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DanceofRebirth
01-26-2012, 06:08 AM
Alright, I have a list of questions that I'm sure will be better suited by reading before answering, but I'm seeing a trend along all the locations and places that I'm reading online towards a bunch of people referring to 'Good' and 'Evil' while creating the (mostly) Spiritual/(sometimes Practical) alchemical Philosopher's Stone, and/or the process of 'using it' for Good or Evil keeps reappearing. This is baffling me because I was under the impression that Alchemical Arts (the process of creating something pure and evolved beyond it's current state) was without the leanings of Good or Evil. If the creator is stripped of Ego (ego itself being neither good or evil) then the product be it spiritual or practical, will be more pure and more cleansed than the initial substance, and thus will have been improved. I associated this in my mind as a connection to the stance of the Kabbalah in that there are two standards of Black/White, male/female, etc, and these identifiers or archetypes are simply two forms of energy. They can not be and are not considered 'Good' or 'Evil' and are simply two different ways of looking into the same process. The key, the importance, is to follow through without ego within one's intention, and to simply allow the change for the sake of personal betterment without being power hungry, etc. When I see so many people focusing on the 'Good' vs 'Evil' prospect of colored lens view of things I find myself to be more confused than previously. The first time I shook it off, thinking that it was never explained to the person who used it, but recently, it's coming up more and more often, and I wonder if I've gotten something horribly wrong.

:confused: Is there really a 'Good' or an 'Evil' within the practice of alchemy?

Chenkel
01-27-2012, 12:05 AM
I posted about it in the Good vs Evil and the Quality of the Stone thread and I think my answer there would apply here too.

What you seem to be talking about here is the principle of 'conjunction of opposites' which is important to alchemy. But the conjunction of opposites does not apply to Good vs Evil in quite the same way as Male vs Female -- at least in the way we think of the real life difference of the sexes. It might be helpful to think of the male female thing here more in terms of "that which is infused" vs. "that which infuses". Kinda like tea. Kinda like making babies.

Anyway yeah... I wouldn't get too hung up on those Good & Evil discussions but it is necessary IMO to read some old philosophical or religious texts about what exactly these things are (and to independently find the truth in your heart).

DanceofRebirth
01-28-2012, 01:15 AM
Thank you for your statements. I did read the thread and it followed along these lines as well, which is what prompted me to post to begin with, because what I felt like I was trying to get at was the same basic thing in your thread, the concept that 'good vs evil' is not always tied into what we do and that doing things for wicked purposes doesn't change the state of energy, persay, only really the intention of it's use. However, that being said, I see this reference of 'do things always for Good and never for Evil' and as a complete beginner it confused me a great deal. I was under the impression that 'good vs evil' had nothing to really do with it as the Male/Female (black/white, yin/yang)dichotomy is another thing entirely. I think I was looking in some fashion for someone to let me know if I was entirely on the wrong page with this.

What old texts would you consider as a good starting basis for reading on this subject, if you don't mind advising a reference or two?

Chenkel
02-10-2012, 10:33 PM
Oh man.... I dunno. Whatever religious texts feel comfy for you I guess. Read the Hermetica for sure if you haven't already. (Corpus Hermeticum, Emerald Tablet, The Asclepius)
Also a fan of Empedocles. See esp. the text on Love/Strife (written as Concord/Discord in some other sources I think) http://history.hanover.edu/texts/presoc/emp.htm

Moshe
02-11-2012, 09:27 PM
However, that being said, I see this reference of 'do things always for Good and never for Evil' and as a complete beginner it confused me a great deal.


Isn't it true, that no matter what we do, or where we do it, we should always "'do things always for Good and never for Evil'?
How could that possibly confuse you while beginning to learn alchemy?

If you were a clerk, or a janitor, a lawyer, or a priest, is it not always to aspire to do good, and not evil?

I am presuming that we have accepted and established that there is good and evil...
this question does not seem to be about "is there good and evil?" because, that is another questions, to which the answer is, yes, of course.

Awani
02-13-2012, 05:05 AM
For those interested in a general debate on Good and Evil see this thread: http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1594-Good-or-Evil

:cool:

Ghislain
02-13-2012, 07:35 AM
Moshe

I wrote a reply here but when I went to post it in the thread that Dev linked to in his post above
realised that that thread already says everything I was going to say here.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1594-Good-or-Evil

Some how the post that was here is now the next post so I may as well leave it there.

Ghislain

Ghislain
02-13-2012, 07:48 AM
Isn't it true, that no matter what we do, or where we do it, we should always "'do things always for Good and never for Evil'?
How could that possibly confuse you while beginning to learn alchemy?

If you were a clerk, or a janitor, a lawyer, or a priest, is it not always to aspire to do good, and not evil?

I am presuming that we have accepted and established that there is good and evil...
this question does not seem to be about "is there good and evil?" because, that is another questions, to which the answer is, yes, of course.

Moshe, it is not whether we agree that there is good and evil for just the fact that we can write it proves
it exists as words ...it is whether it matters that something is called good or evil and realising that the
answer is only the opinion of the one that sees it that way.

