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Leodegarius
03-15-2011, 03:50 AM
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http://www.overlordsofchaos.com/assets/images/alchemy-hermaphrodite.jpg

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An artist once stated, "The world is a fag."
He also said that "if the human being is both a spiritual and a physical being,
then the physical being leans towards the opposite sex.
In the spiritual however, including arts and religious matters,
homosexuality is completely dominant."

I'm a woman.
I'm a brother, I'm a son,
I have facial hair, I have a penis
and I carry a name that doesn't really fit me.

I would like to make it very clear that I'm a man.
I am a male human being.
I'm attracted to women, I like being with women
and I can't think of me wanting it to be any different.

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Shrooms...

There I was, standing at the threshold of knowledge and oblivion
where a great sphinx appeared to me and asked:
"What is the secret of the mind, how does it work and who does it serve?"

I, of course, had no answers to these questions. I wasn't ready for this
and was thus driven into a temporary state of fear and madness.
When I got home and laid down on my bed I had a vision of myself,
but it wasn't me as other people normally perceive me. I was a woman.

A month passed. I was happy with life, I was happy with myself until
this one day when the smile on my face completely disappeared
within the blink of an eye. I realized how different my thinking had become.
My ability to visualize had become heavily improved and my perception
of thought was… well, "different".

I almost instantly went into a state of confused chaos where,
among other things, I realized my gender issues.
It wasn't actually new to me but it had never bothered me that much.

For about two months I suffered from this deep state of depression and fear.
I started having sleep problems such as hearing voices
and having dream-like visions before falling asleep.
I realized these were just some stupid hallucinations but they scared me nevertheless
as my biggest fear was of losing my sanity.
During this phase I also had my first full-blown out-of-body experience.

It's really hard to describe what it's like not knowing
whether to identify as a man or a woman.
I don't think anybody could really understand this state of mind
without ever having experienced it themselves.
One could, however, relate this to the alchemical hermaphrodite
in a psychological sense, or the Hindu Ardhanarishvara.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/__CjMqliGoMc/SdzMEFG2R_I/AAAAAAAABeA/ijB22igCE4s/ARDHANARiSHWARA.jpg

Despite me suffering from deep depression at the time, the separation
of the bodies was among the most pleasurable feelings I have ever felt in my life.
There I was, just hovering above my own bed, light as a feather,
moving and morphing my body with no effort at all.
The vibrations were similar to those I had felt during my
psychedelic experiences but without all the goofy hallucinations.
It was truly an ecstatic state.

I later realized that, after my "blackness" had gone by, during this
"out-of-body" experience I did not identify myself as a gender.
There was no confusion anymore. The two had become one
and thus the two had ceased to exist.

"Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom." They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a likeness; then will you enter the kingdom.""
- The Gospel of Thomas, 22

Although my fear and depression have gone away by now,
the gender dysphoria returned to me the minute I returned
back to my physical body and it is still present up to this day.

There is definitely something spiritual about all of this
and I do believe that sex and gender have their places within
the realms of alchemy. On the other hand, I'm afraid that my
realizations have had me raise even more unanswered questions.

- Leodegarius

Salazius
03-16-2011, 07:27 AM
Hi,

Thanks for sharing, I could label your inner phase as "Rebis" moment, and what is a confirmation is this profound state of depression (black stage), which occurs when the conjunction of Luna and Sol is made (eclipse) in the third Opus.

So, don't worry, it will be nice after that.

Salazius.

Donna Matrix
03-16-2011, 07:47 PM
Something I read a while back said that alot of people are phasing between genders right now as their souls seek a new phase in the age of Aquarius. Some are in female bodies but have decidedly male energies, while the opposite is true as well. No matter what, love yourself. Bravo for the courage to post this.

solomon levi
03-16-2011, 10:34 PM
Yes, thanks for sharing this. I had some similar visions as well - being the opposite sex and being genderless altogether.
For me also it had nothing to do with being "confused" about my sexuality, but was more an exploration of other
potentials of awareness and DNA. It left a lasting impression on me, but perhaps not quite as much as yours Leodegarius.
It's really amazing to explore being a woman. I was surprised how different it was than being a man - like we're different animals.
I had always took for granted that we were more similar. I can really relate to Castaneda's death defier who changed his energy
body to become a woman for a time.

