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Moshe
01-25-2012, 11:39 PM
Hi Friends,
I have a few questions in this post, and some thoughts, all wound up together.

My first question is - Are all Philosopher Stones created equal?
In other words, archemy aside, if a red stone prepared by Art, arrives at the point where it can transmute lead into gold, is it certain to be equal to all other stones that do the same? (assuming the same degree of multiplication)

My next question is another aspect of this same thought:
Can a person make the stone and remain aligned with evil?

In the book Hyl and Coahyl, the author writes:

For whoever carries the Stone with him, for him no evil spirit will stay where he is. Yes, if one takes it to a possessed man and gives him some of it, it will drive away all evil spirits, because it is a Quinta Essentia, and nothing corruptible is in it. If the Elements were not cor¬rupted, no devil could exist or remain, because it is the corrup¬tion of the Elements.

That makes me definitely lean toward the idea that the Stone should banish evil from a person.
That means, that if a corrupted person were to gain information that a certain alchemist had the stone, and they broke in and stole the alchemist's Elixir of Life, not having created it themselves, would they then be radically transformed by the stone such that they could no longer remain evil? I imagine it would be quite a painful transformation that could potentially kill them, depending on the degree of their wickedness...

I also ask this because when we arrive at the unmultiplied Stone, is it not a reflection of us, and how far we have progressed in our Art and consciousness that determines the "quality" of the Stone?

I know the true secrets of alchemy have been kept so hidden so that they do not get into the wrong hands.
I suppose that could be because a wicked person, one only interested in power, would just use the stone to create gold - for greed, and they wouldn't even focus on the spiritual and healing treasures it contains.
So that is possible, for sure, and I understand that.
But... if they decided one day, to drink the Elixir of Life, would it not radically change them?

Or... can a person retain their wicked ways and simply have a prolongation of life and intelligence and energy - so that it would worsen their state of being?

I know that alchemy, being such a noble art, with such potential for greatness, attracts the best and the worst. And I know that the worst can be highly intelligent. But then I also know that the Spiritus Mundi will not abide the wicked, and so their stone would not be pure, would it?
Or could even arrive at a Philosopher's Stone at all, being wicked???

There.
Those are my questions are wound together.
I appreciate your thoughts, your knowing, and, or your experience.

Andro
01-26-2012, 12:02 AM
It's about fixed and concentrated life force/energy, as nowhere available in UN-aided nature.

Consider electricity... Does it CARE what you plug into it? It might as well be a DVD player, just as it might be an electric chair... Does the electricity CARE what it is that you plug into the socket??

NO, it doesn't.

What matters, is how it affects YOU.

There is a very important spiritual component to the Great Work, and most people will NOT know what this component is until they start getting close to this pure and Undetermined / UNSPECIFIED energy.

Unspecified means exactly what the word implies. Good/Evil/Wicked/etc are RELATIVE terms. They are not, nor can they be absolute.

(BTW, to rationalize about this 'spiritual component' is a dead end IMO. One knows when one gets there, only to discover if one is 'ready or not (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIXyKmElvv8)'.

The ABSOLUTE goes BEYOND such polarities and dichotomies. One would have to experience this to understand.

Check out the Separator (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2002-The-Separator) story on this forum. It may provide some perspective on polarities and value judgements.

Moshe
01-26-2012, 12:48 AM
Dear Androgynous, thanks for your response.


It's about fixed and concentrated life force/energy, as nowhere available in UN-aided nature.

Consider electricity... Does it CARE what you plug into it? It might as well be a DVD player, just as it might be an electric chair... Does the electricity CARE what it is that you plug into the socket??
NO, it doesn't.

You're right. Electricity doesn't care... because it is violent. The electricity of this earth is caused by two opposites seeking to unite, as you know.
It is born from separation. It is part of an equality of Electricity-Magnetism-and-Gravity... in itself, it is somewhat of a pure power, like the masculine side without any
feminine balance. It is vulgar. It kills. It doesn't care.

There is a cold electricity, which an alchemist (if he/she practiced electricity) would call Our electricity. It is wise. it is gentle. It is made from the balance of the forces, and
the opening of the zero point field.
It is a cold flame that does not burn the bush. There is a man here in Canada named Daniel Pomerleau who creates circuits that can power a 120V AC power drill, or home,
but when he sticks his tongue on it, he gets only tingles. Seen it with my own eyes. Amazing.


There is a very important spiritual component to the Great Work, and most people will NOT know what this component is until they start getting close to this pure and Undetermined / UNSPECIFIED energy.
Unspecified means exactly what the word implies. Good/Evil/Wicked/etc are RELATIVE terms. They are not, nor can they be absolute.
(BTW, to rationalize about this 'spiritual component' is a dead end IMO. One knows when one gets there, only to discover if one is 'ready or not (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIXyKmElvv8)'.
The ABSOLUTE goes BEYOND such polarities and dichotomies. One would have to experience this to understand.
Check out the Separator (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2002-The-Separator) story on this forum. It may provide some perspective on polarities and value judgements.

Okay. I checked out the URL about the Separator.
I do not see the Balance as a Balance between Good and Evil.
Yes, on this Earth, sure, there is a balance between Good and Evil, but that is not because Truth creates a Balance of Good and Evil, but because this Earth does.
It is an arena for sorting these things out. The Torah begins with the letter Bet, not Aleph, because the Earth is the arena for duality to be sorted out.

Unspecified, by the way, doesn't mean for good and evil.
it means for which kingdom.
Make no mistake, there is a great specificity of the Divine.
They are specified toward Good.
Yes, the evil serves a purpose, and it must not be condemned for that purpose it HAS served,
but is not the work of the alchemist to cleanse and purify the evil root that exists in all things from the Fall, such that it exists no longer?
When an alchemist achieves adepthood, they have come to peace with the duality, but more importantly,
they are beyond it and have returned to the unified field which is Good - as in Balanced Positive,
where Male and Female are One. When the evil is banished into nothingness (because it is only an illusion, of sorts)
then what is left is that which is ALL things - Good.
It is not Good and Evil as One. I trust (hope) you are not saying that...
This Oneness is Love which is made by the "making love" of the Male and the Female.

Evil is a thing created by the Creator for a purpose. It exists in a localized "space and time" - not everywhere, always.
Once the purpose is served, the evil is no more. We then reenter into the Absolute which is, of course, beyond the Duality,
because there is no longer a split in the Oneness, but there still exists a POLARITY - of male and female - of light and dark
(not light and evil, light and darkness), empty and full, yin and yang, etc.

When Jacob ascends to Heaven, he has transcended the DUALITY, not the POLARITY. In fact, he is finally Adam Kadmon - both Male and Female again in balance, harmony, love.

okay.
So...
my question still remains.

Awani
01-26-2012, 01:14 AM
We then reenter into the Absolute which is, of course, beyond the Duality,
because there is no longer a split in the Oneness, but there still exists a POLARITY - of male and female - of light and dark
(not light and evil, light and darkness), empty and full, yin and yang, etc.

In my opinion No!

There is no polarity in Oneness.

Also it depends on how we define evil. From the perspective of a highly enlightened being a murderer might not be considered evil, only stupid... naive like a little baby. Evil is really only self-mutilation if we believe in the Oneness. What we do to others we do to ourselves. Is it evil to hurt oneself, or stupid?

We are all pretty stupid, some more than others... I like to thing I become less stupid every year...

:cool:

Seth-Ra
01-26-2012, 01:22 AM
... Electricity doesn't care... because it is violent. The electricity of this earth is caused by two opposites seeking to unite, as you know.
It is born from separation. It is part of an equality of Electricity-Magnetism-and-Gravity... in itself, it is somewhat of a pure power, like the masculine side without any
feminine balance. It is vulgar. It kills. It doesn't care.

There is a cold electricity, which an alchemist (if he/she practiced electricity) would call Our electricity. It is wise. it is gentle. It is made from the balance of the forces, and
the opening of the zero point field.
It is a cold flame that does not burn the bush. There is a man here in Canada named Daniel Pomerleau who creates circuits that can power a 120V AC power drill, or home,
but when he sticks his tongue on it, he gets only tingles. Seen it with my own eyes. Amazing.



Okay. I checked out the URL about the Separator.
I do not see the Balance as a Balance between Good and Evil.
Yes, on this Earth, sure, there is a balance between Good and Evil, but that is not because Truth creates a Balance of Good and Evil, but because this Earth does.
It is an arena for sorting these things out. The Torah begins with the letter Bet, not Aleph, because the Earth is the arena for duality to be sorted out.

Unspecified, by the way, doesn't mean for good and evil.
it means for which kingdom.
Make no mistake, there is a great specificity of the Divine.
They are specified toward Good.
Yes, the evil serves a purpose, and it must not be condemned for that purpose it HAS served,
but is not the work of the alchemist to cleanse and purify the evil root that exists in all things from the Fall, such that it exists no longer?
When an alchemist achieves adepthood, they have come to peace with the duality, but more importantly,
they are beyond it and have returned to the unified field which is Good - as in Balanced Positive,
where Male and Female are One. When the evil is banished into nothingness (because it is only an illusion, of sorts)
then what is left is that which is ALL things - Good.
It is not Good and Evil as One. I trust (hope) you are not saying that...
This Oneness is Love which is made by the "making love" of the Male and the Female.

