PDA

View Full Version : A vegetarian tradition



zoas23
01-25-2012, 02:35 AM
Hi... !

Being myself vegetarian since I was a little kid, when I started to investigate about Hermeticism I was glad to find that it was a vegetarian tradition. Actually, mostly the whole of the neo-platonist traditions were vegetarian, Hermeticism being one of them (I could provide lots and lots of quotes to show it, but I assume that it's not necessary to do such thing here... that most people here knows it).

On the other hand, I find it strange that nowadays most of the people who are interested in Hermeticism are not vegetarians. This isn't something that happened recently, but it's been like that for quite a long time.

Why do you think that vegetarianism was mostly discarded from the hermetic tradition?

(BTW: I am not trying to bring vegetarian propaganda here... I'm vegetarian since more than 20 years ago and I've already passed the "let's try to convince everyone" phase, it's just a question).

Awani
01-25-2012, 02:54 AM
I don't think it was discarded on purpose, I just think that the dominator culture became stronger with the rise of industry, producing a meat eating populace (which includes the "occultists" of all sorts). To eat pork is to eat fear... animals killed on a conveyor belt feel fear, a certainly different fear than when killed by a lone hunter in the wild.

We live in a culture of fear because we eat fear. I too don't try to convince others to go vegetarian... but I wish they would. The worse argument I hear the most is we have always been carnivores. Just because a thing has been practiced for a long time doesn't make it right.

But let's not get into a pro/con debate on eating meat... (but it might be difficult to avoid).

:cool:

solomon levi
01-25-2012, 03:50 AM
It's a good point Zoas23.
One I will contemplate some more.

I think we have become more rational (I don't mean that in a good or bad way).
Some rationalisations I know are:

Jesus said it is not what goes into your mouth, but what comes out of it.
i.e. that we shouldn't emphasize diet or fasting but purify the mind or soul.

It also seems irrational to separate killing animals from killing plants.
Personally, I can't see why one would be ok and not another.
We know that life is life - mercury is one.
But I do agree with Dev's point on eating fear frequency flesh - can't be good.


This may or may not be an appropriate comparison or parallel, but there
is a shamanic tradition of eating the meat of particular wild animals which one
prepares oneself. This meat is a "power" food.

So to me this is an issue of frequency and vibration/alchemy.
Vegetarianism is kind of a "blanket statement" whereas a discerning individual
can make exceptions and still keep to the frequency mandate.
Consciousness is primary, matter is secondary.
Through conscious means, or intent, we can bend the rules of matter.

But I agree vegetarian would be a good practice based on frequency, especially
if we keep religious or moral aspects out of it which seem to fail reason.

Awani
01-25-2012, 05:53 AM
This may or may not be an appropriate comparison or parallel, but there
is a shamanic tradition of eating the meat of particular wild animals which one
prepares oneself. This meat is a "power" food.

Well ancient cannibalistic societies did the same. They chose a person, made him/her a god, sacrificed and then ate the flesh. A tradition still alive in the Catholic church, eating the body of Christ etc.


It also seems irrational to separate killing animals from killing plants.

Yes, this is true... plants are highly intelligent, just as animals are... but in a sense to eat animals is to be a cannibal... we relate to them, we are a part of their kingdom. The plant world is another realm altogether. Besides a lot of vegetarian food is actually only eggs or semen; seeds... not actually the plant itself. Like fruits etc.

:cool:

solomon levi
01-25-2012, 06:58 AM
Well ancient cannibalistic societies did the same. They chose a person, made him/her a god, sacrificed and then ate the flesh. A tradition still alive in the Catholic church, eating the body of Christ etc.



Yes, this is true... plants are highly intelligent, just as animals are... but in a sense to eat animals is to be a cannibal... we relate to them, we are a part of their kingdom. The plant world is another realm altogether. Besides a lot of vegetarian food is actually only eggs or semen; seeds... not actually the plant itself. Like fruits etc.

:cool:

It appears to me that you have had much more intimate relations with plants than animals. :)
If we are more related to animals, why do plants show us "God" (entheogens).
For me, humans are microcosm, not animals. We have mineral consciousness, plant cons,
animal cons, and universal cons. We have minerals in our bones and fluids and cells.
Our nerves are more like plants, like root systems and the glands are like fruits.

As a reminder of relativity, compare vegetarians to breatharians
who have a "greater truth" or have moved even further away from "their kingdom". :)
When did we lose breatharianism?

We relate to various things depending on our awareness.
If we relate more to animals than plants or spirits, that says something
about one's focus/attention/center of gravity. It doesn't really tell us who we are.
There's probably someone in a mental hospital that relates to a box of cheerios.

Awani
01-25-2012, 07:00 AM
He he, I mostly meant physically related according to the genres put forth by science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)

:cool:

zoas23
01-27-2012, 02:04 AM
I don't think it was discarded on purpose, I just think that the dominator culture became stronger with the rise of industry, producing a meat eating populace (which includes the "occultists" of all sorts). To eat pork is to eat fear... animals killed on a conveyor belt feel fear, a certainly different fear than when killed by a lone hunter in the wild.

Thanks for all the answers.

I always wanted to write an essay on this subject, but whilst it's actually very easy to write and explain why Hermeticism started as a vegetarian tradition, I mostly have very little to say about what happened later (i.e, why vegetarianism was discarded).

A long time ago this one was a very controversial subject (I'm thinking about Porphyry's "On Abstinence", his main thesis is that a Philosopher who eats meat is very much like a non-smoker who smokes, i.e, something that doesn't make any sense). Though it's also true that Porphyry had very little in common with any modern "Animal Rights activist" (I may confess that I fit into this category even if I have no intention to bring that part of me here, because it doesn't make sense). He didn't care that much about "Animal Rights", his ideas are mostly related to not contaminating the body, with, as Dev said, "not eating fear".

A lot of modern Hermeticists remained vegetarian, but whilst they thought that this practice was good for them, they didn't seem to make any suggestions to other people about it (the example that came to my mind would be Mathers... he was vegetarian, Moina Bergson, his wife, was vegetarian too... and whilst both of them wrote a lot of things for the Golden Dawn, I think they didn't write a single line about vegetarianism, nor they suggested to practice it).

I think you are right Dev... that there wasn't any specific change of ideology, but mostly that Hermeticists simply started to eat "just like everyone else".

Awani
03-13-2012, 01:37 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/12/health/red-meat-shorten-lifespan/index.html

The Shamans of Peru have been proven right (if science is to be believed), but I have never had any doubt and I am sure the old Hermits knew what was at stake (when eating steak).


Using data from two long-running studies of health professionals, researchers tracked the diets of more than 121,000 middle-aged men and women for up to 28 years. Roughly 20% of the participants died during that period.

On average, each additional serving of red meat the participants ate per day was associated with a 13% higher risk of dying during the study. Processed red meat products -- such as hot dogs, bacon, and salami -- appeared to be even more dangerous: Each additional daily serving was associated with a 20% higher risk of dying.

Based on these findings, the researchers estimate that substituting one daily serving of red meat with fish, poultry, nuts, legumes, whole grains, or low-fat dairy products would reduce the risk of dying in this stage of life by 7% to 19%. If everyone in the study had slashed their average red-meat intake to less than half a serving per day, the researchers say, 9% of deaths among men and 8% of deaths among women could have been prevented.

:cool:

zoas23
03-13-2012, 06:01 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/12/health/red-meat-shorten-lifespan/index.html
The Shamans of Peru have been proven right (if science is to be believed), but I have never had any doubt and I am sure the old Hermits knew what was at stake (when eating steak).


It is easy to show that a vegetarian diet is healthir and there are thousands of similar studies, all of them mostly show the same.
I even have personal stories about it: since there are too many cases of colon cancer in my family both coming from the side of my mother and my father, then my whole biological family was asked by a doctor to be checked once per year. When I went to be checked for some reason I mentioned that I am vegetarian, the doctor said that it was a good choice, but also added that I didn't need to be checked, that even if it wasn't impossible, it is very strange to see a vegetarian having cancer in the digestive system... in short: he mostly said: "you don't need to come back".

Anyway, showing that it's healthier is easier. I am also very active in different animal rights forums, so posting PETA videos would be easy too.
... but I didn't want to start preaching here.

I was mostly curious about the fact that we are all heirs of vegetarian traditions... and yet nowadays talking about that is even a little bit bizarre. So mostly my question was "What happened????".
I think your post, the second post of this thread gave the right answer of what happened. The answer is quite silly and obvious, and yet it is probably the whole truth and there's not much more to say on the subject of what happened (if it was my choice, then I would prefer if our tradition was still a vegetarian one, but that's not what is happening... with some exceptions, of course).

III
03-13-2012, 07:03 PM
Being a vegetarian almost killed me. I did it for more than 20 years until I found all the problems. I can't utilize the most common vitamin forms used as b12, cyancobalamin or hydroxycobalamin. I have to have tha natural active forms found in meats and in some supplements. Then in addition, I can't get enough carnitine from veggies and my mitochondria shut down. Then I can't utilize vegetable forms of folate (folinic acid) and it actually blocks the active methylfolate form found in meat. Right now, as I write, I have finally emerged from lifelong paradoxical folate deficiency.

There is a good clue to be found in the "Tantric meal" which includes meat and fish providing both forms of active b12, methylb12 and adenosylb12 and the active folate, methylfolate as well as omega3 oils. This has been considered a "power" meal becasue a vegatarian can feel the "energy" in 2-3 hours. In alchemical terms it was thought that the tantric meal gave power because of confronting taboos. Now we know that it provides vital nutrition.

I could feel the difference each day I didn't eat meat. My vegatarian friends all said "toxins (and other things) flowing out of your system" and other such misunderstandings. Instead it was vitality and life draining out of me day by day. The 7 year crash and 20 year crash are well known in vegatarian circles.

Becoming a vegatarian was the worst mistake I ever made. It destroyed my health and cost me everything in my life getting very close to killing me.

India is rife with vegatarians sudfering hundreds of symptoms from chronic b12 deficiencies. It is the leading cause of reproductive failure in India.

To survive in health one MUST get the animal food source only mb12 and adb12 in one's diet one way or another. Manure supplies b12. Fermented manure supplies even more.

We all evolved as omnivoires. I must have come from a tribe of heavy meat eaters or the genes I have could never haver survived. While there may be some advantages to a vegatarian diet for some people as long as they get their b12 somehow, for others it is disabling or fatal. Methylb12 and adenosylb12 wake up the nervous system making them much more functional for alchemy and spiritual work.

Awani
03-13-2012, 08:35 PM
Yes one has to take care of what one eats on any diet. That comes with the territory. Especially a non-beer drinking vegetarian such as myself must get B from other sources. Certain birds and fish (especially fish that only eat plants) are much better option than red meat. Whatever our ancestors ate is not what meat eaters today eat. Beware;)

:cool:

zoas23
03-13-2012, 08:56 PM
Being a vegetarian almost killed me. I did it for more than 20 years until I found all the problems. I can't utilize the most common vitamin forms used as b12, cyancobalamin or hydroxycobalamin. I have to have tha natural active forms found in meats and in some supplements. Then in addition, I can't get enough carnitine from veggies and my mitochondria shut down. Then I can't utilize vegetable forms of folate (folinic acid) and it actually blocks the active methylfolate form found in meat. Right now, as I write, I have finally emerged from lifelong paradoxical folate deficiency.

This was mostly about an historical explanation about why Hermeticism is no longer vegetarian nowadays... but it doesn't look there is a very interesting explanation besides from the obvious explanation (I somehow knew it.... I was mostly trying to see if someone had an interesting theory, but nobody seems to have one and I don't have one either).

Having said such thing, I do ingore the special detaills of your medical condition. B12 can be a problem sometimes, I do check myself from time to time because of that, but never had a B12 deficiency myself. I counted the time again and I am vegetarian since I was 11, I am 35 now... 36 in a few months. It is almost 25 years actually (time flies!). No doctor during that time suggested me to go omnivore, the only doctor that talked to me about the subject was the oncologyst, who mostly gave me a thumbs up.
Besides from the flu that I caught from my lovely GF right now, I never had any kind of "special" medical problems during my life. Never heard about the 7 or 20 years crash in my life either till reading your post.

I am unable to say what happened to you, except that I find it strange.

III
03-14-2012, 04:56 PM
This was mostly about an historical explanation about why Hermeticism is no longer vegetarian nowadays... but it doesn't look there is a very interesting explanation besides from the obvious explanation (I somehow knew it.... I was mostly trying to see if someone had an interesting theory, but nobody seems to have one and I don't have one either).

Having said such thing, I do ingore the special detaills of your medical condition. B12 can be a problem sometimes, I do check myself from time to time because of that, but never had a B12 deficiency myself. I counted the time again and I am vegetarian since I was 11, I am 35 now... 36 in a few months. It is almost 25 years actually (time flies!). No doctor during that time suggested me to go omnivore, the only doctor that talked to me about the subject was the oncologyst, who mostly gave me a thumbs up.
Besides from the flu that I caught from my lovely GF right now, I never had any kind of "special" medical problems during my life. Never heard about the 7 or 20 years crash in my life either till reading your post.

I am unable to say what happened to you, except that I find it strange.

Hi Zoas,

It was the reported "magical" seeming effects of the Tantric meal (context - I'm a Tantric Alchemist), in vegetarians, that pointed me in the direction of these nutrients. The b12 deficiency seen today is different from the "traditional" absolute b12 deficiency. In today's deficiency it is a partial deficiency because the two main supplemental forms, cyanocbl and hydroxycbl, are partially effective. So instead of "pernicious anemia" of prior to 50 years ago what we see today are the diseases of partial deficiency; fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue syndrome, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, ALS, MS, Autism, SupraNuclearPalsy and some others all linked via brain/cord/CNS cobalamin deficiencies.

When 20+ years of a multitude of doctors were unable to solve the mystery of why I was so ill, decades before "Fibromyalgia" and "chronic fatigue syndrome" were even dreamed of I took on my own case as a healthhcare consultant to solve my problems instead of other people's problems. Much of the cause of my specific combination of problems are because of genetic considerations. So my inability to utilize folic acid satisfactorly is shared with 50% of the population, my inability to utilize vegetable folate is shared with maybe 1% of population. And so on for each of perhaps a dozen more variations.

One of the effects of methylb12 is that it is protective against many toxins and helps elliminate mercury from the body. A person with adequate mb12 in their body will be able to tolerate toxins better, including botulism and tetanus.

