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solomon levi
06-10-2012, 01:06 PM
This is a matter of perspective; of identification.
As bodies, as genetic material, of course we have existed before,
in/as our parents, and their parents and so forth.
This can also lead to soul, to evolution.

But as spirit... spirit has not had many manifestations, many lives/incarnations.
Spirit does not evolve on time like soul and bodies do.
Spirit is one, is forever, is your ultimate identity.
Spirit is impersonal.

solomon levi
06-10-2012, 01:14 PM
Spirit is a spontaneous realisation.
I have said that I am not interested in my soul.
That hasn't always been true.
About 6 years ago, I was still interested in evolving as a soul.
But what happens with spirit is like the singularity of a black hole.
As you approach it, time speeds up exponentially, and suddenly, you are spirit
without any time, without a past, without cause and effect, without relation to
your past, without ideas of evolution.
Spirit is the black hole. When you become aware of it, it starts to suck you in.
As spirit, I am not the product of my past; I didn't evolve to this state.
This has always been the underlying truth of me.
Everything else was a story.

garvolt2002
06-10-2012, 11:07 PM
To be honest on the subject of Reincaration nobody really knows. Each religion and esoteric group have different viewpoints. I don't think we will ever understand if its true or not.

solomon levi
06-10-2012, 11:37 PM
If nobody knows, we must assume the Buddha was disillusioned and not enlightened at all.

This is certainly within the known. Nothing I said above is speculative.

It is an error to think/assume that what we personally know now is all that is
possible for man to know.

There are hundreds or thousands who remember previous incarnations.
I am one, Krisztian is one, my mom was one, Androgynus too...

solomon levi
06-11-2012, 12:03 AM
A very scientific explanation, which I actually saw myself in vision, is this:
Everyone in bodies now are the successful survivors of genetic lineage from the beginning,
whatever that beginning was. When a tree grows a fruit and a seed, is the seed not the tree?
When is it not the tree? When it creates a new tree? The parent tree is also the child tree.
They are genetically connected. So too are we. Your genes remember! They wouldn't be genes
if they didn't.
Reincarnation is simply becoming aware of what your genes already/always know.
This is as simple as saying your body is the product of your parents genes, and they of theirs,
and so on, and so on.
Soul is the product of life memories, just as ego is the product of this life's memory.
Spirit is the only part of us that isn't the past - a product of something else.

Reincarnation, as it is generally known, is only slightly more complicated.
We don't normally call every previous genetic existence one of our past lives;
only the ones our soul had "spike" experiences in seem like "ours".
This idea of possession is illusory though for those who look very closely.
Even your ego isn't you/yours. When you're not personal, possessive, identified, attached...
every life is you. You are consciousness. Everything is this one consciousness.

Krisztian
06-11-2012, 12:43 AM
There are hundreds or thousands who remember previous incarnations.
I am one, Krisztian is one, my mom was one, Androgynus too...

O it's impossible for me to ignore re-incarnation. It's not about belief; in fact the word 'belief' shouldn't be in the vocabulary nor thinking of a spiritually-inspired person.

As for the intellectual arguments:

Every religion, known to mankind, even very remote traditions, as well as those that went extinct, contain within their system of philosophy 'reincarnation'.

Canadian psychiatrist Ian Stevenson's clinical work has seriously explored this subject.

Plato, perhaps the greatest philosopher of recorded history, says we don't learn anything new, we just 'remember' by the help of experience.

/

But, there's no thing I can say to change minds and, it is as it should be. Perhaps one day you recall memories that just don't fit, makes sense, within the constrains of your current identity.

Krisztian
06-11-2012, 04:23 PM
Excerpt taken from Coast to Coast AM website, I believe George Noory will be hosting Monday night, June 11th, 2012 on his radio program the topic of reincarnation:

Widely respected journalist and publisher, Roy Stemman, will discuss his life researching the paranormal, and his most recent work investigating reincarnation, comparing the best-documented case studies from around the world, as well as the scientific theories to explain them.

I guess, as life would have it and always does, this program may be fitting to what we started discussing here in this Thread. We'll see where Roy takes this topic?