Evil is a thing created by the Creator for a purpose. It exists in a localized "space and time" - not everywhere, always.
Once the purpose is served, the evil is no more. We then reenter into the Absolute which is, of course, beyond the Duality,
because there is no longer a split in the Oneness, but there still exists a POLARITY - of male and female - of light and dark
(not light and evil, light and darkness), empty and full, yin and yang, etc.

When Jacob ascends to Heaven, he has transcended the DUALITY, not the POLARITY. In fact, he is finally Adam Kadmon - both Male and Female again in balance, harmony, love.

okay.
So...
my question still remains.

You appear to have a good grasp on things (imo), so it should come as no surprise that even a person that is wicked, could create a stone that transmutes metals, and even may cure and prolong life - but it would not be THE Stone as we know it - i.e. it will not possess the Wisdom/Truth, it is merely a tool used by a negative-working artist. I personally think such is the reason for the some of the old Roman Catholic alchemists (cardinals, bishops etc..) who made many archemical tools (i say archemical only to denote its lacking the full Wisdom of the Truth of Life/Good/Love) and such people, even possessing such high-powered trinkets, still meet their end, and sometimes meet them because of said trinkets.

As i mentioned in another recent thread - whether you call it Divine Judgement, Karma, the 3-fold law, or some other term, the fact is what you reap is what you sow, and intent (microcosmic) as well as global (macrocosmic) flows will determine the final outcome. You can only manifest what is within, even if it is a gift from God Himself, its due to the nature of the receiver's heart that they would then be blessed with said gift - enabling the enlightened change in them. As Above, So Below - as Within, so Without (outside).

For this reason, ive always been a firm believer in the "secret"/Art/Truth protects itself, but the desire for its power is what is problematic, for many (wicked). They may seek and find a tool of power, but not the Glory of the One/All - but in their search cause much sorrow and death. Because the Truth is Good - it will later work around to the overall good, its the name of the game of sacrifice and balance, as you said - the evil has a purpose, but it is still an illusion of sorts - a child beating its head against the wall of Truth, and while the wall wont cease, how much damage is caused by the beating? It can be rebuilt and reinforced - but until all is made as perfect as the Stone, there is a cost, which we hope to minimize. (or atleast heal)

As i said, you seem to have a good grasp on the key concepts, so i'd thing you'd answer your own question - but in any event i hope ive helped some. :)




~Seth-Ra

Andro
01-26-2012, 01:23 AM
Moshe,

These are your interpretations/perceptions. They are somehow different from mine, especially if you equate 'divine' with 'good'.

Can you define 'good'? Can you define 'divine'? Can you define the 'Unknown'?

And of course your question still remains, because only YOU can answer it for yourself.

This is my perspective.

You have my best wishes for your quest.

A.

zoas23
01-26-2012, 01:26 AM
Hi Friends,
My next question is another aspect of this same thought:
Can a person make the stone and remain aligned with evil?


I think that, as many things, it is reasonable to take your question to Plato.

Plato himself had the idea that it was impossible to know the greater Good and choose to act in an evil way; that knowing that which is Good (with a capital G) immediatly meant becoming a good person.
And that evil was nothing but ignorance... and that good was wisdom. So it didn't make any kind of sense to him that someone could be wise and decided to act in an ignorant way. He thought that it was impossible.
(this same idea was mostly taken later by several Gnostic banches, which had the opinion that the Gnosis of God and Redemption were mostly the same thing).

And Aristotle was mostly the first one who said that Plato (he actually said "Socrates") was wrong. That knowing good and choosing evil was possible, mostly due to the passions that humans have.

And then a lot of Philosophers who were by far closer to Plato than they were to Aristotle thought very much like Aristotle on this specific subject (I am currently reading Martinez de Pasqually's "Treatise on the reintegration of beings", which is very neo-platonic in nature, but its key theory is that knowing good and choosing evil is indeed possible). I simply mention this example because he's mostly platonic, but follows very much the idea of Aristotle when it comes to this specific subject.

I don't have a definitive opinion, but Hugh Grant cheated on Elizabeth Hurley with a prostitute that didn't even look specially attractive.
(this last phrase is mostly a joke)

Moshe
01-26-2012, 01:31 AM
In my opinion No!
There is no polarity in Oneness.

Dev, allow me a slight addendum.

In Oneness, there is Male and Female and they are unified into a whole which is NEITHER of them - ie - a balance neutral -
however, they still exist as individual as well.
((When comes the Great Age of Oneness here on Earth and in the Universe,
we will not revert back to a place where there is no thing... no male, no female. what would be the point of that?))


Also it depends on how we define evil. From the perspective of a highly enlightened being a murderer might not be considered evil, only stupid... naive like a little baby. Evil is really only self-mutilation if we believe in the Oneness. What we do to others we do to ourselves. Is it evil to hurt oneself, or stupid?
:cool:

I'd like the definition of evil to be simple - that which is outside of God, that which is not Love, that which seeks to destroy what is God's, what is Love...

there are some people and their actions, their premeditated, chosen, intentional actions, that no matter how you cut it, are simply evil. those actions grow their allegiance with evil.
Eventualy, a person does enough of this sort of evil, it corrupts their soul so far that it is questionable if they can ever come back.

The more highly ranked the evil gets, the more intelligent it is.
Although, I must agree with you, that anything evil is, by its very nature, pretty dumb.

Moshe
01-26-2012, 01:48 AM
You appear to have a good grasp on things (imo), so it should come as no surprise that even a person that is wicked, could create a stone that transmutes metals, and even may cure and prolong life - but it would not be THE Stone as we know it - i.e. it will not possess the Wisdom/Truth, it is merely a tool used by a negative-working artist. I personally think such is the reason for the some of the old Roman Catholic alchemists (cardinals, bishops etc..) who made many archemical tools (i say archemical only to denote its lacking the full Wisdom of the Truth of Life/Good/Love) and such people, even possessing such high-powered trinkets, still meet their end, and sometimes meet them because of said trinkets.

For this reason, ive always been a firm believer in the "secret"/Art/Truth protects itself, but the desire for its power is what is problematic, for many (wicked). They may seek and find a tool of power, but not the Glory of the One/All - but in their search cause much sorrow and death. Because the Truth is Good - it will later work around to the overall good, its the name of the game of sacrifice and balance, as you said - the evil has a purpose, but it is still an illusion of sorts - a child beating its head against the wall of Truth, and while the wall wont cease, how much damage is caused by the beating? It can be rebuilt and reinforced - but until all is made as perfect as the Stone, there is a cost, which we hope to minimize. (or atleast heal)
As i said, you seem to have a good grasp on the key concepts, so i'd thing you'd answer your own question - but in any event i hope ive helped some. :)
~Seth-Ra

You have helped. It has confirmed my feelings. My biggest question was "can a wicked person possessing the knowledge perform the act of creating the stone?",
And I see now that indeed, a wicked person with ill intentions can arrive at the Stone but it will not be a highly evolved stone aligned with the Love of the Creator. It would simply act according to the laws of nature it was forced into by the will of the archemist.
And this stone would grant them an extention of their wishes, but it would lead ultimately to empowering their eventual demise, as all that is unaligned with the
Love of the Creator must eventually come to an (horrid) end.

I see this "stone" created by such a wicked person, in the same way that evil emulates good.
it may look and sound and act like it, but inside it is all corrupted and unholy.

Thanks ~Seth-Ra.

Moshe
01-26-2012, 01:56 AM
I think that, as many things, it is reasonable to take your question to Plato.
Plato himself had the idea that it was impossible to know the greater Good and choose to act in an evil way; that knowing that which is Good (with a capital G) immediatly meant becoming a good person.
And that evil was nothing but ignorance... and that good was wisdom. So it didn't make any kind of sense to him that someone could be wise and decided to act in an ignorant way. He thought that it was impossible. (this same idea was mostly taken later by several Gnostic banches, which had the opinion that the Gnosis of God and Redemption were mostly the same thing).
And Aristotle was mostly the first one who said that Plato (he actually said "Socrates") was wrong. That knowing good and choosing evil was possible, mostly due to the passions that humans have.
And then a lot of Philosophers who were by far closer to Plato than they were to Aristotle thought very much like Aristotle on this specific subject (I am currently reading Martinez de Pasqually's "Treatise on the reintegration of beings", which is very neo-platonic in nature, but its key theory is that knowing good and choosing evil is indeed possible). I simply mention this example because he's mostly platonic, but follows very much the idea of Aristotle when it comes to this specific subject.

I don't have a definitive opinion, but Hugh Grant cheated on Elizabeth Hurley with a prostitute that didn't even look specially attractive.
(this last phrase is mostly a joke)

Ha! Very funny. And I appreciate the Plato references.
I lean toward Plato's idea. Because if a person had complete Wisdom, I mean TOTAL wisdom, would they err?

And are not the passions somewhat fed by the drive of a notion which is just an illusion?
I mean, let's say that prostitue was the most attractive, sexiest woman that had ever walked the earth.
And Hugh Grant's marriage was based strictly on complete and total Love with Elizabeth Hurley.
Wouldn't he see through the temptation to lie with the the prostitute as only an illusion of lust,
and the love of his marriage would nullify such a choice?

