PDA

View Full Version : Parmenides: Is 'NOTHING' real?



Andro
11-24-2010, 12:51 PM
This could make for an interesting discussion.

We could start by reading the Poem (http://www.parmenides.com/about_parmenides/ParmenidesPoem.html?page=12) and see where it takes us (assuming there is anywhere to 'go' :)).

Albion
11-24-2010, 01:42 PM
"To turn to the essentials: the core of the elenchos process as shown to Parmenides by the goddess was that men and women ‘know nothing’. The heart of Socrates’ message, the unwavering purpose of his elenchos, was to show people that they ‘know nothing’. For both of them, there was no hope of real knowledge without first accepting and understanding this.

Socrates’ elenchos took the very particular form of making the people he talked to contradict themselves: of revealing that in spite of their apparent knowledge, they were completely at odds with themselves. For Parmenides, exposing the human condition for what it is meant showing that we are totally at odds with ourselves — living, walking self-contradictions — and that all our intelligence and best intentions only make matters worse.

For both of them, arriving at the knowledge of knowing nothing meant confronting utter helplessness. It involved having your whole being turned upside down until you no longer knew if you were coming or going. Socrates used to talk about aporia or ‘pathlessness’, about watching every familiar sense of direction vanish. But later philosophers managed, gradually and very cleverly, to shift this word aporia away from any sense of personal vulnerability or helplessness so that it ended up becoming a technical term for the formal practice of proposing specific solutions to particular problems.

All that was at stake now was how smart one was. One’s fundamental intelligence was never open to doubt. One’s being was no longer on the line. Ironically, the only signs of the elenchos process being kept alive in its intensity and terrible reality come not from Greece but from Egypt — from the Hermetic groups who lived there. The two founding fathers of philosophy had offered something incalculably valuable: the chance for self transformation. But in the West people just threw the opportunity to the dogs. (R 154–155)

And yet there is no secret about the fact that originally the word ‘philosophy’ meant love of wisdom. Now it has just come to mean the love of endlessly talking and arguing about the love of wisdom — which is a complete waste of time. Philosophy is a travesty of what it once was, no longer a path to wisdom but a defense against it. There is only one way to wisdom: by facing the fact that we know nothing and letting our reasoning be torn apart. Then reality is what is left behind." (R 156)
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Excerpt from “The Spiritual Tradition at the Roots of Western Civilization” -which is itself a compilation of excerpts from In the Dark Places of Wisdom and Reality by Peter Kingsley http://www.peterkingsley.org/cw3/Admin/images/SpiritualTradition.pdf

solomon levi
11-24-2010, 06:00 PM
Nice Albion!
I hadn't looked at Socrates quite that way before.
But it is very familiar to me.
I always practice holding no fixed beliefs.
When i think I know something, I switch it around, see the opposite, and think of as many ways as I can
imagine it can be seen - and knowing I can't prove any to be absolutely true, they all are dissolved in this Mercury/Chaos.
I originally got the idea from Castaneda and keeping the assemblage point fluid. And Byron Katie rediscovered this as "The Work":
http://www.thework.com/downloads/little_book/English_LB.pdf

solomon levi
11-24-2010, 06:06 PM
This could make for an interesting discussion.

We could start by reading the Poem (http://www.parmenides.com/about_parmenides/ParmenidesPoem.html?page=12) and see where it takes us (assuming there is anywhere to 'go' :)).

Hi Androgynus!
Hmmm. I didn't get the "is 'nothing' real" vibe from the poem.
I'm not sure what to make of it. Reminds me of Robert Monroe and the aperture.

What did you get from the poem?

Andro
11-24-2010, 07:53 PM
I didn't get the "is 'nothing' real" vibe from the poem.
I'm not sure what to make of it.

Quoth Parmenides:


Come now, I will tell you - and bring away my story safely when you have heard it - the only ways of inquiry there are to think:

The One, that it is and that it is not possible for it not to be, is the path of Persuasion (for it attends upon Truth).

The Other, that it is not and that it is necessary for it not to be, this I point out to you to be a path completely unlearnable, for neither may you know that which is not (for it is not to be accomplished) nor may you declare it.

In fact, Parmenides poses the issue reflected in the title of this thread. His occult language is simply adorable :)

Andro
11-24-2010, 08:13 PM
Quoth Androgynus:


We didn't start the fire. Noone did. We just fuck forward and pass it on and along. There is no point of origin.
The week of Genesis doesn't start with a Sabbath, but ends with one. Maybe an everlasting one, since there is no mention of another Sunday/first day.

Can we STOP the fire? Once again, is there Rest? Is NOTHING real?

Quoth Parmenides:


You shall know the nature of the Aether and all the signs in the Aether,
And the destructive deeds of the shining sun's pure torch and whence they came to be,
And you shall learn the wandering deeds of the round-faced moon and its nature, and you shall know also the surrounding heaven,
From what it grew, and also how Necessity guiding it fettered it to hold the limits of the stars.

Albion
11-25-2010, 01:57 AM
"Nothing" - as an idea - is something.

And one can have experience beyond ideas - but that experience is also something.

As for those who claim to have experienced "the void" - well, their awareness was "there" even if cognition of particulars wasn't. And awareness is, in a sense, something - even though it may not in itself be an "object" of awareness. Although core awareness being aware of awareness is likely the basis for subject/object perception. In which case, there was still a core of awareness aware of awareness - and aware of the relative absense of "things" and "others." Exalted state or spiritual psychosis?

And, I wonder... can they ever know for certain that they even were that awareness - or whether it was being lent to them, from a yet deeper level -while they explored that particular state.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________

Seth-Ra
11-25-2010, 02:54 AM
I always practice holding no fixed beliefs.
When i think I know something, I switch it around, see the opposite, and think of as many ways as I can
imagine it can be seen - and knowing I can't prove any to be absolutely true, they all are dissolved in this Mercury/Chaos.

Hey Sol', thats an interesting way of doing things - it reminds me of the "Chaos Magicians" - they do things like that too.
Seeing all sides through to conclusion (as far as you can) and letting it all stay floating around (or "merging/sinking" into the "mercury of the mind" per se) as time and you move forward. Very good comparison also of it all as a "Mercury/Chaos" - and like Mercury, it can drive you insane. lol
Infact i was cleaning up the kitchen one night, contemplating an argument in my head, multiple sides at once (Gemini habit? :D ) and something "clicked" as i realized "I believe in everything, and nothing."... i think i felt my head crack, and then began to laugh hysterically. Good times... good times... :D



~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
11-25-2010, 08:37 AM
:) Seth-Ra, yeah, that's it exactly.
Being split in two again reminds me of Castaneda when Don Juan and Don Genaro
were each whispering in his ears and then he "cracked".
Hysterical laughter is great! Also laughing and crying at the same time which I did last week
when i wrote the "Quest-ions" post on my blog.
Feels very cathartic. Good times indeed!

