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MarkostheGnostic
04-10-2012, 12:52 AM
Spin-off thread from here http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?57-The-Order-of-The-Golden-Dawn


Since this thread started with the Golden Dawn...
The Swastika is and was used in the Golden Dawn a lot... and it wasn't and isn't related to any fascist or Nazi ideology (indeed, several branches of the Golden Dawn itself have been lead by people who were Jewsish, at least in an "ethincal" way), Such as Moina Bergson Mathers or Israel Regardie.

Also, a lot of Golden Dawn ceremonies involve ant-clockwise circumbalations... without having anything to do with "black magic" or anything sinister ( :P some sort of pun intended! ).

As for the "Left Hand Path" vs. the "Right Hand Path", the Zelator cremony of the Golden Dawn is published and quite easy to find on the internet... it does have a very interesting view about this issue.

I get all that, so take no offense. I'm also aware of the swastika being used in Native American symbology as well. My dissertation addressed a theory of mine that Hitler, being familiar with John Woodruff's description of the Manipura chakra, replete with three swastikas, a portal to the energies by which one can 'destroy the world by fire and rebuild it in one's own image' (The Serpent Power), adopted it based on Aryan metaphysics. I even corresponded with Lama Anagarika Govinda, a German by birth, who left Germany before the Nazi rise to power. Lama Govinda thought that Hitler saw it as a Teutonic symbol. I disagree, but that's my opinion.

I am speaking for my own immediate association, which takes a secondary intellectual appraisal of the use. My aunt escaped Nazi Germany, and she never let anyone forget her contact with the Nazis. And, the black handyman who I grew up around gave me a swastika, red, black and white ashtray that he personally took from a Nazi bunker in Germany (possibly Berlin, but not the Fuherer's bunker which (1) the Russian's took, and (2) Hitler forbade smoking around him). Bottom line: indelible associations.

I have Tibetan prayer flags, vertical flags flanking a meditating Buddha, and some small horizontal flags on the house out back. My yard is on a defunct golf course, which someone bought, who is trying to change zoning, and who wants to build a Sephardic Jewish community center, road, and parking lot all with a 200 foot strip between my backyard and a row of condos. If she succeeds, and manages to get permission to cut down the two old growth trees that screen my yard from that property, I will commence warfare. Now, I am Jewish from birth, so I want to dispel antisemitism from what I'm about to say. If this individual (whom I've met at a neighbor's home) gets her way, effectively destroying what little green space I have, dramatically lowering my property values, and destroying the aesthetics that I bought this property for, I plan on erecting at least two wooden swastikas of the same fence post wood that my 80' fence is built of - maybe two or three feet square, with each arm painted one of the 5 colors of the prayer flags, and a blue square at center. I will affix small prayer flags around it, making them very clearly Tibetan Buddhist religious symbols, protected by the Constitution of the United States. This very wealthy Venezuelan Jew, who has purchased 180 acres of land, and wishes to build "a legacy" to her family, will not appreciate large visible swastikas, Buddhist or otherwise - and my intention will be to force her to plant landscape trees in the 25' easement between my property and the planned parking lot. I'm certain that she will not want her patrons to experience their own knee-jerk rejection to the symbol. Questionably unethical at first thought, it will have no Nazi implications for me, but it may be risky for me nevertheless! I hope things don't come to this, and if does, I hope the consciousness aroused by a benign swastika ('well-being!') does not boomerang on me.

zoas23
04-10-2012, 03:55 AM
I get all that, so take no offense. I'm also aware of the swastika being used in Native American symbology as well. My dissertation addressed a theory of mine that Hitler, being familiar with John Woodruff's description of the Manipura chakra, replete with three swastikas, a portal to the energies by which one can 'destroy the world by fire and rebuild it in one's own image' (The Serpent Power), adopted it based on Aryan metaphysics. I even corresponded with Lama Anagarika Govinda, a German by birth, who left Germany before the Nazi rise to power. Lama Govinda thought that Hitler saw it as a Teutonic symbol. I disagree, but that's my opinion.

The idea od an "Ayan master race" and its relation with the Swastika was mostly invented by Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Lanz_von_Liebenfels )... He became well known for publishing anti-semitic material that praised the Aryan Race and used the Swastika as its main symbol... his "example" was quickly followed by other people...
... And by the time in which Hitler had to think of a logo, the swastika was the obvious one (i.e, it already had, in the German culture, attached the symbolism that Hitler needed: the myth of the superior Aryan race, anti-semitism, etc).

Anyway, there are several symbols which can mean a lot of different things. I.e, the Skull and Bones symbol was also used by Nazism, but then again, it was also used way before by Freemasons and Pirates.
So sometimes it's just a matter of getting which one is the "message" that the symbol is giving you in each context.
(i.e, if you see a skinhead wearing army boots, a stencil of Hitler in his jacket and a swastika tattoo in his forehead, then you probably won't walk in his direction and ask him: "So, do you like Buddhism?").

Just as if you see a guy wearing a skull and bones logo somewhere... it can either mean "pirates", "Nazi", "Master Mason" or "Emo wearing a scary thing that looked cool"... but it is often easy to tell the difference.

As for your plan.... maybe it is a better idea to negotiate.... and find another solution.

MarkostheGnostic
04-10-2012, 11:29 AM
As for your plan.... maybe it is a better idea to negotiate.... and find another solution.

No doubt, sound advice. Nevertheless, big money, and Miami corruption are my opposition. All I can do is provide an annoyance, which doesn't compare to the greed and megalomania I've encountered in the developer who inherited her late husband's wealth. The Buddhist symbols have sat or flapped in my yard for many years. I'd just be adding o them with a symbol that has born many different meanings over time and history. It is a matter of psychological warfare, and it would only be employed should the developer denude the landscape for asphalt and cars on the other side of my fence. Not just me mind you, but a couple of hundred yards of homes along the said golf course. And this, only if the zoning change is denied. So, as you say, the context of the symbol fits the already existing Buddhist motif. Just playing up the annoyingly haunting unconscious associations in others, such as I have experienced myself. Indian civilization IS Aryan, but Aryan doesn't equal Nazi!

Andro
04-10-2012, 04:17 PM
As for your plan.... maybe it is a better idea to negotiate.... and find another solution.

I'm curious why do you think he should find another solution? Do you find anyything 'wrong' with the one Markos came up with?