This experience was very pleasurable for me too. It was especially freeing to be genderless - seemed like such a burden how much
we are aware of sex - both gender and the act of sex. But sex is such a big deal when we view the evolutionary process - being able
to multiply, to duplicate yourself, to pass on genetic wisdom - what an amazing discovery it was. A true mystery and unveiling
(piercing the veil).

III
04-06-2011, 05:19 AM
Hi Leodegarius,

An interesting experience. The Alchemical marriage in Alchemy is one of those things that confuses many. It leaves one with energies that may be misinterpreted by many. Though hetero male I can perform the energetic interactions of priest or priestess. Non aware males have a lot of difficulty with me. BE IN LOVE.

Andro
04-06-2011, 05:44 AM
Though hetero male...


I'm attracted to women, I like being with women and I can't think of me wanting it to be any different.

Time after time (after time), I find it interesting to observe how men (and also women sometimes) tend to emphasize their hetero-ness, every time they dabble in gender-bending territory...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Non aware males have a lot of difficulty with me.

I can relate.
✂-----------------------------------

Chenkel
04-06-2011, 06:10 PM
I noticed this too. FWIW (and for the purposes of this discussion, I’ll let you know that I have girl parts, am quite masculine, and this certainly has ties to how I express myself and my sexuality) I get a bit nervous talking about this stuff and I’m always worried that I’m projecting my personal reality onto alchemical thought. People can get some wacky ideas around this... so sometimes I hold my tongue more that I should. Maybe you all can help me out with that...

On one hand I see alchemical teachers that use (hetero) sexuality as a main conerstone of their teachings. Yikes.

On the other hand, I see myself, the androgynous and asexual practioners, the butch nuns and effeminate monks... and I say to myself... yes there’s a solid trend here that has alchemical and spiritual validity. (Though I realize that the alchemical wedding has a much broader significance)

Yes! There’s a place for this discussion in alchemy, and I think we have a great opportunity here to share these experiences, compare, and support. I for one, would love to hear about the experiences of people of diverse genders and sexualities when it comes to this stuff. If you’re game and open, I’d love to hear about how the folks here define themselves (gender/sexuality in day to day life), alongside a discussion of how this applies to their alchemical thoughts/practices. And how many of us are there that are coming to alchemy from a place of gender queerness? Confident straightness? Asexuality? Blurring the lines of their straightness/gayness? Pan-ness? Interesting.

Good on you all for tackling this topic.

Andro
04-06-2011, 07:02 PM
I get a bit nervous talking about this stuff. People can get some wacky ideas around this... so sometimes I hold my tongue more that I should. Maybe you all can help me out with that...

You shouldn't be nervous talking about it. 'People' are what they are, and it's none of your concern to waste your precious time by dealing with narrow-minded Medieval views and cemented hearts.


I see alchemical teachers that use (hetero)sexuality as a main cornerstone of their teachings. Yikes.

I also find this to be a turn-off when the emphasis is on hetero rather than spiritual bonding, regardless of the physical genders involved.


On the other hand, I see myself, the androgynous and asexual practitioners, the butch nuns and effeminate monks...
And I say to myself... yes there's a solid trend here that has alchemical and spiritual validity.

I agree with you about the alchemical and spiritual validity. The finished Philosopher's Stone is after all a Hermaphrodite/Androgynous entity...
And IMO it's easier to resonate with this frequency in a non-hetero body, with no fixed one-sided spiritual gender identity.


Though I realize that the alchemical wedding has a much broader significance.

Absolutely. There is much more to the INTERNAL Alchemical Wedding than non-mainstream sexuality/gender identification.
But I personally think it's a great start NOT to have/perceive one's hetero-ness and one-sided spiritual gender identity as 100% hardwired :)

In Alchemical Matters, heterogeneous is considered superfluous, while homogeneous is considered desirable.


I for one, would love to hear about the experiences of people of diverse genders and sexualities when it comes to this stuff.

I have already presented some of my related perspectives, and how I find my own experience of having a gay male incarnational vehicle to be relevant in Alchemy and Spirituality in general.


If you're game and open, I'd love to hear about how the folks here define themselves (gender/sexuality in day to day life),
alongside a discussion of how this applies to their alchemical thoughts/practices.
And how many of us are there that are coming to alchemy from a place of gender queerness?
Confident straightness? Asexuality? Blurring the lines of their straightness/gayness? Pan-ness? Interesting.

I have attempted such discussions before, and have encountered a certain small (but loud and vulgar) dose of Neo-Neanderthalism, along with a few open minds.