First, I must state that a person who has no trace of deficiency has no response at all to mb12 or adb12. They don't do anything extra. A simple Tantric meal doesn't have any noticable effect for a meat eating person. However, partial deficiencies that many have will respond to a modern version of the tantric meal in the form of supplements. Only some brands and forms are effective in this. My first 1000mcg sublingual tablet of mb12 had as large a rush as a sizable LSD dose. And like LSD all the colors were bright and "hyper-real". I had a full day of euphoria from it in addition to less pleasant startup effects. This repeated daily for some months until I reached a "fully charged" state. I was very deficient. I had similar effects all over again as I added adenosylb12 and l-carnitine fumarate later. Given to 10 teenaged users of various substances every one of them called it "The best legal high I've ever had". It turns on the neurology and very definitely affects Kundalini.

The tantric meal 1000 years ago was considered to violate the taboos against flesh eating and the Tantric Alchemist gained power by violating taboos. Magical. A scientific explanation is possible as nutritional rather than magical.

The ONLY definitive test of whether a person is functionally deficient in either form of b12 (two B12 forms, body and CNS for 4 deficiencies in all) is to take them. Most people who are going to have a response will within 2 hours except for those with CNS only deficiencies. That is more subtle becasue it requires larger doses to evoke. A single tablet of Jarrow methylb12 or Enzymatic Therapy b12 infusion (methylb12) and Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) (b12s under upper lip for 2+ hours) preceded by an hour by a b-complex, 800mcg of Metafolin and a capsule of l-carnitine fumarate will do anything from nothing at all to blowing a persons socks off clear to the next county.

Historical considerations are a conglomeration of lots of individual choices. I choose to try a vegetarian diet, for 20+ years, for all the reputed Alchemical reasons. I choose to quit it after I had found the causes of my 200+ symptoms and lifetime of illness coming to a crisis as a vegetarian. Now via careful observation and experiments with foods I find that I can't be healthy no matter how much Metafolin I take if I get too much vegetable folate which actually blocks the Metafolin. Every Alchemist is experimenting. Healing the mind and body based on the evidence rather than beliefs is both Alchemical and scientific. So now in my 60s I can finally enjoy health. In doing so I had to change my belief systems about diet, scientific research methods and results. It's been transformational.

III
03-14-2012, 05:03 PM
Yes one has to take care of what one eats on any diet. That comes with the territory. Especially a non-beer drinking vegetarian such as myself must get B from other sources. Certain birds and fish (especially fish that only eat plants) are much better option than red meat. Whatever our ancestors ate is not what meat eaters today eat. Beware;)

:cool:

Hi Dev,

Fish itself is relatively low in b12. However, filter feeders like clams and oysters have the highest b12 content of any foods. In a person with functional deficiencies mb12/adb12 can act as an aphrodesiac. B12s only come from animal foods. It is produced by bacteria and accumulated in animal tissue.

Andro
03-27-2012, 10:02 PM
1. Not everything works for everyone.

2. The Plant/Vegetable Kingdom IS aware and DOES feel pain.

It just doesn't trigger the same subjective emotional reactions as the Animal Kingdom does with Humans (an issue of structure/design similarity).

It's exactly those emotional reactions that the vegan preachers are counting on in their sermons.

Besides, it's more what they put the animals through that generates the negative aspects, as well as what they are fed (same goes for industrially grown plants - pesticides, etc...)

3. Comic relief:

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/VeggieMurder.jpg

solomon levi
03-28-2012, 12:26 AM
Hey. Those rocks have children.
Won't somebody think of the children!?

;)

zoas23
03-28-2012, 12:48 AM
The ONLY definitive test of whether a person is functionally deficient in either form of b12 (two B12 forms, body and CNS for 4 deficiencies in all) is to take them.

There are specific blood tests for B12... and they tell you if your levels are normal, low or high.
My levels have always been normal and I've been tested a few times in routine examinations.

I'm not really into violating all the taboos that come to my mind; at least not the ones that involve hurting another animal.

Again, I am really unable to say much on your medical condition, since I've never experienced those problems, nor I know any other person who was in that situation, but I trust your word that what you are saying is accurate. I am unable to make any kind of comment, except listening.

Salazius
03-28-2012, 07:31 AM
I've been in contact with some veggies lattely. And some activits.
Generally it's all about emotional empathy for a specific kingdom - animals, with generally a less important empathy for humans. They are also very intolerant about meat eaters. Of course I don't give my "ok" to animal suffering. Neither my "ok" for veggies suffering.

What you say Androgynus is right. Some also have kind of muscles. When you touch them they move very quickly with a movement of retraction it is called "the sensitive" or mimosa pudica.

I would add that even rocks have their own level of sensation. Piezzoelectric effect is an example : how to take the emotion out of a rock ? Put it under violent pressure = electricity in the case of quartz.

zoas23
03-28-2012, 09:14 AM
I've been in contact with some veggies lattely. And some activits.
Generally it's all about emotional empathy for a specific kingdom - animals, with generally a less important empathy for humans.

This "less empathy for humans"... It must be a wrong perception we create in meat eaters. It is not the first time I hear about it.
Yes, I do know a very few vegetarians who have a weird "anti-human" feeling that I don't get and I can't understand either (to be honest, I only know them from forums, I don't know face to face any vegetarian like that).

The vegetarians I know face to face are on the opposite side of the street, extreme empathy for humans.
(it is also true that it is very much impossible for us not to think that the meat eaters are doing something "wrong"... this doesn't need to be translated as hate -i.e, my girlfriend isn't vegetarian and I know she'll never be vegetarian... and I would gladly get marred to her right now).

In my own case, I am trying to set up my own "charity" which simply involves cooking vegetarian food for the homeless (I have already done it a few times in these last months, I am planning to do it on a regular basis for the next years or probably my whole life). This is mostly because I believe that homeless people receive a lot of violence and giving them meat involves giving them even more violence, whilst vegetarian food is peaceful. My main inspiration for believing such thing is probably Porphyry (I really like his "On Abstinence of animal food" book).



They are also very intolerant about meat eaters.

Not really. I think you are confused.
As I've said, most vegetarians (and I include mysef here) really believe that meat eaters are doing something "wrong".
Even if someone locks the two of us in a room for a whole year and we decided to ONLY talk about this issue, by the end of the year I would still think you are doing something "wrong"... but then again, this doesn't translate into "hate" or "intolerance". Because of the potos you have submitted I knew an artistic side of you and I honestly admire your works, I mean, they are fantastic and I do admire what you do, even though I can't admire the fact that you eat meat... BUT, as I've said, my own girlfriend is a meat eater and I do admire her and I mostly love every detail of her... and yet I don't think it's amazing that she eats meat. Do we talk a lot about such thing? No. Did such thing ever made me think that we don't belong together? No.

(i.e, I know my limits... I am unable to have racist friends. I even tried it with a friend who had weird racist views and it wasn't a long time till I had to tell her that I didn't want to talk to her again in my whole life... I never decided that a meat eater can't be my friend... and in most cases you won't find me preaching about being vegetarian either).

I can also say that each time there's a "vegetarian thread" in any kind of forum, I mostly end up having the perception that the meat eaters are mad at us (us = the vegetarians). Again, this one can e a wrong perception too.


What you say Androgynus is right. Some also have kind of muscles. When you touch them they move very quickly with a movement of retraction it is called "the sensitive" or mimosa pudica.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to portrait vegetarians as "people not concerned with the life of the plants"... or psychopaths who hate plants so much that they are planning some sort of genocide against the vegetables and wanna see the vegetables suffer.

Anyway... this type of discussions lead nowhere.

I still like the fact that Orphism, Pythagorism, Platonism, Neo-Platonism, Hermeticism, etc had vegetarian origins... I know our tradition is no longer vegetarian nowadays... but I can't deny the fact that I like those "vegetarian origins".
Does such thing make me think that there can't be a good (or even excellent) Hermeticist who eats meat? No.
To be honest, most of the Hermeticists I know actually eat meat. I don't like that part of them, but such thing doesn't make me blind about how interesting or talented they can be.

I think you missunderstand the "vegetarian mindset" (as to give it a name).

solomon levi
03-28-2012, 10:58 AM
I don't think there is a mindset.
There are different reasons to be vegetarian.

But I think it honest and accurate to say that most of them
are based on not killing animals, as if their life is different than the one life;
and since vegetarians eat plants, the argument naturally goes to animal
life versus plant life.

If there were no death, there would be no life.
Until everything is allowed and loved, we will not know our totality.

The only good reason not to eat animals (or to do anything)
isn't a reason; isn't a right or wrong. In other words, if there is a reason
that justifies one's actions, then there is dualism in that person - there is
non-acceptance of the unreasonable and its complimentary action.
How can we ascribe right and wrong, reason and unreason, to two sides
of one cloth?
In other words, there is nothing right or wrong about who you are or who anyone else is.
There is nothing one can do to be more or less than what we are when we do nothing.
Vegetarian; not vegetarian... whatever.
One doesn't know the totality of oneself through a checklist.
There's nothing to do or not do.

Not eating animals makes one a person who doesn't eat animals. Nothing more.
Eating animals makes one a person who eats animals. Nothing more.

If you think there are additional associations that inherently go along with these acts,
especially spiritual or better than or right and wrong associations, that's just thinking.
Someday, people may think thinking is unnatural or wrong or illusory.
But thinking is just thinking; nothing more.

Sorry if this is off topic or preachy. I decided to just let it come.
Obviously, it doesn't mean that anyone else is wrong or incorrect, but I
see how it could be read that way. What can be said about anything?
Why say it? I don't know.

Nibiru
03-28-2012, 04:51 PM
I suppose "right" or "wrong" excluding thought could lead to a basis of action through feeling/empathy. If it feels "wrong" to you, then in your world it's wrong. If compassion towards sentient beings feels "right" to you, then in your world it's right. I've been trying to do what feels right, while ignoring the social programming that may or may not agree with said feelings. I like/empathize with humans and animals so I choose to not kill or eat meat, in the future I may become aware of the consciousness of plants and at the point I'll decide whether or not it feels "right" for me to continue consuming them..

Salazius
03-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Thank you Zoas, I seemingly encountered some weird people then ... :)

solomon levi
03-29-2012, 01:28 AM
I suppose "right" or "wrong" excluding thought could lead to a basis of action through feeling/empathy. If it feels "wrong" to you, then in your world it's wrong. If compassion towards sentient beings feels "right" to you, then in your world it's right. I've been trying to do what feels right, while ignoring the social programming that may or may not agree with said feelings. I like/empathize with humans and animals so I choose to not kill or eat meat, in the future I may become aware of the consciousness of plants and at the point I'll decide whether or not it feels "right" for me to continue consuming them..

Yes. I think it wise to enquire into our programming, which goes deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole.
At a certain depth, the programming of others and the self-programming are not distinct. The "I" thought
is even a program, and without that there is no empathy distinct from the all. Without "I", there is no "he, she
or it" either. There is no "doing unto others" for all is "done unto ourself". There is no distinction between
loving ourselves, or loving one another, and eating ourselves or eating one another.
I know that sounds really weird or wrong to a human perspective, especially a seperate self perspective.
It's all very personal. There are so many million degrees of better. Being vegetarian is one. Being true to
oneself is one.... But wholeness is not known by degrees. It is just as close to a murderer-rapist as it is
to a saint. We don't like to hear that, but it's true. It's like the fifth dimension not being any more distant
from any part of the fourth. The "I" thought of the saint is the same "I" thought of the sinner, and that
is the deepest belief on which all others hinge.

Sorry for taking another thread there.
It seems I do that alot.
I'll try to refrain.
It's just everything else seems miniscule in comparison.
Why does it matter what the "I" eats?
Kind of a weird thing to focus on IMO.
Eating our way to ...?

III
03-29-2012, 03:22 AM
There are specific blood tests for B12... and they tell you if your levels are normal, low or high.
My levels have always been normal and I've been tested a few times in routine examinations.

I'm not really into violating all the taboos that come to my mind; at least not the ones that involve hurting another animal.

Again, I am really unable to say much on your medical condition, since I've never experienced those problems, nor I know any other person who was in that situation, but I trust your word that what you are saying is accurate. I am unable to make any kind of comment, except listening.


Hi Zoas,

There are specific blood tests for B12... and they tell you if your levels are normal, low or high.

Oh, to have such simple faith...

Serum cobalamin levels are all but useless. They can tell you that you are in severe trouble but not a little trouble and they can not predict "ASYMPTOMATIC" or suffciency of either variety of b12. As the cerebral spinal fluid isn't tested, 2 of 4 b12 deficiency syndromes are completely undetectable by tests. The other two while they are represented in serum cobalamin, the high level is between 900 and 1100pg/ml. However, studies show that people have active b12 responsive symptoms to over 1500pg/ml, calling 1100pg/ml "high" is a really sick joke. It is based entirely on a statistical abstraction. B12 deficiency is endemic in the USA and UK. The statistics of test results are being shifted by this chronic deficiency and the formerly abnormal is today's new normal.

zoas23
03-29-2012, 04:05 AM
Sorry for taking another thread there.
It seems I do that alot.
I'll try to refrain.
It's just everything else seems miniscule in comparison.
Why does it matter what the "I" eats?
Kind of a weird thing to focus on IMO.
Eating our way to ...?

I like your comments.
I can tell you MY point of view, I don't expect you to share it.
I don't think the point of being vegetarian is eating my way to heaven or anything like that. To be honest, I do not spend a lot of time thinking about the fact that I am vegetarian. I don't wake up every day saying: "hello, new morning, I am vegetarian!".

It isn't exactly for me about "doing something good", but about not doing something I consider "wrong".
i.e, I do believe that raping is wrong (pardon me for the strong metaphor)... I never raped a person, but the point is that I don't tell myself every day: "I am a non-rapist, I didn't rape anyone today". I bet you don't do such thing either. It is kinda absurd to say the least.

AND... I do agree with your comments about the "I".
BUT... I do also think we live in societies.

Am I vegetarian because I love animals? Yes... but mostly NO.
I do have the belief that killing animals in our animal slaughterhouses is cruel and violent... and that supporting such thing involves supporting the violence that our society and our culture already has.

