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Aleilius
01-08-2011, 12:44 PM
Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.

Source: http://www.buddhanet.net/wings4ts.htm


The mind is aware; it is conscious. In many places the Buddha describes his enlightenment in terms of "knowing:" such as in the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, "Knowing arose" (˝āṇa udapādi). With nirvāṇa the consciousness is released, and the mind becomes aware in a way that is totally unconstrained by anything in the conditioned world. The Buddha describes this in a variety of passages. One way is as follows:

Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around.[11][12]

Ajahns Pasanno and Amaro write that what is referred to with the use of the word "vi˝˝ana" is the quality of awareness, and that the use of the term "vi˝˝ana" must be in a broader way than it usually is meant: "The Buddha avoided the nit-picking pedantry of many philosophers contemporary with him and opted for a more broad-brush, colloquial style, geared to particular listeners in a language which they could understand. Thus ‘vi˝˝ana’ here can be assumed to mean ‘knowing’ but not the partial, fragmented, discriminative (vi-) knowing (-˝ana) which the word usually implies. Instead it must mean a knowing of a primordial, transcendent nature, otherwise the passage which contains it would be self-contradictory." They then give further context for why this choice of words may have been made; the passages may represent an example of the Buddha using his "skill in means" to teach Brahmins in terms they were familiar with.[13] This "non-manifestive consciousness" differs from the kinds of consciousness associated to the six sense media, which have a "surface" that they fall upon and arise in response to.[11] According to Peter Harvey, the early texts are ambivalent as to whether or not the term "consciousness" is accurate.[14] In a liberated individual, this is directly experienced, in a way that is free from any dependence on conditions at all.[11][15]

In one interpretation, the "luminous consciousness" is identical with nirvāṇa.[16][17] Others disagree, finding it to be not nirvāṇa itself, but instead to be a kind of consciousness accessible only to arahants.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana#Transcendent_knowing


Arhat (Sanskrit: अर्हत arhat; Pali: arahant), in Buddhism, signifies a spiritual practitioner who has realized certain high stages of attainment. The implications of the term vary based on the respective schools and traditions.

In Theravada Buddhism, it means anyone who has reached the total Awakening and attained Nirvana, including the Buddha. An arahant is a person who has destroyed greed, hatred, and delusion - the unwholesome roots which underlie all fetters - who upon decease will not be reborn in any world, having wholly cut off all fetters that bind a person to the samsara. In the Pali Canon, the word is sometimes used as a synonym for tathagata.[15]

In Theravada Buddhism the Buddha himself is first identified as an arahant, as are his enlightened followers, because they are free from all defilements, without greed, hatred, delusion, ignorance and craving, lacking "assets" which will lead to future birth, the arahant knows and sees the real here and now. This virtue shows stainless purity, true worth, and the accomplishment of the end, nibbana.[17]

In the Pali canon, Ānanda states that he knows monastics to achieve nibbana in one of four ways:[original research?]

* one develops insight preceded by serenity (Pali: samatha-pubbaṇgamaṃ vipassanaṃ),
* one develops serenity preceded by insight (vipassanā-pubbaṇgamaṃ samathaṃ),
* one develops serenity and insight in a stepwise fashion (samatha-vipassanaṃ yuganaddhaṃ),
* one's mind becomes seized by excitation about the dhamma and, as a consequence, develops serenity and abandons the fetters (dhamma-uddhacca-viggahitaṃ mānasaṃ hoti).[18][19]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arahants


To destroy all delusions of the mind. To see things as they really are. To be aware of truth. What is enlightenment? What is nirvana?

Andro
01-08-2011, 03:16 PM
What is enlightenment? What is nirvana?

One almost-not-too-allegorical answer is found at the very end of the movie 'Pi'.

Watch it online HERE (http://movies.freemovieweb.com/s550/movie3460.htm) or HERE (http://www.onlinewatchmovies.net/hollywood-movie/pi-1998-hollywood-movie-watch-online.html).

Highly recommended!

Aleilius
01-08-2011, 03:33 PM
One almost-not-too-allegorical answer is found at the very end of the movie 'Pi'.

Watch it online HERE (http://movies.freemovieweb.com/s550/movie3460.htm) or HERE (http://www.onlinewatchmovies.net/hollywood-movie/pi-1998-hollywood-movie-watch-online.html).

Highly recommended!

Pi is a great strange movie! I watched it back in 2004. It's kind of a "fringe" movie nowadays.

solomon levi
01-08-2011, 07:55 PM
To destroy all delusions of the mind. To see things as they really are. To be aware of truth. What is enlightenment? What is nirvana?

nirvana
1836, from Skt. nirvana-s "extinction, disappearance" (of the individual soul into the universal), lit. "to blow out, a blowing out" ("not transitively, but as a fire ceases to draw;" a literal Latinization would be de-spiration), from nis-, nir- "out" + va "to blow" (see wind (n.)).

To me, this suggests the blowing out of the flame of passion/desire/striving. (I'm using passion in the usual active sense and not my green language passive sense/interpretation).

Enlightenment I define as "to be in light of; in knowledge of". To know (Gnosis) the truth/reality; as you said - destroy all delusions of the mind - see things as they really are.

