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nav2010
03-08-2012, 06:44 PM
Hi all, There is something about alchemy that has always had me baffled. Having read many of the scripts of the sages over the years it often strikes my concience as to how these people got to the extreme complexities of the art. We know that people are inquisitive, people are practical and like to mess for want of a better word but some of the messing they do and the complexity behind it scares me. It scares me so much that sometimes I strongly believe that its BS and there is a simple sollution to it all. For example, the very first person ever to achieve the stone, he cannot have possibly known what he was looking for because he'd never experienced the stone or heard of it or knew what it did. Therefore I would assume that the very first person who made it found it by accident - he must have done. How do you go through a distilling process nine times before you reach the next step in the process if you don't know why you are distilling? Such a complex process cannot possibly be dropped on by accident, it would have either been reverse engineered from gold or told to you by someone else but who told them? It doesn't make sense to me because many of the inventions and discoveries we made in science were infact discovered by accident while messing with much more simple things. Now if the process were much more simple OR very similar to another process that used the same tools and materials then I could agree but its not. We discovered wines and beers by accident because there is natural yeast in the air and you can see how leaving some grape juice outside for a few weeks to ferment then drinking it would evolve. Then perhaps accidentally discover something else while making wine. There isn't many things close to alchemy that you could be doing to accidentally discover the stone is there? You could accidentally drop something into a pot of molten lead and have a urika moment i suppose but you're not gonna drop something in that molten metal thats been distilled nine times, put in the fire umpteen times over months, was derived from dew and contains the SM which man had never previously come into contact with are you?
Seems far too complex for early sages to have their teeth into whether its Abraham the Jew, Bacon or Flamel, there's something not right about it all. I therefore suspect that it is very simple and its all a red herring to keep us away from the truth. Just my humble opinion folks.

zoas23
03-08-2012, 10:35 PM
The pyramids were certainly very hard to build too...
But it doesn't make much sense to assume that they were built by accident.... in the same way that it's reasonable to say that the Egyptians didn't begin their architecture with HUGE pyramids, but with small houses... and that new ways of building were slowly developed.

It's pure speculation, but I have serious doubts that the first person who did something "alchemical" arrived to the stone, just like the first Egyptian who built something probably started with a small house or even something smaller.

Nowadays we are often standing in the shoulders of giants... but the same thing is true for all people of all ages (just think about the Wright brothers and their first plane... they were not the very first ones who thought about making a machine that could fly.... Leonardo was obsessed with the idea... and a lot of people were trying to do it and it was a long process of trial and error till two brothers arrived to the very first plane that could fly... but they didn't invent the engine, nor the wings, not the wheel, etc).

What makes you think that alchemy is different?

horticult
03-08-2012, 11:20 PM
Flying & all is easy, the paraglider could by sewn b4 millenias...

IMO Stone was invented cause of the main&really one needed thing - health, long life. IMHO Au transmutations theory as prima cause is BS.

horticult
03-08-2012, 11:27 PM
Consider properly, that Au has only 1 exploitation / ;-) / - 2 bend someone 2 serve u...










i will not discuss here the beauty of jewels or eating of Au

solomon levi
03-08-2012, 11:50 PM
I do not imagine the stone was ever found by accident.
This makes man a purely material being bumping around with other materials objects.
All Philosophers relate the stone to knowledge/communion of/with God/Spirit/Aetherial/Celestial...

But yes, they have made it awfully complicated to understand them.
I do not think it is so complicated; but one cannot fall on it by accident either.

Andro
03-09-2012, 12:07 AM
Try to imagine the most ancient Shamans, Mystics, Sensitives, Psychonauts, Philosophers, OOB explorers:

All of them seeing/feeling/knowing that there is (or must be) a Universal, All-Connecting Energy Field, a First Cause and a First Matter of everything manifest...

And the longing/desire to unite with this Universal Energy, even to the degree of making it TANGIBLE in the world of Matter, before it becomes corrupted by specification (and therefore no longer "universal"...)

There doesn't have to be a logical 'reason' for it. Or this or that agenda...

Many pioneers who where NOT practical Alchemists communed with this energy, one way or another. Tesla, for example. And Robert Monroe called it 'The M-Field'.

Many geniuses/explorers of the unknown and of the unseen (to most) are often of the more 'introvert' type... But even they need to release accumulated containment every once in a while...

And this release can also be seen as a bonus/side effect, and it certainly can lead to the harnessing of this bonus/side effect by the more 'practical' incarnations, or even by the more 'extroverted' side of the same inquiring individual(s).

My angle on this...

nav2010
03-09-2012, 12:22 PM
zoas23 wrote

What makes you think that alchemy is different?
In the very beginnings of the art by the very first person to perform the art there must have been an initial idea that base metals could be turned to gold. That will have started with 'I wonder if I drop this substance into molten iron/copper/lead it will transmute it into gold'. Now obviously it is not going to work just dropping any old substance into the molten metal so the initiate will then begin to experiment with different materials. Because there is no 'I nearly succeeded' in alchemy, the way an alchemist gauges his success is extremly difficult, it either works or it doesn't.
So in the beginnings I can imagine an alchemist trying every known substances including plants, minerals, metals etc and this is where many of the alloys such as brass were discovered aswell as many chemicals which were alchemical concoctions and so chemistry was born.
Because the gauge of success in Alchemy is either 'yes' or 'no' with nothing inbetween, no 'nearly's' or 'almost's' to be able to work from then the alchemist has absolutely no idea if he is working with the correct minerals or the prima materia or if he is going down the right track. For example, how would the very first alchemist deduce that he was working with the prima materia in the first place? Then all the distilling, the concocting, putting things to the fire or the dry fire to a certain temperate heat, waiting months for materials to change all in the name of a 'yes' or 'no' answer. The first time it failed the unbeknowing alchemist would abandon that avenue altogether because he cannot possibly know if he is in the correct avenue never mind distilling something another 6 or 7 times and trying again. The very first alchemist cannot have worked in this way. In my opinion the very first alchemist (and there had to have been one) must have reversed engineered the stone in some way. He had to have either seen nature perform the task and copied it or come across the stone by accident.
Examining ore layers in gold, lead, copper and other mines aswell as identifying reactions within them would have been a start for the first alchemist, recognising materials involved in the process and approaching the problem with a constructive attitude like we do today when we set off on a voyage of discovery. I don't wear the idea that God reveals the secret to people in dreams or any other ocus that i've read over the years. I strongly believe that the transmutation can be approached from a scientific prospective without all the philosophical crap thats been put there to either send people around the twist or totally confuse the matter.
Nature has her ways of doing things, we as individuals have been kept away from that truth either by people like JP Morgan when he ruined Tesla's life and kept all the information about the zero point field away from us or individuals keeping the truth away from us about how nature really works and how metals are created in the mineral world. When we invented the space shuttle, nuclear fission, microwave ovens or any other addition to man kind, did we go through some kind of philosophical higher meaning for each invention before we proceeded or got permission from God to proceed? No, we didn't and neither do we to find the stone. It's science - period and God can't make it work for one person or hide things from him and reveal it to someone else, if you find it then you find it.

Ghislain
03-09-2012, 01:28 PM
Take some time out to meditate and you will know how it came about.

Those that think science is somehow different from all that “philosophical crap” are cobbling
themselves. I can liken it to a car with two wheels on one side...no not a bike :)
It will probably go around and around in circles.

Keep an open mind and you are allowing things to enter; close it and you already have all you’re
going to get.

How "great" are the space shuttle and microwave ovens etc... see below for some perspective.

http://ez002.k12.sd.us/cell.gif
http://sisuhospital.org/style/embryo-transfer-2.jpg
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/images/Haeckel-1874.jpg
http://genius.toucansurf.com/blank%20space.gifhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTjRHvoBjKkutedl5BcF7VZ_PpPI48nz W3QfybLTNpd4Utb4_YO88_1xJ2g9w

Now find one of these, it’s a window into another dimension. We can go through the window but there is
another us that wants to come here at the same time. The only thing stopping you entering that other
dimension is you. :)

http://genius.toucansurf.com/blank%20space.gifhttp://www.theenglishhouse.eu/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Serpent-Convex-Mirror.jpg

Who made the first you? We have all the ingredients, but try as we might we can’t seem to
get the mix right.

The picture is much much bigger; and the thing is we know it ALL, but refuse to listen to the
information that is always present within and around us.

The Ones who learned how to listen made the first stone; I’m guessing they found it easy.

IMHO

Ghislain <--still deaf

Ghislain
03-09-2012, 02:07 PM
How deep can we go or is it fractal?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Calabi-Yau-alternate.png/220px-Calabi-Yau-alternate.png

http://pdgusers.lbl.gov/~pslii/uabackup/source_files/image/String_theory_loops.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jIPNvBuH41s/S1tqDXp8hbI/AAAAAAAAE6Y/93UxpoAYXkI/s400/Theory+of+Everything+-+String+Theory+2.JPG

http://www.world-builders.org/lessons/less/les4/genes/atom_2.jpg

http://genius.toucansurf.com/molecules.gif

And thats just the scientific stuff...wait till you get to the philosophical :)

Ghislain

nav2010
03-09-2012, 02:29 PM
What a load of old mystical and philosophical tosh. This is 2012 not 1412. We know how things work without trying to explain everything in some pseudo-mystical nonsense.
Been studying this for over 20 years and it makes me laugh sometimes. Where ever you go you find people delving into spiritus BS, claiming to know more than anyone, claiming to have found SM or PM, usually talking in riddles like they are a 14th century sage or Yoda off Star wars when in actual fact they know nothing more than the average Joey who still thinks the Earth is flat.
You're looking for the stone, you havn't found it, you havn't got anywhere near finding it so stop talking like Yoda and behave yourself.

solomon levi
03-09-2012, 06:09 PM
It doesn't seem you are very open to discussion on this Nav. So I'll save my fingers.
But if you think alchemy is science, then I guess alchemy doesn't exist since science says so.
So are you here to just call everyone assholes?

horticult
03-09-2012, 07:53 PM
>nav2010

check how many things in official science and industry were solved in dreams


/kekule, singer, dvorak............................................ ................................../
& remember the healing effect of cgjs beetle
these are reality

Andro
03-09-2012, 11:33 PM
What a load of old mystical and philosophical tosh. This is 2012 not 1412. We know how things work without trying to explain everything in some pseudo-mystical nonsense.
Been studying this for over 20 years and it makes me laugh sometimes. Where ever you go you find people delving into spiritus BS, claiming to know more than anyone, claiming to have found SM or PM, usually talking in riddles like they are a 14th century sage or Yoda off Star wars when in actual fact they know nothing more than the average Joey who still thinks the Earth is flat.
You're looking for the stone, you haven't found it, you haven't got anywhere near finding it so stop talking like Yoda and behave yourself.

There is a reason for a certain degree of secrecy/coded language, and it has (IMO) mainly to do with responsibility rather than bullshitting or jealously holding on to exclusive knowledge (not that these do not have a level of occurrence as well).

I personally know of people who came across certain Keys without being spiritually and psychologically prepared for the aftermath of using those Keys - and the consequences for them were quite unpleasant/disturbing, to say the least.
A few other people on this Forum can give similar testimonies in this regard. This truly makes it a matter of responsibility.

Alchemy could be called both a Science and an Art IMO. It has a bit of both, but not exactly as we know it from school or from mainstream media publications.

Alchemy also has it's own special 'Language', not unlike Music, for example.

And I don't see people who study music complaining that the partitures are written in some mystical language meant only for the initiated - because they ARE!

So - analogically speaking - don't go to a foreign country who's language and customs you don't understand, and then complain that they speak in riddles just because they're not communicating in a way you're used to/familiar with.

If you have studied for 20 years and 'it makes you laugh' - then I suggest you either propose an alternative to the concepts you are denigrating (and stop projecting on others), or simply acknowledge your personal disappointment with your progress (or lack thereof) and either stop searching OR change your perception of Alchemy and the direction of your research accordingly.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2563-Fantasies-of-the-Philosophers&p=17947#post17947

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2563-Fantasies-of-the-Philosophers&p=17950#post17950

There is more than enough information on these forums to put you on a constructive track of lucrative research.

I'm not saying it's all BS-free, but here's where your personal discernment comes in.

There are many people here who have labored intensively for many years, outwardly and inwardly alike, some only to reach a promising beginning of a genuine Practice, so I wouldn't expect them to deny you the immense pleasure of discovering Nature's Secrets on your own.

