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Nibiru
06-06-2011, 03:47 AM
Hello, I understand that nature is the best teacher of alchemy but in the hopes to further advance my wisdom through reading I've acquired a few texts over the last several months. I would like to ask those of you who are familiar with some of the texts that I've been studying, which ones you would consider more valuable to the beginning alchemist. I'm sure there are jewels hidden within all of the following, my problem is that I feel I'm reading from too many sources of knowledge and possibly adding to my confusion...

Some texts from my library:

"Golden Chain of Homer" Kirchweger
"Real Alchemy" Bartlett
"The Way of the Crucible" Bartlett
"Alchemist's Handbook" Albertus
"Spagyrics" Junius
"The Art of Distillation" French
"Treatise on the Great Art" Pernety
"Le Mystere des Cathedrales" Fulcanelli
"The Philosophers' Stone" Farrell
"Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum Et Theosophicum" Welling
"Sacred Geometry, Philosophy and Practice" Lawlor
"Sacred Geometry" Lundy
"Pyramid Yantra for Vaastu" Dhara Bhatt
"Slim Spurling's Universe" Garrison
"The Tree of Life" Regardie
"Initiation into Heretics" Bardon

Green Lion
06-06-2011, 04:24 AM
Hi Nibiru

Here are the good texts for alchemy:
"Golden Chain of Homer" Kirchweger
"Treatise on the Great Art" Pernety
"Le Mystere des Cathedrales" Fulcanelli
"Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum Et Theosophicum" Welling

Good texts for spagery:
"Alchemist's Handbook" Albertus
"Spagyrics" Junius
"The Art of Distillation" French

Ghislain
06-06-2011, 08:06 AM
The book that got me on the road Nibiru was,

Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse

Ghislain

Hellin Hermetist
06-07-2011, 08:24 PM
The following seems like genuine alchemical treatises to me. You can download most, if not all of them, from the internet for free.

- "New Light of Alchemy" Sethon
- "Cinq Livres" Nicolas Valois (No English translation)
- "Dwellings of the Philosophers" Fulcanelli
- Works of Bernand Compte la marche Trevisane (All his works, especially his epistle to Thomas of Bononia, maybe the most important of the treatises which I had the fortune to study. Unfortunately the English translation of the treatise is very bad.I am looking for a French translation for some time now but I wasn't able to find one till now. Any help at this point is quite welcome).
- "Ripley Revived" Philalethes

These are the treatises who has helped me most to establish a hermetical worldview (kosmotheasis).

As for archemy and spagyrics, I would rather suggest the works of Basil Valentine, especially his Last Will and Testament.

Illen A. Cluf
06-07-2011, 11:14 PM
Out of the list, the following have been most helpful to me:

"Golden Chain of Homer" Kirchweger
"Treatise on the Great Art" Pernety
"Le Mystere des Cathedrales" Fulcanelli

There are numerous others that have also been helpful, including:

"Summa Perfectionis", Geber
"Hermes Revealed", Cyliani
Works of Arnold of Villanova
Works by Philalethes
Works by Sendivogius

The more you read, the better your understanding of the hermetic philosophy.

Nibiru
06-10-2011, 07:24 AM
I'd just like to thank everyone for their input!! I've just been reading from so many different authors that I fear I may be complicating the process. I am noticing the mutual connections of the teachings though, which seems important...

Hellin Hermetist
06-10-2011, 09:50 AM
Hi Illen Cluf and Green Lion,

Do you believe that the "Golden Chain of Homer" is a work at the same spirit with the works of other authors like Trevisan or Valois. It doesn't seem really alchemical to me.

Green Lion
06-10-2011, 11:29 AM
Hi Hellin Hermetist

Yes, for me the "Golden Chain of Homer" is a part of the biggest books of alchemy. You are not the only alchemist who makes the remark as which this book treats more of spagyric. But when I ask them for what they understood of this work, often I realize that they did not enough read it. So that this book carries its fruits, you should not hesitate to make the proposed experiments (as Guhr and Archeus). And especially, it is necessary to compare the observation of the Nature and this book. First of all: read, read and reread this book.

Then, it is necessary to know that there is the third part in the "Golden Chain of Homer". Two different versions exist of this third part. The one is only pursuing the developments of the observations of the nature. Other version gives very precise alchemical and spagyrical protocols.

Finally, it exists a very rare manuscript writes by Naxagoras which is a theoretical and practical analysis of the Golden Chain of Homer". There is a French handwritten version in the library of the University of Glasgow there.

Hellin Hermetist
06-10-2011, 04:34 PM
Yes, for me the "Golden Chain of Homer" is a part of the biggest books of alchemy. You are not the only alchemist who makes the remark as which this book treats more of spagyric. But when I ask them for what they understood of this work, often I realize that they did not enough read it. So that this book carries its fruits, you should not hesitate to make the proposed experiments (as Guhr and Archeus). And especially, it is necessary to compare the observation of the Nature and this book. First of all: read, read and reread this book.


Then I shall read again the text and proceed to some practical experiments. Most of them are of the simplest nature and the only thing that they require is patience. It seems that you had some interesting results from that experiments. Fortunately I have the good French translation. Not the one of Backstrom.



Then, it is necessary to know that there is the third part in the "Golden Chain of Homer". Two different versions exist of this third part. The one is only pursuing the developments of the observations of the nature. Other version gives very precise alchemical and spagyrical protocols.


Thanks for that info. Is this the second version (spagyrical/alchemical protocols) of the third part?
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/goldenchainIII.html



Finally, it exists a very rare manuscript writes by Naxagoras which is a theoretical and practical analysis of the Golden Chain of Homer". There is a French handwritten version in the library of the University of Glasgow there.


That's sounds very interesting too. It seems that you had the fortune to study some of the rarest manuscripts. I have read about Naxagoras only form the references at the works of Fulcanelli. Can I find any of his treatises at the net?