I know the "Nazi metaphors" are hateful... but I like explaining it this way: quite often when there's someone talking about Nazism the final conclusion (when the person is mostly sane) is that "Nazism was bad for the Jewish".
And it's true. It was indeed bad for the Jewish (and gays and homosexuals and marxists).
What about the "pure Aryan" "non-Jewish" "straight" people living in Nazi Germany? Did they have a good time living in that nightmare of violence and cruelty?
I don't think so... that place was Hell for everyone... and this includes everyone, not just the Jewish, the gays, the Marxists... Every person living there has been in Hell itself.
I assume you get where I am going.
I would hate to live in a Nazi society, because ALL of us would have a terrible bad time there... it's a culture of hate. Rejecting Nazism isn't about "being nice to the Jewish", but about being "nice to mankind as a whole".

Being vegetarian, for a lot of people, is not about being "kind to the animals"... but about helping to create a more peaceful culture, about rejecting violence, etc...

And, no, what I said doesn't involve the idea that you are either a vegetarian or you are a nazi pscyhcopath who is destroying the chances of having a peaceful society. I don't take things to that silly extreme.

III
03-29-2012, 04:24 AM
When I decided to try being a vegetarian it was because of many vegetarian friends saying much as some have said here. As an Alchemist, how can I not find out experimentally? A day or two after starting I could feel a "difference". "They" said "toxins" and "animal energies" draining from my body. As I found out the very hard way that was 100% pure unadultrated bovine excrement. It was day by day the energy of life, the physical basis of Shakti draining from my body day by day, the very way designed by my creator needing regular renewal to stay alive and be capable of the various divine mystic practices.

It would be quite immoral of me, and many others, to not eat meat as that amounts to slow suicide, quicker for some than for others. Getting holier than thou over meat is laughable.

Interestingly, B12 has the unusual deficiency symptom of causing a B12 specific anorexia wherein one finds flesh, eggs and dairy distasteful, the only foods that contain human usable cobalamin forms. There are at least 18 plant forms of cobalamin that are totally useless to us and zero plant forms we can use. Humans are evolved and/or created to require animal based foods for the unique nutrients they supply.

People come up with all sorts of theories in the absence of knowledge. Nobody even suspected that b12 existed before about 1920 but they were made ill by it's lack for millenia. The "Tantric" meal had "magical" effects which today are recognized as nutrition.

I practice a fully sexual tantric alchemy which works like magic. Some think sex is "wrong" or "evil" despite it being a doorway to divinity. Consider that semen has b12 in it available for those who don't consume meat, 5-10 doses a day for a full days worth of b12.

Fortunately the identified nutrients have vitamin and mineral etc tablets and all the major and identified minor ones are avaialble.

zoas23
03-29-2012, 04:51 AM
Getting holier than thou over meat is laughable.


I am not really interested in the "medical discussion", which I don't think makes any kind of sense (try to find ANY reasonable doctor that says that being vegetarian will shorten your life and I'll find you some 1,000 that simpy accept the fact that vegetarians live longer than omnivores).

The getting holier thing is maybe more interesting: because nobody said such thing here, but it is often the "final message" that most omnivores end up understanding for some reason.
As I've said, I do not think that being vegetarian involves any "good"... I simply said it is a way of avoiding to cause harm (though I prefer to explain it saying that our meat eating society is extremely violent and that I don't think that such violence has any "good" side for anyone). I am not a Saint... and I don't really have the intention of becoming one.

solomon levi
03-30-2012, 02:44 AM
I am not really interested in the "medical discussion", which I don't think makes any kind of sense (try to find ANY reasonable doctor that says that being vegetarian will shorten your life and I'll find you some 1,000 that simpy accept the fact that vegetarians live longer than omnivores).

The getting holier thing is maybe more interesting: because nobody said such thing here, but it is often the "final message" that most omnivores end up understanding for some reason.
As I've said, I do not think that being vegetarian involves any "good"... I simply said it is a way of avoiding to cause harm (though I prefer to explain it saying that our meat eating society is extremely violent and that I don't think that such violence has any "good" side for anyone). I am not a Saint... and I don't really have the intention of becoming one.

Hi zoas23. :)

Without criticising your choice at all, only arguing the point, isn't this still a matter
of scale, to do no harm? I don't think it needs to be pointed out that plants feel
pain or stress, as do metals: they have equivalent "screams" at being tortured.
Can man live in the world and do no harm? Isn't this just drawing lines in the sand
with no objective reference? We identify more with animals, so it's a starting place,
but does it really make a difference? If we can't achieve it totally, what does it matter
partially? Partial leads to measurement - I don't kill humans, I don't kill animals,
I don't even kill plants... how can this not be betterment if we still harm something?
Is it not analogist to "at least I stopped selling crack to kids, but still to adults"?

All these animals are still being killed, so doesn't it equate to you having a clean conscience?
And when the conscience is weighed is it weighed by an animal lover/discriminator?
Is it a point system?

I hope these questions don't come across as antagonistic.
You seem reasonable. I think these questions are reasonable.
I'm sincerely curious if you have good answers.

Have you read Bhagavad Gita?
Krishna telling Arjuna why it's ok to kill/war with his relatives?

Maybe not eating animals is for a better reincarnation.
What about not reincarnating?

My point again being the scale. The scale is infinite.
Betterment is not a path. Even if we stop violence, what next?
Isn't trying to do some little thing really giving up on the big thing,
or ignorance of the big thing?

Saving the world is a great idea/dream, but the world is only 1% of infinity.
We are narrow focussed on this planet, just as being narrow focussed on what we eat,
or whether some injustice is happening to some race or country or whatever.
I don't mean to take any injustice lightly, but it is 1% of 1% of the 1%, isn't it?

My point is, don't these things become insignificant to a person who realises
what they are - more than 1%?
I think so. It's true for me.

MarkostheGnostic
03-30-2012, 02:42 PM
The alchemical model of Mercury, Sulphur, and Salt parallels the yogic Gunas of Sattva, Raja, and Tamas, respectively. Everything, including us are composed of these elements. For many years I wanted only to flee the body in Neoplatonic or yogic fashion. Only with maturity have I realized the importance of 'incarnating,' or 'grounding' the psycho-spiritual elements in the physical. That shift occurred when I began to study Qabalah more closely. Trying to eat only Sattvic and a bit of Rajasic foods according to Yoga philosophy reflects one trying to identify oneself as Spirit and Mind, and a denial of our Physicality. The Mind as Aldous Huxley said is "amphibias." It can identify with the Spirit and the Body. Indeed, the Body will perish, and the lower Mind will likewise perish. The Egyptians hoped that the Spirit (Ka) and the Soul (Ba) would reunite, when found to be pure, as an Akh, to become 'an Osiris,' and be Resurrected. This hope passed into Christianity and into Hermeticism.

A few years ago, my spiritual and intellectual alchemical sensibities, having been thus far relegated to transforming others with an alchemical metaphor for doing counseling/therapy, and drawing this from the Jungian school (the spiritual and intellectual components), finally demanded that the physical dimension be included. That was when I read Mark Stavish, Manfred Junius, and R. A. Bartlett's books. I dug out of storage, or was synchronistically presented with laboratory glassware, and began to dabble in spagyrics. I'm not yet convinced that there is an 'objective' effect of such preparations (or, for that matter, that Reality can even be spoken of as being purely 'objective,' since the subjectivity of a living experiencer is always in the equation), or whether lab work is an exteriorized (ritual) of interior change, but working with my senses, in conjunction with intellect and a spirituality grounded on synchronicity, I am seeing the value of performing these actions, even if its value is purely representational and symbolic.

Meanwhile, Death, Mortification, and Putrefaction, take place as alchemical processes in theory and in fact. We all die, and so do animals. Dying is Mortifying, and Putrefying, unless we are Calcined in a crematorium or on a pyre. These processes occur in our digestive system and bodily fire as well. Yes, I would like to be an ethical vegan, but after decades of struggle, I accept that I am an omnivore. I limit my beef consumption to no more than one free-rage, grass-fed beef burger a month (following hours of doing the lawn, bushes, pool), eggs and a tin of sardines on Sunday, and nitrate/nitrite-free Boar's Head Mesquite Turkey during the work week for protein and Tryptophan. I do eat a few slices of cheese per week. I want to jettison any cruelty from my life and my universe, because I have still not accepted the nature of physical reality and its correlary - biological life - birth and death. As Woody Allen put it about nature, "it's big fish eating little fish," and that is true on every level. I don't relish the competativeness of nature either. I don't want to kill, but warps and scorpions still sting, snakes bite and suffocate, big cats rend. Part of me wants to exist in a non-violent, non-killing, non-suffering existence, while another part of me exists exactly in that very realm. On mushroom trips, I have seen a Rainbow Bridge that I wanted to tread upon, but my physical self remained behind on the bean bag in the dark.

I have struggled for decades with this predicament of experiencing myself as disembodied, either in an Astral Body, or even as a Causal body (which is no body at all, but a dimension). I have attempted to remain celibate while in my 20s, been vegan for years, slept on the floor without a pillow. Asceticism is not The Way, but to avoid the karmic consequences of eating animals (obesity, cardio-vascular disease, colo-rectal cancers, mad cow disease, trichinosis, etc.), I will endeavor to seek balance - physically, mentally, and spiritually, by limiting (if not eliminating) mammals from my diet. Perhaps not vegan, but primarily vegetarian is the goal. I am reminded of that 53rd saying from the Gospel of Thomas: Jesus said, “Blessed is the lion that the man consumes, and the lion becomes man. And cursed is the man that the lion consumes, and the man becomes lion.”

zoas23
03-31-2012, 11:52 AM
Without criticising your choice at all, only arguing the point, isn't this still a matter
of scale, to do no harm? I don't think it needs to be pointed out that plants feel
pain or stress, as do metals: they have equivalent "screams" at being tortured.
Can man live in the world and do no harm? Isn't this just drawing lines in the sand
with no objective reference?

Lines in the sand...

To be honest, I think you are trying to find a philosophical twist to get rid of the evidence that is in front of you... AND I do like philosophy (again, it is even a word coined by a person who was vegetarian!), but I really can't believe that you can stomach or believe your own arguments.

One of the following two photos has a "shock value"... I am sorry about that. Forget the "shock value" of the photo since the shock value isn't an argument:

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/share/18/182/238/1823875_370.jpg http://www.jaguda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/high-heels.jpg

This is high heels standing on a kitten and high heels standing on the sand.

I honestly think that any person who is unable to spot the difference is insane.
I've seen a lot of posts by you, I KNOW you are not insane... and I KNOW you see the difference.

I mean, completely forget the shock value of these photos, I don't care about that. I know that if you were walking in a park where there are kittens and grass... Where would you choose to walk? Jumping from one kitten to the other and crushing all of them? Or walking like a sane person on the grass? It is mostly a rethorical question... the answer is simple.

Then I don't see why EATING becomes the weird exception to the obvious answer.



We identify more with animals, so it's a starting place,
but does it really make a difference? If we can't achieve it totally, what does it matter
partially? Partial leads to measurement - I don't kill humans, I don't kill animals,
I don't even kill plants... how can this not be betterment if we still harm something?
Is it not analogist to "at least I stopped selling crack to kids, but still to adults"?

All these animals are still being killed, so doesn't it equate to you having a clean conscience?


It's not about a "clean conscience"... It is about helping to create a world with less violence. Because of this reason I brought the metaphor about the Nazis... I don't think the number of VICTIMS of your choices when you eat is limited to the animals that died. You are one of the main victims too... you do suffer the same violence, the "cultural violence" if you want to give it a name. By choosing not to eat meat you don't leave this violence behind, you still live in that very same culture... but at least you are doing something to change it.

If the "Nazi example" sounded too extreme, then the City of Juarez in Mexico is another good example: the City became famous because thousands of women are killed simply because of sexism and nobody seems to care much. Would you like to live there surrounded by that culture? Probably not.
Or maybe you would choose to live there, and I bet you would be trying to do ANYTHING you can to stop it, to stop that culture and try to make it become better, more compassionate... and the "victims" of that culture wouldn't be just the women who get murdered, I am sure you would feel like a victim too... a victim of the violence surrounding you.

Nobody has a "perfectly clean conscience"... but doing your best is nice.

III
03-31-2012, 08:02 PM
Hi Zoas23,

I don't believe this is a rigged game. For instance, the old familair "sex is bad", celebate is holier yet the most direct entry points to the divine are hidden in the sex energies. We must have sex to reproduce to maintain lfe. If sex were indeed "less holy" it's a rigged game to make it necessary and an entry point to the divine in non-reprocutive sex. Where as Einstein said that he didn't believe that "God plays dice with the universe" I maintain that God didn't set this up to be a damned if you do danmed if you don't no-win game. If it is, then this thing called "God" is more likely the mad demiurge of the gnostics. The same goes for food. All animal life on Earth absolutely requires methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin for life. It is found in only animal based foods. Eating these foods to maintain life and health comes down to a sacred duty. The system is not insane. While the mad demiurge may be insane, "GOD" is not. I have to say from experience that eating meat can restore proper spiritual functioning. Making a spiritual virtue of a poverty based necessity has long traditions. It's all part of the control game many religions practice.

While we can choose to treat the food animals better or worse, they are always going to die, just as these bodies live and die despite our consciousness going on. The mode of killing the animal is quite important in the Jewish and Muslims religions. For it to be suitable to be eaten it must be killed in a proper spiritual manner. If we were not "meant" to eat meat, our bodies would not require nutrients only avaiable from animal based foods. The game is not crooked and God is not insane.

zoas23
03-31-2012, 10:11 PM
Hi Zoas23,
I don't believe this is a rigged game. For instance, the old familair "sex is bad", celebate is holier yet the most direct entry points to the divine are hidden in the sex energies.

I don't believe that sex is bad. I even think that celibacy leads to terrible places.
We all know that a lot of Roman Catholic priests end up their days becoming child abusers. It is my belief that such thing wouldn't happen if they would have been allowed to have a sane life.
Valentinus, the Gnostic, also had similar views.

Anyway... I don't really care for the medical debate, but if you do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Longevity

Again, the life expectancy for an average vegetarian is HIGHER than the life expectancy for an average omnivore. I don't really need to bring God or the Demiurge to the "medical debate" as to figure out that the obvious conclusion is that a vegetarian diet is, indeed, healthy.

