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Ghislain
05-01-2012, 06:31 PM
Lately I have noticed discussions moving more and more to the personal rather than the perspective.

I would guess that this may be causing a minimising effect on posts people would like to submit, but fear the
ramification of personal castigation, sometimes openly sometimes subtly.

Below is an article by Bes Zain I came across...I'll let Ben explain as what he says I happen to agree with.


I regularly see people disagreeing over different things both online and offline. People try to prove others wrong in even the smallest of arguments. While you may win an argument by proving someone wrong, you will not actually make that person realize and respect the validity of your argument. When arguing, try to disagree with the argument in question, and not with the person arguing with you. When you focus on disagreeing with the argument at hand only you are basically telling the other person you are not attacking them directly and are instead trying to show why your argument may be valid. Such a method of disagreement will make the other person reconsider their own argument.

Do not make an argument personal

When you argue about something, you are basically saying the other person is wrong about that thing. Such an interpretation is natural and instant. You have to go an extra step and show that you are attacking the argument only and not the other person. If you disagree with a person instead of their argument, you make the whole argument a personal issue. When it comes to personal issues, people automatically become defensive. I have seen several relationships since childhood, both business and personal, where people in different situations focused on showing that the other person was wrong instead of disagreeing with what had happened. Most of such relationships ended in disasters. The more you disagree with a person directly, the more the other person will feel defensive in an argument.

Only the other person can let you win an argument

Disagree with arguments and make friends with people who have different views. If you cannot do that, disagree with issues and be a stranger to other people. That is better than making others think you are trying to prove them wrong. Talk about the issue, and focus on the arguments. Never argue to prove you are right. If you are right and argue only about the validity of your points in an argument, the other person will acknowledge with their own free will that you are right about a certain issue. That is the only way in my view an argument should be won.

Source ( http://thereasoner.com/articles/disagree-with-arguments-not-with-people-who-argue)

I can see people saying "yes, that is what I do", but in reality this not always the case and just by saying "dont take this personally" and then trashing another's argument as stupid or ill informed, you are still attacking the person not the argument.

IMO attacking or retaliating is a sign of ignorance.

If someone does this to you, do not retaliate, just point out their error.

Re-read your post before submitting it and maybe you may change the way it is presented.

If I am guilty of this myself please feel free to point it out.

Thank you

Ghislain

Andro
05-01-2012, 07:45 PM
Excellent, and THANK YOU for this ! ! !

Fortunately, I think I can only count no more than 2-3 'chronic' cases on AF (those who tend to place a little too much focus on how 'wrong' others are).

The rest of us generally slip every once in a while.

My vision has always been to share one's perspective (even if it's a strong belief that can not be backed by reason or logical argument) - but NEVER claim that one's perspective or belief is universally 'right' or 'true', especially if such claims (d)evolve into focusing on how the other person's perspective or belief is 'wrong'/'bullshit'/'silly'/'horrifying'/'far from the heart'/'wicked'/'godless'/'non-righteous'/'not in accord with god's will'/etc...

In other words, don't act like pompous, self-righteous, sanctimoniously pontificating missionaries. Be and let be.
I think this should really be a very important guideline for debating/sharing/discussing topics on Alchemy Forums.

You're not Elvis performing in front of an audience. You're not here to 'save' anyone or to judge anyone, certainly not to tell anyone what's 'wright' or 'wrong' for them.

If you think/believe you are - there are other forums more compatible with this mindset. This is how I see it.

As an example for 'Totalitarian Salvationists' - when someone tells me they will 'pray for me' - I usually reject the offer.

But the worst thing is they rarely (if at all) ask for permission. This is spiritual RAPE. Get it ? ? ?

There's a story about an old Zen Master who travels a long way from home to speak to an audience of aspiring monks.

After the long travel, he gets up there and says only one phrase, to the astonishment of the expecting monks:

"During all my years on this earth and all my far-reaching travels, I have never encountered anything that wasn't true."

After which he exited and immediately commenced his long journey back home.

Seth-Ra
05-01-2012, 08:27 PM
Because All is part of the One, and the game/story will be done/completed/progressed, it really is ok to simply:

Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.
Revelation 22:11 NIV

Understand self, to understand side - respect all sides, for they each serve a point. All is as it should be, ever.

But of course, when one does not purposefully look at the whole, but only on the personal/fragment/dual perspective, they will war with the opposition. Its natural, and i dont see the problem - nor do i see the problem with seeing from the whole and objectively ignoring the dual-sides for the purpose of discussion. Its all ok - and its all what everyone decides to make of it.