If you see a skinhead wearing army boots, a stencil of Hitler in his jacket and a swastika tattoo in his forehead, then you probably won't walk in his direction and ask him: "So, do you like Buddhism?"

Why not? Nazi occultists were very much into the Eastern traditions.
______________________________________

Markos:

I fully support your planned strategy (psychological warfare). I've successfully used it myself on a few occasions (on big corporations trying to screw with me), AND I also very much sympathize with your case/cause.

You also have the option of Psychic Warfare, if ALL the rest doesn't work.

If you opt to use it - it's about self-defense, not vengeance... So I recommend to only use the MINIMUM necessary...

zoas23
04-10-2012, 04:51 PM
As for your plan.... maybe it is a better idea to negotiate.... and find another solution.

No doubt, sound advice. Nevertheless, big money, and Miami corruption are my opposition. All I can do is provide an annoyance, which doesn't compare to the greed and megalomania I've encountered in the developer who inherited her late husband's wealth. The Buddhist symbols have sat or flapped in my yard for many years. I'd just be adding o them with a symbol that has born many different meanings over time and history. It is a matter of psychological warfare, and it would only be employed should the developer denude the landscape for asphalt and cars on the other side of my fence. Not just me mind you, but a couple of hundred yards of homes along the said golf course. And this, only if the zoning change is denied. So, as you say, the context of the symbol fits the already existing Buddhist motif. (...)

Yeah, but your plan is to use it to piss them off... and not "expand your buddhist symbolism"... and it will certainly work, thus making your relationship with your neighbors worst instead of better... and probably closing forever the doors to any kind of negotiation.


I'm curious why do you think he should find another solution? Do you find anyything 'wrong' with the one Markos came up with?

I think it's a silly plan that will only give him troubles and I don't think he's a silly person... He's simply mad at these people planning to build in front of his house and quite often none of us has good ideas whilst thinking in anger.



Why not? Nazi occultists were very much into the Eastern traditions.


So what? the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.
I'm sorry that I'm not so open minded about Nazis.

As for Nazi Occulstists... I used to be very close to the grand-daughter of the man who mostly invented "Nazi Occultism", Himmler... both his daughter and his grand-daughter thought that this man was just a psychopath and an idiot... and were mostly ashamed of being related to him.
I mostly think along the same lines... and there's nothing interesting I have to discuss with a Nazi.

I don't think "Nazi Occultism" is in any way more interesting that Michael Aquino dressed as a weird version of Captain Spock and Bela Lugosi and showing his "Nazi knife" pretending to be wise because he has that shit

III
04-10-2012, 07:09 PM
If I recall correctly Hitler mirror reversed the swastika and set it on point for the "dynamics" of it rolling over opposition. Perhaps your plan will cause her to negotiate a little more honestly or perhaps it will get your property torched or bankrupt you with lawyers.

MarkostheGnostic
04-11-2012, 12:04 AM
My goal is not to initiate aggression. I tend to be passive by nature, enjoining Manipura (Manipu-lation) of power motives very very selectively and sparingly. I am not into creating a big karmic footprint in this lifetime. I am not planning on flying a Nazi flag for crying out loud! Hell, I'm Jewish by birth and not a self-hating Jew either. Neither do I want to attract a Jewish Defense League, or vandals to my property.

I will counter the possible destruction of my neighborhood by a greedy and megalomaniacal woman who wants to build a sort of feudal set-up, with huge houses and an equestrian club to cater to her thoroughbred horses, and those of her very wealthy friends who are trying to take their fortunes out of Venezuela. She wants to build a wealthy Jewish ghetto in the middle of middle to lower class neighborhoods, and surround her property with a high grey cement pre-fab fence. The lower and lower priced houses and town homes will be further and further from her domain. Only homeowners who vote in favor of changing the recreational zoning to commercial zoning will be able to use the dog park and green space remaining. All others (like me) would be charged with trespassing. I have met with her in a small group of homeowners with her attorney, and their plans, which indicates that the dog park will be 100 yards to my property's right. I'll get a parking lot and a building, with dumpsters, asphalt, noise, traffic, people, all jammed on the narrow fairway of the golf course, a mere 200' wide. I paid more for this property to be on a green space, which still brings Florida Snowy Egrets, Ibis, and other birds and animals. So, I'm ALREADY on her shit list because I would not sign the petition in favor of her project. Meanwhile, she has helped other neighbors by having her lawyer fight the placement of a 100' Verizon® cell tower at the opposite end of my complex, for their votes. They will have green space, I will have black top.

It's simple. I am a humble home owner. I am an educator. This is all I have. One of the developer's many horses costs more than my home. If she gets permission to cut down the two remaining (from the last two hurricanes) old-growth trees, I will display a religious symbol that got bastardized by Nazi Germany, but which has been around for millennia. I expect that it will annoy her, more perhaps than, say, a simple Carolingian-style Christian cross. Who is going to complain about a simple wooden cross, right? If, however, I decided to soak said cross in lamp oil, and ignite it, then I'm making a completely different statement, and that symbol of self-sacrifice and submission becomes a symbol of hatred and bigotry, KKK fashion. Obviously, just an analogy. A multi-colored swastika, with colors that match my many prayer flags, the swastika itself having prayer flags affixed, and the symbols standing upright with perpendicular angles, NOT positioned to stand upon a 90° angle, nor in colors black, red, and white, is quite another story. AND, I am not doing this yet, and certainly not without trepidation, but the last time the developer sent around a gopher to have me sign the petition, I showed her my back yard, and I told her of my plan. I suspect it may have gotten back to the developer. I hope so. By the time you reach my age, if you've been a fairly righteous individual, you too will declare "I'm as mad as Hell and I'm not going to take it any more," Network style.

This individual may identify with being Jewish, but her god is very clearly wealth, power, and earthly pleasures. I get along fine with the Hasidic synagogue that is set up in a house in my neighborhood. They visit me to blow the shofar at Rosh Hashanah, and wave the Lulav palm at Purim. A few have come into my home, trying to recruit me, and to meet their Rebbe, only to say after visiting my library that "maybe our Rebbe should meet you!" This developer, on the other hand, is truly representative of that mythic "synagogue of Satan" that the New Testament applies to those who are the 'keepers of the tables at the temple.' And I, sitting in Tiphereth, have Gedulah at my left, but also Geburah on my right!" So if this developer decides to f**k with me, I'm am definitely going to f**k with her! Meet the United States Constitution on religious freedom bi-atch!

zoas23
04-11-2012, 11:15 AM
I don't think you are a Nazi....
And I don't think you have a good plan...
You don't need my permission, approval or even making me agree with what you have decided.
If you want my advice, then I'll tell you that it's a terrible idea (from an ethical perspective, but mainly from a practical perspective).
I will simply not applaud this idea, nor I will think it's a good one. I still wish you the best.