(Unless, of course, you wish to be a pioneer and openly publish a clearly laid out scientific paper with the exact recipe for the Philosopher's Stone. Maybe even patent it!)


What a load of old mystical and philosophical tosh. This is 2012 not 1412. We know how things work without trying to explain everything in some pseudo-mystical nonsense.

Archetypal languages sometimes have a way of not being quite entirely timeline-dependent.

To quote a brilliant sound recording/mixing engineer (Bruce Swedien) - when asked if he has any 'trade secrets' that he's not sharing, he replied:

"I'm open about everything, I just haven't yet met a person who actually understands what I'm talking about."


Nature has her ways of doing things, we as individuals have been kept away from that truth either by people like JP Morgan when he ruined Tesla's life and kept all the information about the zero point field away from us or individuals keeping the truth away from us about how nature really works and how metals are created in the mineral world. When we invented the space shuttle, nuclear fission, microwave ovens or any other addition to man kind, did we go through some kind of philosophical higher meaning for each invention before we proceeded or got permission from God to proceed? No, we didn't and neither do we to find the stone. It's science - period and God can't make it work for one person or hide things from him and reveal it to someone else, if you find it then you find it.

Actually, Tesla spoke frequently of Spiritus Mundi - he just called it by a different name. And Alchemy and the Zero Point Field may well be VERY closely related. Some of this info is right here on Alchemy Forums.

And how can you be so sure that the greatest inventions/discoveries didn't involve some philosophical 'Higher Meaning'? Even to the point of direct personal revelation?

And if you're so keen on mentioning Tesla - you'd better study his life as well, and see how some of his extraordinary 'ideas' came to him...

Also, Nav2010, if you could elaborate a bit on the lines of research you have been pursuing, someone else here could maybe rise to the occasion and point out different and possibly more encompassing/clearly laid out perspectives on Alchemy, here on Alchemy Forums or anywhere else on the web.

Good luck.
✂------------------------------------------

vega33
03-10-2012, 08:43 AM
Great post, Androgynus!

Its funny, I don't think many people know the extent to which alchemy and the spiritual science link up... yet Eugenius Philalethes revealed this directly in his encomium to Knight Cornelius Agrippa. It really has to be quoted almost in its entireity (even if retyped by hand from a scan), because its such a sublime statement of the reality of the Art on a single page of prose.


Great, glorious Pen-man! Whom I should not name
Lest I should seem to measure Thee by Fame.
Nature's Apostle, and her Choice High Priest,
Here Mysticall and bright Evangelist.
How am I rapt when I contemplate Thee,
And winde my self above All that I see!
The Spiritsof thy Lines infuse a Fire
Like the Worlds Soul, which makes me thus aspire:
I am unbody'd by thy books, and Thee,
And in thy Papers find my Exstasie.
Or if I please but to descend a strain,
Thy Elements do skreen my Soul again.
I can undress my Self by thy bright Glass.
And then resume the enclosure, as I was.
Now I am Earth, and now a Star, and then
A Spirit: now a star, and then earth again
Or if I will but ramasle all that be,
In the least moment I ingross all Three.
I span the Heaven and Earth, and things above,
And which is more, joyn Natures by their Jove.
He crowns my Soul with Fire, and there doth shine.
But like the Rain-bow in a Cloud of mine.
Yet there s a Law, by which is discompose
The Ashes, and the Fire it self disclose,
But in his Emrald still he doth appear;
They are but Grave-clothes which he scatters here.
Who sees this Fire without his Mask, his Eye
Must needs be swallow'd by the Light, and die.
These are the Mysteries for which I wept
Glorious Agrippa, where thy language slept,
Where thy dark Texture made me wander far,
Whiles through that pathless night, I trac'd the Star,
But I have found those Mysteries, for which,
Thy book was more than thrice piled-o'er with Pitch.
Now a new East beyond the Rays I see
Where breaks the Day of thy Divinitie:
Heaven states a Commerce here with Man, had He
But gratefull Hands to take, and Eyes to see..
Hence you found School-men, that high truths deride,
And with no Arguments but Noyse, and Pride;
You that damn all but what yourselves invent,
And yet find nothing by Experiment;
Your Fate is written by an unseen Hand,
But his Three Books, with the Three worlds shall stand.


It almost deserves to be printed on laminated sheets and rubber stamped on the walls of every alchemists' dwelling. Here Philalethes speaks so candidly of what we nowadays would call astral travel, or remote viewing - ie, the ability of the soul/spirit to separate from the body and be conversant with the worlds, in an age where to speak so openly meant dire condemnations from a priesthood intent on stamping out all such knowledge except within the hands of an elite. He speaks openly of the manner in which the fire of metals may be drawn out, at the same time as he states sublime spiritual truths. The two were to him one and the same, just as they were one and the same to Agrippa. Science is really here to help us solve one mystery: how does consciousness, a seemingly incorporeal entity, interact with matter - a corporal one (through a medium which is neither totally corporeal, nor totally incorporeal - which is both (in apparency) a wave and a particle). Everything else is really just poking about and making repeatable observations about the way bodies interact with bodies. And of course even in this there is the spiritual (joining natures by their Jove, the marrying high-priest... Zeus was after all, from the root zeuxis, to marry).

My point with posting that quote was to try to illustrate to nav2010 the unity in which spiritual and scientific pursuits were held in the days where alchemy originated, and thus the way that we ourselves should approach it if we are to be successful in understanding the point of view of people born many centuries before our time. The mysteries of the elements are not below those of the modern day - the so called "Art by which I discompose", and its related arts, involves the art of making salts - the process that nowadays has come to electrolysis, a very misunderstood process whereby fire or spirit is disclosed underneath the hood of ordinary substance. It is up to us to put ourselves in the mindset of the people of this era and understand how miraculous it must have seemed (and even today to us must seem, if we but think deeply about it).

Fraternally
-M

nav2010
03-10-2012, 11:36 AM
It doesn't seem you are very open to discussion on this Nav. So I'll save my fingers.
But if you think alchemy is science, then I guess alchemy doesn't exist since science says so.
So are you here to just call everyone assholes?
I'm open to discussion Solomon about anything. I don't think alchemy is science and I'm not calling anyone an asshole. Alchemy was the precurser to modern chemistry and in a time when people didn't understand the true nature of matter they created a pseudo mystical explanation for themselves. Very similar to Paganistic and Greek mythology where when one doesn't understand things, one creates his own explanation using fantasy. Therefore I believe alchemy is largly a mixture of fantasy and pseudo-mystical belief which people can't seem to get out of.
Science in my opinion has got it wrong about the creation and nature of metals and their cousins but it can be put right and there is no need to carry on with the pretence of alchemy to correct those mistakes. Someone mentioned responsibility, take a look at the planet people, we have half of the world living in poverty so that the other half can live comfortably, people starving to death. Wars taking place as we speak and the world on the brink of self destruction because of greed and hatred. Do you think divulging the secret of the stone to the world is going to make the world any worser place than it is now? You cannot make the world a worse place than it is now and if God intended for this stone to be here at all then he intended for everyone to use it and live in peace. Who's being irresponsible?

ghetto alchemist
03-10-2012, 01:30 PM
I believe that you are correct about all your points Nav 2010.

Like yourself I also imagined that the first alchemist must have made the discovery by accident or by coying nature. I do still subscribe to that belief except someone else (not me but I can't remember who) once proposed a hypothesis which made perfect sense.

That in the past the gods (or some such being) came here mated with humans and then left to return from whence they came. But before they left they taught the women the secret of transmutation. I like this only because it is the thinking and behaviour of very advanced intellect. As a father myself, I want my children to survive, to live healthy lives and survive and have their own children, I want them to carry on my lineage. An advanced being would think the same, by teaching his children the secret of making gold, you guarantee their survival in our world. Even better than that, your offspring will become kings and queens, emperors and empresses and will in turn be able to procreate with the very best from the rest of the population.
Curiously enough, there are many around the world who claim that royals are descended from gods/demi-gods.

I still like the first alchemist idea though, but it is not as elegant.

All that said, I also belive that we are simply looking at straight science. leave all the philisophical mumbo jumbo out and the processes will still work.

I once questioned the vailidity and truth of the claims of artificial gold just as you are doing yourself.
For a time I doubted that the meaning of the old timers was a literal one. Until I finally played the devils advocate, and I pondered that if the texts were true, then there would have to be several tell tale signs which could not be hidden. Eg more gold in the world that mining alone could produce. I was later able to prove this to myself without a shadow of doubt. Specifically, the Mayans/aztecs in South America had far too much gold for their technology to produce, as did the Chinese in the mid 20th century (which was stolen by Japan and hidden in the Phillipines). Even the scholars agree that the Mayans had too much gold, but rather than consider synthetic gold, they completely ignore the problem.

Lastly, for my own suggestion why nobody has accidently rediscovered......I propose this. If the first material is indeed quartz crystal, scientists will never accidentally discover because it is the chemically the same substance as their standard equipment (glass). They could only ever accidentally discover by swapping standard equipment for non-standard (stainless steel/clay flasks), something which they would be unlikely to ever do. Amateur backyard experimenters might use non stndard equipment, no worries though, since almost all chemicals required to complete the process are banned to the layperson. All for different reasons too, some can be used for bombs, others for illegal drugs, and some are just too dangerous. I still think it is laughable that I can't buy saltpeter over the counter in my country even in a miniscule amount because it can be used as an explosive, yet I can buy gasoline (a bona-fide explosive) in massive quantities as part of my daily life and NOBODY CARES.

Besides these 2 barriers, there is also the gag orders that are placed on patents. Any technologies that may lead to synthetic gold production or related technology (nuclear?) are placed with secrecy orders, stopping them from ever being openly revealed.

As others have pointed out the tone of your post seems harsh, perhaps even negative. And I kind of agree with them, but for the record, I also think that you are 100% correct in your arguemnts and assertions nav2010.

Ghislain
03-10-2012, 04:02 PM
Remote Viewing
Telepathy
Telekinetics
Zero Point Energy
Clairvoyance (seers)

As a proposition I could say that the world is only 200 years old and who could prove me wrong?
Everything you read about history is fabricated hearsay.

I hear people shouting about Carbon dating and such, but there are those that will tell you that is
bunkum too...and we all know that books pictures and film can be faked.


Archaeologists are Concerned

The unreliability of carbon 14 date testing is a great concern to honest archaeologists. They
get particularly concerned when C14 testing shows obviously inaccurate results and they are
left in uncertainty about the reliability of the dates that they have previously never
questioned.

New or Old?

Some examples of abnormal C14 results include testing of recently harvested, live mollusc
shells from the Hawaiian coast that showed that they had died 2000 years ago and snail shells
just killed in Nevada, USA, dated in at 27,000 years old. A freshly killed seal at McMurdo
Sound, Antarctica, yielded a death age of 1300 years ago.
A petrified miner’s hat and wooden fence posts were unearthed from an abandoned 19th
century gold hunter’s town in Australia’s outback. Results from radiocarbon dating said that
they were 6000 years old.

More Evidence Needed

These anomalies have driven archaeologists to question their earlier conclusions about
archaeological sites and their respective civilizations founded on artefact dating. Many
theories about societies and their cultures have been based solely on C14 dating results. The
honest archaeologist can no longer propose theories and ideas without bringing a wider plate
of evidences to the history table.

Now watch the video below:

Carbon dating doesn't work -- debunked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbvMB57evy4)

Can you be sure you have ALL the facts?

I could say the world came into existence the day you first entered it; the “Truman Show” on a grand
scale.

Maybe science fits all the theories we have because it is part of “creation” that it should.

What does an electron actually look like other than the representation we place upon it?

We have values for the Graviton that works with our mathematical calculations; what is a Graviton?


In physics, the graviton is a hypothetical elementary particle that mediates the force of
gravitation in the framework of quantum field theory. If it exists, the graviton must be massless
(because the gravitational force has unlimited range) and must be a spin 2 boson. This is because the
source of gravitation is the stress-energy tensor, a second-rank tensor, compared to
electromagnetism, the source of which is the four-current, a first-rank tensor. Additionally, it can be
shown that any massless spin-2 field would be indistinguishable from gravitation, because a
massless spin-2 field must couple to (interact with) the stress-energy tensor in the same way that
the gravitational field does.[4] This result suggests that, if a massless spin-2 particle is discovered, it
must be the graviton, so that the only experimental verification needed for the graviton may simply
be the discovery of a massless spin-2 particle.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton)

“What bunkum is this”, one could say, but without the Graviton the math just doesn’t add up; with it
all is well and we move on. Ring any bells? SM

Galileo, after making public his theories, was placed under house arrest because people couldn’t or didn’t
want to understand his theories; those theories went against the grain of that which had been accepted.

