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john_david_91
10-14-2011, 02:31 AM
I am a life-long, practicing Catholic, I love my Faith and my Lord and would never forsake Him for the sake of polite argument. So, what I will put below I know and believe to be right.

Alchemy was only "occult" because what they were doing, if done poorly, would have killed a lesser man, and also because of the Catholic Church's attempts at abolishing it after a "Protestant" called Isaac Casaubon related it to the Devil's work. Before Casaubon, Alchemy was practiced in many monasteries across Christendom. In the Middle Ages, most monasteries were akin to our modern conception of a hospital. The monks who practiced medicine practiced it not only physically, using the Essences of plants that grew locally in their region (one monastery in France had concocted a powerful anesthetic), but also Spiritually; which is what Med schools and Nursing schools profess in their daily work, known as the Holistic Approach. The words Holistic and Holy share the same linguistic origins from the greek holos meaning "whole, entirely" and can also be found in the etymology of the word Sacred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy#Etymology).

The Holistic Approach in the medical field, as I've described, is the approach that the patient is "one" entity, a combination of Mind, Body, and Spirit, and the aim of medical practice is to treat "ALL" aspects of the patient in all three of those realms. However, that is only textbook perfect and is hardly seen in its entirety in an actual medical facility. What has become known as Alchemy is the practice and application of the Holistic Approach.

Alchemy, unfortunately, has a vague origin, as does the Bible in relation to the individuals who penned it (not in relation to the fact that It is God's direct Word - we all know that It is). Now I'm sure if you've looked into it enough you would come across something known as the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus.

It reads thus:

"Truly, without Deceit, certainly and absolutely —

That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above corresponds to that which is Below, in the accomplishment of the Miracle of One Thing. And just as all things have come from One, through the Mediation of One, so all things follow from this One Thing in the same way.

Its Father is the Sun. Its Mother is the Moon. The Wind has carried it in his Belly. Its Nourishment is the Earth. It is the Father of every completed Thing in the whole World. Its Strength is intact if it is turned towards the Earth. Separate the Earth by Fire: the fine from the gross, gently, and with great skill.

It rises from Earth to Heaven, and then it descends again to the Earth, and receives Power from Above and from Below. Thus you will have the Glory of the whole World. All Obscurity will be clear to you. This is the strong Power of all Power because it overcomes everything fine and penetrates everything solid.

In this way was the World created. From this there will be amazing Applications, because this is the Pattern. Therefore am I called Thrice Greatest Hermes, having the three parts of the Wisdom of the whole World.

Herein have I completely explained the Operation of the Sun."

Looking at the second paragraph, upon much meditation of the subject, at least to me, it sounds like it is describing all things in this Universe as coming from God and are of God (which sounds closely similar to St. Thomas Aquinas' concept that God is the source, "un-caused cause", and primary force of motion in all things; Isaac Newton practically said the same thing with his Laws of Motion). The second paragraph also seems to be telling us (interpreting it through a Christian lens) that we should follow Christ. His Way is the way to perfection and balance of Mind, Body, and Spirit (represented in Alchemy as Sulfur, Salt, and Mercury). One would ask, "But where is the Soul in all this?" Well, alchemists attested that the Mind and the Soul were the same thing. A way to confirm this is in listening to Christ when he told us that to imagine having intercourse with someone is the same as the physical act of it.

Paragraphs three and four describe the 7 Alchemical Processes:

1. Calcination
2. Dissolution
3. Separation
4. Conjunction
5. Fermentation
6. Distillation
7. Coagulation

And yes, these are also the steps in modern, spiritless chemistry. But they are also the steps of the many things that we practice in our faith. We can even compare these seven steps to the Creation in Genesis and the before, during, and after of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. We can even correlate these seven stages to the Holy Mass, and there are even 7 Sacraments.

I don't want to take too much space discussing such correlation here, but if you'd like to find the inherent similarities between the Alchemical Processes and the Creation/Crucifixion/Holy Mass then be my guest and follow this link --> http://alchemylab.com/contents_solar.htm and scroll down to "Operations of Alchemy". All seven are there and the links for them describe the intellectual/soulful, spiritual, and physical manifestations of each step.

Example: Calcination involves the heating, burning, or destruction of a substance (i.e. the Scourging at the Pillar, The Crucifixion, and Christ's descent into Hell). Mental/Soulful and Spiritual Calcination is the destruction of Ego and of our attachments to the material world (i.e. The Agony in Gethsemane, Christ's 40 Days of Fasting, The Tempting of Christ).

The last paragraphs basically confirm that the 7 Alchemical Processes are derived from the steps God took in the Creation depicted in Genesis; 6 days of Creation and 1 of Rest. Now, where the Tablet says "Hence I am called Thrice Greatest Hermes..." (the translation is from the greek translation of the original Tablet, which has been lost to history). In Greek mythology, Hermes was the messenger god, the medium through which the Heavens could communicate to those on Earth and give those on Earth the knowledge needed to balance the Mind/Soul, Body, and Spirit. Of course there is no such thing as Hermes, so the Tablet must have mistaken an identity through the lens of Grecian mythology. The clue to who it "really" is lies with the phrase "Thrice Greatest", or from the Latin "Trismegistus". This, of course, is the title of which we give God when we identify Him as the Holy "Trinity".

So if Hermes Trismegistus wasn't Hermes but God Himself then where is this Emerald Tablet in the Bible? It is in Exodus 24; verse 12: And the Lord said to Moses: "Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments which I have written: that thou mayst teach them." Notice the structure of the sentence; God gave Moses "tables of stone" and (IN ADDITION TO) "the law" and "the commandments".

In conclusion, I cannot see how Alchemy, in this Christian sense, which must undoubtedly be the Truth, would want to be abhorred by Christians and abolished by the One Holy and Apostolic Church. Obviously, as purported by Exodus, God had given "tables of stone" to Moses in addition to the law and commandments. Of these tablets, surely, must have been the Emerald Tablet. And notice that God gave Moses 3 items (the tablets, law, and commandments). It is through Alchemy that God gave us the formula to connect and observe His Will in all aspects and in the balance of Mind/Soul, Body, and Spirit, and it is the Bible which is the recipe book.

