PDA

View Full Version : Occultism is EVIL (according to TV)



Awani
04-24-2012, 12:55 AM
So the other day I caught a one hour special on Swedish TV about occultism (I never watch TV but I have a knack of turning it on at the right moment...).

The program went through all the general stuff we all know, LaVey, AC, Thelema, New Age stuff etc etc... even Austin Osman Spare's stuff (which impressed me as I didn't expect it to be covered at all). They mentioned alchemy only in passing btw (not sure the masses consider it occult actually).

Generally pretty ok, but it had one problem. It couldn't let go of the connection with EVIL. The point was always there bubbling beneath the surface in the subtext... so even though they had done their research pretty good and created a program that showed all the various sides of occult subjects at the core was always this notion of EVIL.

I have never ever really felt that any of the occult subjects/areas I have investigated has anything to do with EVIL. I understand why the masses would view this stuff as EVIL, but considering the intellectual level of the program (which is quite respectable in intellectual circles) I was a little annoyed that they didn't go further.

The occultist interviewed (K. Anger amongst others) defended occultism pretty good, but what good does that do when they are not in control of the questions, the editing or the narration.

Ironically occultist are often the most open and kind people I know... they can be stubborn assholes yes, but no more so than normal folks.

No point to this, just a rant.

:cool:

zoas23
04-24-2012, 01:37 AM
You made me remember a few things:

1) That I can't help it: I realy dislike the word "Occult"... even if it has a long tradition (like the "Occulta Phhilosophia" of Agrippa), I often prefer to use any other word just to avoid this one. It became too tainted with nonsense... other words, even if they are somehow inaccurate in some contexts, are by far less stained (i.e, "Hermeticism", "the Western Mystery Tradition", etc).

2) Your post made me remember something that REALLY inspired me some years ago:
I was reading an article, published in a very decent newspaper, by a well known Argentinean philosopher in which he was openly attacking the avant-garde Art of the XX century and stating that even though people assumed that it had a progressist ideal, the case was the opposite: he was writing about the connections between avant-garde and the occult.
So his conclussion was that the avant-garde wasn't progressist because it was impossible to separate it from its "reactionary" occult ideal.

It goes without saying that I greed with 50% of his theory: it is IMPOSSIBLE to understand the avant-garde without understanding what hermeticism (or "the occult") is about.
Yes, the three fathers of abstraction were obviosuly influenced by Hermeticism and were no shy at all about it (Malevich, Mondrian and Kandinsky), Dadá and Surrealism were obviously filled with it too and even dared to write their manifestos as grimoires, one half of the Futurist group were into Theosohy... whilst the second wave of the avant-garde came with artist who openly claimed to follow a rosicrucian tradition (Klein, Beuys) or followed Hermetic ideals and filled their works with Alchemy (like Piero Manzoni... or more recently, Anselm Kieffer). Etc!!!

The second half of the theory is what didn't make sense to me: the idea that "Occultism" (damn, I hate that word!) is reactionary.
I have the opposite opinion, that it is a progressist ideal.

Some time ago a friend of mine was talking to me about the two most important moments in history during the last XX centuries according to him, he said: the birth of Jesus*, the 1969 Moon Landing.
(* My friend actually believes that Jesus isn't exactly history, but a myth that was born more or less by the time in which the history books claim that Jesis lived... and he's 100% Christian; so I really respect his point of view).

Anyway, I told him that I would add a third moment to his "two moments": the arrival of Gemistos Pletho to Florence. Pletho arriving to Florence with the Chaldean Oracles, the books by Plato and Plotinus... the Core of Neo-Platonism. Pletho was quite a weird man, his attempt to bring back the Greek Mystery cults was quite bizarre in that context... HOWEVEr, his arrival to Florence and his conference were the seed of what end up becoming the Renaissance.
I told my friend: it is impossible to tell what would have happened if Pletho didn't exist at all... but maybe there would have been no Moon Landing in 1969, because the XX century would still be just like the XIII century and the Medieval Times could have lasted forever.

It was only the "Occult" (or Hermeticism) what got all of us out of the darkest times... Hos is it possible to have the prejudice that it is a "reactionary" ideal???