The list can go on and on...science is a bunch of theories that fit our purpose right now; will they still
tomorrow? The creator of this world, if there is one, may be watching and laughing at our ignorance.

Newton’s theories were all we had to work with, and work they did, until quantum physics turned
things upside-down; few if any of Newton’s laws have relevance in the quantum world.

If our technology is so advanced why is there not a machine that you can throw your laundry into
and it comes out clean and ironed?

I do not reject any of the theories proposed in this thread, but that does not mean I will blinker
myself to all other possibilities.

We use philosophy as a shovel to dig deeper into that vast expanse of what is; without this many
discoveries that exist in our mindset of today may have been missed...Viva Le Curious!

Why would anyone want to blinker themselves to any possibility? Because they find it too difficult
to take into account all those possibilities?

I agree that to take everything into account is too great a task and this is why people specialise and
try to focus in one particular area in the hope that something laying outside their expertise is not
paramount to the success of their experimentation.

Phlogiston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogiston)

If there are “Red Herrings” then one must look amongst them to discover the hidden Mackerel. To
debunk something just because it does not fit with our particular mindset may be brave or just plain
stupid; however I do wish everyone all the success in any endeavour they may undertake.

Ghislain

nav2010
03-10-2012, 05:18 PM
Ghislain, thankyou for your reply. The double slit experiment and Quantum entanglement prove to me personally that things are not what they seem and science doesn't have a clue where to start with such phenomenon. There are many unexplained things in this world that need much more research but we need to approach these phenomenon with solid science rather than metaphorical and philosophical conjecture. You talk about Newton and what he gave the world, when Newton wrote his papers and presented them to the Royal institute, he did so in a language that most scholars and laymen could understand and his theories therefore could be applied in a practical sense. This is what needs to happen in alchemy. The secrets and the mysticism needs removing and the Yoda speaking pseudo talk needs to go by the way side so that the art is brought up to date.
Kings and Queens are not the only people that should have this knowledge, we all should have it because it belongs to us all. For those of you that are dreaming of the riches and long life then keeping the secret for your own personal welfare or whoever you choose to reveal it to - you are as bad as the fifthy rich oil barons and multi billionaires that are destroying this planet and its peoples for their own selfish benefits. Mr Flamel is said to have restored churches, built schools and other buildings for the benefit of his fellow man. Jesus Christ if he existed in my opinion used the knowledge to help people that were ill and to show us how we can use this knowledge to benefit mankind. I'm not aggressive, I just say things like they are, i'm a realist and I strongly believe people are looking for the stone for the wrong reasons which angers me at times. But good luck to all that seek her.

Seth-Ra
03-11-2012, 02:56 AM
My understanding of Alchemy was more than enough to impress my psychology teacher so that she requested i give a lesson on it one day in class. I did, and everyone who listened enjoyed it. Same happened in Sociology. Putting things into terms for laypeople to understand is not hard, and its done ALL the time - most beginner books will do that, and explain varying meanings of things. The point of our "mystical" language being as it is, is because it is not JUST a lab operation, or a mental meditation, or a spiritual revelation - it is ALL of these. The symbols, the wording, it fits together to bridge all of creation, inside and outside, as a whole. A pattern for Oneness. A language for Unity.

There have been many on this forum and other forums and many books that have openly spoke. Its not there's, or mine, or anyone else fault that you, or anyone else cannot understand what is being said. I have always advocated sharing "secrets" - funny thing is, the "secrets" protect themselves. On that note - no it is not for the world to know it and do it - because they will not. People do not always want to be cured, fixed, saved, helped, or enlightened. Many would attack those that are. Just because they are people, does not mean anything. Just because the animal or plant is alive, does not mean i wont eat it to further myself. All of creation is Life eating Life - the Ouroboros - equivalence. Those who will see and hear, will counter and balance those that will not. A dualistic view is good, but a unity view is also - only the two together can give an entire picture.

This quote (from Androgynus' post - thank you, i love this quote) is VERY spot on:
"I'm open about everything, I just haven't yet met a person who actually understands what I'm talking about."

There really is no better way to say it.




~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
03-11-2012, 05:31 AM
Very succinct Seth and even more so in Androgynus' case.

Ghislain

Andro
03-11-2012, 05:32 PM
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/TeslaCore.jpg

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/SciArt.jpg

:cool:

nav2010
03-11-2012, 07:03 PM
My understanding of Alchemy was more than enough to impress my psychology teacher so that she requested i give a lesson on it one day in class. I did, and everyone who listened enjoyed it. Same happened in Sociology. Putting things into terms for laypeople to understand is not hard, and its done ALL the time - most beginner books will do that, and explain varying meanings of things. The point of our "mystical" language being as it is, is because it is not JUST a lab operation, or a mental meditation, or a spiritual revelation - it is ALL of these. The symbols, the wording, it fits together to bridge all of creation, inside and outside, as a whole. A pattern for Oneness. A language for Unity.

There have been many on this forum and other forums and many books that have openly spoke. Its not there's, or mine, or anyone else fault that you, or anyone else cannot understand what is being said. I have always advocated sharing "secrets" - funny thing is, the "secrets" protect themselves. On that note - no it is not for the world to know it and do it - because they will not. People do not always want to be cured, fixed, saved, helped, or enlightened. Many would attack those that are. Just because they are people, does not mean anything. Just because the animal or plant is alive, does not mean i wont eat it to further myself. All of creation is Life eating Life - the Ouroboros - equivalence. Those who will see and hear, will counter and balance those that will not. A dualistic view is good, but a unity view is also - only the two together can give an entire picture.

This quote (from Androgynus' post - thank you, i love this quote) is VERY spot on:

There really is no better way to say it.




~Seth-Ra
Hogwash - for want of a better word. I never said I couldn't understand the alchemist language, I said the language is obsolete and out of date and there is no need to carry on with the pretence.

no it is not for the world to know it and do it
Isn't it, Who gave you the right to play God and grab the moral high ground? From whom have you adopted this doctrine?
So as long as you have your health and your riches, the little 5 year old girl with cancer can go get lost as far as you are concerned then?
It's this kind of attitude that has made the world an horrible place to live in, i'd be ashamed to spout such nonsence.
Nature has her ways of acheiving its goals and it will do it regardless of whether there are self indulgent Yoda talking people on the planet or not.
Sorry but there is no better way of saying it.

Andro
03-11-2012, 07:21 PM
You cannot make the world a worse place than it is now.

Sure you can.


Who gave you the right to play God and grab the moral high ground?

OK...


If God intended for this stone to be here at all then he intended for everyone to use it and live in peace.

And who's speaking for 'God' now?


Self indulgent Yoda talking people

It was Yoda who was opposed to training Anakin Skywalker in the occult Jedi ways (sensing his fear), and right in doing so he was, because Anakin joined the Dark Side and became Darth Vader, subsequently causing death and destruction throughout an entire Galaxy far far away (?) ...

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Yoda.jpg


Nature has her ways of acheiving its goals and it will do it regardless [...]

Now with this I agree completely...

(Except maybe that 'Nature' is neither 'Him' or 'Her', but BOTH :)
✂-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rogerc
03-11-2012, 08:34 PM
Wow!...Red herrings as the first matter of the philosophers stone....they mentioned herrings alot in Monty Python's The Quest for the Holy Graal, but I never pieced it together. ;)

Thanks, Nav for coming here and teaching us what alchemy is all about..... but since we all think alike here for the most part, and speak the same language,.... maybe you would be better suited on another forum where they don't speak a langauge that is so obsolete, like one of those new age, new fangled, ormus forums, maybe there with like minded people such as yourself you'd be less prone to insulting everyone that responds. As for the language this community is kinda stuck in its way in that regard, deciphering it and learning to speak it is the only way to unravel the texts of the old masters, and since it is one of the elements that has brought us the greatest measure of success, we won't be abondoning it any time soon.

We here are true hermeticists and above all true occultists and if you do not believe in the occult then you have no business studying our art, better stick to institutional science and 100% canned truth with no added presevatives.;) No offense but guys like you are a big disruption to this forum and seem to come along when we are going through periods, very revealing in the art, you seem to arrive with one aim...to stifle progress.

nav2010
03-11-2012, 09:03 PM
You could call God nature or you could call Nature God, either way I doubt very much that nature intended for a select few to know her ways. What is a fairer position than everyone knowing? There isn't one unless you were born to be selfish.

Sure you can.
You are going to tell me that everyone knowing the secret of the stone would be catastrophical aren't you? Not really, only in the eyes of the selfish could such a notion manifest. We wouldn't need gold as a fanancial measure of wealth if it weren't for greed infested cultures in the first place. We do what we did in the begiining - barter and trade, corn for sugar and sugar for rice and rice for shoes etc etc etc. No one dies and no one gets ill - sounds good to me. Not enough room on the planet? well perhaps if the fifthy rich gave the land back to the people they stole it from then there would be plenty of room. less than 5% of the population owns 99% of the Earths surface and uses it for their own selfish purpose. Queen of England owns 17% of the Earth's land surface. That's one sixth of the earths surface while the rest of us squabble for what is left. She sits in her palace eating caviar while on another continent thousands die everyday of starvation. The same country in which those people live are British companies mining gold and diamonds to place in HRH's jewellry so she can look magnificent on television and in state banquets. What century is this we are living in? 300 BC is it? Stoneage perhaps?
Then we have would be alchemists stating that they would do the same as the queen of England, with riches beyond their wildest dreams while keeping secrets that could save lives but the WORSE thing of all is that in their doctrines they DARE mention the name GOD.

nav2010
03-11-2012, 09:12 PM
We here are true hermeticists and above all true occultists and if you do not believe in the occult then you have no business studying our art
So you are a true hermet are you Roger? One of the select few are you? Emmmmm, where have I heard that before?
You know nothing of this art that I couldn't write on the back of a matchbox dear fellow. You are nothing different to the rest of the greedy self indugent tyrants that occupy this planet and chose to use it as your own personal playground to mainfest your crazy greed ridden dreams.
You'll never find the stone Roger - I can assure you of that. Why? Because it doesn't exist for you.

rogerc
03-11-2012, 09:26 PM
You know nothing of this art that I couldn't write on the back of a matchbox dear fellow.

Really......maybe you should try reading some on this forum.

My greed is not for the treasures of this world but for the treasures of the next, it is the only place I can be truely happy......my dear fellow you are late.....I already posses the stone.

nav2010
03-11-2012, 09:43 PM
Really......maybe you should try reading some on this forum.

My greed is not for the treasures of this world but for the treasures of the next, it is the only place I can be truely happy......my dear fellow you are late.....I already posses the stone.
Oh I've read all your posts Roger on the forum aswell as everyone else's. You are no nearer possessing the stone than reaching light speed on an Honda Melody. I'll tell you why you are here on this forum Roger shall I? Because you believe that knowing something special that no one else knows empowers you in some way and you are using this power to entrap and manipulate people into thinking you are special in some way. Well guess what Roger, i'll bet money that your responsibility as a true alchemist and hermet prevents you from revealing your secret to the rest of the world.......emmm, I think i've heard that before somewhere.
So Rog, you sit feeding people bait and when it doesn't work for them you tell them they did something wrong because the philosophical world of alchemy is full of pitfalls isn't it Rog and just maybe the initiate isn't ready yet for this wise ancient knowledge?
So you dangle them from your finger tips, teasing them, taunting them and enpowering yourself with this knowledge. Tut tut tut

Andro
03-11-2012, 09:47 PM
You know nothing of this art that I couldn't write on the back of a matchbox dear fellow.

Would you be willing to please back up your words by sharing with us what exactly you would write on the back of that matchbox?

This aside, if you knew a bit more about Alchemy, you would also know what disturbing and potentially devastating consequences it can have in the hands of someone who is not spiritually ready/prepared for this Practice. Examples abound.

This doesn't, however, negate the possibility of Genuine Masters (who have completed the Great Work of this realm, not just the Lab Work) to come forward when the time is ripe and introduce this Variable in the form of Healing - IF this is indeed Nature's Need and Grand Design. I simply don't know.

And after all this being said, I personally DO believe that the time may be near for larger scale revelations, and for what once was occult to be more openly revealed.
A critical mass of necessity and initiation would IMO be the precursor to such a revelation. Alchemical prophecy even mentions it (The Return of 'Elias Artist').

