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Phoenix
01-04-2009, 06:24 PM
This is a Phoenix-thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7) from the old site (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/forum.htm) created by arcitectus.

I was reading through some material from John Reid's Course on Practical Alchemy and had some questions about astrological / planetary timing in alchemical works. Link for reference: http://www.alchemywebsite.com/reid1-4.html

I was able to read through and follow the calculations that were presented, but I have never seen these types of calculations done in this manner. Does anyone know where this information is originally from?

What I have seen previously is the charts attributed to Paracelsus, to calculate based off the hour of sunrise. See image:

http://i71.servimg.com/u/f71/13/21/11/45/phours10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=3&u=13211145)

How do these two charts/systems compare in calculation of planetary time? Is one more correct or accurate than another?

Thanks
Good thread. I wish I could help you, but this isn't one of my areas of knowledge. Hopefully we have a few other members with this knowledge on hand.
I have some further information on this post. I emailed John Reid directly and this is his reply.


The timing charts are what Frater Albertus used when he taught alchemy. Try finding and reading Men and Cycles of the Universe and The Seven Rays of the QBL by Frater Albertus. Also download a complete set of Alchemical Laboratory Bulletins at http://www.spagyria.com/bulletinannounce.asp

As to the charts you mentioned I have heard people say they were created by Paracelsus but no one has ever given me a reference as to where they come from.

Ultimately what matters is the mind and internal force of the Alchemist. For it is only in our mind that we place a correlation onto what is observed, and that from a very limited perspective of the interrelating actualities of the universe.

I hope this helps and sheds some light on the subject.
I have a couple of questions to those who practice laboratory alchemy.

- Do you use the timing charts that are attributed to Paracelsus or nothing at all?

- Do you feel it makes a difference in the overall outcome the the preparation?

Thanks
Hi,

I really think that objective position of planets in the sky are important, (astrology), but, theses "magical hours" are only man made, they only have a value if you believe in them, and adhere to the egregor that they come from. It's not my case a all.
Why are they man made ? Because the order of the planets are in nature : from Sun to Neptune.

Happy Samhain.

Salazius
Yeah, the whole astrology thing is confusing to me. How do we even know that today is sunday, or saturday,
or whatever? What is the physical proof/evidence that such and such planet is presently ruling the day, let alone
the hour? There is no reason at all to trust our calendars as they have changed through history at whim and will
of men of power (Julian, Gregorian...)

But we can, as I imagine Mr. Reid was pointing at, use our own will/chi to influence alchemical operations.
The seven "chakras" or nervous plexus centers have some reasonable correspondence to the seven ancient
planets, so we can use them along with our magical intent. Something similar may be done with the twelve
astrological signs.

Otherwise, IMO, to be of value astrology must concur with what is occurring now and not as some continuation of a past order.
At this time, the moon is in a specific phase and in a specific house. I mean you should actually be able to observe
it in the sky, or calculate it from PRESENT observations, or at least the immediate past to the present and not
some ancient order that was written down.

If we get into fixed stars, must we consider the speed of light?

So for me, magic, as in will/intent/chi, must be a part of alchemy as much as kabbalah and astrology.

But this is for the deeply involved IMO. Alchemy, as a generic term, still offers many medicines and consciousness
stimulators without knowing astrology and magic.
Then again, there's something to be said for tradition and collective consciousness.
If everyone agrees that it's sunday, and that the days of the week follow this series or progression,
then there's power/intent/magic in that - there's a sunday "thought form".

So old charts or horaries can be useful that way even if they don't correspond to actuality.

Paracelsus (and Crowley, and others) have said that we are stars, and that this star is indicative
of one's imaginative faculty.

This type of magic or intent are part of a work that usually doesn't get much attention and, again,
only involves advanced alchemists: the creation of a homonculus.
Here is some additional background information I recently found concerning planetary hours. It appears that Paracelsus and Henry Cornelius Agrippa were students of Johannes Trithemius. It seems that Trithemius introduced the practice of planetary hours to these two men. The charts of planetary hours are both listed in the works of Trithemius and Agrippa, and it is stated in various resources that Agrippa was a student of Trithemius. In Agrippa's own work, Three Books of Occult Philosophy, there is correspondence between Agrippa and Trithemius. There is also a loose mention of Paracelsus being a student of Trithemius listed in the 1979, The Sixteenth Century Journal article by Noel L. Brann, entitled "Was Paracelsus a Disciple of Trithemius?" I have not found any direct link from Paracelsus to Trithemius as I have between Trithemius and Agrippa.

I have further questions on this search. These are rhetorical at this point and I'm not looking for a direct answer from anyone just getting my thoughts out.

- This situation of egregors and personal intention/will of the alchemist aside. As the moon creates a subtle pull on the Earth to cause the tides, do such planetary energies have a true impact on the alchemical process, even if that impact be a subtle one?