I don't mean to sound like an arrogant accomplished somebody, but this really isn't as difficult as Buddhism (and other systems) make it appear to be.
It's closer than close, but seemingly far if you desire to wrap your mind around it.
Studying nonduality is the best approach IMO. (which makes the word "approach" meaningless because it signifies separation).

It is the SIMPLEST thing which is why it is impossible for the mind that complicates everything. The mind IS separation - THE separator.
So it cannot grasp nonduality. And this is mankind's primary tool (identity really - they forgot mind was only a tool and can't put it down!)
so Nirvana is therefore so far away for them.

Enlightenment/Nirvana is JUST THIS. That's all. Don't try to do anything, to change anything, to be something...
It's just THIS. This moment is the stone the builders rejected, because they're always building.
As the Gnostic Demiurgos (half maker) imagines it can create better than God/the IS/Ineffable.

Look at all the action terms:
Karma means action, doing. Urgos - maker. Ahamkara - the "I' maker. Builders... Jesus was a carpenter/TEKTON...
Everyone is trying to do, to make, to be(come)... but the IS already IS. There is nothing to do but appreciate/recognize/acknowledge IT.
JUST THIS. Whatever THIS is - THAT'S IT!
This takes the delusionary burden of striving off your shoulders. Everything has already been done; and the Source is doing YOU.
So you/ego/mind can stop trying to do YOU better. This is "the sin" - that the ego strives and in striving rejects what God/This moment already is.
Or, as I said a couple years ago, we imagine ourselves as subject and the world/external as objects; but we are objects of the Source who is the sole Subject.
Demon est Deus Inversus.
God is manifest as all this. All this comes from God/Source. The Source was - it created or became - it had nothing to create with but itself -
so all this creation IS God/Source. And this creation isn't something that happened billions of years ago - it happens every moment.

These are some of the perspectives that when seen appear as "Enlightenment".
But striving to see them is not the way.
Anyway, whether we recognize it or not doesn't affect anything real.
Your life will seem easier, more peaceful. But that doesn't mean anything in the world has changed.
The environment is as chaotic as ever, but the "I" is not there to judge it as chaos - to know the difference between order and chaos,
good and bad, right and wrong, should and shouldn't, self and not-self....

Aleilius
01-08-2011, 08:05 PM
Enlightenment/Nirvana is JUST THIS. That's all. Don't try to do anything, to change anything, to be something...
It's just THIS. This moment is the stone the builders rejected, because they're always building.
As the Gnostic Demiurgos (half maker) imagines it can create better than God/the IS/Ineffable.

For me, enlightenment is pure awareness after one has "destroyed" the fetters, and all forms of delusion. It is the highest form of consciousness.


The Pāli Canon also contains other perspectives on nirvāna; for one, it is linked to seeing the empty nature of all phenomena. It is also presented as a radical reordering of consciousness and unleashing of awareness.[2] Scholar Herbert Guenther states that with nirvāṇa "the ideal personality, the true human being" becomes reality.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana

rebis
01-09-2011, 01:28 AM
There is a nice line from a Van Morrison song "......enlightenment doesn't know what it is......"

solomon levi
01-09-2011, 03:40 AM
There is a nice line from a Van Morrison song "......enlightenment doesn't know what it is......"

Exactly. We nondualists don't use the term enlightenment - it is a myth; that something can be attained that isn't already THIS. :)

Frater IA
01-09-2011, 10:07 AM
We are already enlightened and divine beings, we have yet to understand this. Always searching for the next outward experience, while nirvana lies inward.

solomon levi
01-16-2011, 12:28 AM
U.G. Krishnamurti -
"People call me an 'enlightened man' -- I detest that term -- they can't find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I've searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn't arise. I don't give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God."
______________
"I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize -- that's the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize -- and you say to yourself "What the hell have I been doing all my life?!" That blasts you."
_______________
"All kinds of things happened to me -- I went through that, you see. The physical pain was unbearable -- that is why I say you really don't want this. I wish I could give you a glimpse of it, a touch of it -- then you wouldn't want to touch this at all. What you are pursuing doesn't exist; it is a myth. You wouldn't want anything to do with this."
_______________
"But whatever you do in the direction of whatever you are after -- the pursuit or search for truth or reality -- takes you away from your own very natural state, in which you always are. It's not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a result of your effort -- that is why I use the word `acausal'. It has no cause, but somehow the search come to an end.
In spite of it -- yes, that's the word. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express itself. That is why I call this 'your natural state'. You're always in that state. What prevents what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the wrong direction, so all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that consciousness. You may not (Laughs) like the word 'contamination', but all that you consider sacred, holy and profound is a contamination.
So, there's nothing that you can do. It's not in your hands. I don't like to use the word 'grace', because if you use the word 'grace', the grace of whom? You are not a specially chosen individual; you deserve this, I don't know why.
If it were possible for me, I would be able to help somebody. This is something which I can't give, because you have it. Why should I give it to you? It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which you already have."

Aleilius
01-16-2011, 03:29 AM
Those perspectives are very nihilist. That's like saying: "what is the point of all this?" Of course, the answer would be: "there is no point."