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________


You are nothing different to the rest of the greedy self indulgent tyrants that occupy this planet and chose to use it as your own personal playground to manifest your crazy greed ridden dreams.
You'll never find the stone Roger - I can assure you of that. Why? Because it doesn't exist for you.

Nav2010, while you are completely entitled to express your opinions and perspectives on this forum - I kindly ask you to refrain from any further personal insults and attacks such as the one above.

Moderator hat off.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

nav2010
03-11-2012, 10:00 PM
Would you be willing to please back up your words by sharing with us what exactly you would write on the back of that matchbox?

This aside, if you knew a bit more about Alchemy, you would also know what disturbing and potentially devastating consequences it can have in the hands of someone who is not spiritually ready/prepared for this Practice. Examples abound.

This doesn't, however, negate the possibility of Genuine Masters (who have completed the Great Work of this realm, not just the Lab Work) to come forward when the time is ripe and introduce this Variable in the form of Healing - IF this is indeed Nature's Need and Grand Design. I simply don't know.

And after all this being said, I personally DO believe that the time may be near for larger scale revelations, and for what once was occult to be more openly revealed.
A critical mass of necessity and initiation would IMO be the precursor to such a revelation. Alchemical prophecy even mentions it (The Return of 'Elias Artist').

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________



Nav2010, while you are completely entitled to express your opinions and perspectives on this forum - I kindly ask you to refrain from any further personal insults and attacks such as the one above.

Moderator hat off.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
Ok, I can go with that. I'll try not to insult anyone from here on in. Like i've previously mentioned - i'm a realist and I've been part of these discussions many times in different places around the world.
If Roger is 100% honest about his findings then I would invite him to do one thing. In an act of peace and good will to man kind, I will invite him not to reveal himself or the stone to the world but to pick a random person that is terminally ill from a location not known to us and administer the stone to that person. The rest will be history and Roger will keep his stone and his identity will remain unknown.

Andro
03-11-2012, 10:09 PM
Ok, I can go with that. I'll try not to insult anyone from here on in.

Thank you.

You've made some 'stirring' points that definitely deserve discussion IMO.

Back on track, then :)

nav2010
03-11-2012, 10:16 PM
Thankyou for that, if Roger doesn't agree 'to saving a life' then I would like to ask him if he took the stone himself. If he did, could I be so kind as to ask for a picture of Roger's teeth posting on the forum if that is not too much trouble. There are some things I would like to point out about teeth using the picture that will be really interesting to the forum.

alfr
03-11-2012, 11:07 PM
hi nav2010

sorry but (with all my respect)

i want say you some point
you say QUOTE nav2010" take a look at the planet people, we have half of the world living in poverty so that the other half can live comfortably, people starving to death. Wars taking place as we speak and the world on the brink of self destruction because of greed and hatred. Do you think divulging the secret of the stone to the world is going to make the world any worser place than it is now? You cannot make the world a worse place than it is now and if God intended for this stone to be here at all then he intended for everyone to use it and live in peace. Who's being irresponsible?

OK you say this and some part you have some real true reasom but is not the method to say here in this forum with many different and difficulty as a confront with date open more or less my opinion ( as i have always tell in post and and i have made it in public with my group prometeo and my edition Agape-Prometeo in my country etc (and This is my life my ideal-maybe utopic?-and my choice and also on this concrete basis and purpose true real and concrete to TRY make available to serious researchers etc that we have researched translated and published with our edition Agape-Prometeo many manuscripts of golden rose cross of the 1700 German etc translaion and publication in various languages ​​es thesauro thesaurorum manuscripts RC with TRUE REAL concrete original traditional operative method and TRUE instructions-indication for made elixir and philosophers stones by the elaboration of many matters and all is gived very enough clearly in this manuscripts of the golden rose cross of the 1700 German es:Thesaurus eg Tesaurorum the extasi secret of Federico gualdi an of master of gualdi ,Arcana Divina etc.etc) ) so sure IMHO we must more open and union the forces for TRY change the sitiuation with MAYBE also the alchemy and more .... .... ...

sure i think also this so i think this very similar to your opinion as always i have say in every situation
BUT? sorry!!! ( sure is absolutly correct and right ask deep verification and deep confront on some affermation etc) BUT sorry !!! your "answers" and your some "less provocations" etc ? is not the system correct to rapport with other members and friend ( as your answer Rogerc Solomon ) that made the way with you want confront in the forum and more also still is not good for my opinion your very "superficial" answer on the tannin give in the forum as you have made to solomon in post quote here ,
Originally Posted by solomon levi

Hi Nav.
Can you provide a source?
My dear fellow, the true nature of alchemical teaching is that when one discovers something, the initiate will know deep in his heart whether it is right or wrong.
There is no one on this forum that has discovered the real truth otherwise you wouldn't all be here and neither would I. So, in answer to your question about the source, the scource is both you and I. What do you have to lose?

So i think one answer as that (very sorry with all my respect "very much superficial") is not the method correct for start to made collaboration ( IMHO collaboration is one sirious and deep confront with date and verification of it date you or other give and confront very open wiht experience not only sorry a "little" "arrogant" answer QUOTE You know nothing of this art that I couldn't write on the back of a matchbox dear fellow.) and if you want create made one union for try with MAYBE also alchemy etc change the reality of this oppression and and enslavement of this world .

( sorry all for my bad english)

my best regards alfr

Seth-Ra
03-12-2012, 12:37 AM
Hogwash - for want of a better word. I never said I couldn't understand the alchemist language, I said the language is obsolete and out of date and there is no need to carry on with the pretence.

Its not a pretense. You may know some meanings, but true understanding of the language is being lacked, or you'd understand why, even today, it is more proper than science's fragmented terminology. We can use said terminology to explain to laymen, the concepts, but the true language itself has not changed, ever - for a reason. It may be adapted by various myths, legends, religions etc - but the language, the symbols, the wording, is what it is, because it IS.


Isn't it, Who gave you the right to play God and grab the moral high ground? From whom have you adopted this doctrine?

Since when do humans have trouble playing God? If someone has a right to live, do they not also have a right to die? How one-sided of you.


So as long as you have your health and your riches, the little 5 year old girl with cancer can go get lost as far as you are concerned then?

Is that a question or a statement? :p
As for the many that are suffering - again, that is NATURE. Perhaps you havent studied animals, plants, natural disasters etc. "Misfortune" befalls those it does, and regardless, individuals and groups fight over the recourses. Again, equivalence. Who are you to change the scales, thinking you have a better method, a more just character, than God, or Nature, or whatever you wanna call it? How arrogant.
If you wanna play God with us, then you're gonna need a bigger view of what IS, but feel free to remain a bombastic fragmented human. But i must ask, what does a mere fragmented-human know of playing God? :p

Also, to put it in further perspective - yes, i live while others die. One day i will die while others live. Its ok, and when its time, i wish them the same good that i wish them now. If they are given to me / placed in front of me to personally help, i do, and i have, and i continue to. You judge things that you know not of.


It's this kind of attitude that has made the world an horrible place to live in, i'd be ashamed to spout such nonsence.
Nature has her ways of acheiving its goals and it will do it regardless of whether there are self indulgent Yoda talking people on the planet or not.
Sorry but there is no better way of saying it.

What kind of thinking is that? Surely you know the road to hell is paved with good intentions - so by all means, supposed "hero" - go tell God/Nature how it fucked up, but thankfully, it made you, so you could set it straight. ;)

Yes, Nature does achieve its goals, by the blood of the Life of itself that it devours and rebirths. Solve et Coagula - Breakdown and Recreate. How is it that we, who are looking at the whole, are self-indulgent when it is you who parades around that you have the answer, and everyone else is wrong? You are being self-indulgent to your arrogant ego. You mask it with being a "realist" but in fact you have a messiah complex and are wanting to "set-us all straight" in order to "save the world" or some such nonsense. Laughable.




~Seth-Ra

zoas23
03-12-2012, 02:39 AM
I am madly in love with Wittgenstein.... his Tractatus may have the answer you are looking for.... i.e, with the language of Alchemy is simply like a ladder that has to be thrown away to really understand it... and why such thing is not a choice.

There are many secrets in the world, but the secret forumla of the Stone may have a different nature than the secret formula of the Coca-Cola.
I am 100% sure that the forumla of the Coca-Cola can easily be explained in plan language if someone wanted to

The forumla is as simple as A + B + C + D + E = Coca Cola.

.... but the Stone, I don't think a literal explanation is even possible.... I don't even think that there's a forumla that goes:

A + B + C + D + E = The Stone.
(which is what I hink you are looking for).

Wouldn't that be just like asking for a literal explanation of what is God?
In my opinion, a lot of people read the sacred texts in a very literal way, forgetting that a metaphor is a matephor... a lot of damage was caused because of it.

5.6 The limits of my language mean the limits of my world.

5.62 This remark provides a key to the question, to what extent solipsism is a truth.

In fact what solipsism means, is quite correct, only it cannot be said, but it shows itself.

That the world is my world, shows itself in the fact that the limits of the language (the language which I understand) mean the limits of my world.

5.63 I am the world. (The microcosm.)

5.64 Here we see that solipsism strictly carried out coincides with pure realism. The I in solipsism shrinks to an extensionless point and there remains the reality co-ordinated with it.

6.41 The sense of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is and happens as it does happen. In it there is no value -- and if there were, it would be of no value.

If there is a value which is of value, it must lie outside all happening and being-so. For all happening and being-so is accidental.

What makes it non-accidental cannot lie in the world, for otherwise this would again be accidental.

It must lie outside the world.

6.42 Hence also there can be no ethical propositions. Propositions cannot express anything higher.


6.44 Not how the world is, is the mystical, but that it is.

6.45 The contemplation of the world sub specie aeterni is its contemplation as a limited whole.

The feeling that the world is a limited whole is the mystical feeling.

6.52 We feel that even if all possible scientific questions be asnwered, the problems of life have still not been touched at all. Of course there is then no question left, and just this is the answer.

6.54 My propositions are elucidatory in this way: he who understands me finally recognizes them as senseless, when he has climbed out through them, on them, over them. (He must so to speak throw away the ladder, after he has climbed up on it.) He must surmount these propositions; then he sees the world rightly.

III
03-12-2012, 04:52 AM
Hi Nav,

Did you know that there is a subset of Tamtric and similar Alchemists who think that the whole "gold" and a physical stone business and all that is 100% red herring, to protect the true sacred art from the eyes of the profane who are seeking gold, riches and power. Even aside from that those pursuing Tantric Alchemy, and that can include the those doing a specific form of shaltipat yoga that leads to the alchemical marriage, use a number of different language sets. And personally I am working to develop the language of OOM, Object Oriented Metaphysics. It can be a very powerful mode of description.

I've never pursued lab alchemy and don't feel or have any need to do so. I don't personally have any idea if the physical lab alchemy is possible or not. I don't think this is what you want to hear, or maybe it is. So have fun.

nav2010
03-12-2012, 04:47 PM
Its not a pretense. You may know some meanings, but true understanding of the language is being lacked, or you'd understand why, even today, it is more proper than science's fragmented terminology. We can use said terminology to explain to laymen, the concepts, but the true language itself has not changed, ever - for a reason. It may be adapted by various myths, legends, religions etc - but the language, the symbols, the wording, is what it is, because it IS.



Since when do humans have trouble playing God? If someone has a right to live, do they not also have a right to die? How one-sided of you.



Is that a question or a statement? :p
As for the many that are suffering - again, that is NATURE. Perhaps you havent studied animals, plants, natural disasters etc. "Misfortune" befalls those it does, and regardless, individuals and groups fight over the recourses. Again, equivalence. Who are you to change the scales, thinking you have a better method, a more just character, than God, or Nature, or whatever you wanna call it? How arrogant.
If you wanna play God with us, then you're gonna need a bigger view of what IS, but feel free to remain a bombastic fragmented human. But i must ask, what does a mere fragmented-human know of playing God? :p

Also, to put it in further perspective - yes, i live while others die. One day i will die while others live. Its ok, and when its time, i wish them the same good that i wish them now. If they are given to me / placed in front of me to personally help, i do, and i have, and i continue to. You judge things that you know not of.



What kind of thinking is that? Surely you know the road to hell is paved with good intentions - so by all means, supposed "hero" - go tell God/Nature how it fucked up, but thankfully, it made you, so you could set it straight. ;)

Yes, Nature does achieve its goals, by the blood of the Life of itself that it devours and rebirths. Solve et Coagula - Breakdown and Recreate. How is it that we, who are looking at the whole, are self-indulgent when it is you who parades around that you have the answer, and everyone else is wrong? You are being self-indulgent to your arrogant ego. You mask it with being a "realist" but in fact you have a messiah complex and are wanting to "set-us all straight" in order to "save the world" or some such nonsense. Laughable.




