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solomon levi
06-22-2012, 02:41 AM
"Seeing is to lay bare the core of everything, to witness the unknown and to glimpse into the unknowable. As such, it doesn't bring one solace. Seers ordinarily go to pieces on finding out that existence is incomprehensibly complex and that our normal awareness maligns it with its limitations."
- Castaneda, "The Fire from Within"

"Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
- Gospel of Thomas


Following, what Gibran says on love, we can easily substitute the word "knowledge" for "love":

"Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love." And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said: When love beckons to you follow him, Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you. And when he speaks to you believe in him, Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden. For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning. Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun, So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth. Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself. He threshes you to make you naked. He sifts you to free you from your husks. He grinds you to whiteness. He kneads you until you are pliant; And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast. All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart. But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure, Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor, Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears. Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself. Love possesses not nor would it be possessed; For love is sufficient unto love. When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God." And think not you can direct the course of love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself. But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires: To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night. To know the pain of too much tenderness. To be wounded by your own understanding of love; And to bleed willingly and joyfully. To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving; To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy; To return home at eventide with gratitude; And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips."
- Kahlil Gibran, "The Prophet"

Finally, if I may paraphrase the general nondual view:
"Enlightenment doesn't mean being happy all the time. Enlightenment is seeing what is and not having a separate self which resists that which is."

Illen A. Cluf
06-23-2012, 03:03 AM
Knowledge is not wisdom

"In our search for knowledge, in our acquisitive desires, we are losing love, we are blunting the feeling for beauty, the sensitivity to cruelty; we are becoming more and more specialized and less and less integrated.

Wisdom cannot be replaced by knowledge, and no amount of explanation, no accumulation of facts, will free man from suffering. Knowledge is necessary, science has its place; but if the mind and heart are suffocated by knowledge, and if the cause of suffering is explained away, life becomes vain and meaningless. Information, the knowledge of facts, though ever increasing, is by its very nature limited. Wisdom is infinite, it includes knowledge and the way of action; but we take hold of a branch and think it is the whole tree. Through the knowledge of the part, we can never realize the joy of the whole.

Intellect can never lead to the whole, for it is only a segment, a part.We have separated intellect from feeling, and have developed intellect at the expense of feeling. We are like a three-legged object with one leg much longer than the others, and we have no balance. We are trained to be intellectual; our education cultivates the intellect to be sharp, cunning, acquisitive, and so it plays the most important role in our life.

Intelligence is much greater than intellect, for it is the integration of reason and love; but there can be intelligence only when there is self-knowledge, the deep understanding of the total process of oneself." -- Krishnamurti

Ghislain
06-23-2012, 06:22 AM
I have to admit I do not possess great knowledge of Alchemy; I don’t study ancient texts or follow
any Old Masters of the art. I do however feel that Alchemy holds some answers and bit by bit they
reveal themselves.

Does it matter that I don’t follow any masters or read the ancient texts...some might say it does...

The reason I take this stance I will have to explain by example:

Go into a library and see how many books there are in it...could you read these books in a lifetime...the answer
may lie in a particular book on quantum physics or in Horrace the Hungry Hedgehog...who knows?

How many different people have you met along your path...do you really know any of them deeply or,
better still, do they know you?

Most Alchemy texts are written cryptically and need to be deciphered. How many different interpretations of the
same text have you seen while on your quest?

If the old masters found something then IMO surely this is possible for all. "Seek and ye shall find" Matthew 7:7 does
not specify how one should seek. I believe one should seek nowhere in particular and at the same time everywhere.

So we read and discuss, search and change direction all the time not knowing what we are really looking for.

Most of those that search are in need of answers, but really the search should be for the question; what is that illusive question?
I believe if you can find the right question the answer will follow. Two people can read the same text but have different reasons
for doing so (or questions to answer). Will they both see the same message in the text or just the one they are looking for?

The limit of human potential lies in the ability to ask the right question.

oops wrong thread!

Knowledge and Learning are two different sides of a coin...in learning you take on board what you find whether it be from the work of another
or that of your own; whereas in knowledge you extract the truth of what you find in the learning. Knowledge comes from knowing not thinking,
it is an automatic process IMO.