MarkostheGnostic
10-14-2011, 11:05 AM
The One Mind of the Emerald Tablet, is spoken of in terms of Sun, Moon (Water), and Wind (Spirit), or Father-Son-Spirit, in other words, a Trinity. And chemistry is not always "spiritless!" Why, just look at LSD-25. That was organic chemistry, yet, Consciousness is not only evoked by its addition to the human being, in it's pure form, it scintillates in the dark from its Phosphorus (Light Bearer: Greek) atoms. Of course, the Greek word Phosphorus, means the same thing as its Latinized word -Lucifer! So, it really depends on how you look at things.

Andro
10-14-2011, 01:01 PM
I love my Faith and my Lord and would never forsake Him for the sake of polite argument.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no need to forsake your 'Lord'.

But if you are also able to make allowance for other perspectives as well (while keeping yours), you can still have polite discussions - even if you agree to disagree.


It is God's direct Word - we all know that It is

I suggest it would be healthier (for the sake of constructive discussions) to replace "we all know" with "I know".

Unless, of course, you are either using the Royal Plural, or meant to say "we all christians know".

But if you are projecting your personal belief system on everyone else (by saying - about the bible - that "we all know that it's god's direct word"), it is most likely to turn into a recipe for one-sided sermons instead of productive discussions. Sorry, this is the voice of experience talking...


it is the Bible which is the recipe book.

Recipe for what, if you don't mind my asking?

I agree that the bible contains many excellent alchemical allegories.

But (IMO) it also contains lots of means of maintaining political power and hierarchy via religious control.

I, for one, have zero interest in disputing/debating christian mythology in any kind of historical, moral or religious/self-righteous context.

But - I suppose I would be very interested in hearing more of your views on correlations between biblical texts and Alchemy.

Welcome to Alchemy Forums.

Frater IA
10-14-2011, 01:34 PM
I am a life-long, practicing Catholic, I love my Faith and my Lord and would never forsake Him for the sake of polite argument. So, what I will put below I know and believe to be right.



Are you telling us, or are you telling yourself?

john_david_91
10-14-2011, 07:38 PM
I suggest it would be healthier (for the sake of constructive discussions) to replace "we all know" with "I know".

Unless, of course, you are either using the Royal Plural, or meant to say "we all christians know".

But if you are projecting your personal belief system on everyone else (by saying - about the bible - that "we all know that it's god's direct word"), it is most likely to turn into a recipe for one-sided sermons instead of productive discussions. Sorry, this is the voice of experience talking...

I agree that this phrasing is rather ambiguous. It was constructed as such to be in the event that a Christian happened to read this, but also so to include "we all Christians know..."




Recipe for what, if you don't mind my asking?

I consider the Bible to be the recipe book for all aspects of Alchemy (and I don't mean that in a biased way in the least). I find that it gives the keys to the transmutation of corporeal and incorporeal Sulfur, Salts, and Mercuries.


But (IMO) it also contains lots of means of maintaining political power and hierarchy via religious control.

I have noticed, through my experience, that such political power, hierarchy, and religious control comes from various interpretations of Scripture that are born of the Seven Deadly Sins from their most minuscule to their most prominent manifestations in our realm of observation. It is a hope of mine that one day people will have finally interpreted the Bible as it was meant to be, and so far I have found that such interpretation comes from the Alchemical Processes described on the Emerald Tablet.


I suppose I would be very interested in hearing more of your views on correlations between biblical texts and Alchemy.

Welcome to Alchemy Forums.

I look forward to sharing my theories with you all and thank you, Androgynus, for your post ^_^

john_david_91
10-14-2011, 07:41 PM
Are you telling us, or are you telling yourself?

Both

Awani
10-14-2011, 10:12 PM
This might interest you: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?5-The-Bible

Andro: you said all I wished to say...

Interestingly, in a funny way, both I and john_david_91 has felt the same, even though we both have complete opposite opinions. Only in alchemy! Ha ha. But I must say that we differ in one aspect, and this could be debated at length.

As I have understood it you (john), and correct me if I am wrong, see proof in the Bible of alchemy and that you see alchemical iconography as metaphors for the Christian faith BUT I see that the Bible is a diluted form of alchemical text, thus Hermes is NOT God, but God is Hermes... if you get me... and if you do there is a major difference. Because I think (and I may have misunderstood all I have read so far on alchemy), but alchemy is not someones will... it is all about our own will.


It is through Alchemy that God gave us the formula to connect and observe His Will in all aspects and in the balance of Mind/Soul, Body, and Spirit, and it is the Bible which is the recipe book.

IMO!

:cool:

john_david_91
10-14-2011, 11:57 PM
...alchemy is not someones will... it is all about our own will.

I do have to say that I don't particularly see Alchemical Iconography as "strictly" metaphors "for" Christianity. You are right that I see proof of Alchemy in the Bible as much as I see proof of Alchemy and Its Processes in daily life Sulfuricly, Salticly, and Mercuricly. According to the Book of Genesis it was the Seven Alchemical Processes that The All used to create the Universe (and ultimately they ARE OF The All/One Only One/ect.), therefore I see the Laws of Nature as the Will of God both Above and Below. My view of the Alchemist is that he exercises "his" will to further God's Will (i.e. Laws of Nature) which seems to be exactly what the Philosophers meant when describing the reasons for the Praxis. Everyone has the choice to strive towards perfection, those who choose to do so become Alchemists, thereby it becomes "their will" to become perfect (it becomes OUR WILL). We cannot, as the Philosophers have repeated countless times, become perfect by our own shear will. Only through the Will of the Source (or it can be called Laws of Nature, the Universal Fire) can this perfection be obtained. We cannot achieve perfection WITHOUT the Will of God for Its Will is what dictates and maintains the mechanics of the Universe.


thus Hermes is NOT God, but God is Hermes...

I am not attempting to douse your flame of belief, but merely expressing what my observations have revealed to me through the 7 Alchemical Processes applied to the Sulfur of the subject of this study and of my being.