Awani
04-20-2015, 11:37 AM
There are hundreds or thousands who remember previous incarnations.
I am one, Krisztian is one, my mom was one, Androgynus too...

Having experienced visions of reincarnation I have viewed it both as beautiful as well as horrifying.

A: One part of me is afraid to die because I don't want to face the eternity... the infinite light... physical life down here seems so easy to grasp in comparison. I guess this is the addictive nature of the physical realm.

B: Another part of me is looking forward to death because it will be a great adventure stepping into the unknown... and moments after this it will be the known... only to - perhaps - be transported back into a new body, which is fine... why not... till it's not.

C: A third part of me still thinks that it could all be mumbo-jumbo and in death everything just goes "black". The end of any sort of awareness or consciousness.

The wisdom I have experienced has firmly told me that it is path B that is the most wise path to travel on. The best state of mind to have when thinking about these things. It does bring the most peace... just can't seem to shake the other two...

It's like a roller coaster. Either it will be very fun, or it will be very boring/sickening... or there will be an accident. The concept that it might actually be fun/enjoyable is the most wise path to take... and it will probably be correct... but it is nevertheless not impossible that it might be bad or, even worse, fatal.

I don't really have a point... just wanted to put it out there that even though I am 99 % certain of my current position the 1 % is bugging me. I am aware that it is practically impossible to be 100 % certain about anything. That would be silly, but it would be some sort of peace of mind.

Perhaps the best path to go down is to say that this is 100 % how I want to see things and how I want the afterlife to be like... and if for some reason it isn't then I will be reborn anyway and forget all about it or I will loose consciousness and then it won't matter anyway. Because what I want is the only thing that I can be 100 % certain of... for the most part. And I want this:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/10917304_10205621119196800_7617468193918598_n_zpsd ja7zwbu.jpg

:cool:

3+O(
05-07-2015, 05:31 PM
If the spirit can leave the body, that is, temporal conditions, for eternity and return to time in another body, what restricts it from entering a body in the past of its previous bodily incarnation? To suppose it cannot implies some higher-order "time" in which our time is embedded but which is not yet the timeless condition.

Furthermore, if reincarnation (metempsychosis) is a reality, what prevents simultaneous incarnations of the same spirit?

And, if one agrees with the argument to this point, then one must agree that it is superfluous to assume the existence of more than one spirit, which is incarnating in all bodies at all times.

Ghislain
05-07-2015, 09:14 PM
As all is now then to enter a body in the past of its previous bodily incarnation is already happening...right now.

Ghislain

Bel Matina
05-08-2015, 05:45 AM
The past is in one's memory and the future in one's expectation. What you remember, you remember now, and likewise with expectation. Time may or may not be a fiction of these phenomena. It doesn't matter. Either way, the relationship of now to another moment is established by its presence in the moment now, whether explicitly as memory or expectation, or implicitly according to the rules of logical consequence. Therefore my relationship with each of you in the moment of reading this is no different than to the memory or expectation of myself in another moment. All souls I can conceive of may or may not be identical to mine, but they might as well be.

Ghislain
05-08-2015, 02:05 PM
The past is in one's memory and the future in one's expectation.

Information of the past is in the memory, perhaps, but where is this memory?

If I write "Elephant" then the reader can recall an elephant from memory, but can I chop the brain up to find the information of this elephant they recall?

If one could plant the information of the past into the place where it is stored, wherever that may be, would those plantees perceive that as a past they have lived through?

I do understand your point BM, but if we only think inside the box then is there an outside?

If everyone was implanted with past thought of you then you may have only just got here and we would be none the wiser.

So reincarnation may just be as simple as a reboot.

Ghislain

Bel Matina
05-08-2015, 03:11 PM
The memory is an image in the present, which appears to us in the same way that the image of the world appears to us. Whether the past, the world, or anything I could mention is really "there" in whatever sense might be meant makes no difference to the image. The experience of the moment does not demand a cause or precedent. It simply presents itself.


I do understand your point BM, but if we only think inside the box then is there an outside?
Ghislain

You do understand my point. You argue it well. I take it a step further. Is there any difference in consequence if there is or is not an outside? The systems that appear to exist outside our experience still appear, and therefore exist within our experience as well. Do we need to posit another place for that system to be repeated?