III
04-11-2012, 05:49 PM
My goal is not to initiate aggression. I tend to be passive by nature, enjoining Manipura (Manipu-lation) of power motives very very selectively and sparingly. I am not into creating a big karmic footprint in this lifetime. I am not planning on flying a Nazi flag for crying out loud! Hell, I'm Jewish by birth and not a self-hating Jew either. Neither do I want to attract a Jewish Defense League, or vandals to my property.

I will counter the possible destruction of my neighborhood by a greedy and megalomaniacal woman who wants to build a sort of feudal set-up, with huge houses and an equestrian club to cater to her thoroughbred horses, and those of her very wealthy friends who are trying to take their fortunes out of Venezuela. She wants to build a wealthy Jewish ghetto in the middle of middle to lower class neighborhoods, and surround her property with a high grey cement pre-fab fence. The lower and lower priced houses and town homes will be further and further from her domain. Only homeowners who vote in favor of changing the recreational zoning to commercial zoning will be able to use the dog park and green space remaining. All others (like me) would be charged with trespassing. I have met with her in a small group of homeowners with her attorney, and their plans, which indicates that the dog park will be 100 yards to my property's right. I'll get a parking lot and a building, with dumpsters, asphalt, noise, traffic, people, all jammed on the narrow fairway of the golf course, a mere 200' wide. I paid more for this property to be on a green space, which still brings Florida Snowy Egrets, Ibis, and other birds and animals. So, I'm ALREADY on her shit list because I would not sign the petition in favor of her project. Meanwhile, she has helped other neighbors by having her lawyer fight the placement of a 100' Verizon® cell tower at the opposite end of my complex, for their votes. They will have green space, I will have black top.

It's simple. I am a humble home owner. I am an educator. This is all I have. One of the developer's many horses costs more than my home. If she gets permission to cut down the two remaining (from the last two hurricanes) old-growth trees, I will display a religious symbol that got bastardized by Nazi Germany, but which has been around for millennia. I expect that it will annoy her, more perhaps than, say, a simple Carolingian-style Christian cross. Who is going to complain about a simple wooden cross, right? If, however, I decided to soak said cross in lamp oil, and ignite it, then I'm making a completely different statement, and that symbol of self-sacrifice and submission becomes a symbol of hatred and bigotry, KKK fashion. Obviously, just an analogy. A multi-colored swastika, with colors that match my many prayer flags, the swastika itself having prayer flags affixed, and the symbols standing upright with perpendicular angles, NOT positioned to stand upon a 90° angle, nor in colors black, red, and white, is quite another story. AND, I am not doing this yet, and certainly not without trepidation, but the last time the developer sent around a gopher to have me sign the petition, I showed her my back yard, and I told her of my plan. I suspect it may have gotten back to the developer. I hope so. By the time you reach my age, if you've been a fairly righteous individual, you too will declare "I'm as mad as Hell and I'm not going to take it any more," Network style.

This individual may identify with being Jewish, but her god is very clearly wealth, power, and earthly pleasures. I get along fine with the Hasidic synagogue that is set up in a house in my neighborhood. They visit me to blow the shofar at Rosh Hashanah, and wave the Lulav palm at Purim. A few have come into my home, trying to recruit me, and to meet their Rebbe, only to say after visiting my library that "maybe our Rebbe should meet you!" This developer, on the other hand, is truly representative of that mythic "synagogue of Satan" that the New Testament applies to those who are the 'keepers of the tables at the temple.' And I, sitting in Tiphereth, have Gedulah at my left, but also Geburah on my right!" So if this developer decides to f**k with me, I'm am definitely going to f**k with her! Meet the United States Constitution on religious freedom bi-atch!

Hi MarkostheGnostic,

I do understand. I would be terribly annoyed with such a person too. Others I know of with annoyances have done a variety of things. One set up nude statues painted in fully lifelike colors. The neighbors fulminated. Some friends of mine put in a hot tub and swimming pool and started having back yard swim, hot tub and BBQ with lots of sunbathing parties with lots of their nudist friends. A lot of trees and shrubs got planted by the annoying development. Good luck with the battle with the Goliath ego. We got our backyard all ready and suitable for nude usage and then somebody down the street built the biggest highest house on the street with upstairs windows that look over the fences, 10 foot trellis (bean fence) and foliage right down the length of my entire back yard. I planted some chestnuts that will block their view in about 10 years and in the meantime string shade cloth for parties blocking the view into my yard but often just ignore them. The crash it just as the house was finished and the owner has never lived there as he lost his job in Utah. The renters keep moving out. Some people are so easily offended by daytime hot tub and BBQ parties.

MarkostheGnostic
04-11-2012, 09:48 PM
I don't think you are a Nazi....
And I don't think you have a good plan...
You don't need my permission, approval or even making me agree with what you have decided.
If you want my advice, then I'll tell you that it's a terrible idea (from an ethical perspective, but mainly from a practical perspective).
I will simply not applaud this idea, nor I will think it's a good one. I still wish you the best.

I agree to disagree, but by the same logic, every time one sees a Christian cross atop a white peaked church steeple, one thinks Ku Klux Klan. If you read lots on Buddhism, you get accustomed to seeing this symbol on statues of the Buddha itself. One begins to create new associations other than the war footage - a relatively brief historical period in which this symbol (Svasti means 'well-being' in Sanskrit) was adopted in form, but adapted in meaning, by the Third Reich. As a child, my own parents somehow equated the Christian cross with the Nazi swastika, both representing enemies of Jews. When I put a ceramic Buddha in my room, or a picture of Krishna, nothing was said to me. When I hung up a crucifix, the shit hit the fan. I suppose that 'One man's medicine is another man's poison.' I saw the most positive, self-sacrificial meaning, but my parents saw pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, exile, and genocide - all under exactly the same symbol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxb7Y2BW04

zoas23
04-11-2012, 11:21 PM
I agree to disagree, but by the same logic, every time one sees a Christian cross atop a white peaked church steeple, one thinks Ku Klux Klan. If you read lots on Buddhism, you get accustomed to seeing this symbol on statues of the Buddha itself. One begins to create new associations other than the war footage - a relatively brief historical period in which this symbol (Svasti means 'well-being' in Sanskrit) was adopted in form, but adapted in meaning, by the Third Reich. As a child, my own parents somehow equated the Christian cross with the Nazi swastika, both representing enemies of Jews. When I put a ceramic Buddha in my room, or a picture of Krishna, nothing was said to me. When I hung up a crucifix, the shit hit the fan. I suppose that 'One man's medicine is another man's poison.' I saw the most positive, self-sacrificial meaning, but my parents saw pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, exile, and genocide - all under exactly the same symbol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxb7Y2BW04