If someone says to you (whoever reads this), that you are a "dumb, wrong, ignorant blah blah blah blah blah!!!" - you have several options to respond. You can dodge and subtly counter the attack by ignoring it (a totally passive thing, though it may not resolve anything either). You can objectively look from the whole, agree with it and disagree with it (both simultaneously), laughing the entire thing off. You can also retaliate - which is usually the case, and thus the dragons fight. Is there a wrong choice? Since all are options - no. Since which ever you pick, IS, then by all means, pick. Just understand, and understand/respect the opposition for what it is - a good time, a fun fight, and a chance for both to learn, or for those watching, to learn. :)




~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
05-02-2012, 01:37 AM
the four agreements - don miguel ruiz's code for life

agreement 1
Be impeccable with your word - Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

agreement 2
Don’t take anything personally - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

agreement 3
Don’t make assumptions - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

agreement 4
Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.


There is an NLP agreement or presupposition that people already are always doing their best.
http://www.achievingexcellence.com/p-a_nlp_presup.html

And the first presupposition enforces the 2nd agreement of Ruiz.

zoas23
05-02-2012, 02:19 AM
Some quotes by my favorite anarchist & musician & writer: John Cage... maybe the first quote should be more than enough!

(all of them from his "Indeterminacy" book).

I felt these 4 were related to this thread... they are also fun to read.


Xenia told me once that when she was a child in Alaska,
she and her friends had a club and there was only one rule: No silliness.


An Indian lady invited me to dinner and said Dr.
Suzuki would be there. He was.
Before dinner I mentioned Gertrude Stein.
Dr. Suzuki had never heard of her. I
described aspects of her work, which he said sounded
very interesting. Stimulated, I mentioned
James Joyce, whose name was also new to him.
At dinner he was unable to eat the curries
that were offered, so a few uncooked
vegetables and fruits were brought, which
he enjoyed. After dinner the talk turned
to metaphysical problems, and there were
many questions, for the hostess was a
follower of a certain Indian yogi and her
guests were more or less equally divided
between allegiance to Indian thought and to
Japanese thought. About eleven
o’clock we were out on the street walking
along, and an American lady said to Dr.
Suzuki, “How is it, Dr. Suzuki?
We spend the evening asking you
questions and nothing is decided.” Dr.
Suzuki smiled and said, “That’s why
I love philosophy: no one wins.”


A very dirty composer was attempting to explain to a friend how dirty a person was whom he
had recently met.

He said, “He has dirt between his fingers
the way you and I have between our toes.”



You probably know the one about the two
monks, but I’ll tell it
anyway. They were
walking along one day when they came to
a stream where a young lady was
waiting, hoping that someone
would help her across.
Without hesitating, one
of the monks picked her up and carried
her across, putting her
down safely on the other side.

The two monks continued walking along,
and after some time,
the second one,
unable to restrain himself,
said to the first,
“You know we’re not
allowed to touch women.
Why did you carry that woman
across the stream?”
The first monk replied,
“Put her down.
I did two hours ago.”

Nibiru
05-02-2012, 03:27 AM
You probably know the one about the two
monks, but I’ll tell it
anyway. They were
walking along one day when they came to
a stream where a young lady was
waiting, hoping that someone
would help her across.
Without hesitating, one
of the monks picked her up and carried
her across, putting her
down safely on the other side.

The two monks continued walking along,
and after some time,
the second one,
unable to restrain himself,
said to the first,
“You know we’re not
allowed to touch women.
Why did you carry that woman
across the stream?”
The first monk replied,
“Put her down.
I did two hours ago.”

This quote was my favorite of the group, it seems to be appropriate for more than one of our recent threads of popular interests..

Ghislain
05-02-2012, 02:43 PM
Could you explain the monk story...I must be a bit slow.

Is it that the first monk wasn't listening to the second, or that he heard what he expected the second to say?

Ghislain :confused:

horticult
05-02-2012, 03:03 PM
Could you explain the monk story...I must be a bit slow.

Is it that the first monk wasn't listening to the second, or that he heard what he expected the second to say?

Ghislain :confused:

no
he finished with her as he put her down


the other is thinking about it till now ;-)

Nibiru
05-02-2012, 07:31 PM
Could you explain the monk story...I must be a bit slow.

Is it that the first monk wasn't listening to the second, or that he heard what he expected the second to say?

Ghislain :confused:

Lol!! Thanks for that Ghislain :)


Sorry, would you mind explaining this to me in a different way. I don't quite understand the analogy.

I apologize in advance if your question was not meant to be a humorous response to my above quote from yesterday.

Ghislain
05-03-2012, 02:38 AM
I have it now :)

Thanks

I was not reading "put her down" as an instruction, but rather a repetition of confirmation of what the
second monk had said and hence it made no sense to me as the second monk hadn't said it.

I guess that goes to show how one may jump to a wrong conclusion if looking in a different direction.

Ghislain

Loki Morningstar
08-18-2016, 10:47 AM
I know this is an old thread. But as, in my opinion, as it is such a useful thread, I would like to bring it to the fore again.

Being new to forums, I recently realised I am not heeding this advice, and it is something I should work on. Lots of great advice, I especially like the NLP part; people are always doing their best, believing they are making the best decisions they can, with the information they have available to them. I will regularly remind myself of this, and take it on board.

