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peethagoras
12-10-2011, 06:45 PM
Hi, new member today. Please excuse me with my writing.

I hope this is how we get to talk on this forum, because I have not tried it before. I tried it earlier but the message said timed out try again, so instead I use your email numbers, and I am now here!!!. And I am glad too be here.


OK about John Dee. I very keen on all things to do with him, and have much to discuss with anyone who has a bit of sprea time.

Spent many years careful looks at Dee's work, and reached my conclusion:- John Dee he was much more clever than he has been given any credit for. I think he was a misunderstood master genius. That most of his readers find him to be obscure is not at all surprising, not to myself at any rate.

The heading up there did not aski if the Dee's MONAD has been cracked. I don't for a second believe it has anything to do with sun moon etcetera., But don't attack me without being fair about it. Then you can really attack like hellsbells.

Now that MONAD is how John Dee says it, and it must have some meaning for him. But when I read he says lvner sol element ignis, and truly the top one looks just like a real moon, only not fully. But the rest? Ok, there is a round sun, but the rest of it? No way Hoesay. Dee is having us all on, He is having a good laugh in his secret grave. Why? I will tell you some time, but I am a bit like scared you will say I am telling lies.

I am not though. It was Dee who was doing all the lies. An now he laughs!!!!

I think John Dee most certainly liked fish: red hearings*. He got a great kick out of his texts - its as if he was playing a game with his best closest friends - snakes and ladders. They all wanted immortality via print. Homer, Socrates Julius Caesar Pythagoras, Euclid and many more, all achieved a sort of immortality, at least the nearest we humans can achieve.

* I have a faxsimile of a crappy old book I got from a house by Chester in the county of Chesire, in England, (its in very poor condition) it has etchings of animals and cherubs, and strange for me to say it, 3 red fish, I think caught by a little boy who, by the look on his little face, has done some bad thing. Imagine a little boy toddler when he pulled his mama's goldfish from out of the water in a glass bowl. That sort of look.
I do a smily :-< but that is no where like the face on the cover. Maybe I send a Jpg to here?

I laughed when I read Solomon's invisible fish in the other threads! Very funny mate! Invisible fish hA ha!

Anyway, back to my book, time after time I try to read the title of the thing, but alas no luck. I think some idiot must have taken it to sea in a idiot rowing boat. because its stained the way idiots salt water stains.

It holds in it a great amount of blurb on grammar (some in mine own tongue too) with a weird blending of arithmetic and geometry. These auncient Englysh bookes! Ho Ho.Not making no racy commengts, sorry if they were seen like it.

I saw Euclid Elements the one with John Dee writing in it, and you are not going to believe this part, straight away on the front, I saw the little boy again!!!!!! Yes. before yo ask I was not drunk or whatever. He is on the very top under kind of arch way, and old father time is there too. I do not know who the others are meant to be, but a man has nothing on him.

If anyone can know it all (and about my old book) I would be a very happy individual,

Enough being said now, will wait for a possible feedback.


Phew that took me loads of time to do it all! Please excuse it. my tongue is not as good as English etceteras, and it make many an errors, but I'm learning fastl by each day I try to get there even more.

So thanks to all. And sorry if I bored any one silly.

III
12-13-2011, 03:38 AM
Hi Peethagoras,

While I've read some John Dee I can't say that I really know him or his books. My only John Dee moment was on New years eve, or maybe morning, about 2am. About 8 of us were in the hot-tub ending our metaphysical new years eve party and I quoted John Dee on something I don't remember anu more and somebody else said that I had the quote wrong. We made a bet and somebody went in the house and looked it up. I lost the bet. I had to run nude around the Mormon chapel next door being chased by everybody else and showered with silly string all the way. Since nobody else got dressed for it either it would have been quite a sight if anybody were around. It was a silly conclusion to a fun evening.

peethagoras
12-13-2011, 08:29 PM
More Mon!

thats what a kiltless gay Scot might have said.

thnks for reply

solomon levi
12-13-2011, 09:54 PM
I am becoming more interested in Dee's work. Thanks for bringing it to my attention,
not for the first time, but i finally actually read it.

I understand quite a bit of this. It is not lies IMO. Simply well concealed truth, as is the
custom of alchemists. Of great interest is the mention of Lemnian earth - something
which has been a passion of mine. I'll post something on this later. It's all falling 2gether.
Again. :)

III
12-14-2011, 05:12 AM
More Mon!

thats what a kiltless gay Scot might have said.

thnks for reply

Hi Peethagoras,
You have reminded me of the subject of the quote. It was about John Dee's joy in being nude (kitless).

peethagoras
12-14-2011, 11:01 PM
hi solomon levi

Dee has the Monas symbol in the centre of the title page of his Monas Hieroglyphica, but the planet signs he associates with each of the four parts is given in Therorum X.

See attached image. Notice that there are four symbols in his Monas. The reason for that particular number is because Dee both begins with the 4th abc letter, and it sounds like the name of the letter.

If four represents Dee, what then, stands for Iohn? or Iohannes?

I claim that what we read in all of his materials was not to inform the face-subject matter, but to carry a sub text . The keys being the abc and arithmetic. I think all the stories about Dee and Kelly were engineered to be red herrings and at the same time to remain in the public memory.

Who's heard of Nevilles de Lilkers these days? But you can be reasonably certain someone will recall reading or hearing about John Dee and Elizabeth I.

Its all down to memory. Dee and some of his friends thought they had hit on the door to imortallity, but setting the whole thing up took jucho casho and great power. Enter Good queene Besse.

Use your eyes,
Read the lies.

regards

solomon levi
12-15-2011, 10:16 PM
Hi Peethagoras.

Yes, but there are four elements that need revolving as well to generate the Philosophical Mercury.
Iohannes means "fish", which is the symbol of Our Mercury:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXk486qDN8Ik-bAU25QXkFQPxJYMu3xj432hTamZFhkyjJ_M6Q

Iohannes the Baptist and Iesous were also represented by fish, the vesica pisces:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdrVlGFvDnjJ7-d5rpfioOS-uMggvOSvEGGmXLfqwXzS9EJY_6

The eyes may deceive
and cause one to grieve
but my heart doth conceive
what thine eyes canst believe
:)

peethagoras
12-16-2011, 10:10 PM
thanks solomon levi

John the fish? any relation to poor John in Romeo and Juliet? Methinks I smell an hooke bayted with wit.