O.K.... There's no need to explain ME that the Swastika has a historical use that goes back in time way before the Nazis even existed.
I even brought you the Golden Dawn as an example of an Order that usess the Swastica and doesn't relate it to Nazism or racism at all.
There's no need to explain me that the Swastika is still used as a very visible symbol nowadays a lot in Asia because of very different religious reasons, that is, in a place where the culture offers a context in which nobody relates it to Nazism.
We agree 100% about this whole part of the issue.

As for the video and the "Reclaim the Swastika" idea: marvelous. It's a nice idea. I already knew of a few people trying to do such thing, I'm 100% fine with that.

BUT what you are trying to do has little or mostly nothing to do with what I have just mentioned:
You mostly want to use the Swastika to freak out a jewsish group that you don't like and make them think of Nazism.

Or would you consider adding a big sign with an explanation of the historiy of the Swastika and how they should avoid relating it to Nazism as to make them feel good whilst looking at that sign???
Probably not, because what you are doing has little to do with the "reclaim the swastika" idea and you mostly wanna freak out a grou of Jews by making them think of Nazism... and you don't wanna offer a "friendly" message, but something so "horrrible" as to force them to bild something to avoid seeing your house. If you were serius about this "reclaim the swastika" idea, then creating a sign with an explanation would probably be a great idea... but that's not what you want, nor such sign would be useful for your real intentions.

Your library is indeed impressive and so is your knowledge... so don't play the fool and be honest about your intentions: the only reason that makes you want to put that huge swastika there is to use it as a sign that will remind other people of Nazism and using it as a "hate-symbol"... otherwise you would simply decide to put one inside your house and avoind any possible missunderstanding.

If you wanna piss off your neighrors, I'd say that your idea of using the Swastika is, at least, in terrible bad taste... the solution that III found is by far "funnier" and "happier".
(And, LOL... creating a nudist club facing that fence that you hate would be hilarious).

Again.... there's probably 1,000,000 different ideas you can use... with such a wide range of options as talking to all your neighbors and organizing yourselves against that new "club" (a political solution) to creating a "nudist club" (a hilarious solution), I don't see the reason that leads you to find a solution that is so horrible and why you are so stuck with that one.

Awani
04-11-2012, 11:31 PM
Note that the Nazi swastika and the ancient swastika looks different, so depending on which is in use answers the question why it is used. People who can't tell the difference will always end up looking like fools.

Personally I think it is a great idea to use the symbol to annoy a neighbor. If they get upset it is clearly their own problem. I mean every time I walk outside into the city I get annoyed at things I see; billboards, cars, stupid shops, ignorant drones etc... I don't get more angry seeing a Nazi marching down the street than seeing a moron peddle ignorance. Both are equally detestable. When I went to Auschwitz I recall thinking that the famous sign Arbeit macht frei (work makes one free) is still in use across the modern world. A job is issue number one when considering what to do in life for most people, and a symbol of freedom. What an illusion. Very few people work with something they want to work with, and very few have a job that gives them the freedom they want. Mostly work is enslaved freedom. You have a job to pay for the car to get to work... etc.

The Nazi state is still here, in a different form... a more mature and respectable form, but still here... the education system and all other systems are there to shape, form and eradicate any free thinkers and any freedom.

The Nazis are nothing... they are just one of many in a long line of dominator cultures that has plagued the world. The only cure is laughter.

Btw the reason many people enjoy making fun of Jews is because they are the only group no one is allowed to make fun off... boohoo... they don't have copyright on genocide or suffering... I have studied history and contemporary events enough to know that. People in Congo has suffered way more than any concentration camp victim (and yes I have family members who sat in one so it is not like I am ignorant of it). ADL behaves like Nazis when it comes to freedom of speech, how ironic...

Anyone that claim they are chosen by God should be ignored, especially if it is an entire ethnic group (seriously can any sane person take such a claim seriously). But who knows, when the aliens land perhaps we discover that the Jews are the only ones allowed on the ships because they are descendants of Ancient Aliens (and are in fact the people of God). LOL!

This clip says it all (and if you haven't seen it before please watch the whole thing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcvjoWOwnn4

Anyway this thread is getting way off topic (and my own comments might not help to stop the debate, maybe I just put fuel on the fire)... if this Nazi debate is interesting to continue then we can split the thread into two topics.

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
04-12-2012, 01:32 AM
Your point is well taken zoas23, but as dev pointed out, it is their own self-persecutory Shadow that would annoy them, NOT my intention to piss off a Jewish group. Moreover, THIS Jewish group is anything but the Hasidic (pious) group I mentioned. THIS group are as much to be recognized as a religious identity as the KKK is Christian, just because THEY claim that they're a "White fraternal Christian organization." The KKK are as antithetical to Christ as one can be, despite their crosses and symbol of Christ's blood at the center of a Maltese cross. THESE so-called Jews are a cabal of extremely wealthy and hence powerful individuals who simply intend to insert an ungodly density of structures and people on an already overburdened infrastructure. I live 3.2 miles from my job, and it often takes 25 minutes to travel one single length of road. The neighbors are either uninterested because they're transients, or so new to the US that they don't register concern, or, they are divided for and against. This developer has resurveyed her property and discovered that some peoples' patios or yards extended 10-12 feet onto her newly purchased property. She sent in her minions with spray paint to mark peoples' fences or patios with big Xs, telling them to tear down fences or tear up patios which extended a few feet onto HER 180 acres of land! UNLESS, they voted in favor of her zoning change. We all bought our homes many years ago, based on original surveys, and have been paying taxes on that property, if her survey is accurate. She is the developer, and she is a nasty, ruthless, greedy bitch. Oh, but she says that she's Jewish. This ethnic identity can only be what she manifests - entitled, arrogant, vindictive, and greedy. I'm Jewish, and this is not the phenomenology of what Jewishness means to me. I do not recognize her Jewish identity, based on what she does, any more than I recognize a Klansman as being a Christian. BOTH are wolves in sheep's clothing IMO.

