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Awani
05-02-2012, 10:02 PM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/575224_3555732808592_1130853257_4319032_577706055_ n.jpg

:cool:

Salazius
05-03-2012, 08:39 AM
And this kind of mindmapping do not make the link with the families owning these companies (Rockfeller, Rothchild ...). Which restrain even more the "choice".

Ghislain
05-03-2012, 12:53 PM
Something I am aware of, but looks so much better in that pictorial form. Really brings it home how manipulated we are. :(

It makes my head spin because that probably only scratches the surface of the truth of it all.

If you happen to mention it you're cast as a conspiracy theorist and thats just the way they like it.

You big conspiracy theorist Dev :)

Ghislain

Edit: I guess its not so much a theory when it's fact \o/

Can one be cast as a factist?

Awani
05-03-2012, 01:42 PM
It is not a conspiracy. It is greed.

:cool:

Andro
08-05-2012, 03:16 PM
Some musings:

We only invent 'choices' to maintain the illusion of control and to avoid acknowledging the INEVITABILITY of the one and only point where all possible realities implode into ONE: The Event Horizon/Singularity of NOW. Unlike the common belief in 'cause and effect' (As in: 'The past determining the present, the present determining the future, etc...'), Time is NOT a sequence of unfolding events, but rather a perspective-related dilation of ONE single (and inevitable) 'Event', observed/perceived/experienced from a 'circular' Infinity of virtual viewpoints ('A Circle who's Center is Everywhere and who's Circumference is NowHere').

Krisztian
08-06-2012, 02:06 AM
Where are the days when one wanted a dress-suit, and they went to their local tailor? May I also add that there was only one (perhaps, two) in town. You know the story, their great-grandparents were also fine tailors.

With all the commercialism, advertisements, this and that logo, I noticed over the years how much I turned away from wearing Big Brother's commercial logos, for example, on t-shirts, jackets, etc. I also often get locally-grown vegetables, etc. I'm grateful to have moved away from larger cosmopolitan areas. More integrated into Mother Nature, and to Her ways! One needs to have detoxification from the bombardment of greedy commercialism.

Well, it is what it is. I guess the ultimate rule, 'at the end of the day', what matter the most is, that you and I are happy.

Ghislain
08-06-2012, 07:19 AM
what matter the most is, that you and I are happy.

Isnít happy a state of mind; usually chemically induced.

There are many mood altering chemicals produced in the body such as Endorphins, Dopamine,
Melatonin, Serotonin, Epinephrine (Adrenalin) etc...Please excuse me if I got some of them wrong,
but I hope you get the gist.

Taking this into account a slight chemical imbalance can throw our demeanour out of sync so that in a
situation where we should be happy we are not or in a situation where we should not be happy we are.

So where does that leave us...even happy is not a choice we can make, itís a chemical illusion.

Ghislain

Salazius
08-06-2012, 11:11 AM
Chemicals in our body are for me a consequence, not a cause.

Hormons and "ins" (endorphins, serotonin ...) are like fluidic capacitors for energy to enter this realm and have a physical effect.

Krisztian
08-06-2012, 03:27 PM
Taking this into account a slight chemical imbalance can throw our demeanour out of sync so that in a situation where we should be happy we are not or in a situation where we should not be happy we are. So where does that leave us...even happy is not a choice we can make, itís a chemical illusion.

In my experience, the closer we are to our soul's calling, the happier we are. What you mentioned is materialism, thinking as such. I work with addictions and mental health every day, only people who're lost a step or two in materialism, drifted away from spirituality, struggle with happiness.

The other way to know whether one is happy, in an authentic way, is to see whether that person is balanced emotionally. If someone is unstable, labile, then that person will be very much the victim of advertisement, commercialism, etc.

One has to ask, do we have any addictions? If yes, then that person doesn't know happiness.

Krisztian
08-06-2012, 03:29 PM
Chemicals in our body are for me a consequence, not a cause.

Hormons and "ins" (endorphins, serotonin ...) are like fluidic capacitors for energy to enter this realm and have a physical effect.

I agree. I didn't see your posting before I posted my view.

Ghislain
08-06-2012, 04:23 PM
Years ago I used to partake of an E or two...the feeling could easily have been described as ecstasy.
The reason I stopped taking them was because, as nice as the feeling of euphoria was, it wasn’t real
it had something missing, but the thing it showed me was that our minds can easily be induced with
feelings and emotions that are not real.