1. Is being vegetarian better for the heart? YES... source: http://www.thedietchannel.com/is-vegeterian-diet-better-for-heart
2. Are vegetarians less likely to suffer type 2 Diabetes? YES... source: http://www.diabetescauses.net/type-2-diabetes
3. Are vegetarians less likely to suffer hypertension? YES... source: http://www.livestrong.com/article/252668-hypertension-a-meatless-diet/
4. Are vegetarians less likely to have Ulcers and going vegetarian is one of the suggested treatments for healing an ulcer? YES.... source: http://www.ulcer-cure.com/Treatments/ulcer-diet.php?sl=4
5. Are vegetarians by far less likely to suffer the most typical cancers? YES... source: http://onlinehealthnews.org/2008/12/a-vegetarian-diet-creating-a-healthy-digestive-system/
6. Do average vegetarians live longer than average meat eaters? YES... source: http://www.healingcancernaturally.com/vegetarians-live-longer.html / http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/13/benefits-of-vegetarianism_n_112431.html

Again... God must be really mad at vegetarians, since it's obviously so "unhealthy" to be one.

And, anyway, I am not really interested in the "medical debate".

Nibiru
03-31-2012, 11:35 PM
I haven't eaten meat since around the age of 9, so about 25 years now. I am very rarely sick, and on average I am healthier than the majority of my friends who do eat meat. I do know of friends who did become ill after several months of being vegetarian, so I can agree that it may be unhealthy for some people but it probabally depends on the individual. From my understanding the majority of the world consumes meat, but its usually the smaller yet more spiritually active social sects that do practice vegetarianism. I've always felt that I was the one practicing the "TABOO" by expressing my choice to not eat meat in a society of omnivores.


All of that said, I would like to obtain some of these B12 suppliments that III has been speaking of as I assume they would be beneficial to vegetarians and meat eaters alike. I've also heard of animals transmuting one mineral into another to provide their body's with the proper nutrition, perhaps some vegetarians are capable of this as well. I remember reading a quote from a famous yogi speaking on nutrition and it was along the lines of it doesn't matter what you eat, only your mind-state/beliefs while you are eating.

As far as being unable to eat/harm ourselves from a nonduilistic perspective, I would have to agree from a macro/philosophical view of reality. Though from my current fragmented experience of reality I still experience pain, fear, grief, sorrow, etc. Being that I do empathize with animals, humans, and other sentient beings in my current reality; I choose to show compassion when I am able. Realizing that I am all beings and all beings are me; why would I want to cause terror, grief or pain to myself? This would be similar to spiritual/philosophical asceticism from a unified/nonduelistic prospective, IMO.

PS. Sorry for spelling/grammar errors. My computers zapped so I'm having to use a tablet.

Awani
04-01-2012, 10:05 AM
For instance, the old familair "sex is bad", celebate is holier yet the most direct entry points to the divine are hidden in the sex energies.

There are cases where the whole point is to withhold these divine sex energies. One example I have had experience directly is from the Shipibo in Peru. They abstain from sex during the process of initiation with ayahuasca in order to achieve a higher effect when being initiated.

There is a bit about sex related energies in this area: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/forumdisplay.php?79-Spiritus-Vitae

:cool:

Andro
04-01-2012, 10:35 AM
[...] the Shipibo in Peru. They abstain from sex during the process of initiation [...]

Just curious (in relation to this thread)... Are the Peruvian Shamans normally vegetarians?

Awani
04-01-2012, 10:58 AM
They eat chicken and vegetarian fish (fish that only eat plants). But they use different diets depending on what process they are going through (some diets can last for many years, some for months or weeks). In a way their body is an alchemical furnace. Anyway at times they eat at length only some sort of rice or certain vegetables. They always warn about red meat.

:cool:

solomon levi
04-01-2012, 11:06 AM
Lines in the sand...

To be honest, I think you are trying to find a philosophical twist to get rid of the evidence that is in front of you... AND I do like philosophy (again, it is even a word coined by a person who was vegetarian!), but I really can't believe that you can stomach or believe your own arguments.

One of the following two photos has a "shock value"... I am sorry about that. Forget the "shock value" of the photo since the shock value isn't an argument:

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/share/18/182/238/1823875_370.jpg http://www.jaguda.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/high-heels.jpg

This is high heels standing on a kitten and high heels standing on the sand.

I honestly think that any person who is unable to spot the difference is insane.
I've seen a lot of posts by you, I KNOW you are not insane... and I KNOW you see the difference.

I mean, completely forget the shock value of these photos, I don't care about that. I know that if you were walking in a park where there are kittens and grass... Where would you choose to walk? Jumping from one kitten to the other and crushing all of them? Or walking like a sane person on the grass? It is mostly a rethorical question... the answer is simple.

Then I don't see why EATING becomes the weird exception to the obvious answer.



It's not about a "clean conscience"... It is about helping to create a world with less violence. Because of this reason I brought the metaphor about the Nazis... I don't think the number of VICTIMS of your choices when you eat is limited to the animals that died. You are one of the main victims too... you do suffer the same violence, the "cultural violence" if you want to give it a name. By choosing not to eat meat you don't leave this violence behind, you still live in that very same culture... but at least you are doing something to change it.

If the "Nazi example" sounded too extreme, then the City of Juarez in Mexico is another good example: the City became famous because thousands of women are killed simply because of sexism and nobody seems to care much. Would you like to live there surrounded by that culture? Probably not.
Or maybe you would choose to live there, and I bet you would be trying to do ANYTHING you can to stop it, to stop that culture and try to make it become better, more compassionate... and the "victims" of that culture wouldn't be just the women who get murdered, I am sure you would feel like a victim too... a victim of the violence surrounding you.

Nobody has a "perfectly clean conscience"... but doing your best is nice.

Thank you zoas23. :)
These are very clean and objective arguments.
I really, really appreciate that.
It allows us to really isolate the essence.

That there exists a difference between cats and grass, or eating animals
and eating plants, I recognise. But that one is right or more right than the other -
this is a matter of training. We are trained not to walk on the flower garden,
but the grass is ok. This is not a sign of intelligence. There are children who
are trained to drown cats or shoot animals without a care.
Most people are trained to see animals as more human than plants and therefore
less deserving of affection.
We walk on grass, not because it is ok, or not painful to grass, but because it is
convenient for us to do so.

To not injure animals is indeed a sign of our humanity, but not of our divinity.
I see that as the difference we are dancing about.

From what I have seen, "returning" or remembering Unity is not something one does
by being better or improving the human. The human is the evolution of consciousness,
and the Divine or Unity is the origin of it. In some ways, the head bites the tail. It is the
perfection of the human which is also its undoing. It is a balance and a peace - a simplicity.
Being concerned with what we eat (or a million other improvements) is not simple.
Choosing this but not that (plant but not animal, or vice versa) cannot bring about the
requisite state of equilibrium which allows us to perceive our Unity/Divinity.

It is not a bettering or healing or fixing what is wrong, but a transcending of right and
wrong - they (the opposites) find balance in their neuter or quintessence, which is not of
this world, but the world which proceeded this one, though they exist parallel and simultaneously
and not linearly and independantly, which explains how we are spirit, soul and body. Yet
body does not make the spirit. As body we appear similar to animals. But man is microcosm,
similar to macrocosm.

So back to your point - the majority of people will see the difference between cats and grass, because
they are animals (they identify with individual existences). Only a few will see my point between man
and microcosm (truly see it) because they are spirit. Does the spirit care what the body eats?
Is the spirit sullied by the body/bodies/food?

Does less violence = more spirit? Or is spirit never more or less?

Yes, if some huge injustice is happening in my immediate surroundings, I would probably do
something. But I don't stop my neighbors from raising cattle. Do you?
Or from walking on the lawn.

My solution is not to take this to the extreme of not killing oxygen by not breathing, or allowing
crabs to live in one's pubic area, or anything else like that, which is where vegetarianism must
lead if the idea behind it (no violence/killing) is to be perfected. As I said, we must kill something
if we are to live. The Stoics would say that to try to change things that are beyond our ability to
change is to welcome grief - that it would be unreasonable and thus not in nature with the logos.

Choosing our diet is working mass to mass, body to body. If you want to change your body by not
eating animals, that's fine. But it will still die just like all bodies die, and you will look back or
whatever you want to call it, and see that everything you changed or tried to change mass to mass,
trying to make the world a better place, means nothing because that world doesn't exist for you
anymore.
If one doesn't realise something more than body or soul, (i.e. spirit) that one will be reincarnated.
If that's one's aim, then cool. It's not mine.
The created world can be uncreated, just as the self can be deconstructed.
This is IMO the only way. Creating a world with less X (violence, whatever) or more X
is just believing that the world and the self are real when they are clearly impermanent.
What does it mean to change the impermanent? You think that is doing something?
In what time frame? My time frame is very, very large - not human.
I'm in the world, but not of the world. So what does changing the world mean to me?
Isn't it true for all, whether they know it or not?
No one can make a permanent world of the four elements.
Whatever change one can make, the time frame is very small, relatively speaking.
For me, this would be a waste of effort and attention - trying to preserve bodies
that are temporal by nature. Why not place that attention and effort on spirit?

Awani
04-01-2012, 11:20 AM
...which is where vegetarianism must lead if the idea behind it (no violence/killing) is to be perfected...

I think the only reason to be vegetarian should be that if you can't kill it yourself don't eat it... but I guess tomatos are killed when plucked... I can't get rid of the feeling that plants likes when we eat them...


Why not place that attention and effort on spirit?

In a way by not partaking in eating animals the spirit enters a different mindset helpful to some... it does change perspective. It is the same when I stopped drinking alcohol many years ago. It changes perspective. The world behaves different around you. It is much easier to be vegetarian (some areas even fashionable) compared to being a non-drinker, which is still very in your face. You always get the other person wondering why, or their own guilt for drinking too much. Diets create a state of mind... so it is attention to spirit... only with the right state of mind can you connect with the spirit?

I'm not trying to convert anyone, but most things are best when tried, evaluated... then embraced or discarded. This is how I came to stop drinking and eating meat.

:cool:

Ghislain
04-01-2012, 11:47 AM
As you said in your post Zoas23, the picture I post below is not for the purpose of shock but to make a point.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oYIgRNpSwzE/SX4u52hvarI/AAAAAAAAA68/1VCVhgE1BFg/s400/Roadkill+Cat+ThierryD.jpg

How many people had to have run over that poor animal to bring it to that state?

If you saw that would you stop and scrape it up to place it in a more dignified space?

I undestand your point, but in general I have to agree with Solomon.

Survival is all part of being here...if the world was perfect there would not be muggers and
thieves, sex attackers or politicians, organised crime or estate agents.

If you feel you are making a difference then that is all that matters.

vive la différence

Ghislain

Edit: I was vegitarian for about four years...I still wore leather. I only eat chicken now...and vegetables :)

solomon levi
04-01-2012, 12:16 PM
I think the only reason to be vegetarian should be that if you can't kill it yourself don't eat it... but I guess tomatos are killed when plucked... I can't get rid of the feeling that plants likes when we eat them...

In a way by not partaking in eating animals the spirit enters a different mindset helpful to some... it does change perspective. It is the same when I stopped drinking alcohol many years ago. It changes perspective. The world behaves different around you. It is much easier to be vegetarian (some areas even fashionable) compared to being a non-drinker, which is still very in your face. You always get the other person wondering why, or their own guilt for drinking too much. Diets create a state of mind... so it is attention to spirit... only with the right state of mind can you connect with the spirit?

I'm not trying to convert anyone, but most things are best when tried, evaluated... then embraced or discarded. This is how I came to stop drinking and eating meat.

:cool:

plants like it when we eat them...
perhaps. There have also been human sacrifices where the human was honored
and smiling on his/her way to death.

One very awesome thing about plants is that they can heal us, and I don't
even mean by eating them. One can dream with plant spirits and they can do
amazing things, healing psychological and physical trauma. A wonderful book is
Plant Spirit Medicine:
http://www.plantspiritmedicine.org/
http://www.amazon.com/Plant-Spirit-Medicine-Healing-Plants/dp/1893183114

I mention that because plants don't only help people who don't eat them.
Honoring life isn't proven or demonstrated by not eating it, or even
not killing it. Being equal to it is one way of honoring life. Knowing that we too
will die and be food for worms or something...

I've been vegetarian before, for the record.

For me, if a person cannot do a thing, ever, as if it is so sacriligious or
so tempting, or whatever, it owns them. This "works" for some people -
never touch a drop again, never walk into a casino again...
But that isn't spiritual or whole or healthy. It is severe avoidance which empowers
what we avoid. Moderation in all things... the middle way.
I don't like rules. Rules for life... what an oxymoron.
Rules, discipline, excluding something... by definition these cannot lead
to wholeness. What is spirituality/spirit without wholeness? Religion.

Awani
04-01-2012, 03:30 PM
It is severe avoidance which empowers what we avoid.

In my case it takes 0 % effort. I often say it is as easy for me to avoid drinking beer as it is for anyone else to avoid eating their own puke. Usually gets my point across. It has to do with will. Do what you want. I feel it empowers... but in general terms I agree with you.

I never see it as a rule... but the path of my own will... sometimes new paths are taken, but now I am walking this one... and one reason I like it so much is because most of the world do eat meat and drink alcohol, this gives me an alternative perception.

:cool:

III
04-01-2012, 08:57 PM
I think the only reason to be vegetarian should be that if you can't kill it yourself don't eat it... but I guess tomatos are killed when plucked... I can't get rid of the feeling that plants likes when we eat them...



In a way by not partaking in eating animals the spirit enters a different mindset helpful to some... it does change perspective. It is the same when I stopped drinking alcohol many years ago. It changes perspective. The world behaves different around you. It is much easier to be vegetarian (some areas even fashionable) compared to being a non-drinker, which is still very in your face. You always get the other person wondering why, or their own guilt for drinking too much. Diets create a state of mind... so it is attention to spirit... only with the right state of mind can you connect with the spirit?

I'm not trying to convert anyone, but most things are best when tried, evaluated... then embraced or discarded. This is how I came to stop drinking and eating meat.

:cool:

think the only reason to be vegetarian should be that if you can't kill it yourself don't eat it... but I guess tomatos are killed when plucked... I can't get rid of the feeling that plants likes when we eat them...

I went through this process myself, having to come to that realization of the willingness to kill and clean it myself if needed.

The world behaves different around you.

This of course is why changing the only thing we can actually change, ourselves, results in the changes we perceive in the world and how it behaves towards us. I grew up as a bully target, having been well trained by my mother to be such. As soon as I changed my attitude, that if the person physically attacked me, he was going to be injured or killed if needed to prevent him from damaging me or others. I have not been attacked in about 40 years since deciding that. What a huge and sudden change. It was like something clicked over and there was a sudden change of state. When I became vegetarian, I could feel a change within 24 hours. Unfortunately the change I felt was life force draining from my body day by day until it disabled me and made be very ill for 20 years almost killing me during my 24 years of being a vegetarian.