Where did you get that info?

By the way. Dee's Monas: seen the lies yet?

alchemicalturtoise
12-18-2011, 07:56 AM
I am new both to the forum and to the field, so i apologize in advance if my posts are irrelevant to the subject.
I've read Gustav Meyrink's "Angel at the Western Window" and that (fictional) acquaintance is more or less all i know about the genius alchemist/philosopher... i'd certainly want to learn more and shall follow this thread with great interest - thank you for starting it, Peethagoras.

Ouroboros
06-21-2012, 11:12 AM
i just ran on john dee....and somehow he just pops up often till that first time. i didn't read any of his works, here in serbia is very hard to find any good book abut alchemy....and my english isn't good enough to understand whole book. one thing that fascinated me about dee is his mirror. obsidian black mirror which helped him to comunicate with angles on enochian language through his student sir edward kelly.
do you know anything about this kind of mirror?
http://www.historum.com/members/kuon-albums-john+dee,+natural+philosopher+%26amp%3B+magus-picture377-obsidian-mirror-dee-reputed-aztec-origin-used-scrying-communication-angelic-beings-his-shew-stone.jpg

Ouroboros
06-21-2012, 11:13 AM
and very interesting information about fish, thank you :)

MarkostheGnostic
06-21-2012, 11:03 PM
I saved your excellent picture! My wife's daughter, at the time in high school, took this the only time I'd been to England. Can I assume your pic is also from the British Museum?
Obsidian is for skrying. Even black spray-painted surfaces have been used in modern times for the purpose. The practice is best performed by people with clairvoyance, as Dee's associate Edward Kelly was supposed to be. Kelly is best known for his use of a crystal from which he recited the Enochian alphabet - backwards - in a very elaborate process. The obsidian stone doesn't reveal anything but rather serves as a means for the mind turning inward, as there is nothing to 'see' outwardly. The crystal is set into a Watchtower, as Francis Barrett described it, and which was copied by Alex and Maxine Sanders (although Barrett apparently plagerized the hell out of Cornelius Agrippa's earlier work Three Books of Occult Philosophy. This pic is from Google, not responsible for the poor quality. (I built one of these myself, only I used a plate of brass instead of a plate of gold to surround the crystal. My crystal is smaller, but I was only doing a demonstration of Wiccan practices, not practicing myself).

http://i46.tinypic.com/24eqqv6.jpg


http://i48.tinypic.com/r9mxit.jpg

Krisztian
06-23-2012, 01:03 AM
I claim that what we read in all of his materials was not to inform the face-subject matter, but to carry a sub text . The keys being the abc and arithmetic. I think all the stories about Dee and Kelly were engineered to be red herrings and at the same time to remain in the public memory. Its all down to memory. Dee and some of his friends thought they had hit on the door to imortallity, but setting the whole thing up took jucho casho and great power.

We do know from historical records that, at one point, Dee possessed the red stone. (An unidentified person supposedly gave him.) Unfortunately or maybe it was his fortune, that by the time he realized what he had, the stone was all used up. I have always maintained that he had a 'psychic encounter' with the Philosopher's Stone. (As the real stone, I mean the "Stone of the Wise" has a psychic energy about it that develops a relationship with the keeper of the stone). So, he probably would be one who could create something from that encounter, and create an entire mythology, system of symbols, etc.

MarkostheGnostic
06-23-2012, 06:16 PM
What I have, "historically," is a book entitled The Alchemical writings of Edward Kelly by A.E. Waite. The first part is an introduction, the latter part, a book ostensibly by Edward Kelly, and dedicated to Rudolf II, King of Hungary and Bohemia, who apparently was open to the spurious pursuits of alchemists (hence the Old Prague 'alchemist's row.' As we know, Dee died in poverty, his magnificent and unrivaled library looted, and house violated. (When I stayed at a relative's house outside of London, some 13 years ago, I marveled at a street named Mortlake Ct., around the corner, as Dee was on my mind, and his home was in Mortlake). At any rate, Kelly died of injuries sustained, falling from a high wall during a jailbreak. He had already lost his ears according to some reports, for other legal violations.

In a small illustration that has always fascinated me, and which I have a framed copy of, are two men in an old English cemetary, standing within a magick circle, facing what appears to be an exhumed corpse in bed clothes. The practice was necromancy - inducing the corpse to reveal where a fortune had been buried. One text says that these are Dee and Paul Talbot (an AKA for Kelly, the criminal). Waite's text says that they are Kelly and Paul Waring, with whom Kelly took up with after Dee had realized the extent to which he had been deceived by Kelly. Kelly even convinced Dee and their wives to practice wife-swapping, allegedly at the behest of the Angel Uriel, with whom Kelly was supposed to be in communication with! Kelly was a true con-man, a sociopath. Dee was too much of an enthusiastic egghead, and overlooked the inconsistencies of Kelly's character.

Without intending to offend anyone at this forum, I find the question of a historically physical substance of The Philosopher's Stone (Red or White versions), to be a parallel myth to the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. I believe that both The Stone and Jesus, are in fact, personal and impersonal symbols for the same salvific reality. The Stone, of which Christ has been compared in the Bible (Psalm 118:22, Acts 4:11), as a midrash, has its parallel in The Golden Fleece of classic Greek legend (Jason and the Argonauts). Like The Fleece, The Stone would be the symbolic fulfillment of all of one's earthly desires. The Stone, yielding both longevity and wealth, fulfills the same desires. Emphasis is on the earthly. Kelly was most interested in sex and (monetary) power - earthly concerns, not transcendental ones. There are branches of Christianity today that teach that 'God wants you to be rich,' and that wealth is a sign of spiritual favor from God. This concept cuts right into the pre-Christian Greek notions in classical polytheism, with its favors and punishments from the gods/goddesses.

