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solomon levi
07-04-2012, 01:36 PM
We hardly begin to understand what this means.
So let's begin - from the master kabbalist, Carlos Suares:

"An important postulate of the Yetsira is: Aleph with everything and everything with Aleph: Bayt with everything and everything with Bayt (or Vayt). Aleph being the timeless, unthinkable, eternal, or explosive Energy (or whichever word we wish to use for what evades all mental concepts) and Bayt (or Vayt) being any container in whatever form, shape vibration, undulation, ray, etc. . . that postulate means -- if I can use an obsolete, inadequate, but convienient set of words -- that everything that is, in whatever realm, is both "spirit" and "matter", or that there is no explosive Energy without compressive Energy, and reciprocally no structural drive without the opposite disintegrating drive. Thus everything that is, is considered by the Yetsira in terms of two co-ordinates, Aleph and Bayt. Where Bayt prevails powerfully, as in a piece of iron, Aleph is hopelessly in bondage; it cannot be active; in the biosphere Aleph operates; in the exalted mental emanation of a man made perfect, Aleph operates through time and space by means of so subtle mediums that they evade perception. So both Aleph and Bayt exist in different ranges from the inert to the very active. If by any chance one could have in oneself and be made of Aleph alive and Bayt alive, one would be in touch and commune with Aleph wherever it is and with the Bayts, whatever they are, therefore with everything that is. Aleph alive would be Aleph-Hay (Hay: 5 is the sign for life; when Abram is given the life of Aleph he becomes Abraham, with the corresponding added Hay -H in our writing) and Bayt alive would be Bayt-Hay. Therefore Aleph-Hay-Bayt-Hay would be in that person and that person would be in that schema, would be that schema in very truth. That schema, pronounced Ahavah, means LOVE in Hebrew! Its idiomatic meaning is desecrated, as is desecrated the word love everywhere in the world. The stupendous Aleph-Hay-Bayt-Hay was originally a cabalistic opening towards being at-one with all that is."

Kiorionis
10-25-2012, 08:24 AM
I am not familiar with the Yetsira, I have not gone far into Kabbalah. But the word pairs remind me of Martin Buber's 'I and Thou'.


There is no I as such but only the I of the basic word I-You and the I of the basic word I-It.
When a man says I, he means one or the other. The I he means is present when he says I. And when he says You or It, the I of one or the other basic word is also present.
Being I and saying I are the same. Saying I and saying one of the two basic words are the same.
Whoever speaks one of the basic words enters into the word and stands in it.


Three are the spheres in which the world of relation arises.
The first: life with nature. Here the relation vibrates in the dark and remains below language. The creatures stir across from us, but they are unable to come to us, and the You we say to them sticks to the threshold of language.
The second: life with men. Here the relation is manifest and enters language. We can give and receive the You.
The third: life with spiritual beings. Here the relation is wrapped in a cloud but reveals itself, it lacks but creates language. We hear no You and yet feel addressed; we answer--creating, thinking, acting: with our being we speak the basic word, unable to say You with our mouth.
But how can we incorporate into the world of the basic word what lies outside language?
In every sphere, through everything that becomes present to us, we gaze toward the train of the eternal You; in each we perceive a breath of it; in every You we address the eternal You, in every sphere according to its manner.

I might have something to add later. still mulling it over.

solomon levi
11-02-2012, 06:21 AM
Just a comment on the title I chose. I now prefer not to follow the word
"unconditional" with another word. Even unconditional love seems to
condition the unconditioned a little, thus misrepresenting it. But it does often
feel fine to equate the expression of unconditioned awareness as "love" to me.
But it's a love that doesn't have anything to do with people particularly.

Andro
11-02-2012, 08:54 AM
I now prefer not to follow the word "unconditional" with another word.
Even unconditional love seems to condition the unconditioned a little, thus misrepresenting it.

I feel that supplementing 'love' with 'unconditional' actually conditions both terms.

I don't think there 'is' such a thing as 'unconditional love'.

Everything we think/feel/say/do/are is conditioned, whether we like/recognize it or not.

For 'love' to be 'unconditional', the 'lover' would have to be unconditioned as well, as in 'undetermined'/'unspecified'. No identity at all. No manifest existence.

The very notion of being 'someone' who loves unconditionally is not possible IMO, for as long as there is 'someone', there is identity/specification - and it is already conditioned.

Unconditional anything (not just love), as I see it, is very plausible, but it is also UN-experienceable from the point of manifest self-awareness.

Awareness conditions.

Manifestations conditions.

Same goes for 'absolute'. If there is any word I most dislike to supplement with, it's 'absolute'. And don't even get me started with 'absolute truth' :).

