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Salazius
05-05-2012, 03:15 PM
Hi,

We recently had several loss/suicides in the French Alchemical world. I had an idea in order to avoid this. I want to create a hotline for Alchemists in distress. Maybe via @mails, and skype.

I also had a close friend trying to comit suicide a year ago. 5 boxes of sleeping meds. Fortunately he did an ingestion of gold elixir some time before this phase. It helped him to avoid death, even if the lethal ratio was in his blood.

Generally we have a little group of friends with who we share, sometime we don't really want to bother them with the stages we are going through, and no family, no relative can hear the pain inside. Sometime no one can understand us since WE triggered the "death phase/rotting stage"/Black Phase. Such a painful time of internal crisis ...

But I need volunteers for such enterprise.

I need experience people, confronted to such phase, and by the way, Alchemists themselve. With some knowledge of the inner cycle (black, green, white, and red).

Do you think it is a good idea ? Who is willing to help ?

Of course, confidentiality is one of the important basis of the help proposed.

Salazius

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You can also post here ideas about how you overcome sadness, procrastrination, depression, guilt, anger, no will to live ...

Andro
05-05-2012, 03:26 PM
I'm in.

But only if it's for self-alchemically-induced crisis. Many people go at least through a 'natural' Black.

The list of Alchemists going through an Alchemically-induced Black Stage is much smaller, I assume.

I can offer remote shamanic assistance, and a talk (if needed).

The Black Alchemical Death is very often suicidal.

The White 'Death' is VERY different and I don't think it needs such extreme assistance.

Salazius, maybe it's time to publish a thread with a more detailed archetypal description of the main stages.

I feel the time has come for this as well...

Salazius
05-05-2012, 03:28 PM
Thank you Andro ! :)

Yes of course, we need to know if this state is triggered by an alchemical practice of course. Otherwise there is plenty of psychotherapists in the world for that.

You are right, White Death is more peacefull. And is not so dramatically lived.

But I wonder if it is less suicidal in fact, since you have no more interests in life at all...

Yes I think it is time too, to make clear some concepts about Inner Cycle.

Andro
05-05-2012, 03:45 PM
You are right, White Death is more peaceful. And is not so dramatically lived.

But I wonder if it is less suicidal in fact, since you have no more interests in life at all...

It's a whole different kind of 'suicidal', not strictly in the vulgar sense.

For me, it involves a strong feeling of surrender.

Salazius
05-05-2012, 03:53 PM
Yes it's less suicidal. It can be socially suicidal (job, relationships, etc dying slowly but surely) ...

I feel bored and weary when in white. And with a great level of black humour (paradoxically ..) but it can makes you cruel in a sense since I feel a kind of emotionnal latence/insensibility.

It's also a moment of revolution, limits are reached and you says "I don't care about limits", "F*** the rules !" etc ...
Kind of teenager crisis. Very Uranian in a sense.

Andro
05-05-2012, 04:35 PM
Anyway, I hope you will let everyone know when you have some platform for this and how to make contact.

Salazius
05-05-2012, 04:49 PM
Sure.

I'll do.

Krisztian
05-05-2012, 06:16 PM
Anyway, I hope you will let everyone know when you have some platform for this and how to make contact.

The Opus Magnum of each person's incarnation is, that they must rise above their own suffering. When the Inner Dialogue is continuous, and there's inner strength found in the established foundation with our Inner Master, the social support, yes, it can help; but that's long left behind when there's established spirituality with our Inner Master. The true alchemical work, is a clean, stable relationship with our own Self.

There're infinite amount of objects, people, places, and things that can carry the burden of our own suffering, projected onto; but it is our spiritual calling to overcome ourselves. That's the true alchemical work. To transmute our neurochemical system by entertaining new thoughts, new realities are formed. Practical alchemy is a reflection, a mirror of that Opus.

I encourage people to read and study French alchemist Jean Dubuis and his monumental work, The Fundamentals of Esoteric Knowledge. Also, I'm a psychologist for over 13 years, and it is very clear in this field of mental health, that no one can help another person. Nor should they take away the learning that suffering provides. They'll have other incarnations, other lifetimes to perfect their Opus. No one runs out of time. We're all gods. No god can overcome another, nor force to help. If that's the case, and yes it is good intention, then that's our Opus to find peace in.

Andro
05-05-2012, 06:35 PM
Also, I'm a psychologist for over 13 years, and it is very clear in this field of mental health, that no one can help another person.

The concept does not involve psychotherapy. Are you still practicing, btw?


Nor should they take away the learning that suffering provides.

Agreed. But a point of reference/perspective/support can be provided by someone who is intimately familiar with the Black Stage and what it is usually accompanied by.

As a more common example, NA and AA group meetings are not conducted by therapists, but by people who have been through the same.

And it doesn't take away the initiatory suffering. It can't. But it can provide an alternative perspective on it.


No god can overcome another, nor force to help.

Nobody mentioned forced help. This initiative is offered to those who ask for it.

Salazius
05-05-2012, 08:00 PM
Hi Krisztian,


The Magnum Opus for someone is for me, far more than what you describe. After black, there is also the green the white and the red ... that's the whole cycle, and each colour has it's traps.

When there is no one to hear you and understand you, and give you a hand, you really feel alone, and even more lost in black. Especially when you are in the deep abysses of the Black phase.

Even what you have, positive things, you don't see it. You deny it, it's invisible, because your vision is black.
The forces to overcome your suffering ? Gone !
Motivation ? No more.

I couldn't even walk or stand at some points. Where to find force where there is no forces at all ?
Some can imagine an heroic act of some kind ... but black is black. When you tasted it you know there's nothing left to live in it. You just have to wait and hear positive things to make you going on.

You are right, no one can help, teach, etc another person. There's a need in the person, and it happens at some point of the cycle.

Black is devastating and makes you doubt of everything, even of your Inner Master.

But, that's just my experience.

Salazius

solomon levi
05-05-2012, 08:32 PM
In my experience, the reason that one would commit suicide is also the
reason not to. That is, the detachment from the world, from the knowledge,
the dark night, the cloud of unknowing... all these confusing things that
make us feel we can't relate to the world anymore, loss of purpose...
losing everything that made us feel human also loses belief in suicide
as an answer. I don't know why some make it through and some don't.
I guess they didn't quite get far enough to be detached.
Suicide is depression, isolation - the separate self/thinker/tonal.
One learns to watch this mind, to observe it, not to identify with it.
If you do that, you are your own "hotline" and you have a chance to live.
If you don't do that, who can save you? Who will you believe over your
own identification with depression? Maybe I do know why some make it
through and some don't - perhaps that's it. Eckhart Tolle became the watcher,
realising there were two of him - "I can't live with myself any longer."
Byron Katie spent 10 years with her depression and contemplating suicide
before her "awakening". How did she survive that long?

There's a story about a man who prayed everyday for god to not let lightning
strike his house and burn it down. Of course lightning didn't hit his house and he
felt his prayers were successful and his relationship with god was good, until one
day lightning did eventually strike his house. He thought he must have done something
to lose god's favor, etc...
Anyway, my point is, is it really going to be the hotline that helps people, or is it just
a matter of people who will help themselves. Eventually, there will be someone who
can't be helped, who won't accept it. Isn't this what's going on with or without the hotline?
There are hotlines all over the world, and still, according to international statistics, over
1 million people die by suicide each year. If people want help they find it. If they don't,
they commit suicide.
I can't imagine there is a difference between alchemists suicide and any other suicide.
Belief in our thinking is the cause of all suicides.
Belief in our thinking is also the cause of wanting to prevent suicides.

I do not mean to discourage anyone.
This is just my 2 cents, what I think is a voice of reason.
Of course if a friend or a stranger approached me for help, I would give it.
But I won't go seeking, and finding what I seek, and imagining I am making a difference.

I say these things, instead of remaining silent, because you will need a lot of detachment
to do this work. What if someone you are trying to help kills themselves? And now
you are depressed. "What did I do wrong?" "What more could I have done?"
"What did or didn't I say?" Guilt, blame, depression... There are suicides that result from guilt
over other suicides - "I raised my children poorly", "I wasn't there for them", "It's my fault they are gone"....