Awani
04-12-2012, 01:40 AM
BOTH are wolves in sheep's clothing IMO.

Or well dressed fools... ;)

:cool:

zoas23
04-12-2012, 03:23 AM
The Nazi state is still here, in a different form... a more mature and respectable form, but still here... the education system and all other systems are there to shape, form and eradicate any free thinkers and any freedom.

In my humble opinion, you have no idea of what you are talking about.
Having lived under both systems (actually not "nazism", but a fascist military dictatorship), I'd say there is a HUGE difference.

I like your anarcho views... I even share them... but such thing doesn't make me blind: dictatorships and democracies are not the same thing. In any average democracy you can publish something like: "the president is an asshole" in a newspaper... whilst in a dictatorship writing something like: "I am not completely sure if I support with enthusiasm every detail of every idea that the leader has" leads you to an immediate death. I have lived under a regime like that the whole of my childhood, it's hell itself.

Are our democracies abusive? Sure, I agree with you. Are they just like fascism? hell, no...


Btw the reason many people enjoy making fun of Jews is because they are the only group no one is allowed to make fun off... boohoo... they don't have copyright on genocide or suffering... I have studied history and contemporary events enough to know that. People in Congo has suffered way more than any concentration camp victim (and yes I have family members who sat in one so it is not like I am ignorant of it). ADL behaves like Nazis when it comes to freedom of speech, how ironic...

Maybe the point is not being "inclusive" and add the Jews to the ethnic or religious groups which are acceptable to mock, despise or hate... but do our best to get rid of racism, xenophobia, religious intolerance, sexism and so on.



Anyone that claim they are chosen by God should be ignored, especially if it is an entire ethnic group (seriously can any sane person take such a claim seriously). But who knows, when the aliens land perhaps we discover that the Jews are the only ones allowed on the ships because they are descendants of Ancient Aliens (and are in fact the people of God). LOL!


Since I know you embrace a Gnostic point of view... and so do I... and obviously Markos does too, then I'll simply say that I still haven't seen any Religion that isn't like that in its "mainstream" version. In its non-Gnostic version.
I mean, a Religion that doesn't believe that they "own" God and that only their followers are doing what God wants, whilst all the rest of mankind belongs to Hell. This is true for the Jews, the Muslims and the Christians.
The belief that your Religion "owns" God is the #1 sign of a Demiurgic Religion.
Sadly, a few Religions that have a beautiful Gnostic side have also fallen into this Demiurgic trap (the Parsis, the Yezidis, etc).

It is beautiful to oppose to this Demiurgic ideal... though using "Nazi imaginery" to do it is certainly not the way (again, I don't think Markos is a Nazi at all... I think he's a wise person, a true Gnostic, the owner of a jaw dropping library... and an amazing artist and human being... I simply think he has a terrible solution for this problem he's now facing and that there's 1,000,000 better solutions!)



Anyway this thread is getting way off topic (and my own comments might not help to stop the debate, maybe I just put fuel on the fire)... if this Nazi debate is interesting to continue then we can split the thread into two topics.


LOL... this one isn't a "heated" debate, just a talk between friends. I have a lot of respect for Markos. LOL... I often come very strong against people I appreciate (I also did it with Solomon in another thread)... If I don't open my mouth when I think different, it often means that I don't care about the person who writes!

What I don't like about forums is that they have "threads"... and the Deleuzian rhyzome is beautiful... !!! Isn't everything related to everything? I like it when a conversation flows.
Anyway, do as you wish! :)

MarkostheGnostic
04-12-2012, 11:34 AM
I simply think he has a terrible solution for this problem he's now facing and that there's 1,000,000 better solutions!)

Offer me 3 alternatives. I do not think that she would build a parking lot around a huge old tree, for example. She'd care more about branches and bird shit falling on her clients' status automobiles than on an old living entity (Ent!) who cools, cleans, and beautifies the atmosphere in its vicinity, or care about the animals and humans who derive pleasure from its proximity. I, for one, often lie on the sofa I am typing on, and gaze out the window into its branches before drifting off for a nap. Her's is a very constricted 'love,' extending mainly to herself, her family (and her horses) who are little more than extensions of her narcissistic self-love, from what I can discern from her plan for "a legacy." Then, there are those privileged people, who also own horses. Her 'love' extends to them and to their horses. The 'peasants' who oppose her have already been threatened as encroaching on her property, or as potential trespassers on her property. No offense to you, but we don't need a foreigner to impose their brand of aristocracy on low to middle income Americans, assuming an attitude of ethnocentric superiority. I am paid by the taxes of my neighbors, and I have served two generations of them - their children, and now their children's children, with all diligence. Now some spoiled bully from Venezuela buys up prime property during an economic disaster, and is attempting to exploit it in a big way, adversely effecting myself and everyone around a large area.

You're correct, I am no Nazi or any other kind of fascist insect or xenophobe. But IMHO, a Jewish bigot is the worst kind of bigot, and the ethnocentricity is so profound in this instance that it may require a defensive move at the only weakness that I can surmise - a psychological one. I am on the defensive here, like little Israel in the middle of Arabic and Muslim nations. Nuclear weapons are deemed unethical too, but if a major assault was made on Israel, ethical or not, I have little doubt that they would retaliate in an 'unethical' nuclear way. I am minding my tiny plot of land, and huge earth-moving machines would blanket our homes and pools with dirt. The landscape would be leveled, destroying the lower-level runoff for tropical rains, forcing many of us to buy flood insurance, and possibly bringing about severe damage to our homes and pools. I could go on, but this is tedious. I'll simply have to wait and see, meanwhile, no action is being taken.

Awani
04-12-2012, 11:43 AM
First of all I never thought this thread became "heated"... I just meant it was going off topic. I hear what you are saying in regards to everything related to everything else, but trust me when I say if we don't have some form of order this forum would be less usable and very chaotic. I could be wrong, but the system has worked so far...


In my humble opinion, you have no idea of what you are talking about... Are our democracies abusive? Sure, I agree with you. Are they just like fascism? hell, no...

