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pneumatician
01-24-2012, 07:25 PM
any medicine in tinture, 5 essence...

any experience ?

you can live 10 minutes without head ? wow! fascinating!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYp_Xi4AtAQ

solomon levi
01-24-2012, 07:51 PM
Are you asking if anyone has experience making a tincture or quintessence from
praying mantises?
I doubt such a tincture will let you live without your head for 10 minutes.
Even so, the 11th minute will come. Do you really have use for such a tincture?
Please don't kill these beautiful creatures.

pneumatician
01-25-2012, 12:27 AM
Are you asking if anyone has experience making a tincture or quintessence from praying mantises?

bingo!


I doubt such a tincture will let you live without your head for 10 minutes.
Even so, the 11th minute will come.

I've a fast sewing machine! :)


Do you really have use for such a tincture?

well, first read a bit of S & PM, their nature and nature around...


Please don't kill these beautiful creatures.

I doubt if S & PM have in their minds the concept of 'beautiful'
for a child a bunny... is beautiful, but you never have eaten rabbit ???

============
Only the finest masters and most complete fools are incomprehensible. - Confucius

Andro
01-25-2012, 01:00 AM
Only the finest masters and most complete fools are incomprehensible. - Confucius

The finest masters ARE complete (fools), and in the wisest possible way.

It's the the incomplete fools who are doing all the damage :)

Also, in Alchemy (REAL Alchemy) killing/death is only one step among many in giving the matter a new life.
This does NOT occur with vulgar or even spagyrical tinctures. Are you familiar with the concept of re-incrudation?

But, if you absolutely MUST kill (and not for food), I suggest metals/minerals (they feel MUCH less pain than animals and plants - and YES, plants DO feel pain) OR organic excretions or products (like urine, dew, saliva, honey, etc...)

John French ('Art of Distillation') has a lot of potent tinctures where no unnecessary suffering is involved. Check it out, if you like...

solomon levi
01-25-2012, 01:33 AM
[QUOTE=pneumatician;18707]
[SIZE="3"]I doubt if S & PM have in their minds the concept of 'beautiful'
for a child a bunny... is beautiful, but you never have eaten rabbit ???[/SIZE="3"]

Not as a child. :)
Do you know any children who say, "Let's kill the beautiful bunny and eat it."?

I'm not sure what S & PM refers to. A little help?

Of course, all forms of alchemy are allowed here.
I'm in no position to say "thou shalt not kill".
But I have developed compassion and connectivity.
I still eat meat. I'm not a vegetarian.

Did you ever think of "imbibing" the aspects of insects and animals without killing them?
Through meditation? That's just my personal preference.

Anyway, be the beautiful you that you are. :)
I don't mean to judge; just to suggests a non-violent alternative.

Assuming the consciousness of a child has been suggested by certain "authorities" as a way to "heaven". ;)

I just don't think a tincture of mantis is going to give you anything worth killing them.
Weigh the balance. I'm not sure what you expect to get from this tincture.

And you're right, beautiful is a useless relative word. I don't mean that beauty is the reason
not to kill. I just find them beautiful. The One, the Whole, is not beautiful any more than it is ugly.

I couldn't smash some mantises to make a tincture. It would really pain my conscience.

Seth-Ra
01-25-2012, 01:43 AM
SL and Androg make good points.

Alchemy involves connecting internally, with what is being done externally - any sort of animal work (insects included) will be very taxing on you, the Artist who set it into motion. Your entire being will be taxed, mind, body and soul, all in the hopes of coming out of the darkness on the other side - which you also are promising to your sacrifice in the flask. Some pull this off, some abandon their work as it gets to intense and they attempt to run from the shadows, others... are so broken that they are nearly beyond repair.

Simple archemical or spagyrical tinctures will not be as taxing - but the "karma" (or whatever law/principle you denote it as) will still come calling. If you connect to the sacrifice ahead of time, you may can get it to willingly participate - but dont deceive it in the process, or it will come back. If you truly connect with it though, how can you kill it - and if you go through with the death, how can you do so only promising spagyrics or archemy - doesnt it deserve the full Alchemical transmutation, as your friend?

