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solomon levi
10-11-2011, 06:55 PM
In Toltec philosophy and practice, the world is a description, agreement makes the world.
As shown in Huna philosophy, this agreement is between the subconscious and the conscious.
In Ruiz's work, The Four Agreements, we see these agreements are not essential truths - they are
simply descriptions which make life relatively more harmonious.
The same with Castaneda's Sorcerers' description - it is more objective relative to ordinary first attention,
but it is not written in stone - it is still a description.
NLP (neuro-linguistic programming) has some similar descriptions that are assumed in order to
allow more options (= more freedom; very feng shui again IMO). They call these the presuppositions
of NLP.

My favorite presupposition, due to its radical nature, is this:

8. The meaning of the communication is not simply what you intend, but also the response you get.
This response may be different to the one you wanted. There are no failures in communication, only responses and feedback. If you are not getting the result you want, change what you are doing. Take responsibility for the communication.

Others have written it more to the point:
The meaning of the communication IS the response you get.


I say this is radical and life-changing because it marks the difference between magic and reason.
That difference, as Castaneda put it, is assuming responsibility. It is very easy to think we have
been misunderstood, misrepresented. It is very difficult and magical to take responsibility
for the response we get in communication.

This IMO is very evolved if you find someone who does not give up on you (which is blame),
dismiss you... "you just can't understand"... you're not within the circle of knowledge, etc...

An alchemist KNOWS communication or they could not magnetise/attract the astral influence.
Well, talking to a fellow human being is no different - it's just as magical and the alchemist is just
as responsible for the results/outcome, be it success or failure. If s/he fails, s/he simply did not
supply the proper vase. If an alchemist can find this vase amongst all of creation, then s/he can
also communicate to people/vases successfully.

NLP is just like feng shui and alchemy. Establishing rapport and knowing the person you are
communicating with is the same as knowing the qualities of our Prima materia and supplying a proper
vase for it.

Love is this magnetism, this attraction. Strife is the imbalance of the elements.

For nlp presuppositions, here is one option/link:
http://www.achievingexcellence.com/p-a_nlp_presup.html

solomon levi
10-11-2011, 07:06 PM
Thus alchemist also becomes hierophant and Initator.
Magically, this is not different than 'blessing', or touching the hem of the robe of christ.
It is not merely supplying knowledge. Communication is so much more than words, as NLP teaches.

III
10-21-2011, 03:20 AM
Thus alchemist also becomes hierophant and Initator.
Magically, this is not different than 'blessing', or touching the hem of the robe of christ.
It is not merely supplying knowledge. Communication is so much more than words, as NLP teaches.

Hi Solomon,

I would have to say that what I can comunicate in words is perhaps 10% or less of what is taught. I teach how to remove the inpediments to knowing. I have also been the delivery agent for shaktipat lot's of times. From time to time I have been honored to be the Intitator.

My ex wife had a long but compltely predictable way to misunderstand everything I tried to say to her about anything but the most trivial. Over time I built up the list and when I was trying to get an idea across to her I would preface it with "I don't mean "xxxx1", "I don't mean xxxx2" etc. until finally it was about 15 items long. Finally I reached the end of the list and made my statement (something about our personal relationship) and she had no other automatic misunderstanding lined up and understood the statement the way I intended it. After that she never again allowed me to list the "Not this, not this not this ... no matter how done . She always interrupted me after that and I was never again able to qualify anything before saying it to her. She never was willing to understand anything from me again. We divorced a few years later.

The unspoken teachings can be triggered by specific understandings and/or experiences and by shaktipat but the person has to be willing.

Ghislain
10-21-2011, 06:07 AM
III

On reflection do you believe you were trying to understand her, or did you just want her to understand you?

I ask this because I have been in the same situation. With hindsight my ex and I both had misunderstandings of each other
because we had different goals. At the time I believed she was just not trying to understand; I guess she felt the same about me.

Ghislain

III
10-21-2011, 07:23 PM
III

On reflection do you believe you were trying to understand her, or did you just want her to understand you?

I ask this because I have been in the same situation. With hindsight my ex and I both had misunderstandings of each other
because we had different goals. At the time I believed she was just not trying to understand; I guess she felt the same about me.