A man must believe in something, even if it should only prove to be his/her own dreams. We are our own imagination. Let us imagine away! What is enlightenment? Enlightenment is realization, and expression of one's own true nature. It is to be aware of his/her own existence. It is expression of complete awareness. Enlightenment isn't something that can be explained. It is union with divinity. It's something to be experienced. It is the highest form of consciousness. It is a state of mind.

Does enlightenment exist? Yes, and we each choose our own poison.

I don't know, maybe it is a stretch to say these things.

Salazius
01-16-2011, 12:12 PM
I've read a lot of non duality texts. Of course they are interesting. But sometime the teachings are not ... clear at all. Do something to enlight, do nothing, to enlight, just be without effort, make an effort to be without effort ...

Personnaly, I don't like to read "Enlightened" beings who were enlightened without searching for it, because they have no idea of what is the research for enlightenement, all these stages that the seeker must pass. So, when they say 'there is nothing to do', 'there is no enlightenment', or such things, it makes no sense, because, when you are enlightened, even for a millisecond you KNOW it was "that", and this nothing to do is not "being in front of the TV, looking at oprah & having fried potatoes and beer", you must cultivate a ground (doing something) where you "do" nothing ... all these concepts are like silly alchemical texts where paradoxes spring from each sentences ! So even the 'destiny' of enlightenment (you enlightened because it is written somewhere) is true of course, but it do not mean you have really nothing to do, because even that is taken into consideration in the 'destiny', so you have freedom of non choice, and a simili choice is this destiny...

Good luck. Forget all this, and BE NOW, "all the time". That's all.

Andro
01-16-2011, 03:15 PM
Salazius, these are wise words.

The main misunderstanding (IMO) with these things is the failure to comprehend that Non-Resistance DOES NOT equal Non-Doing.

To understand this, one must truly and wholly understand the nature of NEED.

If one doesn't understand NEED, one doesn't understand SHIT. And yes, there IS a double meaning to this.


Good luck. Forget all this, and BE NOW, "all the time". That's all.

Amen.

Aleilius
01-16-2011, 09:30 PM
To understand this, one must truly and wholly understand the nature of NEED.

If one doesn't understand NEED, one doesn't understand SHIT. And yes, there IS a double meaning to this.

Perhaps I am taking your words out of context, and if so, please forgive me. The exact moment you NEED enlightenment is the moment that you inadvertently take two steps back. Do not lust after such things. Do not desire them. These things will not lead to enlightenment. Such things only lead to disappointment. One can be a searcher that is not tainted by vain lust, or desire. Call it love of the Truth, and love of God. Love is the prime attractant.

When the time is right, it will come, and if the time is NOW, then so be it. You cannot mistake it. You will know it. It will HIT you. You will marvel at the divine clarity.

Be weary of somebody that says they're enlightened. If they are, it will readily be perceptible to all via one's words, actions, etc.

Burn your books, and whiten your laton. The light cannot be perceived if it is muddled by dross.

Andro
01-16-2011, 10:49 PM
Perhaps I am taking your words out of context, and if so, please forgive me.

Yes, you are taking it out of context and no, no offense at all :)

I am not talking about 'need for enlightenment'. I am talking about Need. Period. No matter what for, at any given moment.

Not lust, not desire.

NEED.

And I disagree that 'love' is the prime attractant.

What drives the Void to fill itself?


Burn your books, and whiten your laton.

This is not a 'One Size Fits All' slogan. To everything there is a time and a season.


The light cannot be perceived if it is muddled by dross.

Sometimes, this is the ONLY way light can be perceived. Sometimes.

solomon levi
01-17-2011, 12:45 AM
Those perspectives are very nihilist. That's like saying: "what is the point of all this?" Of course, the answer would be: "there is no point."

A man must believe in something, even if it should only prove to be his/her own dreams. We are our own imagination. Let us imagine away! What is enlightenment? Enlightenment is realization, and expression of one's own true nature. It is to be aware of his/her own existence. It is expression of complete awareness. Enlightenment isn't something that can be explained. It is union with divinity. It's something to be experienced. It is the highest form of consciousness. It is a state of mind.

Does enlightenment exist? Yes, and we each choose our own poison.

I don't know, maybe it is a stretch to say these things.

No - for them to be nihilist it would have to be a nihilist viewing them, but people, myself included, view this
purely scientifically or objectively and just happen to see something you call nihilistic. I don't call it that and I've seen it.
It's just how it is. I feel no need to label it as this or that. The ego doesn't exist. That's an objective fact, not a nihilistic
view. And without the ego there is no one to be(come) enlightened. The people who call it "enlightened" still have
false ideas of an ego existing and therefore a desire to label.
As long as enlightenment means "this, not that", you will never know it. I swear to you this is true.

The solution to "a man has to believe in something" is believing without believing. Nor do we have to remain men.
Perhaps believing confines us to being mere men. 99% of the universe is not organic and will not be known by men.

