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Salazius
11-23-2010, 09:37 AM
Why transmutation is not a valid test for the Philsopher Stone ?

In Hermetism there is the science of Archemy, that deals partly with the transmutatory matters, and "particulars" able to make sometime, powerful (more or less) transmutation powders, looking like a Powder from a Stone, and making the same effect on lead or any metal (and making of gold a red glass, etc).

Now, gold is said to be different after a transmutation by a Stone (harder, not attacked by acids...). But one can perfectly change the nature of a metal by adding too much of this or that, and to make it very hard or brittle or glowing red instead of green while melted. Depending of the "cooking" !

So, in this case, there is only the very high potential of transmutation of a tiny peice of Powder, from a Stone that could possibly make the difference, but how can we be sure that it is safe as a medicine ?
Sometime a Stone cannot transmute by itself, you need to know Archemy in order to make it a Powder (sometime it is not the case). It can perfectly fail the transmutation, and being a Stone.

Why making a test of transmutation if we seek a spiritual and physical remedy ? In this case, why don't we try the Stone upon an old and ill animal ? Making a healing, and a regeneration maybe. This could be a proof. A real proof. Not like a transmutation made with Archemical procedures with a Stone. And a metal do not die or present illness after being exposed to a high level of toxic material. How to be sure it is safe ? (Of course, one can use homeopathy also).

It is said that the Stone makes an evolution. Yes of course, as a remedy, it makes things perfect. But an animal regenerated will not be transform as a human baby, and a nettle will not transform in a rose tree. There is not change in the form, only in the quality, it is not a trans-formation, it is a mutation.

Salazius

horticult
11-23-2010, 01:34 PM
Well, IMO as alchemy is science and the stone is first created "in mind/in spirit", there is no need for master for any test.
& as I read somewhere L /alch. Au/ is more malleable and finer.

Well, according to animals, occured to me a funny idea, which I would rather not post.

Aleilius
11-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Valid tests for the philosopher's stone is something that I've been trying to point out for a while. If we do not seek to test an unknown material, we'll never be able to completely ascertain the true nature, and limits of the material at hand (whether it be an archemical powder, alchemical stone, etc).

I do believe transmutation should be used as one of the verdicts, but it should not be the end all verdict. The stone must also be able to heal/regenerate a life-form, and to extend life. Testing with old, or sick animals is one way to do it, but it might not be so ethical. Another test is to determine if the stone being tested has the ability to drastically increase plant growth (i.e. the growing of a seed, to full plant/vegetable, in hours/minutes).

Seth-Ra
11-23-2010, 08:06 PM
When it is made within self, as it is made outside self, you will know it without having to waste the valuable outward substance by tests upon tests. One or two grains taken and you'll have any and all proof you could want. ;)



~Seth-Ra

horticult
11-24-2010, 12:54 AM
Would somebody quote some classic master about some "psychic" or enlightening effects of stone? IMHO thats only logical myth, probably true, but not mentioned. Or its effect in hours on vegs? /I know only John French´s quickened salad from dung & moss ;-) /.

Salazius
11-24-2010, 03:01 PM
Hi,

One can try on plants, or even metals, in wet or dry ways, but in order to know if it is the True Stone, and if it is safe for a human body, or we can make an homeopathic dilution or for higher dosages, with a fly or any other little beast of short life (a fly live three days sometime, if it last a lot more then ... the test is valid for life extension).
Ethical, probably, but we don't make vivisection here, and we are not crual at all. The game is not to congeal the blood of the beast or to make it disappear into Light.

Plants can be of course a good tests, but is it also ethical in this case, after all they also 'live'. Or we take a dead plant, an resurect it... And a plant can resist a cyanid compound, not an animal.
Or maybe one have to make some complete tests of chemistry, but the "life level" will not be found, and maybe some "exotic" matter cannot be found too.

Some archemical process, having colours etc, are sometime for the white made with arsenic... it will of course transmute lead to silver. But it is surely not a medicine for humans.

Horticult, I know no masters that speak about that, but Flamel speak about making flourish in a night a apple tree.

Alchemy is one of the science where most people wander for years, and when they acheive something, they can be wrong, or maybe be right (you have the same chance to win in lottery), we have to know that transmutation is not a valid test at all.

