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View Full Version : Is it Possible to Ferment / Putrefy TOO much?



Moshe
03-18-2012, 06:11 PM
Hi there,

I am wondering, in particular, if one can putrefy matter too far, for too long, and lose something or ruin something in the process...

for instance, urine.
I am now fermenting some urine. It smells rather... um... ripe.
I imagine an alchemical month outta be nice, but what if, say, I left for a year, and came back...
would it be too far gone?

with animal substances, they can really get out of control...
imagine an animal body, or blood - after a while, there won't be anything left but fungus and other critters.

what about with minerals?
Can we go too far in fermenting / putrefying?

vega33
03-20-2012, 05:09 AM
Hi Moshe

This is a really good topic, I hope we'll see some other replies here. I've made quite a bit of study during my 13 odd years of involvement with the science, so I'll present my view below.

The Golden Chain of Homer makes it very clear what the cause of putrefaction (aka fermentation) is, and is very much in line with the Hermetic doctrine. Specifically, all modifications of matter are due to the implanted spirit (this being a sealed vibration or life), usually stimulated by an external influence (such as the air, or sunlight, etc). Alchemy is called the Art of Music, and this analogy of the stimulation of matter by an external force is most graphically represented by the image of the lyre or other wind/stringed instruments.

So how does this relate to putrefaction? Well, there are different types of putrefaction or fermentation, which all depends on the ferment. In the case you mentioned of animal products fungus, bacteria and worms etc arise either from internal sources (eg a seed matter such as the detritus of a dead cell) or external (such as bacteria in the air, or spores carried on the wind). In the absence of the incubation of the host spirit (the self reinforcing musical dynamism that is most easily seen for instance in the hearts electromagnetic field), the matter is oriented towards a new purpose. Whether a new and living body will be formed depends on the nature of the further incubation given to it, either by heat or other enegetic sources such as music/sound, light, EM and so on. Musical principles such as entrainment can be used to bring a matter in line with purpose. This is why the masters stress that the heat must be constant, tempered/even, etc - with wide fluctuations no equilibrium or final state will be capable of being generated, whether an animal stone or a mineral one.

So in answer to the question of putrefying too much, it depends really on your aim... if it is producing a matter fit for generating phosphorous or ammonium salts from etc, perhaps there is such a thing. The real question is of course what do you hope to acheive via putrefaction, and what are the steps involved.

As a side note, it would be an interesting jaunt to compare NMR data with the frequencies produced in the earth's crust (eg Schumann and other resonances). It could come up with some interesting data about gold and other metals and their generation

zoas23
03-20-2012, 06:07 AM
So in answer to the question of putrefying too much, it depends really on your aim...

I was mostly thinking the same thing.

I know a person that has the hobby of growing a specific type of mushrooms... it is a process of putrefaction, but he needs to take a lot of precautions because bacteria can kill the mushrooms he grows. In a similar way, a wine is the result of a fermentation, but if it is done in a bad way, then it won't taste good.

Moshe
03-20-2012, 02:20 PM
Great answers Vega and Zoas. Thanks a lot.
I understand the "it depends" response.
We have to know what we want and to monitor for it.
Whereas someone trying to make good wine wouldn't like to get any vinegar in the wine (which would be overly fermented, or fermented improperly)
another, perhaps a philosopher, would be happy having a good quantity of vinegar in the wine.

Thanks.

True Initiate
03-20-2012, 04:58 PM
The Golden Chain of Homer makes it very clear what the cause of putrefaction (aka fermentation) is, and is very much in line with the Hermetic doctrine. Specifically, all modifications of matter are due to the implanted spirit (this being a sealed vibration or life), usually stimulated by an external influence (such as the air, or sunlight, etc).

Although the Golden Chain is one of my favourite books this Theory about the cause of fermentation and spontaneous generation have been disproven by Lous Pasteur.

In his triumphal lecture at the Sorbonne in 1864, Pasteur said "Never will the doctrine of spontaneous generation recover from the mortal blow struck by this simple experiment" (referring to his swan-neck flask experiment wherein he proved fermenting micro-organisms would not form in a flask containing fermentable juice until an entry path was created for them).

