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Draconisnova
07-21-2012, 10:25 AM
Hello,

Any one can teach me the most efficient way to catch night dew, for using in it the great work? I don´t want catch it from plants with a cloth, dragging it over the soil, this don´t work, and the dew lost is properties, since it need to be catch before it touch the soil.

Plus i only want to use glass vessels to catch it, no plastic, metal or ceramic, and the dew need to be collected before sun rise or it lost is properties as well.

Any one here want share their techniques? I need at least 1l or more of dew to start a GW without ever exposing it to sun light.

Thanks

zoas23
07-22-2012, 06:57 AM
with a fabric made of flax (linseed) with 4 stakes in the 4 corners... suspended a few centimeters above the plants and far away from the trees.

As for the sun, yes, some minutes before the sunrise you simply squeeze the fabric.

Also, I said "a fabric", but several pieces is actually better because you won't get much from just one (from 6 to 10 would be more reasonable). There are no miracles here, so don't expect to collect several liters all at once... it won't be a lot.

Ghislain
07-22-2012, 09:15 AM
Flax in Latin is Linum and the material you talk of Zoas23 is Linen which is made from the fibres of the flax plant.

So basically you just peg out some bed sheets. (if they are Linen :))

Ghislain

Edit: Most bedding today, although called Linen, is actually made from cotten or mixed fabrics.

zoas23
07-23-2012, 01:57 AM
Linen, linen... that's it.

Bedsheets??? At least in my city it is easy and cheap to buy linun... bedsheets are expensive (unless you also use "bedsheets" to talks about simple sheets).

Also, the ideal thing is the yellowish-white linun... the one that is "very white" is dyed.

The mutus liber has a drawing... I know most people know it, but it may be useful.
http://www.samaelgnosis.net/imagenes/alquimia/mutus_liber_negro/mutus_liber_04_n.gif

P.S, I always had the idea of using a large glass that forms some sort of "ramp" (not too inclined, just a bit)... and a container catching the dew that slides through the glass... but it's more a fantasy than something I would actually do... maybe it's a terribly bad idea, hard to say without trying it. Probably this plan is going to remain as a fantasy forever.

Illen A. Cluf
07-23-2012, 01:22 PM
Hello,

Any one can teach me the most efficient way to catch night dew, for using in it the great work? I don´t want catch it from plants with a cloth, dragging it over the soil, this don´t work, and the dew lost is properties, since it need to be catch before it touch the soil.

Plus i only want to use glass vessels to catch it, no plastic, metal or ceramic, and the dew need to be collected before sun rise or it lost is properties as well.

Any one here want share their techniques? I need at least 1l or more of dew to start a GW without ever exposing it to sun light.

Thanks

The way to catch the most dew in one night without it touching the ground - only glass - is to fill a large glass container (about 5 liters or so) with ice cubes. Set the glass container with ice cubes on a large glass plate or bowl. The dew will form on the outside of the large glass and drip onto the plate or into the bowl. With this method, you can catch much more dew than any other method that I'm aware of. Make sure the glass container is about six feet from the ground, and not near any trees.

zoas23
07-23-2012, 11:56 PM
The way to catch the most dew in one night without it touching the ground - only glass - is to fill a large glass container (about 5 liters or so) with ice cubes. Set the glass container with ice cubes on a large glass plate or bowl. The dew will form on the outside of the large glass and drip onto the plate or into the bowl. With this method, you can catch much more dew than any other method that I'm aware of. Make sure the glass container is about six feet from the ground, and not near any trees.

It sounds excellent. It's funny, I was going to write exactly this same thing because I thought it would be easier, but I didn't write it because I never done it myself, nor I knew anyone who has done it.

LOL... I was very proud about MY idea... now I see that I'm far from being too original and that it''s not "my" idea at all, but something that other people has thought too. On the other hand, it's useful for me to read that someone else has done it.... because I also had the feeling that it was probably a great idea that may work quite badly once it was tested in a practical way.
I am certainly going to try it, specially now that I know that even if it's not "my" idea, it's something that can work.

Illen A. Cluf
07-24-2012, 12:21 AM
It sounds excellent. It's funny, I was going to write exactly this same thing because I thought it would be easier, but I didn't write it because I never done it myself, nor I knew anyone who has done it.

LOL... I was very proud about MY idea... now I see that I'm far from being too original and that it''s not "my" idea at all, but something that other people has thought too. On the other hand, it's useful for me to read that someone else has done it.... because I also had the feeling that it was probably a great idea that may work quite badly once it was tested in a practical way.
I am certainly going to try it, specially now that I know that even if it's not "my" idea, it's something that can work.