It's just confusing to me - if you do this, you need great detachment.
If you have great detachment, I don't know why you would do this.
Suicide is just one more fact of life. If I invest in preventing this, what wouldn't
I invest in? Why not breast cancer? Rape? Ivory trade? Pesticides? Now you are so
busy you have no time to be. It is the same problem with divisive thought - if some
thoughts are to be promoted, and others to be discouraged, it never ends. One just
takes thought off the table completely, but then there are no causes to fight.

That's where I am. You probably anticipated as much. :)
If I can help or you want my perspective, I am here for you,
for anyone that asks me. But I really don't have anything that can
be transmitted, that isn't already in front of everyone's eyes.
I have the same answer for every question - why do you believe X is important?
We lose some to suicide, some to disease, some to old age, some to drunk drivers...
in the end we lose them all to something. This cannot be prevented. Maybe you can
do something with yourself that makes you able to find these people in the afterlife
and prolong a relationship. Maybe. If that's a maybe, how much less of a chance
can you teach/help others to be permanent? What is the purpose of prolonging a
relative/temporal life until they die by some other means?

Love solomon

BTW - if I am in a trap, feel free to help me see it. :)

Nibiru
05-05-2012, 08:41 PM
This is an honorable thing you're offering to do, thanks Salazius!! I know I still lack experience, but I would be willing to help in anyway I could. I could at least offer the support of someone who's experienced the fear that these processes can involve.



Yes it's less suicidal. It can be socially suicidal (job, relationships, etc dying slowly but surely) ...

I feel bored and weary when in white. And with a great level of black humour (paradoxically ..) but it can makes you cruel in a sense since I feel a kind of emotionnal latence/insensibility.

It's also a moment of revolution, limits are reached and you says "I don't care about limits", "F*** the rules !" etc ...
Kind of teenager crisis. Very Uranian in a sense.

I have to wonder if this(white) is what has been wrong with me lately. My girlfriend and a few close friends have been accusing me of being numb and detached lately. They claim that I'm off in my own little world and don't seem to care about anything..

solomon levi
05-05-2012, 09:01 PM
I have to wonder if this(white) is what has been wrong with me lately. My girlfriend and a few close friends have been accusing me of being numb and detached lately. They claim that I'm off in my own little world and don't seem to care about anything..

Hi Nibiru.
Do you try to tell them about what is happening to you, the different perspectives you see?
I often worried about "infecting" people with non-ordinary views that may begin to disintegrate
their mind/belief/certainty.
But if we don't talk, we isolate ourselves anyway, thus becoming more "numb and detached".
It's a tough decision. In my experience, even if people love you, it doesn't help them see or
understand where you're coming from. I don't know if this alienation can be prevented. Of course,
who/what is telling me that it should be prevented?

I really don't know that I should talk to you. Maybe you have a chance to go back?
Would you want to go back? This is an important question for you to answer for yourself.
Answering confidently will prevent much future pain/confusion/regret/looking back.

I wish I had someone to tell me that years ago.
It took me a couple years to get over my girlfriend and stop looking back.
Maybe I should reconsider my view on the hotline. :)

Andro
05-05-2012, 09:10 PM
There is a sort of paradox here (for me).

I don't see it as trying to 'prevent' anything. I don't think anything can be 'prevented', or needs to be 'prevented'.

I am suggesting a Voice. A Mirror. A Point of view. And only if asked. ONLY.

I would not call it 'Help' or 'Prevention'.

And I think one can both 'do' and 'be detached' at the same time.
__________________________________________________ _____________________

PS: One could look at it as what Robert Monroe called "Introducing a Variable".

Seth-Ra
05-05-2012, 09:16 PM
We never can show anything that isnt already there/seen - all we do is point it out; put focus on it. :)





~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
05-05-2012, 09:39 PM
There is a sort of paradox here (for me).

I don't see it as trying to 'prevent' anything. I don't think anything can be 'prevented', or needs to be 'prevented'.

I am suggesting a Voice. A Mirror. A Point of view. And only if asked. ONLY.

I would not call it 'Help' or 'Prevention'.

And I think one can both 'do' and 'be detached' at the same time.

Yes, but you're a rare bird. :)
Most do not do and be detached.
A hotline of detached beings not trying to prevent anything...
I have nothing to say against that. :)

Of course the paradox is, I am not against anything.
Just sharing my understanding.
I did do that to prevent future pain though.
But I'm not attached to preventing future pain. :)

Awani
05-05-2012, 10:02 PM
My girlfriend and a few close friends have been accusing me of being numb and detached lately. They claim that I'm off in my own little world and don't seem to care about anything..

Same here... perhaps not everyone are introvert... there is nothing wrong with this, while you are off in your world "they" are off in theirs. Sometimes when we care too much we can seem to care not at all. All forms of alienation can be paradoxical. What is important, I think, is to not sell out just to make others happy.

:cool:

Nibiru
05-05-2012, 10:04 PM
Hi Nibiru.
Do you try to tell them about what is happening to you, the different perspectives you see?
I often worried about "infecting" people with non-ordinary views that may begin to disintegrate
their mind/belief/certainty.
Yes they know what I've been going through, and I do fear that I have also infected those that are close to me. Lately I've been keeping my feelings/realizations/understandings to myself for this very reason.



I really don't know that I should talk to you. Maybe you have a chance to go back?
Would you want to go back? This is an important question for you to answer for yourself.
Answering confidently will prevent much future pain/confusion/regret/looking back.


http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/16/98/72/10/red_pi10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=274&u=16987210)

A purple pill would be nice :)
But in a world of duality, I think I'll go with:
http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/16/98/72/10/red_pi11.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=275&u=16987210)

Thank you for offering the choice :)
Oh, and you had already been indirectly talking to me/us through your public posts before we ever became personally acquainted :) :)

Nibiru
05-05-2012, 10:06 PM
Same here... perhaps not everyone are introvert... there is nothing wrong with this, while you are off in your world "they" are off in theirs. Sometimes when we care too much we can seem to care not at all. All forms of alienation can be paradoxical. What is important, I think, is to not sell out just to make others happy.

:cool:
Thanks for the advice Dev :)

Awani
05-05-2012, 10:22 PM
Having worked with the Red Cross I know some simple techniques when talking to a suicidal person on the telephone. For example never say the following: Why do you want to kill yourself?

In fact the best thing to do is to say: Go on (keep speaking) and I understand.

:cool:

Seth-Ra
05-05-2012, 11:52 PM
Having worked with the Red Cross I know some simple techniques when talking to a suicidal person on the telephone. For example never say the following: Why do you want to kill yourself?

In fact the best thing to do is to say: Go on (keep speaking) and I understand.

:cool:

Lol, the funny thing to me, is ive had some friends and an ex that were like that, and asking them the "Why do you want to kill yourself?" is how i operated. XD Id listen to them "let out" their problems, then logically minimize them, showing they arent such a big deal.
So far, they live. lol

But yeah, thought that was interesting - a 180 opposite, working. This brings me to Nibiru...

A purple pill would be nice :)

We have that. :D Its what me and SL have been discussing in other threads. ;) lol


I dont know how much such a "hotline" would do, but getting the community to speak with itself is a good idea regardless, imo. I would volunteer, but i only have a month left before i go poof for a few months. lol
I will happily contribute what i can to a thread on the matter before then though (what Salazius and Androgynus mentioned earlier). :)




~Seth-Ra

Awani
05-06-2012, 12:07 AM
Actually my advice was meant if you speaking to someone you don't know... I am sure when you are speaking to a friend or relative you can be more direct with your questions. The advice I gave are actual guidelines from Red Cross suicide hotlines (where you speak to strangers).

:cool:

Seth-Ra
05-06-2012, 01:56 AM
Actually my advice was meant if you speaking to someone you don't know... I am sure when you are speaking to a friend or relative you can be more direct with your questions. The advice I gave are actual guidelines from Red Cross suicide hotlines (where you speak to strangers).

:cool:

Oh, of course - i was not meaning to sound discrediting to what you said or anything. I simply found it humorous as to the opposite ways to approach it. :)
I can certainly see why that would be the standard model for dealing with strangers, and in the end, its all about getting them to talk it out and work their own self through the problem.



~Seth-Ra

Salazius
05-06-2012, 08:12 AM
Thanks Nibiru and Seth Ra for your possible help.

It seems to bring a lot of questions and ideas. And it's great. By the way I still believe that having a ear to help you from time to time, when you ask for it, can be a good thing.