Pleroma
01-26-2012, 02:02 AM
Johan Grashof ~ The Greater and Lesser Edifyer

Our Art and Science is so divine and supernatural (understand, after the Composition) that it has never been possible to understand through which means it could or might be able to exist, even by those who have been or still are the wisest of the wise, unless they have been previously enlightened by God. For in this point all of our sense and natural reason shatters. However, in order that you may be further introduced to and instructed in this, as I have promised, I will teach you thoroughly and inform you as much as is granted and permitted me now to disclose and reveal. You may then appeal further in accord with my guidance, most diligently to the Almighty and Most High with fervent prayer, for from him come all treasures of wisdom. At that time, without doubt, you will be enlightened... However, such an exalted gift is not given to everyone, and accordingly each man must make his own reckoning and test himself well, before injury overtakes him and harms him: let him heed who can…

Behold, with this you may cure all vegetables, make all unfruitful trees fruitful, and turn winter to summer and summer to winter. That is, in winter you can have all the plants which are otherwise only provided by summer. Indeed, you can make a tree bear five or six times in a year; you can make a good plant from a bad one, a young fresh tree from an old rotten one, a bitter apple sweet, turn pears to cherries, and cherries again to pears, and thus transform all plants and trees into one another.

In the second place, you can turn all imperfect metals into good ones, that is, into gold and silver, and indeed, into so much that you are not able to express the amount. For one part will tincture not merely ten thousand parts, but rather several hundred thousand parts, and this by means of multiplication.

In the third place, you can liberate men from all diseases, turn an old man into a young one, and make a healthy man from a sick one. You can transform the mind and thoughts of men, and make the most pious man from the wickedest knave.

And whatever you might think of all of this, it is not great but rather insignificant in comparison with what follows, for the words of Hermes have not yet been sufficiently explicated.

Listen, for now we will advance to the supernatural. This is the key to open heaven and earth, that you may enter into the highest firmament of heaven, into the center of the earth, and into the depths of the ocean. You can see through every mountain, valley, leaf, grass, animal, man, etc, and in short through everything, as though you were looking through a piece of glass. You can learn the characteristics of everything, you will master heaven and earth, all spirits will be obedient to you, they will have to serve you and do your will. You can also come to know everything, both present and future (as much as God permits), which means that you can create the world and receive the power of the same. However this may seem, it is knowable, for it is magic and supernatural. As I have already said, when you are granted the success of attaining the completion of the natural, then you may go on to experience the supernatural. Thus you now possess what I have taught you, and, considering how poorly you have dealt with it before, guard yourself against this, and be warned.

Moshe
01-26-2012, 02:06 AM
Moshe,
These are your interpretations/perceptions. They are somehow different from mine, especially if you equate 'divine' with 'good'.
Can you define 'good'? Can you define 'divine'? Can you define the 'Unknown'?
And of course your question still remains, because only YOU can answer it for yourself.
This is my perspective.
You have my best wishes for your quest.
A.

I'd like to answer your questions about defining things with this Taoist quote (which I memorized from a Ninja book I read a long time ago - hope I remember correctly)


The Way of the Tao is not the Eternal Way.
It cannot be defined or explained.
It can only be experienced.

I may or may not be able to define those things you've written above.
To me, it is not about defining them. Me defining them does not change how they exist in Creation, because I didn't create them, thus
they are objectively there. They are to be experienced.

I have experience of the Divine. The Divine feels and is to me, Good.

To try to define that statement seems to me, pointless.
I don't mean that in an offensive way, simply to say, that as I sit here, trying to think of defining Good,
it seems pointless to me... it just seems so obvious.

Thank you Androgynous.
You have my best wishes too.

solomon levi
01-26-2012, 02:45 AM
I do not believe the stone can be made by a person who is not equal to its vibration.
Without going into alchemy vs ormus, I like the idea of superconductivity - that it will
allow no foreign fields to pass through it. And while i practice both internal and lab
alchemy, I feel certain the stone can be created internally alone, and how would the polarity
of evil do that (oneness).
Frankly, the more One I see, the less evil I am able to perceive/interpret as evil.

Seth-Ra
01-26-2012, 03:14 AM
You have helped. It has confirmed my feelings. My biggest question was "can a wicked person possessing the knowledge perform the act of creating the stone?",
And I see now that indeed, a wicked person with ill intentions can arrive at the Stone but it will not be a highly evolved stone aligned with the Love of the Creator. It would simply act according to the laws of nature it was forced into by the will of the archemist.
And this stone would grant them an extention of their wishes, but it would lead ultimately to empowering their eventual demise, as all that is unaligned with the
Love of the Creator must eventually come to an (horrid) end.

I see this "stone" created by such a wicked person, in the same way that evil emulates good.
it may look and sound and act like it, but inside it is all corrupted and unholy.

Thanks ~Seth-Ra.

No problem. :)

It is indeed true that Evil destroys itself - such is how the Creator set it into motion. His judgements are Just/True - and His love; perfect. So perfect, that each person may seek their own path, while He lays out the Pattern before their eyes, in Nature, in Art, and all within the soul, yet allowing them the free will to destroy themselves if they see fit. Dev is right - it seems dumb. On the flip side its sacrifice, and while they are willing ones unto their own rebellions, the Pattern still catches them and uses such equivalence to transmute the whole. So even in that, they have a purpose/role/job which is Good. Maybe even enough to redeem them on the other side of it all, but that is merely an idea out of my control or knowledge. ;)

Like in the LOTR - Golem's corruption led to him to stop Frodo in the cave, and the ring's own power brought it and its minion (Golem) back into its own destructive fire - all the Good guys had to do, was move forward, and then let the powers play out. The power of Good may not always be as flashy and vulgar, but its always the beginning and end of the story. Subtle, beautiful, elegant, loving, Life. All else is folly to be transmuted - one way or another. :cool:

lol ive rambled on for to long :o

Anyway, glad to be of service. :D



~Seth-Ra

III
01-26-2012, 04:25 AM
I'd like to answer your questions about defining things with this Taoist quote (which I memorized from a Ninja book I read a long time ago - hope I remember correctly)



I may or may not be able to define those things you've written above.
To me, it is not about defining them. Me defining them does not change how they exist in Creation, because I didn't create them, thus
they are objectively there. They are to be experienced.

I have experience of the Divine. The Divine feels and is to me, Good.

To try to define that statement seems to me, pointless.
I don't mean that in an offensive way, simply to say, that as I sit here, trying to think of defining Good,
it seems pointless to me... it just seems so obvious.

Thank you Androgynous.
You have my best wishes too.


Hi Moshe,

The Way of the Tao is not the Eternal Way.
It cannot be defined or explained.
It can only be experienced.

Another translation:

The Way that can be told of is not an unvarying way;
The names that can be named are not unvarying names
.It was from the Nameless that Heaven and Earth sprang;
The named is but the mother that rears the ten thousand creatures, each after its kind.

I have friend who is a fellow mystic and was in military intelligence who spoke multiple languages who translated the Tao himself. He said the best translation he could come up with as a mystic is:

The Tao that can be spoken is not the never ending Tao.

I don't remember the rest.

Just an aside on language was a story he told about when he was translating E.German messages and radio traffic. There was a lot of excitment about the soon to arrive new "devices" for some sort of emergency. The word, as many German words are, was a colloquial compound of several other words. Nobody was familiar with it. It sounded like some kind of weapons system, and they were expecting a number of them for delivery to the base and appeared very excited about it. The debate amongst the several translators had been going on for several days and these new systems were due to arrive. They were getting very worried and went over and over the multiple messages in which it was mentioned. He was called in on it to bring a fresh perspective on it. He caught a previously ignored reference in an early message, to "long grass" that the others had thought was a code phrase. Their old "devices had broken" and the grass was out of control long and they had ordered several new riding mowers for the base. Meanings can be subtle and context specific. They were looking for a cold war weapons meaning rather than a maintenance machine for mowing grass.

Moshe
01-26-2012, 09:15 PM
I do not believe the stone can be made by a person who is not equal to its vibration.
Without going into alchemy vs ormus, I like the idea of superconductivity - that it will
allow no foreign fields to pass through it. And while i practice both internal and lab
alchemy, I feel certain the stone can be created internally alone, and how would the polarity
of evil do that (oneness).
Frankly, the more One I see, the less evil I am able to perceive/interpret as evil.

for me, it is a little less in some ways, and more in others.
On the one hand, as I progress along my path, some things I used to think were evil or bad, fall away, as my ego, my fragmented self falls away.
But on the other hand, the evil on this planet becomes more and more obvious, more clear. That which before, I was unable to detect in the world around,
because it existed in me, I am more able to see more clearly now that it is no longer a part of me.

I would think this would be the case with the Adept.
Think about the actions and teachings of Jesus (Yeshua).
He was throwing evil out left and right, and calling it out.
No ambiguity there.

Chenkel
01-26-2012, 11:37 PM
dev made some good points:


In my opinion No!
There is no polarity in Oneness.

And since it’s not the sort of thing that can just be handed over, the idea of it being used for some sort of destructive purpose, seems moot.


I'd like the definition of evil to be simple - that which is outside of God, that which is not Love, that which seeks to destroy what is God's, what is Love...