Hi Zoas, it's not really important whose idea it is, as long as it works and can be shared. The idea seems to be fairly unique as I have only heard one other person mention and try it. I think the reason it is not well known is that the ancients didn't have access to ice as we do today, so they used other methods. Many modern alchemists seem bound by these methods used by the ancients. As for me, I try to understand the principles behind what they did and then, as long as those principles are maintained, there can be an advantage to using A new approach. It seems to be a better approach than using linen sheets, since those sheets could contaminate the dew, and also likely do not collect as much dew as this method. However, there is some work involved as it takes time to freeze enough ice cubes. One could also just purchase a bag of ice cubes.

Ghislain
07-24-2012, 09:54 AM
I tried this in reverse...I placed the ice in a bag and hung it over a bowl...this did not work as a frost developed on the bag and stayed there.
By the time it had defrosted it evaporated never dripping into the bag.

In the case of a glass I guess you have the condensate trapped and may capture some, but remember heat rises and thus the cold atmosphere
will remain in the glass and there will be little circulation.

The linen method will absorb moisture from the circulating air.

Illen you said in your post:

"I think the reason it is not well known is that the ancients didn't have access to ice as we do today, so they used other methods"

Below is an article which although not well documented I have heard of before...



The Romans' ice-making method required that you be in the desert, or at the very least in an area with low humidity to facilitate heat loss and lower
temperatures at night. The method described below was used a lot in North Africa and Palestine, for example.

The Romans would put water into a pit that was well-insulated with straw. The pit would be covered with highly polished shields during the day,
to reflect the heat of the sun, while at night the pit would be uncovered so that the water within could lose the maximum thermal energy.

Ice often began forming in the evening, and would typically be ready for harvesting by 3 or 4 a.m. Once harvested, the ice would be taken to the nearest
icehouse for storage. The more water placed in the pit, the more resistant it is to freezing overnight. But this method does work, without refrigeration, and
without electricity, and was used by the Romans to augment their seasonal ice harvests.

Source: (http://www.cutepigblog.com/2011/01/how-ancient-people-made-ice-without.html)

By 400 BC, Persian engineers had mastered the technique of storing ice in the middle of summer in the desert. (http://www.eartharchitecture.org/index.php?/categories/29-Iran)

Just a thought...

Ghislain

Illen A. Cluf
07-24-2012, 10:41 AM
In the case of a glass I guess you have the condensate trapped and may capture some, but remember heat rises and thus the cold atmosphere
will remain in the glass and there will be little circulation.

What I wrote was based on actual experience. A two gallon glass jar filled 2/3 full with ice produced about 15 cl of dew overnight. The air circulation occurs outside of the jar. The jar was sealed with a lid. Look what happens even with a cold glass of beer. If you leave it on a table, you will find a small pool of dew under the glass when you raise it.




Below is an article which although not well documented I have heard of before...

Thank you - that was very interesting. Some of the more northerly countries would also have had access to natural snow and ice. Perhaps ice was used by alchemists, but few of them describe their techniques for collecting dew.

Ghislain
07-24-2012, 01:22 PM
Sorry Illen I didn't read your post correctly.

I thought you packed the ice around the jar and captured the dew inside.

Ghislain

thoth
07-24-2012, 09:37 PM
Hi, I have used sheets of glass, about 6ft long, at an angle tilting into a bowl. This worked reasonably well. The best time of year when was that part of spring which was still cold enough to keep the glass that bit colder

pneumatician
07-25-2012, 11:36 PM
if you use the ice metod you are capturing AIR, like when you get out a cold bottle from refrigerator, the bottle start to catch AIR & not dew...

if you follow nature... :) I have a system near perfect, in teorie, becasue I have not tested yet, but I think can work vere, very well :)

in the alchemy iluminated forum a guy use several tubes in a basin and in crossing emails the guy say workked very well...very well= liters/night :)

Illen A. Cluf
07-26-2012, 02:01 AM
if you use the ice metod you are capturing AIR, like when you get out a cold bottle from refrigerator, the bottle start to catch AIR & not dew...

if you follow nature... :) I have a system near perfect, in teorie, becasue I have not tested yet, but I think can work vere, very well :)

in the alchemy iluminated forum a guy use several tubes in a basin and in crossing emails the guy say workked very well...very well= liters/night :)

But the air contains the spiritual dew.