I can't get rid of the feeling that plants likes when we eat them...

Many of the seeds, like tomato seeds, are not digested and are designed to be spread arouind by being pasased through the intestines of animals. By eating tomatoes we are furthering their reproductive aims. The fruits are attractive to be eaten. The leaves have belladonna alkaloids and are poison and bitter, the fruits are delicious.


It is much easier to be vegetarian (some areas even fashionable) compared to being a non-drinker, which is still very in your face. You always get the other person wondering why, or their own guilt for drinking too much. Diets create a state of mind... so it is attention to spirit... only with the right state of mind can you connect with the spirit?

I was talking to an alcoholic some years back and mentioned I went to a bunch of conferences each year with open bars. I went to one in Atlanta and they had fresh peach daquiris as a featured drink. He asked me how could I go there and have the will power to not drink too much. I told him it took no will power at all, that I had no desire for "more" and besides, it was fattening and I wanted to have desert that night.

The other person is always wondering why. I trigger people's fears and uncertainties all over the place. Being a vegetarian never did that, just the same family memebers over and over. Living in Utah, people wonder why I drink wine or beer, in moderation. Alcohol is not consumed by "good" Mormons. However, they tend to put tea or coffe in the "gateway drug" category and many equate tea/coffee to heroin or cocaine morally.

zoas23
04-01-2012, 09:00 PM
Thank you zoas23. :)
To not injure animals is indeed a sign of our humanity, but not of our divinity.
I see that as the difference we are dancing about.

Reading other threads I came to the idea that you are probably familiar with the jargon of Qabalah.
I get what you are saying, it does mostly sound like: "think about the Ain Soph! Your concerns are too related to Malkuth!"...

And you would be right.

However... No tree grows without roots... don't climb a tree that has no roots, because it will fall down.
Take this words as something that is not just related to "vegetarianism", but related to mostly everything.

Unlike Galileo, Griordano Bruno decided to face death simply because he thought it was important for him not to deny the fact that the earth spins around the sun and not the other way (among other issues).
I know where you came from, I know where you are going, but don't forget where you are.

III
04-01-2012, 09:20 PM
plants like it when we eat them...
perhaps. There have also been human sacrifices where the human was honored
and smiling on his/her way to death.

One very awesome thing about plants is that they can heal us, and I don't
even mean by eating them. One can dream with plant spirits and they can do
amazing things, healing psychological and physical trauma. A wonderful book is
Plant Spirit Medicine:
http://www.plantspiritmedicine.org/
http://www.amazon.com/Plant-Spirit-Medicine-Healing-Plants/dp/1893183114

I mention that because plants don't only help people who don't eat them.
Honoring life isn't proven or demonstrated by not eating it, or even
not killing it. Being equal to it is one way of honoring life. Knowing that we too
will die and be food for worms or something...

I've been vegetarian before, for the record.

For me, if a person cannot do a thing, ever, as if it is so sacriligious or
so tempting, or whatever, it owns them. This "works" for some people -
never touch a drop again, never walk into a casino again...
But that isn't spiritual or whole or healthy. It is severe avoidance which empowers
what we avoid. Moderation in all things... the middle way.
I don't like rules. Rules for life... what an oxymoron.
Rules, discipline, excluding something... by definition these cannot lead
to wholeness. What is spirituality/spirit without wholeness? Religion.


For me, if a person cannot do a thing, ever, as if it is so sacriligious or so tempting, or whatever, it owns them.

EXACTLY. The process of of Alchemy in which I am involved requires purification, working through all the automations, fears, taboos and the like to become conscious of sefl and ones thoughts and responses. If I choose to have a glass of wine with my steak, onions, steamed potato, squash, salad, chard etc, my 90% vegetable dinner, it is a conscious choice. I have tried the alternatives and found taboos to be generally just that, uncousious taboos. Having to drink that wine and fearing to drink the wine or having rules against drinking it are equally of the person. They are a pre-emptive unconscious decision. An interesting challange EJ Gold suggests is that when you go out to dinner with frineds or family, order and eat dessert first. Watch the consternation. Then answer when asked about it "I'm a conscious adult. I can have my dessert whenever I want it" or something of the sort. You will find out quickly who is conscious in the group and who is a slave to automations within themselves.

This "works" for some people -
never touch a drop again, never walk into a casino again...
But that isn't spiritual or whole or healthy. It is severe avoidance which empowers
what we avoid. Moderation in all things... the middle way.
I don't like rules. Rules for life... what an oxymoron.
Rules, discipline, excluding something... by definition these cannot lead
to wholeness. What is spirituality/spirit without wholeness? Religion

Eggs Acktly.

III
04-01-2012, 09:41 PM
As you said in your post Zoas23, the picture I post below is not for the purpose of shock but to make a point.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oYIgRNpSwzE/SX4u52hvarI/AAAAAAAAA68/1VCVhgE1BFg/s400/Roadkill+Cat+ThierryD.jpg

How many people had to have run over that poor animal to bring it to that state?

If you saw that would you stop and scrape it up to place it in a more dignified space?

I undestand your point, but in general I have to agree with Solomon.

Survival is all part of being here...if the world was perfect there would not be muggers and
thieves, sex attackers or politicians, organised crime or estate agents.

If you feel you are making a difference then that is all that matters.

vive la différence

Ghislain

Edit: I was vegitarian for about four years...I still wore leather. I only eat chicken now...and vegetables :)


Survival is all part of being here...if the world was perfect there would not be muggers and
thieves, sex attackers or politicians, organised crime or estate agents.

If one doesn't survive, no alchemy is going to be performed. In this recurrent life, I remember lots of times I didn't make it. I have died in many many ways including far more auto accidents than I would have suspected from my driving record in this variant on life in which I survived to this point. Maybe I'm just not very good at this suvival game. It sure has taken me a lot of tries to make it to 64. Being a vegetarian for any reason was a fatal flaw for me. I had to solve that to survive. I had to let go of the idea that I "should" be a vegetarian. I had to let go of the taboos.

In the Japanese prison labor camps of solders in WW2, at one camp the doctor improsioned there had everybody collecting bugs and worms for their stew. Everyboy was welcome to a couple of spoons of the mix each day. Those who ate it generally survived. Those who were unable to eat it, all died, of b12 deficiency. Survival often requires the overcoming of taboos.

solomon levi
04-01-2012, 10:56 PM
However... No tree grows without roots... don't climb a tree that has no roots, because it will fall down.
Take this words as something that is not just related to "vegetarianism", but related to mostly everything.


But this tree is upside down with roots in heaven.

zoas23
04-02-2012, 01:09 AM
But this tree is upside down with roots in heaven.

Interesting. I don't see it that way at all.

Maybe it is not that our visions about "vegetarianism" don't match, but our whole vision of the cosmos doesn't.

My vision is that if you wanna jump so high, you better have a strong ground below your feet... or you'll be only kicking the air.
You asked me if I could eat my way to Heaven. I said no.
However, I am in Earth... and for sure that I have to eat food, for the spirit alone isn't food for the "Guph" or body.
In this same way I don't think we can simply state that we do no longer belong to Assiah and try to behave as some sort of creatures of the Atziluth if we can't even take care of Malkuth and its troubles.

Our perceptions are very different, I can agree with your "divine goals" and they are beautiful, but I don't think you will arrive there is you don't take care of your own "human" side... and even before your human side, your own animal side.

zoas23
04-02-2012, 01:15 AM
Survival is all part of being here...if the world was perfect there would not be muggers and
thieves, sex attackers or politicians, organised crime or estate agents.

If you feel you are making a difference then that is all that matters.

I agree witht the idea that if the world was perfect there would be no thieves, sex attackers, etc...

I don't agree with the point of view that says: "the world isn't perfect, but that's not my problem because I am divine and beyond good and evil".

My own vision is that the mundane side of life has to be integrated into the sacred side of life... not put aside with the feeling that we are better than that.

solomon levi
04-02-2012, 05:55 AM
Hi zoas23.

The upside down tree is a known symbol/teaching, not my own, just in case you
are unfamiliar with it. It also would make no sense that the material world is the
root and the spiritual world is the fruit or leaves. I don't think anyone would argue
against the material being temporal and spirit being eternal, and the analogy of the
tree with the root going on and the fruit and leaves being born and dying each year.
In alchemy and hermeticism, the root/radix/radix mundi is not a symbol of the physical.
"Store your treasure in heaven..." etc.

So please don't argue that as if I am unrealistic. Any reasonable person will agree
that changing the million minutiae of what's wrong with the world is unrealistic.
Please name one spiritual tradition that suggests that we do that. Or better, name any
person who has accomplished that. It doesn't exist. So why does spirituality exist?
Because it has nothing to do with making the earth or the body a perfect place.

I have presented this argument already. You didn't present evidence against it -
just your belief/opinion.

"the world isn't perfect, but that's not my problem because I am divine and beyond good and evil".

I didn't say "I". You claim to understand me, but you show that you don't.
Much of what you would call the world is actually your mind/psychological.
It is psychological to imagine people stepping on kittens.
And if you don't live in an area where violence is a problem, even that is psychological.
I know you'll disagree with that, but I am talking about being present and dealing with
what is in one's immediate environment. The news that tells you what is going on in
other areas of the world, while it may be true, is still psychological.
To really have a conversation, we would have to eliminate the psychological and
theoretical and hypothetical and imaginary and deal with the first hand right now world.
Until you learn to distinguish between psychological and actual, no doubt you will
disagree with me. Until then, my description will be psychological to you, as yours is
to me.

Ghislain
04-02-2012, 07:49 AM
Sol

I think you have probably covered all that I have written below, but as I had already written it before
reading yours I shall post anyhow :)

Zoas23

I agree with you to a point; often asking myself who I am fooling when knowing that bad things
happen and yet do nothing to stop it, accepting it as the norm in apathy.

I used to be a letter writer...always writing to my MP or local council member trying to put the world
to rights, but gave up after realising the replies are all the same...

"Thank you for your letter I have passed it on to the correct office”, then banking on ones apathy not
to take it any further. You see they also take that stance of:...how much can I do, what difference
can I make, I tried that before and it didn't work, why should it always be my responsibility, do I
want to rock the boat, etc...

I also reflect on how much I place myself above or below things...I think this is a trait we all possess
to some extent; pigeon-holing ourselves into our slot in the world; not good enough for this and better
than that.

Is anyone now saying, "I don't"? Then look a little deeper.

Do I think I am "less than this" or "better than that" or is it just apathy? "That’s about how much
effort I am willing to put in so I have to accept things as they are".

I do not believe people are beyond good and evil as these don’t exist, other than in the mind
of the beholder.

I have said to my boys..."what is the difference between you and a millionaire", and my answer is,
"it is just the way you and they think". or maybe they are already millionaires and haven’t told me :(

I could use the same argument for the starving people all over the world...could I not?

or the bullied that III mentioned earlier.

How does a vegetarian think?

Sorry if that seemed a little fragmented, but it goes to show that if there is one thing that is going
to change the world, it has to be a whole change and unification of perspective...but that
perspective needs to allow for and tolerate differences. Good luck with that one :)

I think by writing this I realise myself that the whole beauty of life is its differences. Some will label
these good or bad, but imagine a world without them :shudders: It would be the closest to not
existing as one could come.

If the world was perfect then what would be the point? We would be locked in a prison of
perfection.

Ghislain

Andro
04-02-2012, 08:03 AM
We would be locked in a prison of perfection.

Ironically, it may well be exactly what 'THEY' are aiming for :)

It is, however, not going to happen :p

Even the machines from the Matrix movie lost entire crops of human batteries because they created a 'perfect' world in an earlier Virtual Reality attempt.

It was this failure that led them (the machines) to create the Matrix as we know it, both from the movie and from the world we live in.

Quoth myself from years ago:

"Perfection is absolute mediocrity."

:cool:

solomon levi
04-02-2012, 09:33 AM
Zoas23 has stated something to the effect that he wasn't aiming for perfection.
"Nobody has a "perfectly clean conscience"... but doing your best is nice."

Agreeing with Androgynus, I don't think we need to worry about perfection
ever happening here. I don't know anyone who is even striving for perfection.
But this world is full of people striving for betterment and improvement which
only exists psychologically through the mind relating to a past - the past being
a reference point which keeps one from the present which always full (fulfilled).
And it is totally possible to eat meat in the present, without psychologically
bringing up ideas of guilt or harm or injustice or whatever.

And to imagine that I am not speaking from experience, that I am being idealistic
and unreal... the word "insane" was even used. And then to say "I know where you
came from, I know where you are going, but don't forget where you are."...

I'm all about where I am, and there are no suffering animals here. Would you like me to
imagine them? That would make me more human? more sane/realistic/grounded?
This is really backwards.

Awani
04-02-2012, 10:48 AM
However, they tend to put tea or coffe in the "gateway drug" category and many equate tea/coffee to heroin or cocaine morally.

They are right in a way. Coffee/caffeine and heroin are equally addictive. I stay away from both, but with the caffeine it did take a lot of effort because it is so highly addictive. This is the main reason why I wanted to stop because I didn't like being under the control of a substance. I almost fell ill when not getting my dose every day. In this case there is no moderation that works. Either you are on it, or you are not. Or so it was for me.

From my own experience, to keep with this thread, I think that diets should be an important issue for any true seeker of any kind. The body is not separate from the spirit. There is a connection (if not we would all OBE daily), and diets have an effect on our state of mind... sometimes even on our perception. Diets are a tool and an inspiration and sometimes a way to keep focus on a goal; it takes concentration to stick to a certain diet for example. So I do think that seekers of the past were more veggie than seekers of today, and I think Pythagoras had a big influence on many of them.


The Pythagoreans were well-known in antiquity for their vegetarianism, which they practised for religious, ethical and ascetic reasons, in particular the idea of metempsychosis – the transmigration of souls into the bodies of other animals. "Pythagorean diet" was a common name for the abstention from eating meat and fish, until the coining of "vegetarian" in the nineteenth century.- source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism#Vegetarianism)

:cool:

zoas23
04-02-2012, 11:07 PM
Hi zoas23.
The upside down tree is a known symbol/teaching, not my own, just in case you
are unfamiliar with it. It also would make no sense that the material world is the
root and the spiritual world is the fruit or leaves. I don't think anyone would argue
against the material being temporal and spirit being eternal, and the analogy of the
tree with the root going on and the fruit and leaves being born and dying each year.
In alchemy and hermeticism, the root/radix/radix mundi is not a symbol of the physical.
"Store your treasure in heaven..." etc.