Downfall of Spontaneous Generation
Method
Broth in flask with swan neck, fresh air could get inside but not particles from the air
Heating
Results
Heated broth in the open flask did not spoil
Contact with particles stopped in the neck led to quick spoilage
Conclusion
Spontaneous does not occur, cells can only come from cells
Criticism
What could I say?
http://img268.imagevenue.com/loc138/th_262382774_0_122_138lo.jpg (http://img268.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=262382774_0_122_138lo.jpg)

(a) Sterilizing the contents of the flask.

http://img297.imagevenue.com/loc420/th_262649282_1_122_420lo.jpg (http://img297.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=262649282_1_122_420lo.jpg)

(b) If the flask remained upright, no microbial growth occurred.

http://img202.imagevenue.com/loc121/th_262535236_2_122_121lo.jpg (http://img202.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=262535236_2_122_121lo.jpg)

(c) If microorganisms trapped in the neck reached the sterile liquid, microbial growth ensued.

Now if the implanted Spirit is the cause of putrefaction then why it refuses to work in a swan flask? The truth is the old guys had no idea about bacteries so they thought it must be some Spiritus Mundi involved! This is gone so far that there are some French guys today who are measuring how alchemical your Path is by the percentage of Spiritus Mundi used!

Aristotle was great promoter of spontaneous generation and his great authority led almost all Philosphers astray for two millenia...

True Initiate
03-20-2012, 07:22 PM
Hi there,

I am wondering, in particular, if one can putrefy matter too far, for too long, and lose something or ruin something in the process...

for instance, urine.
I am now fermenting some urine. It smells rather... um... ripe.
I imagine an alchemical month outta be nice, but what if, say, I left for a year, and came back...
would it be too far gone?


The Wine gets better with age but not every type of Wine. It all depends how the subject is treated...

Salazius
03-20-2012, 07:45 PM
Now if the implanted Spirit is the cause of putrefaction then why it refuses to work in a swan flask? The truth is the old guys had no idea about bacteries so they thought it must be some Spiritus Mundi involved! This is gone so far that there are some French guys today who are measuring how alchemical your Path is by the percentage of Spiritus Mundi used!

Aristotle was great promoter of spontaneous generation and his great authority led almost all Philosphers astray for two millenia...

You speak like a true puffer ! :)

You never manifested Spiritus Mundi, so of course, you believe only what you can see, it's normal ...

True Initiate
03-20-2012, 08:22 PM
Well then, are you stating that Spiritus Mundi is the cause of putrefaction/fermentation?

vega33
03-21-2012, 02:43 AM
You speak like a true puffer ! :)

You never manifested Spiritus Mundi, so of course, you believe only what you can see, it's normal ...

Well said Salazius.

@TP: your hero Pasteur stole much of his work from his colleague Bechamp, and totally ignored Bechamp's interpretation of his own results (which recognized the role of microzyma in the generation of disease). Never mind, even if we ignore the fallacious germ theory, the crystalline RNA of a virus once extracted from its host body will not reproduce - it needs the incubation. And my post was not relating to what the moderns call putrefaction, but the old idea, which assumes a much wider scope than mere microbial stuff.

You can believe what you want, but I have acheived results with my understanding of the hermetic doctrine that could not be explained by traditional science. Have you?

Salazius
03-21-2012, 10:13 AM
True Puffer,

There is a big difference between vulgar putrefaction and philosophical putrefaction !
The first one, you described it very well.
But SM can putrefy a sterile matter. It will not act in a chemical way, but directly manipulate the Principles in the matter. So the release of gases etc is of course different.

There is only an analogy between the two process, but no correlation.

So no, it's not SM that causes normal putrefaction. SM is not at all enough present in order to act in such a way. The ratio is maybe of 0.000000001%, a phi putrefaction asks far far more Spiritus (and I can't say a %age unfortunately) !

I hope it's now clear.