Check out these threads, for starters:

Sexual Orientation and Alchemy (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1197-Sexual-orientation-and-Alchemy)

Ga(y)te Keepers (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1363-Ga%28y%29te-Keepers)

Monroe Encounter (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1418-Monroe-Encounter)

I would certainly love to hear more about your perspectives and your feelings regarding these issues.
✂-----------------------------------

Leodegarius
04-06-2011, 08:50 PM
Time after time (after time), I find it interesting to observe how men (and also women sometimes) tend to emphasize their hetero-ness, every time they dabble in gender-bending territory...
This was my exegesis of a quote from a book written by Icelandic visual artist Sigurdur Gudmundsson. It deals, in a humorous way, with the struggle between the man on the outside, the woman on the inside and the husk that contains the two. He also states that the "world is a fag", meaning that this world we live in is dominated mostly by straight, masculine, heterosexual men.

The point with this was not to emphasize my hetero-ness. I put it in as a preface since I could relate this to my own internal dialogue prior to my gender-bending experience. Prior to all this I actually thought of myself as one of these straight, masculine, heterosexual men, but now that I have learned a bit more about my inner nature I can't really say that I agree with my previous views. Through the years, although I may not have accepted it before, I have had sexual fantasies about men and women alike. I'm bi.

IMO, sexual orientation does not matter when it comes to spirituality. The idea that homosexuality is in some way "evil" is an idea deriving from religious mysticism which has absolutely nothing to do with alchemy or true spirituality in general. Some find their polarity being with the opposite sex, some with the same sex. For others it works either way.


There is much more to the INTERNAL Alchemical Wedding than non-mainstream sexuality/gender identification.
As it says in the Splendor Solis: "At the end of this world, heaven and earth shall meet and come home." My realization is but a glimpse.

Andro
04-06-2011, 09:10 PM
The point with this was not to emphasize my hetero-ness. I put it in as a preface since I could relate this to my own internal dialogue prior to my gender-bending experience. Prior to all this I actually thought of myself as one of these straight, masculine, heterosexual men, but now that I have learned a bit more about my inner nature I can't really say that I agree with my previous views. Through the years, although I may not have accepted it before, I have had sexual fantasies about men and women alike. I'm bi.

Thanks for elaborating. I'm glad you did :)


IMO, sexual orientation does not matter when it comes to spirituality.

In my personal view, it DOES have an influence - but only as one aspect/ingredient, among many others.


Sexual Achemy [...] does not really have to be a man and a woman. Two sexual and spiritual beings is all it takes.
I think some of the famous alchemists were homosexual or at least bi... can't recall which ones since it is not important. All beings are bi (imho), like it or not. ;)

Leodegarius
04-06-2011, 09:19 PM
In my personal view, it DOES have an influence - but only as one aspect/ingredient, among many others.
Sexuality does, yes. But as I see it, I can't really say that sexual orientation in itself does. As dev pointed out in the quote you provided: "Two sexual and spiritual beings is all it takes."

Chenkel
04-06-2011, 09:25 PM
@Androgynus - Agreed with you on all points. Thank you for the links... I would have had a hard time tracking them down. And thank you for fighting the good fight... I can see you’ve put a lot of effort into trying to transmit a queer perspective to folks who might not otherwise experience it. Glad to see that apart from a couple folks this is well received.


You shouldn't be nervous talking about it. 'People' are what they are, and it's none of your concern to waste your precious time by dealing with narrow-minded Medieval views and cemented hearts.

It’s not so much the homophobia that makes me wary. ....It’s because 1) Someone might interpret what I said as a reduction of alchemy to sex - gross (pun intended); and 2) If I spoke openly about this, it would sound like I had a bias against straights (I don’t). I feel very strongly though that the queer experience gives certain queerish segments of society a clear advantage (dare-I-say) when it comes to applying alchemical/spiritual principles. From what you’ve posted elsewhere it seems like you might feel the same.

I felt I needed to put the question out there because I’m aware of how, as a queer person, I process this stuff, but I have no idea how some uh... “Very masculine” or “very feminine” people accomplish this. So yeah... I really enjoyed reading this from someone who identified as a straight dude, and would like to hear more perspectives so that I can understand how people from all walks of life experience this. This isn’t something a dyke-y gal normally says but - I wanna hear the straight perspective :)

Thanks again... And yeah... hope the nasty folks don’t get you down. If they do, think about how many alchemical writers mention their wives in their dedications and writings and smirk a smirk for me. :)

Chenkel
04-06-2011, 09:33 PM
Sexuality does, yes. But as I see it, I can't really say that sexual orientation in itself does. As dev pointed out in the quote you provided: "Two sexual and spiritual beings is all it takes."