We know that a black, with an Alchemical work, will last at least in the wet path, approx 50 days. It's not a 10 years deal.

solomon levi
05-06-2012, 08:34 AM
We know that a black, with an Alchemical work, will last at least in the wet path, approx 50 days. It's not a 10 years deal.

I don't know what this means.
Suicide has a wet and dry path?
And a time period?
Alchemy black is not like human suicide.
Suicide is not putrefaction.

Andro
05-06-2012, 08:41 AM
This is not strictly about suicide, but about the internal Black Stage (which may often involve suicidal tendencies).

solomon levi
05-06-2012, 08:47 AM
This is not strictly about suicide, but about the internal Black Stage (which may often involve suicidal tendencies).

Okay. Then who has had a black phase of 50 days?
Mine was much longer. I don't get it. I've never heard of such a short depression period.
Not one that changes lives. This may fit the laboratory, but not humans.

Andro
05-06-2012, 09:03 AM
I've never heard of such a short depression period.
Not one that changes lives. This may fit the laboratory, but not humans.

Intensity x Duration = Effect :)

I personally agree that this period can not apply to people in a formula-type fashion.

My own 'peak' lasted around two months (December 2000 - January 2001), since the moment I lost all sense of identity until I received a certain unexpected phone call.

But that was just the peak of it. The actual phase was much longer, if we include the fade-in and and the fade-out.

Some can even remain 'stuck' at this stage. Enough 'juice' to make the putrefaction, but not enough to generate a new evolution/generation (green), and so forth.

solomon levi
05-06-2012, 09:49 AM
I guess alchemically, one would have to possess the equivalent of the
prima materia to start the black stage, in which case 50 days sounds
plausible - the peak.
This could also be intensity - maybe one prima experience doesn't start
the putrefaction, not significantly. But 10 experiences...

horticult
05-06-2012, 12:09 PM
would someone be so kind, & provide some quotes from alchemy classics, about that "black night"?
that "important" theme should be almost leitmotiv there...

Salazius
05-06-2012, 05:59 PM
About the 50 days ... it's the phase of the Black in a wet way (approx).

Yes it's longuer generally, but then you can go to see a psychotherapist if it's NOT related to you actual lab work.

Horticult, I never read "psychological" cycles in classics of Alchemy.
Maybe Bacon saying that if one is not prepared the black can do great harm, but where's this sentence ? I don't remember.

horticult
05-06-2012, 08:56 PM
are gardeners linked with plants?
are butchers linked with animals?
are alchemists linked with phials?

bs & not alchemy

so with these "problems" read their "classics": Dark Night of the Soul by Saint John of the Cross, Parsons, abyss...

Salazius
05-06-2012, 10:15 PM
If you are psychic yes.

If you have the sensibility of a granit rock, then no.

Seth-Ra
05-06-2012, 10:57 PM
What is linear time to the state of being and experience, really?

I have no exact dates of any of my phases - they sound "shorter" compared to what yall are saying (but im not great at keeping a time-chart/calendar either so maybe not), but who can judge such a thing on such a limited scale? It only takes one moment to be cast into the Black, and another moment to determine how you pass through it; whether death or continuance here.
______

Horticult,

are gardeners linked with plants?
are butchers linked with animals?
are alchemists linked with phials?

Since my dad, my mother, my grandmother, my brother and myself have all done gardening to various degrees, i can very assuredly answer "yes" to being linked with the plants.

As a martial artist that prefers a blade, and one who likes to cook, and one that has worked heavily with the animal kingdom, again the answer is "yes" to being linked with the subject animal/target.

Yes, we do link ourselves with the vessels we do the work in - after all, you cannot fill an already full cup, same with a flask or vial, or mind/body/soul. What we fill it with, we do so because its speaking to us at that moment to work with it - we resonate with it on some level. Plenty of works that have been shown by myself and other members speaks on these sorts of things and demonstrates it.

But, as Salazius so correctly worded it:

If you have the sensibility of a granit rock, then no.

Though, that might be somewhat unfair to granite. ;)



~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
05-07-2012, 07:31 AM
"Yes it's longuer generally, but then you can go to see a psychotherapist if it's NOT related to you actual lab work."

I have no way of knowing/measuring this - what was related to my lab work and what wasn't.
How to isolate lab work from life?
My lab work never made me consider suicide.
The mind/thinking does that.
My lab work only opened me up to see more, removed barriers of perception.
This doesn't cause depression or suicidal tendencies.
The reaction of the mind to those perceptions may cause them.
To me, it doesn't matter how you get opened up - lab work, bump on the head,
life, spiritual practices... same result - you see more.
In any of these circumstances, one must fortify the mind to not destroy itself or
the body.

How do you see it differently?
Why say so little?

Salazius
05-07-2012, 11:10 AM
Well, when you provoque such state in yourself, you must be aware of your inner changes and seeing that the changes are linked with the states of the matter. I clearly had crows in dreams when I had putrefactions, and peacocks when it turned green, etc ...

Now, for this, I'm aware that one must be able to probably have a certain level. Able to make a coction, a putrefaction ... etc.

Emotions, mind, ego ... yes and ? If there is a deep sadness and a despair, will you say to the person "that's just your mind, don't worry" ... Yes we know it is. We have to accept. And the process will lead to that. Surrender.

There's an end to pain, it drinking the cup to the bottom - "fundo blanco". There's an end to the dark tunnel, but some are too weak to go all the way through, some need a hand.

Not a lot of persons will ask for such help IMO. Due to the lack of real work in the Alchemical field.

horticult
05-07-2012, 11:56 AM
What is linear time to the state of being and experience, really?

I have no exact dates of any of my phases - they sound "shorter" compared to what yall are saying (but im not great at keeping a time-chart/calendar either so maybe not), but who can judge such a thing on such a limited scale? It only takes one moment to be cast into the Black, and another moment to determine how you pass through it; whether death or continuance here.
______

Horticult,


Since my dad, my mother, my grandmother, my brother and myself have all done gardening to various degrees, i can very assuredly answer "yes" to being linked with the plants.

As a martial artist that prefers a blade, and one who likes to cook, and one that has worked heavily with the animal kingdom, again the answer is "yes" to being linked with the subject animal/target.

Yes, we do link ourselves with the vessels we do the work in - after all, you cannot fill an already full cup, same with a flask or vial, or mind/body/soul. What we fill it with, we do so because its speaking to us at that moment to work with it - we resonate with it on some level. Plenty of works that have been shown by myself and other members speaks on these sorts of things and demonstrates it.

But, as Salazius so correctly worded it:


Though, that might be somewhat unfair to granite. ;)



~Seth-Ra

good luck with your observation of nature
& biased posts

yes, i am going to be hard as stone ;-)

chrysopoeia
05-07-2012, 02:34 PM
Hello,

I would be interested to read about people's experiences with psychotherapists after the topic of alchemy was mentioned and what their psychotherapist's reaction was. Does anyone have any experience they could share? I would imagine that a Jungian Psychotherapist would be well-versed in the symbolism behind alchemy from a psychological point of view... but perhaps not so many have direct experience of it.

Salazius
05-07-2012, 04:29 PM
"Doctor I feel so depressed because I've put some iron rusting in my alkahest ..." :)
"Tell me about your childhood" ...


LOL

Seth-Ra
05-07-2012, 05:04 PM
good luck with your observation of nature
& biased posts

yes, i am going to be hard as stone ;-)


Lol, i didnt realize answering your questions with experience and examples (which are not just my own) = biased. :rolleyes:

Think and believe whatever you want; by all means, be as unreceptive and vulgar as a leaden rock. ;)

Good luck with your non-learning. :)

After all, that is your choice to make. :cool:




~Seth-Ra

Nibiru
05-07-2012, 05:22 PM
I clearly had crows in dreams when I had putrefactions, and peacocks when it turned green, etc ...

This explains alot, thanks for pointing it out. Around November to December I felt like crows/ravens were following me, and this was at the point that I was very paranoid so it was quite frightening. I wasn't seeing them in my dreams, they were actually everywhere I went. I thought I was marked for death, it's relieving to know that it may of only been the work in my flask that had been 'marked'.