Taking this a step further I realised these "natural" feelings are not real they are brought about by chemical
release of particular glands...

Ask yourself, why do I have to be happy or sad, angry or calm? We know the effects of being in
these states, but what purpose does it serve? Do I need the reward of happiness and what benefit could
there possibly be of feeling down? Apart from writing the Blues.

Don’t get me wrong I have more than my fare share of "happiness"...I get it from my family, my work,
my hobbies etc... but that doesn’t stop me from asking why.

Look at people with Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) why them and not me? Chemical imbalance
perhaps? Some part of the machine not working properly?

I would say the majority of people drift through life on some sort of even keel, but when asked to
look deeper and check to see if they are really happy they probably say no...The reason possibly
being they are not supposed to think of the sense in it they are just supposed to go along with it. Doesn't
that seem like some sort of mindless automaton?

Perhaps that is where the choice is...you don’t have to just accept it you can ask why.

I shall start a new thread called "What Makes Us Happy and Why?" (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3065-What-Makes-Us-Happy-and-Why&p=23780#post23780)

Ghislain

solomon levi
11-27-2012, 08:20 PM
I finally started watching "Lost" to see what the hubba hubba is about. :)
In the 1st season someone says that choice is what makes us different from the animals.
So I consider that... is that what makes us unique?, human?
What is choice?
We always have to be intentional with our words/definitions... well, I do.

So I was talking about this with Nibiru today... certainly choice doesn't mean our ability
to choose to wear khakis over jeans or to eat rice instead of wheat...
these are miniscule choices... what I realised is there are two ways to speak of it
and using "evolution" as a topic is a good way to define it: what science generally
considers evolution is this lengthy process that Nature does, to make gold for instance,
ot to evolve from oceans to land, etc. But that evolution, and corresponding use of choice,
is not the same as conscious evolution and Choice that makes a huge difference now.
Like how being awake/conscious is not at all like being asleep/unconscious - that's a huge
dimensional difference. I mean "awake" and "asleep" more than one way also.
On a sleep/dream level, the two experiences even require different languages... like what I dreamt
last night was so amazing and had many words in the dream to describe it but when I woke all
I could think of to describe it was the word "dose" or "dosage". I was dreaming about dosage
but not only as we commonly think of it materially but also as consciousness - how consciousness
is about quality and quantity, wavelength and amplitude, and these describe a "dosage". Anyway,
that's the best I could translate, and that itself takes talent and power - to make that poor translation.

So the tricky thing about choice is the tricky thing about everything: the "alchemist" is the most
significant ingredient and source of transmutation/determining... the observer affects what s/he observes.
We can make miniscule "choices" without even being awake/aware - still in our "animal nature".
These so called choices still require you to have many lifetimes of repetitive/recycled behavoir...
slow natural evolution of the species/collective. It's still choice but on a slow time line.
There's also Choice which is profound, timeless, changes everything - past and future from the now
instead of past through the "now" into the future (linear). And isn't alchemy, at least in making
the Philosophers' stone, in need of man to perfect what nature started... that's real choice,
also real creation instead of combining or recombining already existing things in different ways
and calling that "creative"... again, it is and it isn't. Man can not only choose, but can create like God;
true, original creations... we can add a new feather to the Eagle's emanations (or scale to the Dragon's).
Thus, IMO, people should really consider that true alchemy may be a unique creation for each alchemist;
the secret is your next step... individual and unique, though generic and collectively falling into some
area of "the system" or stage of the work.

III
11-27-2012, 11:17 PM
I finally started watching "Lost" to see what the hubba hubba is about. :)

In the 1st season someone says that choice is what makes us different from the animals.
So I consider that... is that what makes us unique?, human?
What is choice?
We always have to be intentional with our words/definitions... well, I do.