And just like 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely', it may also be said that 'Awareness conditions, and absolute awareness conditions absolutely'.

(Let us also note how 'absolute awareness' can in itself be an oxymoron... and if not an oxymoron, at least infinitely STATIC/frozen :))

'Absolute'/'Unconditioned' speaks to me me. Absolute/Unconditioned 'something'/'anything' (even if it's awareness/love) - doesn't.

One cannot both BE and BE UNCONDITIONAL. To UN-condition, one would have not to be. Same applies to both 'one' and 'ONE'.

Everything manifest is automatically conditioned, just by being manifest.

It's not easy to express these concepts in words, but I hope the 'point' comes across, even if only for 'others' to vehemently disagree with it :)

Ghislain
11-02-2012, 06:15 PM
I am at a little cobbled in my reply to your post Androgynus as I have little concept of what is really
meant by “Love”, but I will attempt an answer all the same.

We create words to convey a meaning and a word is a tool; some tools are better than others. If the
tool is not best to serve a given purpose then one must design another, but circumstances predict
that at some point, even though not perfect, one will make do with the best current tool until an
improved version comes along. However a new design may lose some of the attributes of the older
tool.

For example a Stone Mason may produce wonderful work, but there are machines that can produce
crisper work much faster, even so the machined work loses some of its natural beauty as it is too
geometrically correct. It is like some of the life has been taken out of the work.

It is like this with words...

According to Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unconditional?s=t)

un•con•di•tion•al
adjective

1. not limited by conditions; absolute
2. Mathematics . absolute

If one exits from the illusion of what we think we are then it may be possible to see everything is an
indivisible one; it is now, has always been and will be for eternity; in this case there can be no
conditions and perhaps when one has awareness of this then that is “Unconditional Love” for how
could one feel anything but this for oneself of which nothing is separate.

Strange, but in writing this to you I also wrote it to me.

Could you create a better word?

Ghislain

solomon levi
11-02-2012, 07:23 PM
I agree, if I understand correctly, with Androgynus.
Except we don't need to not be to experience the unconditional.
The same way we don't need to kill the ego to be free of it.
The conditioned IS the unconditioned, if you see it.

Awani
11-02-2012, 09:51 PM
We often nitpick on words here. I understand why and it is interesting also, but aren't we wasting time on it? How important is language really? Yes on a forum it is necessary in order to fully comprehend each other, but in real life should we concern ourselves with the baggage words carry?

Love is love... no need to say conditional or unconditional. Love is always unconditional or it is not love at all, right?

:cool:

Andro
11-02-2012, 10:12 PM
We often nitpick on words here. I understand why and it is interesting also, but aren't we wasting time on it? How important is language really? Yes on a forum it is necessary in order to fully comprehend each other, but in real life should we concern ourselves with the baggage words carry? Love is love... no need to say conditional or unconditional. Love is always unconditional or it is not love at all, right?

1. It's our time and we can waste it anyway we so please :D

2. Language is as important as the importance we assign to it.

3. Words travel light. It's people who carry the baggage...

4. If love is always unconditional, than there is very little love in the world.

5. (Bonus Track) I would personally prefer to completely deconstruct and subsequently do away with language as we know it, and move to direct telepathy instead.
For example, Robert Monroe coined the term NVC (Non-Verbal Communication), to convey how communication is better accomplished on non-physical levels.

Awani
11-02-2012, 10:16 PM
4. If love is always unconditional, than there is very little love in the world.

True. There is a lot of lust and affection in the world, not as much love. Not love as I see it anyway.


5. (Bonus Track) I would personally prefer to completely deconstruct and subsequently do away with language as we know it, and move to direct telepathy instead.

Bring it on.

:cool:

solomon levi
11-03-2012, 12:44 AM
Words are magical and very important. When people don't use them
consciously, they create unconscious reality - that is, they are the victims of their
own ignorance. For example, I knew someone who frequently used the phrase
"pissed off" when they were angry. She had frequent urinary tract infections.

Only this week I was helping someone during a break up. She kept saying,
"I love him. I put him first. I don't matter, I just want him to be happy."
I can assure you her reality/reflection won't change until her language/
definition of love changes.

Definition is everything IMO. The more conscious we are of the words we
use and their meanings, the more accurately we can tune reality.