- Did Johannes Trithemius create the practice of planetary hours or was it in turn learned from another source?
This is my final post concerning the subject of planetary timing. To the point of my own satisfaction I have come to a certain understanding of the subject, not to say that experience will not change this understanding. In all actuality I hope that experience does change me and engender new understanding. I have however done other reading and contemplation on the subject and currently this is my stance.

In an ultimate sense the process of planetary timing and planetary geniuses is not needed. I personally do not live in an ultimate objective reality, so to some degree until my understanding is such I feel they are good tools or training wheels.

Iím aware of the influences of subtle things. How the mind can maintain a simple whiff of a thought that in time becomes something even greater as it builds momentum and influence. Experience has shown me that as these influences take subtle shape in the mind, the external aspects are simply there as a focal point and gives the active mind something to do. It also helps in creating a link or bridge from the conscious to subconscious, as one can not communicate directly with the other. Until I do the work and have knowledge of the work within me, I will not truly know to what degree if any these subtle influences have.

3+O(
04-06-2011, 08:23 PM
Yeah, the whole astrology thing is confusing to me. How do we even know that today is sunday, or saturday,
or whatever? What is the physical proof/evidence that such and such planet is presently ruling the day, let alone
the hour? There is no reason at all to trust our calendars as they have changed through history at whim and will
of men of power (Julian, Gregorian...)


The planetary hours date to antiquity (ancient Jewish culture or Babylonia) and are in fact the REASON the 7 week days have the names they do today.

The calculations require no tables or math other than knowing the length of time between sunrise to sunset, there is a simple diagram, the planetary heptagram, which is the basis for the tables:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week-day_names

See these excellent blog posts:
http://khem-caigan.livejournal.com/7291.html
http://khem-caigan.livejournal.com/7480.html

So, you can see the planetary hours system is not something Trithemius came up with, it is an ancient tradition and would have been well-known among medieval astrologers.

3+O(
04-06-2011, 08:51 PM
I notice the image in the wikipedia article has the planets in a non-traditional order for some reason, even though the text is correct, this is how it should look:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=592

Going around the outside, you get the plaents in the Chaldean order, following the lines, you get the days of the week in order.

3+O(
04-07-2011, 01:04 AM
Yeah, the whole astrology thing is confusing to me. How do we even know that today is sunday, or saturday,
or whatever? What is the physical proof/evidence that such and such planet is presently ruling the day, let alone
the hour? There is no reason at all to trust our calendars as they have changed through history at whim and will
of men of power (Julian, Gregorian...)


Frank C. Senn in his book Christian Liturgy: Catholic and Evangelical points to data suggesting evidence of an early continuous use of a seven-day week; referring to the Jews during the Babylonian Captivity in the 6th century BCE,[3] after the destruction of the Temple of Solomon.

The ancient Romans traditionally used the eight-day nundinal cycle, but after the adoption of the Julian calendar, in the time of Augustus, the seven-day week came into use. For a while, the week and the nundinal cycle coexisted, but by the time the week was officially adopted by Constantine in AD 321[4] the nundinal cycle had fallen out of use.

The association of the days of the week with the Sun, the Moon, and the five planets visible to the naked eye dates to the Roman era (2nd century).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven-day_week


Gregory dropped 10 days to bring the calendar back into synchronization with the seasons. Lilius originally proposed that the 10-day correction should be implemented by deleting the Julian leap day on each of its ten occurrences during a period of 40 years, thereby providing for a gradual return of the equinox to 21 March. However, Clavius's opinion was that the correction should take place in one move, and it was this advice which prevailed with Gregory. Accordingly, when the new calendar was put in use, the error accumulated in the 13 centuries since the Council of Nicaea was corrected by a deletion of ten days. The last day of the Julian calendar was Thursday, 4 October 1582 and this was followed by the first day of the Gregorian calendar, Friday, 15 October 1582 (the cycle of weekdays was not affected).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

So the seven-day week has been perpetually ongoing since at least ~2000 years.

Andro
04-07-2011, 06:06 AM
The whole astrology thing is confusing to me.
How do we even know that today is sunday, or saturday, or whatever?
What is the physical proof/evidence that such and such planet is presently ruling the day, let alone the hour?

Different calendars do not affect Astrology in the very least.

How many days we're counting or how we measure time, does not affect the movement/placement of the celestial bodies in relation to Earth and to each other.

The micro and macro cycles are not ruled or determined by how we name, measure or define them.

What day is ruled by what planet is NOT a constant, but can be determined by casting a horoscope at sunset to determine the Night's ruling planet and/or at sunrise to determine the Day's ruling planet.

Subsequently, a day can have it's micro ruler according to it's horoscope (the planet ruling the Rising Sing/First House), and also greater (macro) rulers according to the larger cycles.

Fixed daily planetary rulerships are human fabrications.

Hourly rulerships are a little different, but that's already more than I wish to go into right now...
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Nature came first. We merely change the 'subtitles' every once in a while.