So I was talking about this with Nibiru today... certainly choice doesn't mean our ability
to choose to wear khakis over jeans or to eat rice instead of wheat...
these are miniscule choices... what I realised is there are two ways to speak of it
and using "evolution" as a topic is a good way to define it: what science generally
considers evolution is this lengthy process that Nature does, to make gold for instance,
ot to evolve from oceans to land, etc. But that evolution, and corresponding use of choice,
is not the same as conscious evolution and Choice that makes a huge difference now.
Like how being awake/conscious is not at all like being asleep/unconscious - that's a huge
dimensional difference. I mean "awake" and "asleep" more than one way also.
On a sleep/dream level, the two experiences even require different languages... like what I dreamt
last night was so amazing and had many words in the dream to describe it but when I woke all
I could think of to describe it was the word "dose" or "dosage". I was dreaming about dosage
but not only as we commonly think of it materially but also as consciousness - how consciousness
is about quality and quantity, wavelength and amplitude, and these describe a "dosage". Anyway,
that's the best I could translate, and that itself takes talent and power - to make that poor translation.

So the tricky thing about choice is the tricky thing about everything: the "alchemist" is the most
significant ingredient and source of transmutation/determining... the observer affects what s/he observes.
We can make miniscule "choices" without even being awake/aware - still in our "animal nature".
These so called choices still require you to have many lifetimes of repetitive/recycled behavoir...
slow natural evolution of the species/collective. It's still choice but on a slow time line.
There's also Choice which is profound, timeless, changes everything - past and future from the now
instead of past through the "now" into the future (linear). And isn't alchemy, at least in making
the Philosophers' stone, in need of man to perfect what nature started... that's real choice,
also real creation instead of combining or recombining already existing things in different ways
and calling that "creative"... again, it is and it isn't. Man can not only choose, but can create like God;
true, original creations... we can add a new feather to the Eagle's emanations (or scale to the Dragon's).
Thus, IMO, people should really consider that true alchemy may be a unique creation for each alchemist;
the secret is your next step... individual and unique, though generic and collectively falling into some
area of "the system" or stage of the work.


Hi Solomon,

Thus, IMO, people should really consider that true alchemy may be a unique creation for each alchemist;

the secret is your next step... individual and unique, though generic and collectively falling into some area of "the system" or stage of the work.


And that is a major BINGO.

I have helped perhaps a dozen people go the first 2 rounds of alchemy and change by solving their own labyrinth. It's sort of "first two are free". They are not difficult and they don't establish the process, therefore might be considered "conditional" or "uncommitted" or "trainee". The third round is something else again. This is more difficult and makes a change such that the person becomes established in the process. The process amounts to completely deconstructing a persons foundation and rebuilding it "properly". There is no going back after that. Most people get a good look at that threshold and make a choice to drop it right there and do something that doesn't require them to change their most favored beliefs. This is something that as far as I know can only be done in a small group as the group never gets past whatever holds up the least knowledgable person in the group. "Knowledgable" is not an intellectual attribute in this. Intellectuals are the most difficult to take through an Alchemy because one has to feel and NOT be attached to the intellectual ideas that are continuously changing as one changes the self.

In doing our Alchemy we are creating out future self, the nature and balance of our intelligence and consciousness. This the real creation we can do. And the moves are highly different. For one person it might be standing up to the boss. For another it might be genuinely listening to what the boss is saying. These are opportunities to change ourselves in various ways. "One man's meat is another man's poi, Son" as Feghoot told his son at the cannibal feast.

So I consider that... is that what makes us unique?, human? What is choice?

One must be awake and conscious to make real choices. Dream choices do not change our being.

A choice is ofter presented so that we can either react; ie argue, defend, attack or whatever, that rejects the offered "energy" (information) or one can do what seems like "turn the other cheek" or "forgive" and thereby absorb the gift of energy and become larger and gain information. That is one kind of choice. And so the waundering monk's game as it is sometimes called, is a cooperative version of this verbal neuromancy.

In starting a conversation with somebody with Alchemical purposes I will normally ask them "can you consider this structure I'm about to present". If they say "no" they are unteachable. If they say "ok" or "yes" or something indicating consent, I will start to lay out a small logical structure of maybe a paragraph in length. A sleeping "intellectual" will object before I can get the first sentence out of my mouth. Often the first phrase has them completely unconciously unable to control themselves and breaking in to object no matter how strongly I have stressed listening to the whole thing before responding. If they don't do that instead of listening consciously they start ignoring what I am saying in order to be able to list off all their objections to what or how something is said right from the first phrase. Again, they are quite unconscious in their dream the whole time. The closer I get to something pointing at what they don't want to hear, the more extreme and violent their objections become. They are literally unable to listen consciously for one minute. In E.J. Gold's book PRACTICAL WORK ON SELF in one exercise he has people training to be conscious in focused attention for 2 minutes. As he calls it, learn to be a 2 minute idiot. It can take a person a year of practice to become able to maintain attention for 2 minutes without presenting anything they don't want to hear. It's even harder if there is content to pay attention towards without fidgeting mentally.