(of course, the prejudice that says that it is "Evil" is weird too... though it has a long history behind its shoulders -i.e, the whole history of the Roman Church "satanizing" the occult).

MarkostheGnostic
04-24-2012, 11:36 AM
I have an assistant principal in the school where I work. He is a 45 year old, tall but overweight man, who identifies with being a drummer. Though married with 3 young girls, he is always looking back to his long-haired days of partying. Ever since he arrived at the school some 4 years ago, he's been going on about my "look." I wear my hair below the shoulders, but it's always pony-tailed or twisted. During the winter months, I wear a lot of black - biker-boots with silver eyelets and buckle, long-sleeve t-shirts and black belt, maybe with a Grateful Dead buckle or some other type. At any rate, last week he approached me and projected all his stuff on me about wanting to be a rock-and-roller. I said, "Hey man, that's all YOUR projection. I've never had a strong desire to play an instrument, just love to listen and move with music."

Yesterday he came to my room to talk about music that he has written and performed as of late, and a moment arose about "the look." I said (kind of uncritically, but I wanted to make a point), that the black clothes in rock music comes from "the occult." I went on to mention Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin first, but then rattled off Black Sabbath and all the bands they spawned, the presence of Aleister Crowley on Sargeant Pepper's (he clearly had not heard of Crowley), and I stopped my rap, hoping to have opened his eyes to the occult, read, 'hidden' aspect of why I wear black clothing, and why rock had become suffused with it (for good or ill).

Also yesterday, a female counselor showed around a photo album from a vacation last month, bound into a professional book. One pic had her daughter standing next to a large statue of a sea turtle standing upright. It was painted gold and red and blue and black like those Egyptian pieces you find, and its stomach was a large painting of the dung-beetle deity Khepri pushing the solar disk, Aten. The statue was on a pedestal of hieroglyphics. I asked "Why is there a picture of Khepri and the solar disk on this sea turtle at this Florida park?" One of the counselors said, "Only you would ask a question like that?" I thought since pains were taken to photograph and print this pic, there would be a tad background. The books owner said, "They told us that these were hiero...hiero..." "Hieroglyphics," I finished for her." Now, if I had been able to actually read the hieroglyphics on the base, I could understand that some people might be annoyed by me. People are STILL annoyed by me because I ask questions and look to understand beyond the mere sensory perception of things. I seek meaning in life, and it seems that people want me to apologize for that tendency. Perhaps when I make an otherwise innocent comment about something I recognize due to my (excuse the term) 'occult' interests, it reminds them that they are comparatively shallow in their apperception of reality, and that simple sensory perception (in any modality) is sufficient for their needs. BTW, both of these female counselors are 'foodies,' and unhealthily overweight (as the AP). OK, so I'm lean and a cerebrotonic meso-ectomorph. I'm also an INTP by MBTI description. I don't want to live in a cave, but I'm pretty much a hermit because I look to the 'hidden' depths for the meanings of things. This makes me an 'occultist,' in no uncertain, but in no sinister terms. If people immediately associate the word occult with evil (my physician associates it with the dreaded 'occult blood' in stool), it is the same as others regarding me as a druggy, an outlaw, for my use of Sacred Mushrooms, or the reason I wear my hair long. People who know my Jewish last name, if they are themselves Jewish, sometimes have become offended that I've worn a Celtic circled cross around my neck, for their persecutory associations with Christianity. People should ask questions, but they don't - they usually project their own shit and assume (making an ass out of u and me).

solomon levi
04-27-2012, 12:06 AM
I see part of the "evilness" of occultism is that it IS hidden,
and your "average" person imagines that it is someone else hiding it from them,
therefore "control", "power" and "evil"...
but people have hidden the gnosis from themselves.

Krisztian
04-27-2012, 01:46 AM
The word occult, as everyone probably knows on this Forum, means 'hidden'. That's quite foretelling, ironic in a way, that this word then would cause, appears to bring up, so much fear in the populace. I believe the reason for this is, that the populace has a great fear of their own unknown, hidden self; and/or, at least, the societal programming has conditioned people to be so. Thus, anything hidden must be fearful, dark, terrifying and so forth. What's within, I guess we could say, is very much associated with what's without.