The Sefer Yetsirah defines five dimensions, as I reference in my signature; three of space, one of time, and one of choice. In as much as we travel in any of them, we could easily be travelling as freely in all as any. Time borrows its linearity from narrative. There can be narrative in a single moment, as in a memory, but there can be no string of moments without a narrative. Given our desire to make sense of what we see, how would we catch ourselves rewinding? If we carried a memory of the future, it would be to a new past with that image. A new beginning starts a new story, and when that story diverges from this future memory, does it mean anything to call it something other than an expectation? If I slip behind your face for a moment, I leave my memories in the moment here, and if I didn't you'd call it intuition, or imagination, or telepathy.

The ethical problem with solipsism goes away when you realize that all the restrictions placed on you by the outside world are already inside your experience. If I'm seeing imaginary reflections of myself I can certainly expect them to act similarly to the way I expect I would in their position. More than that, if this is all a dream, and I do violence to you, I should expect next to dream of being you in that condition, since that's the sort of word-association logic that dreams tend to follow.

I view every moment as simultaneous and complete, connected through their ambiguity, and most strongly along the lines of "sensibility", though not necessarily strictly. What attitude I take is more of a feeling derived from the experience that the stone projects with less resistance into a like medium. I find the universe of possible moments exists with some or another degree of clarity in every moment, and it seems reasonable enough that that universe would be the true nature of what I see, with only darkness obscuring everything invisible to me now. If I seem to be moving, I'm just turning the stone.

I digress. My point was that the faculties of discrimination and inquiry are indifferent to any reality beyond our immediate experience. Given that, if there's a deeper truth to be had, it will be through some faculty of direct perception, and it will remain fundamentally inexplicable. Committing to reincarnation as a linear thing assumes the narrative, or worse, assumes time, which I hope I've demonstrated to be a tenuous assumption.

Ghislain
05-08-2015, 04:14 PM
We could go on and on with this conversation, I find it fascinating, however the thread is about reincarnation, thus we have to assume first that we are carnate in the form of our bodies, but what are we without one...

In my experience, and at this present "time", I assume myself to be me (ego), but from another point of view I see myself as made up of many and then those many are all a part of just one that encompasses all.

When people talk of reincarnation they are usually talking of leaving the body they are now in and an essence of them returning to this world incarnate of another body. If we take science as a truth then we most certainly do return, taken up by the roots of a plant perhaps, to go through the food chain and finally reach another body. But I am sure that is not what the question is asking. It is more of a question of us as a single entity restarting as we started within this body; forgive me as I get confused between spirit and soul.

:) I don't have a straight answer, I have had an experience that would be an answer to that if I could believe it myself, but I have to even question that experience.

Ghislain

Bel Matina
05-08-2015, 04:51 PM
I think we've stayed on topic pretty well, though I do also see this wrapping up.

Taking the question of reincarnation as one of, "do we live lives other than this one?" "does this experience continue in another body?", I've proposed that in one of many analyses I hold to be equivalent, why certainly, all of them.

The circumstance could be equally well described holding that death is the end, or that the soul transmigrates specifically in an ordered way according to some criteria. I see every reason to think that what's true for you is whatever you will, and in any case I'm sure you'd never know the difference.

I've tried to communicate the value I find in seeing equivalent possibilities as equally true. Words can only indicate this sort of thing, not communicate it, so I've met no frustration. It was or it wasn't the time; you saw it or you didn't. If the time passed, it will come again, as all things turn with the stone.

I would like to hear about your experience, if there's a venue in which you're willing to share it.

Eshai
05-14-2015, 04:12 PM
If we are all part of the whole, perhaps we can experience multiple awarenesses simultaneously. I do not regard the soul as solid and fixed, but rather as a liquid/gas and fluid, able to permeate multiple dimensions of existence, as well as fragment and give rise to more, each fragment unique in some fashion.

Awani
11-25-2016, 05:04 PM
I have a question, and I would like to see what people think (if you don't believe in reincarnation this thread is somewhat irrelevant, create a debunk thread if you like).

Example

You live your life and you are a bit of an asshole, but you work on it and when you die you die much less of an asshole than when you started. Then you are sent back for another life, do you then start somewhat at the same point or do you have to start all over again?