Exactly right IMO

What I would half-disagree with dev on is that “there is no polarity in Oneness”. What he’s saying is absolutely true. But to me the idea of Oneness is the same as concord, is the same as God, is the same as good. On the other hand there is a state of manyness, which is the same as discord, which is the same as evil (even though the word sounds kinda harsh in this context). To me this ebb and flow of concord and discord is the same as the alchemist’s solve et coagula. So there’s oneness=coagulated=TheOne(God); and manyness=disolved=Lack of Oneness(God). ie. There is no such thing as darkness, just lack of light. There's no such thing as evil, just lack of good. There's no such thing as manyness, just lack of oneness. More on this can be found in the writings of Empedocles.

In alchemical writings, no one is hesitant to give warnings or to call out pseudo-alchemists on their crazyness. But I’ve never read any account of a warning not to use the stone for evil or to protect it from evil folks. Only the reiteration that it’s only found by the grace of God. So I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it.

A: Alchemy does attract the best and the worst - but only one of those gets anywhere.
A: All stones are one “but they’re not the same; well we hurt eachother and we’ll do it again. You say love is the temple; love the higher law....”
A: There is no scenario outside of Skyrim where someone could steal an alchemist’s elixir of life.

rogerc
01-27-2012, 01:00 AM
Good and evil are not just opposites to be re-united in any alchemical sense, they are not fractured pieces from a bigger whole...anyone that speaks of them as just opposites, like light and dark.....well they have never really known true evil........I think in this regard there are probably none among you who have ever come face to face with true and pure evil.......it is pure and unsatiated hatred of mankind, it has no end, it blows without intermission, it wants nothing from you save than the complete failure of mankind to realize his higher genius and Gods plan, for that reason, Satan, is called the enemy of man.

Evil, it feeds off hate and fear, it relishes in suffering, failure and downtroddenness, it knows no peace, it hates happiness, it lives in the deepest pit of human depravity, and it is there that most who have known it, have met with it, it targets those who do the most good and those with the most potential to do good, it is the enemy of love.

By cons, God who is good is pure love.

I have witnessed true evil first hand in possessed individuals.....they know the future, they know things about you that you have never told anybody, their bodies are usually contorted until the demon is driven out of them, they have power over this world and physical objects that no fakir even with the greatest amount of training could ever hope to match. Humans who are possesed can receive burns from contact with objects of faith, demons are driven out by faith and love. I know there are alot of people out there these days that are faithless, and don't believe in God, but make no mistake about it, there is a war over your soul, but you will never know neither good or evil because you are lukewarm and neither side has use for you. Humans can do enough damage to themselves or their souls in life that upon death there is or can be no redemption, no path back to the light, they become demons themselves.

As for your question Moshe, the stone can and has fallen into the possesion of wicked people, they did not posses the wisdom to fashion it themselves obviously, but was left behind on occasion to be found.....either sealed up in a tomb with its maker and later unearthed or unwittingly fell into the wrong hands by some unfortunate turn of events....at any rate these people whose possesion it came into never knew enough to replicate it once they had squandered it, and they usually got themselves into so much trouble that they met with horrible and untimely ends.

Chenkel
01-27-2012, 01:46 AM
As for your question Moshe, the stone can and has fallen into the possesion of wicked people, they did not posses the wisdom to fashion it themselves obviously, but was left behind on occasion to be found.....either sealed up in a tomb with its maker and later unearthed or unwittingly fell into the wrong hands by some unfortunate turn of events....at any rate these people whose possesion it came into never knew enough to replicate it once they had squandered it, and they usually got themselves into so much trouble that they met with horrible and untimely ends.

Where are you getting this information from?

Pleroma
01-27-2012, 02:48 PM
http://www.robertphoenix.com/content/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/alchemicalmoon.jpg
This does not look like good and evil...looks like male and female.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/GIORDANO%2C_Luca_fallen_angels.jpg
Does this look like satan is standing by the side of archangel michael? no i think Androgynus story is incorrect.

Andro
01-27-2012, 03:05 PM
Does this look like satan is standing by the side of archangel michael? no i think Androgynus story is incorrect.

What story are you referring to? If it's the Separator story, the polarities in your lower image are fighting each other, just like in the story.

There is a THIRD component to all this (re-read the story if so inclined), who's Archetypal Function most people here seem to be missing.

Well, way it goes...

:cool:

Andro
01-27-2012, 06:05 PM
This does not look like good and evil... looks like male and female.


There is a THIRD component to all this.

I may prove interesting to check out THIS THREAD (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2043-The-Third-Gender-My-Psychedelic-Experience&highlight=gender) :)

Pleroma
01-27-2012, 06:34 PM
I may prove interesting to check out THIS THREAD (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2043-The-Third-Gender-My-Psychedelic-Experience&highlight=gender) :)

Yea male and female, not good and evil.... it wouldn't make sense if it was a polarity of good and evil, then that would make me evil? Am i evil then?

Andro
01-27-2012, 06:45 PM
Yea male and female, not good and evil.... it wouldn't make sense if it was a polarity of good and evil, then that would make me evil? Am i evil then?

Of course this doesn't make you 'evil', especially as I (personally) perceive this to be a very relative term.

'Good' and 'Evil' are IMO terms that we are programmed to project upon the Original Abstract and Archetypal Oppo-Sames of Creation.

Discovering, understanding and internalizing those 'Primordial' Oppo-Sames, may lead to a significant and radical change of perception.

Another example - quoth Kipling:


"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster,
And treat those two imposters just the same."

Pleroma
01-27-2012, 07:02 PM
Of course this doesn't make you 'evil', especially as I (personally) perceive this to be a very relative term.

'Good' and 'Evil' are IMO terms that we are programmed to project upon the Original Abstract and Archetypal Oppo-Sames of Creation.

Discovering, understanding and internalizing those 'Primordial' Oppo-Sames, may lead to a significant and radical change of perception.

Another example - quoth Kipling:

Your confusing me. I don't buy your separator story. Since when do we need evil to do the Great Work?
Your story confused me and made me think i was evil. i think its male and female which makes the son. so moshe is right, God is good. Not good and evil.

Pleroma
01-27-2012, 07:23 PM
By cons, God who is good is pure love.

What do you mean roger? Are you saying that God is not love?

Andro
01-27-2012, 07:24 PM
Your confusing me.

Not, I am not the one confusing you.


I don't buy your separator story.

Great! Cause I'm not 'selling' anything :)


Since when do we need evil to do the Great Work?

We don't. I advise you to get a deeper understanding of ALLEGORY. This makes a world of a difference between Esoterica and Exoterica.

What we need for the Great Work are:

The Primordial Polarity Oppo-Sames (call them what you will), represented by The Scales/Libra/Venus,

AND

'The Separator' (or call it what you will), represented by The Sword/Aries/Mars.

(In the many guises in which those polarities are expressed in the Realm of Matter)


Your story confused me and made me think i was evil. i think its male and female which makes the son. so moshe is right, God is good. Not good and evil.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/WhereMagicHappens.jpg

Good Luck and Best Wishes on your quest.

Pleroma
01-27-2012, 07:44 PM
Not, I am not the one confusing you.

Great! Cause I'm not 'selling' anything

Don't get all wise and smart with me.


We don't. I advise you to get a deeper understanding of ALLEGORY. This makes a world of a difference between Esoterica and Exoterica.

What we need for the Great Work are:

The Primordial Polarity Oppo-Sames (call them what you will), represented by The Scales/Libra/Venus,

AND

'The Separator' (or call it what you will), represented by The Sword/Aries/Mars.

(In the many guises in which those polarities are expressed in the Realm of Matter)

Ok you can just say male and female...

And whats with the picture?

Seth-Ra
01-27-2012, 08:04 PM
RogerC makes some good points, especially about any who has seen Evil. (Roger, we should talk about that sometime, if youre interested - I have seen quite a good deal since i was a child, and continue to do so.)

Androg makes some good points to, and while im not going to get into the gender deal, out of professional respect for my friend ( ;) ), i will simply say:

Mat 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.

Gal 3:28
There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one in Christ Jesus.

So its really nothing. ^.~ :)
Much like Evil - im not saying its action does not exist, nor that the perpetrators do not, as i know they do, but...

Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Evil is real, but it is folly, and as Roger and i have said - it leads to its own end by its, as Dev said; stupidity. (i think thats a fair mixing of our responses - feel free to say otherwise, im just trying to build unity. :) )
It has a purpose, to separate, or destroy - breakdown - solve, but it does so by design, so that Good/Order may be more perfectly built unto perfection. :)




~Seth-Ra

Moshe
01-27-2012, 09:44 PM
Good and evil are not just opposites to be re-united in any alchemical sense, they are not fractured pieces from a bigger whole...anyone that speaks of them as just opposites, like light and dark.....well they have never really known true evil........I think in this regard there are probably none among you who have ever come face to face with true and pure evil.......it is pure and unsatiated hatred of mankind, it has no end, it blows without intermission, it wants nothing from you save than the complete failure of mankind to realize his higher genius and Gods plan, for that reason, Satan, is called the enemy of man.
Evil, it feeds off hate and fear, it relishes in suffering, failure and downtroddenness, it knows no peace, it hates happiness, it lives in the deepest pit of human depravity, and it is there that most who have known it, have met with it, it targets those who do the most good and those with the most potential to do good, it is the enemy of love.