If you ask me is there such a thing as good and evil I would have to say no not as a separate entity...there are things that just are
and good or evil is a personal perspective of them.

I understand the aspiration to do good, but many in the past have done, what is considered by some, evil in
the name of good.

Good and evil is a relative thing.

For example there are fair trading towns in Ireland where products from companies that use cheap
sweatshop labour from third world countries are banned.

Well done! I hear some cry...but now those sweatshop workers have no work at all and thier families die
from starvation...was this a good or evil thing the Irish did?

People can suffer from the thoughtless good deeds of others.

Ghislain

DanceofRebirth
02-14-2012, 02:27 PM
Isn't it true, that no matter what we do, or where we do it, we should always "'do things always for Good and never for Evil'?
How could that possibly confuse you while beginning to learn alchemy?

If you were a clerk, or a janitor, a lawyer, or a priest, is it not always to aspire to do good, and not evil?

I am presuming that we have accepted and established that there is good and evil...
this question does not seem to be about "is there good and evil?" because, that is another questions, to which the answer is, yes, of course.


No, because what's good to you might be evil to the neighbor. Are you suggesting that you don't eat or drink because that'd be 'evil' to animals, plants, or other possible smaller than visual ranges of site whom you'd wish to consume accidentally or on purpose? Or do you think that it's just an animal or a plant and thus doesn't have rights to things like 'good vs evil' in your actions towards it? There are countries where a woman is a possession the same as a child, a horse, or a rug. Would it be evil to use your possessions if they could walk and talk back?

Evil is all based on personal ideology and beliefs, so no, we are not agreed on the basis of good and evil, and no you didn't answer my question about it's possible indifference to the alchemical process because your statements are unfounded on any kind of theory outside of your own personal belief that good and evil are inherent qualities instead of choices that we make based on situations, or so it seems. And honestly asking if a *job* could define how good or evil one's aspirations could be seems not only slightly rude, but rather pointless. I'm not asking if being an Alchemist is involved in the struggle, or lack there of, between good and evil in one's life, but if it's actually involved in the process of Alchemy, taking into considerations the making of the stone, the changing of the person on the inside, and if the labels of good or evil are actually *used* during the transfiguration of the being or if they are not actually involved and are just called upon based on the normal relation to God in the title that we'd use in Alchemy and God in the religious aspect because good and evil are usually based on religious perspectives.

In this manner, if it's only based on religious references and the connection to God, then I see no point to the use of such a heavy label in my own work. However, if it's a real part of the process to identify whatever is within us as 'evil' and be rid of it simply because it's 'not good' then I'm going to reconsider my own conceptualization of what I'm studying and see where I've made the mistake.

Sadly, Moshe, the world is not as clear as good vs evil. I believe it's usually termed 'shades of gray' and that's what I'm attempting to clear up within the active practice of Alchemy, not in your own personal belief system. My apologies if this was not made clear the first time I wrote something down. However, if this is all you know, or the only way in which you can respond, through a personal statement, then I can fully respect that because Alchemy is based on personal experiences and the words of long dead masters in the subjects. My thanks for sharing your opinions and if I've seemingly taken, or offered, offense in this manner, then I apologize at your inconvenience.

Awani
02-14-2012, 02:33 PM
A very good argument you give, DoR.


this question does not seem to be about "is there good and evil?" because, that is another questions, to which the answer is, yes, of course.

To this I would like to add that it is not of course... instead of Good and Evil perhaps the world is filled with Good and Stupid, or Good and Childish. I think this perception is probably healthier. :)

MarkostheGnostic
02-14-2012, 08:54 PM
Is there really a 'Good' or an 'Evil' within the practice of alchemy?

Within the human plane of being, a plane of opposites, there need be a balance,or a Beauty, that is the harmonious integration of opposites. On the Pillar of Mildness on the Qabalistic Tree, after one has risen from the Astral Triangle, having crossed the Veil of Paroketh, one arrives at the level of the Ethical Triangle. Above the realm of natural Thought, Unconscious processes, and Emotion, in the Ethical Triangle, one finds Geburah [or Din] and Gedulah [or Chesed] - Severity and Mercy. Between these extremes there is the Center - Tiphereth [Beauty] or Rahamim [Compassion] - the abode of Ruach [Spirit]. Tiphereth is the Sun. It is also the Son, whom the Book of Revelations describes in its Severity, as opposed to other biblical descriptions of the Son in its merciful aspect. Tiphereth with Geburah is 'Fire.' Tiphereth with Gedulah is 'Light.' The balance of these forces connotes Goodness, and though, like Yin-Yang, both are included in either, the Tiphereth-Gedulah is on the pendulum swing of Goodness. I see it demonstrated, for example, as the Allied Forces of liberation from the concentration camps in WW II, versus the Nazi forces of 'fire,' subhumanity, and wrath. The Nazis of course, saw their power also descending from 'On-High,' but through an opposite force. You decide for youself which pendulum swing you identify with in duality, but know that we are both.