Then right around the time that I went on my vacation cruise a couple months ago, I began to see peacocks and peacock symbolism everywhere. I had no idea what it could of been linked to at the time, so I assumed it was 'Illuminati" symbolism and once again became paranoid. It's good to know that these frightening signs(to me) were actually positive sign-posts..

horticult
05-07-2012, 10:58 PM
Lol, i didnt realize answering your questions with experience and examples (which are not just my own) = biased. :rolleyes:

Think and believe whatever you want; by all means, be as unreceptive and vulgar as a leaden rock. ;)

Good luck with your non-learning. :)

After all, that is your choice to make. :cool:




~Seth-Ra

gardeners resurrected with plants
butchers dying with cattle

but, wait, maybe in america

MarkostheGnostic
05-08-2012, 01:09 AM
Hi,

We recently had several loss/suicides in the French Alchemical world. I had an idea in order to avoid this. I want to create a hotline for Alchemists in distress. Maybe via @mails, and skype.

I also had a close friend trying to comit suicide a year ago. 5 boxes of sleeping meds. Fortunately he did an ingestion of gold elixir some time before this phase. It helped him to avoid death, even if the lethal ratio was in his blood.

Generally we have a little group of friends with who we share, sometime we don't really want to bother them with the stages we are going through, and no family, no relative can hear the pain inside. Sometime no one can understand us since WE triggered the "death phase/rotting stage"/Black Phase. Such a painful time of internal crisis ...

But I need volunteers for such enterprise.

I need experience people, confronted to such phase, and by the way, Alchemists themselve. With some knowledge of the inner cycle (black, green, white, and red).

Do you think it is a good idea ? Who is willing to help ?

Of course, confidentiality is one of the important basis of the help proposed.

Salazius

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can also post here ideas about how you overcome sadness, procrastrination, depression, guilt, anger, no will to live ...

I have been a crisis intervention counselor in the USA's 4th largest school system for the last 26 years. I have also joined a telephone counseling service that did not work very well at all. A client got 2-3 free minutes on an 800 number, then you had to disconnect and have him/her call back on a paid 900 number. This would clearly be unethical on a crisis intervention line! We took 3 or 4 hour blocks during which we received phone calls. Mine was something like 7:00 PM EST to 11:00 PM EST. We all had to be licensed in a mental health discipline, and we all had to have malpractice insurance. I think that those of you who so readily volunteered have allowed your hearts to over-rule your heads in this matter. Holding out a telecommunication 'shingle,' means that one is assuming a great ethical and legal responsibility. There is what is called 'distance counseling,' and it is now becoming regulated by specialty certifications.

Someone who is off his or her medications, for example, and having a manic episode, or someone who, spontaneously, substance-induced, or in some other manner suffers a psychotic break, needs to be handled by an experienced clinician. The language that I employ in crisis intervention is not going to be technical. In fact, it becomes a big problem if one attempts to adopt the language of someone undergoing a psychotic break, and in his/her delusion (again, for example) is convinced by being demon obsessed/possessed. One needs a language that can encompass the experience without being part of the idiom. Pretending to believe the sufferer is only going to increase the paranoia and the counselor will become part of the psychotic's delusion instead of being perceived as a 'lifeguard' trying to rescue a person drowning from the unconscious. Somebody whose psyche becomes a Harry Potter type scenario, who is blathering about dark entities come to steal their Philosopher's Stone, is not a scenario that a crisis counselor is going to enter into. As Peter Boyle as character Jack McDermott warned in the movie 'The Dream Team,' "Stay out of my psychosis."

So, the bottom line is that there is a greater chance of worsening someone's crisis instead of helping them through it, and be subject to possible prosecution for claiming expertise in a field which is licensed due to the seriousness of the intervention. Without calling appropriate 911 agencies (which is next to impossible without sophisticated phone equipment with tracing capabilities), one might be cited with all manner of criminal charges, like 'callous indifference,' 'practicing medicine/psychology/counseling without a license,' when the grieving family of the completed suicide finds out through the authorities who their family member was talking to. If someone dies, mental health professionals are charged, and even if not convicted, then they're sued in civil court. I have a $5,000,000 insurance policy in effect for legal fees, which needs to be renewed in a couple of months - just in case this thing comes MY way. Sound scary? It better! It's serious fu*king business. So, if you're asking me, I do not want to put myself out there under very uncontrolled conditions, and attempt to help someone in dire need with my hands tied by a lack of communication with emergency personnel.

Seth-Ra
05-08-2012, 01:15 AM
maybe in america

Yep, totally. :)




~Seth-Ra

MarkostheGnostic
05-08-2012, 01:22 AM
Yep, totally. :)




~Seth-Ra

No doubt, the same thing holds true in the European countries as well, where there are corresponding types of licensure and certification. When people go 'jousting at windmills' like Don Quixote, at fire-breathing dragons, you don't offer them a fire extinguisher if you want to help them.

Seth-Ra
05-08-2012, 01:36 AM
So, the bottom line is that there is a greater chance of worsening someone's crisis instead of helping them through it, and be subject to possible prosecution for claiming expertise in a field which is licensed due to the seriousness of the intervention. Without calling appropriate 911 agencies (which is next to impossible without sophisticated phone equipment with tracing capabilities), one might be cited with all manner of criminal charges, like 'callous indifference,' 'practicing medicine/psychology/counseling without a license,' when the grieving family of the completed suicide finds out through the authorities who their family member was talking to. If someone dies, mental health professionals are charged, and even if not convicted, then they're sued in civil court. I have a $5,000,000 insurance policy in effect for legal fees, which needs to be renewed in a couple of months - just in case this thing comes MY way. Sound scary? It better! It's serious fu*king business. So, if you're asking me, I do not want to put myself out there under very uncontrolled conditions, and attempt to help someone in dire need with my hands tied by a lack of communication with emergency personnel.

You make a very valid point. My family has cautioned me also, when helping people with alchemical medicines.

A thread devoted to discussing and sharing accounts of such things, would probably be best, something you could hand to someone (the link to it) as well as things pointing them towards "proper" help.

Markos, would you say that would be within reason, and not put anyone "in the line of fire" as it were?


Side-note, i dont quite follow the:

No doubt, the same thing holds true in the European countries as well, where there are corresponding types of licensure and certification. When people go 'jousting at windmills' like Don Quixote, at fire-breathing dragons, you don't offer them a fire extinguisher if you want to help them.

...in reference to my response to Horticult - elaborate?




~Seth-Ra

Nibiru
05-08-2012, 03:12 AM
But yeah, thought that was interesting - a 180 opposite, working. This brings me to Nibiru...

A purple pill would be nice :)

We have that. :D Its what me and SL have been discussing in other threads. ;) lol


Thanks Seth-Ra I'm reading/contemplating it now..

MarkostheGnostic
05-08-2012, 04:01 AM
Side-note, i dont quite follow the:
No doubt, the same thing holds true in the European countries as well, where there are corresponding types of licensure and certification. When people go 'jousting at windmills' like Don Quixote, at fire-breathing dragons, you don't offer them a fire extinguisher if you want to help them.
...in reference to my response to Horticult - elaborate?

One does not buy into the mental constructs of the psychotic, even if you discern terms in his ramblings that you yourself recognize. One does not know for certain that the meanings are the same, and the psychotic is unable to conduct a rational dialogue at the time of crisis. I have been in the presence of dying people, like my own paternal grandmother, who was asking for fabric and scissors shortly before she died. My emotional, and not-too-discerning father was trying to ask her why, what kind of fabric, etc. He was taking her ramblings at face value and could not see her absurd vocalizations as part of her rapid disintegration. The same with the elaborate constructs of psychotic thinking. There are connections being made which have no actual basis in reality, and one does well to observe carefully, but not attempt to enter into the psychotic's frame of reference.

Synchronicity is not the same thing as paranoid ideation which creatively but erroneously connects things which are not connected in a truly intelligible way. When the psychotic's own being is an integral part of the delusion, 'ideas of reference' prevail, as does 'grandiosity,' ('delusions of grandeur'). Even if 'they are after me,' is the prevailing feeling, there is grandiosity present, making one so important that, 'they are all after ME.' Trans-rational is NOT pre-rational. Non-rational is not equivalent to irrational. I am sympathetic with anyone who has gone mad. I have tasted of it. I can discern the difference between the transrational and the irrational. The ego usually has a prominent place in the latter.