I'm a psychologist by profession, and I'm continually surprised at how fearful people generally are. Things that are hidden, bring up a sense of loss of control in people. O, it's a traumatized society!

solomon levi
04-28-2012, 09:39 PM
Yeah. I think there's a common misunderstanding that has been passed around
that people are afraid of the unknown. I don't see this as true. The fear is losing the
identity, the known. The identity is afraid of losing itself.
When consciousness is not bound by ego/identity, it embraces the unknown as
an adventure, not fear. That is our natural habitat. Fear/ego/identity is foreign.
Some have gone so far as to call it "a foreign installation" (Castaneda) or parasite
or alien or demon.

Krisztian
04-29-2012, 12:19 AM
I actually meant that this deep-seated fear (of the occult) is automatic. It's very subconscious. Probably a programming resulting from a lack of spiritual development in people and tuning into the media, etc. on how one should think, feel and be. If it hasn't been told to people that it's alright (by the media, etc.) then people get scared. It's strange.

The more I'm evolving to the farther (deeper) reaches of myself, the more I realize how robotic people are, like automatons. I've been very grateful that my path led into the field of counselling (viz., psychology). In the last 13 years, my occupation has shown aspects of the human drama I wouldn't have otherwise discovered.

solomon levi
04-29-2012, 12:49 AM
Hi Krisztian.
I didn't mean to speak for you. I was agreeing and then
expounding on something I've noticed.

People have been killed physically and/or socially for lifetimes for
thinking outside the box. There is certainly a long-standing tradition
of conditioning people to be afraid of the occult, witchcraft, shamanism...
anything that wasn't orthodox.
Mechanical = predictable = security/order; comfort to some, prison to others.
Many authors I enjoy have recognized this mechanical, automated nature of man -
Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti, Castaneda...
Oh, Krishnamurti wasn't an author. Other people compiled his speeches/dialogues.

Krisztian
04-29-2012, 01:08 AM
O not at all. I'm enjoying this dialouge very much, solomon levi. I find your postings respectful yet (thought) provoking.

zoas23
04-29-2012, 04:23 AM
I see part of the "evilness" of occultism is that it IS hidden,
and your "average" person imagines that it is someone else hiding it from them,
therefore "control", "power" and "evil"...
but people have hidden the gnosis from themselves.

Yeah. I think there's a common misunderstanding that has been passed around
that people are afraid of the unknown. I don't see this as true. The fear is losing the
identity, the known. The identity is afraid of losing itself.

I think you and Krisztian are half-right... but also ignoring an important part of this whole issue. I assume that the problem is that the both of you are insiders... so the two of you are forgetting which ones are the true prejudices of an absolute outsider and where these prejudices come from.
I know that you and I have very different opinions on what "losing the identity" means in a practical way... and yet I am quite sure that 99% of the people who think that the Occult is evil don't even relate the Occult with the idea of "losing the identity" (without caring how we define such thing).

In my opinion, you are focussing on the psychological part... but mostly missing the historical and political part of this issue.

Why was Socrates sentenced to death -or exile?
Was it really because of Religious reasons? (i.e, "introducing new Gods", "Not respecting the Gods of the Polis of Athens", etc).
In my opinion, the real reasons were political... the Sophists were already questioning mostly everything they wanted and none of them was getting killed. Gorgias was free to speak in defense of Helen or even question the existence of the Universe... and he never faced any kind of trial.
Socrates pissed off the Sophists, he questioned their methods, he questioned their way of finding the truth or the lack of truth... but, by doing such thing, he was also questioning the whole political system of Athens. By questioning the "truth" of the sophists, he was also questioning the "truth" of those who had the real political power.
Killing Socrates was a conservative political move... Socrates had become a political trouble.

When Christianism was born, quite soon it was divided in two main groups... a neo-platonic group (Gnostics) and a neo-aristotelian group (non-gnostic).
Of course, the Roman Church, even before Constantine, always held the beliefs of non-gnostic Christianity and "satanized" gnosticism.
And, of course, Constantine did exactly the same.
There are very obvious political reasons.
Gnosticism made the whole of the Church and the Political Power become something laughable.