It is funny. this has gone completely off topic and yet the "off topic" side became more interesting than the topic (the "vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian" threads have a tendency to finish in a silly "it's good to be vegetarian" vs. "it's evil to be vegetarian" that lasts forver till one of the parts gets bored).

First of all, pardon me if you think I give a bad portrait of your ideas. It's not my intention.
It is also true that I have a hard time trying to understand your ideas.



So please don't argue that as if I am unrealistic.

There's very few philosophies that can be called "unrealistic". You are indeed realistic in your ow way.
I think you are placing almost the whole weight of the real on the spiritual world and almost nothing on the material world. That's O.K. and not "unrealistic".
BUT even Plato's allegory of the cave involved a man who got out of the material world (cave) and saw the spiritual world, but then he returned to the cave to help others.



Any reasonable person will agree that changing the million minutiae of what's wrong with the world is unrealistic. Please name one spiritual tradition that suggests that we do that. Or better, name any
person who has accomplished that. It doesn't exist. So why does spirituality exist?
Because it has nothing to do with making the earth or the body a perfect place.

This and nothing else is exactly the core of our disagreement.
I do not think it is possible for a signle person to make the WHOLE wolrd perfect in every detail.
However, I really don't know any western esoteric tradition that DOESN'T suggest we should try to do our best here in this touchable material world. The idea of "Immanentize the eschaton" isn't my invention.
There are also a lot of western tradition in which doing your best to improve the material world isn't just a suggestiong, but also a "duty" or an "obligation" (this doesn't translate into a "you have to be vegetarian").
The only western traditions I can think of that don't follow this ideal would be very modern and recent ones (like LaVey's Satanism or Peter Carroll's Chaos Magick).

I won't start mentioning traditions that support this idea, because if I made a list of all the western traditions I can think about, I'll probably have to say "all of the above" when I finish listing them.

You mentioned the Baghavad Gita before, I have read it. I still feel uneasy talking about Asian traditions and I try not to do it due to my ignorance on the subject (I really need to improve this situation, since my sons will be part-Asian because of their mother... and I feel it will be my duty to be able to speak to them about Asian culture).



"the world isn't perfect, but that's not my problem because I am divine and beyond good and evil".

I didn't say "I". You claim to understand me, but you show that you don't.
Much of what you would call the world is actually your mind/psychological.
It is psychological to imagine people stepping on kittens.
And if you don't live in an area where violence is a problem, even that is psychological.
I know you'll disagree with that, but I am talking about being present and dealing with
what is in one's immediate environment.

I don't disagree with the idea that it is psychological and that we have psychological perceptions.
The Psyche is nothing but the soul (the Nepesh, not the Ruach).



Until you learn to distinguish between psychological and actual, no doubt you will
disagree with me. Until then, my description will be psychological to you, as yours is
to me.

Maybe our "cosmology" isn't quite different, but our views about what we are meant to do with it are in opposition.

To bring the old allegory again, I do believe that "returning to the cave" is indeed a duty, an olbigation.
And that whilst offering "spiritual knowledge" is perfect, we never completely leave the cave whilst we have a physical body... and that even if it's true that in the material cave people has spiritual thirst, it is also true that there's physical hunger too and our bodies die if we don't eat, just like anyone else's body does.

The cave may not be the Primum Mobile, but such thing doesn't mean that it is so "low" or "so Assiah", etc that we shouldn't care about it or try to improve the way in which we all spend our time there.

III
04-03-2012, 03:18 AM
They are right in a way. Coffee/caffeine and heroin are equally addictive. I stay away from both, but with the caffeine it did take a lot of effort because it is so highly addictive. This is the main reason why I wanted to stop because I didn't like being under the control of a substance. I almost fell ill when not getting my dose every day. In this case there is no moderation that works. Either you are on it, or you are not. Or so it was for me.


From my own experience, to keep with this thread, I think that diets should be an important issue for any true seeker of any kind. The body is not separate from the spirit. There is a connection (if not we would all OBE daily), and diets have an effect on our state of mind... sometimes even on our perception. Diets are a tool and an inspiration and sometimes a way to keep focus on a goal; it takes concentration to stick to a certain diet for example. So I do think that seekers of the past were more veggie than seekers of today, and I think Pythagoras had a big influence on many of them.


:cool:

Hi Dev,

Coffee/caffeine and heroin are equally addictive

So an iced tea at McD's inevitably leads to mainlining heroin? NOT. No gateway drug there. Caffeine has it's attractions. However, withdrawal phenomina is mostly a headache of a few hours on the first day. Caffeine can be tapered to zero in 3-4 days without headache. I am on morphine for pain. If I go into morphine withdrawal cold turkey I will have reasonably miserable flu like experience for about 5 days solid. Morphine can be tapered with equal comfort to a 4 day taper from caffeine in a 6 week taper. So accomodation wise morphine is far worse. Cocaine doesn't accomodate in the body in the same way as morphine. And valium and other benzos are far far worse than opioids. As far as "addictability" goes, heroin is in a class by itself. It is fat soluable and when injected bypassses a first pass through the liver and goes straight to the brain giving a unique experience in the opioid field. The heroin breaks down in the liver to morphine. There is no comparison at all of heroin to caffeine.



From my own experience, to keep with this thread, I think that diets should be an important issue for any true seeker of any kind. The body is not separate from the spirit


I would have to agree, very important issue. I'm not an ascetic trying to prove that I can be totally indifferent to what I eat. I'm not even out to play fear factor games with food. Many spiritual systems place importance on the health and functionality of the person. Eating for the body, mind and spirit to function fully, including spiritual, metaphysical and alchemical functioning, can depend upon what we eat.



I stay away from both, but with the caffeine it did take a lot of effort because it is so highly addictive. This is the main reason why I wanted to stop because I didn't like being under the control of a substance. I almost fell ill when not getting my dose every day. In this case there is no moderation that works. Either you are on it, or you are not. Or so it was for me.


I have no problem using morphine in moderation. I take it according to directions and have for almost 12 years now. Addiction is a psychological condition and does not require a drug that causes accomodation. Morphine is one of the most benign gentle on the body medications I've ever taken. I also drink a mug of coffee almost always once a day, fresh ground french roast with sugar and heavy cream. If I can't have it that way I don't drink it. I'd rather have a cup of tea. I live my life in moderation. I consider the sugar and cream to be more of a dietary problem than the coffee itself. Caffeine does potentiate the pain relieveing qualities of morphine. I just can't agree that it is as black and white as "Either you are on it, or you are not". It's shades of grey. The balance of the diet as a whole is more important than any specific foods. Getting horribly fat isn;t a good idea. Anorexia isn't either. Moderation in many ways.



Dairy intolerance is one of the dietary things that irks me. I like ice cream. I eat it about once a year now. Cream I can eat. Milk and cheese I can't. I miss cheese. I have to watch what I eat. Many of us have food intolerances or even allergies. Increases the challange.

solomon levi
04-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Yes (to the last comment) but the people who really make a difference
to humankind have been those who spent time 'elsewhere'. The whole thing
that makes the cave allegory worth telling is what was seen when one left
the cave - otherwise there is no story, just people sitting in a cave.
Likewise, I doubt there will be much story from people sitting around the
dinner table eating vegetables or meat.
The philosophers which suggested this diet did not achieve their wisdom
from their diet, but rather the diet achieved some fame from their wisdom.

There seems to be a tradition where realised beings are asked to describe their
experience or whatever, and then people try to repeat it. But trying to repeat
from here is not at all the same consciousness as doing naturally from the root
from there. This is why it doesn't work. A parrot can learn english and will never
be a human. Assiyah mimicking the acts of a Tsadik is not seeing what the Tsadik
sees.
Consciousness is everything. If the consciousness isn't there, it doesn't matter what
we do. If the consciousness is there, it doesn't matter what we do.

Anyway, if vegetarian diet gives one more energy, then that's something one can use
towards greater consciousness. But There are lots of ways to acquire more energy.
Thinking is one of the largest uses of energy - internal dialogue.
If a diet for the body is desireable, how much more would be a diet for the mind.
If killing animals is in some way detrimental to spiritual work, then how about
killing the present by constantly thinking with the past.
I work on the latter and take no thought for my diet and I can access spirit and other
dimensions in a moment, and if you asked me, I'd tell you it's because my mind is not
bound to beliefs and knowledge.

Andro
04-03-2012, 12:18 PM
Sol, you're shining :)

Other that I agree with all your points, I admit I lack the subtlety (or better - the will to be subtle or 'philosophical' about it.)

I am calling Big BS on all those who beLIEve something is good for you because it seems to work for them. Or because some ancient philosophers/mystery schools/fictional religious figure did it.

How many veggie meals does it take a trendy copycat to become Pythagoras?
(Hint: It takes Pythagoras to become Pythagoras.)

NOBODY can tell you what's universally 'right', let alone what's 'right for you'.

NOBODY can tell you the 'right' weight, diet, lifestyle, cholesterol levels, etc. Get this into your little sanctimonious and crypto-dogmatic/pseudo-tolerant heads already! Or don't! :D

People adhering to 'systems' and 'formulas' which they believe are universally 'RIGHT', may have an issue with Individuality and Diversity.

This issue may be either temporally empowering OR limiting, BUT, regardless, it's absolutely right.

FOR YOU! :)

Pornography is a matter of Geography!

I am also in full agreement with III about moderation. Also, arriving at moderation often takes one through a path of extremes.

Diet has ZERO to do with spirituality. If you are to have a spiritually oriented incarnation, nothing can change that, for all the chanting in the world.

Meat eating/smoking/drinking is common amongst many amazingly talented psychics.

Robert Monroe, one of the greatest (known) OOB pioneers of our era, greatly enjoyed his meat, cigarettes, drinks and what have you.

And by the way, NO, spring mattresses will NOT interfere with your chances to astral project IF you are 'marked' for it.

Neither will other inventions/theories people like to make up every once in a while.

Yes, I know, I can get boring 'down here' sometimes.

Personally, I DO eat meat that agrees with me (with moderation), I can't stand most fruits, I absolutely LOVE coffee (taste and smell), I smoke tobacco on and off, I don't do any yoga or any other eastern (or western) practices of the kind, I don't go to the gym, I don't (and never did) use psychedelics, and yet I have traveled far and wide across non-physical realms and have achieved remarkable results with shamanic healing and insight. Yet, I never claim this is THE 'way' of reaching such achievements.

But those people still caught in the trap of some illusive perception of 'right' and 'wrong' will always find ways to rationalize everything to fit into your belief systems.

Do what feels right for you, that's all there is to it. There's no goddamn formula!

It's what works for YOU now, and even this may change in 'time'...

BTW, 'Psyche'/'Nephesh' relates to MIND. The actual word for SOUL is 'Neshama'.

PS: If you're a vegetarian/vegan - you're still a 'murderer'. So if you believe that killing for food is violent and 'wrong', at least quit being a hypocrite and stop eating altogether.

And while at it, quit breathing too. You're killing the atmosphere!!!

And please take everything (including what I wrote above) with a pinch of something :cool:

Awani
04-03-2012, 01:09 PM
No gateway drug there.

Of the most addictive drugs are nicotine and caffeine, in some studies they are above heroin in terms of addiction. Not a gateway drug... but as addictive as heroin. It is not such a bad drug if compared, I am just talking addiction. About a third of casual caffeine users become addicted (can't recall where I read this). It was not easy for me to quit caffeine... it had a strong grip. Once I quit it was very easy.

It is funny that when people who use something debate with someone who has chosen not to, the user always get their blood pressure going.

Moderation is good... but lacks intensity... in certain situations full speed ahead is the only way. Diet effect the mind. I have both seen this and experienced it. I have no other proof. I see mind/soul/spirit as the same thing. I know some separate mind and spirit, but I don't.

90 % of us don't eat ecological free range animals, or animals that one has hunted... most of us get meat created in a factory. They transport animals in tiny horrible cages across the globe just to slaughter them instead of killing them and then transporting them... its all profit. For me it is not so much a moral issue about murder, but an economical issue... I just don't want those fuckers to have my money. And they never will.

Boycott is good. I boycott so much shit I have to find new paths, create your own world... this is always good from my experience. Others might have different ones.

Diet is individual, but the body is a machine. If it is fed in different ways, different states of mind are achieved. This is undisputed from my experience. Now some people might rather want to meditate or do something else. I'm saying diets is one way.

This might be what the Pythagoreans did, and it spread from there.

One last thing... sometimes no compromise achieves amazing results. After all it guards integrity.


"Cold turkey doesn't even apply to Substance D. Unlike the legacy of inherited predisposition to addictive behaviors or substances, this needs no genetic assistance. There's no weekend warriors on the D. You're either on it... or you haven't tried it." - from A Scanner Darkly (film)

:cool:

Andro
04-03-2012, 02:21 PM
It is funny that when people who use something debate with someone who has chosen not to, the user always get their blood pressure going.

It's equally funny when people who DON'T use something argue/claim that those who DO use it are ''wrong''.


It is also true that it is very much impossible for us not to think that the meat eaters are doing something "wrong"...
As I've said, most vegetarians (and I include myself here) really believe that meat eaters are doing something "wrong".

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/NetWrong.jpg

_________________________________________________


Moderation is good... but lacks intensity...

Those don't necessarily contradict. I personally see my life as both moderate and quite intense at the same time.

I think there has to be some sort of balance - otherwise we would probably self-destruct (whether by slow decay or spontaneous combustion... or something... :))

Over-Moderation can destroy you by Ice (frozen water). Over-Intensity can destroy you by Fire.

Quoth Robert Frost:


Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

The Secret Fire of Alchemy is reputedly a 'Fiery Water' ;)


90 % of us don't eat ecological free range animals, or animals that one has hunted... most of us get meat created in a factory.
They transport animals in tiny horrible cages across the globe just to slaughter them instead of killing them and then transporting them...

With this I personally resonate. I myself am doing the best I can to eat free range. You can actually TASTE the difference.


One last thing... sometimes no compromise achieves amazing results. After all it guards integrity.