If Jung, and post-Jungian thinkers read it correctly, The Stone, like the Diamond Body, the Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart, in Vajrayana Buddhism, or the Cubic Inch of Jade in some Taoist literature, or the Pearl of Great Price in biblical and gnostic writings - are all phenomenologically identical references to a transcendental reality, which makes earthly desires for immortality and wealth completely moot. Aldous Huxley wrote something which said that precious stones are precious because they are objects in the external world (along with lesser baubles) which most nearly resemble the things that people see in the visionary world. I myself have seen ordinary roadside gravel suffused with sapphire light on high dose acid trips, for example. These visionary states are sometimes accompanied by a sense of Wholeness (Holiness) that outstrip the most impressive physical wealth. I know that my values toward social status based on jewels, clothes, cars, or homes have been radically altered by transcendental states of mind. I have unintentionally offended individuals, who chalked my complimentary, yet obviously disinterested pleasantries about their new luxury car, as mere envy! I may look longer at a chrome yellow Lambourghini passing me by, but I cannot discern envy, just visual novelty, for example.

I think that the condition of Buddha's Wisdom of Equanimity, is just one facet of a multifaceted 'Stone' that spiritual enlightenment means. In Vajrayana, there is the Cintamani - the Wish-Fulfilling Stone, in Vajrayana Buddhism, which is another parallel with the Diamond Body. There, a magickal, physical stone is never entertained. It seems we Westerners have difficulty with discriminating the tangible from the intangible, and insist that the greater value must be with the tangible.

Krisztian
06-23-2012, 08:44 PM
What I have, "historically," is a book entitled The Alchemical writings of Edward Kelly by A.E. Waite. The first part is an introduction, the latter part, a book ostensibly by Edward Kelly, and dedicated to Rudolf II, King of Hungary and Bohemia, who apparently was open to the spurious pursuits of alchemists (hence the Old Prague 'alchemist's row.' As we know, Dee died in poverty, his magnificent and unrivaled library looted, and house violated. (When I stayed at a relative's house outside of London, some 13 years ago, I marveled at a street named Mortlake Ct., around the corner, as Dee was on my mind, and his home was in Mortlake). At any rate, Kelly died of injuries sustained, falling from a high wall during a jailbreak. He had already lost his ears according to some reports, for other legal violations.

In a small illustration that has always fascinated me, and which I have a framed copy of, are two men in an old English cemetary, standing within a magick circle, facing what appears to be an exhumed corpse in bed clothes. The practice was necromancy - inducing the corpse to reveal where a fortune had been buried. One text says that these are Dee and Paul Talbot (an AKA for Kelly, the criminal). Waite's text says that they are Kelly and Paul Waring, with whom Kelly took up with after Dee had realized the extent to which he had been deceived by Kelly. Kelly even convinced Dee and their wives to practice wife-swapping, allegedly at the behest of the Angel Uriel, with whom Kelly was supposed to be in communication with! Kelly was a true con-man, a sociopath. Dee was too much of an enthusiastic egghead, and overlooked the inconsistencies of Kelly's character.

Without intending to offend anyone at this forum, I find the question of a historically physical substance of The Philosopher's Stone (Red or White versions), to be a parallel myth to the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth. I believe that both The Stone and Jesus, are in fact, personal and impersonal symbols for the same salvific reality. The Stone, of which Christ has been compared in the Bible (Psalm 118:22, Acts 4:11), as a midrash, has its parallel in The Golden Fleece of classic Greek legend (Jason and the Argonauts). Like The Fleece, The Stone would be the symbolic fulfillment of all of one's earthly desires. The Stone, yielding both longevity and wealth, fulfills the same desires. Emphasis is on the earthly. Kelly was most interested in sex and (monetary) power - earthly concerns, not transcendental ones. There are branches of Christianity today that teach that 'God wants you to be rich,' and that wealth is a sign of spiritual favor from God. This concept cuts right into the pre-Christian Greek notions in classical polytheism, with its favors and punishments from the gods/goddesses.

If Jung, and post-Jungian thinkers read it correctly, The Stone, like the Diamond Body, the Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart, in Vajrayana Buddhism, or the Cubic Inch of Jade in some Taoist literature, or the Pearl of Great Price in biblical and gnostic writings - are all phenomenologically identical references to a transcendental reality, which makes earthly desires for immortality and wealth completely moot. Aldous Huxley wrote something which said that precious stones are precious because they are objects in the external world (along with lesser baubles) which most nearly resemble the things that people see in the visionary world. I myself have seen ordinary roadside gravel suffused with sapphire light on high dose acid trips, for example. These visionary states are sometimes accompanied by a sense of Wholeness (Holiness) that outstrip the most impressive physical wealth. I know that my values toward social status based on jewels, clothes, cars, or homes have been radically altered by transcendental states of mind. I have unintentionally offended individuals, who chalked my complimentary, yet obviously disinterested pleasantries about their new luxury car, as mere envy! I may look longer at a chrome yellow Lambourghini passing me by, but I cannot discern envy, just visual novelty, for example.

I think that the condition of Buddha's Wisdom of Equanimity, is just one facet of a multifaceted 'Stone' that spiritual enlightenment means. In Vajrayana, there is the Cintamani - the Wish-Fulfilling Stone, in Vajrayana Buddhism, which is another parallel with the Diamond Body. There, a magickal, physical stone is never entertained. It seems we Westerners have difficulty with discriminating the tangible from the intangible, and insist that the greater value must be with the tangible.

In alchemy, philosophical entertainment is left behind. Academic philosophers are 'puffers' in the ancient art of al-kemi, that's not what a philosopher is. It's not book-learning, memorizing, and quoting. As French alchemist Jean Dubuis says: "Alchemy is an initiative system in which you have no delusions. It is the only initiatic path where there is an objective control in the laboratory. So if your experiment shows you've gone beyond the ordinary material laws of the universe, it shows that you're an alchemist that has had an interior awakening, and that corresponds to the rule which says, 'You will transmute nothing if you have not transmuted yourself first".

And the highest spiritual achievement is the manifestation of the Philosopher's Stone. The stone itself doesn't mean anything, you may even give it away; but being able to make it shows where you truly are in your spiritual development. No delusions with this approach. That's, one of many reasons, why I follow alchemy.

When people speak of spirituality, oftentimes is full of grandiose comments, mind-chatter, quoting this and that concept, etc.; in alchemy all that is left behind. Either you can make the physical elixir, tincture, etc., or it shows you have more to learn. It's beautiful and simple!

If you done laboratory work, what I said here is no thing new.