Precisely my feelings / experience of it too.
I know this sort of evil to exist. the more clever it is, the more cloaked it is.
It cannot operate in the light, in plain view. It must disguise itself as something else.
However, it is now being more obvious, more unbridled in the world.
The # of severe possessions has dramatically increased. The government is dismissing all attempts at covering up their extreme control
and complete disregard for law and the constitution.
This means that the great "reckoning" is coming, because when evil begins to really show itself, it is being revealed,
and it cannot survive long. Like fungus that thrives in the dark, it dies in the light.



By cons, God who is good is pure love.

I have witnessed true evil first hand in possessed individuals.....they know the future, they know things about you that you have never told anybody, their bodies are usually contorted until the demon is driven out of them, they have power over this world and physical objects that no fakir even with the greatest amount of training could ever hope to match. Humans who are possesed can receive burns from contact with objects of faith, demons are driven out by faith and love. I know there are alot of people out there these days that are faithless, and don't believe in God, but make no mistake about it, there is a war over your soul, but you will never know neither good or evil because you are lukewarm and neither side has use for you. Humans can do enough damage to themselves or their souls in life that upon death there is or can be no redemption, no path back to the light, they become demons themselves.

I really appreciate your words Roger, because there is a lot of hullabaloo out there about the balance being good and evil, and stuff like, and that there is no evil.
Or... if you perceive evil, it means it is inside of you. What a load! And if such statements get popular, which they have, and they do, then, if you see it, you're the bad one.
very clever, the devil is.

I confess, I was pretty new agey when I was much younger. I thought evil may exist, but i wasn't sure. i hadn't decided.
then a few things happened in my life, around the same time, like a wake-up call, and I was "shown" by my Guides / Angelic beings, it was evil operating.
I then watched "The Exocism of Emily Rose" and I finally made a stand and decided that yes, I see, evil DOES very very much exist.
It was then I went from lukewarm, to recognizing the existing of good and evil. it was then I began to be able to discern the two.
The result was tremendous. My appreciation, my experience, and my closeness to God and the Divine Angelic realms greatly increased,
cause it was no longer a big undifferentiated soup of evil intermingling with good.
There was a clear distinction. It was a huge step forward for me.
And it is a must for any philosopher of nature.



As for your question Moshe, the stone can and has fallen into the possesion of wicked people, they did not posses the wisdom to fashion it themselves obviously, but was left behind on occasion to be found.....either sealed up in a tomb with its maker and later unearthed or unwittingly fell into the wrong hands by some unfortunate turn of events....at any rate these people whose possesion it came into never knew enough to replicate it once they had squandered it, and they usually got themselves into so much trouble that they met with horrible and untimely ends.

That makes sense to me Roger, and resonates.
Thank you.

Pleroma
01-28-2012, 01:46 AM
http://www.conspirazzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/tree.jpg

No where do i see in this tree of life anything about good and evil being a polarity.
It has Beauty in the middle, a marriage of male and female, not nothingness.....

Moshe
01-28-2012, 02:07 AM
No where do i see in this tree of life anything about good and evil being a polarity.
It has Beauty in the middle, a marriage of male and female, not nothingness.....

You're right Pleroma.
The Tree of Life is Balanced Positive - there's no evil in it.

To use the Kabbalistic metaphor, when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden,
the Oneness, the Union and harmony of the male - female polarities, was split -
We can say the Separator came in. (for Androgynous ;) )
Then, in that state, male operates without the harmony of the female.
And the female, without the positive attributes of the male. (In the duality world, outside of Eden,
male tries to dominate, it's his nature. female normally gets suppressed)

This is what leads to being manipulated, tempted, and misled by evil.

Seth-Ra
01-28-2012, 02:30 AM
http://www.conspirazzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/tree.jpg

No where do i see in this tree of life anything about good and evil being a polarity.
It has Beauty in the middle, a marriage of male and female, not nothingness.....

Ah, but its missing something...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/Ktreewnames.png/192px-Ktreewnames.png


Da'at or Daas ("Knowledge", Hebrew: דעת [ˈdaʕaθ]) in Jewish mysticism, called Kabbalah, is the location (the mystical state) where all ten sephirot in the Tree of Life are united as one.
In Daat, all sefirot exist in their perfected state of infinite sharing. The three sephirot of the left column that would receive and conceal the Divine Light, instead share and reveal it. Since all sephirot radiate infinite self-giving Divine Light, it is no longer possible to distinguish one sefira from another. Thus they are one.
Da'at is not always depicted in representations of the Sefirot, and could in a sense be considered an "empty slot" into which the gem of any other sefirot can be placed. Properly, the Divine Light is always shining, but not all humans can see it. The concealment or revelation of the Divine Light shining through Daat does not actually happen in Daat itself. It only seems that way from the human perspective within Malkuth. The perception of change can only occur in Malkuth. Humans who become self-giving like the Light become able to see it, and for them the benefits of Daat's Light seem "revealed". However, humans who remain selfish cannot see it, and for them its benefits seem "hidden".

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%27at)

Furthermore - that is one sided - lets see the other side of the Sephiroth; enter, the Qliphoth:


The Hebrew term Qeliphoth (also Qelippot Klippot, Heb. קליפות) is a plural noun literally meaning ‘peels’, ‘shells’, ‘husks’, (from singular: קליפה qelippah "husk") which refer to the representation of evil or impure spiritual forces in Jewish mysticism.

In the Kabbalistic spiritual cosmology, the Kelipot are metaphorical “shells” surrounding holiness. They are spiritual obstacles receiving their existence from God only in an external, rather than internal manner. Divinity in Judaism connotes revelation of God's true unity, while the shells conceal holiness, as a peel conceals the fruit within. They are therefore synonymous with idolatry, the root of impurity through ascribing false dualism in the Divine, and with the Sitra Achra (סטרא אחרא The ‘Other Side’), the perceived realm opposite to holiness. They emerge in the descending Chain of Being through Tzimtzum contractions and concealments of the Divine Light, as part of the purpose of Creation. In this they also have beneficial properties, as peel protects the fruit, restraining the Divine flow from being dissipated. Kabbalah distinguishes between two realms in Kelipah, the completely impure and the intermediate.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qliphoth)

A natural analogy of fruit; fitting for a tree showing good and evil in the flow of Eternal Life. ;)

In my earlier days i drew a tree to represent that - i used the idea of the Qliphoth as the roots - similar to the analogy of the shell; the baser, that you must pass through to get to the fruit - the Sephiroth.

My tree's (sephirot and qliphoth) were not perfect - but the concept being demonstrated is key.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=103&d=1244159509

(http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?761-Some-drawings)

Solve/breakdown first - thus heading towards the death, (roots etc - at the foundation of every lush forest, is a black decaying soil full of nutrients), this then gets remade (coagula) into progression if an Artist moves it so. Thus the energy spirals, each level of creation, gets broken down again - until perfection is achieved and acted on the singular-dual "now"/"present"/subject/matter etc.

Hope that makes matters a little more clear maybe. :)




~Seth-Ra

Pleroma
01-28-2012, 02:45 AM
Hi seth-ra

I dont know much about kabbalah or sephiroth..but i posted that photo against Andrygonus story of the Separator.
He makes God seem like hes just power.

Seth-Ra
01-28-2012, 03:01 AM
Hi seth-ra

I dont know much about kabbalah or sephiroth..but i posted that photo against Andrygonus story of the Separator.
He makes God seem like hes just power.

I understand - im not trying to hop in the middle of anyone(s) argument, just providing a 3rd-party perspective/information. God is power/energy/Light - He is also Love/harmony/balance/unity - He is also Truth/All that IS, as such being His nature - He is in everything, all that is allowed, all that exists. Even the wicked are allowed for a role which is important to the whole, and thus is good to the extent of purpose.

From what ive heard and discussed with Androg before, he seems to emphasize personal relations with Spirit, and personal experience of each person, so i dont think he meant/intended to say/mean that it (God/Light/Truth/The Stone etc) is a static, non-carrying force/principle, but was trying to use such an analogy to demonstrate the unity/wholeness of All things as a fundamental concept/force in that light. (Androg - please feel free to correct me if im mistaken, as i would not dare speak for anyone, as we are all capable of doing so for ourselves.) This is merely my interpretation of what ive understood you to say in the past - does this resonate "correctly"? :)




~Seth-Ra

Pleroma
01-28-2012, 03:33 AM
maybe there are different levels of enlightenment...and different stones.
Abraham the Jew says the alkahest liquor is sweeter than sugar. i wonder if all are the same.

DanceofRebirth
01-28-2012, 03:38 AM
I can and will admit, I don't tend to 'buy into' the concept of Evil as an alive individual (Satan) any more than I do Good being an individual (God). I see a wash of gray mostly because all things are One. This is a principal of Alchemy, is it not? How can there be Evil and Good among the All when all is Unified? Intentions of harm? Intentions of hate and pain and malice? Oh, yes. But pure Evil as it's own thing, it's own substance? No. I find that to be separate from the Male/Female allegory that's been mentioned, as the black/white or male/female is simply an organizing of energies of the One. If all is to be one, then Good and Evil can never really be 100% separate, so then we see shades of action and intention in theory. I don't and won't site movies as a source of witnessing this, as that's hollywood and can't portray true feeling and encounters with demons, spirits, or anything else of the kind. I've encountered my share of vile ghosts or similar experiences, but in the end to find the source of their problems to be the hideous death they've experienced and relived in their process of dying too many times so that it has twisted them into the 'evil' creatures they became. Can we not see the same in murders of the alive human race, the scheming psychos who delight in tearing people limb from limb in their own depraved acts of joy that we see as disgusting and all together 'evil' and in the same factor, what if that is their way of seeking God? Is it still vile if it's sacrificial, or if they do so to themselves without harming any other living being? Is it still 'evil' if they are only attempting to bear witness to the One that *they* see, even if we do not?