Thanks again for these infos. Very appreciated.

Green Lion
06-10-2011, 05:05 PM
Thanks for that info. Is this the second version (spagyrical/alchemical protocols) of the third part?
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/goldenchainIII.html
Yes, it is.


That's sounds very interesting too. It seems that you had the fortune to study some of the rarest manuscripts. I have read about Naxagoras only form the references at the works of Fulcanelli. Can I find any of his treatises at the net?

Here are some works of Naxagoras:
- Alchymia Denvdata Revisa Et Avcta
- Chymischer und alchymistischer particularzeiger
- Experientia Naxagorae, secundum annulos platonicos et Catenam auream Homeri (It is this work which is a comment of the "Golden Chain of Homer")
- Ausführliche Beschreibung der unweit Zwickau in Meissen zu Niederhohendorff und anderer umliegenden Orten gefundene boldischen Sande
- Chymischer oder Alchymistischer Particular Zeiger
- Sancta veritas hermetica, seu, Concordantia philosophorum consistens in sale et sole vel Mercurio et Sulphure
- Aureum vellus oder güldenes Vließ
- Abgetrungende und abgezwungene Urthels-Frage, welche er der gantzen ehrbaren Welt zu einer rechtlichen Erkändtnüs zu Rettung seiner Ehren darlegt und fürträgt
Regrettably, I know no web site which allows to read them.
Furthermore, there is almost no translation …
It would be from the very big interest that somebody can all translate them.

Hellin Hermetist
06-10-2011, 06:48 PM
Ok, I can see the answer now. It seems there was a problem.
So the treatises haven't been translated. That's a pity. Thanks for the info.

Rueb
06-10-2011, 07:44 PM
Ausführliche Beschreibung der unweit Zwickau in Meissen zu Niederhohendorff und anderer umliegenden Orten gefundene boldischen Sande ...

This one I have found here:
His name seems to be Johann Neidhold.
german only

http://dfg-viewer.de/v2/?set%5Bimage%5D=1&set%5Bzoom%5D=default&set%5Bdebug%5D=0&set%5Bdouble%5D=0&set%5Bmets%5D=http%3A%2F%2Fdigitale.bibliothek.uni-halle.de%2Foai%2F%3Fverb%3DGetRecord%26metadataPre fix%3Dmets%26identifier%3D661438

Nibiru
06-10-2011, 08:00 PM
Hello Green Lion!! My version of The Golden Chain is very small(61 pages). It ends at chapter 16 "What putrefaction is", does my version of the book even have the third part??

Green Lion
06-10-2011, 08:04 PM
No Nibiru, Sorry.

Hellin Hermetist
06-10-2011, 08:20 PM
Nice work Rueb. Unfortunately, I don't speak German. It's nice to see how many things we can find at the net.

Hellin Hermetist
06-11-2011, 09:20 AM
The third part of Golden Chain of Homer seems to have some common points with the Last Will and Testament of Basil Valentine, like the reference to the metallic ferch. Quite interesting is that there is another work of Kirchweger, named Microscopium Basil Valentine. This last work seems to be rare. Has anyone study it?

Green Lion
06-11-2011, 09:37 AM
Microscopium Basil Valentine is easier to find.
Kessinger reprints made a publishing under the name of “Microscopium Basilii Valentini: Sive Commentariolum Et Cribrellum Uber Den Grossen Kreuzapfel Der Welt”.
I possess it, but it is in German and was never translated.

Illen A. Cluf
06-11-2011, 04:54 PM
Then, it is necessary to know that there is the third part in the "Golden Chain of Homer". Two different versions exist of this third part. The one is only pursuing the developments of the observations of the nature. Other version gives very precise alchemical and spagyrical protocols.


Hello Helllin and Green Lion,

Unfortunately, this third part is a fake and was not written by Anton Josef Kirchweger or Homeri (Herverd von Farchenbrunn). This is confirmed in the notes of the book itself (from the "true brothers of the deceased author and sole legitimate heirs to this book...":

"To the last edition was added a third but false and interpolated part which does not stem from our school."

I would focus primarily only the original first two parts. The third part is noticeably different in style, and seems to produce only a form of brass which looks like gold.

The first two parts contain some incredible insights, but may be more Archemical than alchemical. In any case it is extremely instructional, and as Green Lion states, will require many re-readings and practices.

teofrast40
06-11-2011, 09:16 PM
hi,
IMHO many concepts in the first two books of kirchweger, namely the rotation of elements, the fact that Nature moves from one state to another only by their medium, the fixation of volatile and the volatilisation of the fixed, come from (pseudo)Lulle.
this author, today a little misregarded, is indeed quite seminal, as you can find his influence in pretty much everything that came after.
with humility
t

Hellin Hermetist
06-12-2011, 01:14 PM
As we are speaking for the texts, has anyone a French translation of The Answer of Bernandus Trevisan to Thomas of Bononia?

Andro
06-12-2011, 01:25 PM
We are quite an international and multilingual bunch here, and many of us also have a good command of the English language.

We have folks who speak German, French, Spanish, Italian, Greek, with very good English as well.

And if we look hard I'm sure we could also find Latin or Sanskrit or Hebrew or Arabic or Chinese...

I don't see why we could not work out some translation agreements for the interested parties, based on a platform of fair energy exchange...

Hellin Hermetist
06-12-2011, 02:27 PM
It is true that in many cases the French translations are far superior than the English one. See for example the French translation of the "Aurea Catena Homeri" compared to the English translation of Backstrom, the English and French translation of Basil Valentine's "Will and Testament" or the English translation of the aforesaid epistle of Trevisan to Thomas of Bononia which in many points seems meaningless.