How would you know that? I come from a communist state, sure it is not Saudi Arabia I know that... but to compensate I have travelled and spent time in many "real" dictatorship states. I know what I am talking about. Democracy is not freedom and it is not the first time someone has told me that it is NOT fascism, but answer me this: if something is mandatory and there is no choice is it a) freedom or b) fascism?

As for religion I agree... that is why I think all religions are silly. I do like the "religion" of indigenous people because often, but not always, it is very pantheistic, meaning that nature and God is one and the same. I'm kind of comfortable with that.

The Swastika is present on many buildings in Scandinavia and on several seals, but many have been changed or hacked away since the Nazis arrived. Btw in Sweden we have Nazi's in the government. People actually still vote for them. It is so funny that the media/people are so angry that they are elected, yet this is what democracy is all about (on paper). Even citizens of a country that has had more democracy than any other country in the history of the world can't still get used to the concept.

I still advocate laughter... if leaders, fascists, nazis etc are taken seriously we grant them power.

:cool:

zoas23
04-14-2012, 04:45 AM
First of all I never thought this thread became "heated"... I just meant it was going off topic. I hear what you are saying in regards to everything related to everything else, but trust me when I say if we don't have some form of order this forum would be less usable and very chaotic. I could be wrong, but the system has worked so far...

I love it when conversations flow... I know the forum would be a mess. It was just a comment, not a suggestion.


How would you know that? I come from a communist state, sure it is not Saudi Arabia I know that... but to compensate I have travelled and spent time in many "real" dictatorship states. I know what I am talking about. Democracy is not freedom and it is not the first time someone has told me that it is NOT fascism, but answer me this: if something is mandatory and there is no choice is it a) freedom or b) fascism?

I know a great book that it's worth reading: "Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder" by Lenin... and, no, I'm not a Leninist!.Though his book is amazing.
His book is mostly aimed at the German Communists who could only see black and white... and mostly wanted Communism or Nothing. This is what Lenin called an "infantile disorder" or "infantile illness".
The problem he saw is that the German Communists refused to colaborate with the Social Democrats because Social Democracy wasn't their Utopia. This created some paradoxes that Lenin found absurd: i.e, the Communist were against the laws of the Social Democrats that wanted to increase the salary of the workers.
Why? Because they considered that these laws were still unfair, so "improving" something that was unfair didn't make sense: Communism or Nothing was what they wanted. So Lenin was mostly asking them: "How is it possible that you don't want better salaries for the workers???? Yes, we are against the Capitalist system and the Social Democrats aren't... and yet it ain't hard to figure out that better salaries makes the lives of the workers better, even if that's not the whole of your Utopia".

I won't try to sell you the idea that Democracy is Heaven on Earth, because I don't buy that idea either... and I think that our political utopias are very similar. I visited your website, saw the videos of your experimental trash punk death noise band there, which I really really really liked a lot (I really did). You would be dead in no time if you lived right now under a true dictatorship, just for having such a great band. Though if you decided not to play like that, then you could spend your time reading books, of course, you would only be able to read the books authorized by the government; listen to the music allowed by the government, etc... and take care of never saying anything against the government to anyone unless you trust this person with your own life.

I take it for granted that democracy is by far closer to your own Utopia than dictatorship.


I simply think he has a terrible solution for this problem he's now facing and that there's 1,000,000 better solutions!)

Offer me 3 alternatives. I do not think that she would build a parking lot around a huge old tree

I don't think your Swastike is a solution that has any reasonable chance of improving your situation and it has 1,000,000 chances of making your situation worst. I get the point that you are angry, I am assuming that you are thinking in anger.

In my humble opinion, a political solution is still the best one: i.e, write what you really think and send a copy to all your neighbors. Organize a reasonable action, find a way to organize a meeting, maybe a protest. Write to all the left-winged journalists of your area, contact the journalists, etc. Place a "protest" sign in front of your house explaining the situation, etc.I can't figure out why you are so stuck with the Swastika... anyway, that's my opinion and you don't need to convince me (to be honest, the one that is trying to be persuasive and convince you it's me... ).


You're correct, I am no Nazi or any other kind of fascist insect or xenophobe. But IMHO, a Jewish bigot is the worst kind of bigot, and the ethnocentricity is so profound in this instance that it may require a defensive move at the only weakness that I can surmise - a psychological one. I am on the defensive here, like little Israel in the middle of Arabic and Muslim nations.

Yes, there's no need to convince me that you aren't a Nazi, I already know it.

Israel... a country that can find peace in just one second: "separation of Church and State"... if all parties decided to make that move, their troubles would be over, their wars would be over. Until that day, they will be living in an eternal state of warfare.

MarkostheGnostic
04-14-2012, 05:35 AM
My Martial, Manipura chakra is fairly undeveloped in me. The Ares archetype is fairly latent. As I have written elsewhere on the net (reminded as I searched and found a Shroomery article, but I cannot retrieve it), the Manipura according to Sir Arthur Avalon/John Woodfuff in The Serpent Power, has three swastikas lying between the lines of the triangle and the pericarp of the 10 petalled lotus. I will intentionally draw upon this 'Pre-personal' Power, in a very passive way like the flaming sword which merely barred return to the Garden of Eden from our Primal Parents. It will only be erected as the result of an attack on the Plant Kingdom with the Mineral Kingdom, as petroleum-based asphalt smothers the earth and its greenness. It will not be a symbol of historical significance, it will be a vehicle of Pre-personal Power. Not hate, power, force, dynamism. And yes, it will effect the subtle bodies of my enemies. Like the king with great wealth and herds of animals who stole the single kid of a humble man - as Nathan the Prophet taught King David about his treachery when he, with his harems of women stole Bathsheba from Uriah the Hittite, and sent him to die on the front lines. Nathan is my middle name, and I will draw upon the wrath of God, as symbolized by the ram, by fire, by the broken cross, if need be. This tiny oasis that I call home supports my lifestyle of recuperation from working with the children who live around me. My apparent inflation is nothing compared to the arrogance I defy.

BTW, I have joined with many neighbors on several occasions to protest in a public forum, before our local board of county commissioners. Many of my neighbors who are not facing an asphalt monstrosity have taken sides with the developer, for which she has shared her lawyers to help defeat a cell tower in their back yard. I am alone among transient, uninterested Haitian immigrants. Sorry if this plan strikes you as unsavory. I would be fined if I created a huge middle finger. This is harmonious with the materials already in place. It will be Buddhist through-and-through. If it reminds the opposition of a similar symbol, and causes irritation, she'll just have to replant landscaping trees. And, with all due respect, I do not wish to continue debating this. It is all moot at THIS point. Meanwhile, I have planted and cultivated a whole line of flowering trees and plants to block line-of-sight to the defunct golf course. If she leaves the trees alone, no action will be taken.

http://i44.tinypic.com/28wjlfr.gif

Awani
04-14-2012, 05:20 PM
I take it for granted that democracy is by far closer to your own Utopia than dictatorship.