Aleilius
01-17-2011, 01:12 AM
No - for them to be nihilist it would have to be a nihilist viewing them, but people, myself included, view this
purely scientifically or objectively and just happen to see something you call nihilistic. I don't call it that and I've seen it.
It's just how it is. I feel no need to label it as this or that. The ego doesn't exist. That's an objective fact, not a nihilistic
view. And without the ego there is no one to be(come) enlightened. The people who call it "enlightened" still have
false ideas of an ego existing and therefore a desire to label.
As long as enlightenment means "this, not that", you will never know it. I swear to you this is true.

The solution to "a man has to believe in something" is believing without believing. Nor do we have to remain men.
Perhaps believing confines us to being mere men. 99% of the universe is not organic and will not be known by men.

Yeah, that's really thinking outside of the box. I'm not sure how to respond.

Aleilius
01-17-2011, 01:14 AM
Yes, you are taking it out of context and no, no offense at all :)
Yeah, haha, sorry, sometimes it's fun to scribble outside the lines. Art is Art, and requires an Artist.

solomon levi
01-17-2011, 01:22 AM
On doing nothing and not-doing...
Let me note that in a Castaneda context, not-doing means something different than nonduality.
It means going outside your box, not doing what you would normally do - after observing (stalking) yourself,
you learn your habits, patterns, energy expenditures, and then you set a trap or alarm clock that wakes you up when
you're about to do that habit, and then you intentionally do something else, something abnormal for you - because the
shaman wants to ignite other emanations that s/he doesn't use; ignite all of them.

For nonduality, it is just as U.G. said, any effort you make makes it impossible for the effortless one to manifest.
J. Krishnamurti has said it this way: "Total negation is the essence of the positive. When there is negation of all those things that thought has brought about psychologically,
only then is there love, which is compassion and intelligence."
There is some division among nondualists :) Some saying there's nothing to do, some giving exercises.
Sri Ramana Maharshi gave only one exercise: self-enquiry. This is the way I saw that the ego does not exist.

I think the point of doing nothing is that you can do all you want and it won't bring you any closer to this non-experience.
But by all means, do whatever you desire - that is the way you learn. Follow no one.

Let's put it this way - effort is specified and that which you seek is generic/unspecified. It is not something a specified you can do.
This should be obvious/uncontested, no? Specified you is the wrong magnet.

solomon levi
01-17-2011, 01:27 AM
Yeah, that's really thinking outside of the box. I'm not sure how to respond.

Honestly, it stills scares the shit out of me to see this. :)
But perspective is everything in the Ouroboros.
I think we all begin with the dream of being enlightened and powerful men, but the more you see the larger the possibilities.
I noticed recently something like this while considering a new job - I always think of myself as having to find some manual labor;
but now I have this mind that can conceive incredible things - no PHDs for it, but hell, why limit myself just because that's what
I've always known?

Aleilius
01-17-2011, 01:35 AM
Let's put it this way - effort is specified and that which you seek is generic/unspecified. It is not something a specified you can do.
This should be obvious/uncontested, no? Specified you is the wrong magnet.
Effort is effort. To have effort to seek the thing which is unspecified? I guess that's another way of saying that we'll go where nobody has been before.

What you seek is already here? I think that is the essence of enlightenment.

solomon levi
01-17-2011, 02:09 AM
Love or Need.
Difficult words because both can be confused with human love and need which is
different than Universal love and need.
We're really talking about impersonal forces, like gravity or magnetism.
We're talking about laws. Both shamans and Biblical seers called them commands or commandments.

The idea is an absolute necessity, which for me does not exclude love.

For me, the void became aware of itself, just like when we search for the "I" in the self-enquiry
practice, and this is an inward movement, an enfolding, and this also equates to density, like the
density of stars and black holes - the rotating torus - indrawing from one side, spewing out the other...

This is how I see the universe and the microcosm/man creating something from nothing - enfolding, at a
certain density, becomes unfolding.

solomon levi
01-17-2011, 02:25 AM
Effort is effort. To have effort to seek the thing which is unspecified? I guess that's another way of saying that we'll go where nobody has been before.

What you seek is already here? I think that is the essence of enlightenment.

I'm saying you can't have effort to seek the unspecified, for effort is specified. Effort is specified because you conceive a plan.
You don't just expend energy/effort with no direction, no goal. And plan, direction and goal are specified/knowledge, the knower/ego.
So how to be absent the "you" or "I" when all efforts come from the "I"? When that impossibility is seen, effort falls away;
and you won't be able to say it was something you did, because "you" got captured/imprisoned/stopped in the seeing of the impossible scenario.

Aleilius
01-17-2011, 02:30 AM
I'm saying you can't have effort to seek the unspecified, for effort is specified. Effort is specified because you conceive a plan.
You don't just expend energy/effort with no direction, no goal. And plan, direction and goal are specified/knowledge, the knower/ego.
So how to be absent the "you" or "I" when all efforts come from the "I"? When that impossibility is seen, effort falls away;
and you won't be able to say it was something you did, because "you" got captured/imprisoned/stopped in the seeing of the impossible scenario.
To be lost in the abyss, never knowing the knower!

solomon levi
01-17-2011, 02:40 AM
To be lost in the abyss, never knowing the knower!