SHD

Aleilius
11-24-2010, 08:25 PM
Well summed up guys. Transmutation is definitely not an end-all test for the Stone, but it should be one of the tests used accompanied with other tests. Heck, if it doesn't transmute, then it's not even a stone, or an archemical powder!

For a few months now I've been on this kick of trying to get others to stop readily coming to the conclusion that anything they concoct is a stone, or forbid, THE Stone.

Frater IA
12-19-2010, 08:43 AM
Ok, sorry to jump in here with noob questions, but I'd much rather get it from you all than from wikipedia (because wiki is always 100% correct and unbiased!)

-Philosopher's Stone, one of two ultimate creations an alchemist can make, other being the Elixer of Life? Am I correct, or way off the beaten path need to read alot more?

-If one thought they made a stone of great ability, whether it be the absolute most perfect stone, or 99.999999% perfect, would you not want to test it in many ways?

-Is the Philosopher's Stone specifically made out of one exact product or group of products and method, or could it be said that the absolute perfection of any substance through perfect method could potentially yield a stone of great ability?

Please catch me up to speed.
770

Salazius
12-19-2010, 10:06 AM
-Philosopher's Stone, one of two ultimate creations an alchemist can make, other being the Elixer of Life? Am I correct, or way off the beaten path need to read alot more?

-If one thought they made a stone of great ability, whether it be the absolute most perfect stone, or 99.999999% perfect, would you not want to test it in many ways?

-Is the Philosopher's Stone specifically made out of one exact product or group of products and method, or could it be said that the absolute perfection of any substance through perfect method could potentially yield a stone of great ability?


1. The Elixir is said to be made out of the Stone. (Was it what you asked ?)
2. You can do what you want.
3. Both. Depending what you seek, to have or do.

:) Just my "now" vision as always.

Frater IA
12-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Thank you, Salazius. Yes, that's a great answer.

Aleilius
12-20-2010, 04:26 AM
-Philosopher's Stone, one of two ultimate creations an alchemist can make, other being the Elixer of Life? Am I correct, or way off the beaten path need to read alot more?

Alchemists are the Masters of Nature, and thus should be able to produce anything one needs. There's the Philosopher's Stone, the Philosophic Stone, the Elixir of Life, the Powder of Projection, the Aurum Potable, etc. Some would say these all hearken to the same thing, but others would disagree & say they're different entities.


-If one thought they made a stone of great ability, whether it be the absolute most perfect stone, or 99.999999% perfect, would you not want to test it in many ways?
Yes, test it with all possible methods, and then test some more! Find the strength, the limits, etc. Confirmation is a good thing! I don't like whole: "if I test it then I doubt it'll hold up, and I'll have to admit it's not the Stone." I suppose partially it's rooted in fear of false success.



-Is the Philosopher's Stone specifically made out of one exact product or group of products and method, or could it be said that the absolute perfection of any substance through perfect method could potentially yield a stone of great ability?

This is a tough question, and cannot readily be answered. This is where philosophy takes over for the most part. Those that know the truth of this only know it because they've performed the work, tested the product, and confirmed it. Otherwise it might just be an issue of personal beliefs & speculation.

Frater IA
12-20-2010, 04:46 AM
Also awesome answers, Aleilus!!! Thank you very much for recieving my neophyte type questions. ;)

Salazius
12-20-2010, 11:22 AM
These questions are very important.

There is no such thing as neophyte questions in Alchemy IMO.

vega33
12-20-2010, 08:32 PM
While transmutation may not be a "test" for the Stone, I would suggest that transmutations are a good subject to study for the student of alchemy, even if they do not directly correlate with many of the classical texts. The reason being that they relate to the growth of things, and they often involve natural or dynamic systems, which may teach us to look at what we are meant to be doing in the lab through different eyes.

In the work of Ohsawa for instance, sodium was excited to a plasmic state by continuous electrical arcs in a vacuum, and then a molar amount of oxygen at normal temperature was introduced. Potassium was created in the process. This process was described in Adam McClean's Hermetic journal quite some time ago and is freely available on the web now in various forms. According to this paper (http://www.docgeorge.com/images/PDF/nuclear%20transmutations%20inside%20the%20living%2 0cell.pdf) by Pappas, a similar process may take place within the human cell. The same criterion are required here: electromagnetic excitation of at least one of the matters (the agent) and the introduction of a matter to be transformed (the patient). In the case of the human cell, the excitation is usually provided by the release of energy through activity (nervous or otherwise), examples would be physical activity (release of energy from Mg-ATP complex), heat, fever, etc.