I understand your argument but I still don't agree. Yes a dictatorship is more extreme, more dangerous... but pain and death doesn't worry me... only the lack of freedom. Any society where the individual is under the rule of someone else is slavery. There is no Utopian system anywhere in the world at this moment in time. Perhaps there never will be.

For me it is very simple, as long as you don't hurt anyone else you should be allowed to do whatever you want. If you cannot it is fascism/slavery etc. It doesn't matter to me if the punishment is death or a fine, or a slap on the wrist. NO ONE has the right to control anyones existence! I don't have a problem being boss over an employee because the employee is working under me by his/her choice... this is ok... but there is so much in society that is not by choice. Either you do it or you are fined, imprisoned or executed (depending on where you live).

A democracy is the lesser of two evils and I would always choose to live in a democracy... this is without a doubt, but I would never defend it. Democracy, IMO, is totalitarianism in disguise.

Glad you liked FOODEATER, it takes a certain kind of brain to appreciate it. LOL!

Did you say you lived in a dictatorship? If so can you say in which one?

:cool:

zoas23
04-15-2012, 12:15 AM
Glad you liked FOODEATER, it takes a certain kind of brain to appreciate it. LOL!

Did you say you lived in a dictatorship? If so can you say in which one?

I really like anarcho-punk and I really like noise... I like bands that blend genres and create something new.

I was born in Argentina and it has always been my country of residence.
I was born in 1976 and there was a military coup that created a dictatorship that lasted till 1983.
So I lived in a dictatorship since birth till I was 6.
You may thin that I was so young that I didn't really experience what it's really like, but that's not the case... I perfectly remember it and even being so young I was 100% aware of the situation.

Short story: my parents were VERY close to the Guerrilla, even if they never touched a weapon in their lives. I was taught by them not to EVER say a word about the government to anyone because doing it only once could lead to the death of all of us (a weird thing to teach a kid, but it was true).
I also remember that in 1982 a group of government agents got into the house of my best friend, his name was Marcos (funny, just like Markos' name), his father was executed by a firing squad right there at his own house, in front of his family. This wasn't an usual proedure, since the "usual" procedure was kidnapping people, taking them to concentration camps and then killing them there after torture + confession.
My friend, Marcos, wasn't allowed by his mother to explain at school that his father had been shot by a firing squad, I wasn't alloed to talk about it either. He was allowed to talk about it with me when we were alone.
A lot of the friends of my parents that visited us often got kidnapped and nothing was known about them, though we knew that they had been executed. I wasn't allowed to mention the fact that some people was missing.
I knew mostly the whole of what was going on... my parents considered that it was important to explain me what is freedom and why we were not living in freedom. I like the fact that they gave me those explanations.
I also have memories of my parents taking most of their books away and going to a forest to bury them.
I also have memories of when the war with England started in 1982... and the new laws that made it illegal to listen to music sung in English!
The whole thing was very much like a scary nightmare for a kid. I was really glad when democracy arrived and my parents told me that I was allowed to speak about whatever I wanted with anyone I wanted. It actually felt a lot like... freedom... and joy.

I also have some "funny" memories: the government insisted so much with Nationalism and Religion, specially during the Falkland's war (this whole idea that God was going to make Argentina defeat the British army) that during my very first years I was convinced that God was Argentinean... and that Argentina had to be probably the most important country on Earth, because it was the country in which God lived and he was very famous all over the world.
It was quite confusing when my parents told me that I was getting confused and that God wasn't Argentinean. LOL... it was quite a shocking revelation!

I am truly glad of not living in a dictatorship.


And, with all due respect, I do not wish to continue debating this.

It does make sense... we have arrived to a point in which we are both repeating the same arguments... so there's probably not much more to add. It's O.K. for me too.

Awani
04-15-2012, 12:38 AM
Ok nice, I really enjoyed Buenos Aires when I was there a few years ago. Argentina is a funky country I think. Being vegetarian I did find probably the best meal I have ever had. It was a restaurant where you went to the Chefs home to eat. http://www.diegofelix.com (also very cheap, but don't know if it is cheap for Argentinians, Swedish currency is pretty strong).

Thanks for the story, always interesting to hear things like this. Your God story reminds me of the Bible Theme Park a bit outside Buenos Aires. I went there and had a great time... but I had to keep my laughter on the inside. It was truly the most surreal place I have ever been too I think. He he.

I originate from Sweden (together with the rest of Scandinavia the most free area in the whole world), yet it is truly an illusion. The only reason it is so free and peaceful is because of very bad dealings under the table with dictatorships. Democracy creates a sort of veil... a sort of contentment that disgusts me. In a way a dictatorship is easier. The bad guys are easier to spot. Revolution comes easy in a dictatorship, I mean there is a common enemy . But in a "free" country it does not. The whole world is connected. How can one country be free when others are not? Trade, politics etc cross borders all the time... oh well...

I do advocate democracy for Saudi Arabia and the like... first a country needs to crawl before they can walk... but countries that have enjoyed democracy for many years well they should take it to the next level.

I will go back to Argentina one day... I want to see more than just the Capital, but when I was there I was kind of pressed for time.

Btw are there still Nazi's in Argentina hiding? Or is that just an urban myth?

:cool:

zoas23
04-16-2012, 03:44 AM
Ok nice, I really enjoyed Buenos Aires when I was there a few years ago. Argentina is a funky country I think. Being vegetarian I did find probably the best meal I have ever had. It was a restaurant where you went to the Chefs home to eat. http://www.diegofelix.com (also very cheap, but don't know if it is cheap for Argentinians, Swedish currency is pretty strong).

Ah! Nice to hear you've been here!!! :)
I'm really in love with this place... what I LOVE the most is that we have an absolute lack of an "Argentinean tradition". So the culture here is really cosmopolitan, mostly because we have no other choice... and also the cultural freedom that the fact that we can't stand on the shoulders of a local tradition gives us.
LOL... I didn't know that restaurant! But the cost of the food there for one person is what I often pay for 3 persons in an average veggie restaurant. It's a bit expensive for a local.
My favorite ones are the ones which are owned by Chinese Taoists; they opened very good vegetarian restaurants here (they aren't Chinese food restaurants... they mostly invented a blend between occidental and oriental food from everywhere).