That's exactly what Individuality and Diversity are all about. And not compromising one's uniqueness and individuality just because someone else thinks it's 'wrong' - is a great test of one's integrity IMO.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/RightPath.jpg

About the body being a machine - Yes, but different bodies are animated by different Spiritual Entities, having different incarnational 'requirements'. And we are not our bodies :)

Besides, different bodies require different types of sustenance... Anywhere between Omnivore and Bretharian... One can also change horses mid-race... Diversity again...

Usually, more Advanced Incarnating Spiritual Entities can be quite picky about 'choosing' their upcoming incarnational vehicle :)
✂----------------------------------------------

zoas23
04-04-2012, 12:01 AM
It's equally funny when people who DON'T use something argue/claim that those who DO use it are ''wrong''.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/NetWrong.jpg


LOL... You have a bad perception of what I'm doing.
I actually enjoy taling to people who doesn't think like me, specially Solomon right now.
The thread was about "vegetarianism", but the subject of "our duties and obligations to the material world" came up and this alternative subject became more interesting.

I'm not trying to "win" the debate against Solomon or give him a lesson and show him that he has to think as I do.
I think he has interesting points of view that I don't share... that's mostly why I enjoy talking to him (I know Nibiru and Dev think very much as I do about vegetarianism... I wouldn't talk to them much on the subject because... what could we possibly say: "Hey! We rule! We are so incredibly cool!", "Hey! I am vegetarian and you are vegetarian! Cool!", etc... probably none of us is interested in such conversation... and I like the way in which the thread found a more interesting subject).

As for the Soul and the Nepesh being the same thing or not.
I didn't bring the word Nepesh by accident. There's a problem with the words "Soul" and "Spirit" and even sometimes the word "Mind": the English (and same thing happens in Spanish) translations of these words are VERY random.... and each person is using them in incredibly different ways. So I said "Nepesh" to be more clear, because "Soul" is very much an expression that can mean a lot of different things (I have no problem if you say that the soul is the Neschama... or if your idea is that it is the Ruach... I try to avoid the word "Soul" and "Spirit" because both of them are used to mean Nepesh, Ruach And Neschama without any kind of logic in different texts). If we agree that the Psyche and the Nepesh are the same thing, that's good enough for me... it's not really important for me if we are going to call such thing "mind", "spirit" or "soul".

solomon levi
04-04-2012, 03:02 AM
It is funny. this has gone completely off topic and yet the "off topic" side became more interesting than the topic (the "vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian" threads have a tendency to finish in a silly "it's good to be vegetarian" vs. "it's evil to be vegetarian" that lasts forver till one of the parts gets bored).

First of all, pardon me if you think I give a bad portrait of your ideas. It's not my intention.
It is also true that I have a hard time trying to understand your ideas.



There's very few philosophies that can be called "unrealistic". You are indeed realistic in your ow way.
I think you are placing almost the whole weight of the real on the spiritual world and almost nothing on the material world. That's O.K. and not "unrealistic".
BUT even Plato's allegory of the cave involved a man who got out of the material world (cave) and saw the spiritual world, but then he returned to the cave to help others.



This and nothing else is exactly the core of our disagreement.
I do not think it is possible for a signle person to make the WHOLE wolrd perfect in every detail.
However, I really don't know any western esoteric tradition that DOESN'T suggest we should try to do our best here in this touchable material world. The idea of "Immanentize the eschaton" isn't my invention.
There are also a lot of western tradition in which doing your best to improve the material world isn't just a suggestiong, but also a "duty" or an "obligation" (this doesn't translate into a "you have to be vegetarian").
The only western traditions I can think of that don't follow this ideal would be very modern and recent ones (like LaVey's Satanism or Peter Carroll's Chaos Magick).

I won't start mentioning traditions that support this idea, because if I made a list of all the western traditions I can think about, I'll probably have to say "all of the above" when I finish listing them.

You mentioned the Baghavad Gita before, I have read it. I still feel uneasy talking about Asian traditions and I try not to do it due to my ignorance on the subject (I really need to improve this situation, since my sons will be part-Asian because of their mother... and I feel it will be my duty to be able to speak to them about Asian culture).



I don't disagree with the idea that it is psychological and that we have psychological perceptions.
The Psyche is nothing but the soul (the Nepesh, not the Ruach).



Maybe our "cosmology" isn't quite different, but our views about what we are meant to do with it are in opposition.

To bring the old allegory again, I do believe that "returning to the cave" is indeed a duty, an olbigation.
And that whilst offering "spiritual knowledge" is perfect, we never completely leave the cave whilst we have a physical body... and that even if it's true that in the material cave people has spiritual thirst, it is also true that there's physical hunger too and our bodies die if we don't eat, just like anyone else's body does.

The cave may not be the Primum Mobile, but such thing doesn't mean that it is so "low" or "so Assiah", etc that we shouldn't care about it or try to improve the way in which we all spend our time there.

Hi zoas23. :)

I ran out of time yesterday, and I don't like it when people address only one part of
a post in an "argument" (don't really like the implications of that word either because people
usually don't imagine arguments can be without heated emotion).

I have leaned to the "spiritual" emphasis because that is the only way I've found that
actually does make the world perfect - not that that's my ideal or anything. Basically
I see the world as being what it is to fulfill that purpose - someplace has to be it. If it
wasn't here, it would be somewhere else. And we would be there since that is our vibration.
So "perfect" is somewhere else, some other vibration, which actually doesn't have to go
anywhere - there can be heaven on earth, through consciousness and vibration, but not through
mass to mass efforts.
When I have seen perfection, completeness, fullness (nothing lacking, nothing wanting), it has
been through not identifying with my mind or thoughts. When thinking stops, the interpretation
stops, and nothing exists relative to something else and there is 'no one' to know (tree of knowledge)
good and evil, complete or incomplete, perfect or imperfect - no way of measuring any of that.
I don't know of any other way to 'find' perfection. I'm quite certain (which I never like to be or try to be)
that this is what others have experienced - Buddha, Christian mystics, nondualists, kabbalists...
But that isn't important, what others experienced. Anyway, when I do experience that, no one else in
the world is wanting either - I can't see lack in them; they are experiencing "God" through their specific
filter/knowledge/vibration. We are all already what we are searching for. This was an agreement. There
are no victims save subjectively for those who want to experience what it is to be a victim. Even pain,
hurt, harm, killing are subjective interpretations. Everything is generic vibration from another view.
Everything is one consciousness willfully experiencing the seperation of this one for the experience of
drama, creation, the Passion, to know the extent of what potential can be. Nothing is prohibited.
I only want to make people aware of the power of beliefs - they fix the attention and make the fluid
seem concrete, the subjective seem objective. This limits our options.
:)

Thanks for allowing this topic to wander. I'm trying to orbit the theme, but it does apply to everything.
I'm enjoying talking with you.
I, too, do not wish to change you or to win or anything.
But there is a freedom in acting without belief.
Nothing needs to change - we can do whatever we have been doing or whatever
we'd like to do, with belief or without belief. Belief does create karma subjectively.
Belief will make one eating cow have karma and another not have it - not because of
the act of eating, but because of belief. Hell, punishment, guilt, sin... all belief/subjective.
And for believers, the subjective is objective, their world, appears external.
Disbelief is the same as belief.
I am pointing to suspension of belief.
The world we perceive is one description of many.

I was really close to death today; not that there is anything ill about me. I was just using
my attention and focussing on potential and other dimensions, and was seeing this world
as a very slow dream, and seeing other worlds, and this undefined me and I saw myself
not as a son or a father or a brother, and I was afraid of leaving the people I love, because it
is very real to me, that I can 'wake up' in another dimension. I'm not experienced enough
to know if I will naturally come back here, as this is a center of gravity, or if I won't come
back at all and will have died to my family. But I'm gradually losing the fear.

zoas23
04-06-2012, 12:50 AM
I get your points, I specially like your ideas about "belief". They do remind me a lot of Austin Spare, whom I like the most (not really an alchemist, but one of the most interesting readers of the neo-platonic tradition in the XX century).

I still feel there is something missing...

... The urge that Paracelsus felt to heal everyone he could. I think that such thing was part of his own "great work".

I assume that this urge can take different shapes in different persons (or even a lot of shapes in the same person: in my own case I feel that being vegetarian is a part of it, but I wouldn't find it OK for myself to say that such thing is complete or that I can rest in vegetarian laurels... of course not).

solomon levi
04-06-2012, 03:27 AM
Maybe this urge is karmic in nature.
One precept I would support is taking responsibility for everything
in one's life. We can't heal (in ourselves) what we are not responsible
for. Blame itself is an illness. When we assume responsibility and see
how our knowledge or ignorance has brought about the descriptions
of our lives, we see that that is the case with everyone.
If we heal people and their consciousness does not change, the healing
will not stick. Without wisdom, they will be sick again. And who can
force wisdom? Help given when not asked for is called tyranny and
judgement. Some beings believe in non-interference. How will people
learn if others "help" them, take away their stumbling stones?

True help is rarely giving somone what they want. True help is often a
shamanic or coyote teaching which puts someone in circumstances which
they would not willingly, voluntarily, engage themselves.

Compassion of most people is sympathy, being similar. True help can only
come from one who is dis-similar, outside the box. And often there is no interest
in that. The box is a closed loop. People don't give it up without a death, and so
few are willing to die. As far as I have come in dying, I would not wish it upon
anyone. It's the most difficult thing, like willingly going insane. People want an
idea of enlightenment, but they hardly ever realise what that really is - the absence
of a seperate self, ego identity. So there are many "spiritual" people and traditions,
but most are self-improvement and not self-death.

Anyway, I'm sure there are those who help others in a variety of ways. I'm not
against that. I just think it shows a degree of attachment still, which isn't right or
wrong - I'm just trying to call things what they are; to point at different degrees
of awareness. There are Mother Teresas and there are likely people who become
realised and disappear/ascend and have nothing to do with this earth again.
We should all be whatever we are. There's no need to hurry or try to be some
ideal that isn't in our hearts.

Here is the previously mentioned part of the Bhagavad Gita, for your perusal:
http://vedabase.net/bg/2/en

I don't agree with every point/argument, but on the whole, it is how I see things.
And I arrived at this on my own. I haven't read the Gita in probably a dozen years.
I know that sounds like corroboration and objective evidence, but it really doesn't
matter. We can argue these things, but in the end one should follow their heart.
My path is not a human path. God is not a human for me. I am not much interested
in humanity, although I love interacting with a true human, naked of personality and
ego. But I am more into awareness. Human awareness is still a small fraction or band-width
of the totality that we can experience. Humans don't try to enlighten ants or cows.
In the same way, one outside the box doesn't try to enlighten those in the box.
I would say people don't drop the box or transcend it or anything, because the box
drops itself when we no longer place our attention on it; when we move our center of
gravity, our assemblage point. Any focus on the box affirms the box. Any focus on the
human affirms the human. For some the human realm is 4-d. From another perspective
it is only one point (1-d) out of millions (7-d).

Thanks for the conversation. I guess I've said as much as I can think to add.
Mainly, I hope I have defined the difference between improvement and deconstruction.
I see vegetarianism as improvement of something, whether it is oneself or the world.
I know the self and the world as descriptions, not as things that I would improve or evolve.
I actually do both, but I don't believe in the improvements I make. I know that they are folly.
Things are what they are, without psychological meaning. If I eat meat, it doesn't mean
anything. It doesn't mean I am not compassionate. It doesn't mean a hundred things people
may think it means. It's just eating. I don't attach meaning to things, or when I do, I don't
believe myself.
Meaning is a part of improvement. People don't improve themselves unless it means something
to them. Dropping purpose and meaning is very insane and difficult - a dark period of my life.
I didn't choose it. It was thrust upon me by spirit. I chose spirit over self, and losing purpose
was part of the fine print I guess. But I still act in the world. Belief is the only difference.
Like playing a card game - the rules make the game. But we don't believe these are God's
rules, or objective rules with any inherent meaning.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. I really don't recommend my view to someone in a "serious"
relationship. I don't have a real identity that someone can discover; I have no security to
offer; I have no firm boundaries to define and agree on and grow together in. I've yet to
meet someone who is truly desirous of unconditional love. How do we define unconditional
relationship? Oops - new topic. :)

ps - I called it "my view", but it's not. It's funny, I used to get frustrated with my girlfriend
who kept saying it was my view. For me, it's the view that is seen when I am not there.
I said that a hundred times and it never sunk in. Why should it? How could she comprehend
such an outrageous claim? I'm there arguing with her - how can I not be there? Anyway,
I don't really care anymore. My view, the view that is seen without me... doesn't matter...
no objective meaning. :)

zoas23
04-06-2012, 04:43 PM
My path is not a human path. God is not a human for me. I am not much interested
in humanity, although I love interacting with a true human, naked of personality and
ego. But I am more into awareness. Human awareness is still a small fraction or band-width
of the totality that we can experience. Humans don't try to enlighten ants or cows.
In the same way, one outside the box doesn't try to enlighten those in the box.


If I am honest, I thought I simply didn't agree with you in some ideas.
You have explained the whole of your idea now, I am reading it with horror.
I can respect your vision, just like anyone else's vision, though I also with I could help you.



Thanks for the conversation. I guess I've said as much as I can think to add.


I am mostly speechless now.
I can confess that I think that you are terribly wrong, but I know you don't think that way and that I won't be able to convince you that you are.



Anyway, I'll shut up now. I really don't recommend my view to someone in a "serious"
relationship. I don't have a real identity that someone can discover; I have no security to
offer; I have no firm boundaries to define and agree on and grow together in. I've yet to
meet someone who is truly desirous of unconditional love. How do we define unconditional
relationship? Oops - new topic. :)

ps - I called it "my view", but it's not. It's funny, I used to get frustrated with my girlfriend
who kept saying it was my view. For me, it's the view that is seen when I am not there.
I said that a hundred times and it never sunk in. Why should it? How could she comprehend
such an outrageous claim? I'm there arguing with her - how can I not be there?

I assume that if you were a woman and the lovely Isha, my girlfriend, didn't exist, the idea of being your boyfriend would never come to my mind. What's the point of doing anything at all with someone who's "not there" and thinks it's OK that he's "not there"?

I'm not trying to mock you with my reply, I mostly feel sadness and horror. I wish I could help, but I know you don't feel you need help. So THIS conversation doesn't make much sense, but for sure we have a lot of other things to talk about in other threads. I don't question the whole of your knowledge, but the general view you have about life and which one is the path.

solomon levi
04-06-2012, 07:46 PM
Thanks for your candor.
I am a little surprised at that. I didn't mean to scare anyone.
I'm not all that bad. I can still fake it pretty well.
We're all faking it you know.