Thanks Androgynus. I see it a bit more.
Honestly the language was hard for me to pierce. I kept jumping from one translation to the other also.
I'll try again intending to be more analogical.


Hi Albion!
I haven't defined what the Void is very well. I'm guilty of using the term for multiple concepts.
Objectively, I'd say the Void is the unmanifest, and agree with you that nothing manifest can ever go there.
In this sense the Void is the First Being, or Unbeing, pre-existing all else.

The Void that I was taught to go to is perhaps a shadow of the true Void.
I really can't say "where" it is relative to other things.
I can tell you that it is something like space, like looking at the midnight sky.
Depending on my size (the size of my awareness), it appears empty at times, at other times
filled with "stars" which i can travel to, and when i arrive they are not stars at all -
sometimes they are thoughts, sometimes worlds, some are 'futures' and some are 'pasts',
some seem to have objective reality and some are subjective creations...

At times i associate a vacuum with the Void, but i can't say if that is objectively true.
Sometimes i like to intend it that way to intend a magnetic virtue which can be helpful at times.

What I can say about the objective Void is that it became aware of itself and that movement was like
a turning inwards and the immediate manifestation/contraction of that was light/consciousness/spirit.
Everything, every level, is similarly the result of the previous levels turning inward self-awareness,
contraction-expansion, enfoldment-unfoldment, a dream within a dream within a dream within a.......

Albion
11-25-2010, 03:32 PM
An infant may not initially be able to even distinguish “self” from “other,” nevertheless it soon learns to. The infant has not yet developed language ability but is physically hardwired to acquire it. While learning descriptive vocabulary, gradually, more complex and abstract concepts are acquired.

One can view this positively and say that the child is learning how to navigate in the world, to interact with and learn from others, and to consider his surroundings as more than a mere extension of itself.

And then, as an adult, the individual can look back and realize the extent to which they had been programmed to conform to “consensus reality” in which case certain negative aspects of the process are brought to the fore. But this too is a stage wherein the individual is becoming even more individualized as they learn to get a hold of their entire mapmaking process.

The distinction of “things” arises with language.

Language use is a kind of map-making activity.

Maps are never the territory and so, in some sense, are of a different order [Maps are generalizations of a specific territory].

A good explorer realizes that their maps are only always approximations to the territory and so is ever willing to improve, upgrade, to amend their maps as their ongoing interaction with the territory brings more refined awareness to light.

We all carry within us, a living internal model of reality.

The model can be hobbling and restrictive, serving as a temporarily comforting prison.

Or, the model can be open-ended enough to allow for ongoing modification. Perhaps elements of ambiguity are allowed either at or close to the core, the limitations of language are not forgotten, and the heart is allowed to rule over the mind. Then the value and usefulness of language, of words, of distinctions, of the consideration of “things” enjoys its proper working ambit.

The refinement of understanding might seem pointless in light of the fact that language can only ever approximate reality and is left rather impotent in the face of paradox and that which is beyond dichotomy.

But I feel there is, nevertheless, a great value in making proper distinctions, in language, in the ability to conceptualize, and in the activity of refining one’s maps and models.

One can come to realize that “things” as understood may not be absolute - and yet can value working with the incredible storehouse of order that human experience & imagination has brought forth in the development of language and thought - however lacking it might yet be in many respects - and this is far and away in a better place than the infant who cannot yet distinguish “things.”

A shot of Zen is great for clearing away and reframing one’s accumulated programming - reminding one of the local mind’s inherent limitations. But I feel there is ever a place for cartography and for discerning relevant distinctions. Perhaps it’s more an Art than a Science.

Language implies a "yes" [an affirmation, a presence] at the core. Negation is a peripheral activity.

A finger simply points to the Moon. Okay, we needn't complicate that. But a Telescope & Ephemeris contribute, respectively, a greater clarity of focus [with a finer grain of detail], and an expanded range of applicability.

The question “Is NOTHING Real” is, as it stands, initially, playfully ambiguous . This was a spin-off of one of its possible facets.

solomon levi
11-25-2010, 06:48 PM
In short - Nothing is Real, and something is unreal in the objective Void sense.
In other words, Permanence is Real, impermanence is unreal/ever-changing.
Probably Consciousness is also Permanent. I don't imagine the Void can ever un-self-aware Itself.
But who can say since that is the territory we can never approach - the Unknowable.
For us, Consciousness is probably as Real/Permanent as it gets.

Albion
11-25-2010, 08:19 PM
Hi Albion!
I haven't defined what the Void is very well. I'm guilty of using the term for multiple concepts.
Objectively, I'd say the Void is the unmanifest, and agree with you that nothing manifest can ever go there.
In this sense the Void is the First Being, or Unbeing, pre-existing all else.

The Void that I was taught to go to is perhaps a shadow of the true Void.
I really can't say "where" it is relative to other things.
I can tell you that it is something like space, like looking at the midnight sky.
Depending on my size (the size of my awareness), it appears empty at times, at other times
filled with "stars" which i can travel to, and when i arrive they are not stars at all -
sometimes they are thoughts, sometimes worlds, some are 'futures' and some are 'pasts',
some seem to have objective reality and some are subjective creations...

At times i associate a vacuum with the Void, but i can't say if that is objectively true.
Sometimes i like to intend it that way to intend a magnetic virtue which can be helpful at times.

What I can say about the objective Void is that it became aware of itself and that movement was like
a turning inwards and the immediate manifestation/contraction of that was light/consciousness/spirit.
Everything, every level, is similarly the result of the previous levels turning inward self-awareness,
contraction-expansion, enfoldment-unfoldment, a dream within a dream within a dream within a.......

Thank you for sharing passages from a possible book, possibly entitled:

"The So-Called Void: Reminiscences & Guidebook" - by Solomon Levi, Esq


Your observations & deductions: well gathered and expressed.

Your safe & sound return: encouraging.

You remind me that “potentia” is “something” which [I]is yet is “no[manifest]thing” as such.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

“Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not." -Epicurus

“Why should I fear the void? Where I am, the void is not. Where the void is, I am not.” -Albion

vega33
11-25-2010, 10:25 PM
This could make for an interesting discussion.

We could start by reading the Poem (http://www.parmenides.com/about_parmenides/ParmenidesPoem.html?page=12) and see where it takes us (assuming there is anywhere to 'go' :)).

