View Full Version : General Ormus Questions

01-17-2012, 02:55 AM
Hello! This is my first post on this forum. I am interested in Ormus and have been experimenting with the salt precipitation methods from "Production of ORMES" (http://www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormeprep.htm). I have been reading these forums as well as David Hudson's lectures, some pages from the Subtle Energies website, books like Bartlett's "Way of the Crucible", Fulcanelli's "Mystery of the Cathedrals", some stuff by Paracelsus, and so on. I just finished "The Red Lion" which I saw recommended here by Solomon Levi. I would like to express my gratitude to everyone who has been willing to share their knowledge and experience, especially David Hudson and Barry Carter, not to mention old alchemists like Fulcanelli and Paracelsus. I have some questions concerning various production methods, which I was not able to answer from the sources I have read, and I'm hoping that some of the people who participate in this forum will be able to assist me.

1. Ormus and pH

Is anything known about the pH's at which different m-state elements precipitate? Is the pH behavior roughly the same for each platinum group element? I have tried creating a series of precipitate fractions by increasing the pH of a salt water solution, vacuum filtering, increasing the pH a little more, filtering again, and so on. The various fractions taste and look different but I have not yet been able to notice a difference in effect, aside from a persistent metallic aftertaste for the more alkaline fractions. It is clear that something is precipitating at around 10.0, and something else at around 10.8, due to the way the pH tends to rebound when adding lye drops near these values. Is something really happening at 8.5 as well (as "Production of ORMES" claims)?

2. Gilcrest

What is a Gilcrest precipitate? Which heavy metals are in it? Who was Gilcrest, and how was his precipitate discovered? For a long time I thought that this precipitate was supposed to form at pH 10.78, but then I read the "dry method" section of "Production of ORMES" which said it actually forms at 11.5. Apparently we should stay below 10.78 to be safe? Who came up with this? The Essene?

3. Method 4 technique

Method 4 from "Production of ORMES" appeals to me because it seems to yield a purer and safer product. But I recall reading that others had trouble with it. Are there any secrets to getting method 4 to work better? For instance, I have been using vinegar because some of the batches I made with HCl produced no results. Also, I associate with method 4 a decomposition problem - "ormus gas" bubbles forming (as evidenced by floating precipitate with large bubbles embedded in it), and after some experimentation I have had better luck when using magnetic stainless steel stock pots to store the intermediate stages. I find that when I do this, I can store the solutions for weeks with no problem. Is magnetic isolation more important for method 4? Do my four-gallon pots even provide meaningful magnetic isolation?

4. Method 4 theory, and coordination complexes

What is the chemistry behind method 4 (and also the "boiling gold" method)? Are we forming a hydroxide coordination complex with m-state elements? Are there other coordination complex techniques which could also be used to isolate m-state? For example, Walker et al "Stable Gold(II) Complexes in the Gas Phase" (Organometallics 1999 (18)) states that gold ions form stable coordination complexes with pyridine, acetone, and acetonitrile. Is this what happens in the "acetone path"? Presumably, the gold cyanidation extraction process yields gold coordination complexes which are not monoatomic - but could some of these other ligands be used to encourage parting?

5. Patent method technique

I have read that Hudson's (UK) patent method takes a month or more. Is this true? His statement that he walked other people through the method, to obtain an affidavit, made me think it was not so time-consuming. Which steps take the longest? I also read that the method as described in the patent is "incomplete" - what did he leave out? Is 0.45 micron filter paper really necessary? How about vacuum drying? Is there another method which I should use preferentially - Barry's H2O2 method? What is the theoretical mechanism by which inert gases could work to "charge" an ormus sample? Is there anyone who has done this method and can give hints on technique? Will the white powder turn red if it is sufficiently annealed in this way?

6. Hydrogen reduction on sea salt precipitates

Can I just hydrogen-reduce the results of some of the sea salt methods to get unbonded m-state, or will other reactions occur which prevent this from working? By "hydrogen reduce" I mean: heat the sample to 500-800C in a quartz test tube, while blowing hydrogen over it - I have gathered from Hudson's patent that something like this might work, but don't know the details of how it should be done. I just found out that a quartz test tube is only $15, and Amazon sells a Meker burner for $30, so it seems like an experiment that other people would have tried. (Is that the right kind of burner?)