The truth will set you free – John 8:32

Ghislain

N.B. The biblical quotes are for no particular religious reason they just verify that others have been
through the same thought processes before.

Edit: while re-reading this thread I noticed the title to Illen's post above..."Knowledge is not wisdom"...I think it depends on what you see as knowledge;
if you see knowledge as something learned then I would agree, but if you see knowledge as something known then I would have to say knowledge is wisdom.

vega33
06-23-2012, 10:00 AM
Good topic Ghislain, and yes knowledge actually comes indirectly to us via the very Greek root which came to be used for both "profane" and spiritual" uses of the concept of wisdom... The same root gno in Greek became the one to give us words such as the Lain Nosce. Even the Bible, which the alchemists would often use as a kind of initiatory text to be read with the eyes that could see, and in seeing unite the outer with the inner, has passages where the word "to know" is used in a sexual sense,"Adam knew Eve etc", but who can recognize the seeds of matter in the inverted tree which has its roots in the sky? Very few, even though eckhart so masterfully speaks of the eye which sees itself seeing itself, and there is this recognition by those who have done the work of the reification that it is that fixed point of resonance that manifests things down here, which is why we see such wonderful reflections of this divine truth in biological transmutation, for what better indication is there of consciousness cleaving to itself to create substance but in the world of living things and their amazing self organization even in the face of apparent chaos.

Pax et Lux

Illen A. Cluf
06-23-2012, 02:15 PM
while re-reading this thread I noticed the title to Illen's post above..."Knowledge is not wisdom"...I think it depends on what you see as knowledge;
if you see knowledge as something learned then I would agree, but if you see knowledge as something known then I would have to say knowledge is wisdom.

Hi Ghislain,

Wouldn't something "known" also be something "learned"? Or do you mean intrinsic/genetic 'knowledge' such as instinct?

Illen

solomon levi
06-23-2012, 08:58 PM
"Seeing is to lay bare the core of everything, to witness the unknown and to glimpse into the unknowable. As such, it doesn't bring one solace. Seers ordinarily go to pieces on finding out that existence is incomprehensibly complex and that our normal awareness maligns it with its limitations."
- Castaneda, "The Fire from Within"

"Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
- Gospel of Thomas


Following, what Gibran says on love, we can easily substitute the word "knowledge" for "love":

"Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love." And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said: When love beckons to you follow him, Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you. And when he speaks to you believe in him, Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden. For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning. Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun, So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth. Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself. He threshes you to make you naked. He sifts you to free you from your husks. He grinds you to whiteness. He kneads you until you are pliant; And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast. All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart. But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure, Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor, Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears. Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself. Love possesses not nor would it be possessed; For love is sufficient unto love. When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God." And think not you can direct the course of love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself. But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires: To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night. To know the pain of too much tenderness. To be wounded by your own understanding of love; And to bleed willingly and joyfully. To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving; To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy; To return home at eventide with gratitude; And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips."
- Kahlil Gibran, "The Prophet"

Finally, if I may paraphrase the general nondual view:
"Enlightenment doesn't mean being happy all the time. Enlightenment is seeing what is and not having a separate self which resists that which is."


Feel free to continue your conversations, but the topic of this thread is the EFFECT of real knowledge.
So I have placed in bold the effects in my above quotes, in case that was missed.
The topic, as I intended it, was to be about the disturbing effect truth has on one...
that the spiritual path isn't all smiles and love and happiness and peace.
Castaneda says, "a man goes to knowledge as a man goes to war."

Anyway, though I could be quoting other people, this is also my experience.

Ghislain
06-23-2012, 10:29 PM
Illen I did indeed mean instinctive knowing, or perhaps intuition; I call it feeling. Does that make
sense as I assume everyone gets the feeling at some time or other?

Vega you mention "the world of living things"; what is and is not living? That is a dilemma I have...who says what is alive?

Sol I did mean to mention the subject of the thread, but got side tracked by my own pondering.
The effect of real knowledge in my case is frightening, unknown, possibly exciting and once suspected
very difficult to leave alone. I fully understand now the meaning of "ignorance is bliss" for once you set out
on the search for truth there doesn't seem to be an option of going back.