There's a very old tradition... James Frazer explained it very well in his Golden Bough: the King is meant to be the "Son of God", "Chosen by God"... or the one who really knows what God wants, or the "voice of God on Earth", etc.

Gnosticism involved a very dangerous political idea: the King, the Emperor, the Pope, the Authority... all of them were just like any other man, they had nothing special.. we didn't actually need them to be saved or to KNOW what God is.

Nietzsche, who despised anarchists, was not wrong at all when he wrote that the first Christians were dangerous anarchists.
Gnosticism questioned the established hierarchy of the truth (again, to be accepted as a King a person doesn't need to have more money than the other persons, nor he needs to have more strength... nor he needs to be older... but what he really needs is to convince most people that he is the owner of the unquestionable truth and that he has some sort of special relationship with the truth that no other person has).

So... maybe you are half-right... however, the prejudices we see nowadays against the "Occult" are also what we inherited from at least 2,000 years of satanizing the idea that every man and every woman is able to find the ultimate truth by himself.

Ghislain
04-29-2012, 01:05 PM
I have heard of the word Occult and never really understood what it was.

I thought I would remedy this by looking in a dictionary.

Unfortunately I am little the wiser for it, as it can mean so many different things.

Which discription should one use to understand the original post?


Occult

adjective

1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or
knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding;
mysterious.

3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

4. hidden from view.

5. (in early science)

a. not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by
experimentation.
b. of a nature not understood, as physical qualities.
c. dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.

6. Medicine/Medical. present in amounts too small to be visible: a
chemical test to detect occult blood in the stool.

noun

7. the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as
a whole (usually preceded by the ).

8. occult studies or sciences (usually preceded by the ).

verb (used with object)

9. to block or shut off (an object) from view; hide.

10. Astronomy . to hide (a celestial body) by occultation.

verb (used without object)

11. to become hidden or shut off from view.

Origin:

1520–30; < Latin occultus (past participle of occulere to hide from view,
cover up), equivalent to oc- oc- + -cul-, akin to cēlāre to conceal + -tus
past participle suffix

Related forms

oc•cult•er, noun
oc•cult•ly, adverb
oc•cult•ness, noun
non•oc•cult, adjective
non•oc•cult•ing, adjective

Synonyms

2. metaphysical, supernatural. 3. concealed, unrevealed; veiled, shrouded;
mystical, cabalistic.

Also can anything be classed as super-natural? If it is it is, surely thats natural. To be super-natural must depend on where one draws the line on 'Natural'

Ghislain

Krisztian
05-01-2012, 03:38 PM
zoas23, solomon levi: Mitch Horowitz talked about the history of the occult on Coast to Coast AM radio program on April 30th, 2012. Host George Noory also brought up the association of occult with sinister forces.

Krisztian
05-01-2012, 03:42 PM
In my opinion, you are focussing on the psychological part... but mostly missing the historical and political part of this issue.

I think you mention a good point, zoas23. It may very well be an influence of the hand of religions and politics.

solomon levi
05-01-2012, 11:07 PM
So... maybe you are half-right... however, the prejudices we see nowadays against the "Occult" are also what we inherited from at least 2,000 years of satanizing the idea that every man and every woman is able to find the ultimate truth by himself.

I did also mentioned this half in post #8 :)
"People have been killed physically and/or socially for lifetimes for
thinking outside the box. There is certainly a long-standing tradition
of conditioning people to be afraid of the occult, witchcraft, shamanism...
anything that wasn't orthodox."


Another aspect is that sorcerers can be frightening.
They have very different views and generally don't care for social norms,
morality, people's imagined rights like free will, human laws...
I am not a sorcerer, but I share many of their views/seeing.
A lot of people may use this as ammo against me, but I don't care anymore -
human beings who are subject to their mechanical minds, the illusion of the ego identity,
who sleep through life in subjective dreams... there is a tendency to dismiss them as elitists
do, like reading the Protocols of the Elders of Sion (whether it is a real article or not)
and they think of the masses as sheep or goyim, commodities. Im not an elitist either,
but it is easy to see these people in that way; I mean it's not altogether inaccurate.
People have chosen that place for comfort, for someone to take care of them, someone
else to govern them, for convenience, to buy groceries and clothes at shopping centers
instead of having to grow and make them ourselves... we've sold our souls, literally.
Anyway, my point is that sorcerers and elitists don't care or have feelings for these
lazy ignorant people (not meant as a judgement but an accurate description - it is laziness,
it is ignorance) and will use them because they have agreed/made themselves
available to be used. This may be rediculous gas prices, hypnosis, sending them to wars,
programming them through television and media, poisoning their food, infecting them
with HIV, bombarding them with electromagnetic frequencies... I could go on and on.
People need to remove themselves from the influence instead of blaming the influencers.