~Seth-Ra
Well well Seth-ra arn't you the lucky one. While us mere mortals suffer the consequences of our collective conscience for wanting a fairer, safer, cleaner and honest planet you don't seem to suffer such a set back in your search for immortality. I'm no messiah figure Seth-Ra, I just remind people of their responsibility as a human being to treat others with the same respect as they would require from everyone else. I don't really care for the excuses you have given yourself so you don't have to have a conscience where the rest of humanity is concerned.
Sorry but I don't have the answers that any of you on here are looking for, I havn't come to talk Yoda or in the tongue of the sages, I don't want any respect for knowing something that someone else doesn't and I don't pretend to know any more than any of you.
What I do know is this - We are all on this planet together and the way i see it collectively we could make it a much better place for our children and our childrens children. Any morcel of help will be appreciated and as for myself and my contribution, I expect my family and my friends to treat me with the same respect as I give them, which means being kind, generous, unselfish and honourable when ever i can and not just when it suits me to do so.
I don't think that such an attitude is either laughable or fragmented Seth-Ra and it isn't playing at God either. You on the other hand by making statements like 'yes, i live while others die' are playing at God in my humble opinion and your attitude toward the rest of humanity has a bitter taste that the rest of us wouldn't like to swallow. The reason I think this way Seth-Ra is because there is no difference in someone witholding the 'power to save lives' than someone dropping a bomb on them and killing them. It is one and the same thing - the ability to destroy life.

nav2010
03-12-2012, 04:51 PM
Hi Nav,

Did you know that there is a subset of Tamtric and similar Alchemists who think that the whole "gold" and a physical stone business and all that is 100% red herring, to protect the true sacred art from the eyes of the profane who are seeking gold, riches and power. Even aside from that those pursuing Tantric Alchemy, and that can include the those doing a specific form of shaltipat yoga that leads to the alchemical marriage, use a number of different language sets. And personally I am working to develop the language of OOM, Object Oriented Metaphysics. It can be a very powerful mode of description.

I've never pursued lab alchemy and don't feel or have any need to do so. I don't personally have any idea if the physical lab alchemy is possible or not. I don't think this is what you want to hear, or maybe it is. So have fun.

Thankyou for your reply III, yes I am aware of the philosophical and psycological sides of the sacred art and good luck with that if you think it will make you and the people that surround you stronger and better people.

Seth-Ra
03-12-2012, 06:04 PM
Well well Seth-ra arn't you the lucky one. While us mere mortals suffer the consequences of our collective conscience for wanting a fairer, safer, cleaner and honest planet you don't seem to suffer such a set back in your search for immortality. I'm no messiah figure Seth-Ra, I just remind people of their responsibility as a human being to treat others with the same respect as they would require from everyone else. I don't really care for the excuses you have given yourself so you don't have to have a conscience where the rest of humanity is concerned.
Sorry but I don't have the answers that any of you on here are looking for, I havn't come to talk Yoda or in the tongue of the sages, I don't want any respect for knowing something that someone else doesn't and I don't pretend to know any more than any of you.
What I do know is this - We are all on this planet together and the way i see it collectively we could make it a much better place for our children and our childrens children. Any morcel of help will be appreciated and as for myself and my contribution, I expect my family and my friends to treat me with the same respect as I give them, which means being kind, generous, unselfish and honourable when ever i can and not just when it suits me to do so.
I don't think that such an attitude is either laughable or fragmented Seth-Ra and it isn't playing at God either. You on the other hand by making statements like 'yes, i live while others die' are playing at God in my humble opinion and your attitude toward the rest of humanity has a bitter taste that the rest of us wouldn't like to swallow. The reason I think this way Seth-Ra is because there is no difference in someone witholding the 'power to save lives' than someone dropping a bomb on them and killing them. It is one and the same thing - the ability to destroy life.

You are completely ignoring and attempting to side-step my point. You also mis-quote me with the "yes, i live while others die" part. If you are going to quote me, quote all of me - and see the entire picture. You also live while others die, and one day the table will flip. There is nothing unjust or unfair about Life, it comes and goes for everyone.

Yes, by withholding, we "play God" - you do the same by forcing your power/knowledge/whatever onto others. No matter what you do, youre "playing God" - so do come off the ridiculous high-horse. Ya know who else wanted to make the world a better place by forcing their brand of salvation onto it? The Roman Catholic Church during the inquisitions and the crusades - the salvation is open to all people, if they will accept it, so they tried to make them accept it. Guess how that worked out - thats right, more harm than good.

No one here is saying they dont and havent helped people, i help them as much as they'll let me. So long as we are bringing up Godly examples and mindsets, it is said that God does not force anyone, free will and all that. That does not mean there are not consequences for peoples chosen actions - hopefully they learn from them. If people want what we offer, we freely offer it. If they dont, that is not our problem - what will be, will be.


While us mere mortals suffer the consequences of our collective conscience for wanting a fairer, safer, cleaner and honest planet you don't seem to suffer such a set back in your search for immortality.

Again, your arrogance - thinking you have a more fair, and just way of things than Nature or God themselves. No, i dont suffer such - because im at peace with what IS. The world is clean enough for me to live for as long as needed. Everything is fair, even if i cant see it from my dualistic perspective - singularly i know it is. Safety is a crock of crap - anything can kill you at anytime, Life is a gift, appreciate it, and learn the ebb and flow of it, you may keep your present form a little longer. Honesty can be seen with discerning eyes/eye/spirit, regardless of false words dripping from the tongues of the wicked - i do not hide anything, therefore they cannot hide from me, what could be more honest? You also presume i search for immortality - but why would i search for that which i am? Silliness. :)

You equate "saving lives" to healing, or other fanciful powers of the Alchemists - but that is still fragmented. Keeping something in its current form does not "save" it. Cultivating a fearless, healthy, vibrant spirit that radiates through the current physical form, would be more akin to "saving" someone, then helping them out of their temporary afflictions.

You say my attitude towards the rest of humanity has a bitter taste eh? I wont deny you that, because Truth does not always taste like honey, especially when you reject it. There is no difference in withholding power, and using power, when it comes to playing God. Luckily, while we practice the Art, the Macrocosmic powers are perfecting it, and all is as it should be - its getting better, it'll get worse before it does though, and that too, is ok.

You mention the ability to destroy - so let me ask you: If someone breaks into your house, threatening the lives of your family, what will you do? If you do nothing, and your family dies - you are responsible for allowing it. If you blow the burglar out of his gods damned boots, you save your family - yet you still destroyed him/her. No matter what you do, you "play God" - so develop a larger view of things. A larger view may not change your dualistic-here-and-now reaction and situation, but you better understand it, and tread on the road at a higher level.
As for whether youre fragmented at the moment - so long as you only see this one-sided concept of how to help, or save people, so long as you see all that is as being unjust or wicked, yes - you are fragmented cause you are not looking at the balanced whole. Youre free to continue to disagree with me, and mistake reasons for excuses - you have that right, just as i have my right to see your fragmentation and point it out so long as you shout it from the roof tops. ;)

Do try to understand, im not saying youre wrong for wanting to help people, but people have to want it, and you'll sadly find many that do not. That is where the larger view comes in - cause you realize its ok. :)
I would also caution/advise that you stop seeing the world as a victim, its patronizing and belittling to Creation and the beings that make it up. For all the "evil" we see, good and Light can come of it. Those who keep it in the dark, do so by their own hands, it is not mine, nor your, problem. Everyone gets to choose, thats what it means for us to be made in God's image, and thus, get to play like Them. ;)

Besides, it will all work out regardless - because it IS. :cool:




~Seth-Ra

nav2010
03-12-2012, 07:13 PM
You are completely ignoring and attempting to side-step my point. You also mis-quote me with the "yes, i live while others die" part. If you are going to quote me, quote all of me - and see the entire picture. You also live while others die, and one day the table will flip. There is nothing unjust or unfair about Life, it comes and goes for everyone.
No, I used part of your own words to deeply exaggerate my point of what alchemy means at face value.

Yes, by withholding, we "play God" - you do the same by forcing your power/knowledge/whatever onto others. No matter what you do, youre "playing God" - so do come off the ridiculous high-horse. Ya know who else wanted to make the world a better place by forcing their brand of salvation onto it? The Roman Catholic Church during the inquisitions and the crusades - the salvation is open to all people, if they will accept it, so they tried to make them accept it. Guess how that worked out - thats right, more harm than good.
I'm glad you admitted that you play at God. I don't enforce my power on anyone, I encourage free thinking in all people of all walks of life and I don't expect anyone to follow any religion what so ever, In fact I would rather encourage them to ignore religion in favour of a free spirit.


No one here is saying they dont and havent helped people, i help them as much as they'll let me. So long as we are bringing up Godly examples and mindsets, it is said that God does not force anyone, free will and all that. That does not mean there are not consequences for peoples chosen actions - hopefully they learn from them. If people want what we offer, we freely offer it. If they dont, that is not our problem - what will be, will be.
You don't have to force people to help them. The rest of that statement is contemptible.

Again, your arrogance - thinking you have a more fair, and just way of things than Nature or God themselves. No, i dont suffer such - because im at peace with what IS. The world is clean enough for me to live for as long as needed. Everything is fair, even if i cant see it from my dualistic perspective - singularly i know it is. Safety is a crock of crap - anything can kill you at anytime, Life is a gift, appreciate it, and learn the ebb and flow of it, you may keep your present form a little longer. Honesty can be seen with discerning eyes/eye/spirit, regardless of false words dripping from the tongues of the wicked - i do not hide anything, therefore they cannot hide from me, what could be more honest? You also presume i search for immortality - but why would i search for that which i am? Silliness.

The only reason you have this attitude is because you are one of the 'haves' rather than the 'have nots'.
but why would i search for that which i am? Silliness. care to elaborate on that?

You equate "saving lives" to healing, or other fanciful powers of the Alchemists - but that is still fragmented. Keeping something in its current form does not "save" it. Cultivating a fearless, healthy, vibrant spirit that radiates through the current physical form, would be more akin to "saving" someone, then helping them out of their temporary afflictions.
Just how in Gods name does a five year old child suffering with cancer adopt an healthy vibrant spirit? Again you are speaking of your own personal experience of the world and not looking at it from the 'not haves' prospective.


You mention the ability to destroy - so let me ask you: If someone breaks into your house, threatening the lives of your family, what will you do? If you do nothing, and your family dies - you are responsible for allowing it. If you blow the burglar out of his gods damned boots, you save your family - yet you still destroyed him/her. No matter what you do, you "play God" - so develop a larger view of things. A larger view may not change your dualistic-here-and-now reaction and situation, but you better understand it, and tread on the road at a higher level.
There's no doubt about it, I would destroy a life to save my own family. That is a basic instinct in most of us and doesn't come into the argument. On the other hand I wouldn't destroy a life for the sake of it or because I thought I had the high moral ground in choosing who lives or dies. As for the road - you take the high road but i'll stay on the low road if I may. I'm not asking you to change anything you do, I'm merely pointing out that there may be a reality tunnel from which to look through which is different to yours. I will be critical of your reality tunnel if I think it is unbeneficial to the whole of mankind which I think it is.

As for whether youre fragmented at the moment - so long as you only see this one-sided concept of how to help, or save people, so long as you see all that is as being unjust or wicked, yes - you are fragmented cause you are not looking at the balanced whole. Youre free to continue to disagree with me, and mistake reasons for excuses - you have that right, just as i have my right to see your fragmentation and point it out so long as you shout it from the roof tops.
I don't see the art as being wicked, I see it has a massive opportunity to take a new road. Where I see an opportunity you see weakness, I believe that weakness stems from your own selfishness and inability to see the world through different prospectives of different people. Your attitude is that you are an 'have' and that is how it IS. But feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

I would also caution/advise that you stop seeing the world as a victim, its patronizing and belittling to Creation and the beings that make it up. For all the "evil" we see, good and Light can come of it. Those who keep it in the dark, do so by their own hands, it is not mine, nor your, problem. Everyone gets to choose, thats what it means for us to be made in God's image, and thus, get to play like Them.
I would also caution /advise you to stop seeing the world through your own set of 'Yoda' goggles. Yes it is 'mine and your' problem. The world isn't the rosy picture that you paint and I will remind you that while you sit playing with your ideas that one half of the world lives in poverty and starvation so the other half can live a 'rosy' life. If it isn't mine and your problem just who the hells is it?
I wish you'd stop saying that everyone gets to 'choose'. No they don't and no one is keeping it in the dark, it's in the dark by our own choosing as human beings without a conscience. You can choose your own reality tunnel from which to view the world but that reality isn't a truth through the eyes of the many.
With all due respect, it's a very selfish anology of your own planet but I fully understand your dilema, you 'have' and thats how it IS.

