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Leodegarius
03-15-2011, 05:32 PM
Ant societies have division of labour, communication between individuals, and an ability to solve complex problems. These parallels with human societies have long been an inspiration and subject of study.

Man ; Nature

I've noticed that many people in today's world see these as some two separate vehicles. There's human society and then there's nature. Sure, we form societies, we build cities, we operate factories, we drive cars, we pollute the earth more than any other species, etc. but what makes all of this any less part of nature than, say, ants or honeybees?

http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/085/283/original/philosoraptor.jpg

Andro
03-15-2011, 08:15 PM
To start an attempt to partially answer, I'll quote myself from another thread:


The human form is double-animated:

First - by the Individual (Human) Soul/Higher Self using the body as an incarnational vehicle.

Second - by the Nature/Earth Spirit animating the physical body itself.

The mineral, vegetable and animal kingdoms (with the exception of most humans on earth) are animated only by the Nature/Earth Spirit.

Were humans to identify exclusively with their physical bodies, they would be no different than animal group souls.

The difference in humans lies with the individual Higher Self connection. Humans and their Higher Selves are on a different Path of experience than Nature Spirit incarnations.

There is much more to it, but that's a starter...

Leodegarius
03-15-2011, 09:07 PM
Thank you. Interesting point.

But despite this individual Higher Self connection, it could be said that we are also nature's "worst enemy" here on the physical plane.
Higher forms of intelligent beings such as ourselves have the potential to create. But we also tend to lean towards destruction. Couldn't the same be said about nature itself and the macrocosmos in general?

rogerc
03-15-2011, 11:58 PM
What Androgynus says is true about the dual nature of man,..... and don't be so hard on mankind the rest of nature as species go isn't any different about proliferating out of control but mother nature has a way of raning all species including mankind in, there called nautural disasters.. ....and since we are on the subject of ants there is a species of carpenter ant in the amazon rainforest I believe and I will use this one as an example cause just like man this species cuts down the forest and proliferates out of control and begins to destroy the jungle in favor of producing habitations for itself through overpopulation(just like man) and just about that time every season the trees release a spore(remember The Happening) that invades the ant internally and begins to grow but not without first turning the ant into a zombie and diverting it from its usual destructional behavior instead.....http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-03/04/four-new-species-amazon-zombie-ant-fungus" Once infected by spores, the worker ants, normally dedicated to serving the colony, leave the nest, find a small shrub and start climbing. The fungi directs all ants to the same kind of leaf: about 25 centimetres above the ground and at a precise angle to the sun (though the favoured angle varies between fungi). How the fungi do this is a mystery. Before dying, ants anchor themselves to the leaf, clamping their jaws on the edge or a vein on the underside. The fungi then takes over, turning the ant's body into a spore-producing factory. It lives off the ant carcass, using it as a platform to launch spores, for up to a year.

Chemicals from this global group of fungi, known as Cordyceps, have been a part of traditional medicine for thousands years, and part of Western medicine for the last 50.

Organ transplant patients, for example, receive ciclosporin -- a drug that suppresses the immune system, reducing the chance the body will reject the new tissue. Chemicals from this same fungal group are also used for antibiotic, antimalarial and anticancer drugs.

The fungi help the forest by keeping ant populations in check. "All of the problems with global ant infestations, for example the Argentine fire ant," Hughes said, "is because the ants have escaped their natural enemies. Then they become a pest."

The point I would like to make here is that just like man the ant's drive to proliferate isn't any more or less "evil" than man's is, it is programmed into him just like the ant by nature by the same communicating spirit that the alchemists called..... "mercury", ...mercury is the communicator and messenger of the Gods, through this communicating spirit the will of nature is done, and fungi as direct animal kingdom specified corpreal emanations of the spirtus mundi in this case go they are very interesting and mystical substances did you know they contain the most number of chromosomes than any other species although they have no limbs,.... what do you think all the information in its dna is written for, especially if the human dna only has 46 which is enough space to encode the entire human genome therein,...while the adder tongue, also a fungal spore plant has a 1200 chromosome count. This chromosome count is much like the ram capacity in a computer where "infomation" is burned into.