Ghislain

Hi Ghislain,

I spent better than 90% of the time listening to her. Mostly she wouldn't let me get a word out sideways. She would make her statement. I would ask her a question trying to understand what meaning she was using. The whole dance around the circle, which she would repeat endlessly, was her avoiding saying what she meant. In trying to understand the assumptions behind what she was saying she would always dance sideways, contradicting herself over and over as she danced around the circle of avoidance. When I am in conversation with a person I can feel, be aware of, their triggers and avoidances. The closer she got to her root assumptions behind anything she said the harder she avoided them. She basically changed what she was saying over and over to avoid being pinned down to mean any specifric thing, so it was one contradiction after another. Everything that came down to "round and round the mulberrry bush..." at the basic levels became totally off limits to discussion in the future. She was unable or unwilling to define her terms. By the time we reached divorce minus 1 year it was impossible to talk about anything. Our kids, by that time ranging from 20-27 years old, thought she was going nuts. She was quite unwilling to have her meanings known. That allowed her. to deny any response I made based on any particular meaning. She HAD TO BE RIGHT, always. She was scientifically trained. She had been quite good at practicing critical thinking. in the first 15-20 years of our relationship. At that time I became more severely chronically ill. By having anything she said mean anything she wanted it to at any specific time it was impossible to understand what she said because she would never agree that any particular statement meant any specific thing. I'm willing to "own" my opinions or statements. When asked to explain more deeply I usually can. When asked to come down to a specific meaning or meanings in a specific situation, with or without qualifications, I usually can. She absolutely refused to "own" her expessed opinions and come down to a specific meaning or meanings. Everything she said was always ambiguous. This way she could always play "gotcha" no matter what possible meaning I was responding to. Then she said I was always "throwing grenades" when I refused to play into her "gotcha" routines. This was very tiresome and not how I wanted to live life. When I started recovering form the deficiency illnesses I started protesting her "gotcha" games by pointing out how the conversation would go in the "gotcha" game and refusing to play them out. That last year we were quite unable to talk about anything. She didn't want to be understood and I understood her much better than she was happy with. Please don't misunderstand me. I still think highly of her and miss the "her" of our first 20 years. Due to the neurological malfunctions I don't remember a lot of the next 16 years. Things changed when she started interpreting my illness as doing to her rather than characteristics of the neurolgical conditions. About 5 years into the illness, when things changed from "when I get well" to "if I get well" she got very depressed. My lowpoint was just before I solved the problem. My eyes were too blurry to read much of the time. I couldn't remember much. I had trouble learning things. I had CFS, FMS, subacute combined degeneration, congestive heart failure etc. I was falling, couldn't feel my feet and at times my legs. I was becoming incontinent. I was perhaps a month or three away from a wheelchair and diapers when I found the solution. As soon as I had improved enough that it looked like I might be able to take care of myself she filed for divorce. So looking back it's possible to say that she was preparing herself to bail for some years prior and was trying to hide that.

Ghislain
10-21-2011, 08:21 PM
A lot more than I thought III

I hope life is good for you now.

Ghislain

III
10-22-2011, 04:19 AM
A lot more than I thought III

I hope life is good for you now.

Ghislain


A lot more than I thought

I'm not sure what you mean.

I hope life is good for you now.

Except for my daughter being killed by a drunk driver several months ago things are going decently. My health is the best it has ever been. My relationship with my alchemical partner/priestess is excellent. She has helped me heal from so much and has helped me a lot through this period after my daughter's death.

Our relationship is based on the deep honesty needed for an alchemical relationship.

I tried everything I could think of to try to get past my ex-wife's barriers as she was in theory attempting to perform an alchemy with me. She was one of the most powerful intellects I've ever met. Unfortunately she used it to construct her defense systems of the highest complexity I have ever tried to work with.

We met at about 4 in the afternoon. At a distance before we met I recognized her as "an old friend" (a member of this "family" we go through many lives with) and she had recognized me as such and ran around a building in order to be coming towards me on the walkway where we met.. That first night we talked until 3 in the morning. We were in a very altered state (no drugs) and agreed that we would have our 3 children. I told her that I could only promise her" 20 years this time". I got sick 20 years and 2 months after that first day. At the very end we had another such honest talk in the same altered state. It basically was a summing up of this round. She told me that at some point she decided that I wasn't likely to accept her if I knew what she was "really like" and therefore had to conceal her self from me. She did not understand, or know, or believe or something that the deep self revealed in high spiritual states stays there and would never influence the personal relationship. It's there each time I enter such states with a person, not forgotten or lost, but it doesn't carry over from the Priest to the personal state. She only lnows that in these high spiritual states and that is exactly what she refused to enter and blocked for a couple of decades. This revelation of hers I was allowed to carry over into the personal. We had these states happen about each 5 years or so when too much was being hidden. It's like her higher self was trying to give me the inforamtion I needed to help her break through to her higher state. Only at the first and last times did this go both ways. This broke my heart to find out that her concealment was intentional because she couldn't trust me to keep the personal separate from my alchemical priest or that knowing her deepest self would for some reason drive me off at a personal level. It wouldn't have. I had no conditions on accepting her. Acceptance has to be reciprical in an alchemical relationship.