The Emerald Tablet is lost to history, its true location no longer known. Though we may all have our theories there is no guarantee that it will be found in our lifetime, but we can hope. When it was known and tangible and seen by those who came before us it was studied by many, of those many were the Greeks, whose translation survived the disappearance of the Tablet itself. The Greeks had many gods which denominated a Sulfuric, Saltic, and Mercuric aspect of Nature. Hermes was the messenger god, one who communicated to the divine and the mortal and represented both. The Greeks had no comprehension of Monotheism and so strove to identify the individual who had engraved the Tablet, concluding it to be Hermes because of the nature of that which is said upon it. Though through Alchemy the Greeks were shown something bigger than their pantheon of separate gods they could not bring themselves to abandon complexity for simplicity. But they left a clue as to the origin of the Tablet by calling Hermes the Thrice Great. As remarked by me and another member this is the same as saying one is a "trinity". It is this vital clue that links the Emerald Tablet and Alchemy to the monotheistic God (in Alchemy known as the Source, Force, All, One Only One, ect.).

Your statement, dev, correlates with the statement that "1 does not equal 1, but rather 1 equals 1". "Hermes" was the only way in which the Greeks were able to describe the Christian God (the Alchemist's Source).

Awani
10-15-2011, 12:11 AM
I have no belief really, only hunches...

So then you disagree with the theories that this ONE thing is: imagination, psychedelics, an elixir of some sort etc etc (there are many)... but that in fact it is God itself?

I get you on the Will thing... and I agree... I guess it comes down to what we define as God? As you keep using Christian in your argument then we are clearly not from the same angle. What is your opinion on Allah? Wrong or same entity/force? If you do think so then it is really not a Christian God, just what the Christians called it as others have called it by other names.

:cool:

john_david_91
10-15-2011, 12:32 AM
Don't get me wrong. We need those elixirs and such to prolong our lives in the material world so we can further build ourselves Sulfuricly and Mercuricly towards perfection. I do believe that it is through the imitation of Christ (who I believe to have BEEN a living Philosopher's Stone and Alchemist) that we can achieve the perfection that the Philosophers strove for and what Alchemists strive for even now.

And you are most certainly right, dev. It does indeed come down to what we define as God, and you are right that it is not really a Christian God, because It is limitless, infinite, to seclude It to one denomination makes It imperfect, which is impossible for God. Certainly others have called It buy other names.

thoth
10-15-2011, 01:07 PM
I do wonder at the ceremony of the Catholic mass, and if this could be an echo of a more ancient ceremony from the temples, on the manifestation of the Spiritus Mundi - The incantation sound and hand gestures of the priest condensing the SM from above into the chalice receptacle below, and the belief that this is the body & blood of Jesus - ie a spiritual substance brought into physical raelity.

Maybe the current version is mimicking something that was lost, that was more tangible.

"On this rock (stone -Pilosopher's) I build my church".........ie the church is founded on alchemy

MarkostheGnostic
10-15-2011, 06:01 PM
Out of context, I'm afraid. 'Rock' is used linguistically in a few places in the NT. The first bishop of Rome is Peter, from 'petra,' which in Greek (πέτρα) is rock. Today we still have Saltpeter, Sodium Nitrate (salt rock). One can find references to Fire, Water, Wind, Air (and Spirit) in Greek (πνεύμα), in the NT, but these derive from Aristotle and even before him with Empedocles. Earlier still was Pythagoras. Rock implies stability across time.

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its fall!” - Luke 6:47-49

One must be cautious not to see everything through a pet model. Look at Clark Heinrich, for example. He sees the Amanita muscaria in virtually every classic religious painting as evidence that it was a great secret held by the Church. Admittedly, a basilica was unearthed that had mosaic frescoes of Amanitas, and even the snails they fed them to, which in turn would be consumed by the faihful (the snail's metabolic process filtered some toxicity out). And there has been discovered a fresco of the Amanita as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. These artifacts probably illustrate a rare psychedelic Christian church, not the defining of a mainstream movement. When I was into ceremonial magick as a kid, the silvery kaleidoscopic wheels against the clouds I saw on acid were interpreted as magick circles. When I moved into Yoga, those same visions were interpreted as mandalas. When I got into seminary, I interpreted those visions as being related to the Ophanim - the 'wheels-within-wheels' in the Book of Enoch, or in Ezekiel 1:15-21, or Daniel 7:9. Just note your associations, but try not to project them onto writings that were not written with your own mind-set.

solomon levi
10-15-2011, 10:19 PM
Hi John David.
Nice hanging in there! :)

I'm not Christian per se, though I see a lot of that iconography and archetypal condensation in alchemy.
There were some times where I saw visions of Mary and Jesus that were especially related to my alchemy.
Anyway, I was going to post some of my views on what you wrote the other day, but the general response
that was showing could be interpreted as antagonistic and I didn't want you to feel unwelcome. That's why I say
"nice hanging in there." Whether we agree or disagree, you're input is valuable to the forums. :)
Religion is always a touchy subject - everyone trying to distill the truth from the dogma.

john_david_91
10-15-2011, 11:34 PM
I do wonder at the ceremony of the Catholic mass, and if this could be an echo of a more ancient ceremony from the temples, on the manifestation of the Spiritus Mundi - The incantation sound and hand gestures of the priest condensing the SM from above into the chalice receptacle below, and the belief that this is the body & blood of Jesus - ie a spiritual substance brought into physical reality.

I would certainly agree with you that this is an older tradition, one that can be found in the Book of Genesis (14: 18): "And Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought forth bread and wine. He was a priest of God Most High..." Not much is known about Melchizedek, but from the descriptions of him throughout the Old Testament he appears to have been a precursor to Christ. The tradition of the Catholic Mass pays homage to this ancient tradition practiced by Melchizedek, who might have also been an Alchemist and in possession of the Emerald Tablet before Moses. I would not be surprised if this tradition that Melchizedek practiced had spread far and wide seeing how it was preserved and remembered even unto the time of the establishment of the Holy Catholic Church.


Maybe the current version is mimicking something that was lost, that was more tangible.

To me, in my Faith, and looking at the events in the Bible, Christ's Life, His Last Supper, and His Saltic Calcination on the Cross and Sulfuric/Mercuric Calcination in Hell overrides the Old Covenant and the Old Law given to Moses; meaning: the old way is no longer tangible. Christ was Calcinated on the Cross to rid Him of His mortal (Saltic) impurity and was Calcinated in Hell to have His Sulfuric/Mercuric composition tried, and thereby, after His hellfire Distillation ascended back into His Body and was Resurrected, a living Philosopher's Stone. Therefore, to me at least, the "current version" is an improved and proven version carried out by Christ.