"When a person goes mad, a profound transposition of his position in relation to all domains of being occurs. His center of experience moves from ego to Self. Mundane time becomes merely anecdotal, only the eternal matters. The madman is, however, confused. He muddles ego with Self, inner with outer, natural and supernatural ... Nevertheless, he often can be to us, even through his profound wretchedness and disintegration, the hierophant of the sacred."
- R. D. Laing

Salazius
05-08-2012, 08:50 AM
I have been a crisis intervention counselor in the USA's 4th largest school system for the last 26 years. I have also joined a telephone counseling service that did not work very well at all. A client got 2-3 free minutes on an 800 number, then you had to disconnect and have him/her call back on a paid 900 number. This would clearly be unethical on a crisis intervention line! We took 3 or 4 hour blocks during which we received phone calls. Mine was something like 7:00 PM EST to 11:00 PM EST. We all had to be licensed in a mental health discipline, and we all had to have malpractice insurance. I think that those of you who so readily volunteered have allowed your hearts to over-rule your heads in this matter. Holding out a telecommunication 'shingle,' means that one is assuming a great ethical and legal responsibility. There is what is called 'distance counseling,' and it is now becoming regulated by specialty certifications.

Someone who is off his or her medications, for example, and having a manic episode, or someone who, spontaneously, substance-induced, or in some other manner suffers a psychotic break, needs to be handled by an experienced clinician. The language that I employ in crisis intervention is not going to be technical. In fact, it becomes a big problem if one attempts to adopt the language of someone undergoing a psychotic break, and in his/her delusion (again, for example) is convinced by being demon obsessed/possessed. One needs a language that can encompass the experience without being part of the idiom. Pretending to believe the sufferer is only going to increase the paranoia and the counselor will become part of the psychotic's delusion instead of being perceived as a 'lifeguard' trying to rescue a person drowning from the unconscious. Somebody whose psyche becomes a Harry Potter type scenario, who is blathering about dark entities come to steal their Philosopher's Stone, is not a scenario that a crisis counselor is going to enter into. As Peter Boyle as character Jack McDermott warned in the movie 'The Dream Team,' "Stay out of my psychosis."

So, the bottom line is that there is a greater chance of worsening someone's crisis instead of helping them through it, and be subject to possible prosecution for claiming expertise in a field which is licensed due to the seriousness of the intervention. Without calling appropriate 911 agencies (which is next to impossible without sophisticated phone equipment with tracing capabilities), one might be cited with all manner of criminal charges, like 'callous indifference,' 'practicing medicine/psychology/counseling without a license,' when the grieving family of the completed suicide finds out through the authorities who their family member was talking to. If someone dies, mental health professionals are charged, and even if not convicted, then they're sued in civil court. I have a $5,000,000 insurance policy in effect for legal fees, which needs to be renewed in a couple of months - just in case this thing comes MY way. Sound scary? It better! It's serious fu*king business. So, if you're asking me, I do not want to put myself out there under very uncontrolled conditions, and attempt to help someone in dire need with my hands tied by a lack of communication with emergency personnel.

Ok, thanks !
This is making me thinking about aborting my project.

chrysopoeia
05-08-2012, 01:05 PM
"Doctor I feel so depressed because I've put some iron rusting in my alkahest ..."
"Tell me about your childhood" ...
LOL

Salazius, LOL... but now seriously, it may have nothing to do with depression. People should know that alchemy is not child's play and that they can create some quite serious problems. They can be reflected in the hypnagogic state and furthermore in their dreams. They may have 'murmuring' which has not much to do with their emotional state and does not necessarily have to have its source in emotional experience but rather a disturbance to the workings of their body. It does not have to be a permanent situation, however. Things may change... even without them doing ANYTHING, just because the quality of the time changes. Everything is connected... the body, the mind, the inside and the outside, the macrocosm, the microcosm... so they may be lucky and experience healing without having done anything, just waited (bravely). If this happens, they should note the exact date/time and examine it. However, they may be lucky and experience healing in a different way. In view of MarkostheGnostic's post, I'm just trying to offer a little hope to those who have made some kind of mistake but I am not a trained medical professional so people should not take my word for it.

horticult
05-08-2012, 01:56 PM
imho the main problem is big frustration - spent/lost years with "alchemy", $, etc... ... & result = 0.


/0 is a better case, could be -500 ;-) /

Nibiru
05-08-2012, 04:49 PM
If one were only seeking gold through alchemy, I would expect you to become frustrated and see no 'progress' in your work. This form of frustration/depression would seem to come from your own perceived failure. The problems Salazius is speaking of are the result of quite the opposite..

Andro
05-08-2012, 05:14 PM
This form of frustration/depression would seem to come from your own perceived failure.

Indeed, this is not what this thread is addressing (failure-related frustration, etc...).


The problems Salazius is speaking of are the result of quite the opposite...

Yes, these are the problems that can arise from starting to be successful (to various degrees) in this Art.

We (Myself & Friends) are personally aware of a few particular cases that fit exactly into this description, but those particularities are not the concern of the general forum.

We are 'tested' at every step of the way.

Salazius
05-10-2012, 11:12 AM
Yes, these are the problems that can arise from starting to be successful (to various degrees) in this Art.

We are 'tested' at every step of the way.

Indeed we are tested. All along the way.

Starting to be successful can be very scary. You can develop a kind of reluctance to work in the Lab.

solomon levi
05-12-2012, 02:18 PM
Nibiru said:
"A purple pill would be nice"

Seth-Ra said:
"We have that. Its what me and SL have been discussing in other threads. lol"


Personally, I don't agree with the purple pill.
Real change requires full commitment IMO (I don't think it is my opinion).
There's a lot of quotes from various authors I could provide, but I'll just summarize
it by saying, if we think we are already awake, who will try to wake up? If we see
that we are asleep/insane/in prison, who will not do everything in their power to
remedy this?

Nibiru
05-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Nibiru said:
"A purple pill would be nice"

Seth-Ra said:
"We have that. Its what me and SL have been discussing in other threads. lol"


Personally, I don't agree with the purple pill.
Real change requires full commitment IMO (I don't think it is my opinion).
There's a lot of quotes from various authors I could provide, but I'll just summarize
it by saying, if we think we are already awake, who will try to wake up? If we see
that we are asleep/insane/in prison, who will not do everything in their power to
remedy this?

This is why I chose the Red Pill :)
If I can't traverse between the two possibilities/realities/worlds, then I want to experience the 'truth'..

Seth-Ra
05-13-2012, 05:51 AM
To stick with the Matrix theme, its a control system within a control system - a program within a program. You "wake up" from one, to discover another. There is no end to this. Its the same concept as God being infinite - He/It is smaller than the smallest particle we can think of/observe at the moment, and He/It is larger than the largest object or amount of space we can discover/observe - because anywhere we are, He/It is, and is still outside of that also.

To be simultaneously awake and asleep, is to be able to simultaneously make the Fixed Volatile, and the Volatile Fixed, to do everything, and nothing. To dream the waking experience, and experience the waking dream. If one chooses only Red or only Blue, they choose a dual-loop, rather than the whole and one, united even when different/apart.

But i realize i may not be able to truly illustrate/illuminate this - so i'll leave it be. :)



~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
05-13-2012, 09:46 AM
... :) ...

Salazius
05-13-2012, 04:15 PM
Ok ... so the project is aborted.

The people at this level will probably find each other. So it's actually how alchemy works.

End of topic.

Thank you.

solomon levi
05-14-2012, 04:46 PM
I often worried about "infecting" people with non-ordinary views that may begin to disintegrate
their mind/belief/certainty.


The more I love and accept myself and the "path" that has been laid
before me, the less reluctant I am to express myself, my "non-ordinariness".
Probably everyone understood that my use of the word "infecting" does not
imply that this is some kind of disease or a bad thing... I only meant that I have
observed the contagious nature of direct perception, pure reason... it's ability to
"strike a nerve" or place an irritating grain of sand in an oyster.

Anyway, I think we should not be afraid to wreak havoc, to be free agents, to
express like a force of nature, to allow Siva to manifest...
I am not suggesting helter-skelter.
I am not suggesting unawareness of consequences (or unawareness of anything).
I am not suggesting imbalance.