Sleeping people think choice applies to the story line in the dream. However they are utterly unconsciously incapable of hearing anything that might help them take the blinders off. Everything we attempt to do is impossible until we actually do it.

To be a conscious human requires the choice be made to hear (learn of) other possiblities than what we inherently believe. Enlightenment is exactly what all the self erected barriers are meant to keep out.

And one minor addition, some ways of learning focused attention are much more quickly effective. Some tantric methods can help a person learn focused attention in 6 months instead of a year for instance.

solomon levi
11-28-2012, 03:52 AM
Thanks III. I really relate to your post as well. Most of the time, when I go out
to party or meet people, I'm a silent witness and rarely engage in conversation
because it is too subjective and miniscule... I just can't bring myself to participate
and I end up feeling odd. When I was young, all through school I was very social
and entertaining - fun... I'm not shy... I just lost the ability, the content. I wonder
if I can learn to fake it so I don't stand out (as silent/quiet) so much. I imagine it's
like losing a limb.

Gurdjieff described four states of consciousness:
sleep
waking, which he also called relative consciousness
self-consciousness
and objective consciousness.

I see we have to have some degree of self-consciousness to listen - as you say,
to already be able to question our beliefs/relative consciousness.

I was wanting to write a thread on it, like the four elements progression, but with
Fibonacci: 1, 1, 2, 3
The first 1 is sleep.
The second 1 is projection or relative consciousness.
The 2 is a third "neutral" position of observer, self-consciousness.
The 3 is the Whole/One/All, objective consciousness...

The ability to listen is a really great secret. It's magic. :)
It's also a magnet.

III
11-28-2012, 05:44 AM
Thanks III. I really relate to your post as well. Most of the time, when I go out
to party or meet people, I'm a silent witness and rarely engage in conversation
because it is too subjective and miniscule... I just can't bring myself to participate
and I end up feeling odd. When I was young, all through school I was very social
and entertaining - fun... I'm not shy... I just lost the ability, the content. I wonder
if I can learn to fake it so I don't stand out (as silent/quiet) so much. I imagine it's
like losing a limb.

Gurdjieff described four states of consciousness:
sleep
waking, which he also called relative consciousness
self-consciousness
and objective consciousness.

I see we have to have some degree of self-consciousness to listen - as you say,
to already be able to question our beliefs/relative consciousness.

I was wanting to write a thread on it, like the four elements progression, but with
Fibonacci: 1, 1, 2, 3
The first 1 is sleep.
The second 1 is projection or relative consciousness.
The 2 is a third "neutral" position of observer, self-consciousness.
The 3 is the Whole/One/All, objective consciousness...

The ability to listen is a really great secret. It's magic. :)
It's also a magnet.


Gurdjieff described four states of consciousness:
sleep
waking, which he also called relative consciousness
self-consciousness
and objective consciousness.


Yes. The various terms have been refined, perhaps, through application by various philosopical lineages. Going on the Ouspensky via DeRopp or Gold lineage, using DeRopp's descriptions in the MASTER GAME and later CHURCH OF THE EARTH, he defined 6 states of consciousness with the first room being undreaming sleep, 2nd room being dreaming sleep, "third room being "walking sleep" in which dreaming continues, fourth room being "self consciousness" in a slightly different description, the fifth room being "objective consciousness" in a slightly different guise, and then the sixth (undefinable, symbolized by the Hanged Man)


DeRopp told of some of the habits of Gurdjieff's in his last days making endless high proof toasts in armagnac to the many kinds of "idiots". "Two minute idiot" may very well have come out of that.

Traditionally there were the Lesser Mysteries and the Greater mysteries. The pre-requisite for the Greater Mysteries is of course completion of solving the Lesser Mysteries. And of course one can't possibly know what one is getting into before hand because there is no way to understand the information by one who doesn't already know. What is beyond the Greater Mysteries or one who solves them is known only to those do so I would be sure. That probably maps to "indescribable" as DeRopp put it.