I can offer the following link and photograph as proof that through Christ a more perfected Process is achievable, making it currently tangible in relation to any previous Method. http://www.sacredheartofjesus.ca/Naju/naju.htm http://www.thongdiepducme.org/naju/update_news/living_heart/19950922-eb3.jpg


"On this rock (stone -Pilosopher's) I build my church".........ie the church is founded on alchemy

This is a more Sulfuric/Mercuric interpretation of what is being said here by Christ, but does not discount any Saltic interpretation for it is through all three that anyone may be able to carry out the Praxis of Alchemy. I must agree that the Church is founded on Alchemy, but possibly more specifically the Alchemy of Christ.

john_david_91
10-15-2011, 11:37 PM
Just note your associations, but try not to project them onto writings that were not written with your own mind-set.

The Bible was written for all regardless of personal belief, or opinions.

john_david_91
10-15-2011, 11:54 PM
I was going to post some of my views on what you wrote the other day, but the general response
that was showing could be interpreted as antagonistic and I didn't want you to feel unwelcome.

Hi solomon levi,

It can be hard to read, or listen, to a Christian when he, or she, is debating a subject within a community where the Christian may be in the minority of a general opinion. I can completely understand why someone would prefer to read Biblical testimony and interpretations with a grain of salt and interpret responses on either side of a debate to be "antagonistic".

I enjoy reading many different point of views (otherwise I would not be here, would I hahaha). Though I may be a life-long Catholic I have spent a good many years reading texts other than the Bible. I practice martial arts and Asian methods of meditation, and believe in a Universal Energy, Universal Fire, Chi, or whatever else you want to call it. I love reading The Da Vinci Code, and think it's a wonderful book; it doesn't bother me if Christ married Mary Magdalene and gave her child or not. The way I see it, if He did, then He did it with a mindset that must have made sex unsinful.

My responses aren't meant, nor written, to be antagonistic, but merely to present my evidence to the subject without bias. If my responses are interpreted as antagonistic, please think of them rather as Calcinating. As Alchemists we should always remember that it is through fire which all things are tested and purified. Debate and our evidence we present concerning a subject all fuel the furnace of which will emerge the Truth.

john_david_91
10-16-2011, 12:01 AM
... and thank you for the compliment, solomon levi. ^_^

Albion
10-16-2011, 05:22 PM
I believe I may have found this [first article] on the Levity site several years ago. I
hope the author, Jon Marshall, doesn't mind my posting it here. I'll certainly delete
it if he does.
__________________________________________________

Alchemy & Christianity

"I can only really discuss the question of alchemists in England. But before the
dissolution of the monasteries, there were basically two types of alchemist in
that country: the monk and the 'licensee'.

Licensee's were those, usually people of some small estate, who practised
alchemy on the understanding that they did not break the law by violating the
perogatives of the mint, and that they reported any success to the monarch.

You might think of Ripley and Norton as examples of these two streams.

In neither case does there seem to have been much questioning of alchemy as
anti-christian (despite alchemical texts regularly being attributed to heretics,
or people of suspect faith such as Roger bacon, Arnald de Villanova, Ramon Lull,
Geber etc). Even the papal bill of 1317 issued by Pope John XXII seems more
concerned with the devaluation of currency than any spiritual danger.

I would suspect (without having yet obtained the article that our attention was
recently drawn to), that the banning of alchemy among the franciscans and
dominicans at various monastries (during the late 13th, early 14th centuries)
was posibly more to do with the feeling that alchemy was a distraction from
their real work or a burden on their funds- and that excommunication was the
penalty for repeated disobedience not for heresy.

When alchemy was finally outlawed in England in 1403-4 it was explicitly because
of problems with the currency and the economy. Mutliplication of gold and silver
was punishable as a felony- which i believe was death and forfiture of goods.

Despite this there is plenty of evidence that alchemy continued in the
monsteries, and again we have cases arising from 'visitations' that priors were
being found guilty of, or charged with, spending their monasteries revenue on
alchemy (and loosing it), and in at least one case of issuing false coinage.
I know of non being charged with heresy.

Another important reason for the 'class' basis of alchemy is literacy- the most
likely place to get an education was in the church, or if you came form a landed
family.

After the dissolution of the monasteries, alchemy shifts towards medicine or
manufacture- to enable educated people who had no property or position to
survive. Thomas Charnock is a well known alchemist from this period who not
only supported himself through alchemical medicine, but proposed a gold making
factory to Elizabeth I. Other more conservative manufacturing ventures were not
uncommon; such as the 'society for the new art' involving thomas smith, leicester,
burley etc making copper from iron.

Thus despite alchemy's, to me at least, heretical overtones, the church does not
seem to have prosecuted alchmists as heretics before the reformation.

I beleive that after the reformation that alchemy tended in Europe to be more
associated with protestants than catholics (ie hugenots in france) and thus
became more likely to be considered heretical or suspect. And there is frances
yates thesis that 'Rosicrucianism' was associated with an attempt to build a
protestant esoteric empire, a movement defeated at the battle of white mountain,
and forever lost in the 30 years war- which would have made alchemy even more
suspect to the church.

Of course post reformation (particuarly about the late 16th early 17th
centuries) was also the most intense time of prosecution of witches. Van helmont
was 'investigated' by the inquisition for explaining things that were really
caused by demons by natural causes, paracelsian writings were put on the Index,
Bruno was burnt etc.

So, I guess I am arguing that hostility to alchemy had originaly to do with
maintneance of economic power and after the reformation had largely to do with
preserving spiritual power."