MarkostheGnostic
06-23-2012, 10:59 PM
I grok what you are saying, and I understand that performing laboratory work, the process, is a methodology can be transformative of the operator. Yes, I agree that unexpected results (not explosions!) that do not seem to be explicable by purely physical chemistry, may well indicate a paranormal phenomenon. This may still be relegated to what Indian Yoga calls 'siddhis,' - psychic or parapsychological phenomena. These are sought by 'fakirs,' but not yogis. Zen practitioners acknowledge that such phenomena exist, and call them Makyo - illusion - because as fascinating as they may be when compared to ordinary cause-effect phenomena, these things entrap us in fascination, which can then seduce us into their production, for their own sake. That would strengthen our attachments to worldly desires.

The production of a physical Stone, replete with all of its mythic attributes (not spagyric medicines which, like homeopathic preparations, may well have an effect upon more subtle aspects of our being, as in the 'Kolisko Effect' http://www.answers.com/topic/kolisko-effect), may represent a unattainable horizon - a symbol of transcendence of physical limitations as explained by physics and chemistry. It may inspire the 'faith which moves mountains,' the transmutation of water into wine, or the multiplication of five loaves and two fish into sufficient food to feed multitudes. When I was back there in seminary school, I tried to express the importance of LSD to a Hindu-born professor of New Testament studies. He told me that he believed metaphor to be more powerful. That was 35 years ago, and I never forgot that. I can better appreciate that statement today. Metaphor, midrash, myth, metaphysics - all use of the written word, the Logos incarnate on parchment, paper, or tablet.

Ought I to take an alchemical Homunculus at face value, for example, as an actual tiny being that takes form in a flask, or would I be more on point if I understood it as the Taoists refer to the "Immortal Foetus," which is an 'internal vehicle' - an idiom for a 'Corpus Incorruptibilis,' or a 'subtle body' that can contain consciousness apart from the physical body, for transference to a yet higher type of being? I am no stranger to laboratory work. I was doing laboratory experiments in a home lab from the time I was 10. Shifting to a ritual, magickal mind-set is also not alien to me, nor is combining the lab with the ritual mentality. But, obscuring a more penetrating analysis of what individuals are thinking, anticipating, hoping, expecting is critical, otherwise we can devise our own delusions or even share our delusions with others.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2mo5nhh.jpg

Krisztian
06-24-2012, 06:48 AM
I grok what you are saying, and I understand that performing laboratory work, the process, is a methodology can be transformative of the operator. Yes, I agree that unexpected results (not explosions!) that do not seem to be explicable by purely physical chemistry, may well indicate a paranormal phenomenon. This may still be relegated to what Indian Yoga calls 'siddhis,' - psychic or parapsychological phenomena. These are sought by 'fakirs,' but not yogis. Zen practitioners acknowledge that such phenomena exist, and call them Makyo - illusion - because as fascinating as they may be when compared to ordinary cause-effect phenomena, these things entrap us in fascination, which can then seduce us into their production, for their own sake. That would strengthen our attachments to worldly desires.

The production of a physical Stone, replete with all of its mythic attributes (not spagyric medicines which, like homeopathic preparations, may well have an effect upon more subtle aspects of our being, as in the 'Kolisko Effect' http://www.answers.com/topic/kolisko-effect), may represent a unattainable horizon - a symbol of transcendence of physical limitations as explained by physics and chemistry. It may inspire the 'faith which moves mountains,' the transmutation of water into wine, or the multiplication of five loaves and two fish into sufficient food to feed multitudes. When I was back there in seminary school, I tried to express the importance of LSD to a Hindu-born professor of New Testament studies. He told me that he believed metaphor to be more powerful. That was 35 years ago, and I never forgot that. I can better appreciate that statement today. Metaphor, midrash, myth, metaphysics - all use of the written word, the Logos incarnate on parchment, paper, or tablet.

Ought I to take an alchemical Homunculus at face value, for example, as an actual tiny being that takes form in a flask, or would I be more on point if I understood it as the Taoists refer to the "Immortal Foetus," which is an 'internal vehicle' - an idiom for a 'Corpus Incorruptibilis,' or a 'subtle body' that can contain consciousness apart from the physical body, for transference to a yet higher type of being? I am no stranger to laboratory work. I was doing laboratory experiments in a home lab from the time I was 10. Shifting to a ritual, magickal mind-set is also not alien to me, nor is combining the lab with the ritual mentality. But, obscuring a more penetrating analysis of what individuals are thinking, anticipating, hoping, expecting is critical, otherwise we can devise our own delusions or even share our delusions with others.

A fellow alchemist posted something that I was going to describe: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1622-The-Test-of-Blood/page2 Test your blood like so, then post what colour you get? (Make sure you get silica glass test tube, not pyrex.)

Please read the end chapters of Lisiewski's Israel Regardie and The Philosopher's Stone. The real experimentation, method, material, cycle, etc. described to create a homunculus. Frater Albertus also created a living creature, a mini homunculus, told by a close source. It escaped.

I know, it's safe to escape into concepts whether they're from the Far East or elsewhere. I have an undergraduate degree in Eastern Philosophy from Guelph '99. I can tell you from watching other "philosophers" almost all were lost, addicted, no grounding for their ideas, and in practice lived poorly - and I don't mean that financially as you can assume. They sure could quote what other philosophers said though.

MarkostheGnostic
06-24-2012, 08:30 PM
:) As a matter of fact, I have read of Lisiewski in Regardie's book. I also read The Man Who Was Frankenstein by Peter Haining, which I recommend you read if you're interested in these types of claims. I have included both of these books in the book I am struggling to complete. The second book is about Andrew Crosse, whose lectures it is highly probable that Mary Shelley, Byron, and their group also attended. I first read of Crosse as a child in a popular paperback from the early 1960s - Stranger Than Science by Frank Edwards. I have considered experimenting along Crosse's lines, more so than with Lisiewski's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acarus_Crossii

http://www.slemen.com/crosse.html

Now, as far as your remarks about quoting other philosophers, or even more dismissively, suggesting an "escape" into concepts from the "Far East" - that is your own projection, not my intention. Any scholarly pursuit needs corroboration from other researchers. I for one have made the attempt over the last 3 decades to make phenomenological correlations between the Occident and the Orient, not to attempt 'escaping' from any pursuit of truth. I do not simply 'believe' as a mode of apperception, and especially when physical phenomena are the object of research. Congratulations on your graduation in '99, but I'm not going to engage you in a 'pissing contest' with regard to education. My bio lists all of that. 'Believe' whatever you wish, but in the realm of form and phenomenon, a phenomenological reduction is absolutely essential to clear the unconscious incursions of wish-fulfillment, 'magical thinking' (the psychological reference, not the occult one), and fantasy that all-too-frequently colors the clarity of thought in fringe science and 'real magick.'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrO3jGUnHto

Krisztian
06-24-2012, 09:36 PM
O why be so emotionally volatile? No one has threatened your image on this hyperspace Forum. All is well. People express and write, that's all this is about.