Unlike plants and minerals, as a human you auto-correspond to the animal kingdom, you can relate to it more easily (though plants and minerals will still speak also - its just more automatic with that which your natural structure already corresponds to).

I know all of this from experience - having performed the sacrifice, and even now i make good on my promise to my friend, even recently one of its own kind appeared to see my progress - our progress.

So with that, look within yourself, and KNOW why you do wish to do it - make sure your intention, as well as actions, are as pure of heart as they can be. Then, you look into the eyes of your would-be sacrifice, your friend of Nature, and see if you can drive that blade through it.
http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/142/8eee55da88664d2a9bf2982104030186/l.jpg
Picture is curtesy of one of my nature friends, taken by me using my iPhone, while he posed on the car.





~Seth-Ra

pneumatician
01-25-2012, 02:42 AM
The finest masters ARE complete (fools), and in the wisest possible way.

It's the the incomplete fools who are doing all the damage :)

Also, in Alchemy (REAL Alchemy) killing/death is only one step among many in giving the matter a new life.
This does NOT occur with vulgar or even spagyrical tinctures. Are you familiar with the concept of re-incrudation?.

to make a tinture with a live organism, yes you need to kill it... the same do the female PM after copula with the male, give new life to what no longer serves (the male, read a bit of the PM cicle of life)


But, if you absolutely MUST kill (and not for food), I suggest metals/minerals (they feel MUCH less pain than animals and plants - and YES, plants DO feel pain) OR organic excretions or products (like urine, dew, saliva, honey, etc...)

sorry, I do not want to offend you but this is a bit naive... my friend, you live in a demented universe where violence is everywhere, inside your body exist a enless war agains viruses, bacteria..., in 10000 years of history only 200 in mankind are of peace, and look in the pics of hubble telescope... starts eating planets, galaxies crashing agains galaxies, starts exploding... "wonderful dementia!" :)
the Adamski ufo contactee talking with a 'master', the 'master' say about eating animals...: "well my son, these creatures will be happy to belong to an higher organism", and what are you ? an organism inside another organism? the universe could be a biological universe?

from an intellectual point of view, this universe is a pure aberration, the fruit of a perverted, evil and putrid mind!

kybalion, not good l! :)

(I hope you not start tinking absurdities, I don't have pleasure killing for killing like many idiots hunters do

==========
Who believes it is superior to another,
surely be right;
but in stupidity.

solomon levi
01-25-2012, 02:53 AM
Oh! S & PM = spiders and praying mantis. I thought you were referring to an alchemical manual. :)

Is it not naive to equate insects killing insects to humans killing insects?
I'm not just an insect anymore. There's a reason my DNA dreams together different than that of insects.
There's a reason we can self-reflect and insects don't.
There's a reason we have a conscience, or can develope one.
What can a spider give me that Philosophical Sulphur/rational soul can't?
Is there some greater consciousness in insects that you need to consume them to get it?
Certainly not.

I hope I can say that and you will discern objective fact from judgement.
I really don't think you're wrong. I just constantly practice "the bigger picture".
All pictures are equal under the One/Whole which cannot be framed.
So take it as you will. :)

Seth-Ra
01-25-2012, 03:14 AM
Oh! S & PM = spiders and praying mantis. I thought you were referring to an alchemical manual. :)

Is it not naive to equate insects killing insects to humans killing insects?
I'm not just an insect anymore. There's a reason my DNA dreams together different than that of insects.
There's a reason we can self-reflect and insects don't.
There's a reason we have a conscience, or can develope one.
What can a spider give me that Philosophical Sulphur/rational soul can't?
Is there some greater consciousness in insects that you need to consume them to get it?
Certainly not.

