this help us in determining the autorship of these treatises?

with humility
t

solomon levi
07-22-2011, 07:58 PM
And this is the true Matter or Subject of the Philosophers, and mark how that it agreeth with that I said before: First, that it is one thing, which yet containeth three; Secondly, that it is a vile thing, and yet is not so, for it is a lump of Clay; Thirdly, that it is so vile and common that Workmen throw it out of their Mines, and tread on it, as a thing of no value: I have seen Highways paved with it in Hungary, and it is no other in other Countries.- Privy Seal of Secrets.

I know of this matter used to pave highways. It is not clay.
Temples have also been constructed of it.
Cyliani was lead to a TEMPLE which CONTAINED TWO CRYSTAL VASES.

One vase holds the universal spirit, the other holds the two matters.
You may focus on the vases and miss the temple.

That said, clay is still, IMO, an option, very near to the matter that paved highways.

rubellus
12-08-2011, 02:45 PM
Ok, but you don't specify the matters that are dissolved for obtain the Mercury.
Rubellus Petrinus
http://www.tpissarro.com/alquimia/
http://pissarro.home.sapo.pt/

solomon levi
02-09-2012, 06:20 AM
Well, what has been mentioned in this thread...
limestone, granite, gypsum, certain clay...

Both limestone and granite have been used to pave roads and build temples.

Regard the three salts at the beginning of this thread.

Greetings Maestro Rubellus!
Thank you for all your hard work and contribution to alchemy.

rogerc
02-09-2012, 07:45 AM
Greetings Maestro Rubellus!
Thank you for all your hard work and contribution to alchemy.

Hear, Hear!

Salazius
07-26-2013, 11:47 AM
Letter published on 'La Tourbe des Philosophes' N°18, 1982,

CORRESPONDENCE ON THE DISSOLUTION OF THE METALLIC BODY

To: Mr Magain In Metz

Mister and friend, Your invitation fills me at the same time with the pleasure of your friendship and with regret not to be able to be closer to interact with you. It is far from Amboise to Metz. My age makes me sensitive to the hazards of the inn, with the tiredness of diligence. And then I cannot leave the field between the hands of my people at that time when my absence would be felt. Believe well that I prefer to enjoy your so pleasant hospitality & to continue our hermetic conversations as we did it over these last three years. Your correspondence shows me that you understood extremely well the dissolution of the metallic body and the confection of the egg. You ask me however why you failed in the appearance of the signs, in spite of the accuracy of your operations. Not being able to explain it to you in a lively voice I entrust it to you by this letter that I insistently ask you to hold secret.

Your dissolving agent is stripped of virtue. You employ it suitably in vain, its weakness does not allow it to animate the metallic substance. It dissolves well but does not nourish what it dissolves.

Remember some general principles which will help you to understand what you have to make. Azoth & ignis tibi sufficiunt (Nitrogen and fire will suffice), one says. They are the two agents of this animation. All your attention must go on Azoth. If you read Arnauld de Villeneuve you will be convinced of this.

After more than one half-century during which chemistry was given order, Messrs de Lavoisier, Guytton de Morveau, and Beaumé, agreed on a precise nomenclature, but by allotting a bit randomly the known ancient names. However it is Mister de Lavoisier himself who firmly made a point of giving the name of nitrogen to that part of the air that one called ‘moufette’ (skunk) and that being contrary to the intention of these companions. The name nitrogen was thus adopted. Mister de Lavoisier was much more informed in the science of Hermes than was thought by his successors. Those who understand the two ideas of chemistry will distinguish it without difficulty in his writings. The nitrogen of the air, for certain, is well the nitrogen of the philosophers. One finds it only in the bodies which had life, at the moment of their decomposition; it ends up being solved out of ammonia. Mr Boussingault very recently made remarkable analyses which prove that fog and dew contain nitric acid. It is true that this scientist/chemist had another intention only to prove that the nitrogen of plants comes from the air and the rain; without taking into account the benefit which the mineral earth also gives to it. And that his discovery confirms the Emerald Table which teaches us that the Sun and the Moon are the father and the mother, that the wind carried it in its belly, & that the earth is its nurse. The astral seed of the sun and the moon dissolves in the dew when the latter condenses. It then rests with to us to take it out of the earth where she will be nourished.

Here in detail how is how you can operate. You will make provision for at least twelve pounds of gypsum which has been separated from foreign earth and stones. You will crush it into fragments of 3 rows of ¼ of inch, but not into powder.

It is necessary to calcine it with a light fire in a basin by unceasingly stirring it in order to remove it from its raw water. It becomes white, opaque and friable. It is the pure earth where you will sow the seed of soli-lunar gold.

You will lay it out it in a layer of two fingers thickness in dishes or pots made out of glazed earth which is not porous. The operation must be done at the beginning of spring by taking account of the climate specific to the country. Each morning, you will sprinkle the pots with fresh urine to soak the white earth slightly, but without soaking it. They should be exposed to the open sky. The high terrace of your house, where the windows of your physics laboratory are, is completely suitable. Start with the 1st quarter moon, as soon as the sun retires. Bring the pots back in when the sun rises. They will have received the lunar light, then at the end of the night, the dew which remains is impregnated with the rays of the moon.

At midday, put the pots in the sun until the decline of its force in order to desiccate the matter. If you see the earth become dry, give it a moderate amount of new urine. Continue this set of operations each night until the last quarter. During the entire morning it is necessary to let the earth digest the spirit, without evaporating this one badly by the way, and not drying it until the afternoon.