Leodegarius
03-16-2011, 12:56 AM
Thank you rogerc, nice point. This I found really interesting:


....and since we are on the subject of ants there is a species of carpenter ant in the amazon rainforest I believe and I will use this one as an example cause just like man this species cuts down the forest and proliferates out of control and begins to destroy the jungle in favor of producing habitations for itself through overpopulation(just like man) and just about that time every season the trees release a spore(remember The Happening) that invades the ant internally and begins to grow but not without first turning the ant into a zombie and diverting it from its usual destructional behavior instead.....http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/...bie-ant-fungus" Once infected by spores, the worker ants, normally dedicated to serving the colony, leave the nest, find a small shrub and start climbing. The fungi directs all ants to the same kind of leaf: about 25 centimetres above the ground and at a precise angle to the sun (though the favoured angle varies between fungi). How the fungi do this is a mystery. Before dying, ants anchor themselves to the leaf, clamping their jaws on the edge or a vein on the underside. The fungi then takes over, turning the ant's body into a spore-producing factory. It lives off the ant carcass, using it as a platform to launch spores, for up to a year.

I would like to point out that I was not trying to demonize our species, far from it. I would not consider any of these things "evil" as it is all part of nature's way of creating, destroying and reconstructing things. My point was simply that both man and nature seem to work in similar ways (the microcosmos within the macrocosmos).

Leodegarius
03-16-2011, 05:12 AM
To start an attempt to partially answer, I'll quote myself from another thread:



The mineral, vegetable and animal kingdoms (with the exception of most humans on earth) are animated only by the Nature/Earth Spirit.

Were humans to identify exclusively with their physical bodies, they would be no different than animal group souls.

The difference in humans lies with the individual Higher Self connection. Humans and their Higher Selves are on a different Path of experience than Nature Spirit incarnations.

There is much more to it, but that's a starter...

This suddenly reminded me of something I read in Alchemy Unveiled by Johannes Helmond:


Thus, to some extent, the Earth is an in-between Kingdom (Interregnum) between the Upper and the Lower, between the World of the Angels and the dark Kingdom of the infernal demons. The Egyptians possessed the ability to profound thinking and no one examined Nature more meticulously than they did. They depicted this in a Hieroglyph which showed the Human Being as a heavenly Creature and at the same time as an animal. This is illustrated by the form of a Sphinx, which is a Lion with a human head, with a small upright human figure standing between the paws. Between the Animal-Kingdom and the inhabitants of the Lightworld beyond, stands the Human Being, half Animal and half Angel. When the Human Being turns towards the animal, it then devours the Angel. Should the Human Being nourish (sustain) himself with the nourishment of the heavenly Spirit, the Angel conquers the Animal, and the Human Being enters into the Temple of the eternal Light.

Awani
03-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Man ; Nature
I've noticed that many people in today's world see these as some two separate vehicles.

Man and Nature are the same, from my perspective. I don't see us as anymore special than ants. We just have different skills. Man is an imagination machine.

:cool:

Andro
03-16-2011, 11:18 AM
Man and Nature are the same, from my perspective. I don't see us as anymore special than ants. We just have different skills. Man is an imagination machine.

No, not special.

Different - yes. Different incarnational Paths, as well.

Imagination... Absolutely...

Well summed up IMO.
✂------------------------------

Man and Nature can be enemies or allies.

Nature can be a far 'worse enemy' to Nature than Man, just as Man can be a far 'worse enemy' to Man than Nature.

A wider perspective is necessary to see the larger picture. Nature can also be Man's 'worst enemy' at times. See recent events.

Leodegarius
03-16-2011, 06:01 PM
Man and Nature are the same, from my perspective. I don't see us as anymore special than ants. We just have different skills. Man is an imagination machine.