Thanks for the story, always interesting to hear things like this. Your God story reminds me of the Bible Theme Park a bit outside Buenos Aires. I went there and had a great time... but I had to keep my laughter on the inside. It was truly the most surreal place I have ever been too I think. He he.

http://www.tierrasanta-bsas.com.ar/
A click on the "imagenes" tag will lead the non-Spanish speakers to some pics of this extremely surreal theme park!!!!
Yes, it's one of the weirdest places on Earth... One of those places in which it is impossible to avoid thinking: "I can't believe that this isn't meant to be a joke!".

I've been in Scandinavia, but I think it was in 1995. So my memories are a bit blurry. I also studied at the University with several people from Sweden (they were part of some sort of program from the State of Sweden, they received money to study here).


I will go back to Argentina one day... I want to see more than just the Capital, but when I was there I was kind of pressed for time.

Btw are there still Nazi's in Argentina hiding? Or is that just an urban myth?

Both the north and the south of Argentina are nice. Probably the north will be more interesting for you, since the south is mostly mountains and snow... you must be already used to seeing very similar places.

As for the nazis... it's not a myth that an important part of the nazi elite came to Argentina and changed their names... though, anyway, we may be talking about some 500 persons maybe. They are already dead nowadays, it's 1012. We never had a nazi culture here.
It is also true that the families of some famous nazis moved to Argentina. The grand-daughter of Himmler was the GF of my brother for a long time (that was weird; can't say I wasn't shocked), but she wasn't nazi... neither her mother was nazi; they were actually against nazism.

And then we have a weird Hitler wannabe:
http://www.diariopolitica.com/foro/fotos/biondini.jpg

The peak of his career was running as a candidate for the Congress... and got 3,000 votes. If I'm not wrong, you need some 600,000 to get into the Congress. He's mostly taken as a weird joke, like another weird thing like "Tierra Santa".

As for the other comments, I am sure Argentina is by far more authoritarian than Sweden. The political party created by Peron mostly dominates the whole of the political scene... and it's a party that was born inspired by Italian Fascism... though it has always been a democratic party (maybe like a strange and unique democratic version of fascism).
I hate the peronist party... though it's by far better than the dictatorships.

Also: I truly believe that the book I've mentioned by Lenin is a very wise book... and there's no need to be his fan or marxist to say it.
It is clearly a book filled with propaganda, but then the message is very simple: the Utopia can only be built step by step... and the "everything or nothing" ideology isn't realistic.
It is easy to disagree with his Utopia, but it's by far harder to disagree with his method, his "step by step" method.

Ezalor
12-04-2012, 12:53 AM
Just some quick lines on topic:

1; The swastika is not originated from the East. The oldest known artifacts with swastika are from Europe, and predate the oldest artifacts with swastika from India by thousands of years. Then also we can ask how the Native Americans started using it? We have no idea. Probably it was "invented" separately in different parts of the World. Well, it is a pretty Universal symbol so it makes sense.

2; The swastika does not have a defined direction. In the East it is used both ways, often having two of different direction in pair to create balance.

3; As far as I know it was H. P Blavastky who claimed that the cleanest ancestors of the Aryan race are the North-Europeans. Also, Blavatsky's concept of a super race was such, that there is always a super race FOR A WHILE before it disappears to give place to another. So in that rendering the Aryans are already a fallen race, an item of the past. Correct me if I'm wrong.

4; As far as I know the theory of "Aryan people" have been debunked since. Correct me if I'm wrong.

5; The swastika was actually quite popular already in the 1800s, not only in Germany but elsewhere also. You can for example find pre-WW2 boyscout medals and charitable organization logos from the USA using swastika. In WW1, Germans were already wearing swastika charms, and painting it on their tanks and airplanes - all that unofficially.

That's all that came to my mind right now.


Markos: I love your idea! :) And I think she can feel free to send the police on you, you tell them you are a Jew interested in Buddhism, and they won't do anything.


I truly believe that the book I've mentioned by Lenin is a very wise book... and there's no need to be his fan or marxist to say it.Once I had a chance to look into a first edition Hungarian translated "Mein Kampf". I was totally surprised, that besides the Nazi stuff, Hitler actually wrote some very very good things about Economics! And if you think about that, he kind of revolutionized German economy. So just because someone was a dictator, and had some ideas we can't accept, they may still have something we can learn, unrelated to their ideology and politics. It won't make him any better person, but throwing out his economical ideas just because he was Hitler would be like throwing out the swastika.

Krisztian
12-04-2012, 01:17 AM
1; The swastika is not originated from the East. The oldest known artifacts with swastika are from Europe, and predate the oldest artifacts with swastika from India by thousands of years. Then also we can ask how the Native Americans started using it? We have no idea. Probably it was "invented" separately in different parts of the World. Well, it is a pretty Universal symbol so it makes sense.

I didn't know about the European connection. My research led me to pre-Buddhist tradition named Bön.

Ezalor
12-04-2012, 01:32 AM
The first Indian piece I know of is Bronze age (2500 BCE). The Samarra bowl (4000 BCE) was found where today is Iraq. The oldest known piece is from Ukraine, around 10,000 BCE (Paleolithicum). There are also stone carvings in England from either the Neolithicum or Bronze age, and I saw mention of Neolithic findings in China. I also said a mention that the Vinca culture (where today is Serbia) used it first, but don't know how accurate is that.

Edit: Yes, it is used in the "Vinca script" from 6000-5000 BCE. Here you can see a list of the Vinca symbols: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vincan_symbols.jpg

Krisztian
12-04-2012, 02:42 AM
The first Indian piece I know of is Bronze age (2500 BCE). The Samarra bowl (4000 BCE) was found where today is Iraq. The oldest known piece is from Ukraine, around 10,000 BCE (Paleolithicum). There are also stone carvings in England from either the Neolithicum or Bronze age, and I saw mention of Neolithic findings in China. I also said a mention that the Vinca culture (where today is Serbia) used it first, but don't know how accurate is that. Edit: Yes, it is used in the "Vinca script" from 6000-5000 BCE. Here you can see a list of the Vinca symbols: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vincan_symbols.jpg

Interesting.