I gotta disagree on this one. Orientation matters but only because the alchemical work is not done with another... just you. If you've never had the experience of playing with active and passive principles in a way that queer folks are more likely to experience, you will be at a disadvantage. How can we merge these into the oneness of self if we haven't played with the whole gradient? So I'd have to disagree with dev here too... one spiritual being is all it takes.

Andro
04-06-2011, 09:51 PM
Hi Chenkel - I am glad to see you here! I've sort of been waiting for this!


Hope the nasty folks don’t get you down.

Ha Ha :) Not a chance ! ! !

If self-righteous, narrow-minded and close-hearted insecurities pop up in such discussions - please be assured that they are NOT mine :cool:

And I am well trained in dealing with those types. No problem here :p

And you (as have I) should welcome the Purifying Fires of Adversity. They are a great gift!


Think about how many alchemical writers mention their wives in their dedications and writings and smirk a smirk for me.

Indeed :D Excellent point ! ! !


"The Sages will never admit you to their Order if you do not from this moment renounce one thing which can never go hand in hand with Wisdom.
It is necessary," he added in a whisper bending close to my ear, "It is necessary to renounce all sensual relationships with women."

(Excerpt from http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cdg/index.htm"]Comte de Gabalis - Discourse 2 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/cdg/index.htm))

I can't help noticing that he never mentions to his potential (male) disciple anything about renouncing sensual relationships with men :cool:

Andro
04-06-2011, 10:05 PM
I gotta disagree on this one. Orientation matters but only because the alchemical work is not done with another... just you. If you've never had the experience of playing with active and passive principles in a way that queer folks are more likely to experience, you will be at a disadvantage. How can we merge these into the oneness of self if we haven't played with the whole gradient? So I'd have to disagree with dev here too... one spiritual being is all it takes.

I agree with Dev - regarding matters of sharing sexual and spiritual intimacy.

I agree with you - regarding matters pertaining to the Great Work. One Matter, One Vessel, One Fire. For High Alchemy, Mercury alone is enough.

Quoth Garbage (http://www.lyrics007.com/Garbage%20Lyrics/Androgyny%20Lyrics.html):


You free your mind in your Androgyny
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No sweeter a taste that you could find
Than fruit hanging ripe upon the vine
There's never been an oyster so divine
A river deep that never runs dry.
✂-----------------------------------

Leodegarius
04-07-2011, 01:49 AM
I gotta disagree on this one. Orientation matters but only because the alchemical work is not done with another... just you. If you've never had the experience of playing with active and passive principles in a way that queer folks are more likely to experience, you will be at a disadvantage. How can we merge these into the oneness of self if we haven't played with the whole gradient? So I'd have to disagree with dev here too... one spiritual being is all it takes.
My opinion: Every human being possesses within him/herself a Secret Fire. This is a subtle fire consisting of several forces, the most creative ones being love and sexuality. I see the sexual aspect of alchemy as the art of harnessing these forces as catalysts for spiritual growth. Such practices can include energetic transmissions between two lovers as seen in the Tantric and Taoist traditions of the east, but this is also evident in the ancient initiatic traditions of Sumer and Egypt (Hieros Gamos).

There is much more to it than just that, but to make one thing clear, the alchemist must harness these energies for his own sake, not his partner's. Thus I agree with both you and Androgynus that the great work is an individual process. Moreover, this is just one branch of the alchemical tradition. I could be wrong and you could be right but everyone must find their own path to follow.

III
04-11-2011, 05:47 AM
I am perhaps the only one here engaged in a partnered alchemy. If somebody else is I haven't seen it mentioned. The goal is Alchemical union. We each/both have had our own alchemical marriage. We have worked together for 16 years now in this life and usually do circles together. Mostly we just work together and have completed some number of alchemical cycles of increasing complexity including Tantric and Taoist methods.

I have worked with all female circles and mixed circles. I haven't worked with an all male circle but then haven't been invited either. I can weave the circle whatever the outward genders if the person is up to it. I tend to trigger most everybody's insecurities for some intense purification on the way to weaving the circle.

I'm not sure what the outward genders have to do with it as it is the complementary energies that matter, how those fit together.