Andro
06-12-2011, 02:38 PM
It is true that in many cases the French translations are far superior than the English one. See for example the French translation of the "Aurea Catena Homeri" compared to the English translation of Backstrom, the English and French translation of Basil Valentine's "Will and Testament" or the English translation of the aforesaid epistle of Trevisan to Thomas of Bononia which in many points seems meaningless.

I think it depends less on the language and more on the translator (and his/her understanding of the special writing styles of those works).

I anyone thinks it could work, we could have a sort of 'Translation Market'.

People would post, for example, the languages they are able to faithfully translate (to and from).

Or post a certain work they would very much like to have translated into a preferred language.

Arrangements could then be made via PM (between the interested parties), and when translations are ready, available and found to be reliable - they could be publicly announced on the forum, and a fair energy-exchange platform could be established for other potentially interested individuals.

Just an idea...
✂----------------------------------------------

Hellin Hermetist
06-12-2011, 02:54 PM
I agree with you. It has to do with the translator and not with the language. The French proved more careful than the Englishmen most of the time.

Your idea sounds interesting. Let's see what others have to say.

sam
03-10-2012, 03:11 PM
This book is available in German from this library as pdf:

http://vd18-proto.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/de-slub-vd18/content/titleinfo/11622991

direct link:

http://digital.slub-dresden.de/fileadmin/data/346373336/346373336_tif/jpegs/346373336.pdf

sam
03-10-2012, 03:25 PM
We are quite an international and multilingual bunch here, and many of us also have a good command of the English language.

We have folks who speak German, French, Spanish, Italian, Greek, with very good English as well.

And if we look hard I'm sure we could also find Latin or Sanskrit or Hebrew or Arabic or Chinese...

I don't see why we could not work out some translation agreements for the interested parties, based on a platform of fair energy exchange...

has anything come of this in the meantime? I am considering translating "Des Hermes Trismegists wahrer alter N a t u r w e g. " from the German version to English, however it has several Latin paragraphs which I dont speak at all and my English is neither eloquent nor necessarily gramatically correct, although on purely technical terms I could produce a fair translation I guess.
(Because the text is written in an older version of German it does not lend itself to machine translation at all.)
However, if this would be a group effort of at least 3 people, one versed in Latin and one re-writing my English, the end product would be quite usable I guess.

also: the German original is 50 pages DIN-A4 (approx. letter size) long.

thoughts? volunteers?

Illen A. Cluf
03-10-2012, 05:04 PM
However, if this would be a group effort of at least 3 people, one versed in Latin and one re-writing my English, the end product would be quite usable I guess.

thoughts? volunteers?

I will gladly volunteer to re-writing the English.

Illen

Illen A. Cluf
03-18-2012, 02:51 PM
I will gladly volunteer to re-writing the English.

Illen

Dear Sam,

If you're sincerely willing to translate the German "Des Hermes Trismegist wahrer alter Naturweg", I will offer to re-write the English (I have done this for others in the past). Since nobody offered to translate the Latin parts, we can always leave that for later.

Illen

sam
03-20-2012, 05:57 PM
Thank you, but I already have all the Latin parts translated by a German Alchemist plus I most likely already found someone to re-write it. I am 1/3 thru the text (its getting tougher towards the middle though) and I may not publish it in the end because there ARE parts in it that I do not understand in GERMAN, I mean I do understand all the words, but they make no sense, and under such circumstances it would not be very responsible to let that text lose onto the "masses".

If however in the end enough understanding has arisen in me I will publish it either thru BoD or some equivalent and let you all know.

sam
03-26-2012, 05:10 PM
OK, the book will be published thru LULU and the english part will be re-edited by an american alchemist friend.
As work-around for the hard-to-translate parts we design the book bi-lingual - left page the original German text, right page the translation. Footnotes will be provided and questionable parts marked as such, in that way the reader can try to get a "second opinion" for those.
Its based on the hand-written German original published 1782 in Leipzig.

ETA: End of April.

Hellin Hermetist
03-26-2012, 08:23 PM
Thanks for that link with the works of Naxagoras Max. Do you plan to make also an English translation of Alchymia Denudata at a future time?

sam
03-30-2012, 07:55 PM
Thanks for that link with the works of Naxagoras Max. Do you plan to make also an English translation of Alchymia Denudata at a future time?

Asuming you mean me (although the name is sam, not max) the answer is no.

I inquired (being a novice myself) with his name-sake on a german forum and his answer was:


Ich würde auch auf diesen Autor nicht allzu viel setzen, schon Kunkel nannte ihn einen elenden Betrüger .....

which translated means: I would not count on this author too much, Kunkel already called him a cheat.

we had an extended discussion about Kunkel and his credentials, long story short: NAX is not worth it.

Hellin Hermetist
03-31-2012, 03:42 PM
Yeah, I was referring to you Sam. My mistake with the name. Thanks for the answer.

sam
05-01-2012, 10:56 PM
Book is now published at LULU:

I was writing:


ETA: End of April.

and it was released on the LAST day of April :-)

http://www.lulu.com/shop/ich-a-true-freemason/hermes-trismegistus-old-and-true-natural-path/paperback/product-20096407.html

Illen A. Cluf
05-02-2012, 12:50 AM
Book is now published at LULU:

I was writing:



and it was released on the LAST day of April :-)

http://www.lulu.com/shop/ich-a-true-freemason/hermes-trismegistus-old-and-true-natural-path/paperback/product-20096407.html

Thanks, Sam. I just ordered a copy.

sam
05-02-2012, 11:17 AM
there seems to be a way to get some % off the price at LULU using this link, although, being German, I do not entirely understand how this works:


http://www.retailmenot.com/view/lulu.com

lazoo
05-25-2012, 09:45 AM
I think it depends less on the language and more on the teenboard (http://www.teenbar.net)(and his/her understanding of the special writing styles of those works).

I anyone thinks it could work, we could have a sort of 'Translation Market'.

People would post, for example, the languages they are able to faithfully translate (to and from).