There is evidence that the subconscious mind, like little children, takes everything
we say literally, thus "pissed off" becomes a urinary infection, etc.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=subconscious+literal&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGRP_enUS501US503&q=subconscious+takes+things+literally+&gs_l=hp..1.0i30j0i8i30.0.0.0.8460...........0.0jFF viiapxs

The reason everyone doesn't get cancer from cigarettes lies in this as well.
The reason why the alchemist/quantum observer changes everything is in this.
Definition is everything.
I once posted something about "what is life?"
Your definition of life reveals what you experience.
"How's life?"
"Oh, my job blah, blah, blah..
and my wife has been blah, blah, blah...
Money is kind of blah...
and....."

Is that life? Job, marriage, money...
Such a small box of partial life.

It is the same when I say we are more than human; people who don't consider
that confine themselves to human experiences, ignoring other manifestations of consciousness...
whether one consciously defines themselves as human or not - it is evident in our language.
I know all kinds of things about people because of the words they choose.
People are always saying more than they realise.

Awani
11-03-2012, 04:56 AM
Oh yes I agree with you on that Sol... Freudian slips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip) for instance is something I always pay attention to. I just sometimes feel we spend too much time trying to explain the words in our debates here rather than moving along... words are just a manifestation of our thoughts and thoughts create our world.

Welcome to dev's mini-language school! :)

Many on this forum are not native English speakers either, and I for one often mix American with English... so from the start we are all struggling with language (even if many of us here are quite fluent with English), and I just wanted to inject the notion that I sometimes get tired with semantics... even if I understand why it is necessary. Those of us that have another native language might translate the words into our own language in our minds, and then whatever meaning you tried to give is jumbled yet again because with the translation it all gets lost. For example Love.

In Swedish this word is Kärlek. It is made from two words put together, Kär (to be infatuated) and Lek (game)... so love is actually The Game of Being Infatuated. Is this conditional or not? An infatuation is a virus of sorts.

Our minds are not tied down by what language we speak, the soul speaks a universal language THAT is what I mean when I say semantics are unnecessary... I hope I am getting my point across.

We are slaves to the game even in our language... you are tied as an American and I as a Swede. We can communicate because we both know a common language. If I didn't know English we would not even know each other, we would never have met.*

The words we use do carry baggage. Cultural and National. For instance, again, the word love is used a lot in the English language. It is NOT a powerful word. I love my car. I love my job. Whereas in Sweden Kärlek is never used this lightly... it can be, but not at all as often as in England and America. Therefore speaking the words 'I love you' in Swedish carries more weight than in English. This is something I have discovered having lived in the US, England and Sweden for years in each one. The culture around us has infected all words.

On a side note in Swedish when we use the word love as a verb it is another word altogether, but when we speak about love as a thing in itself it is Kärlek.

I also must mention that in Danish the word for horney is the Swedish word for suffering. And to be horney is a kind of suffering. To a Danish person the word just means horney, but to me understanding Danish as well the word horney carries an extra poetic vibe to it as I also hear it as suffering. So like I said before... semantics can never solve anything, not until we speak all languages. :)

And I am sure others on the forum that speak other languages can show that love in their language has other meanings or twists. Anyway, enough ramblings...

:cool:

* In a sense if I had not watched Transformers as a child and picked up English as well as I did this forum would not have existed (not in English at least). LOL!

solomon levi
11-03-2012, 05:24 AM
I love word origins and stuff. But yes, I hear you saying that if we really listen,
we can understand someone's intention/point even if the words are not so clear.
another translation - if it's such an effort to communicate, someone isn't listening.

A good listener is able to set aside their own knowledge; even their own language.
And listening is more than hearing words. It's listening to what is not being said as well.

Just my contribution as substitue teacher of your language school. :)

Awani
11-03-2012, 05:26 AM
Word!

It is also more difficult on a forum. If we spoke face-to-face there is so much more communication going on apart from words. So when are you getting a passport;)

:cool:

Andro
11-03-2012, 05:24 PM
The words we use do carry baggage. Cultural and National. For instance, again, the word love is used a lot in the English language. It is NOT a powerful word. I love my car. I love my job.
Whereas in Sweden Kärlek is never used this lightly... it can be, but not at all as often as in England and America. Therefore speaking the words 'I love you' in Swedish carries more weight than in English.
This is something I have discovered having lived in the US, England and Sweden for years in each one. The culture around us has infected all words.

Many ways to 'love'...

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Love-1.jpg

III
11-06-2012, 10:24 PM
Last night my partner and I had one of those so extraordinary experinces that it is impossible to speak. It has taken years of purification that she could allow herself to be unconditioned enough for it to occur. She had to learn how she kept interrupting the flow of consciousness for it to meet her conditioning. I'm trying to use the words brought up here because they seem to apply.