:cool:

Couldn't have said it better myself. :)

http://keepmusicevil.freeforums.org/download/file.php?avatar=934_1254193093.jpg

solomon levi
03-19-2011, 07:47 PM
Man ; Nature

I've noticed that many people in today's world see these as some two separate vehicles. There's human society and then there's nature. Sure, we form societies, we build cities, we operate factories, we drive cars, we pollute the earth more than any other species, etc. but what makes all of this any less part of nature than, say, ants or honeybees?



This, as with everything, is a matter of definitions. People of different consciousness will have different context and definition of man and nature.
Ultimately, all is one. But at various levels man may be perceived as animal, as mind, as emotive energy, etc.
I will always bow to Oneness ultimately, but I can understand the argument that the human mind is foreign to nature when we define nature
as some sort of harmonious equilibrium that is achieved in areas not "infected" by "civilised" man.
The mind does not belong to man; it possesses man. If man "dies" then he can be "reborn" as a possessor of a mind.

Andro
03-19-2011, 09:09 PM
The mind does not belong to man; it possesses man. If man "dies" then he can be "reborn" as a possessor of a mind.

Even so, we are still in the polarity realm of possessor and possessed. Like in the story of The Separator, where the two polarity archetypes fight one another over ownership of the Knight's soul.

In Astrology, the First House is the House of Self, and ruled by Aries/Mars. The Second House is (also) the House of Possessions (what one has/owns), and it's ruled by Taurus/Venus.

But an alchemical marriage between Mars and Venus will give birth to Oneness/Unity in this regard. The roles of 'possessor' and 'possessed' are no longer being auditioned for :)

Eventually, all 12 Astrological Signs/Houses/Archetypes converge to the Center...

Quoth Flannery O'Connor, quoting Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin):


"Everything That Rises Must Converge"

solomon levi
03-21-2011, 07:48 PM
:D
You have a one-track mind. :)
I understand that that view is really significant to you, but you have to allow for dualistic views.
Not everyone is interested in unity. Some things are more possible in duality; other things are more possible in unity.
I'm ok with going to the polarity realm of possessor and possessed. :)
It is apparent/obvious that we are not meant to be born in unity and stay in unity and die in unity. Duality has its place.
Since I have had "experiences" in nonduality, duality has become more fun that it used to be, more light-hearted - controlled folly.

Anyway, it is my intention to be able to hold conversations on polarity/duality as well as nonduality.
I see no harm in speaking about man and nature, mind and self, etc.
These are places that all must pass through. I won't discount them just because I've discovered nonduality.
I can remember when they were real for me. Haha! Remember! As if duality isn't real for me everyday. :)
My point is, it is sometimes useful to speak in and/or about duality/polarity, (especially if one hasn't yet discovered nonduality).

Are you going to keep correcting my views until all I speak about is the nondual???
Why are you targeting me? Do we have beef? Let's keep it vegetarian. :)


From what I've seen there are two ways to go about knowledge and power: the dual and the nondual, or thinking and intent.
The dual/thinking doesn't actually DO anything, but for some reason it is still necessary.

Or, to quote Castaneda :)
"In examining the first attention, the new seers realized that all organic beings, except man, quiet down their agitated trapped emanations so that those emanations can align themselves with their matching ones outside. Human beings do not do that; instead, their first attention takes an inventory of the Eagle's emanations (think "electromagnetic spectrum") inside their cocoons. Human beings take notice of the emanations they have inside their cocoons, no other creatures do that. The moment the pressure from the emanations at large fixates the emanations inside, the first attention begins to watch itself. It notes everything about itself, or at least it tries to, in whatever aberrant ways it can. This is the process seers call taking an inventory.
I don't mean to say that human beings choose to take an inventory, or that they can refuse to take it. To take an inventory is the Eagle's command. What is subject to volition, however, is the manner in which the command is obeyed.
Although I dislike calling the emanations commands, that is what they are: commands that no one can disobey. Yet the way out of obeying the commands is in obeying them.
In the case of the inventory of the first attention, seers take it, for they can't disobey. But once they have taken it they throw it away. The Eagle doesn't command us to worship our inventory; it commands us to take it, that's all.
The emanations inside the cocoon of man are not quieted down for purposes of matching them with those outside. This is evident after seeing what other creatures do. On quieting down, some of them actually merge themselves with the emanations at large and move with them.
But human beings quiet down their emanations and then reflect on them. The emanations focus on themselves. Human beings carry the command of taking an inventory to its logical extreme and disregard everything else. Once they are deeply involved in the inventory, two things may happen. They may ignore the impulses of the emanations at large, or they may use them in a very specialized way.
The end result of ignoring those impulses after taking an inventory is a unique state known as reason. The result of using every impulse in a specialized way is known as self-absorption."

Andro
03-21-2011, 08:37 PM
You have a one-track mind. :)

You are entitled to perceive me as such.

It's your right to be wrong.

(Just kidding :))


These are places that all must pass through.

Indeed. Couldn't agree more.


Are you going to keep correcting my views until all I speak about is the non-dual???

I am not 'correcting' your views. I am presenting mine. No-one can claim to 'correct' someone else's views, only present their own perspectives. Is there a problem with that?

In the end, it's about what works for you. I believe we all need to go extreme on individuality in order to reach our Center, because it is only from this Center that we can REALLY connect.

Quoth Pierre Teilhard de Chardin:


To love is to approach each other center to center.

And 'love' is a WAY to small and problematic word for this...

This Center/Axis Mundi or whatever we call it - is the same for everyone and everything. See the pic in my signature line.
It's the key ring that connects us all, but every key opens a different lock in the greater scheme of things. I think the allegory is clear enough.

By the way, the key ring analogy also goes for man and nature, the initial topic of this thread.


Why are you targeting me?

I am not targeting you. You have merely posted some perspectives which triggered my own perspectives, which just so happen to differ.

If two or more people agree in a conversation, more often than not they were most likely already in agreement before the conversation even started. Not always, but mostly...


Do we have beef? Let's keep it vegetarian. :)

Hitler was a vegetarian but apparently also had a lot of beef - so the two don't necessarily contradict.
Or maybe too many vegetarians in power are repressing their appetite for meet, resulting in actual war (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2054-war) - just to compensate :)
Or maybe I'm just being bitchy and moody because I'm menstruating, coming into power :)

(Those last statements were on a humorous note... )

:)

solomon levi
03-21-2011, 09:10 PM
:D

Ok. I just felt there are hundreds of posts here that we could "correct" with nondual versions - just wondered why you hit me twice recently -
hadn't seen you doing it to others.
I'm glad we can keep it light-hearted. There's enough conflict in the world. I don't care to add to it today. :)

Well, as you may have seen from my thread on "inner and outer worlds", I'm not sure what works for me. :) I'm vacillating (probably menstruating as well).
Yup. My womb energy is definitely menstruating. :D lol! No wonder my twat feels funny. lmao!

Andro
03-21-2011, 09:35 PM
Yup. My womb energy is definitely menstruating. :D lol! No wonder my twat feels funny. lmao!

That's the spirit :)

Donna Matrix
03-21-2011, 11:31 PM
I beleive the word MAN is a derivative of the sanskrit for mind-MANAS. Perhaps because we are the animal with a mind? Well, at least some of us.

Leodegarius
03-22-2011, 05:50 PM
I beleive the word MAN is a derivative of the sanskrit for mind-MANAS. Perhaps because we are the animal with a mind? Well, at least some of us.

That depends on how you define the word "mind". I think all animals possess a mind of some sort. What mainly separates the human mind from the animal is that animals more often just act according to their natural instincts while humans are capable of deeper thinking. But that doesn't mean that animals can't think or learn.

Regarding the subject of dualism... As a GDer, my personal views are pretty much in line with the following essay...


What is the position of Golden Dawn initiates on the subject of dualism? The answer to that question depends upon what one defines as being “dualist”. Golden Dawn initiates are NOT dualist as normally regarded by Christian, Gnostic and Zarathustrian doctrines. Thus we don’t believe in an evil force called “Satan”, or as the demiurge “Yaldabaoth”, or as “Ahriman”, in opposition to a good force called “God” or “Ormus”, etc. But we do believe in the two great polarities throughout nature, such as day and night, light and darkness, or male and female, etc. But as Hermeticists we also believe that these two great polarities are both part of GOD or The ALL. This relates the Hermetic tradition also with the Sabbathian Qabalistic tradition, where Evil is seen as part of GODHEAD. The seeming opposition between Evil and Good is only seen as antagonistical when viewed from the limited human perspective, but not if seen from the perspective of Godhead, where all opposites are reconciled. Here one must remember the teachings concerning the Triangle.

Golden Dawn initiates don’t regard physical existance to be an illusion or evil. We believe that the World we are living in actually exists. However as Hermeticists we believe neither in “Matter” nor in “Spirit” as absolutes in themselves, but rather regard these being denominative expressions signifying the two extremes in the continuum of frequency in what we could call a “substance”. Thus there exist only an illusion regarding what constitutes the true nature of matter, rather than that the world of action doesn’t exist as a phenomenon. There is no actual differentiation between LIGHT (L.V.X.), LIFE and CONSCIOUSNESS, or between the Subject(ive) and the Object(ive).

Thus Golden Dawn initiates are NOT dualist in the sense of separating Spirit from Matter, or Soul from Body, which is often implied when defining the word “dualism”. But this kind of dualism is also related to the one I mentioned previously, as expressed through Gnosticism and some forms of Christianity, where matter or worldly existence is regarded as being the realm of the Evil One, while heaven is restricted to God.

It is true that Hermeticists and Qabalists, as well as Golden Dawn initiates, regard matter as in a fallen state. But with this fall also God fell down into the realm of Man and the World of Action and Manifestation. This created the separation of the Goddess aspect of Godhead from the God aspect, the former being trapped in Matter below while the latter was restricted to the Heavens above. But that both are of a divine nature is clearly evidenced by the Hermetic axiom “that which is above is as that which is below, and that which is below is as that which is above”.

This is seen in many faiths and pantheons, even in the Gnostic worldview where Sophia is trapped in matter. But Matter was not created by an evil entity, as in the Gnostic narration; it was created by the supreme Godhead (God-Goddess). But because of a cosmic catastrophe the feminine aspect of Godhead, the Divine and Great Holy Mother, became trapped in our World. In Qabalah this is known as the Shekinah, the presence of God in the World of Action. In the Tantric myth this referred to as Shakti, who ever longs to unite with her heavenly consort Siva.

Thus the Great Work lays its emphasis upon this Alchemical Wedding between Heaven and Earth, aiming to erase any notions of separation between them. In Tantra and Yoga this is pictured in the awakening of the Serpent Power or Kundalini (the Shakti power), while in the Qabalah this is described as the “raising of the sparks” in the Tikkun ha-Olam. This is furthermore depicted in the Rite of the Qabalistic Cross. In its simple symbolism this rite resumes the entire purpose of the Great Work; the UNION of the Opposites, both in a “horizontal” and “vertical” manner. It is the foremost symbol of the Alchemical Wedding which conceives the Christos in the heart; the Universal Androgyne or Alchemical Hermaphrodite.

But it must be emphasized here that the primary goal in Hermetic Magic and the Great Work doesn’t imply any “ascension”, as is normally implied by this term; the main objective is to invoke and have the L.V.X. descending into matter (body) to raise its vibrations. For me “ascension” often implies leaving the body and matter behind, which in my opinion is counterproductive for all true spiritual work; it is a sign of escapism rather than spiritual attainment. The goal of the Great Work should be to integrate spirit and body into One Whole Unit for it to be able to create this Holy Alchemical Hermaphrodite. The outcome of this is cosmic consciousness or unity with the ALL – which is both spirit and matter, transcendent and immanent.

I furthermore quote the Splendor Solis regarding this subject...


HERMES, a Father of Philosophy, says: "It is indeed needed that at the End of this World, Heaven and Earth should meet and come home." Meaning by Heaven and Earth the aforesaid two Operations but many doubts arise, before the Work is finished.