You are making a very valid point; the only reason for using animals, or plants, or minerals, is to grasp the Philosophical Sulphur / Spiritus Mundi / Life of that kingdom (the Life in that vibrational spectrum), and sometimes for the particular thing's own signature. (like picking a rose or acorn over a weed, or gold over aluminum, or a salamander over a worm etc.)

But on that note - spill some of your own blood, or other living liquids if it is truly for self-betterment. Your connection with the matter then, is solid, just be prepared for the Death and fermentation cycle. ;)

pneumatician, what is your goal for such a tincture? I think spiders would be more served, by keeping them as pets/friends, and using their webs to make magickal binding ink. (once was gonna do that with golden orb-weaver spiders, i still have the webbing for it...)



~Seth-Ra

pneumatician
01-25-2012, 03:25 AM
hey Seth-Ra, thanks, I understand all your reasons, but... are you a Buddhist ? do not worry for my karma, I am karma millionaire

Seth-Ra
01-25-2012, 03:32 AM
No, im not a Buddhist. Im a Christian, i have some Druidic traits also, and a good deal of warrior values. I have no problem with the killing - with the right reason/cause/intent/heart backing it. To deviate from such "right reason/heart", will do damage to self and possibly others, depending. I used the word "karma" as it makes the point - others would call it the 3 fold law, divine judgement, etc...etc... same principle, many names.

Just know, that whenever blood is spilled (in any kingdom, for any reason), that you are then stepping on "holy ground" - tread lightly, respectfully, and compassionately. :)



~Seth-Ra

pneumatician
01-25-2012, 04:06 AM
Oh! S & PM = spiders and praying mantis. I thought you were referring to an alchemical manual. :)

Is it not naive to equate insects killing insects to humans killing insects?
I'm not just an insect anymore. There's a reason my DNA dreams together different than that of insects.
There's a reason we can self-reflect and insects don't.
There's a reason we have a conscience, or can develope one.
What can a spider give me that Philosophical Sulphur/rational soul can't?
Is there some greater consciousness in insects that you need to consume them to get it?
Certainly not.

I hope I can say that and you will discern objective fact from judgement.
I really don't think you're wrong. I just constantly practice "the bigger picture".
All pictures are equal under the One/Whole which cannot be framed.
So take it as you will. :)

well, not is naive not kill it if you can discover a good medecine for save human lives ?
female PM kill the male because fornicate stimulates appetite ? cannibalism is a thing, killing for food another, is a good thing cannibalism ? what karma have the PM female ? a bit absurd

when a bird is sick, eat spiders (live of course) nature is very wise... sadly for the birds, the birds lack the tools to make tinctures...

consciousness in insects ? no my friend! archeous! vital principle...

"So take it as you will" i think you need a bit more information.

pneumatician
01-25-2012, 04:11 AM
pneumatician, what is your goal for such a tincture? I think spiders would be more served, by keeping them as pets/friends, and using their webs to make magickal binding ink. (once was gonna do that with golden orb-weaver spiders, i still have the webbing for it...)
~Seth-Ra

for the same reason people do the ENS PRIMUM MELISSA

solomon levi
01-25-2012, 04:12 AM
do not worry for my karma, I am karma millionaire

I like you Pneumatician. :)

pneumatician
01-25-2012, 04:15 AM
oh, i see your pic... "US ARMY" are you in the army ? what are the "warrior values" ?

Seth-Ra
01-25-2012, 04:32 AM
for the same reason people do the ENS PRIMUM MELISSA

Fair enough. :)



oh, i see your pic... "US ARMY" are you in the army ? what are the "warrior values" ?

I am a registered Private in the US Army - i have a thread explaining when i leave for Basic and all that. (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2550-My-Partial-Departure)
Aside from simply representing my branch also, i see its emblem as alchemical: the Star (quintessence) in the square (matter), not to mention the colors. :cool:

Are you wanting me to quote you the Soldier's Creed, or just my personal core principles? lol My core ones are: Honor, Servitude, Discipline, Respect, Self-Sacrifice, the maintaining of myself and my tools/weapons, and the resolve to fight "the good fight" (which would be the one my soul resonates with, and the one set before me) unto the death of my opponents (whom i respect, even in battle), and/or unto my own death (and resulting Life). :) There is as much Philosophical meaning in that, as there is literal.