Nibiru
06-24-2012, 11:08 PM
Hello :)

I found this video and thought it was cool and partially relevant to the conversation, but I don't know if it's a working set up or just art though..

http://vimeo.com/22171683

http://vimeo.com/22171683

MarkostheGnostic
06-25-2012, 01:47 AM
No volatility...just pointing out your edge. All IS well indeed. But, why would you assume that I'm perceiving a threat, unless you were intending to evoke such a response? "Image" might be a concern of yours (or why even go there)? I am not interested in personalisms, neither am I into playing games. I do strive for clarification as I do not want to be misunderstood. I just lay all the cards on the table for a shared look at a phenomenon in question. Everyone takes a look, but everyone goes home to make their own interpretations. I'm still analyzing the data (including my participation), and I have arrived at few conclusions, but nothing that I would assert as fact.

MarkostheGnostic
06-25-2012, 01:50 AM
Yes Niburu! Right on point! THANKS! :)

Ouroboros
06-26-2012, 08:07 AM
[QUOTE=MarkostheGnostic;22497]I saved your excellent picture! My wife's daughter, at the time in high school, took this the only time I'd been to England. Can I assume your pic is also from the British Museum?
yeah but unfortunately i didn't took it :(, it's from google.

Obsidian is for skrying. Even black spray-painted surfaces have been used in modern times for the purpose.
I don't know about this...I mean I heard that cocloured mirrors are good for practice too, but if I decide to do it I would use original obsidian mirror.

(I built one of these myself, only I used a plate of brass instead of a plate of gold to surround the crystal. My crystal is smaller, but I was only doing a demonstration of Wiccan practices, not practicing myself).
can ypu tell more about this practice and effects? I'm really new in all of this and my english is poor so if you could be specific and simple :)

MarkostheGnostic
06-26-2012, 06:06 PM
I don't know what your native language is, but your English is just fine. I'm only monolingual (despite my 2 years of high school Spanish, 3 years of living with a Colombian room mate, and almost 30 years in S. Florida)!

Skrying is a practice that is used in Wicca (at least Alexandrian Wicca, not certain about Gardnerian Wicca. After Alex Sanders and Gerald Gardner, respectively). Here, spelled as 'Scrying,' is a basic Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying
And this seems like a reasonable article since it shows the contradictions that one will find in the literature: http://astralthyme.com/scryingprocedure.html

I should add that I am not in favor of creating a vulnerable psychic condition that permits the unregulated upsurge of unconscious contents. I use trance induction for hypnotherapy of others, but I am telling them what they brought to me - their intention for change - and I am a pre-eminently ethical practitioner. I have very rarely used hypnosis to reprogram myself, but even then, my intention would be written down and visible to me after self-hypnosis has been established. I am not big on 'demons,' but demons may well be 'autonomous complexes' that reside in the 'Shadow' area of our unconscious. Autonomous complexes are 'constellations' of affect-cognition that seem to have 'a mind of their own,' Being troubled by one has been called 'demonic oppression.' Being preoccupied with one has been called 'demonic possession.' Of course, such experimentation may become quite a learning experience should one discover what kind of Shadow we have co-existing with our conscious selves in the unconscious. Just be careful. If you seek a teacher, make sure you don't feel creepy, sleazy, or some other unsavory 'vibe' about that person. Best if they are 'light-hearted' on more than one level.

Axismundi000
06-26-2012, 11:47 PM
Using Dee's call of the 30 aethyrs (in enochian) I have visited the 30 aethyrs OOB (out of body). Although some occultists consider this an achievment i agree with what Ray Sherwin once wrote in his book theatre of magic. Visiting the 30 aethyr's or scrying them in a shewstone as Kelly did for Dr Dee is a foundational exercise for the aspiring practitioner. That being said it should be done from 30 to 1 and most carefully, authors such as the scheuler's suggest that ones sanity of even physical life can be jeapardised if you go too high too fast (like Icarus).

I think a forum called evocationmagic.com has a whole sub-section on enochian but I have not read much of it so I leave it to the curious to draw their own conclusions.

Getting back to Alchemy I remember reading somewhere that the angels told Dee where some philosophers stone had been hidden, Dee and Kelly dug it up but if they actualy used it to project is not something I have read.

Ouroboros
06-29-2012, 07:13 AM
I don't know what your native language is, but your English is just fine. I'm only monolingual (despite my 2 years of high school Spanish, 3 years of living with a Colombian room mate, and almost 30 years in S. Florida)!

Skrying is a practice that is used in Wicca (at least Alexandrian Wicca, not certain about Gardnerian Wicca. After Alex Sanders and Gerald Gardner, respectively). Here, spelled as 'Scrying,' is a basic Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying
And this seems like a reasonable article since it shows the contradictions that one will find in the literature: http://astralthyme.com/scryingprocedure.html