Or post a certain work they would very much like to have translated into a preferred language.

Arrangements could then be made via PM (between the interested parties), and when translations are ready, available and found to be reliable - they could be publicly announced on the forum, and a fair energy-exchange platform could be established for other potentially interested individuals.

Just an idea...
✂----------------------------------------------

Hi.

How many people speaking the same language do you require to validate a translation ?

Andro
05-25-2012, 01:09 PM
How many people speaking the same language do you require to validate a translation ?

One or two who seem trustworthy can do, but I suppose 3 would be safest...


three is the magic number after all...

I can personally translate from German to English, but only if the German original is in modern Latin Alphabet (not German Script).

I can also correct already made English translations from other languages, if the translator's English is not perfect, but good enough to get the content through.

Nibiru
06-18-2012, 05:37 PM
I don't know if this has been posted before, but I've found what I believe to be an English translation of the full version of "The Golden Chain of Homer" as well as several other hand-written translations of potentially important works. "A Collection of Alchemical Manuscripts" of Manly Palmer Hall.

Here's the online reader link: http://archive.org/stream/manlypalmerhabox18v5hall#page/n0/mode/2up

Here's the link to download the PDF if you like: http://archive.org/details/manlypalmerhabox18v5hall

Krisztian
06-18-2012, 06:08 PM
I greatly appreciate translations and, have always admired people who work as professional translators. For someone like I who's first language is other than English, I can't help but wonder how accurate these translations are especially taking it into context that they're from other periods of dialect, expressions, etc.?

Krisztian
06-18-2012, 06:13 PM
I greatly appreciate translations and, have always admired people who work as professional translators. For someone like I who's first language is other than English, I can't help but wonder how accurate these translations are especially taking it into context that they're from other periods of dialect, expressions, etc.?

I'm not sure whether I'm just gullible or naive, but that's the very reason why I tend to rely on illustrations, paintings, and so forth. For some reason, I find that more credible. For example, The Crowning of Nature set of plates speak to me more than specific writings. I meditate on the images, and see where they take me.

Anyone else feels that way?

Nibiru
06-19-2012, 02:32 AM
Hello Krisztian :)


I greatly appreciate translations and, have always admired people who work as professional translators. For someone like I who's first language is other than English, I can't help but wonder how accurate these translations are especially taking it into context that they're from other periods of dialect, expressions, etc.?

I would agree that there will almost always be 'something' that's lost in any translation, and even more so with alchemical texts. I had never seen the hand written versions of the translations I had posted the links to and thought that some may find them interesting.


I'm not sure whether I'm just gullible or naive, but that's the very reason why I tend to rely on illustrations, paintings, and so forth. For some reason, I find that more credible. For example, The Crowning of Nature set of plates speak to me more than specific writings. I meditate on the images, and see where they take me.

Anyone else feels that way?

I agree and feel that Images as well as poetic/metaphoric writing seem to have a way of communicating with the unconscious or deeper-self in ways that would be impossible using most literal forms of writing and communication.

Krisztian
06-23-2012, 05:54 PM
I agree and feel that Images as well as poetic/metaphoric writing seem to have a way of communicating with the unconscious or deeper-self in ways that would be impossible using most literal forms of writing and communication.

I think you summed it up quite well in this paragraph, Nibiru, better than I can say.

vega33
06-28-2012, 06:31 AM
I greatly appreciate translations and, have always admired people who work as professional translators. For someone like I who's first language is other than English, I can't help but wonder how accurate these translations are especially taking it into context that they're from other periods of dialect, expressions, etc.?

I'm sure it differs from translation to translation, but I've been surprised by how alive the writings of artists such as Sendivogius or Fulcanelli feel to me. The way they string phrases together, the rhetoric they choose to use etc, communicates to one their emotional nature -- often what deeply stirs them, what they are in agreement on and what they worked hardest to find.

I find this passage from New Chemical Light (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/newchem1.html) apropos for illustrating that:


Many Sages, Scholars, and learned men have in all ages, and (according to Hermes) even so early as the days before the Flood, written much concerning the preparation of the Philosopher's Stone; and if their books could be understood without a knowledge of the living processes of Nature, one might almost say that they are calculated to supersede the study of the real world around us. But though they never departed from the simple ways of Nature they have something to teach us, which, in these more sophisticated times, still need to learn, because we have applied ourselves to what are regarded as the more advanced branches of knowledge, and despise the study of so "simple " a thing as natural Generation. Hence we pay more heed to impossible things than to those objects which are broadly exhibited before our very eyes, we excel more in subtle speculations than in a sober study of Nature, and of the meaning of the Sages. It is one of the most remarkable features of human nature that we neglect those things which seem familiar, and are eager for new and strange information. The workman who has attained the highest degree of excellence in his Art, neglects it, and applies himself to something else, or else abuses his knowledge. Our longing for an increase of knowledge urges us ever onward towards some final goal, in which we imagine that we shall find full rest and satisfaction, like the ant which is not endowed with wings till the last days of its life.

Why does the author feel the need to repeat essentially the same point (the lack of attention paid to the simple things in nature such as generation) this many times? Why does he lapse into poetry and words such as "sober", "longing" etc (or rather their equivalents in Latin)? He uses rhetoric (The workman... abuses his knowledge - a generalization, but one based on observation). He says "living processes of Nature" rather than just "processes of Nature". Little adjectives like that matter.

Asking these questions and letting yourself penetrate the character of the writer can be done as long as the translation is not terrible. Often charitable advice will be given in plain English and the more obscure chemical terminology is the parts more liable to error if the translation is not perfect. So I think you can still gain from a translation even if it is not perfect.

JDP
09-01-2012, 12:39 AM
Thanks for that link with the works of Naxagoras Max. Do you plan to make also an English translation of Alchymia Denudata at a future time?