-Jon Marshall

_________________________________________________

History of Chartreuse

"According to tradition, a marshal of artillery to French king Henry IV, François
Hannibal d'Estrées, presented the Carthusian monks at Vauvert, near Paris, with
an alchemical manuscript that contained a recipe for an "elixir of long life" in 1605.
The recipe eventually reached the religious order's headquarters at the Grande
Chartreuse monastery, in Voiron, near Grenoble. It has since then been used to
produce the "Elixir Végétal de la Grande Chartreuse". The formula is said to call
for 130 herbs, flowers, and secret ingredients combined in a wine alcohol base.
The monks intended their liqueur to be used as medicine. The recipe was further
enhanced in 1737 by Brother Gérome Maubec."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartreuse_(liqueur)
__________________________________________________

The Jewish Alchemists

http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Alchemists-Raphael-Patai/dp/0691006423/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318788986&sr=1-1

Albion
10-16-2011, 06:38 PM
Obviously, as purported by Exodus, God had given "tables of stone" to Moses in addition to the law and commandments. Of these tablets, surely, must have been the Emerald Tablet. And notice that God gave Moses 3 items (the tablets, law, and commandments).

Assuming, for the moment, that such is the case, one might grant there were other “mountaintops” as well, such as:

Outer alchemy (Waidan)

Chinese alchemy can be divided into two methods of practice which are [Waidan] or "external alchemy" and [Neidan] or "internal alchemy". Doctrine can be accessed to describe these methods in greater detail; the majority of Chinese alchemical sources can be found in the Taozang, the "Taoist Canon".

The term Waidan can be divided into two parts: Wai meaning outside or exterior and Dan referring to alchemy, elixir and cinnabar (mercury). Waidan is performed using an elixir often containing herbal or chemical substances found outside of the body. Waidan not only involved the use of an elixir but included oral instructions, the building of a laboratory, kindling the fire used to produce the elixir, as well as observing rules about seclusion and purification and performing ceremonies to protect the ritual area. Waidan can also include following certain dietary regiments including the avoidance of specific foods. Taking medicines and elixirs can be referred to outer elixir or weidan; these practices occur outside of the body until they are verified by the ingestion of medicines, herbs, and pills to bring about physical changes within the body, separate to the soul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Alchemy

Rasayana

Rasayan, a Sanskrit word (with literal meaning: Path (ayana) of the Juice (rasa), or Elixir vitae), is used to describe chemistry and alchemy, and chemistry is generally called Rasayan Shastra in Sanskrit, Nepali, Marathi, Hindi, Kannada and several other languages. Ancient rasayan texts center around the use of prepared forms of mercury or cinnabar (see samskaras), as do occidental alchemical texts. However, there is also ample mention of the preparation of medical tinctures in the ancient science of rasayan; rasayan is in fact a part of Ayurveda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasayana

III
10-16-2011, 09:02 PM
Hi solomon levi,

It can be hard to read, or listen, to a Christian when he, or she, is debating a subject within a community where the Christian may be in the minority of a general opinion. I can completely understand why someone would prefer to read Biblical testimony and interpretations with a grain of salt and interpret responses on either side of a debate to be "antagonistic".

I enjoy reading many different point of views (otherwise I would not be here, would I hahaha). Though I may be a life-long Catholic I have spent a good many years reading texts other than the Bible. I practice martial arts and Asian methods of meditation, and believe in a Universal Energy, Universal Fire, Chi, or whatever else you want to call it. I love reading The Da Vinci Code, and think it's a wonderful book; it doesn't bother me if Christ married Mary Magdalene and gave her child or not. The way I see it, if He did, then He did it with a mindset that must have made sex unsinful.

My responses aren't meant, nor written, to be antagonistic, but merely to present my evidence to the subject without bias. If my responses are interpreted as antagonistic, please think of them rather as Calcinating. As Alchemists we should always remember that it is through fire which all things are tested and purified. Debate and our evidence we present concerning a subject all fuel the furnace of which will emerge the Truth.


Hi john_david-91,


As Alchemists we should always remember that it is through fire which all things are tested and purified

I do have some rather unpleasant memories of being burned at the stake some incarnations ago. Does that make me tested and purified now? What I do remember about it was that I was incredibly pissed off at those doing this and have not liked the church since then, if I ever did. Of course I was just one of many millions the church murdered of the pagans (Goddess religions among others) and gnostics. This puts them, after adjustment for relative rates of mass murder compared to Earth's population behing the Muslim slaughter in India, and right up there in the company as such greats of mass murder as Stalin, Mao and Hitler.

The Gospel of Thomas is most excellent. The Kingdom is at hand for all those with the eyes to see. The Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Judas are also very interesting.

A few have mentioned mushrooms and the bible as a book of formulas

John Allegro wrote a fascinating book called THE SACRED MUSHROOM AND THE CROSS that translates the bible as a set of directions for the preparation and use of the Aminita muscaria muchroom for sacremental usage including sexual rituals. Some other mushrooms, psyilocybin containing ones, are often called "flesh of God" or "flesh of the gods". Allegro is a linguist (I don't know whether he is cunning) who went back to Aramaic for the translations. So we find "Jesus Christ" in Aramaic is a mushroom, the Aminita Muscaria.

Andro
10-16-2011, 10:20 PM
He did it with a mindset that must have made sex unsinful.

In what way(s) can sex be 'sinful' (in your opinion)?

Could you please elaborate (from your perspective) the difference between 'sinful' and 'unsinful' sex?

Preferably with an example or two for each category?

Also, could you please share your definition of 'sin'?

john_david_91
10-17-2011, 02:50 AM
In what way(s) can sex be 'sinful' (in your opinion)?

Could you please elaborate (from your perspective) the difference between 'sinful' and 'unsinful' sex?

Preferably with an example or two for each category?

Also, could you please share your definition of 'sin'?

In my faith sex is viewed as a golden window of opportunity for various vices to rise or reinstate themselves in the psyche, and therefore, into the soul, making it impure once more. I am a supporter of such a claim.

Sinful sex would be sex performed as a consequence to the presence of personal vices (i.e. Seven Deadly Sins) which decrease the purity of one's Sulfur, Salt, and Mercury. An example that I can think of is being more lustful than thankful to your partner and to God that you are even performing an act of creation.

Unsinful sex would be intercourse performed during a state of personal purity Sulfuricly, Salticly, and Mercuricly. An example I can think of for this would be if you performed copulation while maintaining virtue, acknowledging the role of sex under the Laws of Nature (aka the Will of God), and giving thanks to your partner and to God for this particular role in Nature.

To me, possibly modified from my Church's broad definition, Sin is the act of knowingly, or unknowingly, causing your Sulfuric, Saltic, and Mercuric composition to become disharmonious in relation to the Harmony of the Will of God (aka Laws of Nature).