I should add that I am not in favor of creating a vulnerable psychic condition that permits the unregulated upsurge of unconscious contents. I use trance induction for hypnotherapy of others, but I am telling them what they brought to me - their intention for change - and I am a pre-eminently ethical practitioner. I have very rarely used hypnosis to reprogram myself, but even then, my intention would be written down and visible to me after self-hypnosis has been established. I am not big on 'demons,' but demons may well be 'autonomous complexes' that reside in the 'Shadow' area of our unconscious. Autonomous complexes are 'constellations' of affect-cognition that seem to have 'a mind of their own,' Being troubled by one has been called 'demonic oppression.' Being preoccupied with one has been called 'demonic possession.' Of course, such experimentation may become quite a learning experience should one discover what kind of Shadow we have co-existing with our conscious selves in the unconscious. Just be careful. If you seek a teacher, make sure you don't feel creepy, sleazy, or some other unsavory 'vibe' about that person. Best if they are 'light-hearted' on more than one level.
well my native is serbian, and i don't have much opportunities to speak english in everyday speach. so i use just basic english we learn in schools, and stuff picked from movies, web, music...:lol:
ok i know what scrying is but i don't really know how procedure look like. i guess i will have more research in wiccan practice.
what exactly do you mean by "creating a vulnerable psychic condition" and "trance induction". does it mean using some psychoactive substances? cause i thonk that you must be very carefull with that. me myself never used any of it ( if you don't count weed from teenage days :lol:) but i was thinking about it, and to be honest it's not something i would take for granteed. person who want to use some of the psychoactive substances must be of perfect mental health, and perfectly balanced in other way i think it can be countreproductive and cause more harm than good.
about self hypnosis and revealing demons of unconscious....i thought that obidian mirror have similar purpose :lol: did i missunderstood it?
i was thinking about hypnosis, but i rather do self hypnosis than lay myself infront of some other person. i don't know, guess i don't trust people....maybe because a enormous number of sharlatans here in serbia.
thanks very much for advice. :)

Axismundi000
06-29-2012, 09:26 PM
I just did a brief google search "scrying techniques" several looked OK to me.

Krisztian
06-29-2012, 11:43 PM
well my native is serbian, and i don't have much opportunities to speak english in everyday speach. so i use just basic english we learn in schools, and stuff picked from movies, web, music...:lol:
ok i know what scrying is but i don't really know how procedure look like. i guess i will have more research in wiccan practice.
what exactly do you mean by "creating a vulnerable psychic condition" and "trance induction". does it mean using some psychoactive substances? cause i thonk that you must be very carefull with that. me myself never used any of it ( if you don't count weed from teenage days :lol:) but i was thinking about it, and to be honest it's not something i would take for granteed. person who want to use some of the psychoactive substances must be of perfect mental health, and perfectly balanced in other way i think it can be countreproductive and cause more harm than good.
about self hypnosis and revealing demons of unconscious....i thought that obidian mirror have similar purpose :lol: did i missunderstood it?
i was thinking about hypnosis, but i rather do self hypnosis than lay myself infront of some other person. i don't know, guess i don't trust people....maybe because a enormous number of sharlatans here in serbia.
thanks very much for advice. :)

Ouroboros, that's a fascinating logo you have beside your name. Did you create it?

MarkostheGnostic
06-30-2012, 02:02 AM
I was not referring to psychoactives, but rather classic hypnotic inductions - usually just verbal instructions, but sometimes with kinetic components (I'll ask permission to take a client's arm, or wrist, and begin a rhythmic motion, for those people who simply cannot go into trance with verbal instruction). The Chevruel pendulum is a simple way to induce trance (somnambulism). Just for your edification, I always have my wife in the house from which I conduct hypnotherapy. She always greets my clients. I also offer a light blanket for women, but it is usually refused. The last difficult client was an Orthodox Jewish 17 year old girl who could not turn off her mind. I had to meet certain Orthodox criteria for her to see me (mother was in adjoining room), and I needed specific permission to touch her wrist! Yichud law.

The Chevreul Pendulum, as I was taught, is held in thumb and index finger, but with elbow on table. There is no 'yes' or 'no' business as in the video. You just want your eyes to move up and down until the pendulm movement is subtly translated to still fingers via micro-movements. When it's going up and down, stop moving your eyes. Come to center stillness. Then begin moving your eyes side to side. Same process. Back to center. Then, move your eyes clockwise around the circle until movement is transferred to the pendulum. Stop. Reverse the direction. By the time the pendulum feels like it is being moved by an 'external' force, you have achieved dissociation, and are in a light trance state. Your intention for change should be written on a card and folded so that it is right there to look at, like, "I enjoy homework." "Stop smoking now!" It should be short and to the point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHWd56kBqio

Ouroboros
07-02-2012, 07:46 AM
Ouroboros, that's a fascinating logo you have beside your name. Did you create it?

nope, i wish...it's menton matthews, artist and musician. he was part of the band sunday munich, and now he perform under name saltillo. i'm not so big fun of his music as i am when his art is about :)
here you have more interesting art whith alchemy motives http://www.menton3.com/gallery.php?cat=1&ttl=Traditional&lst=1&pgn=0

Krisztian
07-02-2012, 03:20 PM
nope, i wish...it's menton matthews, artist and musician. he was part of the band sunday munich, and now he perform under name saltillo. i'm not so big fun of his music as i am when his art is about :)
here you have more interesting art whith alchemy motives http://www.menton3.com/gallery.php?cat=1&ttl=Traditional&lst=1&pgn=0

Yes, rather interesting portfolio. Thanks Brother.

Ouroboros
07-03-2012, 08:54 AM
brother?

Krisztian
07-04-2012, 12:27 AM
brother?

Intended as a 'figure of speech'. My attempt at North Americanizing my writing keeps failing.

Nibiru
07-04-2012, 02:29 AM
"Brother in The Art" could potentially be translated to many languages.

solomon levi
07-04-2012, 05:44 AM
Perhaps Ouroboros is saying she is a sister. ??

Ouroboros
07-04-2012, 06:58 AM
:D here man greets man with "brother" and very rarely if they want to use similar phrase to a woman they would say sister.
greeting brothers :)

Krisztian
07-04-2012, 08:23 AM
Perhaps Ouroboros is saying she is a sister. ??

Yes, I think so. Nibiru as always gives a helping hand. But I dug myself too deep with my comment. No one can save me this time!

D.Trout
08-31-2012, 12:47 PM
Getting back to Alchemy I remember reading somewhere that the angels told Dee where some philosophers stone had been hidden, Dee and Kelly dug it up but if they actualy used it to project is not something I have read.