Seth-Ra
03-12-2012, 10:32 PM
No, I used part of your own words to deeply exaggerate my point of what alchemy means at face value.

Yes, exaggerate out of full context. The point is invalid cause its half-assed.


I'm glad you admitted that you play at God. I don't enforce my power on anyone, I encourage free thinking in all people of all walks of life and I don't expect anyone to follow any religion what so ever, In fact I would rather encourage them to ignore religion in favour of a free spirit.

Free thinking? Hypocritical - youre only allowing free thinking of fragmented perspectives, if anyone poses a unity perspective, you call it despicable and evil, selfish even. You might as well have said "All views are welcome here - except that view!" :p youre playing God with what you view as acceptable.


You don't have to force people to help them. The rest of that statement is contemptible.

You cannot force them - you can only help them if they want it, which is my point, and youre attempting to force your fragmented "save the children" view. You also dont help them with hand-outs, but hand-ups, but you cannot teach those who will not listen - after all, youre blinding yourself to what myself and others have said in this thread. There was nothing contemptible about my statement, sorry you see it as such.


The only reason you have this attitude is because you are one of the 'haves' rather than the 'have nots'.

Again, your arrogance - you have no idea what i have or do not have, nor do you know the conditions of my family and friends. You make assumptions because you refuse to see the whole, and thus make it "me against them" when infact, im against no one. As i said, im not criticizing your fragmented perspective of wanting to help people - im saying you also need a united/whole perspective.


but why would i search for that which i am? Silliness. care to elaborate on that?

You wouldnt believe me if i told you - which is part of my point in all this. So no, i think i'll keep my pearls for the moment. ;)


Just how in Gods name does a five year old child suffering with cancer adopt an healthy vibrant spirit? Again you are speaking of your own personal experience of the world and not looking at it from the 'not haves' prospective.

Why would you condemn a child's short life to being one filled with darkness and despair, instead of making it one of hope, purpose, and perseverance? What difference does it make when she dies - at 5, or at 95, or even 995? No, her life isnt long - but it doesnt have to be bad, so why focus on that? Everyone has problems - the "haves" do also - plagued at night with problems of sustainability and desire of protection, and are just as likely to get illnesses as anyone else, illnesses that their money and "having power" cant fix - they are just as helpless. Again you only choose to see what you want, instead of it all.


There's no doubt about it, I would destroy a life to save my own family. That is a basic instinct in most of us and doesn't come into the argument. On the other hand I wouldn't destroy a life for the sake of it or because I thought I had the high moral ground in choosing who lives or dies. As for the road - you take the high road but i'll stay on the low road if I may. I'm not asking you to change anything you do, I'm merely pointing out that there may be a reality tunnel from which to look through which is different to yours. I will be critical of your reality tunnel if I think it is unbeneficial to the whole of mankind which I think it is.

You dont understand that the "basic instinct" does not simply "stop" at defense, but also at everyday life. You determine in every moment, what lives and what dies around you, and for who's sake it does these things for. Every bite of food you take, every breath your breath, from bacteria, to animals, to plants - it is all life that youre playing God with. Do come off the self-righteousness. Its hindering your growth.


I don't see the art as being wicked, I see it has a massive opportunity to take a new road. Where I see an opportunity you see weakness, I believe that weakness stems from your own selfishness and inability to see the world through different prospectives of different people. Your attitude is that you are an 'have' and that is how it IS. But feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

I see a weakness? I do believe that more people will continue to come to the Art - and that is because nothing about it is obsolete, its actually ahead of everything. Again, we do not withhold information and knowledge, it withholds itself - and im not going to dose someone's drink with a cure when they tell me they dont want it. I mean that literally and symbolically - we withhold, because they dont want it, if they want it, we give it. "You have not, cause you ask not." - so sure, we all still play God, you included, drop the whole pretense that youre somehow above being a human who makes decisions.
I have never said "i have [whatever] and fuck the ones who dont." - i dont know where you're reading that, but its not there. I do not consider myself a have, or a have-not. I am. So is everyone else.


I would also caution /advise you to stop seeing the world through your own set of 'Yoda' goggles. Yes it is 'mine and your' problem. The world isn't the rosy picture that you paint and I will remind you that while you sit playing with your ideas that one half of the world lives in poverty and starvation so the other half can live a 'rosy' life. If it isn't mine and your problem just who the hells is it?
I wish you'd stop saying that everyone gets to 'choose'. No they don't and no one is keeping it in the dark, it's in the dark by our own choosing as human beings without a conscience. You can choose your own reality tunnel from which to view the world but that reality isn't a truth through the eyes of the many.
With all due respect, it's a very selfish anology of your own planet but I fully understand your dilema, you 'have' and thats how it IS.

The only problems i have, are those set before me. If someone wants my help, im here to offer it. You would take people's choice, their Right of God-Image-Hood, away from them, just so you can belittle them as victims and in need of yours or our "help" - who is selfish here? you are projecting your own selfishness onto others. Your ego is doing nothing but fueling your arrogance, selfishness, and further increasing the chasm between your fragmented perspective, and the whole of what is.

By all means - help people, but develop yourself first, or youre part of the problem. "Remove the plank from your own eye" and all that. You need some global understanding to balance your crusade one, otherwise, you'll burn up the crops with the weeds. No, you do not fully understand my "dilemma" - you do not know me, and as i said before - what does a fragmented human know of playing God/All/One?

Everything has been said, if youre going to learn and grow, it has been presented to you. If youre not going to - which is your choice - then that is on you, and so is your actions, and your non-actions, as is everyone's.
If you have eyes, see. If you have ears, hear. If you choose to be deft and dumb, then im afraid we have nothing more to discuss.



good luck,
~Seth-Ra

nav2010
03-13-2012, 12:11 AM
Yes, exaggerate out of full context. The point is invalid cause its half-assed.



Free thinking? Hypocritical - youre only allowing free thinking of fragmented perspectives, if anyone poses a unity perspective, you call it despicable and evil, selfish even. You might as well have said "All views are welcome here - except that view!" :p youre playing God with what you view as acceptable.



You cannot force them - you can only help them if they want it, which is my point, and youre attempting to force your fragmented "save the children" view. You also dont help them with hand-outs, but hand-ups, but you cannot teach those who will not listen - after all, youre blinding yourself to what myself and others have said in this thread. There was nothing contemptible about my statement, sorry you see it as such.



Again, your arrogance - you have no idea what i have or do not have, nor do you know the conditions of my family and friends. You make assumptions because you refuse to see the whole, and thus make it "me against them" when infact, im against no one. As i said, im not criticizing your fragmented perspective of wanting to help people - im saying you also need a united/whole perspective.



You wouldnt believe me if i told you - which is part of my point in all this. So no, i think i'll keep my pearls for the moment. ;)



Why would you condemn a child's short life to being one filled with darkness and despair, instead of making it one of hope, purpose, and perseverance? What difference does it make when she dies - at 5, or at 95, or even 995? No, her life isnt long - but it doesnt have to be bad, so why focus on that? Everyone has problems - the "haves" do also - plagued at night with problems of sustainability and desire of protection, and are just as likely to get illnesses as anyone else, illnesses that their money and "having power" cant fix - they are just as helpless. Again you only choose to see what you want, instead of it all.



You dont understand that the "basic instinct" does not simply "stop" at defense, but also at everyday life. You determine in every moment, what lives and what dies around you, and for who's sake it does these things for. Every bite of food you take, every breath your breath, from bacteria, to animals, to plants - it is all life that youre playing God with. Do come off the self-righteousness. Its hindering your growth.



I see a weakness? I do believe that more people will continue to come to the Art - and that is because nothing about it is obsolete, its actually ahead of everything. Again, we do not withhold information and knowledge, it withholds itself - and im not going to dose someone's drink with a cure when they tell me they dont want it. I mean that literally and symbolically - we withhold, because they dont want it, if they want it, we give it. "You have not, cause you ask not." - so sure, we all still play God, you included, drop the whole pretense that youre somehow above being a human who makes decisions.
I have never said "i have [whatever] and fuck the ones who dont." - i dont know where you're reading that, but its not there. I do not consider myself a have, or a have-not. I am. So is everyone else.



The only problems i have, are those set before me. If someone wants my help, im here to offer it. You would take people's choice, their Right of God-Image-Hood, away from them, just so you can belittle them as victims and in need of yours or our "help" - who is selfish here? you are projecting your own selfishness onto others. Your ego is doing nothing but fueling your arrogance, selfishness, and further increasing the chasm between your fragmented perspective, and the whole of what is.

By all means - help people, but develop yourself first, or youre part of the problem. "Remove the plank from your own eye" and all that. You need some global understanding to balance your crusade one, otherwise, you'll burn up the crops with the weeds. No, you do not fully understand my "dilemma" - you do not know me, and as i said before - what does a fragmented human know of playing God/All/One?

Everything has been said, if youre going to learn and grow, it has been presented to you. If youre not going to - which is your choice - then that is on you, and so is your actions, and your non-actions, as is everyone's.
If you have eyes, see. If you have ears, hear. If you choose to be deft and dumb, then im afraid we have nothing more to discuss.



good luck,
~Seth-Ra
here is one my favourite people talking about the word IS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEOIfLcjdbg
Most of what you said is just Yoda talk to me and i've heard it a thousand times before. But I will refer to a few of your statements which i find profound to say the least.
What difference does it make when she dies - at 5, or at 95, or even 995
I believe we should all as human beings experience life to the largest degree that we can, sometimes that is not possible because of the frailties that exist within life such as premature death through accidents, wars, illness and so forth like you have mentioned. I know exactly where you are coming from in your explanation and it would have been much easier to say 'shit happens'.
Again we see you looking at the world from a blinkered prospective, it doesn't matter if I don't know you personally - the way you talk about life is a good indication of how your mind works. 'I'm alright Jack, fuck you' comes to mind.
fragmented perspective of wanting to help people
For me helping people isn't fragmented, I either want to help them or I don't - there is no inbetween.
Everything has been said, if youre going to learn and grow, it has been presented to you. If youre not going to - which is your choice - then that is on you, and so is your actions, and your non-actions, as is everyone's.
If you have eyes, see. If you have ears, hear. If you choose to be deft and dumb, then im afraid we have nothing more to discuss.

I could never see the world through your eyes and ears, you have infact presented me with nothing, I don't have to make a choice, I don't have to learn and grow but i agree that everything has been said.
Like previously mentioned 'you IS - but i'm definately NOT
In your next blatant disregard for anyones right to live a fulfilled and complete life, before you step on the spider, just remind the spider that you IS and it IS not.

Seth-Ra
03-13-2012, 01:13 AM
here is one my favourite people talking about the word IS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEOIfLcjdbg
Most of what you said is just Yoda talk to me and i've heard it a thousand times before. But I will refer to a few of your statements which i find profound to say the least.
What difference does it make when she dies - at 5, or at 95, or even 995
I believe we should all as human beings experience life to the largest degree that we can, sometimes that is not possible because of the frailties that exist within life such as premature death through accidents, wars, illness and so forth like you have mentioned. I know exactly where you are coming from in your explanation and it would have been much easier to say 'shit happens'.
Again we see you looking at the world from a blinkered prospective, it doesn't matter if I don't know you personally - the way you talk about life is a good indication of how your mind works. 'I'm alright Jack, fuck you' comes to mind.
fragmented perspective of wanting to help people
For me helping people isn't fragmented, I either want to help them or I don't - there is no inbetween.
Everything has been said, if youre going to learn and grow, it has been presented to you. If youre not going to - which is your choice - then that is on you, and so is your actions, and your non-actions, as is everyone's.
If you have eyes, see. If you have ears, hear. If you choose to be deft and dumb, then im afraid we have nothing more to discuss.

I could never see the world through your eyes and ears, you have infact presented me with nothing, I don't have to make a choice, I don't have to learn and grow but i agree that everything has been said.
Like previously mentioned 'you IS - but i'm definately NOT
In your next blatant disregard for anyones right to live a fulfilled and complete life, before you step on the spider, just remind the spider that you IS and it IS not.