The Alchymia Denudata is a pretty large work, therefore having the whole thing translated would be a pretty expensive affair even if many people join forces to cover the cost. However, to translate some parts of it is perfectly possible. I am primarily interested in 3 claims that other authors have found in this text, and which the author of the Alchymia Denudata in his turn probably derived from Kunckel and Sebald Schwaertzer:

1- Juncker and Creiling claim that the dark calx obtained from silver and iron oxides in Becher's "Minera Arenaria" process can be made to yield real gold through special treatment with mercury or mercury sublimate (I think I have located the part of Alchymia Denudata that deals with this claim)

2- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with silver and lead chloride and sal ammoniac were obviously derived from Alchymia Denudata (but I don't trust Fulcanelli's accounts of them, so I want to take a look at the original source he plagiarized without giving it any credit)

3- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with pyrites or metallic iron dissolved in aqua regia are also derived from Alchymia Denudata (I have located the part of this text where Fulcanelli obviously found them without giving any credit to his source.) Juncker, however, says that these experiments are really by Sebald Schwaertzer (I have not been able to locate where exactly in the surviving texts connected to that author are these experiments found.)

I am currently working on having some parts of Creiling's books translated by a very good German translator who only charges $0.03 per word translated into English. After we are done with Creiling's texts, we will start with the parts of Alchymia Denudata that contain the above mentioned claims. If you -or anyone else- are interested in helping out to cover the translation costs, let me know. The more people who join such projects the cheaper it becomes per person and the more amount of text that can be translated.

JDP
09-01-2012, 12:46 AM
which translated means: I would not count on this author too much, Kunkel already called him a cheat.

we had an extended discussion about Kunkel and his credentials, long story short: NAX is not worth it.

Curiously enough, the author of Alchymia Denudata obviously derived some claims out of Kunckel (see for example that gold experiment that produces a red sublimate; Kunckel published it first in his "Perspective Against Chymical Non-entities"), who in his turn got a lot of his processes from Sebald Schwaertzer and the so-called Saxon manuscripts. Kunckel was probably angry with whoever the author of Alchymia Denudata was for "stealing" those processes. But what did Kunckel do himself? He also got a lot of his claims from those older texts.

JDP
09-01-2012, 12:54 AM
I can personally translate from German to English, but only if the German original is in modern Latin Alphabet (not German Script).

If I gave you a transcribed German text of some parts of the letter of Dr. Edmund Dickinson to the "adept" Theodorus Mundanus, do you think you could provide a good English translation of it? I have a full transcription of the German version of these letters. The response letter from Mundanus to Dickinson was almost completely translated into English in the 17th century by Edmund Brice (only a short passage was left out from his translation), but he did not bother translating the also important letter of Dickinson to Mundanus.

Hellin Hermetist
09-02-2012, 10:11 PM
The Alchymia Denudata is a pretty large work, therefore having the whole thing translated would be a pretty expensive affair even if many people join forces to cover the cost. However, to translate some parts of it is perfectly possible. I am primarily interested in 3 claims that other authors have found in this text, and which the author of the Alchymia Denudata in his turn probably derived from Kunckel and Sebald Schwaertzer:

1- Juncker and Creiling claim that the dark calx obtained from silver and iron oxides in Becher's "Minera Arenaria" process can be made to yield real gold through special treatment with mercury or mercury sublimate (I think I have located the part of Alchymia Denudata that deals with this claim)

2- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with silver and lead chloride and sal ammoniac were obviously derived from Alchymia Denudata (but I don't trust Fulcanelli's accounts of them, so I want to take a look at the original source he plagiarized without giving it any credit)

3- Fulcanelli's "archemical" experiments with pyrites or metallic iron dissolved in aqua regia are also derived from Alchymia Denudata (I have located the part of this text where Fulcanelli obviously found them without giving any credit to his source.) Juncker, however, says that these experiments are really by Sebald Schwaertzer (I have not been able to locate where exactly in the surviving texts connected to that author are these experiments found.)

I am currently working on having some parts of Creiling's books translated by a very good German translator who only charges $0.03 per word translated into English. After we are done with Creiling's texts, we will start with the parts of Alchymia Denudata that contain the above mentioned claims. If you -or anyone else- are interested in helping out to cover the translation costs, let me know. The more people who join such projects the cheaper it becomes per person and the more amount of text that can be translated.

Hi JPD,

I believe that the process given by Fulcanelli where we tinge gold to redness via repeated inquartation and parting with copper is also mentioned in this book. If I am correct in that, then seems that all of Fulcanelli's archemical experiments are taken from the works of Naxagoras. Have you tried the above experiment? I am working on that this period and after three meltings and partings I am stiil not able to discern any special redness at my gold metal. If you dont want to speak about it openly leave me a pm.

Greetings,
HH

JDP
09-03-2012, 01:49 AM
Hi JPD,

I believe that the process given by Fulcanelli where we tinge gold to redness via repeated inquartation and parting with copper is also mentioned in this book. If I am correct in that, then seems that all of Fulcanelli's archemical experiments are taken from the works of Naxagoras. Have you tried the above experiment? I am working on that this period and after three meltings and partings I am stiil not able to discern any special redness at my gold metal. If you dont want to speak about it openly leave me a pm.

Greetings,
HH

I have not been able to locate that claim in Alchymia Denudata yet, but you can find very similar claims about gold supposedly getting "redder" due to some supposed "sulfur" it gets from copper. Beguin and Thraster mention it, for example.

Many years ago I did attempt to see if there was any truth to the nitric acid version of this claim by Fulcanelli (older authors than Fulcanelli, like Beguin and Thraster, speak of it as the result of special cementations), but just like your experiments so far, I found absolutely nothing of the sort. I melted 3 parts of copper with 1 of gold and separated them with nitric acid some 12 times. When I melted the resulting gold with silver and separated them with nitric acid there was no increase whatsoever in the gold.