:)
Or be lost in a dream, identified with our imaginary egos! :)
Some choice, huh?
This is why U.G. says, "if I could give you a taste of it, you wouldn't want to touch it."
It's scary as hell to the ego.

I'm sure one can go back and forth eventually, but those are sorcerers.
Seers just see, they don't care to alter anything. Obviously nothing is seen as wrong - in need of altering.

Aleilius
01-17-2011, 03:17 AM
Or be lost in a dream, identified with our imaginary egos! :)
Now that's a poison I'd choose. Nirvana is bliss. Some dreams are blissful. There is much happiness. ;)

solomon levi
01-17-2011, 08:45 PM
Now that's a poison I'd choose. Nirvana is bliss. Some dreams are blissful. There is much happiness. ;)

I've tried to choose it several times and it just doesn't happen for me anymore. Passed the point of no return... seen too much.
Run while you can. :D

I keep waiting for it to be fun - like don Juan and don Genaro's controlled folly.
There are certainly amazing days that surpass my old life days by far, but there's plenty of ... why not call them nihilist days.
I would like to be in a relationship again, but the thought of getting close to someone is like... "What are you doing? You're going to fuck up their life too!"
I appreciate life much more... have all these intense feelings - compassion, beauty, love, genius... but can't share it with anyone without destroying them.
I'm flippin' King Midas! Only I turn things into P. Mercury instead of gold.

I don't regret it at all. This journey is so much broader than the dreams I used to have. Life is so much larger. And the afterlife is not so 'after' anymore.

III
01-18-2011, 05:51 AM
I've tried to choose it several times and it just doesn't happen for me anymore. Passed the point of no return... seen too much.
Run while you can. :D

I keep waiting for it to be fun - like don Juan and don Genaro's controlled folly.
There are certainly amazing days that surpass my old life days by far, but there's plenty of ... why not call them nihilist days.
I would like to be in a relationship again, but the thought of getting close to someone is like... "What are you doing? You're going to fuck up their life too!"
I appreciate life much more... have all these intense feelings - compassion, beauty, love, genius... but can't share it with anyone without destroying them.
I'm flippin' King Midas! Only I turn things into P. Mercury instead of gold.

I don't regret it at all. This journey is so much broader than the dreams I used to have. Life is so much larger. And the afterlife is not so 'after' anymore.

Hi Solomon,

I've tried to choose it several times and it just doesn't happen for me anymore. Passed the point of no return... seen too much.
Run while you can. :D

By the time one is likely to recognize/say "Run while you can" it is much too late, it can never be as it was before looking.

I would like to be in a relationship again, but the thought of getting close to someone is like... "What are you doing? You're going to fuck up their life too!"

I do understand it. If you accept that you need help, and are in a position to be able to aid somebody going through this process find "Work Necessity" as EJ Gold calls it, and ask coincidence control for an Alchemical partner to work with.

I keep waiting for it to be fun - like don Juan and don Genaro's controlled folly.

I'll point to don Juan and don Genaro as examples of having somebody to work with as being an element of the fun possibly found in controlled folly. When one works with somebody in this way it does become a game of sorts. In doing this many different avenues can be found. A challenge I offered a prospective student who much later became my tantric alchemical partner was to go to the local nudist Halloween costume party. We had a group of about 8 or 9 of us who all went. The challange I offered the prospective new student was to "cross dress (nude of course)" with me, I went as a woman and she went as a man. We had a "body parts" workshop a couple of evenings per week for 6 weeks prior to the party getting all the prosthetic parts ready. People had to deal with their body issues in a big way.

We all learned a lot. One lesson I learned was NEVER shave your body immediately before attaching lots of latex body parts with spirit gum. It's a whole new definition of pain. I wore more makeup than I can believe, had a pink feather boa that started shedding all its stuff on any spirit gum that was exposed and outrageous rhinestone sunglasses. It was a lot of fun and a genuine transformational experience, and it was certainly an exercise in controlled folly.


I appreciate life much more... have all these intense feelings - compassion, beauty, love, genius... but can't share it with anyone without destroying them. I'm flippin' King Midas! Only I turn things into P. Mercury instead of gold.

That is the problem, because of the catalytic nature of what one becomes, only those asking/willing to go through purification and practice Alchemy can associate closely with such because they are going to be continually hitting their shit if not properly prepared. Both partners have to accept and understand that there are intense moods and changes of moods in a repeating process and that they will never again be the same as they were at previous times, constantly evolving. However, having two people changes everything. While each needs individual time the interaction is very important. In effect we play leapfrog, each in turn helping to "swing up" the other.

Having another to Work/play with is much better than being quite alone is my experience. Good luck.

Aleilius
01-18-2011, 06:52 PM
We all learned a lot. One lesson I learned was NEVER shave your body immediately before attaching lots of latex body parts with spirit gum. It's a whole new definition of pain. I wore more makeup than I can believe, had a pink feather boa that started shedding all its stuff on any spirit gum that was exposed and outrageous rhinestone sunglasses. It was a lot of fun and a genuine transformational experience, and it was certainly an exercise in controlled folly.

Eek!

solomon levi
01-18-2011, 11:22 PM
I would like to be in a relationship again, but the thought of getting close to someone is like... "What are you doing? You're going to fuck up their life too!"