This work takes approximately 16 days. The remainder of the month, i.e. between the last quarter, the new moon, and the 1st quarter, the moon is not visible at night. You will devote this time to another kind of operation. The contents of each pot will be gently heated in the open air, with heat similar to that of boiling water while stirring continuously with a spatula. Then, one or two hours before the end of the night, expose it to the dew of the morning, and at midday for three hours desiccate it in the sun, and so on to the first following quarter. This cycle of operations will be repeated all summer, from March to October you can carry out seven or eight similar cycles. Keep it from the rain; it would not necessarily ruin the matter but it would delay you much by obliging you to desiccate gently; youwould waste time and the benefit of the exposures. Then comes the work comes of winter. You now have the seed of the father, the sun, and of the mother the moon, which were carried in the belly of the wind & fell into the nourishing earth. Gather all your earth in a large container stopped well for 6 weeks with a soft heat from 40 to 45 degrees of the Réaumur thermometer. The spirit will be fixed in the body by itself. Then calcine the earth in an open basin by stirring it up without stop to drive out the stinking (foul-smelling) spirits. Use a fire sparingly but strong enough to make smoke. When nothing smokes any more, carry out the extraction of salt.

You need for this a good reserve of dew distilled only once to remove it from dust, insects and debris which accompany it.

The earth will be washed with this dew at low temperature, the solution filtered, evaporated with tepid to film, crystallized & dried. Rewash the residue so that nothing is lost. This salt is very impure, a calcination with moderate fire blackens it. One second lixivation followed by filtering on Joseph paper and recrystallization will return it more clearly. By reiterating 3 or 4 times this continuation of purification you will have a quite white niter salt which does not blacken any more with the calcination. Such will be the purity of philosophical niter, such will be the purity of the dissolution of the body when you do the second work which you know well, as I could judge some by our conversations, the day of our walk at the edge of the Moselle. This niter alone can give the soli-lunar azoth to the metallic body which was deprived of it by leaving the nourishing mine. It only transcends the subtle virtue of the sun and the moon of which it was impregnated during its preparation. Ordinary salpetre that one manufactures in the saltpeter manufacturing plants truly contains a tiny fraction of it, but to a degree so small that one nose can manage to end to make him animate the incipient metal.
If you reflect, you will see that in the artificial saltpeter manufacturing plants one employs lumps of plaster coming from the demolition of the old cattle sheds, impregnated with the urine of cattle, whose nitrogen nourishes the nitrogen of the air to which one exposes the lumps of plaster during two or three years before washing them. The rain and the sun operate bad weather randomly, fixing only very little the astral virtue in it. While our practice which does nothing but follow nature avoiding the unfavourable circumstances and benefitting from the favorable ones. I have the hope that the next year you will have been able to make a good dissolution of your metallic body by helping you with these details.

Another thing. The matter that I saw in your laboratory comes from the Vosges. It is not bad quality, but its defect is that it contains much disseminated quartz particles, whichmakes crushing them difficult. That which I employ comes from Huelgoat in Brittany. It is perfect because it presents approximately brilliant square crystals hardly soiled earth at the outside. After washing one can crush it so finely that one could paint some. If you wish it I will forward some to you. The character which will immediately make you judge kindness of this mineral is its weight. Weighed in water it should lose only 13 percent of its weight, if it loses it more is it is earthy. It always contains small quantities of silver & gold in the process of growth. These metals which are still in a seminal state in this mine awake in the noncorrosive nitrous bath if it itself is animated & animating. You know the turn of hand which makes it possible to make dissolution. Do not hasten it. And apply to understand the invaluable lesson of the chapter Praeludium Prosimetricum du Chymica Vanus of which we so lengthily conversed last year. In spite of its apparent darkness it contains profound sights. And to confirm to you in the clear comprehension of your company, meditate by carefully examining the terms the 2nd paragraph of Memoriale which clots the book, where one reads: Nam dum Rex in sua est reductus principia, sulphurque sive animated solis in promptu, debet per familiarem istum absque Philosophicum-Spiritum ea amiabiliter absque strepitu seu adustione in oleum resolvi etc. Allow me to suggest to you this precaution: The exposure of the pots containing the absorbing white earth would be preferably made on the terrace where one accede only by your cabinet, which would draw aside the curiosity or the awkwardness of your servants. At this height the dew is less abundant than on the meadow, but sufficient to impregnate the earth of its spirit. On the contrary, it would be expedient to collect on the meadow the necessary quantity of dew for the purifications of the salt. This gathering is tiresome but easy & rustic. I noticed that it settles some much in the small valley where there is the mill. If you carry out dissolutions and washings of the earth with exactitude, it will be enough for eight pints of dew in all; without you to tire more.

You have time to reflect on all that from now until March-April. If some difficulty comes to your spirit by then, make me aware of your uncertainty and I will try to raise your doubts. I finish, Mister and Friend, while asking you to present my homages to Mrs Magain & by ensuring you of my devotion.

October 2, 1862 A.L. de Gerbant
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Note: The above appears to be a better translation of the French text posted by teofrast40 earlier in this thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1725-Cyliani&p=10845#post10845).

Andro
11-08-2014, 07:11 PM
Cyliani was lead to a TEMPLE which CONTAINED TWO CRYSTAL VASES.

One vase holds the universal spirit, the other holds the two matters.

Going back to Cyliani, it's not exactly two matters, but only one (androgynous) matter, containing the two "metallic" natures, or the two "Central Fires" (Sol & Luna, the two mountains, etc...)

This "double" matter is similar (as St. Didier also points out) to the nature of calx/lime, but this doesn't necessarily need to be taken as common lime.

This matter is the Philosophical Earth, or the "hidden"/"inner"/"essential" (dormant) Fire.

Those who can not attain to it, are often advised to resort to the volatilization of Tartar instead.

Just my 2▲ :)