I'm VERY interested in this other approach that produces so many liters. Do you have any pictures or drawings of the set-up?

Thanks,
Illen

pneumatician
07-26-2012, 03:21 PM
http://www.illuminated-alchemists.com/t256p15-morning-dew-method-3

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz48/Avatar1979/S8004359.jpg

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz48/Avatar1979/S8004358.jpg


Dew collection method
http://www.illuminated-alchemists.com/t23-dew-collection-method

& more...

Illen A. Cluf
07-26-2012, 11:22 PM
http://www.illuminated-alchemists.com/t256p15-morning-dew-method-3

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz48/Avatar1979/S8004359.jpg

http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz48/Avatar1979/S8004358.jpg


Dew collection method
http://www.illuminated-alchemists.com/t23-dew-collection-method

& more...

Wow! Thank you for this information. The device works on the same general ice principle, but is ingenious in how much surface area there is for dew to collect on. I assume that the ice goes into the tubes. What surprises me is that the tubes (he calls them "house down piping") appear to be some type of plastic. Do you know whether they are? If so, it's interestng that dew can seemingly form on plastic as readily as on glass. I hadn't thought of using plastic pipe.

Illen

pneumatician
07-27-2012, 10:12 PM
Wow! Thank you for this information. The device works on the same general ice principle, but is ingenious in how much surface area there is for dew to collect on. I assume that the ice goes into the tubes. What surprises me is that the tubes (he calls them "house down piping") appear to be some type of plastic. Do you know whether they are? If so, it's interestng that dew can seemingly form on plastic as readily as on glass. I hadn't thought of using plastic pipe.

Illen

no, I don't have idea of what type of plastic is. you can contact with the guy, their e-mail is in some page... but pipe tube is easy to find the plastic type. PP ?

remenber, the guy get a lot of dew... but is this the correct method ? no info if in the end their alchemy with this dew worked...

you can do the same but with tubes and basins of glass ...

without ice... the dew go to black (no light) surfaces and cold.

bye from Catalonia,
pneumatician

Illen A. Cluf
07-28-2012, 01:33 AM
you can contact with the guy, their e-mail is in some page... but pipe tube is easy to find the plastic type. PP ?

I wouldn't mind contacting him (Phillip Reed) but have not been able to find his email address. I purchased several 2 litre glass containers (used to hold spaghetti) today as well as a larger glass pyrex casserole dish.


... but is this the correct method ? no info if in the end their alchemy with this dew worked...

I think it might be "a" correct method (there are likely several different methods). Using ice to collect dew was actually used at least a couple of centuries ago. I wish I could find earlier references.


you can do the same but with tubes and basins of glass ...

That's what I'm hoping to accomplish with the 2 litre spaghetti jars. I might try it out tonight, once the second round of ice cubes are frozen.

Illen

zoas23
07-28-2012, 02:07 AM
no, I don't have idea of what type of plastic is. you can contact with the guy, their e-mail is in some page... but pipe tube is easy to find the plastic type. PP ?

remenber, the guy get a lot of dew... but is this the correct method ? no info if in the end their alchemy with this dew worked...

you can do the same but with tubes and basins of glass ...

without ice... the dew go to black (no light) surfaces and cold.

bye from Catalonia,
pneumatician

I am also unsure if this method works or not.... or if we are actually collecting dew or just humidity from the air.
Most of us have a very similar device at home, which is the air conditioner (which is nothing but a machine that separates the humidity from the air by cooling it). I would probably not think of using the water that the air conditioner produces as dew... but probably anyone who has used the linum sheets has thought: "there has to be a wiser alternative".

Illen A. Cluf
07-28-2012, 03:52 AM
I am also unsure if this method works or not.... or if we are actually collecting dew or just humidity from the air.
Most of us have a very similar device at home, which is the air conditioner (which is nothing but a machine that separates the humidity from the air by cooling it). I would probably not think of using the water that the air conditioner produces as dew... but probably anyone who has used the linum sheets has thought: "there has to be a wiser alternative".

Based on my reading (e.g. Recreations Hermetique, Naturweg, etc.) the astral spirit IS contained in the dew of the night air ("the wind carries it in its belly"). However, they say that this is not "dew" because it is obtained directly from the air. Once it touches the ground, trees, bushes, etc., then it immediately loses its astral spirit and becomes common dew. Also, they say that this astral spirit must never touch any metallic object. Therefore humidifiers are out. In addition, the device must be about 6 feet from the ground and must be captured during the Spring and/or Fall only. Also, it must not be exposed to the sun, so the device must be put out after sundown and before sunrise.