One of the things Parmenides speaks about a lot (as does Empedocles) is mÍtis. Incidentally, this reminds us of MÍtis, the goddess of wisdom and cunning, who is referred to by Fulcanelli ever so briefly in his commentary on the Templars Baphomet (the baptism of Mete/Metis). It may be noted that Justice, aka Themis, is somewhat similar to the re-arranged Metis, ironic considering how lawyers must become skilled in cunning and the manipulation of words/persuasion.

Such cunning involves punning, "spinning a yarn", playing with words, taking us to the Cabala. It is perhaps no "accident" (except in the sense of a meeting of cadences), that Parmenides makes his journey to meet the goddess at the center of all things, in Hell, via horse and chariot (the horse being an animal sacred to Apollo, lord of riddles such as those the goddess spoke). Parmenides was a priest of Apollo. And metis, that "fluid awareness" necessary to pilot a vessel - a ship, for instance, or a chariot - an intense awareness that is fully present, is what is necessary to make the necessary linkups between words to understand the puns of the alchemists. It is worth noting that both Metis and Themis end their name with the episemon.

The Knights Templar continued this tradition of linkage with the sacred animal of Apollo. N'est ce pas?

Incidentally, it is also worth noting Empedocles discussion of human consciousness (Aphdrodite bound) and "the blood around the heart", which recalls Fulcanelli's revelation about the man with the mortar board on his head and the star of David over his heart. :) Too many connections to note all at once!

solomon levi
11-26-2010, 12:19 AM
You remind me that “potentia” is “something” which is yet is “no[manifest]thing” as such.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________


Yes! As one of my teachers would say, "(The Void is) One vast nothing materially, all things potentially."

Nibiru
11-26-2010, 06:42 AM
"Being split in two again reminds me of Castaneda when Don Juan and Don Genaro
were each whispering in his ears and then he "cracked"."
Hi Solomon I remember reading this but cant recall if it was from "The Teachings", "Tales of Power", or "Separate Reality"? I am a certified hypnotherapist and this is actually a quite powerful method of trance induction. Below are a couple video links to the modern day version of this technique known as the duel hypnotic induction:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmOb1b5cnIs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aEKbCaQmRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f1B_UqTXVU

Albion
11-26-2010, 01:36 PM
For continuity of reading, I cut & pasted each of the two English translations from:
http://www.parmenides.com/about_parmenides/ParmenidesPoem.html?page=12 into their respective renditions.
__________________________________________________ _______________________


“On Nature” Parmenides [translated by Richard D. McKirahan]

Fragment 1

1.1 The mares which carry me as far as my spirit ever aspired
1.2 were escorting me, when they brought me and proceeded along the renowned road
1.3 of the goddess, which brings a knowing mortal to all cities one by one.
1.4 On this path I was being brought, on it wise mares were bringing me,
1.5 straining the chariot, and maidens were guiding the way.

1.6 The axle in the center of the wheel was shrilling forth the bright sound of a musical pipe,
1.7 ablaze, for it was being driven forward by two rounded
1.8 wheels at either end, as the daughters of the Sun,
1.9 were hastening to escort after leaving the house of Night for the light,
1.10 having pushed back the veils from their heads with their hands.

1.11 There are the gates of the roads of Night and Day,
1.12 and a lintel and a stone threshold contain them.
1.13 High in the sky they are filled by huge doors
1.14 of which avenging Justice holds the keys that fit them.
1.15 The maidens beguiled her with soft words

1.16 and skillfully persuaded her to push back the bar for them
1.17 Quickly from the gates. They made
1.18 a gaping gap of the doors when they opened them,
1.19 swinging in turn in their sockets the bronze posts
1.20 fastened with bolts and rivets. There, straight through them then,

1.21 the maidens held the chariot and horses on the broad road.
1.22 And the goddess received me kindly, took my right hand in hers,
1.23 and addressed me with these words:
1.24 'Young man, accompanied by immortal charioteers,
1.25 who reach my house by the horses which bring you,

1.26 welcome - since it was not an evil destiny that sent you forth to travel
1.27 this road (for indeed it is far from the beaten path of humans),
1.28 but Right and justice. There is need for you to learn all things -
1.29 both the unshaken heart of persuasive Truth
1.30 and the opinions of mortals, in which there is no true reliance.
1.31 But nevertheless you will learn these too - that the things that appear
1.32 must genuinely be, being always, indeed, all things.

TRUTH - ALETHEIA

Fragment 2

2.1 Come now, I will tell you - and bring away my story safely when you have heard it -
2.2 the only ways of inquiry there are to think:
2.3 the One, that it is and that it is not possible for it not to be,
2.4 is the path of Persuasion (for it attends upon Truth),

2.5 the other, that it is not and that it is necessary for it not to be,
2.6 this I point out to you to be a path completely unlearnable,
2.7 for neither may you know that which is not (for it is not to be accomplished)
2.8 nor may you declare it.

Fragment 3

... For the same thing is for thinking and for being.

Fragment 4

4.1 But gaze upon things which although absent are securely present in thought.
4.2 Fore you will not cut off what is from clinging to what is,
4.3 neither being scattered everywhere in every way throughout the KOSMOS
4.4 nor being brought together.

Fragment 5

5.1 For me, where I am to begin from is the same
5.2 for to there I will come back again.

Fragment 6

6.1 That which is there to be spoken and thought of must be. For it is possible for it to be,
6.2 but not possible for nothing to be. I bid you consider this.
6.3 For I bar your way from this first way of inquiry,
6.4 but next from the way on which mortals, knowing nothing,
6.5 two-headed, wander. For helplessness in their
6.6 breasts guides their wandering mind. But they are carried on
6.7 equally deaf and blind, amazed, hordes without judgement,
6.8 from whom both to be and not to be are judged the same and
6.9 not the same, and the path of all is backward-turning.

Fragment 7

7.1 For in no way may this prevail, that things that are not, are.
7.2 But you, bar your thought from this way of inquiry,
7.3 and do not let habit born from much experience compel you along this way
7.4 to direct your sightless eye and sounding ear
7.5 and tongue, but judge by reason the heavily contested refutation
7.6 spoken by me.

Fragment 8

8.1 There is still left a single story
8.2 of a way, that it is. On this way there are signs
8.3 exceedingly many - that being ungenerated it is also imperishable,
8.4 whole and of a single kind and unshaken and complete.
8.5 Nor was it ever nor will it be, since it is now, all together,

8.6 one, continuous. For what birth will you seek for it ?
8.7 How and from where did it grow? I will not permit you to say
8.8 or to think from what is not; for it is not to be said or thought
8.9 that is not. What necessity would have stirred up
8.10 to grow later than earlier, beginning from nothing ?