I find Fulcanelli to be an extremely unreliable writer. He very often plagiarizes other sources, giving no credit or references whatsoever where he got a particular claim, and to top it off he sometimes seems to either misinterpret them or withhold important parts as well. I find it therefore necessary to go and seek some of these sources he plagiarized and attempt to get translations so I can double-check them.

I will have to say more about this if I can get the parts of Alchymia Denudata that contain these claims translated. According to Juncker's descriptions of some of these experiments found in Alchymia Denudata and Schwaertzer's so-called Saxon manuscripts, Fulcanelli seems to have either misinterpreted them or withheld some information. And I trust Juncker more than Fulcanelli.

Hellin Hermetist
09-03-2012, 10:48 AM
I have found the followings at the chemical works of Caspar Neumann. He was an older chemist, not an alchemist.

"When pale, the colour of gold is heightened by melting it with copper and separating the copper. Juncker reports, from Alchymia Denudata, that, by melting gold with four times its weight of copper, separating the copper with aqua fortis, then melting the gold with the same quantity of fresh copper, and repeating the process eight or nine times, the gold becomes at last of a puniceous red colour, which sustains the action of lead, antimony and aqua fortis".

As you repeated your melting and parting twelve times, the number of repetitions seems to be okay. Were you able to discern any redness or any change of colour to your metal after so many meltings and separations? Also did you reduce your alloy to a calx before the parting as some authors advise to do?
Juncker is the same person with the one named Tugel or Jugel or another one?

JDP
09-03-2012, 12:40 PM
I have found the followings at the chemical works of Caspar Neumann. He was an older chemist, not an alchemist.

"When pale, the colour of gold is heightened by melting it with copper and separating the copper. Juncker reports, from Alchymia Denudata, that, by melting gold with four times its weight of copper, separating the copper with aqua fortis, then melting the gold with the same quantity of fresh copper, and repeating the process eight or nine times, the gold becomes at last of a puniceous red colour, which sustains the action of lead, antimony and aqua fortis".

Thanks for that info on what Juncker reports. I have not seen where does he say that yet. But if he reports that it's in Alchymia Denudata then it very likely is. Juncker is a pretty reliable source and usually gives credit to his sources.


As you repeated your melting and parting twelve times, the number of repetitions seems to be okay. Were you able to discern any redness or any change of colour to your metal after so many meltings and separations?

No. When you separate gold from silver by means of nitric acid the calx is black or dark. When you seprate it from copper, though, the calx is reddish-brown, it looks a lot like precipitated copper. But that happens even at the first separation. No amount of further separations from copper seem to deepen this color of the gold calx. At least I could not notice it.


Also did you reduce your alloy to a calx before the parting as some authors advise to do?

No, I just granulated the alloy by pouring it in a metal bucket full of agitated water. Division to calx is not necessary for nitric acid to act upon such alloys that contain much larger quantities of copper or silver than gold. Even in a solid nugget or ingot the acid will work its way through the alloy, eventually.


Juncker is the same person with the one named Tugel or Jugel or another one?

No, they were different authors.

And the name of the other fellow was Jugel. The R.A.M.S. transcriber of Bacstrom's translation of parts of his book got the "J" confused with a "T".

Hellin Hermetist
09-03-2012, 01:15 PM
No. When you separate gold from silver by means of nitric acid the calx is black or dark. When you seprate it from copper, though, the calx is reddish-brown, it looks a lot like precipitated copper. But that happens even at the first separation. No amount of further separations from copper seem to deepen this color of the gold calx. At least I could not notice it.



As I understand it, the whole thing hasn't anything to do with the colour of the calx which is produced after the parting. The redness must be discerned at the metal which we get after the melting of that calx. Till far I have accomplished four melting and partings and the metal which I get after the melting of the produced calx has the usual colour of gold, not a red one. Do you make use of propane - oxygen torch for your meltings? Our conclusions seem to agree then.





No, I just granulated the alloy by pouring it in a metal bucket full of agitated water. Division to calx is not necessary for nitric acid to act upon such alloys that contain much larger quantities of copper or silver than gold. Even in a solid nugget or ingot the acid will work its way through the alloy, eventually.



Yeah, granulation sounds good too. From my part I use a solid nugget of the alloy but the reaction takes a lot of time to reach the end. I have heard that its dangerous to pour molten copper in water. That the reaction is violent. Have you found anything like that?

JDP
09-03-2012, 01:28 PM
As I understand it, the whole thing hasn't anything to do with the colour of the calx which is produced after the parting. The redness must be discerned at the metal which we get after the melting of that calx. Till far I have accomplished four melting and partings and the metal which I get after the melting of the produced calx has the usual colour of gold, not a red one... Our conclusions seem to agree then.

Yes, seems so.


Do you make use of propane - oxygen torch for your meltings?

No, I use improvised furnaces that work with propane torches of various sizes. I make them out of refractory ceramic fiber blankets, refractory cement and steel cans of various sizes (the largest one I have built was using one of those metal trash cans that people use to put the garbage bags outside!)


Yeah, granulation sounds good too. From my part I use a solid nugget of the alloy but the reaction takes a lot of time to reach the end. I have heard that its dangerous to pour molten copper in water. That the reaction is violent. Have you found anything like that?

No, not really. Sometimes the molten metals splash water but that's about it.

Krisztian
09-03-2012, 06:20 PM
So I think you can still gain from a translation even if it is not perfect.

I think you brought out some important points in your explanation. I also don't condemn Old English or other older manuscripts, yes, everything in life has something to offer and teach.

I merely explained my own process with the alchemical and allegorical images of old - say 16th Century - manuscripts provide.