What am I suggesting?
I guess something between afraid to express/affect change and absolute chaos. :)

I'm just observing that we are the agents of change and shouldn't stifle that.
Of course, the decision is always a personal one.
Some will express this violently, others with patient whispers.
Some will plead, "Take this cup from me!"
Others will say, "Thy will be done."

And some will confuse their psychosis with God's will.
The true and the false have always been obfuscated.
S/he who climbs above the clouds will see.

I wish you all strength, courage and wisdom through your transformations.

Bel Matina
10-20-2012, 01:27 PM
I don't have time to read this entire thread right now, but I would be happy to be available for this.

If there's anything in particular I need to do please let me know. I'll read the rest of the thread later.

For myself, I was struggling with suicidal ideation when I began the work, and it seemed to me at the time that a large part of what kept me from more actively trying was the possibility of reincarnation and repeating the years of suffering before realizing my situation all over again. I recognized the need at that time for a 'spiritual' suicide, though it would be years before I could effect such a thing. In retrospect, having peers close to me in a similar place of opening the work was critical in those teenage years.

I find it difficult to work only through words and at such a distance, but I feel very moved to reach out to people in that place.

Andro
10-20-2012, 02:25 PM
I would be happy to be available for this.

I think we sort of abandoned the initiative. You can read the thread when you have some time...

Salazius was the one who came up with it in the first place, and he later said:


Ok ... so the project is aborted.

The people at this level will probably find each other. So it's actually how alchemy works.

End of topic.

Thank you.
_________________________________________


For myself, I was struggling with suicidal ideation when I began the work

What specific work are you referring to? Care to elaborate? Spiritual? Laboratory? Both? I can't recall you posting anything about laboratory work, so I'm curious...

A suicidal 'Black Phase' can of course be part of all sorts of initiations (alchemical, shamanic, etc...)

III
11-18-2012, 10:08 PM
Side-note, i dont quite follow the:
No doubt, the same thing holds true in the European countries as well, where there are corresponding types of licensure and certification. When people go 'jousting at windmills' like Don Quixote, at fire-breathing dragons, you don't offer them a fire extinguisher if you want to help them.
...in reference to my response to Horticult - elaborate?

One does not buy into the mental constructs of the psychotic, even if you discern terms in his ramblings that you yourself recognize. One does not know for certain that the meanings are the same, and the psychotic is unable to conduct a rational dialogue at the time of crisis. I have been in the presence of dying people, like my own paternal grandmother, who was asking for fabric and scissors shortly before she died. My emotional, and not-too-discerning father was trying to ask her why, what kind of fabric, etc. He was taking her ramblings at face value and could not see her absurd vocalizations as part of her rapid disintegration. The same with the elaborate constructs of psychotic thinking. There are connections being made which have no actual basis in reality, and one does well to observe carefully, but not attempt to enter into the psychotic's frame of reference.

Synchronicity is not the same thing as paranoid ideation which creatively but erroneously connects things which are not connected in a truly intelligible way. When the psychotic's own being is an integral part of the delusion, 'ideas of reference' prevail, as does 'grandiosity,' ('delusions of grandeur'). Even if 'they are after me,' is the prevailing feeling, there is grandiosity present, making one so important that, 'they are all after ME.' Trans-rational is NOT pre-rational. Non-rational is not equivalent to irrational. I am sympathetic with anyone who has gone mad. I have tasted of it. I can discern the difference between the transrational and the irrational. The ego usually has a prominent place in the latter.

"When a person goes mad, a profound transposition of his position in relation to all domains of being occurs. His center of experience moves from ego to Self. Mundane time becomes merely anecdotal, only the eternal matters. The madman is, however, confused. He muddles ego with Self, inner with outer, natural and supernatural ... Nevertheless, he often can be to us, even through his profound wretchedness and disintegration, the hierophant of the sacred."
- R. D. Laing

Hi Markos,

I worked quite intensively spiritually .with a young lady, who had exhausted the usual theraputic channels. Picture a "strangely complicated" case of DID according to her therapist of the time, a DID specialist. One of the complications is that one or more alters are psychotic.

Another complication is that she appeared to me to be a reincarnated alchemist who had made some serious mistakes. The therapist couldn't begin to imagine what the problem or a cause could be.

As a result of the "mistakes", she was totally terrified of LOVE, of the LIGHT or Kundalini or anything you might want to call it or various views of it.

When you come by somebody like this lady the results are very unpredictable or maybe completely predictable. One thing that becomes apparant over time is that when anybody gets close to actually helping her solve something she plays "52 pickup" so to speak and blows it all to hell. That has happened 100% of times that I know of. Be cautious is right. I'm saying this because suicide understanding, especially metaphysically, could probably be increased with a good thread on it. SOme of the things in this thread would be a decent start.

Ezalor
11-28-2012, 06:07 AM
End of topic.
I don't think so. If you want to help, there is something you can do without any of the legal (and other) nonsense. Look, here we have this thread, why not just using it - or make another - to let people talk about their personal feelings and frustration, get listening ears, and opinions? What could be better than talking about it with this community, reading each other's problems, experiences and suggestions?

As it has been pointed out, in the end, everyone is ultimately and solely responsible for their own "fate". You can't DO help. But, you can let people seek their answers for themselves. Wasn't that the original intention anyway?

No need for anything special. Just share. Share what you are through. Provide information, and by that, give a chance to people to find themselves what they need to find.

Probably, you should start with this:

Salazius, maybe it's time to publish a thread with a more detailed archetypal description of the main stages.

III
12-06-2012, 05:54 AM
I don't think so. If you want to help, there is something you can do without any of the legal (and other) nonsense. Look, here we have this thread, why not just using it - or make another - to let people talk about their personal feelings and frustration, get listening ears, and opinions? What could be better than talking about it with this community, reading each other's problems, experiences and suggestions?

As it has been pointed out, in the end, everyone is ultimately and solely responsible for their own "fate". You can't DO help. But, you can let people seek their answers for themselves. Wasn't that the original intention anyway?

No need for anything special. Just share. Share what you are through. Provide information, and by that, give a chance to people to find themselves what they need to find.

Probably, you should start with this:


Hi Ezalor,

I happen to agree. We do need to talk about this because we will run into it either in dealing with our own stuff or with others. Back in the early 70s, back when drug hotlines were still around and were bad acid trips, I volunteered to work Friday nights. The whole thing was run by a local psychologist. There were usually 4 or 5 of us on weekend evenings. By that time acid bad trips had faded and most of the calls we got were despondent girls, teens and 20s, talking suicide because their abusive boyfriends were leaving them and there were only 1 or 2 of us on weekend evenings.

In LIFE IN THE LABYRINTH E.J. Gold states that suicide is an automatic recurrance. I would add with damage. It''s a hell of a way to get stuck. Suicide is a dead end, an infinite loop until one can change enough to NOT suicide, and that is a tough one. The reason for the suicide is hidden under layer upon layer of additional damage typically, metaphysically speaking. And that cause, whatever it is, when uncovered, is unpredictable. As a suicide resulted it is likely that the problem hasn't been dealt with yet otherwise it wouldn't be coming up. It's groundhog day, again.

This isn't an answer to anything. Understanding suicide, especially metaphysically, is I think, very relevent to Alchemists. It is a way to get in bad trouble.

solomon levi
12-10-2012, 01:58 PM
(Directed to no one in particular and everyone in general)
Suicide isn't an answer/solution.
But neither are a million other things people do answers/solutions.
Why do people think suicide is special or especially bad?
It's a choice like anything. Who are we to judge?
We'd do the same thing in their shoes.
To say you wouldn't is to not be in their shoes.
People are always doing the best they can.
Suicide is one experience/choice/option among billions.
I know it's taboo to say so, but someone has to speak for homogeneity.

That said, rescuing people from suicide is also one of those billions of options. :)

I just want to suggest to all the arbitrariness of believing in a cause, or that
one cause is more important than another or more serious or more worth preventing.
We could prevent or aid kids who eat candy, or janitors who meditate, and it would
be equally valid. But why won't I find a website or help-line for janitors who meditate?
Because people haven't formed an opinion about it.

Where did our opinions on suicide come from? Why do we believe it should be prevented?
Is it our own fear of death that we're projecting? Or have we been sold a story by religions
who have motives? Have you really looked at it?