8.11 Thus it must either fully be or not.
8.12 Nor will the force of conviction ever permit anything to come to be from what is not,
8.13 besides it. For this reason, Justice permitted it neither to come to be
8.14 nor to perish, relaxing her shackles,
8.15 but holds fast. But the decision about these matters lies in this:

8.16 it is or it is not. But it has been decided, as is necessary,
8.17 to let go the one way as unthinkable and nameless (for it is not a true
8.18 way) and that the other is and is real.
8.19 How could what is be in the future ? How could it come to be ?
8.20 For if it came into being, it is not, not if it is ever going to be

8.21 In this way, coming to be has been extinguished and destruction is unheard of.
8.22 Nor is it divided, since it all is alike;
8.23 nor is it any more in any way, which would keep it from holding together,
8.24 or any less, but it is all full of what is.
8.25 Therefore, it is all continuous, for what is draws near to what is.

8.26 But unchanging in the limits of great bonds,
8.27 It is, without start or finish, since coming to be and destruction
8.28 were banished far away and true conviction drove them off.
8.29 Remaining the same and by itself it lies
8.30 and so stays there fixed ; for mighty Necessity

8.31 holds the bonds of a limit, which pens it in all round,
8.32 since it is right for what is to be not incomplete ;
8.33 for it is not lacking ; if it were , it would lack everything.
8.34 Thinking and the thought that it is are the same.
8.35 For not without what is, in which it is expressed,

8.36 will you find thinking; for nothing else is either is or will be
8.37 except that which is, since Fate shackled it
8.38 to be whole and unchanging, wherefore it has been named all names
8.39 mortals have established, persuaded that they are true -
8.40 to come to be and to perish, to be and not ,

8.41 and to change place and alter bright color.
8.42 But since there is a furthest limit, it is complete
8.43 on all sides, like the bulk of a well-rounded ball,
8.44 evenly balanced in every way from the middle; for it must be not at all greater
8.45 or smaller here than there.

8.46 For neither what is not is - which would stop it from reaching
8.47 its like - nor what is is in such a way that there could be more of what is
8.48 here and less there, since it is all inviolate;
8.49 for equal to itself on all sides, it meets with its limits uniformly.

SEEMING - DOXA

8.50 At this point I stop for you my reliable account and thought
8.51 concerning Truth; from here on, learn mortal opinions,
8.52 listening to the deceitful ordering of my words.
8.53 For they made up their minds to name two forms,
8.54 of which it is not right to name one - in this they have gone astray -
8.55 and they distinguished things opposite in body, and established signs

8.56 apart from one another - for one, the aetherial fire of flame,
8.57 mild, very light, the same as itself in every direction,
8.58 but not the same as the other; but that other one, in itself
8.59 is opposite - dark night, a dense and heavy body.
8.60 I declare to you all the ordering as it appears,
8.61 so that no mortal opinion may ever overtake you.

Fragment 9

9.1 But since all things have been named light and night
9.2 and the things which accord with their powers have been assigned to these things and those,
9.3 all is full of light and obscure night together,
9.4 of both equally, since neither has no share.

Fragment 10

10.1 You shall know the nature of the aether and all the signs in the aether
10.2 and the destructive deeds of the shining sun's
10.3 pure torch and whence they came to be,
10.4 and you shall learn the wandering deeds of the round-faced moon
10.5 and its nature, and you shall know also the surrounding heaven,
10.6 from what it grew and now Necessity led and shackled it
10.7 to hold the limits of the stars.

Fragment 11

11.1 ... how earth and sun and moon
11.2 and the aether which is common to all and the Milky Way and
11.3 furthest Olympus and the hot force of the stars surged forth
11.4 to come to be.

Fragment 12

12.1 For the narrower were filled with unmixed fire.
12.2 The ones to them with night, but a due amount of fire is inserted among it,
12.3 and in the middle of these is the goddess who governs all things.
12.4 For she rules over hateful birth and union of all things,
12.5 sending the female to unite with male and in opposite fashion,
12.6 male to female.

Fragment 13

First of all gods she contrived Love.

Fragment 14

Night-shining foreign light wandering round earth.

Fragment 15

Always looking towards the rays of the sun.

Fragment 16

16.1 For as each person has a mixture of much-wandering limbs,
16.2 so is thought present to humans. For that which things -
16.3 the constitution of the limbs - is the same
16.4 in all humans and every one; for which is more is thought.

Fragment 17

boys on the right , girls on the left.

Fragment 18

18.1 When woman and man mix the seeds of Love,
18.2 The power which is formed in the veins out of different blood,
18.3 If it maintains proper proportion, produces well-formed bodies.
18.4 For if the powers, when the seeds are being mixed, fight
18.5 And do not constitute a unity in the body in which the mixture has taken
place, then cruelly
18.6 Will they torment the nascent sex with double seed.

Fragment 19

19.1 In this way, according to opinion, these things have grown
19.2 and now are
19.3 and afterwards after growing up will come to an end.
19.4 And upon them humans have established a name to mark each one.
__________________________________________________ ________

“On Nature” Parmenides [translated by Leonardo Taran]


1. 1 The mares which carry me, as far as ever my heart may desire,
1. 2 Were escorting me, when they brought and placed me on the resounding road
1. 3 Of the goddess, which carries through all places the man who knows.
1. 4 On it I was carried; for on it the well-discerning horses
1. 5 Were straining the chariot and the maidens were leading the way.

1. 6 The axle glowing in the naves was sending forth the whistle of a pipe
1. 7 (For it was being whirled about by the two rounded
1. 8 Wheels on either end), whenever the daughters of the sun,
1. 9 Leaving the realm of night, hastened to escort me towards the light,
1.10 After they had with their hands pushed back the veils from their heads.

1.11 There are the gates [separating] the ways of day and night
1.12 And they are enclosed by a lintel and a threshold of stone;
1.13 And the aetherial gates themselves are covered with big wing-doors,
1.14 Of which Dike, whose vengeance is stern, possesses the rewarding keys.
1.15 The maidens appeased her with gentle words

1.16 And knowingly persuaded her to push back
1.17 Quickly from the gates the bolted bar.
1,18 And a gaping chasm of the doors was produced by the gates' opening
1.19 Which had set revolving in the sockets one after the other the brazen axes
1.20 Fitted with bolts and pins. Straight through them

1.21 Did the maidens guide the horses and the car on the broad way.
1.22 And the goddess received me gladly and took in her hand my right hand
1.23 And addressed to me the following words:
1.24 'O young man coming to our abode joined with immortal charioteers
1.25 With the horses which carry you,

1.26 Welcome!, since it is by no means an evil lot that sent you forth to travel
1.27 On this road (for it is far away from the wandering of men),
1.28 But right and justice. It is necessary that you shall learn all things,
1.29 As well the unshaken heart of well-rounded truth
1.30 As the opinions of mortals in which there is no true belief.
1.31 Nevertheless you shall learn these [opinions] also, how the appearances,
1.32 Which pervade all things, had to be acceptable.'