Illen

Illen A. Cluf
07-28-2012, 03:56 AM
Based on my reading (e.g. Recreations Hermetique, Naturweg, etc.) the astral spirit IS contained in the dew of the night air ("the wind carries it in its belly"). However, they say that this is not "dew" because it is obtained directly from the air. Once it touches the ground, trees, bushes, etc., then it immediately loses its astral spirit and becomes common dew. Also, they say that this astral spirit must never touch any metallic object. Therefore humidifiers are out. In addition, the device must be about 6 feet from the ground and must be captured during the Spring and/or Fall only. Also, it must not be exposed to the sun, so the device must be put out after sundown and before sunrise.

Illen


By the way, my experiment tonight is not to catch good quality astral spirit (wrong time of year), but only to test the spaghetti jars. I was able to put 4 trays of ice cubes (just over 60 ice cubes) in each jar. In one jar I added salt. Tomorrow morning I'll measure the amount of dew produced by each jar and see if the salt (which lowers the temperature of the ice) produces more dew than the other jar.

Illen

Nibiru
07-28-2012, 04:30 AM
I've had some luck obtaining gur from water I collected during a thunderstorm, do you think you could substitute highly charged rain water for the dew that's required for your experiments?

Illen A. Cluf
07-28-2012, 11:44 AM
I've had some luck obtaining gur from water I collected during a thunderstorm, do you think you could substitute highly charged rain water for the dew that's required for your experiments?

I wondered the same and would have thought so. However, the ancients specifically said that rain, snow, and dew (that which has touched the ground, trees, etc.) would not work. They didn't explain why, and I still can't understand why, in their philosophy, rain wouldn't work, especially rain collected during the night in Spring or Fall.

I checked my jars this morning. There was no ice left in the one that did not have salt in it, and it produced 42 ml of dew. The other one, where I had mixed salt with the ice cubes, still had some frozen ice in it, and produced 45 ml of water. Not too much difference, but then again I didn't add a lot of salt. Perhaps more salt might make a more significant difference. The relative humidity was only about 50%, so I suspect that I would have captured more in both jars if the humidity had been higher.

Illen

teofrast40
07-28-2012, 02:07 PM
Using ice to collect dew was actually used at least a couple of centuries ago. I wish I could find earlier references.

Illen
hi,
Well it seems that Giuseppe Francesco Borri did something very similar, using a glass cone filled with snow and exposed to sunrays to collect "water from air".
cfr Boella Galli (a cura di) Il libro del Cavalier Borri, Roma 2012
Both Christian Adolph Balduin (Phosphorus Hermeticus in Aurum superius et inferius Aurae superioris et inferioris, Francofurti-Lipsiae 1675) and Friedrich Hoffmann (Opus de methodo medendi, Lipsiae 1668) describe the same proceeding, tributing it to Borri.

cheers
t

Illen A. Cluf
07-28-2012, 02:40 PM
hi,
Well it seems that Giuseppe Francesco Borri did something very similar, using a glass cone filled with snow and exposed to sunrays to collect "water from air".
cfr Boella Galli (a cura di) Il libro del Cavalier Borri, Roma 2012
Both Christian Adolph Balduin (Phosphorus Hermeticus in Aurum superius et inferius Aurae superioris et inferioris, Francofurti-Lipsiae 1675) and Friedrich Hoffmann (Opus de methodo medendi, Lipsiae 1668) describe the same proceeding, tributing it to Borri.

cheers
t

Thank you for finding this reference! Odd how the "funnel" is often mentioned by the ancients when collecting dew. Recall also that Cyliani mentioned that he "had forgotten his funnel" so couldn't make more astral spirit.The other reference I mentioned about collecting dew from ice (18th c manuscript) also used a "funnel".

Now, the big difference here is that the dew is collected while exposed to the sun, rather than during the night when it is exposed indirectly to the rays of the sun as reflected from the moon.I recall a discussion on one of the threads about this major difference, and which method is more authentic. I don't think there ever was any agreement.