I know my views are not for everyone's ears, but i have to say/seed them in the potential.

solomon levi
12-10-2012, 05:45 PM
addendum: I do try to help people who are contemplating suicide.
I'm not saying don't help.
I'm not saying do or don't do anything.
Be yourself.

What I am offerring is freedom from beliefs.
It's not for everyone.
Timing is everything.

I post these radical views to balance all the predictable views...
to encourage freedom and options.
Nothing I say is right or true or better.
It all depends on resonance.
No one should try to be something they're not, unless you want to.
I am not responsible for anyone.
I'm just a voice.

I will write more about this in my re-introduction soon.
If you read this and think I'm saying "let people kill themselves, it doesn't matter"
then you are not hearing me.
Only a month ago I was talking to a girl who was threatening to kill herself
and trying to be as helpful in preventing that as I could.
How can I write what I wrote above and act differently? What a hypocrite!
If that's what you want to think, it doesn't bother me.
I have never claimed to be without an ego.
I have said the ego is not all that i am.
I have said the ego egos; you don't have to identify with it.
Anyway - I live a dual life, as alchemy teaches.
I have a body and a spirit.
Most of what i write is spirit perspective.
I assume you all know the body perspective well enough that I don't
have to write about it.

Anyway, I am aware that I contradict myself as well at times - I am aware
that people will see it that way. I can't help it. I can't prevent everyone
from seeing what they see. I go to great lengths to explain myself.
In the end, people will hear what they want and do what they want.
I assume no responsibility for you.
If you're looking for an excuse to kill yourself and find it in my words,
that is you looking for an excuse... if it wasn't my words you would find it elsewhere.

If you want to prevent people from killing themselves, be my guest. (hmm. interesting phrase)
Don't not do anything you want to do because i wrote something.
I think that is obvious. I don't think my words have this power to change anyone
who isn't already ready to change, anymore than someone could pick up an alchemy
book for the first time and understand it.
I don't believe that I prevent or cause anyone to do anything.
Still, I write this to perhaps put some balance to my "radical" views.

I'll write more in the re-introduction about the dual life - as above so below, as below so above.

SolX
12-10-2012, 10:45 PM
Aloha Salazius.

i realy am no one of importance. i do reconize the demonsturative effects of the dark side of life. been there done that. and now i am doing it again. i have learned enought to question causing ones death. however i would like to give my feelings as to an "Alchimist" and there woes and misgivings. an alchimist is not one individual learning about phisics, learning about the solor system, learning about magnetics, the alchimist is learning about all things. this individual has no place in culture to fit in. offten times an alchimist has few freinds. no one to lean on in times of needed support. an alchimist place is the preverbial "qusimotto in a bell tower yelling" "SANCTURARY".

your concept of providing a place for one to reach out to, is valid and needed.

i would suggest that you do not give up on the idea. also not every one out there is a suicide. some times we are told they are. i had a freind that suicided off a train. (they say) hes never been on a train before. the trains destination was 200 miles from his home, but what they did not count on is he would have had to drive 400 miles to get on the train that would have brought him back 200 miles. yet they say that he fell off the train. also he gave his freinds no word he was going on a journey.

what is a head shrinker going to do for me if i told him one day. hey doctor i was working with my rebus and i knew not to over purify it but i went to far and the 300 stiches are a result of my flask bursting and causing me great pain, unfortunatly the alkhiest also blew into the glass cuts on my face, and i can see a transmutation that has left me with no other opption but to die and start all over again on my next emination. evenmore so i lost 2 decades worth of the great works. i now feel as if my chi is disapating. 90% of what i say to the person would be inomprehinsable to them. instead of looking for solstace, the doctor is more then likely going to stick my suicidal self in a rubber room and compound the matter.

no. i like your approch. not for its elements of helping another but for the infosturcture that alchimist have little of. you could put into effect a useful tool. where others see this tool and expound upon it with other areas of interests in an student alchimists struggles as the explorer, the researcher, the answer bringer. were you to begin a thing like a hot line i would be a strong proponunt to expand the idea into a scanctuary retreat of sorts.

i seldom ask of others. but this time i would ask that you continue on with this concept. do not abort the idea.

III
12-11-2012, 03:52 AM
Considering that I have closely worked with perhaps a dozen persons in this life, done single invocation work with some hundreds of individuals, I have a very limited set of experience. Of the dozen I knew well, every one of them, me included had done suicide lots of times.

I know the "deal" on suicide as best I can from experience. Also, I was specifically questioned and warned about suicide before I got to that point in my life. I described that in the fall down the ski slope death experience. From experience I KNOW suicide doesn't work. It's a loop that gets one nowhere. I was there, for whatever it's worth, because of unbearable pain for which I was refused treatment and that went on for decades. So as far as I can see by experience including being warned, is that one recurrs in the same life over and over without memory and with damage until one manages to NOT suicide. In my opinion, that is not a desireable way of life.

So maybe thats why the work I'm offerred is with those who appear stuck in a suicide loop. I got out of such a loop, out of hell. Maybe it's just a common way to get stuck. I was shown the waking up in the hospital a quad with a hellish NDE if that ski accident had been a suicide instead of sliding along the snow to an easy stop, banged up from the fall but nothing more.

solomon levi
12-11-2012, 09:36 AM
Hi III.
It is the same with everything, is it not?
I've come back many times for jealousy. At least one of those ended up in a murder suicide.
But the fact that we come back means there was something.
Suicide is not a special something. We come back and repeat without learning and memory
for all kinds of reasons, depending on one's attachments and addictions.

From experience I know many, many things that don't work. There are thousands of ways
to imagine ourselves incomplete, and not one of them works. Suicide is not special.
Suicide is the result of a belief. If anyone wants to blame a "bad guy", it is belief/attachment/desire.

I am very grateful for my suicide in another life. I am better for it - for having a strong conviction
about what was acceptable and unacceptable and willing to kill and die for it. It was a valuable lesson.
I don't regret it one bit.
Some suicides may be different. Some people may kill themselves while trembling.
I did it with no fear at all. I am in awe of that ability - that strong conviction. Everyone could benefit from it.
How rarely are people so certain. It is why I am strong now and my own author(ity).
Why I don't need someone else to tell me what is what.
Every curse is a blessing waiting to be realised.

Oh - memory can be retained. I remember. I even met the girl who was my wife that I killed out of
suspicion/jealousy again in this life. I used to joke with her when we'd argue and say, "You're still
angry because I shot you." :)

solomon levi
12-11-2012, 10:27 AM
The idea that we should not do something because of consequences is silly to me.
All doing of the doer has consequences.
The consequence of avoiding anything is return until you don't avoid it.
This is why I have said, "addiction is what we need". It's the same idea as Jung and the shadow self -
"I'd rather be whole than good."

The religious dogma of not suiciding because of negative consequences is silly to me.
Even the Buddhist dogma of reincarnation, if one thinks it should be avoided, is silly.
As discussed in another thread, you're always "here".
The consequence of suicide is "here" - your consciousness.
You can't avoid your consciousness. Suicide or don't, you are still "here" - your consciousness.
You think not suiciding is less of a hell/"here" than wanting to suicide but avoiding it because of dogma
or what someone else might think of you, or guilt or fear or regret? It all sounds like hell to me.
So you want a better quality hell? A slightly improved degree of hell? Sounds silly to me.

Again, I'm not encouraging anyone to commit suicide. I'm just addressing the bullshit dogmas
and beliefs that surround this topic or any topic.
I love you - everyone of you. I encourage you to live fully and without images/beliefs.
To live presently. No matter what you do, you will still be "here" - your consciousness.
There's no avoiding it. So get to know eachother. :)

III
12-15-2012, 08:05 AM
Hi Solomon,

As discussed in another thread, you're always "here".

Quite right. "Here". Recurrance without choice to "here". Exactly. However, I was shown (by my future self as far as I can tell), that the path taken as a result of suicide is different than the path taken as a result of accident. I know others shown similar things. But then, that is a choice too. As I finally accepted "I would have done it differently if I knew then what I do now". Of course I would expect that just about everybody can say that at one tine or another. However, that can take a while to learn. Maybe it just took me way longer to learn.

You can't avoid your consciousness. Suicide or don't, you are still "here" - your consciousness. You think not suiciding is less of a hell/"here" than wanting to suicide but avoiding it because of dogma or what someone else might think of you, or guilt or fear or regret? It all sounds like hell to me.