Ghislain
10-22-2011, 09:41 AM
III

When I said, "A lot more than I thought III", I thought you may be making a mountain out of a mole
hill. However when you explained yourself I could see the issue went a lot deeper than I could hope to
understand.


My condolences on your loss. I have no words. I know there is nothing for me to say that will make your
loss easier. I hope you can understand what I can't put to words.

There are always lessons to be learnt in all situations...what the lesson is here I will have to meditate on to
find it.

Thanks for sharing.

Ghislain

solomon levi
10-24-2011, 05:32 PM
Greetings!
Wow III, that sounds familiar. :)
One of my enlightening moments in relationships was taking responsibility
for being lied to and cheated on. The fact was, if I had known the truth, I would
have left this girl - so she was "correct" to lie to me, because i would not have
accepted who she really was. It's too bad she wasn't secure enough to accept me
not accepting her, then she could have told the truth. :D

That was the relationship before my last relationship.

I really love the art of communication. If two people do it well, it's amazing where you can go.

Frater IA
10-24-2011, 06:34 PM
I'm throwin down on here. Yeah, while I'm of a different path, I have alot of the same issues. What many of the GD members run into with their serious relationships or marraiges, is that we reach a point that our life and our self has been so drastically changed and heightened in vibration, that we actually do communicate at a much different level to each other. We normally at this point will ask that our significant other be initiated into the GD, however, to go anywhere beyond neophyte is up to them soley. Many of us are forced into either divorce, or a fruitless marraige if our partner does not wish to become initiated, because there is so much that we must do to continue our personal growth, and if they do not work on their own, as well as if they stay outside the order we are not at liberty to tell them or show them most of what we do, so they in the end will hold us back in our great work. At this point major decisions must be made whether our relationship with our significant other is the priority or our personal great work is the priority. I mean, try explaining to your wife that you need to be left alone for 2 days while locked in your "study" so that you can complete a "study session" or "meditation". This, however, is normally not an issue until one reaches Portal Grade with the interest of Adepthood. I myself find at a much lower grade that there is a distancing between my wife and I sometimes. I am currently at a disadvantage in my new home because I don't have a "study" to do my works in, and am left with only my daily works to be done, and frankly, its not uncommon for people to walk through the room while I'm deep in concentration.

But yeah, it isn't just an alchemist thing, any who follows a spiritual, mystical, or occult/metaphysical path will sooner or later be in this situation. We communicate at a level where we have little or no social breeding left in our words so they are clear and precise of what their actual intent is. However, those we communicate to, listen in a way that their ego is still the one receiving the message.

III
10-24-2011, 07:15 PM
III

When I said, "A lot more than I thought III", I thought you may be making a mountain out of a mole
hill. However when you explained yourself I could see the issue went a lot deeper than I could hope to
understand.


My condolences on your loss. I have no words. I know there is nothing for me to say that will make your
loss easier. I hope you can understand what I can't put to words.

There are always lessons to be learnt in all situations...what the lesson is here I will have to meditate on to
find it.

Thanks for sharing.

Ghislain

Hi Ghislain,

Lessons to be learned ... They are often only seen in retrospect. They have usually been difficult for me. Learning to see deeply into ones self and others isn't unmitigated pleasure. With it comes responsibility. Compassion is needed and learned after enough tough lessons. Make sure you really really want to see behind the curtain before pulling it aside because it never goes back to how it was "before". Alchemy and the results are not what people think or fear or think they want. The results have to be sufficient as their own reward as real knowlege destroys the dreams and fantasies.

Life is a beach and then the sand gets in the works. Have fun.

III
10-25-2011, 02:04 AM
I'm throwin down on here. Yeah, while I'm of a different path, I have alot of the same issues. What many of the GD members run into with their serious relationships or marraiges, is that we reach a point that our life and our self has been so drastically changed and heightened in vibration, that we actually do communicate at a much different level to each other. We normally at this point will ask that our significant other be initiated into the GD, however, to go anywhere beyond neophyte is up to them soley. Many of us are forced into either divorce, or a fruitless marraige if our partner does not wish to become initiated, because there is so much that we must do to continue our personal growth, and if they do not work on their own, as well as if they stay outside the order we are not at liberty to tell them or show them most of what we do, so they in the end will hold us back in our great work. At this point major decisions must be made whether our relationship with our significant other is the priority or our personal great work is the priority. I mean, try explaining to your wife that you need to be left alone for 2 days while locked in your "study" so that you can complete a "study session" or "meditation". This, however, is normally not an issue until one reaches Portal Grade with the interest of Adepthood. I myself find at a much lower grade that there is a distancing between my wife and I sometimes. I am currently at a disadvantage in my new home because I don't have a "study" to do my works in, and am left with only my daily works to be done, and frankly, its not uncommon for people to walk through the room while I'm deep in concentration.