I also realise that, unless someone is searching for a new viewpoint, it is unlikely I will be able to assist someone to think differently about a subject via discussion on a forum. Even if I feel it could benefit them. Because face to face, personal, empathic chats are necessary to be able to really get into something. And busting my ass attempting to do so on the forum, is only likely to be taken the wrong way, and cause me stress in the long run.

If I have a different opinion from someone from now on. If I feel I would like to know more about their opinion, I will ask questions. If I believe something different, it is not really worth me talking to that person about it unless they are interested and asking questions about my opinion. This way, I should be able to get the best out of my experience here. And if I feel a need to share my own opinion on something, I can just share it as such, my opinion. This way there is no need for me to get into discussion over it, unless I would like to gain understanding of someone else's opinion, hopefully saving myself from pointless confrontation.

Thanks to Andro for bringing this thread to my attention.

Love and Light,

Loki.

zoas23
08-18-2016, 07:13 PM
If I have a different opinion from someone from now on. If I feel I would like to know more about their opinion, I will ask questions. If I believe something different, it is not really worth me talking to that person about it unless they are interested and asking questions about my opinion. This way, I should be able to get the best out of my experience here. And if I feel a need to share my own opinion on something, I can just share it as such, my opinion. This way there is no need for me to get into discussion over it, unless I would like to gain understanding of someone else's opinion, hopefully saving myself from pointless confrontation.

Nice post.

Since the thread about the "Spiritual Alchemy Hoax" was reasonably locked, I will use your post to invite Axismundi000 to come to terms and accept this white flag:

http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/dc7/k9B/dc7k9BGc9.gif

And let's "begin again" respecting each other, even if we have different views (though I think we don't even have different views). I take it for granted that such thing will be more pleasant for both of us (Axis and I).

JinRaTensei
08-18-2016, 08:22 PM
I think the "problem" Axis may have is behaviour of some members which could be viewed as virtue signaling although they had nothing to do with the first argument, despite of that probably not being their motive.
It is exactly the same as me coming here and talking "for" Axis point. Even if I mean well it is just not my place. Likewise wanting harmony, peace and an productive athmosphere is somethig which seems logic and therefor advocating it should not be something negative but it is still controlling behaviour which I would not call fascist but I certainly can understand the reasoning.
zoas23 you and Axis should just be nice to each other and find the things you can agree on!

You see how condescending this can sound? Who am I to tell 2 adults how to deal with their conflict/discussion?
zoas23 is right, imo, in the things he said and Axis is right, imo, in being pissed. This is why you both are not talking to each other right now because
neither of you views his/her actions as wrong and thereby none of you is actually addressing the elephant in the room, imo.

I want to state that I have no side in this and have equally high respect for zoas and Axis.

zoas23
08-18-2016, 09:26 PM
zoas23 you and Axis should just be nice to each other and find the things you can agree on!

You see how condescending this can sound? Who am I to tell 2 adults how to deal with their conflict/discussion?

I do not see such thing as condescending at all...

The argument/discussion between Axis and me has arrived to an unbelievable level of idiocy (from both parts) that makes the two of us say stupid things... and I KNOW we are both better than that.

The suggestion came from me, though if it had come from you (let's pretend that it came from you), I would not see it as a way of trying to "control" me at all... This place is beautiful, the BEST alchemy forum there is... It makes no sense to me to spoil it with silly flame wars that lead nowhere...

And the WORST enemies CAN end up becoming very close friends, which, in my opinion, is nicer and more productive.

So my idea with Axis is: let's forget about who's to blame for what happened and let's begin again... Tabula Rasa and let's talk to each other being nice, kind and helpful. It's not even hard to do it! :)

JinRaTensei
08-18-2016, 09:43 PM
Like I said I have no part in this and I personally do not see you in any controlling way, so no need to explain anything to me further on. Whatever you two decide or not is up to you. I just wished to give my perspective on this as a bystander so that everyone who wishes can entertain another perspective on what might be a part of reasoning in this.

I agree this forum is awesome :)

Every conflict is like a plow which will thrust into the soil,shuffle through which is contained inside and dig up to the surface that what needs to breath and be touched by the light of the day. No matter what will sprout in the new ground it will be fertile.

Axismundi000
08-19-2016, 04:09 PM
zoas23 I am happy to draw a line under all this and move on. All I ask is you refrain from obscene language towards me, if you couch your opinions in any other way I have no problem with them.

zoas23
08-19-2016, 07:08 PM
zoas23 I am happy to draw a line under all this and move on. All I ask is you refrain from obscene language towards me, if you couch your opinions in any other way I have no problem with them.

A friend of mine, a psychologist, did an interesting research on the subject of what happens when a person is insulted during a discussion on a subject. His conclusion was that the IQ of the insulted person has a tendency to get reduced. i.e, that we become very "basic" and in most cases we reply something stupid too.

What did we learn?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VjPM5CeWs

Yeah! Let's just not do it again!