Ezalor
09-08-2012, 01:05 PM
I'm reading Jean Dubuis' alchemy course. it starts out with Spagyrics then gets into mineral alchemy. I just started the Spagyrics part so can't form n opinion, but based on what I read from him so far I expect good quality. You can download it from the Internet, but for the sake of completeness regarding his approach suggest you start with his "Fundamentals of Esoteric knowledge (1 volume) then Spagyrics (2 volumes) and finally Mineral Alchemy (4 volumes). He also has after these 3 volumes on Qabala and a final volume titled "The Experience of Eternity". All available in English.

Anyone knows Dubuis' work already and can share an opinion? I would be interested.

Awani
09-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Anyone knows Dubuis' work already and can share an opinion? I would be interested.

Dubuis is mentioned in several threads, here are some:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1750-Jean-Dubuis-Acorn-Experiment

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2923-Best-Alcohol-to-use-for-Jean-Dubuis-Experiments

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1486-Death-of-Jean-Dubuis

I am sure you can PM some of the folks that have participated in the above threads if you have specific questions.

:cool:

Krisztian
09-09-2012, 05:11 PM
Anyone knows Dubuis' work already and can share an opinion? I would be interested.

Barátom Ezalor,

I'm quite familiar with almost all of his publications, not just philosophically, but also by many experimentation in the practical realm.

Read his "Fundamentals of Esoteric Knowledge" first, then the later years have produced his follow up to that manuscript called "Experience of Eternity". Both set the tone for how to approach the practical side of alchemy. His recommendations are not unlike Franz Bardon's, and I even found his superb meditation also mentioned by James of Wingmakers. Neither credits the other, maybe they didn't know of each others' work; but the meditation itself I highly recommend!

The practical aspect of his suggestions can be supplemented with other writers, modern and ancient. Bartlett writes clearly, and he's background is that of a chemist.

Ezalor
09-10-2012, 06:01 PM
Köszönöm a választ! :)

I'm already past half of the Fundamentals, and just looked into Spagyrics vol. I. I expect that I will finish the Fundamentals by the time I acquire everything I need for the first experiment in Spagyrics I. The Fundamentals is right now the main source of my personal research I started to sketch up the fundamentum of my personal "magickal workbook" (or my personal grimoire as I call it). In this workbook I alredy implement everything though my personal approach and add my personal research rather than just copying.

In the Dubuis collection I acquired Experience of Eternity is listed last, but then I will move onto it once I finished Fundamentals.

What I really love in Fundamentals, that so far most of the informations in it are the same, or very similar to what I've known already, and it even corresponds to informations I acquired directly from the spirit world, and so far I've never read any author who would have correspond to this information. I only had to make minor additions and changes to his structure of the Universe in order to have it fully correspond to these informations I had, and this is why I greatly respect him, as today it's pretty hard to find anyone who knows this much (and correctly). Or at least, very few such people are ever publicly accessible and known.

I will look into Bardon and Bartlett, thank you!

Minden jót,
Ezalor

Krisztian
09-10-2012, 06:35 PM
as today it's pretty hard to find anyone who knows this much (and correctly). Or at least, very few such people are ever publicly accessible and known.

The true practitioners of this Royal Art today are usually work behind the veil. For successful results oftentimes depend on staying out of the limelight. There's no hiding, and it's just my contention, that the closer you get to more serious Opus, the more astral light you emit from this Side. So those who can "see" will see you when traveling 'outside'. It's like among the shades of gray smoke, you see more stronger colour of red and that draws attention on the Other Side.

In Potpourri Alchemia, the Cappucine monk, alludes to it:




"Take note, during your work, many Fratres Rosea Crucis will come to you because you caused them to see it".

I know you know what I mean.

/

I'm happy to hear that you're prepared well. That's prerequisite to the process.

Andro
05-31-2013, 03:50 AM
If I gave you a transcribed German text of some parts of the letter of Dr. Edmund Dickinson to the "adept" Theodorus Mundanus, do you think you could provide a good English translation of it?

Yes I can. And there are others here as well, who know both English and German.


The response letter [...] was almost completely translated into English in the 17th century [...]

For anyone interested, the response letter is in RAMS, under Quintessence (http://www.ramsdigital.com/toc/QUINTESSENCE.HTML).

JDP
05-31-2013, 11:44 AM
Yes I can. And there are others here as well, who know both English and German.



For anyone interested, the response letter is in RAMS, under Quintessence (http://www.ramsdigital.com/toc/QUINTESSENCE.HTML).


Let me know where can I send it to you (send me a PM), if you don't already have it. I have a transcription of the German translation of the whole Dickinson letter that was not translated into English by Brice. It is unfortunate that he did not, because the Mundanus response letter by itself at some points leaves the reader wondering what is it exactly that was asked or said to him by his correspondent.

Andro
06-01-2013, 05:00 AM
I'll start working on that translation as soon as I can. It may take some time, as I currently have quite lot on my plate. But it will be done.

Meanwhile, is there anyone here who has 'Les Recreations Hermetiques' in French and is able to translate it into good English? It would make a nice addition to the Cyliani/Old Nature Way lineage...

Also, how about the genuine 3rd part of 'The Golden Chain'? Any volunteers? I know there exists a French translation and also a German version (in Old German script - difficult to decipher for me).

We could cooperate and make this stuff available to each other!

Illen A. Cluf
06-01-2013, 07:57 PM
Meanwhile, is there anyone here who has 'Les Recreations Hermetiques' in French and is able to translate it into good English? It would make a nice addition to the Cyliani/Old Nature Way lineage...


Yes, there is a draft English version of Recreations Hermetiques, which will be published in the near future. It is currently undergoing a final edit.

Illen

True Initiate
06-03-2013, 12:29 AM
Also, how about the genuine 3rd part of 'The Golden Chain'? Any volunteers? I know there exists a French translation and also a German version (in Old German script - difficult to decipher for me).

We could cooperate and make this stuff available to each other!