But yeah, it isn't just an alchemist thing, any who follows a spiritual, mystical, or occult/metaphysical path will sooner or later be in this situation. We communicate at a level where we have little or no social breeding left in our words so they are clear and precise of what their actual intent is. However, those we communicate to, listen in a way that their ego is still the one receiving the message.


with their serious relationships or marraiges, is that we reach a point that our life and our self has been so drastically changed and heightened in vibration, that we actually do communicate at a much different level to each other

You can say that again. In the sucessful partnered alchemy I am doing, that hasn't been a problem. We play a sort of leapfrog; we alternate who makes the change. Also, as we are doing an Alchemical Union, each time we add a level of Union the more we exist in a shared world rather than growing apart. We are growing together instead.

We communicate at a level where we have little or no social breeding left in our words so they are clear and precise of what their actual intent is. However, those we communicate to, listen in a way that their ego is still the one receiving the message

One can choose to "moderate" how something is said so that it can be heard so as not to push a person farther then they can leap. Some things that hit the unconscous ego trigers are too overwelmingly triggering and those can be used to have the person choose to watch for them, if they are willing.

But yeah, it isn't just an alchemist thing, any who follows a spiritual, mystical, or occult/metaphysical path will sooner or later be in this situation.

Or even hit it over and over in different ways as one advances in differnt directions.

I tried to pre-qualify each lady I was evaluating as a possible partner. I would ask them if they "could consider that the hidden workings of the world might not be what they expect" and if they "might consider evolving more rapidly". Then try to explain a little as the questions start. I found that there are plenty of quite aware ladies out there that might consider at least the type of alchemy I practice and would be willing participants. Many of them may already be participating in Goddess circles and are interested in finding out more about Tantric Alchemy.

I ONLY do an alchemy of equals and work at what ever level they are at. I won't do any of the practices that are done exploitively by those who maintain that the specific woman doesn't matter. As I am joining myself equally with a specific woman it matters very much. A poor choice that doesn't balance well can be with you a long time.

III
10-25-2011, 06:57 AM
Greetings!
Wow III, that sounds familiar. :)
One of my enlightening moments in relationships was taking responsibility
for being lied to and cheated on. The fact was, if I had known the truth, I would
have left this girl - so she was "correct" to lie to me, because i would not have
accepted who she really was. It's too bad she wasn't secure enough to accept me
not accepting her, then she could have told the truth. :D

That was the relationship before my last relationship.

I really love the art of communication. If two people do it well, it's amazing where you can go.

Hi Solomon,

that sounds familiar. :)
One of my enlightening moments in relationships was taking responsibility for being lied to and cheated on

That can be enlightening; especially learning to see how that is negotiated before it happens. If seen at that point different response can occur that then can affect what follows.

The fact was, if I had known the truth, I would have left this girl - so she was "correct" to lie to me, because i would not have accepted who she really was. It's too bad she wasn't secure enough to accept me not accepting her, then she could have told the truth

Engaging in an alchemical sequence wirh somebody will usually result in them exhibiting their worst behaviors. This usually brings things up so that they can be dealt with and changed. As E.J. Gold calls it the "rock tumbler" effect once needs to be aware of thie effect and prepared to deal with it alchemically. So if one engages with a "pathological liar" (a very common habit) expect to be lied to. People change when they learn to to stay concious and change their automatic behaviours. There is a degree of challange in playing with a pathological liar to get them to see past their automatic inclination to lie.