I'm not trying to present any dogma. I don't believe in it (dogma in general). My best approximation of quantity of my suicides on that recent loop was 125,000 occurances. It was a long subjective "time" of subjective misery. I guess you could say that I'm a slow learner and stubborn as hell sometimes. Based on my summation of that experience is that suicide "doesn't work", at least not for my objectives. It didn't get me out of the miserable intractable pain situation. It took me a while to learn that instead, it made the situation worse. I'm not going to say "suicide is bad". It can be hard on friends and family. I will say that I have never found it an effective way to solve the problem at hand in my experience. In those people I end up working with it is a trap that keeps them stuck. It doesn't substitute for them actually solving their problems. It didn't substitute for solving the problem for me either. I'm here to evolve, without a doubt. And suicide doesn't further that.

From experience I know many, many things that don't work. There are thousands of ways to imagine ourselves incomplete, and not one of them works. Suicide is not special. Suicide is the result of a belief. If anyone wants to blame a "bad guy", it is belief/attachment/desire.


A man I worked with for about 5 years, felt obligated to follow every possible path through his life, living every possible variation, and then mourning each version of himself that doesn't make it through, that doesn't solve the maze as it were. That seemed unusual to me. Of ones zillions of possible versions only a few will make it. As both of us know all too well that there are far more things that don't work than do work.

Suicide, at best, just never works. Some unknown percentage get buried so deep in suicides and compounding results that they lose any probability of finding their way out without help.


I've come back many times for jealousy. At least one of those ended up in a murder suicide. But the fact that we come back means there was something.
Suicide is not a special something. We come back and repeat without learning and memory for all kinds of reasons, depending on one's attachments and addictions.


I would have done a murder-suicide if I had enough bullets. I was a rabbi hiding with my wife and children in a culvert in Nazi Germany or somewhere in the area. They were coming for us. I had a pistol and 5 bullets and killed my wife and children. I was captured and ended up in a death camp. I'm sure I have done just about everything many a time, in other lives and this one.


I am very grateful for my suicide in another life. I am better for it - for having a strong conviction about what was acceptable and unacceptable and willing to kill and die for it. It was a valuable lesson. I don't regret it one bit. Some suicides may be different. Some people may kill themselves while trembling. I did it with no fear at all. I am in awe of that ability - that strong conviction. Everyone could benefit from it. How rarely are people so certain. It is why I am strong now and my own author(ity). Why I don't need someone else to tell me what is what. Every curse is a blessing waiting to be realised.

Suicide can be very educational if it doen't result in a loop. Even a loop, after exiting it, is educational.


So you want a better quality hell? A slightly improved degree of hell? Sounds silly to me.

An old Sufi saying "Even hell can be comfortable through skilful means". In any case I spent decades in severe intractable chronic pain. Unless you have gone through something like that you have no idea. I needed some skillful means or something. It took a lot of recurrances to solve the problem. It was exiting hell. I learned to never say "it couldn't get worse" because it always did. What are you doing? Have fun.

solomon levi
12-15-2012, 02:31 PM
Hi III. :)

Well, we have to understand that when we think or speak of time in a linear fashion, we are not
seeing the whole truth/picture. It is the linear idea of the ego that views things linearly. The ego is an
illusion that is real, a psychological construct or belief which we can experience as real. It's reality
is contingent on the belief in linear continuity - we string together these memories and it gives the
appearance of "I". This ego is the idea of a separate self. Not only are the memories/events which
the ego selects to call "I" only partial in our own lifetime(s)...(we don't remember every moment of
our lives - just some; probably less than 5%), they are also memories belong to one body/brain, ignoring
the 6 billion others on this planet, let alone the universe/akashic records. Thus "idea of separate self" = ego.

Anyway, before i get side-tracked, the ego does not exist without the idea/belief in linear continuity. And
to think that the loops and hells and lifetimes exist linearly is only an ego interpretation. ALL TIMES AND
EVENTS AND LEVELS AND DIMENSIONS ARE OCCURRING NOW SIMULTANEOUSLY. That is
another interpretation which is beyond the ego's scope.

I'm just saying, your certainty in the linearity of the numerable hellish loops doesn't make it objective. Granted,
that is the way just about everybody else will experience it as well, so it's good advice. But it is only one option.

The fact that they are loops tells us they are dreams WITHIN dreams WITHIN dreams. Within is not linear!
Within is inside of this moment. It is the way the EM spectrum is all moving at the speed of light, and yet radio
waves appear to be much slower and denser than gamma due to their amplitude - they take a longer route to traverse
the same distance relative to the immoveable center line. But these levels or planes or dimensions are within
one another, just as "universes" are released when an atom is split and we watch the energy unfold as a mushroom
cloud, an explicate torus. We're not normally aware of an atom as a wave smeared throughout the spectrum; because
of our linear ego we think of it as a particle, and shells. That's true, but it's not the whole truth. The egoic linear
observer can only observe egoic linear atoms - thus aeons in hell are the price of the egoic idea/viewpoint/belief.

Again, you're "right" - your description is what happens to most people. It is "correct" for most people reading this thread.
But it didn't happen to me. I had assistance and preparation - call it a VIP pass. :) Not that I am important - I just know "someone"
who has my back and has been there every time I've died and s/he takes me past the hellish infrared realms. Everyone has this
option potentially. I just want to bring it to light. Of course, believing me isn't going to save anyone from "hell"/linear time.
Each has to see, directly, first-hand, the illusory nature of the ego/linear description for oneself. Then saturn/time/lead/dense ego
begins to putrefy and become the homogeneous water of the now. Time changes from horizontal/linear/sea salt to vertical/nonlocal/nitre.
Again, this is just one more way of talking about stalking and dreaming. It is the vertical time/nitre that allows for dimensional leaps,
which is to say "salvation", immaculate conception, miracles, instantaneous healing, deliverance from hell, etc.

There is no reason to believe that linear progression rules time or incarnations or loops. It is our frequency signature that determines
where "here" is. Someone could die today and be reincarnated in 570 BC, or on a planet orbiting Altair, if that is their signature.
Of course, the signature of the ego = hell, no matter where you are.

Those familiar with psychedelics probably know these time loops and that they can appear to be endless while we're in them -
then we "come down" to realise it has only been an hour or two relative to this plane's time-keeping method. Hell is no different.
Those hellish aeons happen in an instant, even though it doesn't seem so. An exponential number of x-rays, for example, fit
inside/within one hellish infrared wave. So we don't have to accept hell - we can identify with another frequency. That is the
solution, rather than choosing not commit suicide. Choosing not to commit suicide doesn't free us from ego identification/hell.
What made you experience aeons of hell was identification, not suicide. Of course anyone committing suicide is identified or
determined as alchemy calls it. But all suicides are not determined to the same place.
What I am describing as an option is not available to everyone - only potentially; nor is alchemy for everybody. But alchemy
demands a suicide - THAT IS, A WILLFUL CONSCIOUS DEATH. Jesus was a suicide. "He" could have avoided going to
Jerusalem if he chose the ego option Peter offerred:

" 21From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-21.htm)22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-22.htm)23But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.” (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-23.htm)

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-24.htm)25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-25.htm)26“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-26.htm)27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds(signature/frequency). (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-27.htm)

28“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (http://bible.cc/matthew/16-28.htm)

It is not by accident that alchemy also speaks of its subject as a sacrifical lamb. Where is the sacrifice in being killed against one's will?
Anyway, most people's taboos won't even allow them to consider what I am saying. And that's good - it doesn't apply to them as
linear beings. But then it doesn't apply to anyone as linear beings. We are all linear beings, but that is not all we are. We are simultaneously
Peter and Christ. Peter is the stumbling block which becomes the stepping stone/nitre/ladder of Jacob, etc. He was Simon, meaning "hearkening,
hearing" which is a feminine quality: horizonatal/sea salt. Simon also means "snub-nosed" in greek, snub meaning to treat with disdain or contempt,
especially by ignoring, which are qualities of a fixed substance alchemically speaking. When we join this fixed feminine to a volatile masculine, we
have an androgynus child that can do miracles/wonders.
So I am saying we have to reconcile your description and mine; stalking and dreaming as we said before. There are not two paths but one.
We must bear our CROSS - horizontal and vertical time; magnetic and electric waves at 90 degree angles; stalking and dreaming.