It seems, in terms if reincarnation, that there is some sort of "going forward" (and in some cases those that go backwards), but in terms of the former - if it is true that you don't start over, but progress from when you last finished - then how is that remembered? Is it somehow deep in your core being stored as a memory, but confused for just simple built in "creed".

:cool:

Andro
11-25-2016, 05:21 PM
The linear concept of time ('sent back', 'RE-incarnate', etc...) is very limiting if we want to understand those dynamics.

You don't "progress from where you last finished".

In most cases, you 'progress' simultaneously on multiple fronts. (IF 'progress' is your thing - it is for most...)

That's the telegram/shorthand version of it :)

Awani
11-25-2016, 05:22 PM
Yes I agree with the non-linear aspect. But if you are a rapist and learn not to rape then in the next life you would grow up being less rapist in your mind, right? You wouldn't go back and be a super-rapist. I mean if you "in-between lives" understand that the "right" path is to not rape.

:cool:

Andro
11-25-2016, 05:35 PM
But if you are a rapist and learn not to rape then in the next life you would grow up being less rapist in your mind, right? You wouldn't go back and be a super-rapist.

This is still linear processing. There is no 'in the NEXT life'.

Multiple fronts SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Some 'fronts' contain the rapist experience, other simultaneous fronts may contain the rape victim experience (for example).

Experience data input to Spirit 'flows in' simultaneously from both/ALL fronts.

Parallel processing.

Awani
11-25-2016, 05:39 PM
This is still linear processing. There is no 'in the NEXT life'.

Multiple fronts SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Some 'fronts' contain the rapist experience, other simultaneous fronts may contain the rape victim experience (for example).

Experience data input to Spirit 'flows in' simultaneously from both/ALL fronts.

Parallel processing.

I don't think I support that any more. I do agree with the non-linear bit. But the essence of the "self", whatever you want to call it is singular... and yes it might unite with other singular "selfs" at some point... but in this level it is singular. When I gather all sacred texts, personal direct experiences, NDE reports and all other sources of afterlife reports then it fits the model I just explained.

There is no hint (that I have found) that we are multiple beings at the same time (excluding the concept that we are all one of course).

Although I don't know the true state of affairs, I only put forth my current model, which my initial question was based upon.

:cool:

Andro
11-25-2016, 05:55 PM
I have a question, and I would like to see what people think

You asked what other people think, and this is my view. One among many others, I'm sure :)


Although I don't know the true state of affairs, I only put forth my current model, which my initial question was based upon.

If your model works for you, it's simple: Just use it :) And I doubt there is a 'true state of affairs'. IF there's a 'true' state, there likely wouldn't be any 'affairs' involved :)

If the current model doesn't satisfy you or doesn't work for you (or if you question it), then the suggestion would be opening up to considering other models... and combining everything (other models) into something uniquely yours that works best, yet still subject to ongoing rectification...

Awani
11-25-2016, 06:06 PM
You asked what other people think, and this is my view.

Maybe I wasn't particular enough. My question was in regards to this model...


You live your life and you are a bit of an asshole, but you work on it and when you die you die much less of an asshole than when you started. Then you are sent back for another life, do you then start somewhat at the same point or do you have to start all over again?

It seems, in terms if reincarnation, that there is some sort of "going forward" (and in some cases those that go backwards), but in terms of the former - if it is true that you don't start over, but progress from when you last finished - then how is that remembered? Is it somehow deep in your core being stored as a memory, but confused for just simple built in "creed".

Your reply was to debunk the line of questioning. Even if it wasn't intentional. But that's fine. I am guilty of doing the same on multiple occasions. ;)

:cool:

Andro
11-25-2016, 06:14 PM
My question was in regards to this model...

That line again :)

Not sure now if you seek reassurance by others elaborating on your already proposed model, or if you want other angles...


Your reply was to debunk the line of questioning.

I would hardly call that 'debunking'... I DID use the 'progress via incarnations' model as a basis, I just offered a different look at it IMO.


I am guilty of doing the same on multiple occasions.

Indeed. None of us is without sin :cool: ...

Kiorionis
11-25-2016, 06:34 PM
I have my own perspective of it.