That being said, and the fact that i work in the animal kingdom a good deal, i understand the equivalence - sacrifice and resurrection of the Life Force in the animal kingdom, and especially the fire of said kingdom. (volatile vibrational frequency of the Spirit) :)



~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
01-25-2012, 04:55 AM
well, not is naive not kill it if you can discover a good medecine for save human lives ?
female PM kill the male because fornicate stimulates appetite ? cannibalism is a thing, killing for food another, is a good thing cannibalism ? what karma have the PM female ? a bit absurd

when a bird is sick, eat spiders (live of course) nature is very wise... sadly for the birds, the birds lack the tools to make tinctures...

consciousness in insects ? no my friend! archeous! vital principle...

"So take it as you will" i think you need a bit more information.

"naive to kill..." Well, you went outside of the parameters to win that argument.
Just because it saves human lives, which it won't, doesn't make it not naive to
compare humans and insects as if they are on the same level.

I haven't mentioned karma. Now you're arguing things I have no argument with.

"birds eat spiders..." still not the same as humans. What heals a bird doesn't necessarily heal humans.
Nature is wise. Nature made spider digestion and human digestion different. Nature made humans
capable to get sick from psychological processes. Birds and insects don't have psychological.
Yes consciousness. All objects have consciousness. Atoms have consciousness.
Archeus... are you saying there is an individual archeus for spiders that is not in anything else?
Archeus is not individual. You might as well use dirt if you are after archeus.

I think we both need more information, and experience, my friend. :)

Anyway, I'm just arguing with my knowledge, impersonal, like a computer.
I still like you. :)

Ghislain
01-25-2012, 12:26 PM
sadly for the birds, the birds lack the tools to make tinctures...

I saw a wildlife program that showed Parrots eating nuts that were toxic. They couldn't understand how the
Parrots tolerated the toxin until they discovered that after consuming the nuts the Parrots flew off to to a place
where they ate the rock. After further investigation they found that the rock was an antidote to the toxin
contained in the nut.

Not sure if this is the same story, but HERE (http://underwatercolours.com/blog/?p=128) you can see an example of what I mean.

Ghislain

Andro
01-25-2012, 12:41 PM
sadly for the birds, the birds lack the tools to make tinctures...

Maybe they lack the tools, but they sure create special compounds inside their body-labs (see Ghislain's example, and also Kervran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corentin_Louis_Kervran)'s Potassium to Calcium transmutation study with chickens).

pneumatician
01-28-2012, 07:17 PM
some information and answers...

I ask if someone make a tinture, 5 essence from S & PM, nobody put any useful info, only 'moral', karmatic, or replys with absurd questions. well, a average discussion.

+++"naive to kill..." Well, you went outside of the parameters to win that argument.+++

I never want to WIN anything in a discussion apart from extract concepts & information.

+++ "birds eat spiders..." still not the same as humans. What heals a bird doesn't necessarily heal humans. +++

well, are you sure the spiders have no beneficial effect on humans / what is your experience for to say this?
If I ask this is because I have references of the positive efects...

BUT OF COURSE NOT PLAY WITH SPIDERS IF YOU DO NOT KNOW what you're doing BECAUSE SOME SPIDERS CAN KILL YOU

+++ Archeus... are you saying there is an individual archeus for spiders that is not in anything else? +++

from teosofical glossary
Archaeus (Greek) .- "The Old". This term applies to the most ancient deity manifested, and is used in the Kabbalah, "archaic" old, ancient. [It is the formative power of nature, which divides the elements and form organic parts. It is the beginning of life, the power that contains the essence of the life and character of all things. - F. Hartmann]

I am amazed to read here many people taking 'drugs' without any clear objective... only for see colored lights and wonderfull images... :-?

from 'PSYCHEDELIC SHAMANISM
The Cultivation, Preparation and Use of Psychotropic Plants' by DeKorne, Jim

from a mushroom...

