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Alchemical
11-26-2011, 12:54 PM
I saw a trailer for a film called 11-11-11

11-11-11 The Movie U.S. Theatrical Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV_Yf-6NqXY)

"The Bible warns about Divination, interpreting random acts as messages from God"

"If something is trying to get your attention... it's not holy."

I had never thought about what the Bible might say about this, so I started looking into the Bible's references to Divination and I found it to be true. The Bible heavily condemns Divination of any form.

http://www.bible-topics.com/Divination.html

http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-newagespiritualwarfare/astrologyoccultmediumsdivinationsorcery.php

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/dangersofdivination.html

Astrology, Meditation, Theurgy are all forms of Divination; To connect with the divine. What do Christian Alchemists have to say about this? I know there are a few here. I would like to hear your ideas.

MarkostheGnostic
11-26-2011, 06:48 PM
There is a difference between Thaumaturgy and Theurgy, to use one set of definitions. Thaumaturgy engages chthonic, earthbound spirits, and is usually identified with low magick or sorcery. Theurgy is divine magick, and the Tenach and NT are full of it. The magick granted Moses, when his staff-serpent eats up the staff-serpents of Pharoah's magicians is one example (Exodus 7:10). The staff of Moses comes under the guidance of Divinity, he misuses it, and is punished. (Numbers 20:8-12). As soon as Moses' ego enters into the Divine Will, he is God-smacked for it. This is a profanation of the Theurgy. meanwhile, Thaumaturgy - necromancy and the other 'mancies,' of which a witch was often employed (1Samuel 28:20-25). Saul lost the battle, and his life. Better for him not to have heard the prognostication of the witch of Endor, which must have created a self-fulfilling prophesy.

In the New Testament, Jesus effects cures of diseases, and is said to transmute water to wine, which frankly, I see in a mythic context and one that anticipates the eventual ritual of using wine as the Blood of Christ. I question (1) the historicity of Jesus, (2) the misinterpretation of the Hebrew title "Son of God," which referred to the Hebrew divine right of kings, not a unique specie of Being, (3) the Greek Incarnational theology which is purely Greek mythology of demigods, and why Jews rejected that assertion, (4) the literal interpretation of Jewish midrash. To this end, I refer you to Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes, by John Shelby Spong (whom I've met and dialogued with on 3 occasions).

Morton Smith (howsoever discredited for a hoax he tried to perpetrate about a letter by Clement of Alexandria on supposed sexual initiation by Jesus), wrote Jesus the Magician. The Talmud does recognize Jesus (Y'shua), but defames him as a mamser (bastard child), [which is completely tenable, given (1) the circumstances of an occupied land, and (2) that the doctrine of virgin birth is based on Matthew's mistranslation of Isaiah 9:6-7, in which matthew used the Greek Septuigint instead of the original Hebrew, which would have read "almah,' maiden, young woman, NOT ''berthollah,'' or virgin. Unfortunately, Greek only had one word for both - 'parthenos' (as in the Parthenon, temple of the virgin goddess Athena)]. But I digress, sorry. Smith also notes that, assuming his historicity, the Talmud considers Jesus to be a magician, but because he is not recognized as a prophet, the valuation is a negative one.

Of course, there are other ways of defining these things. For Carlos Casteneda (howsoever fictional), sorcery was part of being a "Man of Knowledge" (Gnostic means 'One who Knows'). Former Ayahuascero, Pablo Amaringo, whom I was once introduced to via a translator, likewise characterized sorcery as positive, witchcraft as negative and malicious. You will never find support for esoteric understandings and practices among exoteric Christians. They regard the wrappings for the contents of biblical writ, interpret literally (which is actually a heresy, since Paul' writings which are the oldest documents, NEVER ONCE refer to the 'resurrection body' as anything but the "spiritual man." For Paul, who wrote before the PR gospel narratives, resurrection is a spiritual event, not a George A. Romero scenario of a resusitated corpse! Neither did corpses unearth themselves at the crucifixion of Jesus (Matthew 27:52-53).Now, if one doesn't understand the mind-set of Jewish midrash - colorful stories intended to make a verbal illustration of a spiritual truth - and one takes the story literally - with all the obvious contradicting accounts - one will never grow up spiritually IMO. But each one of us has to arrive at our own conclusions. Irrational is not trans-rational. reason and faith can be reconciled, and Gnosis weighs heavily in my own interpretation.