Illen

solomon levi
07-28-2012, 07:55 PM
John French:
TO CONDENSE THE AIR IN THE HEAT OF SUMMER AND IN THE HEAT OF THE DAY INTO WATER
Fill an earthen vessel unglazed, made pointed downward, and fill it with snow water (which must be kept all the year) in which is dissolved as much nitre as the water would dissolve. Let the vessel be close stopped. Hold this vessel against the sun and the air will be so condensed by the coldness of the vessel that if will drop down by the sides thereof.

pneumatician
07-29-2012, 12:05 AM
I the ancients specifically said that rain, snow, and dew (that which has touched the ground, trees, etc.) would not work. They didn't explain why, and I still can't understand why, in their philosophy, rain wouldn't work, especially rain collected during the night in Spring or Fall.

Illen

is easy to understand this... when dew... touch something is like a fecundation, persons create persons, plants plants, metals metals...

read teosophy, ummo letters, more alchemy books...

yeah, ok, glass generate glass ? :) what is glass ? and if the dew is collected with fucki?? plastic... what is plastic ? from where come from ?

zoas23
07-29-2012, 09:00 AM
Based on my reading (e.g. Recreations Hermetique, Naturweg, etc.) the astral spirit IS contained in the dew of the night air ("the wind carries it in its belly"). However, they say that this is not "dew" because it is obtained directly from the air. Once it touches the ground, trees, bushes, etc., then it immediately loses its astral spirit and becomes common dew. Also, they say that this astral spirit must never touch any metallic object. Therefore humidifiers are out. In addition, the device must be about 6 feet from the ground and must be captured during the Spring and/or Fall only. Also, it must not be exposed to the sun, so the device must be put out after sundown and before sunrise.Illen

I didn't have the idea of using the Air Conditioner.... it was mostly a comment that had the intention of seeing how much we can stretch the old ways without becoming absurd or pointless (the air conditioner was one of those examples).

I like what you are doing. I am not completely sure if it's a legitimate method or not (legitimate... a word I am using for the lack of a better word).
I am also a bit confused about the details of your method. Do you mind taking a picture?

Also, some vinegar or some alcohol (I don't know which one is cheaper in the USA) can improve your method of adding salt (they will decrease even more the melting point of the water).

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 01:07 PM
John French:
TO CONDENSE THE AIR IN THE HEAT OF SUMMER AND IN THE HEAT OF THE DAY INTO WATER
Fill an earthen vessel unglazed, made pointed downward, and fill it with snow water (which must be kept all the year) in which is dissolved as much nitre as the water would dissolve. Let the vessel be close stopped. Hold this vessel against the sun and the air will be so condensed by the coldness of the vessel that if will drop down by the sides thereof.

Thank you Solomon - another early quote from 1651! And another one that mentions exposing it to the sun rather than to the moon. Can both ways work, or is one of the two ways misleading?

Illen

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 01:13 PM
is easy to understand this... when dew... touch something is like a fecundation, persons create persons, plants plants, metals metals...

read teosophy, ummo letters, more alchemy books...

yeah, ok, glass generate glass ? :) what is glass ? and if the dew is collected with fucki?? plastic... what is plastic ? from where come from ?

I'm not sure what you mean by "ummo letters"? Where can I find these?

Glass is mostly sand (silicate) and plastic comes from petrochemicals, partially natural and partially synthetic.

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 01:40 PM
I didn't have the idea of using the Air Conditioner.... it was mostly a comment that had the intention of seeing how much we can stretch the old ways without becoming absurd or pointless (the air conditioner was one of those examples).

I like what you are doing. I am not completely sure if it's a legitimate method or not (legitimate... a word I am using for the lack of a better word).
I am also a bit confused about the details of your method. Do you mind taking a picture?

Also, some vinegar or some alcohol (I don't know which one is cheaper in the USA) can improve your method of adding salt (they will decrease even more the melting point of the water).

Hi Zoas23, there might be a way of collecting the dew using the concept of a humidifier, if some way can be found to ensure that the dew does not touch any metallic parts. It's certainly worth considering. I'm not sure either if it's a legitimate way, but then who really is sure if any way is legitimate until it has been tested? It definitely is a way that is mentioned in texts that seem to have some legitimacy, but again, who really knows which texts are legitimate and which are not? Either all the texts are legitimate and there are numerous different ways of making the Stone, many of which are quite contradictory, or there are numerous texts which are outright lies. Many texts mention a "spirit" carried by the air which some of them call "astral spirit". Some say that is is collected using a "magnet" but they are never clear about what this magnet is. Some seem to suggest it is some type of matter, such as potassium carbonate, while others mention a "device". As we have seen there are various descriptions of this device ranging from a funnel shaped glass container of ice to three connected glass spheres of which one is heated by a candle. Other ways include laying out linen sheets on poles and wringing the dew out. In any event, there seems to be a lot of texts which assume that the dew is the source of the alkahest and that this dew is extracted from the 'air" either during the daytime under the sun, or during the nighttime under the moon. The commonality is that they all do assume that this water is extracted from the air, either directly or indirectly. This "dew" is not called dew because the alchemists think of dew as something which has already touched the earth. Their dew is distinctly different in that it is extracted from the air. Glass seems to be one of the materials that does not cause the spirit to leave the dew. I think that glazed porcelain is also OK.