Most of the time, when I go out to party or meet people, I'm a silent witness and rarely engage in conversation because it is too subjective and miniscule... I just can't bring myself to participate and I end up feeling odd. When I was young, all through school I was very social and entertaining - fun... I'm not shy... I just lost the ability, the content. I wonder if I can learn to fake it so I don't stand out (as silent/quiet) so much. I imagine it's like losing a limb.

I know what you mean. E.J. Gold might suggest making it an outer theater exercise, intentionally putting on a persona for the event. I used to attend perhaps 6-8 conferences (group medical) annually. The first evening cocktail parties were difficult. Almost all the docs have taken off their God personas amongst equals there so it is interesting seeing their human personas chafing on their unaccustomed bodies.

I just lost the ability, the content.

I have a problem with "small talk" too. It seems so ... well small and meaningless. Usually I just hang around the fringes and somebody, will stop by and ask a real question. These days during the summer I hide out for that all over tan at a nudist club and meet occasional potentially interesting people that have already more or less made it to the "accepting themselves" stage. They don't require years of work to accept their bodies. A person can't open "heart and soul" to another if their first reaction to feeling exposed is shame. There are a lot of quiet retiring folks at the clubs. In any case they accept me and my "strangeness" and not concerned that I might do something "unacceptable". When I was back in college the wildest rumors circulated about me by girls who had NEVER gone out with me. The actually warned my wife to be that I was dangerous because I "carried a briefcase" and and "used too many big words".

I've had some fun evenings of wine, women and limricks and so forth at the club. People are far more relaxed. There are no bullies as the obnoxious get the boot. The music is way too loud for any possible comfort or talking, at the dances so I usually don't go to those. I'm not really into alcohol either. A little wine or craft beer is my usual limit. Of course I include Grande Marnier as an occasional treat. The first half oz is best anyway as it deadens some of the receptors needed to really taste and smell it. Don't forget my birthday toast on Dec 21st, 11:50 pm CST (-6 GMT).

I'll expect a report on the 22nd.

solomon levi
11-28-2012, 05:59 AM
:)
Thank you for relating.
I like the six stage version. Let's me stretch Fibonacci into 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8. :)
Looking forward to your birthday!

III
11-28-2012, 06:10 AM
:)
Thank you for relating.
I like the six stage version. Let's me stretch Fibonacci into 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8. :)
Looking forward to your birthday!

Well, picture a long Fibonacci series as the key to the secrets of the Mysteries...

solomon levi
11-28-2012, 06:28 AM
Yes. It's just in my head, with the numerology and geometry as well,
8/octave is a good place to finish - double square, etc.
Not that there's a finish...
13 I can relate to as 12/zodiac + 1

I wonder what this +1 thing is...
8 = 7 + 1
13 = 12 + 1
21 = 20 + 1
34 = 33 + 1

Why are 7, 12, 33 the more familiar numbers in occultism?
Is the +1 the assumed/inherent observer? Unity? Law of One?
Or am I thinking/searching too much? :)

III
11-28-2012, 05:16 PM
Yes. It's just in my head, with the numerology and geometry as well,
8/octave is a good place to finish - double square, etc.
Not that there's a finish...
13 I can relate to as 12/zodiac + 1

I wonder what this +1 thing is...
8 = 7 + 1
13 = 12 + 1
21 = 20 + 1
34 = 33 + 1

Why are 7, 12, 33 the more familiar numbers in occultism?
Is the +1 the assumed/inherent observer? Unity? Law of One?
Or am I thinking/searching too much? :)

Hi Solomon,

Interesting. I'll tell you my experience as a +1. I have no idea if it is relevant or not. I have participated, "worked", in a variety of Goddess circles. In an invocational circle of 12 or 16 or 20 women I am usually the only male, the +1. As an Alchemist I have been initiated as both a priest and a priestess. I can participate as one of the circle or as male polarity providing a balance and balancing energy. Don't ask me why 16 +1 is in this series, it just is. It was a very specifically targeted number by the senior priestess for what I don't know. It was a 4 day invocational event and it was quite excellent

In these arrangements the geometries vary by the number and relative strengths of the people. In the 4 day even it took 3+ days to negotiate the blockages to that specific group keeping it from melding. It was extraordinary when it happened on the last day.