Do you meditate zoas23?
What happens when you touch samadhi or silence or whatever?
Are you human silence or just silence?
Have you ever stood or sat in a meadow while the sun rose
and you were so still that you practically weren't there - and no words entered your mind?

It's funny, the reason I'm compelled to see "what is seen when I'm not there"
was originally because I wanted to truly communicate with others.
In our subjective worlds, we hardly ever meet. We assume that we hear and
understand people, but we rarely truly do because we can't drop our knowledge
which acts as a dirty filter, a preconception - we have exchanged the actual present
for images. We look at our loved ones and are flooded with memories and associations.
Do you know every relationship that fails does so because of images?

Anyway, I sought out the objective world, or something at least more objective than
what we usually do, so that the filters would not interfere with communication. It turns
out that the filter is the ego, the apparent seperate self identity. Well, I was somewhat
successful in deconstructing that and seeing from a place "where I am not there".
If anyone else deconstructed their ego, they would not be there either and see what is
presently happening without their knowledge/mind/interpretation. And when we come
out of not being there, we see the subjectivity of the individual and can no longer argue
as if one is right and the other is wrong - all is subjective and relative. That is why one
loses belief. A person, or a mind I should say, is really just a series of random events
and thoughts that we give continuity to by holding on to the past and linear time and
making this an identity. I sincerely wish you could see the horror of that for a moment.
But not before you're ready. It'll crack your grid irreparably.

Anyway, I did it all for love. :)
I wanted to improve relationships. But I found that most relationships are... well, people
don't know themselves - they don't know what they truly are. So how can they know what
they want? This is why it changes all the time as they learn more and more about themselves.
Everything is temporal for them, because their identity is temporal. "Love" for people who
identify themselves with their minds/knowledge/past, is really just a temporary attraction
between the four elements. How rare that people find real love which is the quintessence and
not fire, air, water, or earth and yet all of these. What identity/ego/self does the QE possess?
Is it not unconditioned? Again, how to have unconditional relationship?
Do you feel me?

Yes, I lost the ability to have sincere relationships with people, because they have to have security,
continuity, identity, goals, meaning, etc. I can fake it in society, so I can have a job and fulfill the
requirements of that job. I can fake it and have superficial conversation and hold my tongue about
the reality that I see behind the masks. But I wouldn't fake it in loving relationship - what's the point?
I wouldn't waste anyone's time. That's more loving there than most people you'll meet. I've known
tons of people who aren't really happy and can't be themselves or aren't accepted/loved unconditionally
and they stay in their unhappy relationships. Most people are fine with wasting their time and others
on something that they know deep down isn't going to work. Most people believe relationship is
compromise. You know what gets compromised? The totality of oneself. If you're honest, there is very
little love in the world. No one can love from only part of themselves. And everyone is fractured and
compartmentalised. We've changed the true definition of love to fit our F'd up world.

The ego, the subjective personal knowledge based identity, can not make the world better or relationships
better. It is the problem. It's the cop trying to catch a thief when the cop is the thief.
I don't want to horrify you, but non-egos are the solution. Non-egos are QE/heaven on earth.

Most people are horrified by this solution, which is why we're nowhere near a solution and the world
is full of broken relationships and nations at war and people looking out for number 1.
The ego won't voluntarily deconstruct the ego. One has to be touched by God, or touched in the head. :)
Seriously, it comes from love/QE. And until unconditional love is more important than personal love,
there is no hope. And the person that says "I have unconditional love" does not know what unconditional
love is. It only appears when the I is absent. It cannot be possessed. It possesses all and favors none.
Scary, huh? It frightens me too. Something so impersonal, so vast, infinite, ineffable. Unfortunately, our
personal dreams are temporary. We'll have to face this eventually. We can ignore that, or we can prepare
ourselves for it.

I love you zoas23.
I feel sad for myself sometimes too. But these eggs cannot be unscrambled.
Well, I am fluid enough that I probably could unscramble them. I guess I really don't want to.
Wow. I hadn't realised that before. Responsibility is a good thing.
Thank you so much.

ps - I don't think this is the path. Paths are linear. They're too restricting for me.

III
04-07-2012, 06:09 AM
Hi Solomon,

A most revealing set of posts. Very excellent. "The horror of it all" is quite right. And yet ...

Consider volunatary evolution. What is evolving and what is one evolving into? How is Alchemy different from yoga and it's eternally blissful (so it is described) dive into the absolute.

So here we find ourselves deep in the past hoping to catelyze one of the inhabitants of this near moribund creation into the consciousness needed to become willing to evolve into a being able to be liberated and survive outside the nursery school sandbox. Many who come into this creation forget and get trapped.

For me the solution has been a relationship of unconditional love with a fellow traveler doing an alchemy together and become something different. Neither of us has to pretend. We just are.

solomon levi
04-08-2012, 07:04 PM
Hi Solomon,

A most revealing set of posts. Very excellent. "The horror of it all" is quite right. And yet ...

Consider volunatary evolution. What is evolving and what is one evolving into? How is Alchemy different from yoga and it's eternally blissful (so it is described) dive into the absolute.

So here we find ourselves deep in the past hoping to catelyze one of the inhabitants of this near moribund creation into the consciousness needed to become willing to evolve into a being able to be liberated and survive outside the nursery school sandbox. Many who come into this creation forget and get trapped.

For me the solution has been a relationship of unconditional love with a fellow traveler doing an alchemy together and become something different. Neither of us has to pretend. We just are.



Thanks III.
That sounds great. I imagine a relationship with someone like me (for me)
would be amazing. The joy and appreciation and love, and if there were
some unhappiness, it would just be what is, which is what I'm used to
dealing with all the time, so it wouldn't be a reason to blame the relationship
or one's partner or even have a fight. But it's not a guarantee. Freedom is
not predictable. Who knows where the wind will blow tomorrow.

Not being in a relationship has taught me to love the Presence. I really
relate to Kabir and Mirabai and such poets of love.
And we can also focus our love/attention on anyone, on whatever is present.
For me, there is no difference between friendship and love relationship
besides the sex. If it's not real and deep and open/vulnerable, then I won't
invest my energy. Surprisingly, though I am a very quiet person in social and
work situations, a lot of people open up to me and tell me their life story or
something really personal or ask me about spirit or God related things.
Several times people I've never seen before approach me on the street and
start deep conversations like these or tell me spiritual things about myself.
One time, this homeless-looking guy asked me for a cigarette. He kept talking
about the depth of my eyes. The only cigarette I had was a partially smoked
cigar like a swisher. The guy asked me twice if I was the one who had smoked it
and being satisfied that it was me, he would be blessed and honored to finish it,
as if he were receiving darshan from a cigarette of mine.
I had weird things like that happen frequently when I was working.

Awani
10-29-2012, 02:15 PM
I am back on eating fish because when I go to Gabon (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2828-Iboga-expedition) I won't be able to eat only vegetarian food as they don't have the option really. So I am preparing my stomach. Fish is quite soft as it is, not like meat at all, but I can still feel harder in my gut from having eaten it now for a few days. It tastes ok (haven't eaten fish in ten years), but I do get quick flashes of disgust but they go by as fast as they come.

I think if I had to start eating meat again I'd probably puke, not with chicken but with all other kinds of meat.

On a positive note it is nice to go to a restaurant and have more options than normal.

:cool:

Orbital
10-31-2012, 03:35 AM
I think the simple answer is that if it was good enough for Pythagoras, than vegetarianism is good enough for me. I definitley agree that it is a tradition passed in this way through the ages for a reason. Also, seeing how diets high in meat and cheese affect the bowels is no joke.. haha that shit is literally no joke. If you're a meat eater eat more veggies... 70-30 instead of 30-70 if ya catch my drift... :cool:

Awani
10-31-2012, 03:57 AM
Yes, cheese can be rough on the stomach. I have serious hard-like pain in my gut today after eating yet another fish-dish.


Following the Christianisation of the Roman Empire in late antiquity, vegetarianism practically disappeared from Europe as it was in other Continents, except India... It re-emerged during the Renaissance... - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#History)

So it grows with enlightenment and vanishes with fascist governance (no offense non-veggies out there, just an observation... after all the Empire never ended).

I like this paragraph of a Wiki article:


The ancient vegetarians held that consumption of meat hampered their ascetic and philosophical endeavors. Most of them also gave ethical reasons for their attitudes, rejected the common religious practice of animal sacrifice, and emphasized the common traits of humans and other species. Their opponents pointed to the differences between man and animals in response. The question of whether there are any ethical duties toward animals was hotly debated, and the arguments in dispute were quite similar to the ones familiar in modern discussions on animal rights. Vegetarianism was usually part and parcel of religious convictions connected with the concept of transmigration of the soul (metempsychosis). There was a widely held belief, popular among both vegetarians and non-vegetarians, that in the Golden Age of the beginning of humanity mankind was strictly non-violent. In that utopian state of the world hunting, livestock breeding, and meat-eating, as well as agriculture were unknown and unnecessary, as the earth spontaneously produced in abundance all the food its inhabitants needed. This myth is recorded by Hesiod, Plato, the famous Roman poet Ovid, and others. Ovid also praised the Pythagorean ideal of universal nonviolence. - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_vegetarianism#Classical_antiquity)

I like the inclusion of agriculture, because in a sense the mass production of meat (like pig farms) is no better than the mass production of tomatoes in large factory-styled green houses. It is a logical result of our way of life. Our modern society would not function otherwise... at work we have had some tomatoes in the fridge and they didn't seem to rot no matter how long they were in there. Now that is scary.


The Golden Age

The golden age was first; when Man yet new,
No rule but uncorrupted reason knew:
And, with a native bent, did good pursue.
Unforc'd by punishment, un-aw'd by fear,
His words were simple, and his soul sincere;
Needless was written law, where none opprest:
The law of Man was written in his breast:
No suppliant crowds before the judge appear'd,
No court erected yet, nor cause was heard:
But all was safe, for conscience was their guard.
The mountain-trees in distant prospect please,
E're yet the pine descended to the seas:
E're sails were spread, new oceans to explore:
And happy mortals, unconcern'd for more,
Confin'd their wishes to their native shore.
No walls were yet; nor fence, nor mote, nor mound,
Nor drum was heard, nor trumpet's angry sound:
Nor swords were forg'd; but void of care and crime,
The soft creation slept away their time.
The teeming Earth, yet guiltless of the plough,
And unprovok'd, did fruitful stores allow:
Content with food, which Nature freely bred,
On wildings and on strawberries they fed;
Cornels and bramble-berries gave the rest,
And falling acorns furnish'd out a feast.
The flow'rs unsown, in fields and meadows reign'd:
And Western winds immortal spring maintain'd.
In following years, the bearded corn ensu'd
From Earth unask'd, nor was that Earth renew'd.
From veins of vallies, milk and nectar broke;
And honey sweating through the pores of oak. from Metamorphoses (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3226-Metamorphoses&p=25396) by Ovid

Pythagoras in Metamorphoses (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1459-Pythagoras-in-Metamorphoses)

:cool:

Orbital
10-31-2012, 04:59 PM
at work we have had some tomatoes in the fridge and they didn't seem to rot no matter how long they were in there

I have a couple pumpkins that I purchased in September of last year (2011) that still look very healthy with no signs of rot on the outside that I plan on carving this evening. I purchased the pumpkins from a local Pavillions, and I'm almost 100% sure they're not organic... I also bought two more pumpkins today and plan on leaving them in my living room on the hardwood floor throughout the year again to see how long these ones last.

After seeing how long those two pumpkins lasted makes me wonder how much extra work is needed by the body to break down inorganic produce... It's no wonder that the scientists and employees at Monsanto won't serve up their own concoctions in their cafeterias.

Ghislain
10-31-2012, 07:00 PM
With regards to the tomatoes... and possibly the pumkins...I have noticed the same thing in my fridge.

I believe some companies have started irradiating food. I thought this was illegal.

Ghislain

Andro
11-01-2012, 04:49 PM
So it [vegetarianism] grows with enlightenment and vanishes with fascist governance

Hitler was a vegetarian :)

Was he the exception that strengthens the rule? Or was he getting the fascist nutrients from his daily meth shots (http://amphetamines.com/adolf-hitler.html)...

The Wehrmacht troops were also receiving speed pills (http://amphetamines.com/nazi.html). Who needs to eat ANYTHING on such a regimen :)

Awani
11-01-2012, 04:51 PM
He was the exception. Remember that Hitler was interested in being a SUPERMAN... most fascist dictators are only interested in ruling everyone else. So in a way perhaps Hitler figured a Superman is a Veggie;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

:cool:

Andro
11-01-2012, 05:07 PM
Good point about ruling others vs. Superman :)

Godwin's Law is also something that makes some sense. It may explain a thing or two about our innermost fascinations...


Talking to a prison psychologist while awaiting trial, ex-Governor General of Poland Hans Frank (1900-1946) describes Hitler's charismatic effect on him...

"I can hardly understand it myself. There must be some basic evil in me. In all men. Mass hypnosis? Hitler cultivated this evil in man.
When I saw him in that movie in court, I was swept along again for a moment, in spite of myself. Funny, one sits in court feeling guilt and shame.
Then Hitler appears on the screen and you want to stretch out your hand to him . . . . It's not with horns on his head or with a forked tail that the devil comes to us, you know.
He comes with a captivating smile, spouting idealistic sentiments, winning one's loyalty. We cannot say that Adolf Hitler violated the German people. He seduced us."

Nibiru
06-02-2013, 07:41 PM
I find this video really moving! I did something quite similar to this kid around the age of 9 or 10 while eating at a restaurant with my family. It makes you wonder where children like this are receiving their values from when they seem to exist prior to and outside of any source of external programming...



http://gawker.com/baby-vegetarian-floors-mom-with-precocious-opposition-t-510672747?action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B526597240710157%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D&fb_action_ids=10151720291433833

Ghislain
06-02-2013, 09:10 PM
Very touching video Nibiru.

Ghislain

Krisztian
06-03-2013, 12:01 AM
It makes you wonder where children like this are receiving their values from when they seem to exist prior to . . .

Lovely! . . . I'm also appreciative of mothers who're willing to listen to wisdom that transcends age.

He's probably incarnating fresh, from a place [another planet] where the culture didn't eat "flesh" of the animals. Probably surprised people on Earth do. Reminds me of Lorber's Saturn.

Nibiru
06-03-2013, 12:01 AM
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it :)