The work of Ighina (here (http://www.rexresearch.com/ighina/ighina.htm) for example) also fits into this paradigm -- he indicated transmutation of atoms occurred when a materia reached a specific frequency of oscillation. His laws:

1) The light atoms, when they excite the observed atoms, give part of their motion to the latter.

2) The observed atoms absorb part of the motion of the light atoms to speed up theirs.

3) In order to excite an atom, you need it to get in touch with an atom of higher motion; the atom with the highest motion will attract the one with the lowest motion.

4) The higher the atoms motion, the more luminous it will be and vice-versa.

Now, the ones with a higher frequency we may perhaps say attract the others due to the harmonies between the two frequencies (eg ratio). For instance, by bombarding the sodium with electrical arcs to excite it to a plasmic state, introduction of the oxygen causes an equalization of potential between some of the oxygen introduced and the excited sodium, raising the oscillation of the oxygen material to a particular level co-incident with that of the lessening excitation of the sodium: bingo! transmutation, according to Ighina's theory.

In yet another different example of transmutation, Schauberger had a vision of fructigens (a fatty, oleaginous, nourishing material containing a storehouse of energy) interacting with oxygenes (active energies emanating from material due to excitation of matter by the sun). Incidentally, Schauberger and Ighina were both big fans of the Emerald Tablet. Schauberger's vision emphasized the importance of the carbones and fructigenic ethericities, because he understood that people well enough comprehended the idea of fire or excitation but did not comprehend the concept of the fuel and its generation. This concept is reflected today in the idea that proper nutrition is essential for those attempting to raise their level of consciousness/vibration through spiritual practices, since the fire is available for free, but the materia must first of needs be obtained and prepared, even though the fire performs most of the work on the materia.

This may seem like a bit of a digression, but what I am trying to point out here is that certain key important concepts apropos to Alchemy have been discussed and described in plain language by several "heretical" scientists, which can enlighten us on what is meant for instance by the "life preserving moisture" which the Rosicrucians and alchemists speak of with such reverence, as well as the mechanisms of evolution of matter (especially where Ighina and Ohsawa meet). For instance, armed with this information we may speculate on what effect the earth's magnetic field has on the process of the evolution of metals (such as where Sendivogius uses the concept of magnetism so prevalently, as does Philalethes in places), and how this might be improved. By properly understanding the growth process we can save a lot of mistakes in the lab working on futile materials or methods. This is in fact what I have endeavored to do for the last 12 years or so, so that when a lab is available or when it comes time to create the lab, we do not waste money on vain materials, and problems of the current world environment (where terrorism, meth labs, fertilizer bombs and so on are used as an excuse to reduce our freedom and liberty towards scientific experimentation and discovery) can be resolved through various ingenious methods.

I cannot stress enough the importance of understanding the life principle, and comprehending "this absence where all presence reigns" (to quote Fulcanelli). Comprehending this process of putrefaction in nature where all potentials become equalized and locked, only to be woken again by some kind of force to unbalance the equation such as sunlight or a contaminant. It has certainly taught me a lot.

horticult
12-20-2010, 11:00 PM
I am rather puzzled - the result of metal transmutation is yellow cadaver.

Aleilius
12-21-2010, 01:47 AM
I am rather puzzled - the result of metal transmutation is yellow cadaver.
Doesn't have to be a yellow cadavar. Could be a white cadaver. The sol & luna made via transmutation is more noble than vulgar sol & luna. They are not just "dead bodies," but seem to be the opposite.

Aleilius
12-21-2010, 01:49 AM
While transmutation may not be a "test" for the Stone, I would suggest that transmutations are a good subject to study for the student of alchemy, even if they do not directly correlate with many of the classical texts. The reason being that they relate to the growth of things, and they often involve natural or dynamic systems, which may teach us to look at what we are meant to be doing in the lab through different eyes.