There is no genuine third part of Golden Chain because it was attached to original Golden Chain and it was a forgery but if you are interested in reading it anyway it is already being translated in English.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/goldenchainIII.html

Andro
06-03-2013, 12:38 AM
There is no genuine third part of Golden Chain because it was a forgery but if you are interested in reading it anyway it is already being translated in English.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/goldenchainIII.html

Thanks, but this is not the one.

I'll list the chapters of the one I mean, in a day or two.

Salazius
06-03-2013, 01:24 PM
Index

The third part of the "transmutatione metallorum" the inside dealing especially about the "Lapide philosophorum"

1. What our materia actually is, and how the extraction from salt, sulfur and mercury happens.

2. From the "conjunction of principiorum" as salt, sulfur and mercury.

3. From the other way of the ancients in rework

4. From the short ways of the ancients in the rework

5. From the tincture in white, in the short way

6. From the "augmentation and multiplication" of our philosophical water

7. From the "augmentation and multiplication" of our triplicate mercury, on different ways

8. From the long ways of the ancients

9. From the secret resolution of our materie

10. From a tincture in white from another materie

11. How out a "Primordial" chaos the "hylean" salt can be found

ArcherSage
10-27-2016, 03:47 AM
The Fountain of John is the greatest detailed work I have read yet regarding the sexual transmutation and the exact time it takes when done properly

Murgen
05-11-2017, 04:12 PM
I come back to the list of "valuable texts" page 1.

"Treatise on the Great Art", from Pernety, does not correspond to any title (as far as I know) in his french bibliography.

Could anyone enlighten me about this strangeness?

JDP
05-12-2017, 12:43 AM
I come back to the list of "valuable texts" page 1.

"Treatise on the Great Art", from Pernety, does not correspond to any title (as far as I know) in his french bibliography.

Could anyone enlighten me about this strangeness?

The editor explains how this "treatise" was actually composed:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-vXAkQabIegC&pg=PA8&dq=The+present+work+which+we+have+entitled+Treatis e+On+The+Great+Art&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivg-bKhunTAhVG5CYKHclZBQcQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=The%20present%20work%20which%20we%20have%20entit led%20Treatise%20On%20The%20Great%20Art&f=false

The present work which we have entitled Treatise On The Great Art is composed of the introductory remarks preceding the principal works on Alchemy of the savant dom Pernety, especially his "Fables Egyptiennes et Grecques devoilees et reduites au meme principe", (a Paris, chez Bauche, 2 volumes, in-12, 1758).

So it is really a composite from several writings by Pernety, not an original work that he actually wrote.

By the way, those of you interested in the alchemical interpretation of Egyptian, Greek and Roman mythology should read the work that Pernety himself used to compose his on that subject: Michael Maier's Arcana Arcanissima. For those who can read French, there is a great French translation of it, published by Beya Editions:

http://www.beyaeditions.com/livre5.htm

And for those of you who can read Italian, read also Bracesco's "The Exposition of the Philosopher Geber" (La Espositione di Geber philosopho, 1544), which is apparently the first text to devote a good deal of space to alchemical explanations of Greek/Roman myths. Bracesco is actually quite lucid and describes most of the operations and reactions, and even openly declares the metallic matter he used to get the "sulphur/tincture/soul" of the Stone. The only exception to his clarity is: the preparation of the "vinegar" (i.e. a common deckname for the secret solvent or "water") that operates the solution of the metallic matter and all the subsequent reactions and changes it will undergo, and where the whole secret lies. The composition of the secret solvent Bracesco keeps jealously guarded and the little he says touching directly on the subject is vague or obscure. But if you have loads of experience in all types of reactions, his descriptions of what this "vinegar" does to the metallic matter and the byproducts obtained in the several operations that follow its solution will give you a few "pointers" regarding some of the substances employed in its preparation. I like Bracesco. A generally nice and generous man. Unlike the "one matter only" scoundrels, who only want to fool you into wasting time & money in a hopeless search for something that does not exist anywhere until the operator actually makes it himself.

Murgen
05-12-2017, 09:54 PM
Thank you JDP.

What a pity for a french native speaker : the best book of/about a french alchemist who used to write in french is only written in english :-)

Beya Editions : I confirm that the team is composed of amazing men of learning. I rarely met so much erudition going hand in hand with kindness (And I do not say that because it is a Belgian publishing house).

JDP
05-13-2017, 07:34 AM
Thank you JDP.

What a pity for a french native speaker : the best book of/about a french alchemist who used to write in french is only written in english :-)

Beya Editions : I confirm that the team is composed of amazing men of learning. I rarely met so much erudition going hand in hand with kindness (And I do not say that because it is a Belgian publishing house).

Well, technically it is available in French, sort of, in a "scattered" way. After all, the English-language editor used several of the French works by Pernety to compose it.

Regarding Beya Editions: yes, great guys, they have already put out a good number of translations of old texts (including several alchemical ones) out there available for the French-reading public. It is a true shame that there just is no English-language equivalent to Beya Editions. Those guys from Ambix made big promises about making many old alchemical texts available in English with their "Sources of Alchemy and Chemistry" project, but so far they have only published one volume in all these years. Their output moves at turtle-pace compared to that of Beya Editions or the German publishers of alchemical texts (though the German publishers have the BIG advantage that the large majority of those old texts are already available in German thanks to the massive 16th-18th century output of printed alchemical and "chymical" texts in the German-speaking lands, so modern German publishers do not have to bother much about having texts translated from scratch. They already have the majority of the literature on those subjects available in German, it only needs to be reprinted in more modern formats.)

Murgen
05-15-2017, 08:26 PM
To finish with that Pernety sub-subject.

I should have dug deeper before talking : the "english synthesis" called "a treatise on the great art" corresponds grosso modo to the first 200 pages of Pernety's "Fables Egyptiennes et Grecques", where Pernety proposes a systematisation/structuration of his hermetical knowledge.