TRUTH - ALETHEIA

Fragment 2

2. 1 Come then, I shall tell you, and do you pay attention to the account when you have heard it,
2. 2 Which are the only ways of inquiry that can be conceived;
2. 3 The one [says]: 'exists' and 'it is not possible not to exist,'
2. 4 It is the way of persuasion (for persuasion follows upon truth);

2. 5 The other [says]: 'exists-not' and 'not to exist is necessary,'
2. 6 This I point out to you is a path wholly unknowable.
2. 7 For you could not know that which does not exist (because it is impossible)
2. 8 Nor could you express it.

Fragment 3

... for the same thing can be thought and can exist

Fragment 4

4. 1 Behold things which, though absent, are nevertheless firmly present to the mind.
4. 2 For it cannot cut off Being from holding fast to Being,
4. 3 Either by dispersing it all everywhere in order
4. 4 Or by bringing it together.

Fragment 5

5. 1 It is indifferent to me
5. 2 Where I make a beginning; for there I come back again.

Fragment 6

6. 1 It is necessary to say and to think Being; for there is Being,
6. 2 But nothing is not. These things I order you to ponder.
6. 3 For from this first way of inquiry I hold you back;


6. 4 ... But also from this, on which mortals who know nothing
6. 5 Wander, double-headed; for helplessness
6. 6 Guides the wandering thought in their hearts. They are carried
6. 7 Deaf and blind at the same time, amazed, a horde incapable of judgment,
6. 8 By whom to be and not to be are considered the same
6. 9 And yet not the same, for whom the path of all things is backward-turning.

Fragment 7

7. 1 For never shall this be forced: that things that are not exist;
7. 2 But do you hold back your thought from this way of inquiry,
7. 3 Nor let inured habit force you, upon this road,
7. 4 To ply an aimless eye and ringing ear
7. 5 And tongue; but judge with reason the much contested argument
7. 6 Which has been given by me.

Fragment 8

8. 1 There is a solitary word still
8. 2 Left to say of a way: 'exists'; very many signs
8. 3 Are on this road: that Being is ungenerated and imperishable,
8. 4 Whole, unique, immovable, and complete.
8. 5 It was not once nor will it be, since it is now altogether,

8. 6 One, continuous. For, what origin could you search out for it?
8. 7 How and whence did it grow? Not from non-Being shall I allow
8. 8 You to say or to think, for it is not possible to say or to think
8. 9 That it is not. What need would have made it grow,
8.10 Beginning from non-Being, later or sooner?

8.11 Thus it is necessary either to exist all in all or not at all.
8.12 Nor will the force of conviction permit anything to come to be
8.13 Beyond itself;
8.14 Wherefore justice looses not her Fetters to permit [Being] to have come into being or to perish,
8.15 But holds [it] fast. Concerning these things the decision rests in this:

8.16 Is or is not. Therefore, as it is necessary, the decision has been taken
8.17 To leave one way unthinkable and unnamable (for it is not the true
8.18 Way) and the other way to be and to be true.
8.19 How could Being be hereafter? How could it have come into being?
8.20 If it was, it is not, nor if it is going to be in the future.

8.21 So, coming into being is extinguished and perishing is unheard of.
8.22 Nor is it divisible, since it is all alike.
8.23 Nor is there somewhat more here and somewhat less there that could prevent it from holding together;
8.24 But all is full of Being.
8.25 Therefore it is all continuous, for Being is in contact with Being.

8.26 But motionless in the limits of mighty bonds
8.27 It is without beginning and never-ending, since coming into being and perishing
8.28 Have been banished far away, driven out by true conviction.
8.29 Since it remains the same and in the same, it lies by itself
8.30 And abides so firmly where it is; for powerful Necessity

8.31 Holds it in the bonds of the limit which encircles Being,
8.32 Because it is not right for Being to be incomplete,
8.33 For it is not in need; if it were it would need all.
8.34 It is the same to think and the thought that [the object of thought] exists,
8.35 For without Being, in what has been expressed,

8.36 You will not find thought; for nothing other, besides Being, either is or will be,
8.37 Since Destiny fettered it
8.38 To be whole and immovable;
8.39 Therefore, all that mortals posited convinced that it is true will be [mere] name,
8.40 Coming into being and perishing, to be and not to be,

8.41 Change of place and exchange of brilliant color.
8.42 But since there is a furthest limit, it is in every direction complete;
8.43 Like the body of a well-rounded sphere,
8.44 From the middle everywhere of equal strength; for it need not be somewhat more here
8.45 Or somewhat less there,

8.46 For neither is there non-Being to prevent it from reaching
8.47 Its like, nor is there Being so that it could be
8.48 More than Being here and less than Being there, since it is all inviolable;
8.49 For from every point it is equal to itself, staying uniformly in the limits.

SEEMING - DOXA

8.50 Here I end my trustworthy account and thought
8.51 Concerning truth. From now on learn the beliefs of mortals,
8.52 Listening to the deceptive order of my words;
8.53 For they decided to name two forms,
8.54 A unity of which is not necessary - in which they have gone astray
8.55 And they divided form contrariwise and established characters
8.56 Apart from one another; for the one the etherial flame of fire,

8.57 Gentle and very light, everywhere identical with itself
8.58 But not identical with the other; but that one too by itself
8.59 Contrariwise obscure night, dense in body and heavy.
8.60 I tell you all the likely arrangement
8.61 In order that the wisdom of mortals may never outstrip you.

Fragment 9

9. 1 But once all things have been named Light and Night
9. 2 And these (i.e. Light and Night) according to their meanings have been attributed to these things and to those,
9. 3 All is full at the same time of Light and obscure Night,
9. 4 Of both equally, since there is nothing which does not belong to either.

Fragment 10

10.1 You will know the nature of the ether and all
10.2 The signs in the ether and the destructive works of the pure torch of the resplendent sun,
10.3 And whence they came into being.
10.4 You will know, too, the wandering works and the nature of the round-faced moon.
10.5 You will know also the sky which embraces all
10.6 Whence it was born and also how Necessity guiding it fettered it
10.7 To hold the limits of the stars.