Salazius

Salazius
03-21-2012, 10:24 AM
This said Moshe,

In normal Putrefaction or Phi one, no one can IMO go too far in putrefying a substance.

A friend worked with a 7 years old urine, and said there is no difference with a one year putrefied so ...

:)

vega33
03-22-2012, 05:48 AM
True Puffer,

There is a big difference between vulgar putrefaction and philosophical putrefaction !
The first one, you described it very well.
But SM can putrefy a sterile matter. It will not act in a chemical way, but directly manipulate the Principles in the matter. So the release of gases etc is of course different.

There is only an analogy between the two process, but no correlation.

So no, it's not SM that causes normal putrefaction. SM is not at all enough present in order to act in such a way. The ratio is maybe of 0.000000001%, a phi putrefaction asks far far more Spiritus (and I can't say a %age unfortunately) !

I hope it's now clear.

Salazius

Salazius,

Its been my experience (I expect your own experience of S.'.M.'. is similar) that one cannot remove the concept of the S.'.M.'. even from such circumstances where bacterial or cell growth is observed; in fact, the very presence of cell growth and structure, assimilation and life guarantees the fact that S.'.M.'. is present.

Ironically, William Butler Yeats may have understood it well:

The "spiritus mundi" (literally "spirit of the world") is a reference to Yeats' belief that each human mind is linked to a single vast intelligence, and that this intelligence causes certain universal symbols to appear in individual minds.

The idea is that this spirit is intelligent, and is the only thing that causes change in things.


That Light, He said, am I, thy God, Mind, prior to Moist Nature which appeared from Darkness; the Light-Word (Logos) [that appeared] from Mind is Son of God.

The so called Light-Word is the Mercurial Principle, linking Heaven and Earth, and is that thing known as Spiritus Mundi. It is the one of which it is said, that it can accomplish the entire work, with the help of Mind (the Artisan). This principle operates in viruses when they are living, but it needs to be transmitted to them because their RNA is without movement unless bathed in the host medium, so that the Logos encoded within it can affect its environment. The RNA is the salt (body, fixed and encoding form); the mercury in which the light word is dissolved is the plasmic medium, the sulphur the driving intelligence which communicates this latent heat and light to its environment by means of fuel. (This is a simplified explanation)

Now in the philosophical putrefaction, where Mary squeezes the palm tree and out comes water, this involves the deliberate creation of a discord through the particles drawing closer together, to cause disaggregation. This occurs in the crust after a different manner. But I should leave it at that.

Seth-Ra
03-22-2012, 07:00 AM
The majority of my work is biological, and as i told a friend of mine last week: Nothing is beyond repair. Others would cast such horrid matters out, but they are not truly horrid, only different, different polarities and such. Precaution should be taken with some animal matters, as well as plant, as not all life-polarities are good for yours (i believe a chinese alchemist accidentally made the black death... personal opinion) but it nevertheless can be used and rectified.
Keep killing the new life, and letting it change - so long as it exists, its not really dead, only different. Just dont let principles escape - such as the Spirit or essence, when separating it from the body. Other than that, no, you cannot "over-do" its death and rebirth (fermentation). :)

Beware prolonging your own inward fermentation though, especially with animal matters. There are other threads where this is discussed, and the "Dark Night of the Soul" (which can span longer than a night) is not to be taken lightly when using your own self as subject matter (experience, not opinion for this part). Perhaps another reason why some would cast out/terminate such works, severing the connection as best they can before it ruins them.

Its late as im typing this, so i hope im not sounding more mad/crazy then usual. lol What im trying to say, is while you cannot over ferment the matter in the flask, you may "over cook" your own self with the shadow of the "solve"/breaking down/deconstruction part of it.

Diligently and by the Spirit's guidance, tend to the flask - humbly and respectfully, by the Spirit's mercy/grace, tend to your flask. ;)




~Seth-Ra

Salazius
03-22-2012, 09:10 AM
Hi Vega,

Yes of course, sterile or not SM is still there ... It's just the modalities of expression that differs.