Well, when Dee and Kelly we abroad in Europe in the mid 1580's, (Dee had become somewhat paranoid that Francis Walsingham was going to come and arrest him for Necromancy, though nothing in any record or diary of Walsingham would indicate this. Elizabeth seemed to trust his loyalty. Many have theorized that Dee was actually abroad spying in Europe under the pretence that he had fled his home in Mortlake for fear of arrest. It does make a modecum of sense, considering that as an Elizabeth-supporting expatriot of Protestant England, he wouldn't have been so readily accepted in Rome or Spain, and where better could he spy on the machinations of England's biggest enemy at the time, devoutly Catholic Spain, than in Prague, in the court of the Holy Roman Emperor.) While Dee was in Prague, Kelly had travelled, (I believe,) to Trebona on the order of Rudolph II to transmute gold.

Kelly's correspondences to Dee indicate that he'd been locked up for failing to produce gold, and then released for producing at least a small amount, and then locked back up again for failing to produce more.

Dee later recieved word that Kelly had died of complications to injuries he recieved while trying to escape imprisonment, (he broke at least one of his legs when he fell out of the window of a tower.)

But Dee's diaries do indicate that Kelly had corresponded with him with news of perfecting a technique with the Philosopher's Stone, and that he was very proud of his friend at the time.

Axismundi000
09-01-2012, 11:43 PM
The problem for me with Kelly is that he was clearly a scoundrel. He had his ears cut off for being a forger. When someone loses the outer ear 30-70% hearing loss occurs. This would have inproved Kelly's psychic ability because he would have been able to 'hear' in a different way more readily due to less auditory distraction. So I think he made a good scryer for Dee, he was still a scoundrel though and I do not think he achieved the stone. It is more likely I think he got caught in a scam and tried to escape but fell causing ultimately fatal injury.

D.Trout
09-02-2012, 10:48 PM
I have many problems with Kelly. I think in many ways he was a fraud and a charlatan...But on the other hand, I cannot believe that Dee was a willing conspirator in perpetrating a "Fraud."

I have read much on Dee's life, and have read the bulk of his surviving writings. While there may be a few intentional misdirections, and perhaps some unintentional errors of memory, I believe that Dee was sincere his portrayal and his documentation of everything that he wrote.

I ALSO cannot believe that Kelly, scoundrel and criminal that he was, was capable, (as some have postulated,) of fabricating everything that he scryed for Dee, and completely duping him into believing they had made contact with otherworldly intelligences.

Even if one doesn't believe the somewhat qustionable theories that Dee was a spy for Elizabeth I, or that he was the original 007, (or as Vincent Bridges has postulated was the man who initiated a young, otherwise uneducated, scribe named William Shakespeare into the Hermetic knowledge that appears throughout his plays,) or anything else about the Angelic Workings, no one can deny that Dee was shrewd and brilliant man.

That much is fact.

The idea that Kelly, who had a reputation for dishonesty, (which means that he wasn't a GOOD liar, forger, or thief,) could so completely dupe arguably the most brilliant mind in Britain, (and certainly ONE of the most brilliant in Europe,) at the time is really reaching. ESPECIALLY as the codes, ciphers, and cryptographic tables of letters and numbers were far beyond Kelly's means of conception, let alone rote memorization to later recite word-for-word, letter-by-letter, often in reverse order.

I don't care how much Dee WANTED to believe it. As long and as intimately as they worked together, (wife-swapping aside,) that is too much of a charade for anyone to concievably maintain that long.

I believe that Kelly may have STARTED with the intent to dupe Dee and milk him for money, reputability by association, and perhaps secrets that he thought Dee possessed for producing the Stone, but the entities that Kelly made contact with decided to actually set him to task, (and, in the diaries, the Archangel Michael, the Angel Av, the Angel Nalvage, and the Granddaughter of Light, Madimi often rebuke Kelly for lying and accuse him of necromancy. They punish him, call him stupid, and often utterly ignore him as nothing more than sensory organs so they can communicate with Dee. Kelly resented this, and feared it. I don't think that was an act. I think that was genuine.)

What I don't know is if the intelligences they contacted were what they claimed to be. So much of their appearance, their prophecy, their stated intent, and their...For want of a better term, I'll fall back on the Commedia Della Arte term: "Lazzi", reminds me greatly of the reports of extraterrestrial contact in the 60's-80's particularly. The "Important Messages" The coded information, the "Revelationesque" prophecy. Perhaps this is part of the same phenomenon, or perhaps even that same phenomenon is all part of some Jungian need rising from the collective unconscious...

I don't know. I've read a good amount on so-called "Enochian Magick," but haven't made any attempt at it, (that is the plan, however. But I plan on remaining a bit more true to the system conveyed to Dee, rather than the modern interpretations of it by the Golden Dawn, Crowley, and LaVey.) I might change my tune if and when I make that attempt.

So, yeah. Veering back onto actual ALCHEMY now.

All that stated above, I agree that Kelly WAS a scoundrel. Was interested in Alchemy solely for monetary gain, and was consequently no alchemist at all. In fact, I have to side with the "Angels" on this and say that beyond the work Kelly did with Dee, he's pretty much a non-entity, so anything and everything he claimed is suspect.

Axismundi000
09-03-2012, 01:20 AM
In broad terms I agree with what you argue D. Trout.

Permit me to bring something to the table:

Certainly enochian has grammer and syntax of it's own rather then for example that of hebrew which the Golden Dawn tried to use. The first time I came across good arguements for this was in the foreword to Laycock's enochian dictionary. The enochian letters however could just be symbols drawn from stenographia if the angels only gave sounds for consonants and vowels to Kelly; Dee could have then used symbols from stenographia for an alphabet. This could perhaps explain why some academics view enochian as merely a code system used by Dee to give secret messages to Walsingham about the Catholic agendas.

Another thing that caught my interest on one of Poke Runyon's podcasts was about how humans develop language skills as children. Apparently we have an innate ability to construct rules of syntax and grammer which normally exhibits in learning to talk when young. So in the abscence of language a child could spontaneously develop one (a language) so the theory goes. With regard to enochian then, is it possible that Kelly somehow regressed cognitively whilst having some kind of schizophrenic break. He then in his 'visions' gained a language which the innate part of his brain was able to develop rules of grammer and syntax for. Some people with asperge's syndrom can develop a new language which is internally coherent. The problem for me with this is that I spent about a decade going gradualy through the 30 Aethyrs pausing them for other magickal work over that time period. So the above inherent language facility explanation is not supported by my personal experience, but from a strict scientific standpoint it is a theory with some merit and a little bit of supporting evidence as well.