I can completely agree that these labels are nothing more than relative considerations of the world around us. The point of view of both is only considered that from the stance one takes. I have never witnessed pure Evil nor pure Good. If we dip into the 'why' enough, then IMO, we never really will.

tl;dr, I agree with Solomon~
Frankly, the more One I see, the less evil I am able to perceive/interpret as evil.


Androg, I'm saving that picture for future reference. If I print it out and paste it to my wall near my study will you be okay with this? XD It's too perfect a reminder to maintain ourselves, but keep an open mind because all things happen when we are ready for them and not before hand. <3!



And just to clear it up, the Daoism stuff you've got there Moshe, can't be entirely Ninja, as Daoism was Chinese and Ninja is Japanese (perhaps a mixing of the two?). However, it only strengthensyour quote and I think that was rather straight up solid for not having a book in front of you. The Dao can not be explained because to explain it is to limit it. This is not to say that it can't be studied, but to truly master the Dao is to be without books, without notes, without records, and without effort. The greatest action of the Dao is non-action. One could suggest that the way of the Dao is eternal, but not if one calls it the Dao. Great stuff. The following is not the best translation, but it's a relative agreement in kind.



di yi ke dao
第 一 课 道

dao ke dao feichang dao. ming ke ming feichang ming. wu ming
道,可 道, 非 常 道。 名, 可 名, 非 常 名。 无 名,
tian di zhi shi you ming wan wu zhi mu chang wu yu yi guan qi
天 地 之 始。 有 名, 万 物 之 母。 常 [无] 欲,以 观 其
miao changyouyu yiguanqijiao ciliangzhe tongchu eryi ming
妙。 常 [有] 欲,以 观 其 徼。 此 两 者, 同 出 而 异 名。
tong wei zhi xuan xuan zhi you xuan zhong miao zhi men
同 谓 之 [玄], 玄 之 又 玄, 众 妙 之 门。

Lesson One The Dao

The Dao can be called the Dao and can also not be called the Dao. The Dao can be named the Dao and can not be named the Dao as well. The nameless Dao created the heavens and the earth. Having had its name fixed, it (the mother) will create all things. Ever lacking desire in his cultivation, one is able to keep quiet so that he can see its mystery. Always wanting in his cultivation, one can not keep quiet and what he sees is limited though he can see something. These two kinds of people cultivate themselves but with different results. Both call it profundity. Spinning round and round up to the left, one's soul will, in time, enter the gate to the Dao. The doors to the mystery are numerous, and one can enter one of them provided he cultivates himself assiduously.

Moshe
01-28-2012, 04:12 AM
I don't and won't site movies as a source of witnessing this, as that's hollywood and can't portray true feeling and encounters with demons, spirits, or anything else of the kind.

hey, the movie I spoke of, "The Exorcism of Emily Rose" - is a true story. It is not just Hollywood (they may have embellished a little).
That young girl gave her life, willingly, so that she could convey a message to humankind - that evil exists.


Can we not see the same in murders of the alive human race, the scheming psychos who delight in tearing people limb from limb in their own depraved acts of joy that we see as disgusting and all together 'evil' and in the same factor, what if that is their way of seeking God?

Ummm...
I'm not going to get into this. I have stated what I feel and believe about Evil above.

Thanks a lot for the Dao stuff.
Very cool.

Pleroma
01-28-2012, 03:05 PM
I understand - im not trying to hop in the middle of anyone(s) argument, just providing a 3rd-party perspective/information. God is power/energy/Light - He is also Love/harmony/balance/unity - He is also Truth/All that IS, as such being His nature - He is in everything, all that is allowed, all that exists. Even the wicked are allowed for a role which is important to the whole, and thus is good to the extent of purpose.

From what ive heard and discussed with Androg before, he seems to emphasize personal relations with Spirit, and personal experience of each person, so i dont think he meant/intended to say/mean that it (God/Light/Truth/The Stone etc) is a static, non-carrying force/principle, but was trying to use such an analogy to demonstrate the unity/wholeness of All things as a fundamental concept/force in that light. (Androg - please feel free to correct me if im mistaken, as i would not dare speak for anyone, as we are all capable of doing so for ourselves.) This is merely my interpretation of what ive understood you to say in the past - does this resonate "correctly"? :)




~Seth-Ra

Remember what Rogerc said about being lukewarm...

Seth-Ra
01-28-2012, 05:39 PM
The way to not be lukewarm is to know yourself, and thus your side - but that does not mean you cannot sit back and see the whole picture playing out, and the ultimate unity/good/goal of that. Two very different things.

Meditate on it all, self included, and see. :)



~Seth-Ra

Pleroma
01-28-2012, 06:16 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Batoni_sacred_heart.jpg

Isnt this the true self? the heart? again the heart is NOT GOOD AND EVIL!
look at the picture of the tree of life. Its male and female together which is BEAUTY, not NOTHINGNESS.
i dont need to meditate on it, i just need a girlfriend, to show me who God really is. Isnt that what Alchemy is all about?
the story of Androgynus is not true. i dont think having all these other realm experiences make you wise.

I forgot to mention i just seen the Sun and Moon outside today in the sky...

Seth-Ra
01-28-2012, 06:33 PM
Even in your image there is the Cross, and the Crown of Thorns around the heart - those are tools of torture and death. Even his hand bares the mark of being killed - we perceive what the mob did to Him as being "evil" - yet it was necessary and overall good. Death and rebirth is the Pattern. There is fire in the image - fire burns and destroys, until the perfected Stone is achieved - that which survives the fire.

Many only focus on the outer shell, not perceiving the internal; to use your image as a reference, many then focus on the destruction encasing the creation - the negatives, the evil, and they think of it as an equal force to good, and its not. It is merely a necessity towards the Pattern of Perfection.
Others only look within - seeing only good as being whats there, but they miss the part of needing to break down and recreate until perfection. How can you look within the heart, if you do not first open and unlock it? A sword is the same as a key for this purpose. (a cross looks a lot like a sword too - a living sword perhaps. ;) )

There are two sides, and One cohesive side of overall Truth - which makes the "nothingness" side - its no(one)thing, but All combined. Infinite All, as One. All has their own purpose, and the overall goal is a moving flow/current that heads towards perfection - is this not the very core idea of evolution/transmutation, and spiritual/physical rebirthing/resurrection? ;)




~Seth-Ra

Pleroma
01-28-2012, 07:01 PM
ok. i'm still walking the path, i would like to see the other side myself. I dont know everything, prob nothing at all.
sorry but the way you talk makes things difficult to understand, or maybe its just me. I will try to answer.


Even in your image there is the Cross, and the Crown of Thorns around the heart - those are tools of torture and death. Even his hand bares the mark of being killed - we perceive what the mob did to Him as being "evil" - yet it was necessary and overall good. Death and rebirth is the Pattern. There is fire in the image - fire burns and destroys, until the perfected Stone is achieved - that which survives the fire.

Many only focus on the outer shell, not perceiving the internal; to use your image as a reference, many then focus on the destruction encasing the creation - the negatives, the evil, and they think of it as an equal force to good, and its not. It is merely a necessity towards the Pattern of Perfection.
Others only look within - seeing only good as being whats there, but they miss the part of needing to break down and recreate until perfection. How can you look within the heart, if you do not first open and unlock it? A sword is the same as a key for this purpose. (a cross looks a lot like a sword too - a living sword perhaps. )

There are two sides, and One cohesive side of overall Truth - which makes the "nothingness" side - its no(one)thing, but All combined. Infinite All, as One. All has their own purpose, and the overall goal is a moving flow/current that heads towards perfection - is this not the very core idea of evolution/transmutation, and spiritual/physical rebirthing/resurrection?

what exactly is the purpose of evil?

Seth-Ra
01-28-2012, 07:09 PM
I apologize if my words are hard to understand - thats why i said ya should meditate on it all. :)

The purpose for evil? To put it simply: Trial by Fire. :cool: (Nice and alchemical, eh? ;) )

It also allows for other things - but this short answer suffices, to keep it simple. :)




~Seth-Ra

Awani
01-28-2012, 07:35 PM
Its male and female together which is BEAUTY, not NOTHINGNESS.
i dont need to meditate on it, i just need a girlfriend, to show me who God really is. Isnt that what Alchemy is all about?

Are you saying love is the path to god, or male/female love specifically?

:cool:

Pleroma
01-28-2012, 09:33 PM
yea from the tree of life. not romance.

Andro
01-28-2012, 09:43 PM
I don't know everything, prob nothing at all.

In all earnestness, this is a very wise thing to say - and an excellent place to get started with the Great Work.
__________________________________________________ ________

Now, about the Separator story - I understand, you don't like it. Others seem to have found it extremely useful.