7. Precipitate separation

The "Production of ORMES" document doesn't mention using a vacuum filter, but after watching an online video I decided to purchase one at about $80 and this has been surprisingly useful. My filter often yields a dense precipitate with a greasy feel, is this "ormus grease" or just alkaline salt with some water in it? Also, are there any other cheap separation techniques that I should know about? Honey centrifuges? Continuous-flow centrifuges?

8. M-state nuclear spin theory

David Hudson claims that in ormus elements there are no unpaired valence electrons, and he also explains their inert behavior by hypothesizing that the positive electric field of the high-spin nucleus expands beyond the outer electrons, thus discouraging bonding. I don't understand why increasing the nuclear spin could cause the electric field to "expand". The field of the nucleus depends on electric charge, which should only be a function of atomic number.

After reading the relevant parts of Hudson's patent and lectures a couple of times, I got a different mental image for what is happening. The lack of unpaired valence electrons (presumably inferred from spectral analysis?) seems to imply that some of the (normally full) inner electron shells have become only partly-full, or in other words some inner-shell electrons have been promoted to the higher energy outer shells. This phenomenon could be explained as a consequence of the high-spin nucleus, whose magnetic dipole would selectively impart a higher energy to those electron states whose spin is aligned in the same direction. If the effect is stronger for orbitals closer to the nucleus, which seems likely, then it could explain the apparent promotion of electrons to outer shells, resulting in inner shells being partly-filled with unpaired electrons. This would also explain why the nuclear spin of various different elements changes in the same or similar increments ("The emissions produce a characteristic band of energy spikes all spaced equally apart. The surprise: the spectra of some different superdeformed nuclei were almost identical." - from Scientific American, quoted in Dallas Workshop, Part 1). If each spin increment corresponds to the promotion of an electron, the energy gap could be largely independent of nuclear structure. Eventually with enough nuclear spin, the outer shells would fill to the point where the element externally resembles a noble gas (e.g. radon for gold, xenon for silver). Does this make sense? Could phase change to gaseous state explain some of the apparent "disappearance" and "weightlessness" effects, without invoking extra dimensions or Sakharov's gravitation theory as Hudson does?

9. Any advice? Any things I should experiment with, before I start filing down my little gold coin?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

ghetto alchemist
01-17-2012, 03:53 AM
Hello and welcome to the forum picnic.

That's one hell of a first post.
Prima Materia with one post to your name and already the resident expert on ormus. :)
I can't provide any extra information on any of those points that you don't already know.

I once tried method 4, but nothing extra dissolved (Eg MgOH remained in the precipitate), so I gave up and trying to get the extract out of the sea salt and instead simply started adding raw sea salt to my cooking every day. You have just inspired me to try again. I'll probably have some questions for you later if you decide to stick around.

As for filing your own gold coin, you should definately do it.
I always think that filing down raw gold and dissolving it is a rite of passage in alchemy, regardless of what the result will be.
My only advice here is to use pure HCl if you have it, (or purify it yourself it if you don't) because the impurities in the hardware store stuff will stuff up the colors in the reaction.

I do look forward to whatever else you decide to write about from your ormus experiences.

Ghetto Alchemist

01-19-2012, 07:56 AM
Thank you, Ghetto, you flatter me indeed. I guess the other experts must have ascended already.

Let me know if you still have trouble with Method 4. I do it with sea water, collected on a full moon, plus some extra sea salt. I use two 4-gallon stainless steel containers, heating to boiling or near boiling after every change in pH. I take everything right to pH 12 as the first step, or about 12.4 since I overshoot, then decant. Each 4-gallon batch takes almost a gallon of distilled vinegar to neutralise. I lately do two batches at once, one is with the clear solution above the first pH 12 precipitate, the other is with the filtrate after passing this precipitate through some cloth or coffee filters to remove the worst of the toxics. I prefer to just put the final precipitate through a vacuum filter, scrape the goo off the filter and eat it wet. The first batch is purer but yields a teaspoon or less of goo. I am not sure what you meant by "nothing extra dissolved" and "MgOH remained in the precipitate". The very fact that I get a precipitate in the first (purer) batch is proof to me that something strange is happening, probably involving coordination complexes. The second batch is probably pretty contaminated but still has a good effect, and anyway they say that extra salts are helpful to keep the ormus from evaporating.