I do understand it. If you accept that you need help, and are in a position to be able to aid somebody going through this process find "Work Necessity" as EJ Gold calls it, and ask coincidence control for an Alchemical partner to work with.

Hi III.
Accept that I need help - sounds like AA or something. Well, I guess I know what you mean, and I do think that you know what I mean.
I don't feel that I need help as if there's something wrong with me or that I can be corrected. I just wish there were others who shared
my perceptions and experiences so I didn't feel so cut off from the world. Of course that is a mood swing/perspective. At times I feel
far closer to others than I could have imagined, then at times I feel farther than I could imagine.

I'll look into what you suggested. Thanks.

Loved the controlled folly story. The most I've done in this area, besides driving around with a lady's wig on, was to dress up (down)
as a homeless person and spend the night on the streets of Seattle sharing my wine and listening to stories of real homeless people.

I'm sure you understood III, but i should clarify that when i said I would fuck up someone else's life, I mean make them not so certain
about their world, their ego, etc.

I'd like to explore this in another thread, or maybe it belongs here...

solomon levi
01-19-2011, 01:29 AM
What I wanted to explore is this:
Along with... let's call it 'awakening', come a lot of answers that the sleeper was asking.
But these answers mean nothing to a sleeper, they're inapplicable.
But they ARE the answers!

Quote Einstein - "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking that created them."

Essentially, the questioner dies with awakening, and that answers all your questions. :D
But there are real solutions too, practical things, that just seem contrary to sleeping mode.
Like vulnerability. I choose to live completely vulnerable because then I can touch life and life
can touch me. But try to convince a sleeper of that. It's just wrong. A sleeper will only hurt
themselves by being more vulnerable, because their ego will be there to receive/interpret the pain.
Yet there is no other answer that actually SOLVES the "problem" of relationships.

Once you're awakened, not only are you occupied in applying these new answers, but you are
overwhelmed with new questions that the sleeper could not imagine. Like how to survive in this
insane world as an exile - how to play their game without losing yourself; believing without believing.
And wondering what will happen the next time Infinity comes for you - do I shake it off and try to
hold on to this reality, this body, this life... or what if I relaxed and let It swallow me... will I wake up
somewhere else or still be here? Will they say I died in my sleep? Is this the last sleep I will have?

Seth-Ra
01-19-2011, 06:03 AM
What I wanted to explore is this:
Along with... let's call it 'awakening', come a lot of answers that the sleeper was asking.
But these answers mean nothing to a sleeper, they're inapplicable.
But they ARE the answers!

Quote Einstein - "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking that created them."

Essentially, the questioner dies with awakening, and that answers all your questions. :D
But there are real solutions too, practical things, that just seem contrary to sleeping mode.
Like vulnerability. I choose to live completely vulnerable because then I can touch life and life
can touch me. But try to convince a sleeper of that. It's just wrong. A sleeper will only hurt
themselves by being more vulnerable, because their ego will be there to receive/interpret the pain.
Yet there is no other answer that actually SOLVES the "problem" of relationships.

Once you're awakened, not only are you occupied in applying these new answers, but you are
overwhelmed with new questions that the sleeper could not imagine. Like how to survive in this
insane world as an exile - how to play their game without losing yourself; believing without believing.
And wondering what will happen the next time Infinity comes for you - do I shake it off and try to
hold on to this reality, this body, this life... or what if I relaxed and let It swallow me... will I wake up
somewhere else or still be here? Will they say I died in my sleep? Is this the last sleep I will have?

Ive had a few dreams that reflect a bit about what youre speaking on. The big "trick" is "letting go" - if you let go of the guards, let go of the ego - its only you holding yourself in place - only you making you stuck. Let go. One of my more memorable dreams involved a lion, and i had two options - to fight him and maintain this self, or let him do what he will - go with the flow and explore a new self.
What is madness, but Truth veiled, and what is Truth, but madness to the unaware? (or as you put it - the sleepers)



~Seth-Ra

III
01-19-2011, 08:15 AM
Hi III.
Accept that I need help - sounds like AA or something. Well, I guess I know what you mean, and I do think that you know what I mean.
I don't feel that I need help as if there's something wrong with me or that I can be corrected. I just wish there were others who shared
my perceptions and experiences so I didn't feel so cut off from the world. Of course that is a mood swing/perspective. At times I feel
far closer to others than I could have imagined, then at times I feel farther than I could imagine.

I'll look into what you suggested. Thanks.

Loved the controlled folly story. The most I've done in this area, besides driving around with a lady's wig on, was to dress up (down)
as a homeless person and spend the night on the streets of Seattle sharing my wine and listening to stories of real homeless people.

I'm sure you understood III, but i should clarify that when i said I would fuck up someone else's life, I mean make them not so certain
about their world, their ego, etc.

I'd like to explore this in another thread, or maybe it belongs here...

Hi Solomon,

i should clarify that when i said I would fuck up someone else's life, I mean make them not so certain about their world, their ego, etc.