III
10-19-2011, 05:33 PM
In my faith sex is viewed as a golden window of opportunity for various vices to rise or reinstate themselves in the psyche, and therefore, into the soul, making it impure once more. I am a supporter of such a claim.

Sinful sex would be sex performed as a consequence to the presence of personal vices (i.e. Seven Deadly Sins) which decrease the purity of one's Sulfur, Salt, and Mercury. An example that I can think of is being more lustful than thankful to your partner and to God that you are even performing an act of creation.

Unsinful sex would be intercourse performed during a state of personal purity Sulfuricly, Salticly, and Mercuricly. An example I can think of for this would be if you performed copulation while maintaining virtue, acknowledging the role of sex under the Laws of Nature (aka the Will of God), and giving thanks to your partner and to God for this particular role in Nature.

To me, possibly modified from my Church's broad definition, Sin is the act of knowingly, or unknowingly, causing your Sulfuric, Saltic, and Mercuric composition to become disharmonious in relation to the Harmony of the Will of God (aka Laws of Nature).

Hi john_david_91

Thank Goddess that we engage in prayerful sex as ecstatic communion with the divine for several hours. And of course prayerful adoration in yoni puja and lingam puja are wondrous experiences in the ecstatic invocation of the divine. I'd hate to think that we were not performing these prayers correctly and not generating and consuming the sacrements, the three medicines and the Elixir of Life, properly.

71xt2xb3xr7
12-01-2011, 08:01 PM
I have noticed, through my experience, that such political power, hierarchy, and religious control comes from various interpretations of Scripture that are born of the Seven Deadly Sins from their most minuscule to their most prominent manifestations in our realm of observation. It is a hope of mine that one day people will have finally interpreted the Bible as it was meant to be, and so far I have found that such interpretation comes from the Alchemical Processes described on the Emerald Tablet.

I being a Christian Alchemist agree that the Emerald Tablet is the Key to proper interpretations of The Bible.

Andro
12-01-2011, 09:39 PM
I being a Christian Alchemist agree that the Emerald Tablet is the Key to proper interpretations of The Bible.

'PROPER' interpretation?

There is no such thing as a 'proper' interpretation of anything, bible and other similar mythologies included - only specific rationalization(s) to fit ones belief system(s), mental/genetic (or acquired) predisposition or lifestyle. At best - - - working applications rather than 'proper' interpretations... Or in other words: Whatever works... for YOU...

vega33
12-02-2011, 08:54 PM
Not only are Christianity and Alchemy not contradictory to one another, they are quite amenable to one another.

Ephesians 4:6-11


6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Here St Paul is discussing Christ, but he could just as easily be discussing the Universal Spirit which alchemy claims permeates all things, which as the Emerald Tablet points out "ascends to heaven and descends (in)to (the) earth". Saint Paul also says that the deity is in all and moves through all, and in fact this Universal Spirit which is the key to all miracles is what moves in sound, light, cosmic rays, heat etc... it organizes and brings together the subtle matter and brings it to such a state that it may glow. The Corpus Hermeticum (which was most likely influenced by the Christianity of the era) speaks of the mixing bowl into which God placed Mind as a gift for (hu)man(kind), and points out that to have this Mind which comes from without is the gift of God - that which is referred to in orthodox Christianity as the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Again, from the same opening chapters of Ephesians:

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Here Saint Paul hints that this Universal Spirit, the Son of God, is what joins the building together. "In him too you are being built together". The injunction to love ones neighbour as ones-self is in reality a reflection of this omnipresence of the Spiritus Mundi uniting all things. The title of the alchemical tract "Amor Proximi" could just as easily be referring to the love of ones neighbour as it could be to the secret bond that joins matter together and in-forms it. Christ recognised this and provided this revelation of Love to the world, but, as is typical of man with religious revelation, very few actually listened to it and instead today we have dogma where we could have objective truth. Max Planck recognized this when he spoke of an intelligent mind being the matrix of all matter... this mind, which really is the gift of God, is what people miss with all the chemical manipulations and is what separated Paracelsus, Lully et al from the average puffer on the street. But I have probably said too much and overstepped my oath :P.

solomon levi
12-05-2011, 07:10 PM
On "proper interpretation"...
it's kind of an alchemical rule that things can be interpreted three ways (at least).

Personally, I've been not caring for the word 'alchemy' so much. It has accrued
too specialised of a meaning IMO, and it's really the same secret that all Perenial
Philosophies point to.
The Rosicrucians assimilated Christianity and alchemy very well, as did Jacob Boehme
and many, many more. Think of all the Abbots, Monks, Popes, etc. Basil Valentine,
Roger Bacon, etc, etc.
Christ is the stone. It's just that Christ isn't some person named Jesus who was born 2012 years ago.
Obviously alchemy is older than that. Before the New Testament, IHShVH was IHVH...

But to emphasize the Christian side of alchemy is merely personal preference (in these days anyway).
Hermes, the Father of alchemy, was not a christian. The same can be said of many Philosophers who
existed before and after the year 1 AD. It is called the Philosophers' Stone, not the Christians' Stone.

III
12-10-2011, 09:00 PM
I quite agree, alchemy far predates anything Christian though it wasn't called alchemy. The Catholic church never liked competition from other people having direct revelatory experiences that bypasses the priests and hierarchy. I have memories of being burned at the stake for some such heresy. I teach "Christ Consciousness" but that doesn't make me Christian and I in no way have a Christian outlook or beliefs. I don't limit myself to Chrisitan dogma. That in no way affects being able to enter Christ Consciousness which also far predates Christianty. As stated in THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS "The kingdom is at hand" even if unobserved by most.

There is nothing quite like KNOWING (gnosis) to throw out dogma and belief and nonsense spouted by priests. I was berated quite soundly by a Catholic woman for being able to enter into gnostic prayer and gnosis with her despite being not at all Christian. She had been taught such by a Jesuit brother with whom she was having an affair when she was a novice nun. Somehow she was under the opinion that since I was not Catholic I shouldn't know such or be able to participate.