solomon levi
12-19-2012, 03:53 PM
Hi Ghislain,

I spent better than 90% of the time listening to her. Mostly she wouldn't let me get a word out sideways. She would make her statement. I would ask her a question trying to understand what meaning she was using. The whole dance around the circle, which she would repeat endlessly, was her avoiding saying what she meant. In trying to understand the assumptions behind what she was saying she would always dance sideways, contradicting herself over and over as she danced around the circle of avoidance. When I am in conversation with a person I can feel, be aware of, their triggers and avoidances. The closer she got to her root assumptions behind anything she said the harder she avoided them. She basically changed what she was saying over and over to avoid being pinned down to mean any specifric thing, so it was one contradiction after another. Everything that came down to "round and round the mulberrry bush..." at the basic levels became totally off limits to discussion in the future. She was unable or unwilling to define her terms. By the time we reached divorce minus 1 year it was impossible to talk about anything. Our kids, by that time ranging from 20-27 years old, thought she was going nuts. She was quite unwilling to have her meanings known. That allowed her. to deny any response I made based on any particular meaning. She HAD TO BE RIGHT, always. She was scientifically trained. She had been quite good at practicing critical thinking. in the first 15-20 years of our relationship. At that time I became more severely chronically ill. By having anything she said mean anything she wanted it to at any specific time it was impossible to understand what she said because she would never agree that any particular statement meant any specific thing. I'm willing to "own" my opinions or statements. When asked to explain more deeply I usually can. When asked to come down to a specific meaning or meanings in a specific situation, with or without qualifications, I usually can. She absolutely refused to "own" her expessed opinions and come down to a specific meaning or meanings. Everything she said was always ambiguous. This way she could always play "gotcha" no matter what possible meaning I was responding to. Then she said I was always "throwing grenades" when I refused to play into her "gotcha" routines. This was very tiresome and not how I wanted to live life. When I started recovering form the deficiency illnesses I started protesting her "gotcha" games by pointing out how the conversation would go in the "gotcha" game and refusing to play them out. That last year we were quite unable to talk about anything. She didn't want to be understood and I understood her much better than she was happy with. Please don't misunderstand me. I still think highly of her and miss the "her" of our first 20 years. Due to the neurological malfunctions I don't remember a lot of the next 16 years. Things changed when she started interpreting my illness as doing to her rather than characteristics of the neurolgical conditions. About 5 years into the illness, when things changed from "when I get well" to "if I get well" she got very depressed. My lowpoint was just before I solved the problem. My eyes were too blurry to read much of the time. I couldn't remember much. I had trouble learning things. I had CFS, FMS, subacute combined degeneration, congestive heart failure etc. I was falling, couldn't feel my feet and at times my legs. I was becoming incontinent. I was perhaps a month or three away from a wheelchair and diapers when I found the solution. As soon as I had improved enough that it looked like I might be able to take care of myself she filed for divorce. So looking back it's possible to say that she was preparing herself to bail for some years prior and was trying to hide that.

You do realise that this is the exact opposite of what this thread is about?
Would you do it differently today?
It's very common and "normal" to blame, to see what others won't own.
Where is the magic? the alchemy? the initation?

"I'm willing to "own" my opinions or statements. When asked to explain more deeply I usually can. When asked to come down to a specific meaning or meanings in a specific situation, with or without qualifications, I usually can. She absolutely refused to "own" her expessed opinions and come down to a specific meaning or meanings. Everything she said was always ambiguous. This way she could always play "gotcha" no matter what possible meaning I was responding to. Then she said I was always "throwing grenades" when I refused to play into her "gotcha" routines. This was very tiresome and not how I wanted to live life."

Why should she be like you if you are the alchemist/magician?
You should be able to be like her - to play her game, to dance with her.
You didn't take responsibility for that. You didn't want to live life that way,
and she didn't want to live your way. Sounds like equality to me.

I don't care about blame. My point is, a talented alchemist could resolve this smoothly and
wonderfully for both sides. If you couldn't perform the transmutation, you didn't understand
the subject you were working with. That's just alchemy. That's the fulcrum on which alchemy rests -
understanding nature, existence. It is not alchemical to say someone was unreasonable, unnatural...
they exist - figure it out. To fail to do so is to not know oneself, so there's no excuse not to.
We know blame doesn't work. Well, the presupposition does work. If you can't consider it, then what are you
dancing around? I know - it was hard for me to hear too. There are plenty of unreasonable insane people
I can blame. As a stoic philosopher (not the common usage applied to the word today), I love reason.
It agitates me when people aren't reasonable - when they don't simply see that the UNIverse is ONE, for example.
I could dismiss these people as ignorant or too complicated or unable to "see" without their images, etc and
still be within the lines of reason. But what about alchemy? What about magic?
To assume responsibility for the response you get is very mature.
Most people can't begin to consider it. But most aren't magicians.
Most people don't understand nature and haven't made the Philosophers' stone.

"I hope that you have realized by now," she went on, "that only a master stalker can be a master of controlled folly. Controlled folly doesn't mean to con people. It means, as my benefactor explained it, that warriors apply the seven basic principles of the art of stalking to whatever they do, from the most trivial acts to life and death situations.
"Applying these principles brings about three results. The first is that stalkers learn never to take themselves seriously; they learn to laugh at themselves. If they're not afraid of being a fool, they can fool anyone. The second is that stalkers learn to have endless patience. Stalkers are never in a hurry; they never fret. And the third is that stalkers learn to have an endless capacity to improvise."