A metaphor commonly used to describe this is in the movie Matrix; the choice of the blue or red pill.


The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are pop culture symbols representing the choice between the blissful
ignorance of illusion (blue) and embracing the sometimes painful truth of reality (red).

Source ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill)

If one could actually have an informed choice how many of us would opt for the real knowledge?

IMO one needs to be brave to take the real option, it certainly tests your sanity...I sometimes wonder if I am going insane...
then there is always the chance that "going" maybe a mute point :(

At this time I don't feel brave enough to know, maybe one can learn to be brave.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/lalastarrr/emoticon/expressions-405.jpg

Ghislain

solomon levi
06-24-2012, 04:53 AM
IMO one needs to be brave to take the real option, it certainly tests your sanity...I sometimes wonder if I am going insane...
then there is always the chance that "going" maybe a mute point :(

At this time I don't feel brave enough to know, maybe one can learn to be brave.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/lalastarrr/emoticon/expressions-405.jpg

Ghislain

For me it was a matter of discrimination - once I realised the difference between my personal preference
and something more objective, less filtered, I just couldn't ignore it and live a lie. What life is a lie?
What life is a narrow sliver of potential life?

Like in my signature quote - seeing is action. I couldn't see AND not act differently.
Personally, I don't consider myself any braver than average, unless we translate that into some mental courage
or open-mindedness - then I certainly go beyond average. :)
I find a lot of knowledge, or better said, wisdom/truth, frightening and disturbing - reality/world view shaking/breaking,
challenging "sanity". There is an aspect of pressing forward in spite of fear and instability, but I personally identify
this in me as needing to know more, almost an addiction. There's a certain momentum in the green phase, like green nature
growing no matter how much it has been pruned.
(Some people place a green phase after the black. Perhaps it is an aspect of yellow. Definitely came to me as green.)

Not that I dismiss bravery/courage. I just didn't experience it that way. Perhaps it is what is intended in magic:
to know, to dare, to will, to keep silent.

vega33
06-24-2012, 09:31 AM
Vega you mention "the world of living things"; what is and is not living? That is a dilemma I have...who says what is alive?

Well thats the interesting question isn't it? Technically we speak of the presence of motion as presence of life, and where is there not motion, or the Word/Vibration? Brahma Nada, the cosmic microwave background, vision of an omnipresent consciousness even at the subatomic level. A consciousness which is the constantly shifting magnetic field shaping all reality. Shiva in meditation focussing his awareness (the crown) on the mula (root) or his kingdom through beauty (geometric form) and thus seeding new configuratons of matter. But thats a matter for another day.

:>. Crowley knew the twin serpents of Hermes which ascend and descend the spine well enough to say that "Kether in in Malkuth, and Malkuth in Kether", but who can know this with him but those who have already been awake in the grip of the snake (the power of total awareness and presence in ones own physical form), and have known its alternating current which pulses and moves in the universe to be the one in the control of the inhabiting entity of the vehicle?.

Welcome to the realm of Initiatory Science: where one actually gains wisdom by listening to the so called Word of G-d, vibrating throughout all Nature. Our Trinity is magnetic, electric, neutral particle, and our member are Leedskalnin, Ighina, Walter Russell, John Keely and many others. We trust your stay will be pleasant and always full of new surprises, never boring ;)

Illen A. Cluf
06-25-2012, 02:14 AM
Illen I did indeed mean instinctive knowing, or perhaps intuition; I call it feeling.
Does that make sense as I assume everyone gets the feeling at some time or other?

Yes, that certainly clarifies it and makes sense. Intuition itself is a fascinating subject!

Illen

pneumatician
06-29-2012, 03:34 AM
the effect of real knowledge ???

that the majority of humanity shows in your eyes as really are, an idiots!

XD

vega33
06-29-2012, 10:22 AM
the effect of real knowledge ???

that the majority of humanity shows in your eyes as really are, an idiots!

XD



Idiot - derived from the Greek term for a private citizen or layperson, someone having no special knowledge of a subject. Yes, I would say this "real knowledge" is a special kind of bestowed knowledge, although to the uninitiated such knowledge presented out of context may well be considered "idiotic".

Ah the irony of words! Thanks Numa Numa :)