I always give them a warning to the effect "The price of this is total, everything you believe or think that you know. This process will destroy your fondest dreams, your hopes, your wishes, your fears, your nightmares and everything you believe about yourself and reality itself. Instead, at some point you will KNOW. Nothing is guaranteed. You will die and be reborn over and over. Nothing will ever be the same again. There is no way for you to know now what you are getting into and by the time you truly understand what you have gotten into it is far too late to withdraw. There is no going back once you have started making changes. I have no regrets about following this path".

Getting to that point we have usually watched a few movies such as GROUNDHOG DAY, 12:01, BUTTERFLY EFFECT, RUN LOLA RUN, DEAD MAN and some other cautionary tales.

Everybody you make the choice to work with is a risk, most will be scared off before completing a third cycle, the first two being generally easy and sort of a warmup/trial period. It gets more serious after that as they begin to KNOW THY SELF in a more serious way and that is usually more than enough and they will depart, blaming you.. Nobody who isn't actually pretty desperate actually wants to make real changes in their very being.

Other things you have raised I'll address another time. I'm going to bed. Have fun.

solomon levi
01-19-2011, 07:50 PM
Let me add some more distinguishing features between the waking state and the sleeping.

In the waking state participation is mandatory, but for sleepers it appears to be optional.
I'm talking about participating in your own life - you'd be surprised how often people don't.
Look at this forum for example - 819 members! How many of them post? 19?

Responsibility is the same - an awakened being is responsible for everything in their life. For sleepers, maybe they're responsible, maybe not.

An awakened being is his/her own greatest authority. Anything you want to know, you just place your attention on it and it unfolds.

I'm not certain about this one - maybe it's just me - but I think when you awaken you emphasize sameness and when you're asleep you emphasize differences.
Diversity qualifies as sameness since we are all diverse. By differences I mean the belief that "that is not me", "I would never do that." When you're awake
there's no judgment because you know that if you were in their shoes you'd have done the same; that there was no choice; that ignorance magnetizes
painful learning experiences so that we can be wiser. Ignorance is something we all have the same, even if we're on different levels - ignorance is the same.

There's probably more but I'm getting sleepy too. More later.

Aleilius
01-20-2011, 02:19 AM
Well said SL.

solomon levi
01-20-2011, 04:54 AM
Thank you Aleilius.
Thought of one more - the alchemical magnet and steel.
I suppose this is one of the many laws that one is able to see and practice when one gains a greater perspective.
In the awakened state receiving is emphasized over taking. If you want something you simply make/align yourself
to be its natural partner or magnet. There is no chasing or taking by force. There is only "preparing the bridal chamber".

I did this with one of my visions last night. As it often does, I was driving and couldn't write things down, plus it's good
exercise to try to remember - stretching your mind like a bridge between two worlds... but this wonderful vision that I was
really excited about just suddenly left my mind like waking up from a dream... I couldn't find the thread to it at all. I said to
myself, "not this time", "I'm going to have this vision!". And right when I did I realised not to try and force it or take it but to
become receptive to it. I asked if it would be willing to give itself to me, and I saw a cloaked being approach me and it handed me
a baby wrapped in a blanket, and when I focussed on the baby it transformed before my eyes into the vision, and i grabbed a piece
of it and then the whole thing unfolded and I was back in the middle of it. And then I asked if I could remember this in my "normal"
awareness, and the entity stamped a black cross on my forehead to affirm it.

I'll share the vision with you. You're aware of Schrodinger's cat?

http://www.philosophy.christopher-roberts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Schrodingers-cat-300x242.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat

Well, I was seeing myself in the position of this cat, as an uncertainty, a potential manifestation, living multiple realities
simultaneously and never making a choice - just splitting into infinite possibility. And then, from inside the box, I remembered
the scientist who placed me in the box and became aware of his life of certainty, how it was composed of very definite dreams...
what he had done, what he will do tonight, what he plans on doing the following year. And from my "in the box" perspective, it
was very incredible that this person could filter out all these potentials and view his life as one continuous progression of one entity.
It was amazing! What a dreaming ability we have developed to reduce infinity into such a small package, such certainty.
Castaneda called this "skimming" - how we select certain emanations to emphasize as our reality and ignore/de-emphasize the rest.
Do you realise how long it took us to learn this art? Can you see where we came from, before this narrow dream?

III
01-20-2011, 06:07 AM
Thank you Aleilius.
Thought of one more - the alchemical magnet and steel.
I suppose this is one of the many laws that one is able to see and practice when one gains a greater perspective.
In the awakened state receiving is emphasized over taking. If you want something you simply make/align yourself
to be its natural partner or magnet. There is no chasing or taking by force. There is only "preparing the bridal chamber".

I did this with one of my visions last night. As it often does, I was driving and couldn't write things down, plus it's good
exercise to try to remember - stretching your mind like a bridge between two worlds... but this wonderful vision that I was
really excited about just suddenly left my mind like waking up from a dream... I couldn't find the thread to it at all. I said to
myself, "not this time", "I'm going to have this vision!". And right when I did I realised not to try and force it or take it but to
become receptive to it. I asked if it would be willing to give itself to me, and I saw a cloaked being approach me and it handed me
a baby wrapped in a blanket, and when I focussed on the baby it transformed before my eyes into the vision, and i grabbed a piece
of it and then the whole thing unfolded and I was back in the middle of it. And then I asked if I could remember this in my "normal"
awareness, and the entity stamped a black cross on my forehead to affirm it.