Fragment 11

11.1 How the earth and the sun and the moon
11.2 And the common ether and the heavenly milky way and the outermost Olympos
11.3 And the fiery stars strove eagerly
11.4 To come into being.

Fragment 12

12.1 For the narrower [rings] are filled with pure Fire
12.2 And those which come after them with Night, and a portion of flame is discharged.
12.3 In the middle of these is the goddess who governs all things.
12.4 For everywhere she is the beginner of union and of painful birth,
12.5 Sending the female to unite with the male and again to the contrary the
12.6 Male with the female.

Fragment 13

She devised Eros as the very first of all gods ...

Fragment 14

Wandering around the earth shining in the night with a borrowed light.

Fragment 15

Always looking towards the light of the sun.

Fragment 16

16.1 For as at any time the mixture of the much wandering body is,
16.2 So does mind come to men. For the same thing
16.3 Is that the nature of the body thinks
16.4 In each and in all men; for the full is thought.

Fragment 17

On the right, boys; on the left, girls.

Fragment 18

18.1 When woman and man mix the seeds of Love,
18.2 The power which is formed in the veins out of different blood,
18.3 If it maintains proper proportion, produces well-formed bodies.
18.4 For if the powers, when the seeds are being mixed, fight
18.5 And do not constitute a unity in the body in which the mixture has taken place, then cruelly
18.6 Will they torment the nascent sex with double seed.

Fragment 19

19.1 So, according to belief, these things were born and now are,
19.2 And from now on they will grow and will afterwards perish.
19.3 For each of them men posited a distinctive name.

Cornford's Fragment

Such, changeless, is that for which as a whole the name is: 'to be'.

Albion
11-26-2010, 02:09 PM
A poem by Joe Gonnella...
_________________________________


Parmenides

As mist burns off of a morning—
as smoke dissipates when wind blows—
my words fade as you hear them.

As truth dissolves into falsehood—
as birdcalls vanish into night—
these letters disappear as your eyes
pass over them.

My lungs release the atoms
they’ve captured
back to the stars that distilled them.

I learn what ambiguity teaches.
Some knots will not come undone.
What I dream is not what I sense.
What I sense is not what I think.
Some thoughts are mine alone.
Blindness comes from such staring at the sun.

A budget of fallacies leads
to an economy of loss even for those
whose wealth is limitless.

Untie the knot of thought.
Solve the puzzle of words.
By that resolution to be born
again and again and again
in endless argument with a sun
that comes up fresh each morning
and disappears again each night.

My words have teeth.
My silences are full.
My arguments are beautiful.
My hand exists as a hand.
My eye is as sharp as a hawk’s.
I circle my prey and I dive
to eat what is under my talons
until what is not becomes me
to be born anew by the name I give it
as it dies inside me.

My mares lead me where I most desire
even to that point where Apollo
cedes dominion to a refugee like me.

My horses strain against their burden.
I travel the road they’ve chosen
preceded by guides the gods selected.

The axle of my chariot sings
In its sockets as if at the heart
of all that spinning a pipe
is being blown by a shepherd.

Casting aside earth’s veil
the daughters of the sun lead me
to daylight from night’s deep.

At the crack of dark
where dawn should be,
at the crux of contradiction,
all numbers contract
to a singularity.

Gates of stone—
rock above, rock below—
prodigious doors tower
to vertiginous heights,
concealing the kingdom
I have come to map.

Wherever I start won’t matter:
for the man who turns
on the pivot of what is
every step is the same in a circle.
Words are the arrows
by which I pin objects down
into the field of what exists.

A word which denotes nothing
is as hollow as a bone
from a creature never born.

Those who walk the way of what is not
are lost and will wander forever
between confusions ceiling
and a borderless floor.

Unasked questions have no answers.
Unwhispered secrets can never be revealed.
Without puzzle there is no solution.
A lie unuttered can’t be countered
by orphaned truth.

There is no other choice:
what is, is and what
is not is not. All is a unity
into which plurality folds
like the wings of a hawk
perched on a limb
just before it hunts.

The doors of the kingdom of justice
swing wide for me— this road
was meant to bring me
good fortune— as lonely as it is.

All answers are mine for the asking.
The merest wisp of passing opinion,
the perfect sphere of fearless truth,
everything is open to me: the ephemeral
and the everlasting just the same.

I smell the scent of truth
on a wind rising from the east.
I see the heart of dark
in what comes later.
I taste the brightness
that falls around my shoulders.
I still the rush of time
by the movement of my limbs.
I hear the sun’s chariot
rolling in its track
back to the dark I know will come.

There are no beginnings.
There are no endings.
The world I name
is the only world I know.

solomon levi
11-26-2010, 03:15 PM
Thanks for the links Nibiru. Interesting.
I'm not sure which book it's in. I tried to google the associated words but only
find La Gorda referencing the event in "The Second Ring of Power", so it was before then.
And not in the first book. I'd guess "Tales of Power". Maybe "Journey to Ixtlan".

Andro
11-30-2010, 01:59 PM
Quoth Philip K. Dick:


The pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Parmenides taught that the only things that are real are things which never change... and the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Heraclitus taught that everything changes.

If you superimpose their two views, you get this result:

Nothing is real.

:cool:

Albion
11-30-2010, 09:26 PM
Quoth Philip K. Dick:

The pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Parmenides taught that the only things that are real are things which never change... and the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Heraclitus taught that everything changes.

If you superimpose their two views, you get this result:

Nothing is real.

:cool:


Wyrd… I was just watching “Through a Scanner Darkly” last evening…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_glpbNS_G2M&feature=related

[A great anti-drug film, as Philip K. Dick dedicated the story to his many friends who either died of or were mentally/physically handicapped due to drug abuse. Contrary to myth, he himself had “only” used amphetamines.]

Below is an extension of that quote [which, I realize, you may not have seen], from:

[B]How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later

http://deoxy.org/pkd_how2build.htm

“The pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Parmenides taught that the only things that are real are things which never change... and the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher Heraclitus taught that everything changes. If you superimpose their two views, you get this result: Nothing is real.

There is a fascinating next step to this line of thinking: Parmenides could never have existed because he grew old and died and disappeared, so, according to his own philosophy, he did not exist. And Heraclitus may have been right—let's not forget that; so if Heraclitus was right, then Parmenides did exist, and therefore, according to Heraclitus' philosophy, perhaps Parmenides was right, since Parmenides fulfilled the conditions, the criteria, by which Heraclitus judged things real.