I used to think that this dew they mentioned was only an allegorical reference for something else. But now I think that it's still allegorical in the sense that it is not strictly a "dew" because it has not touched anything but glass or porcelain, but is still similar to dew in all other ways. This dew contains the astral spirit while vulgar dew does not. I think this is a critical distinction that most have missed in their reading of the texts. There are some texts much more clear about this such as Les Recreations Hermetiques. In fact this text provides the most detailed and open description of every step in the process that I have ever seen in any text. An English translation of this most important text is expected to be published in the near future.

So I'm not sure if this particular way will work, but I'm more and more convinced that at least one group of past alchemists achieved success by this way. That is not to say that other ways might not also work.

I will try to upload a picture of this particular setup using ice, which is quite simple (I have also experimented with another device). I have had trouble including pictures in the past but will try again.

Illen

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 01:58 PM
Also, some vinegar or some alcohol (I don't know which one is cheaper in the USA) can improve your method of adding salt (they will decrease even more the melting point of the water).

Thanks for this suggestion. So I can add a mixture of salt, niter and/or alcohol. Niter can't be purchased here, but salt and alcohol or vinegar should work well.

pneumatician
07-29-2012, 04:35 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "ummo letters"? Where can I find these?

ummo letters are a serie of docs sent to various persons around the world from a human like civilization from Ummo planet near Wolf 424 star in our galaxy, with philosophical, religious, scientific, technical, political-economic... subjects.
very interisting docs with info of the matter of the universe, quantum physics... transmutation for this guys is a everyday thing without any mistery :)


Glass is mostly sand (silicate) and plastic comes from petrochemicals, partially natural and partially synthetic.

thanks but this are retoric/intelligent questions :)

Andro
07-29-2012, 05:12 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "ummo letters"? Where can I find these?

Ummite Physics and Metaphysics - "The Essential Texts" (http://www.ummo-sciences.org/en/index.htm)

(Linking the above does not equal endorsement)
----------------------------------------------------------

zoas23
07-29-2012, 10:05 PM
Thanks for this suggestion. So I can add a mixture of salt, niter and/or alcohol. Niter can't be purchased here, but salt and alcohol or vinegar should work well.

I've learnt this method at the high school chemistry lab whilst we were working with water and measuring with the termomether the boiling point and the freezing point (to learn about the curves and the flat lines when the water gets close to 0 and 100 celsius). And we used to freeze the water by a "cold Bain-marie"... and testing with ice mixed with salt, vinegar and alcohol (the class was split in 3 groups, one of them tested with salt, another with vinegar and another with alcohol).
None of these methods actually increases the coldness of the ice, they simple let the melted water that comes from the ice have temperatures below 0º... thus letting the ice be surrounded by a "water" that is as cold as the ice itself instead of a few celsius (or farenheit) hotter.

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 10:27 PM
I am also a bit confused about the details of your method. Do you mind taking a picture?

Dear Zoas23 and forum,

I have taken a picture and tried 3 or 4 times to attach the picture without luck as in the past.
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Mod Edit: Technical issues moved to THIS POST (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2933-Posting-Images-Videos&p=23583#post23583) (In the Posting Images & Videos (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2933-Posting-Images-Videos)) thread).

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 10:32 PM
ummo letters are a serie of docs sent to various persons around the world from a human like civilization from Ummo planet near Wolf 424 star in our galaxy, with philosophical, religious, scientific, technical, political-economic... subjects.
very interisting docs with info of the matter of the universe, quantum physics... transmutation for this guys is a everyday thing without any mistery :)

OK. I don't have much difficulty in believing the existence of UFO's, but messages from another distant planet??? I'm sorry, but someone is either pulling your leg or must be delusional.

Illen


thanks but this are retoric/intelligent questions :)

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 10:33 PM
Ummite Physics and Metaphysics - "The Essential Texts" (http://www.ummo-sciences.org/en/index.htm)

Thanks, Androgynus. I might as well find out what this is all about.