Hermetic philosophy draws on Western scriptural idioms, but clearly, its intellectual bent is a departure from the devotional (emotional) bent of biblical faith. In India, the various yogas address the various typologies of different people. Karma Yoga addresses the primarily Sensate individual, Bhakti Yoga addresses the primarily Feeling individual, Jnani Yoga addresses the primarily Thinking individual. Intuitive types may include (according to the MBTI) the above qualities. Christianity makes little room for it's Intuitive Thinkers, and often declared mystics like Meister Eckhart heretics. Intuitive Feelers were often cloistered, and tolerated better, but my point is that any intellectual-intuitive methodology that is open to multiple levels (astrological, planetary, magickal correspondences, etc.) will do no better today among the literal, Preconventional Morality (Kohlberg), anti-intellectual 'Christian' multitudes today, than they did in the past. It is (without intending to sound arrogant) as if free-thinking is inimical to faith. There is a huge sense that people REFUSE to grow up spiritually, and using scriptures to support their position, they maintain that it is a 'childlike' stance instead of the childish stance that it actually is, where people want a Big Daddy, an 'Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky,' instead of Realizing their own co-creative capacities with God.

As the Wiccans say, in closing, "AN HARM YE NONE."

Alchemical
11-26-2011, 07:42 PM
Thank you MarkostheGnostic very much for your reply. Very informative, you have given me a lot to work with.

"Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes" caught my eye once before, but now I will make sure I get a copy.

I watched the trailer for this film with my girlfriend and she questioned me about my spiritual study. I get such a hard time from her because of my Alchemy/Occult study, and have a hard time trying to get through to her what I am doing. I tell her simply I'm a man of God, but still she thinks I am walking the wrong path and that it's all evil.

Seth-Ra
11-26-2011, 08:58 PM
Ive dealt with this before also, as i have a brother who fancies himself a "Bible scholar", so we clash as he condemns my "practicing the Dark Arts of the Egyptians." lol :cool:

What ive found though, is that the thing the Bible condemns is false and/or deceptive magick, and of course, that which is granted from dark beings. For instance, 1st Samuel 15:23 states that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft (or divination - etc, depending on translation of choice), so the question becomes: rebellion from what? Well, obviously rebellion from God - so what is God? God is Truth - and Truth is what IS. So, for instance, would-be soothsayers that are quick to take advantage of the pain of others, feed them lies and take their money, would be total blasphemy and utter deception = sin. (Hence why a prophet who prophesied incorrectly, even once, was to be killed - Truth suffers no lie.)

Furthermore, the Urim and Thummim are considered divination stones ordained and used by the High Priests of Israel. Just as Moses' staff was blessed and backed with Truth to overcomes the lesser or dark magicks, so too were these stones.

Jesus also talks about, in the end of Revelation, those who will be on the outside of the city - the dogs, and sorcerers, and all those who practice such falsehoods - its implying they are all liars, swindlers and cheats, just like their spiritual father - a certain serpent who was cast down. (not to be confused with our winged serpent - the breath of Life of Truth that bore into being our living creation).

While the enemy is considered the "son of the dawn" and linked with the morning star - all very symbolic of certain fires, Jesus also at the end of Revelation says that He is the bright and Morning Star (a different grade of Fire, and making further symbolism of how the Lie can parallel Truth in existence, but not be IT itself, subtle trickery and wise discernment balance each other out). - how could He be against the Secret Wisdom of Nature, when He made it (being God), and He references it for those who have Eyes to see and Ears to hear? ;)

All True Art is designed at better understanding and walking with Him - the All, the One, in you, and all around you, acting as His servant and Son/Daughter. The Lie, which is condemned, has elements of Truth in them, in order to give them substance of being - but if one can see the Golden Thread that runs through All - the One is seen, and the rest falls away as nothing, while the One becomes your All-thing-No-thing. :)