In the work of Ohsawa for instance, sodium was excited to a plasmic state by continuous electrical arcs in a vacuum, and then a molar amount of oxygen at normal temperature was introduced. Potassium was created in the process. This process was described in Adam McClean's Hermetic journal quite some time ago and is freely available on the web now in various forms. According to this paper (http://www.docgeorge.com/images/PDF/nuclear%20transmutations%20inside%20the%20living%2 0cell.pdf) by Pappas, a similar process may take place within the human cell. The same criterion are required here: electromagnetic excitation of at least one of the matters (the agent) and the introduction of a matter to be transformed (the patient). In the case of the human cell, the excitation is usually provided by the release of energy through activity (nervous or otherwise), examples would be physical activity (release of energy from Mg-ATP complex), heat, fever, etc.

The work of Ighina (here (http://www.rexresearch.com/ighina/ighina.htm) for example) also fits into this paradigm -- he indicated transmutation of atoms occurred when a materia reached a specific frequency of oscillation. His laws:


Now, the ones with a higher frequency we may perhaps say attract the others due to the harmonies between the two frequencies (eg ratio). For instance, by bombarding the sodium with electrical arcs to excite it to a plasmic state, introduction of the oxygen causes an equalization of potential between some of the oxygen introduced and the excited sodium, raising the oscillation of the oxygen material to a particular level co-incident with that of the lessening excitation of the sodium: bingo! transmutation, according to Ighina's theory.

In yet another different example of transmutation, Schauberger had a vision of fructigens (a fatty, oleaginous, nourishing material containing a storehouse of energy) interacting with oxygenes (active energies emanating from material due to excitation of matter by the sun). Incidentally, Schauberger and Ighina were both big fans of the Emerald Tablet. Schauberger's vision emphasized the importance of the carbones and fructigenic ethericities, because he understood that people well enough comprehended the idea of fire or excitation but did not comprehend the concept of the fuel and its generation. This concept is reflected today in the idea that proper nutrition is essential for those attempting to raise their level of consciousness/vibration through spiritual practices, since the fire is available for free, but the materia must first of needs be obtained and prepared, even though the fire performs most of the work on the materia.

This may seem like a bit of a digression, but what I am trying to point out here is that certain key important concepts apropos to Alchemy have been discussed and described in plain language by several "heretical" scientists, which can enlighten us on what is meant for instance by the "life preserving moisture" which the Rosicrucians and alchemists speak of with such reverence, as well as the mechanisms of evolution of matter (especially where Ighina and Ohsawa meet). For instance, armed with this information we may speculate on what effect the earth's magnetic field has on the process of the evolution of metals (such as where Sendivogius uses the concept of magnetism so prevalently, as does Philalethes in places), and how this might be improved. By properly understanding the growth process we can save a lot of mistakes in the lab working on futile materials or methods. This is in fact what I have endeavored to do for the last 12 years or so, so that when a lab is available or when it comes time to create the lab, we do not waste money on vain materials, and problems of the current world environment (where terrorism, meth labs, fertilizer bombs and so on are used as an excuse to reduce our freedom and liberty towards scientific experimentation and discovery) can be resolved through various ingenious methods.

I cannot stress enough the importance of understanding the life principle, and comprehending "this absence where all presence reigns" (to quote Fulcanelli). Comprehending this process of putrefaction in nature where all potentials become equalized and locked, only to be woken again by some kind of force to unbalance the equation such as sunlight or a contaminant. It has certainly taught me a lot.

Another very well thought out post vega33! Always love hearing what you have to say. Double kudos on this one!

Andro
12-21-2010, 10:31 AM
This concept is reflected today in the idea that proper nutrition is essential for those attempting to raise their level of consciousness/vibration through spiritual practices, since the fire is available for free, but the materia must first of needs be obtained and prepared, even though the fire performs most of the work on the materia.

IMO nutrition is not only limited to food intake, but also in everything else we 'consume' - Art, Relationships, Environment (social and geographical), etc... All these, I also view as 'nutrition'...


[...]so that when a lab is available or when a lab is available or when it comes time to create the lab, we do not waste money on vain materials, and problems of the current world environment (where terrorism, meth labs, fertilizer bombs and so on are used as an excuse to reduce our freedom and liberty towards scientific experimentation and discovery) can be resolved through various ingenious methods.