Illen

Illen A. Cluf
07-29-2012, 10:35 PM
I've learnt this method at the high school chemistry lab whilst we were working with water and measuring with the termomether the boiling point and the freezing point (to learn about the curves and the flat lines when the water gets close to 0 and 100 celsius). And we used to freeze the water by a "cold Bain-marie"... and testing with ice mixed with salt, vinegar and alcohol (the class was split in 3 groups, one of them tested with salt, another with vinegar and another with alcohol).
None of these methods actually increases the coldness of the ice, they simple let the melted water that comes from the ice have temperatures below 0º... thus letting the ice be surrounded by a "water" that is as cold as the ice itself instead of a few celsius (or farenheit) hotter.

Sounds like you had much more experimentation in your classes than what I had. I did know that alcohol and salt would lower the temperature of the water, but I didn't realize that it would have a significant effect on the amount of dew produced. Time for more experiments :-)

Illen

pneumatician
07-30-2012, 12:38 PM
OK. I don't have much difficulty in believing the existence of UFO's, but messages from another distant planet??? I'm sorry, but someone is either pulling your leg or must be delusional.

Illen


nobody are pulling my leg, thanks for your interest, but I think you are another person brainwashed pregnant with simple words and human mantra concepts
.
you are talking without knowing the cause or the "how to". first read the letters sent by nomal postal serveice, yes the guys are among us, and then talk. if after this you have some intelligent argument against, we are happy to read it

and if for you a planet in our galaxy is a planet "distant"... I don't need to say anything more.

Andro
07-30-2012, 12:50 PM
As interconnected as everything may be... Let's go back to Dew Collection & Related, please :)

If anyone is interested in discussing the above mentioned 'Ummo Letters' (claimed to be of ET origin) more deeply, you can create a new & dedicated thread for this.

Thanks!

Andro
07-30-2012, 07:26 PM
three connected glass spheres of which one is heated by a candle.

Just wondering... aside from cataloging this as just another method for dew collection - - - has anyone ever considered WHY there needs to be a candle heating one of the glass globes, in this particular setup?

Many 'dew catching' methods involve ice/cold, and all of a sudden we have this 'apparatus' involving a candle/heat... What would be the Philosophy behind this?

Ghislain
07-30-2012, 08:08 PM
I am Not sure if this relates to why there needs to be a candle heating one of the glass globes, but below is
an article that explains how a gas fridge works using a flame to cool the unit.


A few household units, called gas refrigerators, operate on the absorption principle. In such gas
refrigerators a strong solution of ammonia in water is heated by a gas flame in a container called a
generator, and the ammonia is driven off as a vapour, which passes into a condenser. Changed to a
liquid state in the condenser, the ammonia flows to the evaporator as in the compression system.
Instead of the gas being inducted into a compressor on exit from the evaporator, however, the
ammonia gas is reabsorbed in the partially cooled, weak solution returning from the generator, to
form the strong ammonia solution. This process of reabsorption occurs in a container called the
absorber, from which the enriched liquid flows back to the generator to complete the cycle.

Absorption refrigeration is increasingly used in refrigeration units for comfort space cooling, for
which purpose refrigerant temperatures of 45° to 50° F (7.2° to 10° C) are suitable. In this
temperature range, water can be used as a refrigerant, with an aqueous solution of a salt, usually
lithium bromide, as the absorbent material. The water boils at a very low temperature in the
evaporator because the pressure there is low. The cold vapour is absorbed in concentrated salt
solution. This solution is then pumped into the generator, where, at elevated temperature, the
surplus water is boiled off to increase the salt concentration of the solution; this solution, after
cooling, circulates back to the absorber to complete the cycle. The system operates at high vacuum:
the evaporator pressure is about 1.0 kPa (0.145 psi); the generator and condenser operate at about
10.0 kPa (1.45 psi). The units are usually direct-fired or use steam generated in a boiler.

Source: (http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071115094212AAGit0j)

Perhaps the three galss globes are the Generator, Condenser, and absorber in some respect.

Ghislain

Illen A. Cluf
07-31-2012, 01:05 AM
Just wondering... aside from cataloging this as just another method for dew collection - - - has anyone ever considered WHY there needs to be a candle heating one of the glass globes, in this particular setup?

Many 'dew catching' methods involve ice/cold, and all of a sudden we have this 'apparatus' involving a candle/heat... What would be the Philosophy behind this?