Hope that all made sense, if not - what can i say, ima Mad-Hatter. :D




~Seth-Ra

MarkostheGnostic
11-26-2011, 10:25 PM
"The Bible warns about Divination, interpreting random acts as messages from God"

Randomness is a term that applies to chance, to probability. Probably one of the prohibitions of certain Christian denominations about gambling, has to do with mathematical probability, AKA 'luck,' as an opposing model of God. Many materialists seem to invest both aeons of time, and probability with the source of evolution, if not creation itself. This leaves God out of the equation, however, many materialist don't seem to get that laws of probability, as well as laws of physics, did not exist before the material universe, and the universe is estimated to have taken at least 300,000 earth-years to cool sufficiently after the Big Bang, before energies polarized from waves into particles - not even atoms quite yet. So, the further Mystery of 10 to the -43rd second ago - the Cause for the Singularity of the Big Bang also leaves materialists behind. It has always seemed to me to be, to use the title of a book by PK Dick - a 'Divine Invasion,' or the Creation of Form, from Force (to use ancient categories). Unless one can imagine being a mathematical point, one cannot imagine non-existence, non-manifestation as space-time. Most people just imagine a pitch black 'plane' because there can be no depth-dimension without space-time. The mind offers this default image for non-existence, and conversely, Light, like looking at the Sun, as an image of divinity. These are archetypal polarities. From blinding Light, we tend to further differentiate into 'warmth' (both physical and emotional) and 'burning heat,' from which the further elaborations of Heaven and Hell emerge. At any rate, nothing is random, spiritually speaking, only apparently so. Nothing less than Omniscience can connect ALL the dots.

Another prohibition against gambling (which recognizes whatever cultural-historical variants of 'Lady-Luck'), is the one incident of "throwing bones," or, as we would say, 'rolling dice" by Roman centurians at the foot of the crucifixion, while they gamble for Jesus' tunic ('The Robe'). This story could be interpreted on no less than 4 levels according to Jewish exegesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis) Beyond the cold, callousness of ruthless soldiers of the Roman Empire, - the most literal level, one can look at the profanation of the sacred, the manifestation of random acts at the epicenter of Western religious meaning (dismemberment, suspension between Good & Evil brigand, and between Heaven & Earth [often depicted with Sun & Moon in medieval art, or with an eclipse of the Sun, indicating Coincidentia Oppositorum]). One can also compare the model of 'chance' as a metaphysic with grace, in that nothing is random under grace ("Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered." - Matthew 10:29-30).

As in alchemy, the operator is part of the outcome. Enjoin a psychotic, or some morally deranged witch in your life-process and you are not going to have a positive outcome. But reading signs, as in Gematria (numerology), or astrology (as in the Magi who are said to seek the baby Jesus), or prophesy (if it derives from higher intelligences), are all legitimate practices in biblical writ, when proscribed by certain conditions of ritual purity. As far as this discussion goes, "By their fruits you will know them," applies to good and evil alike.

Albion
11-27-2011, 12:21 PM
...I get such a hard time from her because of my Alchemy/Occult study, and have a hard time trying to get through to her what I am doing. I tell her simply I'm a man of God, but still she thinks I am walking the wrong path and that it's all evil.

Newton's Dark secrets*:

http://www.amazon.com/NOVA-Newtons-Secrets-Scott-Handy/dp/B000BKDNY4/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1322395582&sr=1-2

"He was a 17th century Einstein, who reduced nature’s chaos to a single set of laws and revolutionized the thinking and outlook of his age. But in the midst of his astonishing breakthroughs in physics, optics, and calculus, Isaac Newton was also searching out hidden meanings in the Bible and pursuing the covert art of alchemy, or the changing of base metals into gold.