It's not a matter of learning how to be enlightened, it's a matter of how we learn to keep ourselves from being enlightened and to dismantle that long and laboriously constructed barriers.







x

Seth-Ra
11-07-2012, 12:16 AM
Many ways to 'love'...

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab172/androgynus_album/Love-1.jpg


Rofl! Totally resonates. :D lol



~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
11-09-2012, 08:05 PM
Last night my partner and I had one of those so extraordinary experinces that it is impossible to speak. It has taken years of purification that she could allow herself to be unconditioned enough for it to occur. She had to learn how she kept interrupting the flow of consciousness for it to meet her conditioning. I'm trying to use the words brought up here because they seem to apply.

It's not a matter of learning how to be enlightened, it's a matter of how we learn to keep ourselves from being enlightened and to dismantle that long and laboriously constructed barriers.







x



Yeah. Solving the barriers has to be done gently and as naturally as possible;
and coagulating dreams/spirit needs to be done with intelligence and heart,
with intention, consciously... wakefully.
This is mercury and sulphur on some level.
Barriers and enlightenment complement eachother and define one another:
shields/cups and swords, squares and circles/compasses...
I would say it is important to see both directions and the equilibrium, because it's
true whether we see it or not...
Like two circles intersecting always form some vesica; or the two triangles of fire and water
making a diamond as they intersect; or superior and inferior abyssum making abyssum duplicatum
where they intersect... or time and space making light... electric and magnetic making the EM spectrum...
warp and woof, void and thing, inner and outer, light and dark...
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR47DE-PtmC5913wIAlspKMVln1IJgK67g5bOj86A0tnEbBfC1nqA

solomon levi
11-11-2012, 09:53 AM
Tonight while I was working I became aware that I am/"have" unconditional love.
My earliest ideas that molded my understanding of uncon. love have to do with Jesus
not stoning a whore, or something like that. :) Then I recall when the idea of uncon love
was very threatening to my relationships: "Isn't it conditions that make her love me particularly
and not someone else?"
Nowadays, I still see how threatening love is to people. I love so easily that people most likely
assume my love is cheap. I love so quickly that people might respond, "You don't even know me."
To which I would theoretically respond: "Unconditional love isn't knowledge based. Which
conditioned love (among the billions) were you speaking about?"

Anyway, I had a great night, feeling utterly fulfilled and unconditioned.
Does it mean something that I relate to fullness/Pleroma more than emptiness/Sunyata?
They kinda seem the same when explored further - perhaps the snake eating its tail.

"In what respect is it said that the world is empty?" The Buddha replied, "Insofar as it is empty
of a self or of anything pertaining to a self." - sunna sutta

I've experienced/seen the illusion of the separate self and it wasn't "empty" for me. It definitely
stopped the world, but I didn't think or feel empty. It would be a contradiction to be absent a
self and still think or feel empty or full or anything. I guess that's the definition of emptyness -
to not even know emptyness. Stupid words. :) Who defined everything anyway? Aren't we
due for a revision?

Awani
11-11-2012, 09:41 PM
Yes.:)


Who defined everything anyway? Aren't we due for a revision?

Things are as they are because they were as they were. Habit is our game not evolution. Can we resist the natural patterns? I like to think so. Whoever speaks of the impossible creates impossibility.

:cool:

Awani
11-12-2012, 02:26 AM
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/unconditionalchickens.jpg

:cool:

solomon levi
11-12-2012, 03:39 AM
LOL! Perfect!

III
11-12-2012, 05:57 AM
Yeah. Solving the barriers has to be done gently and as naturally as possible;
and coagulating dreams/spirit needs to be done with intelligence and heart,
with intention, consciously... wakefully.
This is mercury and sulphur on some level.
Barriers and enlightenment complement eachother and define one another:
shields/cups and swords, squares and circles/compasses...
I would say it is important to see both directions and the equilibrium, because it's
true whether we see it or not...
Like two circles intersecting always form some vesica; or the two triangles of fire and water
making a diamond as they intersect; or superior and inferior abyssum making abyssum duplicatum
where they intersect... or time and space making light... electric and magnetic making the EM spectrum...
warp and woof, void and thing, inner and outer, light and dark...
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR47DE-PtmC5913wIAlspKMVln1IJgK67g5bOj86A0tnEbBfC1nqA

Hi Solomon,

Yeah. Solving the barriers has to be done gently and as naturally as possible;
and coagulating dreams/spirit needs to be done with intelligence and heart,
with intention, consciously... wakefully

Wide awake and very gently indeed. And with absolutely unconditional LOVE as there is no other way when in that consciousness suitable for soing so.


BE IN LOVE