I offer this merely to show that as soon as you begin to ask what is ultimately real, you right away begin talk nonsense. Zeno proved that motion was impossible (actually he only imagined that he had proved this; what he lacked was what technically is called the "theory of limits"). David Hume, the greatest skeptic of them all, once remarked that after a gathering of skeptics met to proclaim the veracity of skepticism as a philosophy, all of the members of the gathering nonetheless left by the door rather than the window. I see Hume's point. It was all just talk. The solemn philosophers weren't taking what they said seriously.”


“In Plato's Timaeus, God does not create the universe, as does the Christian God; He simply finds it one day. It is in a state of total chaos. God sets to work to transform the chaos into order. That idea appeals to me, and I have adapted it to fit my own intellectual needs: What if our universe started out as not quite real, a sort of illusion, as the Hindu religion teaches, and God, out of love and kindness for us, is slowly transmuting it, slowly and secretly, into something real?”

“We would not be aware of this transformation, since we were not aware that our world was an illusion in the first place. This technically is a Gnostic idea. Gnosticism is a religion which embraced Jews, Christians, and pagans for several centuries. I have been accused of holding Gnostic ideas. I guess I do. At one time I would have been burned. But some of their ideas intrigue me. One time, when I was researching Gnosticism in the Britannica, I came across mention of a Gnostic codex called The Unreal God and the Aspects of His Nonexistent Universe, an idea which reduced me to helpless laughter. What kind of person would write about something that he knows doesn't exist, and how can something that doesn't exist have aspects? But then I realized that I'd been writing about these matters for over twenty-five years. I guess there is a lot of latitude in what you can say when writing about a topic that does not exist.”

[Another quote from that essay]

“For over four years now, I have been trying one theory after another: circular time, frozen time, timeless time, what is called "sacred" as contrasted to "mundane" time... I can't count the theories I've tried out. One constant has prevailed, though, throughout all theories. There must indeed be a mysterious Holy Spirit which has an exact and intimate relation to Christ, which can indwell in human minds, guide and inform them, and even express itself through those humans, even without their awareness.”

_________________________________________________

From The Zen teaching of Huang Po

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7258965/Huang-Po-The-Dharma-of-Mind-Transmission-Zen-Teachings

“Since time without beginning, the nature of Awakened Mind and Emptiness has consisted of the same, absolute non-duality of no birth or death, no existence or non-existence, no purity or impurity, no movement or stillness, no young or old, no inside or outside, no shape and form, no sound and color. Neither striving nor searching, one should not use intellect to understand nor words to express Awakened Mind. One should not think that it is a place or things, name or form. One should not think that it is a place or things, name or form. Only then is it realized that all Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and sentient beings possess the same natural state of great Nirvana.”

“Question: "The holy without-mind' is Buddha, but might the worldly without-mind' sink into emptiness?" The master answered: "Hold neither a concept of holy nor of worldly; think neither of emptiness nor tranquillity in the Dharma. Since originally there is no non-existent Dharma, it is, therefore, not necessary to have a view of existence as such. Furthermore, concepts of existence and non-existence are all perverted views just like the illusion created by a film spread over diseased eyes. Analogously, the perceptions of seeing and hearing, just like the film that creates the illusion for diseased eyes, cause the errors and delusions of all sentient beings. Being without motive, desire or view, and without compromise, is the way of the Patriarch. In addition, being without motive is the principle that allows the flourishing of Buddha. In contrast, discriminating view, firmly grasped, encourages the thriving of the army of Mara."

“The Dharma of One Mind consists of utter voidness and the universal Dharmakaya, which alone is called The Truth of All Buddhas.' One cannot seek this Dharma in subjective and objective duality; neither can it be found by searching out books and concepts, nor can it be perceived in time or space. It can only be tacitly understood. This is the doorway to understanding the non-action Dharma. If you want to comprehend, just be without mind and you will suddenly be enlightened; for if you intend or plan to learn about or desire to get something, you will find yourself very far away from the truth. However, if you have no discrimination, do not grasp thought and abandon all views, then the mind, as firm and hard as a piece of wood or stone, will have a chance to realize the Tao."
_________________________________________________

From The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23406500/the-zen-teachings-of-bodhidharma

“This mind has no form or characteristics, no cause or effect, no tendons or bones. It’s like space. You can’t hold it. Its not the mind or materialists or nihilists. Except for a Tathagata, no one else - no mortal, no deluded being - can fathom it.

But this mind isn’t somewhere outside the material body of four elements. Without this mind we can’t move. The body has no awareness. Like a plant or stone, the body has no nature. So how does it move? It’s the mind that moves. Language and behavior, perception and conception are all functions of the moving mind. All motion is the mind’s motion. Motion is its function. Apart from motion there’s no mind, and apart from the mind there’s no motion. But motion isn’t the mind. And the mind isn’t motion. Motion is basically mindless. And the mind is basically motionless. But motion doesn’t exist without the mind. And the mind doesn’t exist without motion. There’s no mind for motion to exist apart from, and no motion for mind to exist apart from. Motion is the mind’s function, and its function is its motion. Even so, the mind neither moves nor functions, the essence of its functioning is emptiness and emptiness is essentially motionless. Motion is the same as the mind. And the mind is essentially motionless. Hence the Sutras tell us to move without moving, to travel without traveling, to see without seeing, to laugh without laughing, to hear without hearing, to know without knowing, to be happy, without being happy, to walk without walking, to stand without standing. And the sutras say, "Go beyond language. Go beyond thought." Basically,
seeing, hearing, and knowing are completely empty. Your anger, Joy, or pain is like that of puppet. You search but you won’t find a thing.”

“To give up yourself without regret is the greatest charity. To transcend motion and stillness is the highest meditation. Mortals keep moving, and Arhats stay still." But the highest meditation surpasses both that of mortals and that of Arhats. People who reach such understanding free themselves from all appearances without effort and cure all illnesses without treatment. Such is the power of great Zen.”

“Whoever knows that the mind is a fiction and devoid of anything real knows that his own mind neither exists nor doesn’t exist. Mortals keep creating the mind, claiming it exists. And Arhats keep negating the mind, claiming it doesn’t exist. But bodhisattvas and Buddhas neither create nor negate the mind. This is what’s meant by the mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist. The mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist is called the Middle Way.”