But the amount of focus you have placed on it ("It's incorrect", "It's not true", "I don't believe in it") could indicate that it might have triggered a sensitive point.

Not everything works for everyone. The important thing IMO, is to invest your energy in what you feel may work for YOU.


i just need a girlfriend, to show me who God really is. Isn't that what Alchemy is all about?

Are you sure about that?

How about this (just a different perspective):

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/SecretOfLIFE.jpg

My sincere best wishes on your journey.

(I'm going to exit this conversation now)

Ciao!

Ghislain
01-28-2012, 11:57 PM
Hi seth-ra

I dont know much about kabbalah or sephiroth..but i posted that photo against Andrygonus story of the Separator.
He makes God seem like hes just power.

Staying with the theme of Kabbalah and the Tree of Life; in Timothy Hogans book, "The 32 Paths of Solomon", it says:


Masonic scholars have been quick to point out over the centuries that if we take the Hebrew words
representing the three pillars as "beauty", "strength" and "wisdom" - which are "Gomer", "Oz" and "Debar"
respectively, the first letter of each spells the word G-O-D. Therefore one of the keys to living in harmony
with God's creation is to find balance, which is likewise dramatically illustrated within the three degrees of
Freemasonry.

Associating the two outer pillars with the "Tree of Life" and the middle pillar with the "Tree of Knowledge"
then the Tree of Life teaches the duality of life and the Tree of Knowledge masters this knowledge and
utilizes it in wisdom.

IMO evil is a respective thing, if one starts from the most evil and eliminates it, then the next on the list
becomes most evil. Would your list be the same as mine?

Continuing with this train of thought eventually you arrive at the most good is also the most evil.

IMO the stone has no relevance to the "good vs evil" creation of the human mind, it just is and relates to
everything and nothing at the same time.

Ghislain

Edit: Is wisdom the separator?

rogerc
01-29-2012, 12:25 AM
what exactly is the purpose of evil?

Free will has a purpose, suffering has a purpose, human nature and the ego all have a purpose..... none of these are inherently evil, they just are not absolutely divine, thats why they exist partially away from the divine but still in his light......sin is a stain of the flesh, because the mind is prisoner to the senses, but that stain can be removed once the burden of the flesh is absolved through death, provided we have the courage to release our ties to the senses at the time of death, absolute evil on the other hand has no purpose for us. God who is one, is not good and evil combined, he is only love, only good, thus "divine".

Would we call pure evil, divine and equate it with pure good? Absolutely not.

Satans hatred and jealousy for mankind is why he was expelled from heaven. His purpose in this world and absolute evil for that matter exist to prevent man from performing the great work of mankind, the great of work of alchemy which is re-joining to his higher genius and re-claiming his divinity, and leaving the flesh and inherent sin that it carries behind permanently, it makes no difference whether you believe Satan or God exists or not, since it is only their influence that we see and feel, and that is enough, it is inescapable.

Of course good and evil are not two polar opposites of equal power, like we see allegories for in alchemy. Satan is not the enemy of God, he is the enemy of man, and with proper training he and his force can be banished by a mere mortal man, my heel bruises his head........ Gen 3:15
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel....Solomon the King, a true hermeticist, because of his knowledge of the secrets of nature, could summon and command angels and demons alike to do his bidding...... by cons, what is my power compared to that of Gods, since all knowledge and form I know is but a gift of his divine grace.

It is not just Christians and Catholics that get possesed by entities of the astral realm, it is not a matter of faith or belief or conditioning. There are new records of demon possesion because man as whole, as a race, through the degradation of morality and through deeper acts of depravity have moved the entire realm of earth further and futher from Gods grace. The kabbalah teaches that every human action serves to move Shekinah, which is the presence of God in man, either closer or further to its ultimate union with its true mate at the top of the tree of life, instead we keep her at the bottom.
every human action here on earth affects the divine realm, either promoting or hindering the union of Shekhinah and her partner -- the Holy One, blessed be he"

Shekhinah is the earth , the realm of man, with each act of sin or evil she is pushed further away from her alignment with the middle pillar, with each act of caring and compassion she draws nearer to her eventual union with the holy one.


"Kabbalah assigns the negative or harsh aspects of God to the feminine emanations. The left side of the tree, Binah, Gevurah and Hod (understanding, judgement and majesty) are collective called the Pillar of Severity. The right side is referred to as the Pillar of Mercy and contains Chokmah, Hesed and Netzach ( wisdom, lovingkindness and splendor). These negative or harsh aspects of the left as well as the more positive aspect of the right flow into the Shekinah. If the side of Severity is more powerful than Mercy, then the Shekinah can fall into evil and associate with Samael. This imbalance occurs when Israel sins. These individual acts of the people affect the balance in the divine emanations. The Shekinah being the closest to the veil between the celestial and terrestrial realms is very vulnerable to the effects of sin. Samael is in a constant battle with Tiphareth and the Shekinah over her virtue. She sometimes fights him off with the help of the other Sephiroth; however is there is much sin, she cannot fight, but willingly gives into evil. It is through the commandments that the Sephiroth are empowered to over come evil. The Kabbalist attempt to empower the Shekinah in her fight against Samuel.

Shekinah is also the harlot and great desire of Samael the devil. Samael has Lilith as his consort, but wants the Shekinah. He wants to defile her and steal her from Tiphareth. Thus the battle for her goes on between Tiphareth and Samael. The Shekinah has no, I repeat, no ideas or thoughts that are her own. She is completely at the mercy of the things below her and things above. If Israel is good, the Shekinah is uniting with her beloved, if it is bad and full of sin, then she is in Samael's bed as the harlot. The Shekinah does not control her destiny in anyway.

The Zohar explains sin through the original sin of Adam, the primordial man. Adam worshipped and partook of the Shekinah alone, and removed her from the rest of the Sephiroth, disrupting the union of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (the Shekinah) and the Tree of Life (Tiphareth). It was then that the Shekinah was first driven into exile with Adam.


I like this article by my facebook friend Theresa Ibis wrote http://www.universalkabbalah.net/Shekinah ....it clears up the issue quite nicely....here are some choice quotes that re-enforce the message.



In the Kabbalah, the name of this Divine Feminine is the Shekinah, which means ‘indwelling' and refers to the Presence or Soul of God that is with us in the world. In fact, whenever someone feels as though God is present, Kabbalists would say it is actually the Shekinah

The Shekinah plays another very important role in the story of creation, and in particular in the Great Plan of humankind. It is believed that in man's fall to a denser, less perfect state of being in the physical, the Shekinah stayed with us as we separated from God or were exiled from the ‘Garden'. Thus, the Shekinah, once again, was voluntarily removed from God/En Sof in order for us to have our experience. She has always stayed with us, wherever we were exiled or isolated or shut out, the Shekinah was always there in exile and isolation with us. Thus, the Shekinah is also in Malkuth, the Kingdom, the Salt of the Earth, the final step of creation where the energies funnel into the physical world that is our home. It is for this reason that Kabbalists often refer to Malkuth as the Bride. For the ultimate Plan and driving desire of the Universe is for the Bride, the Shekinah, to reunite with her Bridegroom, the Creator. So, the Shekinah, in addition to being the Soul of God is also the Soul of the World.
Indeed, the Shekinah is the Soul of Man, what Kabbalists call the Neshamah, for She has given a portion of Herself in order for each human to come into being in this world. In giving of Herself to humans, in this state of physical density and isolation, the World Soul becomes shattered. This shattering can be metaphorically grasped in considering what might happen to a glass alembic or flask when too much pressure is put upon in the alchemical works. Thus, the Shekinah represents the ultimate archetype of selfless sacrifice. All Her sacrifices have been for the benefit of creation so that humankind may experience this life in order to fulfill its destiny and purpose. Kabbalists, therefore, pay great respect and gratitude to the Shekinah for Her sacrifice and service by taking up the mantle or the quest to reunite the Shekinah with the Creator.

What role can we as Alchemists and Kabbalists play in this effort to reunite the Shekinah with Her Divine Mate? Kabbalistic and Alchemical philosophy say that this union can only happen with our involvement, because She is in us. By purifying, making whole, and mastering our own soul, we help to heal the shattering of the World Soul. Then, we must go beyond the self and reach out in service to others to ultimately help all of humankind heal their souls. Piece-by-piece we bring the World Soul back into a state of wholeness that can then be lifted up to an exalted state for reunion with God. This, in essence, is the Great Work of Alchemy. As we awaken the Fire within us, purify our bodies and souls, raise our vibration, we are in essence awakening the Shekinah within and freeing Her from the bonds of Malkuth (the dense, leaden physical form). Once released, Her burning desire to reunite with the Creator (which at our level of awareness is mirrored by our own desire for union with our own soul) leads to an ascension up the Tree of Life, also experienced as the Kundalini rising. Ultimately, before the union can take place, the Kabbalist/Alchemist must pass through the gates of death in order to come face-to-face with God. In Alchemy this death takes place at the Fermentation stage of the work, in Kabbalah it happens upon ‘Crossing the Abyss'. This is a spiritual death, rather than a literal physical death, though it is certainly no small matter and takes much discipline, courage, faith, and willingness to completely surrender to the Supreme Being.