I'll think about purifying HCl. I guess I just heat some and then bubble the result into water? It sounds fun but dangerous.


solomon levi
01-21-2012, 12:50 PM
Hi Picnic.

Wow. These questions are beyond my knowledge.
I recall the different minerals appearing in a certain order during the
arc experiments by Hudson, but as far as I know, there are no specific pH values
for the platinum group metals.
I can only imagine one would want to know that for purposes of parting the metals,
as i see no benefit in ingesting them separately. For parting the metals, they do have specific
frequencies which they can be extracted via electrolysis, but I don't know what they are.
Maybe it's in a CRC handbook. ??

I believe Gilchrist refers to this gentleman:

ghetto alchemist
01-22-2012, 06:49 PM
Hi picnic,
thanks for your reply on how you do your sea salt extract.
Seems like the way to go, acting on straight sea water and processing quite a lot at a time.

Just to reply to a couple of points:

I am not sure what you meant by "nothing extra dissolved" and "MgOH remained in the precipitate".
As I understand it, most of the precipitate is a magnesium salt, with other stuff in smaller amounts.
I really wanted to ditch the magnesium salt and only keep the other stuff, but alas I was unable to separate the precipitate any further.

anyway they say that extra salts are helpful to keep the ormus from evaporating.
you're right....so perhaps it isn't such a big deal to further process the precipitate anyway.

I'll think about purifying HCl. I guess I just heat some and then bubble the result into water? It sounds fun but dangerous.
It is pretty simple, there is a video on youtube that shows you if you want to search for it.
But I can explain it anyway....all you do is get a large tupperware container that can be sealed up airtight, and inside you place 2 open liquid containers, one containing distilled water and the other containing the dirty hardware store acid. Leave it sit for about 2 weeks, and what will happen is that the distilled water will become pure hydrochloric acid at half the strength of the original dirty acid.

This method also works for making pure acetic acid from vinegar.

Thanks again,

Ghetto alchemist

02-10-2012, 10:34 PM
Hi Ghetto,

Thanks, I saw that Youtube video for purifying HCl. It's interesting how much useful information about chemistry one finds on Youtube. I don't understand how you could apply the same technique to vinegar though, I thought vinegar was to be purified by freezing. The boiling point of HAc is 118 C.

How did you know that your Method 4 precipitate still had magnesium in it?

Are there any old alchemy books that talk about sea salt precipitates, or does all of our information come from The Essene?


03-30-2012, 10:03 PM
I have been producing ORMUS for almost eights years from several different materials. I have found that it does not matter in the least how fast you take the PH up as long as the temp never rises above around 72 degrees. I have not had evel the slightest cough or any other bacterial or viral illness in as long. I helped someone heal H1N1 in 17 hours and have assisted people heal Cancer. I have also found that with all other salts except Dead Sea, you HAVE to take the PH up higher to precipitate the mstate out.

solomon levi
11-17-2012, 12:45 AM
I'm just looking for someplace to post an insight into ormus.
There is/was this idea that ormus doesn't enlighten anyone, it just makes us
more of what we are, more intense.
I kind of see this happen when I travel the spectrum. Things are simply exponential like
the EM spectrum - a fractal hologram.
What I'm trying to say is that THIS is all there is. There is no place else to go.
There is THIS at higher or lower frequencies exponentially/fractally.... but as above
so below, as below so above...
We have to start where we are. "Heaven" or whatever Utopia or enlightened "place"
only exists if we transmute THIS into it - it isn't some other place, some future time.
THIS is all there is. Starting from some "other" imagined place/time is missing the
Prima Materia, rejecting the foundation stone.
Wherever you go is THIS only bigger or smaller, slower or faster. Sometimes people
do find speeds that seem more conducive to transmutation; alchemists call these Water or
astral. It's a relative term, not a fixed place. Water is whatever is above you, the Earth.
Earth is whatever your present vibration/reality is. Every vibration/frequency is
"physical"/material/Earth relative to itself and to other wave-particles vibrating at the same speed/size.

Of course, if you imagine heaven and hell to be places, the Youniverse will accomodate your description/dream.

The "higher"/"faster"/"smaller"/subtler frequency is water/mercury/solvent/root of any lower/slower/larger/denser frequency.