“If you use your mind to study reality, you won’t understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you’ll understand both. Those who don’t understand don’t understand understanding. And those who understand, understand not understanding. People capable of true vision know that the mind is empty. They transcend both understanding and not understanding. The absence of both understanding and not understanding is true understanding Seen with true vision, form isn’t simply form, because form depends on mind. And mind isn’t simply mind, because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. That which exists exists in relation to that which doesn’t exist. And that which doesn’t exist doesn’t exist in relation to that which exists. This is true vision. By means of such vision nothing is seen and nothing is not seen. Such vision reaches throughout the ten directions without seeing: because nothing is seen; because not seeing is seen; because seeing isn’t seeing. What mortals see are delusions. True vision is detached from seeing. The mind and the world are opposites, and vision arises where they meet. When your mind doesn’t stir inside, the world doesn’t arise outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is true vision. And such understanding is true understanding.”

“To see nothing is to perceive the Way, and to understand nothing is to know the Dharma, because seeing is neither seeing nor not seeing and because understanding is neither understanding nor not understanding. Seeing without seeing is true vision. Understanding without understanding is true understanding.”

“True vision isn’t just seeing seeing. It’s also seeing not seeing. And true understanding isn’t just understanding understanding. It’s also understanding not understanding. If you understand anything, you don’t understand. Only when you understand nothing is it true understanding. Understanding is neither understanding nor not understanding.”


“The body neither exists nor doesn’t exist. Hence existence as a mortal and nonexistence as a sage are conceptions with which a sage has nothing to do. His heart is empty and spacious as the sky. That which follows is witnessed on the Way. It’s beyond the ken of Arhats and mortals.”

[I quote from these Zen texts because they deal with the possible falseness of a real/unreal dichotomy but I consider Zen, like the Chinese pentatonic scale, to be missing important notes/factors that keep it from being truly symphonic]
_________________________________________________

I wonder about the Greek penchant for positing absolute dichotomies of opposing elements - and their accuracy.

I wonder if the case isn’t more subtle, deeper, complex [albeit not the sort of complexity that overshadows simplicity].

Let’s say there is an Eternal Absolute which sponsors all “things.”

We associate that which is lasting to its degree of Quality.

And that which cannot end is Dynamic beyond mere life & death [and therefore is not stagnant].

“It” also is a wellspring of Potential that allows for the existential. And therefore, not merely exists, but hyper exists.

And is Self-Aware Awareness. And Love, Joy, Peace, etc.

Therefore, the Absolute is:
Perfect Dynamic Quality,
Infinite Potential,
Self-Aware Awareness,
Love, Joy, Peace, etc.,
Coherence deeper than chaos,
An “Other” which is “Not Other Than,”
A Oneness not contrary to multiplicity,
Which “twists” into individualities - yet is always greater,

…and, in my opinion, is beyond distinctions of being “real” or “unreal.” And, so all “things” in manifestation to individuated awarenesses, are both relatively real and relatively unreal to varying degrees.

To dream of building something is relatively less real than to actually build it [although the former might prove to be the seed of the latter]. To say they are both equally unreal is to reduce them to a sort of flatland. To say that an act expressing genuine love [quality] is of no more lasting value or reality than to veg-out in front of a TV set, is similarly a reductionism. Is coherent, ordered thinking of no more import than random muddle? There are hierarchies of quality and value and relative reality even within a flux of temporal motions. A false, Gnostic dichotomy eliminates the premises of development - but does that really reflect life as we encounter it? Zeno, via a false dichotomy, seemed to prove that there was no such thing as motion. I’m willing to accept that the nature of motion may not be at all what we think - but I don’t believe Zeno’s logic will be the basis for the breakthrough in understanding, when it comes.

For all its faults, we do benefit from all those acts of quality, and positive ordering, the fruits of which we draw from when we do something as simple as reading a book in a heated room. We witness, and learn to facilitate development in our own lives. Yes, perhaps it could be said that that core Awareness did not develop - but our capacity to enjoy it certainly seems to [expand].

But our ongoing development requires us to submit our current maps/presuppositions to the “no-thing-ness” of the deeper mystery and singularity of the territory beyond mind-frames - that allows for their overhaul and refinement.

Anyway, I very much enjoy your having brought up the subject - and the factors you‘ve introduced lately - which are a pleasure to work with…

Andro
11-30-2010, 09:52 PM
As soon as you begin to ask what is ultimately real, you right away begin talk nonsense.

Not quite. Talk a different 'language' is more likely. Sounding like 'nonsense' to the fragmented mind? Definitely.

And I DID read the entire essay, but chose the section most relevant to the "Nothing IS real" issue. :)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________

In the movie 'Inception', Time/Space is 'streched/dilated' by a certain factor every time we descend into a deeper level. 10 hours at one level appear like 50 years 5 levels below.

Imagine what 'happens' if we 'climb' up the levels towards infinity... Time and Space are reduced to practically NOTHING :)

Andro
12-01-2010, 08:20 AM
On the topic, fun and interesting to watch (only 3 minutes):

http://www.wimp.com/heraclitusparmenides (http://www.wimp.com/heraclitusparmenides/)

Andro
01-27-2012, 05:56 PM
Just a quick reminder...

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/WatchNothing.jpg

:cool:

zoas23
01-27-2012, 07:58 PM
Interesting, when I was studying philosophy at the university, I took a class strictly about this subject, in which two international experts on Parmenides defended each one his point of view. One of them defended the idea that Parmenides said that "that which is nothing is real" the other one defended the opposite idea. Their names are Alfonoso Gomez Lobo and Nestor Luis Cordero.

(This was specially fun because both of them have Spanish last names and "Lobo" is the Spanish for "Wolf", whilst "Cordero" is the Spanish for "Lamb"). This was, somehow, hilarious.

The lamb didn't agree with you, but the wolf had your opinion. I'm giving their full names because I found that there are translations of parts of their works on the internet.

I was right now getting much more focused on neo-platonists as to give a reasonable opinion about the pre-socratics or Parmenides. But you may be interested in this quote by Porphyry:

"26. Of that nature which is beyond intellect, many things are asserted through intellection, but it is surveyed by a cessation of intellectual energy better than with it 14; just as with respect to one who is asleep, many things are asserted of him while he is in that state by those who are awake; but the proper knowledge and apprehension of his dormant condition, is only to be obtained through sleep. For the similar is known by the similar; because all knowledge is an assimilation to the object of knowledge.

27. With respect to that which is non-being, we either produce it, being ourselves separated from real being, or we have a preconception of it, as adhering to being. Hence, if we are separated from being, we have not an antecedent conception of the non-being which is above being, but our knowledge in this case is only that of a false passion, such as that which |178 happens to a man when he departs from himself. For as a man may himself, and through himself, be truly elevated to the non-being which is above being, so, by departing from being, he is led to the non-being which is a falling off from being."
http://tertullian.org/fathers/porphyry_sententiae_02_trans.htm