When we pay homage to the Shekinah by purifying our soul and cleansing ourselves from the dross or ‘sin' of our being, then She will show us Her face



Remember I said that the senses keep the mind a prisoner to sin......perhaps to begin the work and ultimately gaze upon the face of Shekinah a Darkness Retreat would be in order.....40 days in isolation to the world of sense, the world of sin.

http://www.universal-tao.com/dark_room/DarkRoom.pdf

Awani
02-13-2012, 05:09 AM
When comes the Great Age of Oneness here on Earth and in the Universe,
we will not revert back to a place where there is no thing... no male, no female. what would be the point of that?

That is the whole point of Oneness... one being, one genderless gender etc.

;)

Moshe
02-13-2012, 02:37 PM
That is the whole point of Oneness... one being, one genderless gender etc.
;)

The one genderless gender is where we came from.
I do not think that we will return to this undifferentiated state.
The return is to where we were, and have always been, but something MORE this time...

Awani
02-13-2012, 02:44 PM
The one genderless gender is where we came from...

He he... Yes! Those days 15-25 000 years ago before the rise of the dominator culture. I do hope we go back there, but not only back. Forward as well. The digital Neanderthal spirits of the New Age!

:cool:

Andro
02-13-2012, 03:10 PM
Personally, I do not adhere to a digitalized new age... Eventually, all technology can be internalized...

Want communications? Start working on your telepathy skills!

Want transportation? Start working on your teleportation skills!

Want food? Start developing direct access to the Universal Energy Field!

Ex Aether Ra ! ! !

Awani
02-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Imagine solar powered huts of wood, connected to others via Internet across the globe (for communication), in the midst of the forest. Cars silently hovering forward across the plains carrying nomads with their solar panel tipis (so they can read in the dark). The future is not bad! People are.

With a return to the old ways, taking the best of the modern era (0-->2012), we will reach a better unity. There is no turning back. We can't go back to stone hammers. Tech has always been a human trait, but there is possibilities for Gaia approved tech, shit we haven't even imagined yet.

Although I agree with the telepathy/teleportation argument the billions of people of this world must be lured forward with lazier alternatives;)

:cool:

Salazius
02-14-2012, 08:33 AM
Eventually, all technology can be internalized...

Want communications? Start working on your telepathy skills!

Want transportation? Start working on your teleportation skills!

Want food? Start developing direct access to the Universal Energy Field!

True and I totally agree.

Alchemy is a technology, it can be internalized too.

Ghislain
02-19-2012, 12:34 PM
If this has already been posted in this thread I apologise in advance.


Morality, good, and evil

Hermes explains in Book 9 of the Corpus Hermeticum that Nous brings forth both good and evil,
depending on if he receives input from God or from the demons. God brings good, while the demons
bring evil. Among those things brought by demons are:

adultery, murder, violence to one's father, sacrilege, ungodliness, strangling, suicide from a cliff and
all such other demonic actions.

This provides a clearcut view that Hermeticism does indeed include a sense of morality. However,
the word good is used very strictly, to be restricted to use to the Supreme Good, God. It is only
God (in the sense of the Supreme Good, not The All) who is completely free of evil. Men are exempt
from having the chance of being good, for they have a body, consumed by their physical nature,
ignorant of the Supreme Good.

Among those things which are considered extremely sinful, is the focus on the material life, said to
be the only thing that offends God:

As processions passing in the road cannot achieve anything themselves yet still obstruct others, so
these men merely process through the universe, led by the pleasures of the body.

It is troublesome to oneself to have no "children". This is a symbolic description, not to mean
physical, biological children, but rather creations. Immediately before this claim, it is explained that
God is "the Father" because it has authored all things, it creates. Whether father or mother, one
must create, do something positive in their life, as the Supreme Good is a "generative power". The
curse for not having "children" is to be imprisoned to a body, neither male (active) nor female
(thoughtful), leaving that person with a type of sterility, that of being unable to accomplish
anything.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism#Morality.2C_good.2C_and_evil)

Ghislain

Moshe
02-19-2012, 02:50 PM
Ghislain, thank you for sharing. Very informative.
Good info.



Among those things which are considered extremely sinful, is the focus on the material life, said to
be the only thing that offends God:
Ghislain

In the book "The Only Planet of Choice," it is written that (I cannot find exact quote in the book, will paraphrase idea)
it is also a sin to represent God to people for one's own gain, to say "God told me this and that" in order to manipulate people into getting what the person wants.
eg God told me you all have to pay me $1000 for the welfare of your soul.
eg God has appointed me a Prophet/ Saint and you must follow me / listen to me...
stuff like that.

Ghislain, I thought it very interesting as well... the idea that one must have some form of "creation/children" in this life.
very beautiful notion.

solomon levi
02-21-2012, 03:37 AM
Your confusing me. I don't buy your separator story. Since when do we need evil to do the Great Work?
Your story confused me and made me think i was evil.



Hi seth-ra

I dont know much about kabbalah or sephiroth..but i posted that photo against Andrygonus story of the Separator.
He makes God seem like hes just power.

Hi Pleroma.
You keep saying what Androgynus does as if you have the one true interpretation of him.
This is YOUR interpretation, not a representation of Androgynus.
It would be helpful if you would distinguish between the two.
You cannot say who Androgynus is or what he means - only how he appears to your eyes
and your understanding.
As long as you presume to know Androgynus, you will fail in communication - you will see
only your image of him. That would be a shame IMO.

solomon levi
02-21-2012, 04:05 AM
what exactly is the purpose of evil?

The purpose of any opposite is to define its opposite and therefore the whole.
In other words, if there is evil, it only exists relative to good. The two compliment
eachother to define the whole, the all, the good and the evil, although in a poor way.
I say in a poor way do they reflect the whole because a polarity lacks the necessary neutrality
or third principle to accurately represent the whole. Some say that any manifestation requires
three force, positive, negative and neutral, or in alchemy, mercury, sulphur and salt, or in holy trinity
father, son and holy spirit, etc.

So some people would say evil exists to separate us from god in order that we may choose to return to god.
We cannot truly know good without its pole evil to define it, give it relevance.
So i guess some thought it necessary that if god is the good then we need a devil to be the evil.
But all this is simply saying that there is no manifestation without polarity - there must be a dance between
poles (a pole dance! :D) to have manifestation... a balance between centrifigul and centripetal forces, between
contraction and expansion, between light and dark, sun and moon, spirit and matter, etc.

vega33
02-21-2012, 09:02 AM
@Pleroma: A big thank you for reminding me of that great quote from the Greater and Lesser Edifier. It is from part 3 of the work, and reminds me that I need to reread this part of the work for my concordance. What a wonderful description of that power of Shiva omnipotent present at the center of every atom, star, galaxy, cell and creature, the sulphur capable of coagulating the one Mercury and performing the entire work. Makes me think of Eugenius Philalethes' wonderful encomium to Agrippa, in French's translation of his Three Books.

Cheers!

Moshe
02-21-2012, 07:31 PM
The purpose of any opposite is to define its opposite and therefore the whole.
In other words, if there is evil, it only exists relative to good. The two compliment
eachother to define the whole, the all, the good and the evil, although in a poor way.
I say in a poor way do they reflect the whole because a polarity lacks the necessary neutrality
or third principle to accurately represent the whole. Some say that any manifestation requires
three force, positive, negative and neutral, or in alchemy, mercury, sulphur and salt, or in holy trinity
father, son and holy spirit, etc.

So some people would say evil exists to separate us from god in order that we may choose to return to god.
We cannot truly know good without its pole evil to define it, give it relevance.
So i guess some thought it necessary that if god is the good then we need a devil to be the evil.
But all this is simply saying that there is no manifestation without polarity - there must be a dance between
poles (a pole dance! :D) to have manifestation... a balance between centrifigul and centripetal forces, between
contraction and expansion, between light and dark, sun and moon, spirit and matter, etc.

Dear Solomon,
I can see in this post a crystallization of some of the differences we have had in other discussions.
You have expressed yourself very clearly in this post (not unlike the others, but this one, even clearer, more succinct) and have make it very clear
what you believe the polarity is...

I want to offer something here -
Good CAN and DOES exist without evil, it just cannot be known.
so when you say,
So some people would say evil exists to separate us from god in order that we may choose to return to god.
I am one of those. i agree.
Evil is the separator. not the other half of the balance of the whole.
Evil, in essence, does NOT really exist, per se, though it does carry weight in this realm, in the duality.
It is an illusion. it serves to create a false reality, that creates a sense of separation for us to evolve ourselves and learn who and what we are as individuals.
we are not meant to continue to live with evil.
i have noticed that when people believe that evil makes up the whole, that it is a balance as part of the whole, and when they confuse it with one half of the yin yang balance,
they themselves "invite" it in, and this leaves them muddied up and not as pure, as the Stone becomes when it is created properly.
The True Stone, after all, banishes all evil.

solomon levi
02-28-2012, 11:13 PM
Greetings Moshe.

"Good can and does exist without evil, it just cannot be known..."

Well, we obviously can't have an objective discussion on that.

As for evil not being the other half, I disagree, and so does the Bible.
It's called the tree of knowledge of good and evil - one tree, not two, from the same root.
(the second tree is the tree of life).

For me, for one thing to be an illusion makes all things illusions. We can't select which
ones are illusions and which aren't and call ourselves objective.

A superconductor does not allow another field in it's presence either.
Maybe the stone is a superconductor.