With vivid docudrama scenes starring Scott Handy (Henry VIII) as Newton, NOVA recreates the unique climate of late 17th-century England, where a newfound fascination with science and mathematics coexisted with extreme views on religious doctrine. Unknown to most, Newton shared both obsessions."

http://www.livephysics.com/shop/images/shop/B000BKDNY4.jpg

Although the tone of the film initially seemed to be setting up the audience to percieve Newton as being weird [celibacy is weird to the majority who don't understand it] I was pleasantly surprised at how well the film developed as it succeeeded in encapsulating his great & varied contributions to Science - along with the parallel track of his abiding interest in Alchemy. The choice of title is perhaps unfortunate, but it also refers to his private, unpublished arguments against the traditional trinitarian formulations [and perhaps other issues I don't recall at the moment].

.....http://newsinfo.iu.edu/pub/libs/images/usr/1183.jpg
A purple alloy of copper and antimony that Newton -- following his source "Eirenaeus Philalethes" (the American alchemist George Starkey) -- called "the net."

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/2617.html
______________________________

* Your local library (or greater county library system) might carry it.

Alchemical
11-27-2011, 06:11 PM
Thank you to everyone who replied, it has given me a lot to think about and work with.

Also, great documentary about Newton. I just watched it on YouTube. Thanks for bring it to my attention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmhPfGo3fE

Does anyone know if there are books available of Newton's work on Alchemy?

MarkostheGnostic
11-27-2011, 06:15 PM
Thanks Albion! I just sent the link off to a childhood friend who is a geophysicist. I recently obtained White's Isaac Newton: The Last Sorcerer, and Dobbs' The Alchemical Foundations of Isaac Newton. I'm warming up to read these with Ross Mack's Alchemical Essays (which is what I spent much of yesterday reading). Do I perceive the star-shaped Regulus pattern on the above pic that Newton found so important?

Albion
11-28-2011, 12:19 AM
Thanks Albion! I just sent the link off to a childhood friend who is a geophysicist. I recently obtained White's Isaac Newton: The Last Sorcerer, and Dobbs' The Alchemical Foundations of Isaac Newton. I'm warming up to read these with Ross Mack's Alchemical Essays (which is what I spent much of yesterday reading). Do I perceive the star-shaped Regulus pattern on the above pic that Newton found so important?

:cool: I imagine your geophysicist friend would like it.

Sounds like good reading. Although, at my level of understanding, it may not mean much, I certainly enjoyed "Alchemical Essays" and felt the author spoke rather openly, clearly, and with a measure of authority. Perhaps not as satisfying for the recipe-hunter as it would be for the principal-gatherer but, nevertheless, I feel most anyone would walk away from it having learned something of value [although I don't think I'd do very well if you quizzed me on the material].

It has been about four months since I saw that video on Sir Isaac Newton, but I'm fairly certain that, yes, they did specifically point out the star-shaped Regulus pattern.

MarkostheGnostic
11-28-2011, 11:49 AM
Rēgulus is Latin for 'prince' or 'little king'. The Greek variant Basiliscus is also used. It is known as Qalb al-Asad, from the Arabic قلب الأسد, meaning 'the heart of the lion'. This phrase is sometimes approximated as Kabelaced and translates into Latin as Cor Leōnis. It is known in Chinese as 轩辕十四, the Fourteenth Star of Xuanyuan, the Yellow Emperor. In Hindu astronomy, Regulus corresponds to the Nakshatra Magha.
Persian astrologers around 3000 BC knew Regulus as Venant, one of the four 'royal stars'.[citation needed] It was one of the fifteen Behenian stars known to medieval astrologers, associated with granite, mugwort, and the kabbalistic symbol [untranslatable]
In MUL.APIN, Regulus listed as LUGAL, meaning "the star which stands in the breast of the Lion:the King." - Wikipedia

Ghislain
11-28-2011, 08:21 PM
translates into Latin as Cor Leōnis

or Corleone, The Godfather

just a thought :)

Ghislain

Seth-Ra
11-28-2011, 08:39 PM
or Corleone, The Godfather

just a thought :)

Ghislain

Ghislain... that... is... EPIC. :D very nice spin to it.

"The Lion... he will make us an offer we can't refuse." :cool:

(almost sounds like the OT God - the Father. ;) )




~Seth-Ra