I hope it is clear that because I do not judge these people, on either side, doesn't mean I
agree with either of them, nor do I practice in taking advantage of others. But it isn't evil,
though I know many will think so. It's an agreement between two parties that no third
party can judge, especially when most who would judge are involved in these very same
agreements - those without sin may cast the first stone. I would also argue it's not evil
because machines are not evil, computer programs are not evil, etc, but I know many will
not see that either. It really doesn't make a difference to call it evil - it is what it is, calling it
evil or not doesn't change that. These "classifications" or whatever they are are meaningless
indulgences to me which make no difference in the world of actions.

Andro
05-01-2012, 11:47 PM
Another aspect is that sorcerers can be frightening.
They have very different views and generally don't care for social norms,
morality, people's imagined rights like free will, human laws...

Indeed. See the Separator story (especially its conclusion) in this regard (norms, laws, morality, etc...)

Let me just say that IF you have the appropriate abilities/training AND are ready and willing to actively employ 'sorcery' (I'm not) along with the set of views that accompany it, you better have NO traces of guilt and fear in your system - otherwise it will backfire like bloody hell... My experience with this is very limited, I was young and foolish, acting out of a combination between heartbreak and rage, and the consequences (for me) took years to 'rectify'.

I only 'employed' it two other times, only these times it just happened through me, without any involvement of conscious will.

What was present was very similar to what is described in the last X-Men movie: A very special combination of Serenity and Rage.

I think it's good for me to save this stuff for a rainy day, but for now I prefer to keep my focus on Healing (only with consent) and Psychic Defense, whenever needed (which is always :)).

solomon levi
05-02-2012, 01:06 AM
Indeed. See the Separator story (especially its conclusion) in this regard (norms, laws, morality, etc...)

Let me just say that IF you have the appropriate abilities/training AND are ready and willing to actively employ 'sorcery' (I'm not) along with the set of views that accompany it, you better have NO traces of guilt and fear in your system - otherwise it will backfire like bloody hell... My experience with this is very limited, I was young and foolish, acting out of a combination between heartbreak and rage, and the consequences (for me) took years to 'rectify'.


This is a great point IMO.
Of course there are a lot of people who can fool themselves into thinking they
are beyond guilt and karma... the thing is it IS possible - some can actually pull it off.
I have at times. There must be an identity to have karma - someone to pin it on. ;)

Here's a good discussion on the topic IMO, #18 with the commentary:
http://books.google.com/books?id=90XTo7FtoeUC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=How+to+know+god+the+yoga+aphorisms+of+Patanjali +burnt+seeds&source=bl&ots=li5G3BbNR-&sig=hu6--MSztw-hspzLw2Hd33foAMQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L4GgT_LmD6msiQL-h5nEAg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

We read that a liberated being, one who is "beyond all objective knowledge, into union with
the Atman - the undifferentiated universal consciousness" (what I have called the whole, God, Oneness),
and freed from samskaras/impressions... their "thoughts, words and actions... are said to be like "burnt seeds" -
they cannot bring forth any more samskaras, create any new addiction or bondage/karma."

solomon levi
05-02-2012, 04:49 AM
"You're afraid of me, you say, of the awesomeness of my knowledge, that there is no solace for you, no haven to go to. I represent the warrior's freedom. Solace, haven, fear, all of them are moods that you have learned without ever questioning their value." Castaneda's don Juan

Awani
05-02-2012, 05:45 PM
the idea that every man and every woman is able to find the ultimate truth by himself.

They will in death, and if not we can always take help from psychedelic plants.

:cool: