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solomon levi
01-05-2011, 11:39 AM
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/language/whorf.html

III
01-06-2011, 10:09 PM
Hi Solomon,

"She ought to be taken out and hung for the cold blooded murder of the English tongue". So she is a game animal to be eaten? Humans are hanged, game animals and a side of beef are "hung".

Much of our thinking is done with memes, which includes meanings. So there are two different forms of one of the 10 commandments.
"Thou shalt not kill"
"Thou shalt not murder"

These are different as recently demonstrated in Pakistan where the guy was (killed or murdered) for blasphemy 500 mullahs agreed it was a justified kill, not murder.


How about "I DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN".

What does "sex" mean? Does "sex" include "erotic massage". Circa 1900 USA it did not include "pelvic massage" leading to "hysterical paroxysm" (orgasm). It wasn't sex and it wasn't controversial. The vibrator was invented as a labor saving medical device. It had absolutely nothing to do with sex.

This device is used for breeding animals but also for extracting semen from celebate priests so the don't have to masturbate to give a semen sample. Some people use this as a toy.l Are signals from electrodes "sex"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroejaculation
Electroejaculation is a procedure used to obtain semen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semen) samples from sexually mature male (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male) mammals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal). The procedure is applied for breeding programs and research purposes in various species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species), as well as in the treatment of an ejaculatory dysfunction in human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human) males.
Electroejaculation is usually carried out under a general anesthetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_anesthetic). An electric probe is inserted into the rectum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectum) adjacent to the prostate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostate). The probe delivers a slight electric current that stimulates nearby nerves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve), resulting in contraction of the pelvic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvis) muscles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle) and ejaculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejaculation). This procedure is used frequently with large mammals, particularly bulls and some domestic animals, as well as humans who have certain types of paralysis or erectile dysfunction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erectile_dysfunction).

So language and meanings certainly affect how we think or even can think. Language differences brought about an impeachment AND a lack of conviction.

You and I have negotiated meaning of various things and have become able to communicate, whether in your local timebound persona or from the "ALL" or whatever. Since I also have experienced the chamber of ALL and recognize it and include it in my "self" I can accept your speaking from there and understand it.

So it brings me to one last statement. I saw on prime time TV the other night the first ad for an oral "sex" accessory, though they talk all around it and don't actually call it that, I have ever seen on prime time or TV for that matter. It ought to cause a stir amongst those who protested "4 hour erection" cautions for several medication on tv.



.

solomon levi
01-07-2011, 06:19 AM
No really, tell us what's on your mind! :D
It was funny reading you this time. I had to re-read my link cause it didn't look at first like we were talking about the same thing.
I post about language and you come back with all this sex stuff :) It threw me for a second. But ok - I follow you. :)

Andro
01-07-2011, 07:27 AM
I post about language and you come back with all this sex stuff.
If all you have is a hammer... (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/if_all_you_have_is_a_hammer,_everything_looks_like _a_nail)

But In the End (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWbgkRpYwc), it doesn't really matter... One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz7Yf-etI2E&feature=related) but not the same... And waiting for the Hammer to Fall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9PCXVZto18) :)

III
01-07-2011, 08:18 AM
No really, tell us what's on your mind! :D
It was funny reading you this time. I had to re-read my link cause it didn't look at first like we were talking about the same thing.
I post about language and you come back with all this sex stuff :) It threw me for a second. But ok - I follow you. :)

Hi Solomon,

I did read the link. I disagreed with some of the things said there. Beyond anything else I am a practitioner of philosophy. I have worked very deeply with a number of people and seen how they think and how the words and memes used shape their thoughts.and helped them reconstruct their foundations of thought. There are a variety of ways to "think" non verbally including simulation which I have mentioned before. That too is limited by the archetypes and variations available to the person. They don't easily think of and about things they find "inconceivable" as demonstrated in THE PRINCESS BRIDE. That is a lot of what I do with a person. I'm very good at stepping on their corns they didn't even know that they had and bringing them out into the open pushing past what they considered "inconceivable". "Open your mind and let the pictures come ...".

I post about language and you come back with all this sex stuff

Let's see, I use a quote from MY FAIR LADY with a misuse of language by a misogynistic "left brained word fetishist" to quote another movie.

I speak of 2 versions of one of the 10 commandments having to do with murder or killing and a recent religious murder in Pakistan hinging on understanding words.

I speak of a recent presidential impeachment hinging upon the meaning of the word "SEX" and in a careful explication I give a few examples, pushing edges of course, of things some people might consider "sex" and other people clearly don't or didn't consider "sex", and it appears that all you see is "all this sex stuff ". Wow! The old joke is true. You know, starting a speech with the word "SEX! Now that I have your attention ..."

It threw me for a second. But ok - I follow you

Excellent. I expected that you would. Have fun, even with words.

solomon levi
01-07-2011, 06:58 PM
:D I didn't miss the couple non-sex things. It was just predominantly so, and given the topic of words and language,
one could have taken it anywhere.
I didn't mean it as a judgement. I just thought it was funny. :)

Putting aside the link, do you agree/see that reality is, not strictly so, but especially for the sleeping, syntaxual (I made that word up! :))?

I dated a girl once that would often use the words "pissed off" when she was upset. She struggled with a recurring bladder infection.
I could give a thousand more examples.

My point in creating the post is just to make people aware of the connection between their words and their reality.
I've observed in myself how much my language has changed as I've grown more aware and more connected.
Yours obviously has as well. If I were not so fluid and capable of leaving my own description and merging with anothers,
I would pass over many of your posts in frustration. :)


"Open your mind and let the pictures come ...".

The brain uses some 10,000 neurons to fire the color yellow. Thinking is visual, symbolic for the brain and the subconscious.
Again, not strictly so - it doesn't have to be. But we were all domesticated that way. As a child, your mom or somebody
kept repeating, "The apple is red" and things like that. And we learned by memorization, which is not real learning, as you are
pointing to as well. But the fact for most of us is that we have been raised/trained/programmed to associate reality to words
and images and this loop also allows words to "create" reality (subjectively). So I just want to bring attention to that.
After that is seen, and tested and one becomes proficient in the art, THEN is better time to discuss nonverbal reality.

I'm sure you and Androgynus and I can have those discussions. I just wanted to clarify this for all the readers. And I am not
bound to the linear path, but it is more accessible for most people - the mind is again conditioned that way. Like you said,
what is conceivable.

To rephrase, I guess if we want to speak about non-verbal reality, it would be better to do so in a separate post so as not to
confuse. These two modes are not arguments against each other, but simply different/parallel means of perception.

:)

III
01-08-2011, 12:13 AM
:D I didn't miss the couple non-sex things. It was just predominantly so, and given the topic of words and language,
one could have taken it anywhere.
I didn't mean it as a judgement. I just thought it was funny. :)

Putting aside the link, do you agree/see that reality is, not strictly so, but especially for the sleeping, syntaxual (I made that word up! :))?

I dated a girl once that would often use the words "pissed off" when she was upset. She struggled with a recurring bladder infection.
I could give a thousand more examples.

My point in creating the post is just to make people aware of the connection between their words and their reality.
I've observed in myself how much my language has changed as I've grown more aware and more connected.
Yours obviously has as well. If I were not so fluid and capable of leaving my own description and merging with anothers,
I would pass over many of your posts in frustration. :)


"Open your mind and let the pictures come ...".

The brain uses some 10,000 neurons to fire the color yellow. Thinking is visual, symbolic for the brain and the subconscious.
Again, not strictly so - it doesn't have to be. But we were all domesticated that way. As a child, your mom or somebody
kept repeating, "The apple is red" and things like that. And we learned by memorization, which is not real learning, as you are
pointing to as well. But the fact for most of us is that we have been raised/trained/programmed to associate reality to words
and images and this loop also allows words to "create" reality (subjectively). So I just want to bring attention to that.
After that is seen, and tested and one becomes proficient in the art, THEN is better time to discuss nonverbal reality.

I'm sure you and Androgynus and I can have those discussions. I just wanted to clarify this for all the readers. And I am not
bound to the linear path, but it is more accessible for most people - the mind is again conditioned that way. Like you said,
what is conceivable.

To rephrase, I guess if we want to speak about non-verbal reality, it would be better to do so in a separate post so as not to
confuse. These two modes are not arguments against each other, but simply different/parallel means of perception.

:)

Hi Solomon,

And I am not bound to the linear path, but it is more accessible for most people - the mind is again conditioned that way. Like you said, what is conceivable.

Maybe 15-20 years ago in philosophical discussions had with someone, another who was also an analyst programmer, we came up with a term "matrix thinking". It had to do with non-linear discussion, So rather than saying x + y + z = sdf in a linear fashion, various facts, relationships, interactions all are brought out into the space sort of defining the space as having these attributes, these "objects" in a newer terminology that bear some relationship together. Books that need to be read several times because later information is needed to fully understand earlier information that is present in a linear fashion but not understood that way because of forward/backward/circular referencing. For me this came about by learning to model n-dimensional databases and the all the effects on it from various program segments in my head.

When done this way, many unoccupied areas can be inferred based on the various data etc surrounding it. You may notice that I use "etc" a lot in the style of Alfred Korzybski and "general semantics". I am also adapting "/" at times rather that "(...) for listing alternates, expansions, etc. As was mentioned of Eliza "She is a prisoner of every syllable she utters" as her world of conception and understanding is was extremely limited.

Learning calculus was a stunning revolution in thought for me, a genuine metaphysical experience. It was something I had been trying to figure out since 7th grade and John Glenn's suborbital flight as it was quite obvious that with a steady thrust and a decreasing mass that acceleration would be continuously changing. I figured out successive approximations and that a limit was reached as delta T approaches zero but not the next step as to how to calculate it easily or how to calculate the instantaneous slope and so forth.

I just thought it was funny.

Good, I think humor is very important and can be very informative. If you see a good straight line, use it..

I would pass over many of your posts in frustration.

I really do try to be clear. Many things are difficult to say concrete and limited things about. That perhaps is one of the difficulties in Alchemy or metaphysics in general.


putting aside the link, do you agree/see that reality is, not strictly so, but especially for the sleeping, syntaxual (I made that word up! :))?

Yup. A computer can't possibly "know what I mean?" People also rarely.