"I am old, older than thought in your species, which is itself fifty times
older than your history. Though I have been on earth for ages I am from
the stars. My home is no one planet, for many worlds scattered through
the shining disc of the galaxy have conditions which allow my spores an
opportunity for life... Since it is not easy for you to recognize other
varieties of intelligence around you, your most advanced theories of
politics and society have advanced only as far as the notion of
collectivism. But beyond the cohesion of the members of a species into a
single social organism there lie richer and even more baroque evolutionary
possibilities. Symbiosis is one of these.
Symbiosis is a relation of mutual dependence and positive benefits for
both of the species involved. Symbiotic relationships between myself
and civilized forms of higher animals have been established many times
and in many places throughout the long ages of my development. These
relationships have been mutually useful; within my memory is the
knowledge of hyperlight drive ships and how to build them. I will trade
this knowledge for a free ticket to new worlds around suns younger and
more stable than your own. To secure an eternal existence down the
long river of cosmic time I again and again offer this agreement to higher
beings and thereby have spread throughout the galaxy over the long
millennia. A mycelial network has no organs to move the world, no
hands; but higher animals with manipulative abilities can become
partners with the star knowledge within me and if they act in good
faith, return both themselves and their humble [sic] mushroom teacher
to the million worlds to which all citizens of our stars warm are heir."

this text leaves the 99% of manking like...
and explain very well the disappearance of the mayas, the pyramids...

+++ I saw a wildlife program that showed Parrots eating nuts that were toxic. They couldn't understand how the Parrots tolerated the toxin until they discovered that after consuming the nuts the Parrots flew off to to a place where they ate the rock. After further investigation they found that the rock was an antidote to the toxin contained in the nut. +++

I known very well this... a feral boy who can speak when he was ill 'talk' with a snake and the snake had told him what plants to eat or had to do to heal.

Seth-Ra
01-28-2012, 07:29 PM
Are you asking how one would extract the essence of the creatures? If so, i'll send you a PM of how ive done so with similar things.

I was not meaning to only "lecture" or ask questions, just wanted to be sure you understood the risks, it was a friendly gesture. :)




~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
01-29-2012, 12:30 AM
I am amazed to read here many people taking 'drugs' without any clear objective... only for see colored lights and wonderfull images... :-?

There were very clear objectives...experience.


this text leaves the 99% of manking like...

Not sure how to interpret this?


from 'PSYCHEDELIC SHAMANISM
The Cultivation, Preparation and Use of Psychotropic Plants' by DeKorne, Jim

Was that an intro to the "from a mushroom" text as I thought that was by Terence Mckenna.


THE MUSHROOM SPEAKS by Terence McKenna

Ghislain

solomon levi
01-29-2012, 04:17 AM
Are you asking how one would extract the essence of the creatures? If so, i'll send you a PM of how ive done so with similar things.

I was not meaning to only "lecture" or ask questions, just wanted to be sure you understood the risks, it was a friendly gesture. :)

~Seth-Ra

Me too. "Lecture" is relative to how you chose to listen.

solomon levi
01-29-2012, 04:24 AM
I don't have much experience with spiders, but with some other creatures.
For example, today I really connected with a chickadee and aligned my soul
with it's personality to incorporate some more joy into my life. For me, I am
certain that killing this chickadee would not have provided me the same frequency.
But as i say, it depends if you have cultivated conscience.
I have experience with snakes, trees, clouds, bison and water mainly.
And people. Mostly a people "hunter"/shaman.
But I can "feel" anything rather quickly just by scanning it with my attention.
I don't feel anything "heightened" when I scan an elixir of praying mantis.
I don't have much use for emphasizing that consciousness/awareness.