It is a shame that an incredible mind like Dee's was never fully applied to Alchemy. The modern work on spagyrics for example would have certainly enabled him to solve the problem of his 'bleeding fundament' which it would appear the enochian angels were unable to address for him.

z0 K
09-04-2012, 04:17 AM
Before writing Edward Kelly off as a charlatan perhaps one should read his alchemical writings and then compare the information therein with the "alchemical" writings of John Dee.

Edward Kelly wrote, The Stone of the Philosophers; The Humid Way, or a Discourse upon the Vegetable Menstruum of Saturn; and The Theater of Terrestrial Astronomy.

z0 K

Axismundi000
09-04-2012, 01:33 PM
I have looked at Kelly's stuff on pdf though many years ago when I was not starting Alchemy. The guy was definately in my view a charlatan.

Pardon me but do you understand what I was suggesting with respect to the enochian language?

z0 K
09-05-2012, 03:02 PM
I have looked at Kelly's stuff on pdf though many years ago when I was not starting Alchemy. The guy was definately in my view a charlatan.

Pardon me but do you understand what I was suggesting with respect to the enochian language?

I read your previous post and I do understand what you were suggesting (especially when one has read Dee’s, Hieroglyphic Monad):
“Dee could have then used symbols from stenographia for an alphabet. This could perhaps explain why some academics view enochian as merely a code system used by Dee to give secret messages to Walsingham about the Catholic agendas.”

What you suggest about developing language is right on with me.

John Dee and Edward Kelly were partners. Of the two Kelly was an alchemist. He was not a schizophrenic. The myths surrounding him include the assumption that he was a forger, a felon that had his ears cut off. To my knowledge there are no facts to support that assumption. There are similar myths about Nicholas Flamel, that he went from a poor scribe to a wealthy man by forging documents and using the mystique of alchemy to “launder” his clandestine wealth. There are no facts to support this speculation either. Does that make Flamel a charlatan?

Edward Kelly was an outlaw alchemist. So were many others including Eirenaeus Philalethes who confessed his crime of selling alchemical gold and then evading the authorities. A. Sutchen was imprisoned and tortured for making gold and not revealing the recipe. That is similar to what happened to Edward Kelly.

Anyone interested in John Dee’s work will get a dose of Edward Kelly in the mix. The whole scrying epoch they achieved was the result of their notorious partnership.

“Getting back to Alchemy I remember reading somewhere that the angels told Dee where some philosophers stone had been hidden, Dee and Kelly dug it up but if they actualy used it to project is not something I have read.”

Kelly (Talbot) was “traveling” (on the run) in Whales when the opportunity arose for him to buy a casket containing the red and white powders of projection made by the legendary St. Dunstan, the abbot of Glastonbury. That was before Kelly met Dee.

Kelly had been an apothecary among other occupations, and he had knowledge of chymystry. That's why he recognized the great value in the alchemical powders the grave robbers dug up and "sold" to the innkeeper for a flask of wine. Kelly performed many transmutations with the Glastonbury "stones" attempting to raise funding to start a lab to unravel the secrets of the alchemical treasure.


z0 K

Axismundi000
09-05-2012, 05:44 PM
Loads of interesting stuff here z0 K.

You have argued that Kelly was not a forger but merely persecuted for his art. I have read mainly secondary sources and at the time my motivation was purely to access the enochian magickal system. If what you say is true then the whole dynamic of the superior intellect of Dee and the crafty psychic Kelly would constitute a modern occult myth that I have been suckered into!

I think it was Stephen Skinner who wrote that Dee and Kelly were doing conjurations on a hill in the Welsh marches and were directed to dig up a treasure which they found to be the philosphers stone, so again my info is from a secondary source.

Thankyou for prompting me to re-examine this issue. My gut still says that Kelly was a scoundrel but this could be merely my prejudice over the wife swapping episode. Sometimes when important spiritual experiences have occured the historical mundane events relating to such work can become entirely resistant to reason. Perhaps if you could hit me over the head with the facts a few time here z0 K (give references) it will be greatly appreciated.

z0 K
09-05-2012, 06:27 PM
Loads of interesting stuff here z0 K.

You have argued that Kelly was not a forger but merely persecuted for his art. I have read mainly secondary sources and at the time my motivation was purely to access the enochian magickal system. If what you say is true then the whole dynamic of the superior intellect of Dee and the crafty psychic Kelly would constitute a modern occult myth that I have been suckered into!

I think it was Stephen Skinner who wrote that Dee and Kelly were doing conjurations on a hill in the Welsh marches and were directed to dig up a treasure which they found to be the philosphers stone, so again my info is from a secondary source.

Thankyou for prompting me to re-examine this issue. My gut still says that Kelly was a scoundrel but this could be merely my prejudice over the wife swapping episode. Sometimes when important spiritual experiences have occured the historical mundane events relating to such work can become entirely resistant to reason. Perhaps if you could hit me over the head with the facts a few time here z0 K (give references) it will be greatly appreciated.

The information about Edward Kelly that I posted comes from, The Alchemical Writings of Edward Kelly, translated from the Hamburg edition of 1676, published in the edition by James Elliott & Co. London 1893. This includes the 68 page biography by A.E. Waite. My copy is the fourth impression by Samuel Weiser, New York, 1976.

There is additional information about Edward Kelly that I read years ago in Gnosis magazine. The article addressed the legends that Kelly faked his death with the full approval of Emperor Rudolph II, the same tyrant that imprisoned him. Supposedly Kelly succeeded in repeating the processes detailed in the Glastonbury manuscript by St. Dunstan that was part of the alchemical treasure contained in the casket. Unfortunately I can’t find that issue of Gnosis magazine. So I’m going on memory alone.

Kelly then operated a “mine” for the Emperor that laundered the alchemical gold into his treasury. The Emperor didn’t want other potentates of the time to know he was filling his coffers with alchemical gold.

z0 K

Axismundi000
09-05-2012, 09:11 PM
Thanks for the info, I thought I had read th A.E. Waite book a couple decades ago but perhaps was'nt paying attention at the time. I will get a copy, any other sources?