The video is cute, and while he possesses knowledge, his understanding is lacking, or he wouldnt be angry about the things he mentioned. As for using "maybe" and such, or uncertainty, rather than IS - thats fine for fragments and shifting from perception to perception, chaos magicians do that all the time. But the All - what is seen and what is possible - everything, is One, unified, living thing, it IS, for all possibilities are within it, and expressed in it, in various ways and forms.

You seem to confuse "living life to the fullest", with "living a long life". Value is not dependent on time, any amount of time is enough time to have value.

Yes, you either want to help, or you dont - thats dualistic, and thus fragmented. You cannot see how not-doing anything is also doing something and vis-versa.

You say you could never see the world through the perspective others and myself have presented it - that is you choosing.

Also, you are not hearing/seeing me talk about Life, if you did, you wouldnt think of me as having a "im fine, fuck you" mentality. That is telling of your flawed interpretation of whats being said.

I never tell the "spider" it is not - i tell it that it is. If we are at odds in the here-and-now-fragmented-space, its sacrifice goes with respected note, as id like mine to be one day. If it and i are not at odds, then there is peace. It is that simple.

Since you dont like the "Yoda" talk - how about some Darth Vader: http://www.weekendcontent.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/10/Darth-Vader-I-FIND-YOUR-LACK-OF-FAITH-DISTURBING.jpg
Also, side note - Anakin/Vader did bring balance to the Force, by turning back to being good, and killing the Dark Lord of the Sith. He also defied the Jedi Order, in the process having Luke. Everything, even the evil, worked out for the overall good.

Like i said, everything works out, all will balance out, and it all acts on itself in order to teach and grow itself. You said you dont need to learn and grow - that is also you making a choice. Because of your choice, im now done.
Sincerely, i wish you good luck. :)



~Seth-Ra

III
03-13-2012, 04:33 AM
Thankyou for your reply III, yes I am aware of the philosophical and psycological sides of the sacred art and good luck with that if you think it will make you and the people that surround you stronger and better people.

Some you win, some you loose and sometimes you miss the punt. Enjoy your feast of red herring Next time get the final prospectus.

Ghislain
03-13-2012, 10:35 AM
Below I have transcribed some of what Robert Anton Wilson says in the video posted by nav2010.

Wilson makes a big point about the word “IS” and that we should dispense with it.

Let’s look at some of the RAW material...


I think my writing comes out of anger and optimism. Anger of the stupid maniacal and corrupt crowd
that’s(that IS) running the world at present.

It IS obvious they’re (they are) getting closer and closer to the edge where they can
cure anything, meanwhile the world IS moving closer and closer to edge where they
can kill us all. That’s(that IS} very interesting, science IS going in one direction and
politics IS going in the other.

And so everything IS a union of contraries, it’s(it IS) a coincidence of you being there
and the universe being there and everything IS one at the same time, because there IS
no green without the grass and there IS no green without you and so the greenness IS a
transaction that binds you and the grass together.

There’s(there IS) an infinite expanse of signals for plotting(not sure if plotting is right, he mumbles)
into our nervous system and being processed by our higher neural centres in the brain. We are all
organising and orchestrating it according to our own particular life history, our genetic background,
our early imprints, our conditioning, our learning and any re-imprinting techniques we may have
learned since then. So we are all living in different worlds; it’s(it IS) astonishing that we can
communicate at all.

Our experience IS generated by us; we are not generating it out of nothing,. <-- :) but we are
generating it; we are creating the the realities that we’re(we are) experiencing from moment to
moment. So there’s(there IS) total unity between you and the universe whether you are aware
of it or not; the universe you live in IS your creation.

He definitely seems to know what "IS". He also uses the word "are" a lot, which is only the plural of "is"

And who are "they"?

I do not dissagree with what Wilson is saying so long as he realises it IS only his opinion right or wrong.

nav2010 IMO you are on the right road, but you do need to look at the view as you travel it.

You made a statement in your reply to Seth Ra, who I am not protecting here as, I am sure, Seth is quite capable of
doing that himself, I am just using it as a point of reference.


I know exactly where you are coming from in your explanation and it would have been much easier to
say 'shit happens'.
Again we see you looking at the world from a blinkered prospective, it doesn't matter if I don't know you
personally - the way you talk about life is a good indication of how your mind works. 'I'm alright Jack,
fuckyou' comes to mind.

There are about six billion people in this world, give or take a billion or so. I'm guessing we all, somewhere
along the way, have helped someone within this writhing mass in some particular way.

nav2010 are you saying you want to help them all? If this is the case then post your phone number and we
will see that the best efforts are made to deliver it to everyone.

Do you get my point?

We all do what we can do, some better than others, but I won't lose sleep over that.

It IS our duty to take care of ourselves first so that we are still able to help others and not be a burden on
them. I am sure you are aware of the quote "God helps those that help themselves".

Ghislain

EDIT:

I used to play a game on AOL called BattleTech

New members would come along and get shot then accuse the victor of cheating...
it wasn't until that member had been around for a while that he realised the some
people had acquired a skill he could not have seen until he acquired it himself.

Guess what! then he was called a cheat.

nav2010
03-13-2012, 04:03 PM
Ghislain, it is impossible to help everyone in the world but i'm not talking about everyone and I'm not talking about just me helping. Remember Bob Geldof and his campaign to help the people of the third world? Why does it take a rock star to realise the suffering instead of a politician?
Speaks volumes about the world and it's lack of conscience.
But thats just how it IS

nav2010
03-13-2012, 04:04 PM
Some you win, some you loose and sometimes you miss the punt. Enjoy your feast of red herring Next time get the final prospectus.
I don't speak Yoda, forgive me.

nav2010
03-13-2012, 04:12 PM
The video is cute, and while he possesses knowledge, his understanding is lacking, or he wouldnt be angry about the things he mentioned. As for using "maybe" and such, or uncertainty, rather than IS - thats fine for fragments and shifting from perception to perception, chaos magicians do that all the time. But the All - what is seen and what is possible - everything, is One, unified, living thing, it IS, for all possibilities are within it, and expressed in it, in various ways and forms.

You seem to confuse "living life to the fullest", with "living a long life". Value is not dependent on time, any amount of time is enough time to have value.

Yes, you either want to help, or you dont - thats dualistic, and thus fragmented. You cannot see how not-doing anything is also doing something and vis-versa.

You say you could never see the world through the perspective others and myself have presented it - that is you choosing.

Also, you are not hearing/seeing me talk about Life, if you did, you wouldnt think of me as having a "im fine, fuck you" mentality. That is telling of your flawed interpretation of whats being said.

I never tell the "spider" it is not - i tell it that it is. If we are at odds in the here-and-now-fragmented-space, its sacrifice goes with respected note, as id like mine to be one day. If it and i are not at odds, then there is peace. It is that simple.

Since you dont like the "Yoda" talk - how about some Darth Vader: http://www.weekendcontent.com/wp-content/uploads//2010/10/Darth-Vader-I-FIND-YOUR-LACK-OF-FAITH-DISTURBING.jpg
Also, side note - Anakin/Vader did bring balance to the Force, by turning back to being good, and killing the Dark Lord of the Sith. He also defied the Jedi Order, in the process having Luke. Everything, even the evil, worked out for the overall good.

Like i said, everything works out, all will balance out, and it all acts on itself in order to teach and grow itself. You said you dont need to learn and grow - that is also you making a choice. Because of your choice, im now done.
Sincerely, i wish you good luck. :)



~Seth-Ra
Because the world is largely a product of our senses or our own neurological system it has been said by many philosophers that our perception of the world is gamble which i believe to be true. I see a different reality tunnel than you Seth and you see a different one from me, that doesn't make you right or me right, it just explains that we both gamble on each of our perspective of the world being correct.
I have thought about the consequences of me being wrong but have you seth?
Now I'm done, good luck lord Vador.

Seth-Ra
03-13-2012, 04:38 PM
Because the world is largely a product of our senses or our own neurological system it has been said by many philosophers that our perception of the world is gamble which i believe to be true.

As i like to point out to my psychology-enthralled friends, you may choose to believe that my bullet or my sword is made of foam, but that doesnt change that its actually steel, and you may choose to believe and make yourself think i missed, but that doesnt negate that youre bleeding. ;) (tis all analogy - it makes my point :) )
Also, since ive only seen monks have that kinda pain suppression at will (not saying others cant, but it takes practice) - it still wouldnt change the fact of what just happened, and for those that dont have such mental control, they would just more readily accept the truth of the matter, since they have no mental filters/blocks keeping them from seeing what is.
It is a neat thought though, and does demonstrate how a person can trick their own self - like so many of the masses do everyday.


I see a different reality tunnel than you Seth and you see a different one from me, that doesn't make you right or me right, it just explains that we both gamble on each of our persepective of the world being correct.

I know youre seeing it differently - as i said, youre only looking from a fragmented perception of the whole, and refuse to see the whole. I also said your view/desire to help and reach out is perfectly fine - ive not condemned that, i simply have said to broaden your view, see the whole, to find where the fragment fits properly in the picture. :)
Its only a chaotic, anything goes, mush, when its a buncha fragmented shards everywhere, but when they are unified, there is a glorious picture of Divine Order.


I have thought about the consequences of me being wrong but have you seth?

This question here is the main reason im responding - as im answering it out of courtesy; im done with the "debate", but im not shunning or ignoring you or anything, dont think im "at odds" with you. :)

To answer your question, yes, i have. Funny thing is, if im "wrong" - doesnt matter anymore than if im "right", as it all will work out accordingly, and thats the point. It is not my "view", it is outside of me, it is and i recognize it, and am at peace with it, and harmonize myself (by its Pattern) to flow with it. :)


Now I'm done, good luck lord Vador.

Hey thanks! :D




~Seth-Ra

nav2010
03-13-2012, 04:52 PM
You said you were done and you sneaked another one in. Your perception of how things are is still a gamble, it is an opinion or a theosis which is open to scrutiny the same as mine is. I trust you'll not be sneaking another one in?

Seth-Ra
03-13-2012, 05:04 PM
You said you were done and you sneaked another one in. Your perception of how things are is still a gamble, it is an opinion or a theosis which is open to scrutiny the same as mine is. I trust you'll not be sneaking another one in?

Lol no, twasnt a "sneak" - i responded to answer your question, and not wanting anything to be out of context, to keep it fair, i addressed the whole thing. :)

Im not arguing/debating/fighting - whatever - with you about it anymore, but i'll happily clarify and respond to questions. For instance:
I never said it wasnt open to scrutiny - people can think and say what they want about it, like you are, but i cant agree with the Unified View as being an "opinion", as its not a question, nor personally my view - it is. Others can choose to disregard it, but as i said, that doesnt negate it. Believe it or not, it still exists and is. If/when i die, it does not die with me, like my opinions do.
^ that is a clarification - you can take it or leave it, as its not opposing you, its only clarifying my meaning.

Again - not a sneak, just answering your question. :)
If you have no more questions - then im happy to leave it all here, as is. :)
You can agree to disagree with me, and i'll agree to partially disagree with you (mine is only partial, since i agree with the desire to help, but see a broader picture is needed). Is that fair enough?


~Seth-Ra

nav2010
03-13-2012, 05:24 PM
Believe it or not, it still exists and is Of course it does in your humble opinion.
When we meet on here in the next life (assuming we all live the same life an infinite number of times as ourselves) I shall enjoy it. Thankyou for your contribution to my thread, good luck and take care.

Seth-Ra
03-13-2012, 05:31 PM
Believe it or not, it still exists and is Of course it does in your humble opinion.
When we meet on here in the next life (assuming we all live the same life an infinite number of times as ourselves) I shall enjoy it.

Sounds like a fun plan. :)


Thankyou for your contribution to my thread, good luck and take care.

You too. :)




Until next time :D,

~Seth-Ra

III
03-13-2012, 07:19 PM
I don't speak Yoda, forgive me.


Yoda speak not I do.

Good luck with your red herring preparations if you think it will make you and the people that surround you stronger and better people.

horticult
03-13-2012, 10:03 PM
>Seth-Ra

after a month in that barrax please write down on paper some comments on your present beliefs
it will be first class material
just close it then in a drawer & check sometimes

Seth-Ra
03-13-2012, 10:48 PM
>Seth-Ra

after a month in that barrax please write down on paper some comments on your present beliefs
it will be first class material
just close it then in a drawer & check sometimes

The Song of Truth will still be the same, even if my place/note within it may change - i understand this, and no amount of "hell", from military or otherwise, will change it. I may not always like my present conditions, but i can appreciate them for letting me grow in new ways. Experiments in my Life-Lab. ;)

Philippians 4:11 (NLT)
Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have.
:cool:



~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
03-14-2012, 08:45 PM
You could call God nature or you could call Nature God, either way I doubt very much that nature intended for a select few to know her ways. What is a fairer position than everyone knowing? There isn't one unless you were born to be selfish.