What I have found out is that the more The Art is understood, the less the working environment will look like a classical laboratory. Most of my labware is now off-duty and on decorative display...
However, The Work is still quite expensive, since there is rent to pay, clothes and food to buy (or grow), bills to pay as well... but these are the really significant expenses of The Work...
(Unless of course one is a 'rich kid' from birth or just got some juicy inheritance :))


I cannot stress enough the importance of understanding the life principle, and comprehending "this absence where all presence reigns" (to quote Fulcanelli).
Comprehending this process of putrefaction in nature where all potentials become equalized and locked, only to be woken again by some kind of force to unbalance the equation such as sunlight or a contaminant.
It has certainly taught me a lot.

How very true! But it is Nature who un-balances the equation by contaminants... Alchemists should create this un-balance WITHOUT contamination (or with as little as possible :))

Aunt Clair
04-19-2011, 11:46 PM
Imho;

The purpose of the Opus Minus or Lunar work is to be able to control the hermetic elements in order to attain specific realms and the projection of specific aspects of self . Control of the human energy body electromagnetic state is learnt by becoming all moon, by splitting or dumping or purging the electric from the magnetic albeit for a time to use a solely lunar and magnetic body ; to project past the ring past not or past the window on the edge of the universe, et cetera. After the Work of the Sun is completed the ongoing works of the moon manifest akasha.

The purpose of the Magnum Opus or Solar work is to meet the Higher Self to project at will through the solar plexus to have K& C with the HGA and to bring fire to the body of the magician who is bipolar so that they enter a tetrapolar state; moving from a red right blue left body to a four hermetic limbed body
red + yellow sun= orange arm
blue + yellow sun = green leg
and the transmutation that is sought is the healing of the Guardian Demon within by use of the Philosopher Stone. Which is not a powder that cures a dying plant but is a power which transmutes the soul to become everlasting in its obedience to Godhead, not perfect still sinning still human but it manifests an angel which projects from the body and heals and inspires and does the glorious work while we continue with the day to day operations of the physical world of illusions. After the ET is completed the ongoing works of the sun include manifestation of a golden sun energy.

The Purpose of the Emerald Tablet is to begin to create the immortal light body or Greater Soul.It is not to prolong the life of a plant but it can replace life in itself while the body is still warm and when damage has not been too great. But its purpose is to become a Mahatma , a cosmic teaching spirit who transcends time and can help serve humanity and Godhead by their light. At the completion of the Emerald Tablet the magician learns that the path is infinite and eternal and that we have so much more to learn. The ET allows the magician to manifest the emerald air energy which is the element of ascension and affords the manifestation of the supernal emerald energy centre and the projection of the Guardian Angel within. After the ET comes a Ruby Obelisk and the path continues ad infinitum so that the magician builds up the light quotient and potential in subsequent and concurrent lives. Ongoing emerald works afford the manifestation of the Arch Angel within. Et cetera...

The tests then for transmutation of the Philosopher Stones is the completion of the Emerald Tablet as evidenced by ;
i. Projection of the Guardian Demon from the EarthStone or Belly core between the orange and red charkras; the transmuted GD will be a mirror of the GA with the face of the magician upon them. Previous to transmutation a beast faced horned , clawed, batwinged and tailed monster will appear wearing the face of the magician. Transmutation occurs through love and forgiveness and the healing elemental energy of the emerald air and ruby earth mined from the soul which cannot be found until the magician raises their light and sound vibration.

ii. the energy body will clairvoyantly colour up for a time as emerald green from the shoulders to the hips including the forearms and thighs of the magician after this colouring increases in vibration it will change again though but the stages can be noted to occur in a predictable continuum

iii. the heart of the magician will become clairvoyantly 8 chambered with the colours of ;
aqua, rose, amber, purple
chartreuse, salmon, orange, indigo

iv.Until the ET is completed there will not be any evidence of emerald green in the energy body but afterwards ;
*one of the larger supernal energy centres which will manifest is emerald green.
*the tiny sepiroth are clairvoyantly visible and Netzach on the left hip will change to an emerald green
*the big toe on the left foot will become emerald green on its first layer of energy
*the index finger or Finger of John on the right hand will become emerald green on its secondary layer of energy