Andro
04-16-2011, 01:10 PM
Here is an interesting study on the topic.

I recommend reading it entirely.

Casting Precious Into the Cracks of Doom - Androgyny, Alchemy, Evolution and the One Ring (http://www.zaporacle.com/casting-precious-into-the-cracks-of-doom-androgyny-alchemy-evolution-and-the-one-ring/)

And a quote from the author of the article linked above:


"Much of what binds us into the matrix is surrender to gender stereotypes which encourage us to feel incomplete,
and desperately in need of someone else to find a wholeness that can only be rediscovered within."
✂-----------------------------------

Leodegarius
04-18-2011, 09:57 PM
Thanks, Androgynus. Interesting read.

While I'm at it, here's an article I found in an old magazine several days ago about alchemy and its relations to sexuality, taoism, tantra, etc...

Alchemy10 (http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae175/Soaiznt/Alchemy10.png)
Alchemy11 (http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae175/Soaiznt/Alchemy11.png)
Alchemy12 (http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae175/Soaiznt/Alchemy12.png)
Alchemy13 (http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae175/Soaiznt/Alchemy13.png)

III
04-30-2011, 05:59 AM
There has been a great deal of antipathy towards sexual alchemies from many directions. Pascal Beverly Randolph was one of the first to more or less openly promulgate such ideas in the west in the 1870s inspiring the Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley and many others. It had become far less dangerous as they were not burning anybody at the stake any longer for saying things different from the church. Even in the east there were forms that didn't include physical practice. In many cases the actual sexual practices were taboo, the practice of secret forms was done very cautiously. The Christian and Muslim, societies attempted to suppress such practices wherever they came across it. Yoni and lingam puja changed to symbolic ceremonial practices, at least in open practice forms in most places. These are powerful mystical experiences in the actual practice with those skilled in the art. Our modern western societies just deny that these experiences are "real" or have any existence instead of killing the practitioners. They just try to kill the idea via ridicule and denial. The idea that people may engage in a multi hour sexual meditation is just not acceptable or that there are ecstatic experiences that last for hours. They go out of their way and do studies to "prove" that under 20 minutes is "ideal" for intercourse. There is much ignorance. The alchemical marriage is a first step. The secret keeps itself.

Andro
04-30-2011, 07:28 AM
There has been a great deal of antipathy towards sexual alchemies from many directions.

There has been a great deal of antipathy towards many things, from relatively few directions, but well inserted into the church/media/science-lubricated asses of the masses, making this antipathy appear to come from many directions...

The attainment of prolonged ecstatic states is one of these things, and 'sexual alchemy' (as you call it) is one of the means to attain such states, I can't deny that. But there are others.

The question I really want to ask you, is how you see YOUR perception of what you call 'sexual alchemy' as related/connected to internal experiences of Androgyny (referred to as 'Third Gender') in this thread.


The alchemical marriage is a first step.

Also, what would be your definition of 'alchemical marriage'?

Thanks.

Andro
01-28-2014, 09:08 AM
On the topic of this thread, here's a related quote from the book 'Alchemy Unveiled (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3885-Book-quot-Alchemy-Unveiled)':


"While the Body was materializing, a division of the sexes occurred.
Originally, in Paradise, the Human Being was androgynous (Man and Woman), Adam-Eve in one form.

After the fall into the coarse Materia of the lower World, in accordance with the outer body, the Human Being was divided into two sexes.

In those Human Beings where the solar Light-Principle was predominant, the outer body took the shape of a male.
On the other hand, in those Human Beings where the moist lunar Principle was predominant, the earthly body took the form of a female.

The later urge of the sexes towards each other is, in reality, a dark and misguided aspiration towards our own rebirth and renewal of our Being.
It is, in reality, an aspiration towards the unification of Sol and Luna in a Human Being, that is, to reclaim the once blissful State of the immortal paradisaical Hermaphrodite.

Basically, the Human Being wants to procreate itself anew, in order to live eternally like the Angels.
Yet, we produce only mortal descendants because the two Principles, Sol and Luna (Fire and Water), became separated in the Human Being through the fall."I'm not posting this quote with the intention to anthropomorphize alchemy or to 'alchemize' sexuality. Others have done plenty of that already.

My point is that, regardless of application, the 'Alchemical Marriage' is internal, between the Subject Matter and Itself, no matter what the 'Subject Matter' is.