You live your life and you are a bit of an asshole, but you work on it and when you die you die much less of an asshole than when you started. Then you are sent back for another life, do you then start somewhat at the same point or do you have to start all over again?

I think it's a bit more involved than "if you die a bit less of an ass hole you'll reincarnate as a bit less of an ass hole."

From what I've read about it, reincarnation is of a particular 'Soul' manifested by a particular 'Spirit'.

For example, the 'soul' known as 'dev' is separate and more or less refined than the 'spirit' of 'dev' -- 'spirit-dev' manifests the various frequencies of 'soul-dev' over lifetimes based on who-knows-what criteria.

At least, this is how I see it currently. Spirit refines itself through conscious experience inside an energetic matrix, which is the blueprint for the physical matrix.

However, as I currently see it, the curious thing about physical incarnation is that the DNA available for an individual at birth from their parents weighs in on what the 'soul' will be like -- following a formula similar to body + spirit = soul.

Consciousness adapting to the soul's uniqueness seems to be a universal trait in human development.


If it is true that you don't start over, but progress from when you last finished - then how is that remembered? Is it somehow deep in your core being stored as a memory, but confused for just simple built in "creed".

:cool:

I like to think that Consciousness/Spirit doesn't require memory. It is pure, unadultered peace and void-ness of thought. "In the beginning, the earth was formless and void" sort of thing. Consciousness/the "Spirit of God" is "hovering over the face of the deep" -- if that makes sense.

Consciousness only needs to be "remember" in as far as recognizing it's existence. Every time you recognize you're own "fixt point" you're "attuning" your soul and body to your spirit.

Memories, however, seem to be useful for Consciousness to reflect on in this lifetime. They allow Spirit to further manifest itself.

Lol, and this might only make sense to me, because it's based in my own unique soul-experiences :p

Awani
11-25-2016, 07:22 PM
What about all those NDE reports that say they are in the state they left crossing over into "heaven"? Even if they merge with their higher self and attain a higher consciousness they still support The New York Yankees (simplified example) in heaven.


Not sure now if you seek reassurance by others elaborating on your already proposed model, or if you want other angles...

I'm fishing blind.

:cool:

Kiorionis
11-25-2016, 07:28 PM
What about all those NDE reports that say they are in the state they left crossing over into "heaven"? Even if they merge with their higher self and attain a higher consciousness they still support The New York Yankees (simplified example).


IMO, Because they come back to an older version of the physical hardware (how they've wired their brain). They need to express a Symbol, but they don't know how, so they use one their familiar with, like the Yankees.

On account of out of date hardware, the experience they remember was nothing like the real experience.

Haha or something like that

Ghislain
11-25-2016, 08:32 PM
There is also the children that say they are someone else from past lives...they have accurately described things only that person could know.

Then there is the genetics...it was discovered in the 9/11 disaster that the children born to women who were there had a genetic change not found in others.
Using this info they stated it was proof that experience can be passed on in the genes. So for example a son of a carpenter my be a more proficient carpenter
than a child that is not.

Taking that into account I would say that we return with an empty mind, but sometime a glitch occurs where the memory isn't completely erased. You enter a
body with some tools in place from the parents genes and you take it from there. It would be nice to know if we do bring any information back subconsciously.

Do we choose our parents or is it pot luck?

Do we have the same good/bad traits already installed that we have to work on or is it a fresh start?

Another thing I wonder is do we always reincarnate here or do we get a choice of other worlds?

Ghislain

John Bane
11-30-2016, 10:13 PM
I think that it's always up to us when and how we incarnate. Think about it in the other way:
If spirit and its conscious mind is eternal, then you are just like an avatar for your higher self. You are here because of something... because you have ben choose this incarnation. Ages ago i red amazing book by Paco Rabanne - Trayectoria. He describes he's experiences from his astral travels and he said that he have seen himself from time before he was born. I can more or less agree with that after my experiments with DMT. Ive seen something quite similar. In Emerald Tablets Hermes Trismegistus said that he choose this incarnation. According to this - if you are awaken enough to use the Natural Law as the conscious spirit- then an incarnation may be like another tool to gain more accomplishments for your knowledge and journey.