Forgive my regressing if it appears that way but I was away from computers for a few days.
Nav, IF anyone has discovered the stone throughout history, we don't have any record of them
telling everybody. Why? Isn't there something non-scientific about a person who doesn't
know the secrets of nature or alchemy deciding that they should know them, that everyone
should? You don't see any near-sightedness in that?
And when does nature care about people? When is it fair?
You don't see that knowledge "belongs" in a mind that earned it?
What is realistic about giving people knowledge that they couldn't attain themselves?
Wisdom knows what people do with such "gifts". How can they not abuse them when
their mind and soul were not naturally prepared for them through their own striving?

Haven't you ever been in a relationship and tried to change/enlighten the other person?
Knowledge doesn't work that way - haven't you seen it? People change when life has
shown them the necessity for change, not when some person shares or tries to enforce
their knowledge on them - that knowledge is second-hand for them, not wisdom, not
founded on life experience aligned with mind and soul. Wise people know, without any
selfishness, what value it is to sow seed on barren fields. Alchemists know not to sow
their golden seed in a water or earth that is not homogenous to it. THAT is nature.
THAT is realistic.

solomon levi
03-14-2012, 08:58 PM
sure i think also this so i think this very similar to your opinion as always i have say in every situation
BUT? sorry!!! ( sure is absolutly correct and right ask deep verification and deep confront on some affermation etc) BUT sorry !!! your "answers" and your some "less provocations" etc ? is not the system correct to rapport with other members and friend ( as your answer Rogerc Solomon ) that made the way with you want confront in the forum and more also still is not good for my opinion your very "superficial" answer on the tannin give in the forum as you have made to solomon in post quote here ,
Originally Posted by solomon levi

Hi Nav.
Can you provide a source?
My dear fellow, the true nature of alchemical teaching is that when one discovers something, the initiate will know deep in his heart whether it is right or wrong.
There is no one on this forum that has discovered the real truth otherwise you wouldn't all be here and neither would I. So, in answer to your question about the source, the scource is both you and I. What do you have to lose?

So i think one answer as that (very sorry with all my respect "very much superficial") is not the method correct for start to made collaboration ( IMHO collaboration is one sirious and deep confront with date and verification of it date you or other give and confront very open wiht experience not only sorry a "little" "arrogant" answer QUOTE You know nothing of this art that I couldn't write on the back of a matchbox dear fellow.) and if you want create made one union for try with MAYBE also alchemy etc change the reality of this oppression and and enslavement of this world .

( sorry all for my bad english)

my best regards alfr

Well, you've been seen through here Nav.
In case Alfr's english was not clear to you, where is your generous and unselfish sharing
which you are arguing is the way of nature? You do not walk your own talk.

III
03-15-2012, 08:40 AM
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by nav2010 http://forum.alchemyforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?p=19994#post19994)
You could call God nature or you could call Nature God, either way I doubt very much that nature intended for a select few to know her ways. What is a fairer position than everyone knowing? There isn't one unless you were born to be selfish.


Forgive my regressing if it appears that way but I was away from computers for a few days. Nav, IF anyone has discovered the stone throughout history, we don't have any record of them telling everybody. Why? Isn't there something non-scientific about a person who doesn't know the secrets of nature or alchemy deciding that they should know them, that everyone should? You don't see any near-sightedness in that? And when does nature care about people? When is it fair? You don't see that knowledge "belongs" in a mind that earned it? What is realistic about giving people knowledge that they couldn't attain themselves?
Wisdom knows what people do with such "gifts". How can they not abuse them when their mind and soul were not naturally prepared for them through their own striving?

Haven't you ever been in a relationship and tried to change/enlighten the other person? Knowledge doesn't work that way - haven't you seen it? People change when life has shown them the necessity for change, not when some person shares or tries to enforce their knowledge on them - that knowledge is second-hand for them, not wisdom, not founded on life experience aligned with mind and soul. Wise people know, without any selfishness, what value it is to sow seed on barren fields. Alchemists know not to sow their golden seed in a water or earth that is not homogenous to it. THAT is nature.
THAT is realistic.


Hi Solomon,

I included your quote here because it was worth saying again. I agree most thoroughly


Hi Nav,

You could call God nature or you could call Nature God, either way I doubt very much that nature intended for a select few to know her ways. What is a fairer position than everyone knowing? There isn't one unless you were born to be selfish.

You are kidding us, right? Pulling Solomon's leg until it comes off leaving a ragged bleeding stump? Since you are not known for your sense of humour, at least as far as I've seen, on the off chance that you are serious here, perhaps I can attempt to offer some understanding to you, if you can accept it. It will be intellectually aquired and hence won't have the same qualitative aspect as KNOWING. And you may not choose to believe me for all sorts of reasons. I will take the chance on casting pearls before swine which does no good for the swine, as the swine merely eat them and attempt to turn them into shit..

What is a fairer position than everyone knowing?

Everybody does know; to their own conscious or unconscious self-imposed limits of knowing and understanding. The secret keeps itself. Everybody who refuses to KNOW helps keep the secret, from themselves. KNOWING can't be imposed on somebody. They have to be willing to accept it. The system has it's own "qualifying" routines. Nobody is keeping it from you. They couldn't possibly. Of course there are a lot of red herring writings written by those who pretend to KNOW. Then there are all the misunderstandings and the difficulty of putting the unspeakable into words. Everybody has the same divine fractal containing all and everything as their basis and the same potential for knowing. However, the self-designed self-realized decoder-ring of the divine that we each are is what varies. People design themselves so as to block out all the things they don't want to know. Of course since that is done on whole sections trying to block out one tiny little thing results in whole cascades of knowing and understanding being blocked.

We each "earn" our access to information by making it possible for ourselves to see the information previously ignored as "noise" by removing our blocks to it and being willing to decode it, to understand it. Achieving each level gives us the "platform" to go for the next level.

As a description that is one of many possible. The procedure itself is really quite simple and is repeated over and over with systematic changes. It too traces out a fractal.

Basically all you have to do is have somebody who knows, and finding such is the first task, how to show you, and be "qualified" to receive "Computer - Start Purification Program". Before long there is no good way to stop program.

None of this is new though it has been said differently. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened. There is no turning back.
Or one might simply call it Alchemical Shaktipat, unspoken teachings, catalysed or whatever.

One thing you need to be aware of is that it will cost you all of your fondest fantasies and dreams and worst fears and nightmares and favorite beliefs. That is a small part of the cost of KNOWING.

guthrie
03-15-2012, 04:59 PM
For example, the very first person ever to achieve the stone, he cannot have possibly known what he was looking for because he'd never experienced the stone or heard of it or knew what it did. Therefore I would assume that the very first person who made it found it by accident - he must have done.

You have never heard of divine inspiration?



Seems far too complex for early sages to have their teeth into whether its Abraham the Jew, Bacon or Flamel, there's something not right about it all. I therefore suspect that it is very simple and its all a red herring to keep us away from the truth. Just my humble opinion folks.
Alchemy dates back to Egypt at least two thousand years ago, based to some extent upon the last thousand and more years of chemical etc knowledge. This can lead to all sorts of complexities.

nav2010
03-17-2012, 09:32 AM
Forgive my regressing if it appears that way but I was away from computers for a few days.
Nav, IF anyone has discovered the stone throughout history, we don't have any record of them
telling everybody. Why? Isn't there something non-scientific about a person who doesn't
know the secrets of nature or alchemy deciding that they should know them, that everyone
should? You don't see any near-sightedness in that?
And when does nature care about people? When is it fair?
You don't see that knowledge "belongs" in a mind that earned it?
What is realistic about giving people knowledge that they couldn't attain themselves?
Wisdom knows what people do with such "gifts". How can they not abuse them when
their mind and soul were not naturally prepared for them through their own striving?

Haven't you ever been in a relationship and tried to change/enlighten the other person?
Knowledge doesn't work that way - haven't you seen it? People change when life has
shown them the necessity for change, not when some person shares or tries to enforce
their knowledge on them - that knowledge is second-hand for them, not wisdom, not
founded on life experience aligned with mind and soul. Wise people know, without any
selfishness, what value it is to sow seed on barren fields. Alchemists know not to sow
their golden seed in a water or earth that is not homogenous to it. THAT is nature.
THAT is realistic.
OK, then when electricity was discovered:
When the steam engine was discovered:
When the the petrol engine was discovered:
When Penecillin was discovered:
When everything was discovered, each respective scientist in the field should have kept it to themselves or an elite few should they?....and the rest of us live in our straw huts with our caveman clubs?

nav2010
03-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Hi Solomon,

I included your quote here because it was worth saying again. I agree most thoroughly


Hi Nav,

You could call God nature or you could call Nature God, either way I doubt very much that nature intended for a select few to know her ways. What is a fairer position than everyone knowing? There isn't one unless you were born to be selfish.

You are kidding us, right? Pulling Solomon's leg until it comes off leaving a ragged bleeding stump? Since you are not known for your sense of humour, at least as far as I've seen, on the off chance that you are serious here, perhaps I can attempt to offer some understanding to you, if you can accept it. It will be intellectually aquired and hence won't have the same qualitative aspect as KNOWING. And you may not choose to believe me for all sorts of reasons. I will take the chance on casting pearls before swine which does no good for the swine, as the swine merely eat them and attempt to turn them into shit..

What is a fairer position than everyone knowing?

Everybody does know; to their own conscious or unconscious self-imposed limits of knowing and understanding. The secret keeps itself. Everybody who refuses to KNOW helps keep the secret, from themselves. KNOWING can't be imposed on somebody. They have to be willing to accept it. The system has it's own "qualifying" routines. Nobody is keeping it from you. They couldn't possibly. Of course there are a lot of red herring writings written by those who pretend to KNOW. Then there are all the misunderstandings and the difficulty of putting the unspeakable into words. Everybody has the same divine fractal containing all and everything as their basis and the same potential for knowing. However, the self-designed self-realized decoder-ring of the divine that we each are is what varies. People design themselves so as to block out all the things they don't want to know. Of course since that is done on whole sections trying to block out one tiny little thing results in whole cascades of knowing and understanding being blocked.

We each "earn" our access to information by making it possible for ourselves to see the information previously ignored as "noise" by removing our blocks to it and being willing to decode it, to understand it. Achieving each level gives us the "platform" to go for the next level.

As a description that is one of many possible. The procedure itself is really quite simple and is repeated over and over with systematic changes. It too traces out a fractal.

Basically all you have to do is have somebody who knows, and finding such is the first task, how to show you, and be "qualified" to receive "Computer - Start Purification Program". Before long there is no good way to stop program.

None of this is new though it has been said differently. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened. There is no turning back.
Or one might simply call it Alchemical Shaktipat, unspoken teachings, catalysed or whatever.

One thing you need to be aware of is that it will cost you all of your fondest fantasies and dreams and worst fears and nightmares and favorite beliefs. That is a small part of the cost of KNOWING.
Damn, that's the 'wipping my wifes ass with a cat of nine tails, smeared in cream while dressed as a court jester' out the window then.

solomon levi
03-20-2012, 10:25 AM
OK, then when electricity was discovered:
When the steam engine was discovered:
When the the petrol engine was discovered:
When Penecillin was discovered:
When everything was discovered, each respective scientist in the field should have kept it to themselves or an elite few should they?....and the rest of us live in our straw huts with our caveman clubs?

I'm not saying what anyone should or shouldn't do.
I'm saying what we can observe.
And what I observe is that we still live in our prisons, or straw huts.
It only appears we don't because of these technologies.
We're still enslaved, if you will, because we do not, as individuals, know how to
generate electricity, or build steam engines, or petrol engines, or penecillin...
These discoveries by geniuses didn't make the rest of us geniuses.
It makes us dependant. This is what can be observed by anyone who looks.
The few/elite have the power because of this. Sharing didn't change that.
But if everyone could make their own electricity, for example, who would rule?
We'd be sovereigns. So that only argues my point further from my perspective.
Sharing these inventions hasn't made us free, but dependant and thus easily manipulated
and controlled - the opposite of wisdom.