I'll share the vision with you. You're aware of Schrodinger's cat?

http://www.philosophy.christopher-roberts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Schrodingers-cat-300x242.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat)

Well, I was seeing myself in the position of this cat, as an uncertainty, a potential manifestation, living multiple realities
simultaneously and never making a choice - just splitting into infinite possibility. And then, from inside the box, I remembered
the scientist who placed me in the box and became aware of his life of certainty, how it was composed of very definite dreams...
what he had done, what he will do tonight, what he plans on doing the following year. And from my "in the box" perspective, it
was very incredible that this person could filter out all these potentials and view his life as one continuous progression of one entity.
It was amazing! What a dreaming ability we have developed to reduce infinity into such a small package, such certainty.
Castaneda called this "skimming" - how we select certain emanations to emphasize as our reality and ignore/de-emphasize the rest.
Do you realise how long it took us to learn this art? Can you see where we came from, before this narrow dream?

Hi Solomon,

I always called that "allowing" as one can't "make" anything happen, can't take but rather make the preparations and "allow".

http://www.yoyodyneindustries.com/quantumwizardamulet.html

Now these items are supposed to make working ones way through the worlds easier and finding/reattaching ones disconnected areas of consciousness/(versions of self). These are offered as tools along with traing program in their use. I have never used these items yet, but have been engaged in that work for decades local time-line. EJ Gold is a most unusual being and in my estimation very accurate and knowledgeable. He is all about awakening and maintaining one's self in the living waking state and working with LOVE.

horticult
01-20-2011, 08:54 PM
http://www.yoyodyneindustries.com/quantumwizardamulet.html



Nice eco recycle & $ project.
Pity there is no beauty.

Hope I created new universums 4u, achtung trifurcation.

solomon levi
01-21-2011, 11:31 PM
Hi Solomon,

I always called that "allowing" as one can't "make" anything happen, can't take but rather make the preparations and "allow".

http://www.yoyodyneindustries.com/quantumwizardamulet.html

Now these items are supposed to make working ones way through the worlds easier and finding/reattaching ones disconnected areas of consciousness/(versions of self). These are offered as tools along with traing program in their use. I have never used these items yet, but have been engaged in that work for decades local time-line. EJ Gold is a most unusual being and in my estimation very accurate and knowledgeable. He is all about awakening and maintaining one's self in the living waking state and working with LOVE.

Interesting. I researched these devices all night. I think I can make some of them. Should be fun.
Do you, or anyone else, understand how to produce a specific frequency using capacitors, diodes and a 47K ohm resistor (seems like the only constant)?
I don't know how to calculate this - just Ohm's law.
I'd like to try and produce the Solfeggio frequencies as well.
Any help with calculating the electronics please PM me. I'd like to pick your brain. :)

Funny how electricity follows laws similar to water - water that does not wet the hands.

Seth-Ra
01-21-2011, 11:44 PM
Interestingly enough, my new job that ive had for about a month is that of an electrician's apprentice - and also interestingly enough, im cracking open an old door bell, right this minute, for no apparent reason... and the copper scrap wire i have laying around is neat too... no im not building something.... :D yet... ;)

Infact, i just now checked out the link posted for the amulet... ya know, ive had an idea to build something in my head now for acouple of days - similar to that amulet, not quite though... hell i dont know what im building, but im doing something over here... lol XD

I keep wanting to go out in my gravel drive-way and grab some rough quartz for something too... copper, quartz and a few batteries and harmonic pieces of metal... if Alabama becomes some sorta quantum flux/rift/rip/energy storm/falls off the map - in a week or two... it was probably me - and i probably still didnt know what i was building... lol

;)



~Seth-Ra

horticult
01-23-2011, 11:37 PM
another piece of ... something
http://www.zymoglyphic.org/artifacts/disp18.html

Aleilius
01-24-2011, 03:32 AM
Interesting. I researched these devices all night. I think I can make some of them. Should be fun.
Do you, or anyone else, understand how to produce a specific frequency using capacitors, diodes and a 47K ohm resistor (seems like the only constant)?
I don't know how to calculate this - just Ohm's law.
I'd like to try and produce the Solfeggio frequencies as well.
Any help with calculating the electronics please PM me. I'd like to pick your brain. :)

Funny how electricity follows laws similar to water - water that does not wet the hands.
Back in the day when I was going to college (a few years ago) I was doing a dual degree program in electrical engineering & computer science. This was my previous passion before I got into alchemy. I can help you with these things! I used to be a mad-scientist trying to build a time machine. Send me a PM. :)

solomon levi
01-28-2011, 04:52 PM
Back in the day when I was going to college (a few years ago) I was doing a dual degree program in electrical engineering & computer science. This was my previous passion before I got into alchemy. I can help you with these things! I used to be a mad-scientist trying to build a time machine. Send me a PM. :)

Ok, thanks! I got detoured, but I'll PM you as soon as I'm ready to focus on this again. :)