"Proper" interpretation allows alchemy to work. Of course what one person considers proper may not be considered "proper" by another. Some people consider sexual alchemy to be indecent. And with proper interpretation it is; "If it is long enough, hard enough and in far enough, it's in decent"

MarkostheGnostic
12-11-2011, 06:38 AM
+++ AMEN +++ (as, in Amen-Ra, most likely). ;)

http://i44.tinypic.com/2q1s66x.jpg

III
12-11-2011, 09:37 PM
+++ AMEN +++ (as, in Amen-Ra, most likely). ;)

http://i44.tinypic.com/2q1s66x.jpg



Hi MarkostheGnostic,

I have some memories of being trained from teenager onwords for some priesthood out in the desert with a bunch of young priests and priestesses in training. It was for a "new" preisthood. Perhaps it was under Akhenaton. It was definitely alchemical training from what I know now. Something changed and some armed men came to kill us in the night. Some of us got away into the desert. During the years of training the male rejects were castrated to one of 3 degrees.


A Christian tie-in- http://www.geocities.ws/karenspecial/castrate.html
Tertullian admitted that the “divine mysteries” of Christianity were virtually the same as the “devilish mysteries” of pagan saviors like Attis. Popularity of Attis’s cult in Rome led to Christian adoption of some of the older god’s ways. One of the best kept secrets of early Christianity was its preaching of castration for the special inner circle of initiates, who won extra grace with this demonstration of chastity. They taught, following the wisdom of Solomon, “Blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands has wrought no iniquity.” Jesus himself advocated castration: “There be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it” (Matthew 19:12).
Several early fathers of the church did receive it. Origen was highly praised for having castrated himself. Justin’s Apologia said proudly that Roman surgeons were besieged by faithful men requesting the operation. Tertullian declared, “The kingdom of heaven is thrown open to eunuchs.” Justin advised that Christian boys be emasculated before puberty, so their virtue was permanently protected. Three Christians who tried to burn Diocletian’s palace were described as eunuchs.

Throughout the middle ages, cathedral choirs included castrati, emasculated before puberty to preserve their virtue and their soprano voices, which were considered more pleasing to God than the “impure” female soprano. Women were not allowed to sing in church choirs, anyway.
Castration was advocated also for monks who could not fend off the demons of sexual desire. It was forcibly imposed on the monk Abelard, whose love affair with his pupil Heloise caused a scandal in the church. But there were others who seem to have accepted surgical chastity on a voluntary basis. Such men assumed the title of Hesychasti, “permanently chaste ones” or “those who are at peace.” The title was associated particularly with the monks of Mount Athos, so carefully ascetic that even to the present day no female creature is allowed on the holy mountain – hens, cows, sows, nanny goats, and women all equally forbidden.
It is likely that Mount Athos was named after Attis, and may have been a shrine served by his eunuch priests in pre-Christian times, situated close to his Phyrgian home. There was a Magna Mater figure connected with Mount Athos up to the early 14th century. The monk were labeled heretics for being too deeply involved with the teachings of a certain so-called nun named Irene – “Peace,” the third persona of Triple Aphrodite embodied in her priestess-Horae. Irene, as Crone, would have been the priestess of castrations hinted in the myths of such lovers of the goddesses as Anchises and Adonis. When the church purged Mount Athos of the influence of Irene, the abbot Lazarus was expelled. With a companion named Barefooted Cyril, Lazarus wandered through Bulgaria preaching the redeeming virtues of nakedness and self-emasculation.
It seems that the cult of Attis and Cybele continued to influence Christianity in the Balkans for many centuries. Balkan monastic communities were organized in groups of fifty, like older “colleges” of the Great Mother’s emasculated priests. In Thrace, the Great Mother had the name of Cottyto, mother of the hundred-handed giant Cottus, an allegorical figure representing her fifty spiritual sons with two hands each. Her worship persisted underground, long enough for the church to define it as witchcraft, and to label Cottyto a demon. In 1619 a booklet published in Paris suggested the same Balkan tradition of the priest who dedicated himself to god in a manner that was then considered heretical: “the devil cut off his privy parts.”
Ritual castration was again revived by the 18th century Russian sectaries calling themselves Skoptsi, “castrated ones.” They also called themselves People of God, insisting that removal of their genitals brought them profound spiritual powers. Russia’s “mad monk” Rasputin was a member of this sect. Since Rasputin was famed for his affairs with women, few of his contemporaries would have believed him a eunuch; but they had forgotten what eastern harem-keepers knew well enough: that eunuchs are quite capable of providing women with sexual pleasure. Rasputin’s hold over his female devotees was in any case a curious combination of spiritual and sensual obsessions.

"You're damned tootin' Rasputin" as they say. A Siberian sect Rasputin was a reputedly a member of used the fly agaric mushroom, the one that is the subject of THE SACRED MUSHROOM AND THE CROSS by John Allegro, in shamanic and possibly alchmical, sex rituals. His definition of "Christian Alchemy" might be different from those of some others. If John Allegro's hypothesis is accurate and the Bible is an alchemical/mushroom sex cult instruction book.then Raputin might be seen as being a traditional old-fashioned traditional Christian sex alchemist, bringing it right up to date into the 20th century. Some of the most extraordinary mystical experiences I've had were during alchemical sex with "flesh of the gods" mushrooms of some popularity in these parts.

However, as far as Rasputin being castrated I'm sure it would have been noticed by his lady friends. And even if not noticed by ladies, some alchemical groups are reputed to have examined a male candidate for "completeness" and rejecting for even circumcision because of lack of wholeness. Rasputin was also much hairier than would have been expected of a casrtati. Also, as it would be expected that he would be able to contribute the male generated portion of the Elixer of Life, if he didn't/couldn't then that would be noticed, no Elixer, no sacrement. Elixer is noticably different from any or all of the 3 medicines so everybody would notice. If he was not practicing a sexual alchemy it might have gone unnoticed. However, he doesn't display the documented physical changes of long term castration.

Rasputin is not my idea of the ideal alchemical man or anything of the sort. He may have been a primative mystic or who knows. What his significance was, if any, I can't tell you.

Chenkel
01-10-2012, 12:17 AM
In scanning this thread there's a burning question in my mind...

On what grounds do folks here think that Western alchemy is pre-Christian? While there were certainly *related* pre-Christian myths and legends and philosophies and craftsmanship, in studying the history I can't find evidence that alchemy as we know it existed before Christianity.

For instance I'm reading Lindsay's book on alchemy's origins in Greaco Roman Egypt right now. It seems to me that while important texts that are *attributed* to folks like Ostanes and Hermes who *may* have been historical pre-Christian figures, the texts themselves are post-Christ. As such, I'm likely to believe that the attributions are simply part of the pseudoepigraph tradition. I'm not entirely convinced that there was alchemy more than 100 or so years before Zosimos.

From a historical perspective (and please understand that I enjoy the speculation but that's not what I'm looking for here), does anyone have something that gives concrete evidence otherwise?

solomon levi
01-10-2012, 02:53 AM
Well, Pythagoras and Plato lived B.C.
Some equate Hermes with Enoch. Some say he was involved
in building the pyramids.
That Jesus actually existed could be considered speculation by some. :)

Chenkel
01-10-2012, 03:10 AM
Sure. But we can concretely date the emergence of Christianity as mid-first-century-ish, historical JC or not.

I would consider the notion that Pythagoras and Plato themselves wrote alchemical texts to be speculative/curious. Likewise the Hermes Enoch connection. Though I would consider all of that to fall into “*related* pre-Christian myths and legends and philosophies”.

solomon levi
01-10-2012, 07:21 AM
Well, Plato's Timaeus is quite alchemical.
Besides the elemental basics and cosmology, he tells us that
"adamant is the scion of gold".
But mainly I would say that he isn't describing what
we generally consider as laboratory alchemy.

III
01-11-2012, 12:43 AM
In scanning this thread there's a burning question in my mind...

On what grounds do folks here think that Western alchemy is pre-Christian? While there were certainly *related* pre-Christian myths and legends and philosophies and craftsmanship, in studying the history I can't find evidence that alchemy as we know it existed before Christianity.

For instance I'm reading Lindsay's book on alchemy's origins in Greaco Roman Egypt right now. It seems to me that while important texts that are *attributed* to folks like Ostanes and Hermes who *may* have been historical pre-Christian figures, the texts themselves are post-Christ. As such, I'm likely to believe that the attributions are simply part of the pseudoepigraph tradition. I'm not entirely convinced that there was alchemy more than 100 or so years before Zosimos.

From a historical perspective (and please understand that I enjoy the speculation but that's not what I'm looking for here), does anyone have something that gives concrete evidence otherwise?

Hi Chenkel,

"Western" alchemy appears to a direct linear descendent of the mystical sexual alchemies of the East with many of the mystical portions of Goddess practices that the fisrt millenium christian church expended great energy and determination to murder out of existance. An estimated 8 million women and untold millions of male "consorts"(not married in the church so as far as the church was concerned, not married) and children all murdered to wipe out all of these Goddess worshiping folks with alchemical sexual rites, including those ceremonies "in groves in high places" in the Bible, unbroken lines of descent in India to modern times, pre Muslim proto Sufis and all the rest. The millions and millions mudered likely would have ended up as a billion or persons in the modern world had they not been mass murdered. The Muslims tried to murder off those in India, about 300,000,000 persons, and destroyed lots of temples with all that sacred and alchemical sexual art. Under attack from the Musloms and the Christians of course the old alchemies had to go into hiding. Pretending to make gold was much safer and Christian and Muslim rulers LOVED gold above all other things. The laboratory alchemies sure look like they evolved to hide the truth for outright survival reasons. If you happened to accidently poison your neighbors with mysterious gold making vapors and blow things up every now and then, or at least people believed it could happen, all the more reason to left alone out in the middle of nowhere. A lot of eccentric behaviors will be tolerated for the hope of lots of gold.

Andro
01-11-2012, 01:06 AM
The laboratory alchemies sure look like they evolved to hide the truth for outright survival reasons.

It may look like that to the UN-initiated eye.


If you happened to accidentally poison your neighbors with mysterious gold making vapors and blow things up every now and then, or at least people believed it could happen, all the more reason to left alone out in the middle of nowhere.
A lot of eccentric behaviors will be tolerated for the hope of lots of gold.

IMO, it would be wise not to assume that Alchemy ('Lab' Alchemy included) is all about gold making.

It is about opening (by Art) Portals for the 'Hidden Light' (Or Ganuz - אור גנוז) to manifest in the physical world, as 'pure/uncorrupted' as the Design permits, in ways in which UN-aided Nature can not accomplish by itself.

It is The Love of Wisdom (Philosophy), ex-pressed in the Realm of Matter.

The ways and means for such expression are MANY.

On the other hand, if all you have is a hammer - everything else looks like a nail.

But as one's Hermetic Vision develops, it is possible that everything (gradually/eventually) starts to look like everything else :)

To paraphrase the 'Matrix' movie - maybe that's why chicken tastes likes everything and (also) everything tastes like chicken...

There is 'Inner' Alchemy as well (and I do NOT mean Jung-related stuff), following the same principles as 'Lab' Alchemy (as within, so without), but sexual applications (partnered or not) are NOT AT ALL absolute requirements for practicing it.

But regardless, whatever your game is - have fun ;)
--------------------------------------------------------

Chenkel
01-11-2012, 07:13 AM
Solomon: Thank you for reminding me how awesome the Timaeus is. I started listening to an audio version of it at work today for a recap. Still, I’d consider it a major philosophical influence on alchemy and not alchemy itself. Empedocles is another good one.

III: That’s not supported by anything I’ve read on the subject and doesn’t seem to have much to do with dating the emergence of Western alchemy. Is there a source for this information?

Androgynus: Always enjoy your outlook.

So maybe I’ll be more exact about my question: The historical material presented by Holmyard etc. tells us that Western alchemy emerged sometime between the writings of “Bolos-Democritos” (~2cen BCE) and Zosimos (~300 CE). I haven’t been able to iron out in my head whether the historians are sure that “Bolos-Democritos” is the 2nd century BCE dude or a later “Pseudo-Democritos”, and whether his writings are absolutely considered alchemy or a pre-alchemical influence. Does anyone have any insight? We’re talking about a ~500 year period which overlaps the emergence of Christianity, so if folks are certain that Western alchemy came before Christianity I’m guessing that they know something about this. Can someone lend insight to the “Bolos-Democritos” confusion?