Hi Androgynus,

A very good question, and one that I have also pondered for some time. I assume you're referring to the Bacstrom device. I came up with a couple of possibilities. The first is that the warmer air in the first globe would rise through the "trap" vent at the top and consequently "pull" more cool air into the globe, thereby causing a circulation of air. The rest of the air would travel down through the other two globes, cool and condense. The second reason may have something to do with how the "spirit" in the dew is processed since several alchemists mention the importance of a warm heat (about the heat of a hatching egg) in the process. Other than that. I'm not really sure. I was intending to have such a device blown by a glass blower, but before making such an expense, I have been experimenting with an inexpensive home-made contraption resembling the three globes.

I wish I could insert a picture since I have made several pictures of the device. I did subscribe to Photo Bucket, but haven't been able to figure out how to load the pictures into the internet website. I tried several ways without success. Most modern applications are very unintuitive to me, unlike the programs of decades ago, which were far more logical (I used to program in Basic, Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, and Assembly language during the eighties and early nineties). Once I figure out how to use it properly, I can try to insert a picture.

Does anyone know from which treatise Bacstrom's picture originally cane from? (I realize he used it to illustrate the Chemical Moonshine treatise, but I don't think it really belonged to it).

Illen

Illen A. Cluf
07-31-2012, 02:27 AM
I like what you are doing. I am not completely sure if it's a legitimate method or not (legitimate... a word I am using for the lack of a better word).
I am also a bit confused about the details of your method. Do you mind taking a picture?

I'll try inserting a link from DropBox:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/61aqbsq8cw55f7x/Dew%20From%20Ice%20Using%20Pasta%20Jars2.JPG

Hope it worked. If so, you can see that the method is incredibly simple.

Illen

zoas23
07-31-2012, 08:01 AM
I'll try inserting a link from DropBox:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/61aqbsq8cw55f7x/Dew%20From%20Ice%20Using%20Pasta%20Jars2.JPG

Hope it worked. If so, you can see that the method is incredibly simple.

Illen

Exclent. Thank you. Sometimes a pic is worth a thousand words. When you mentioned the spaghetti containers I though you were doing something very different, but the image made me understand what you were explaining again.

Andro
07-31-2012, 09:46 AM
I assume you're referring to the Bacstrom device. I came up with a couple of possibilities. The first is that the warmer air in the first globe would rise through the "trap" vent at the top and consequently "pull" more cool air into the globe, thereby causing a circulation of air. The rest of the air would travel down through the other two globes, cool and condense. The second reason may have something to do with how the "spirit" in the dew is processed since several alchemists mention the importance of a warm heat (about the heat of a hatching egg) in the process. Other than that. I'm not really sure. I was intending to have such a device blown by a glass blower, but before making such an expense, I have been experimenting with an inexpensive home-made contraption resembling the three globes.

Not just the 'Bacstrom' device. Look for example at the way presented in Hyle & Cohyle, which is much less 'complicated', involving only ONE globe and a source of heat, to collect a 'cold' water.

The method there is 'incomplete', in the sense that one needs to figure out (and implement) the more 'philosophical' aspects, for such a method to really be of use (rather than just copy it blindly).

That's why I presented the question of the CAUSE, the WHY behind the need for a heat source (in this particular example).

We need the WHY to perfect the HOW.

Otherwise we're just 'technicians', and probably won't get very far...

IMO.

And even so, I suggest experimenting in practice and making 'mistakes' anyway, as long as we let our failures guide us closer to a better inner understanding.

Illen A. Cluf
07-31-2012, 12:06 PM
The method there is 'incomplete', in the sense that one needs to figure out (and implement) the more 'philosophical' aspects, for such a method to really be of use (rather than just copy it blindly).

That's why I presented the question of the CAUSE, the WHY behind the need for a heat source (in this particular example).

We need the WHY to perfect the HOW.

Otherwise we're just 'technicians', and probably won't get very far...

Then perhaps you didn't read my second explanation (I provided both a practical as well as a philosophical explanation):

The second reason may have something to do with how the "spirit" in the dew is processed since several alchemists mention the importance of a warm heat (about the heat of a hatching egg) in the process. Other than that. I'm not really sure. I was intending to have such a device blown by a glass blower, but before making such an expense, I have been experimenting with an inexpensive home-made contraption resembling the three globes.


And even so, I suggest experimenting in practice and making 'mistakes' anyway, as long as we let our failures guide us closer to a better inner understanding.

And that's exactly what I have been trying to demonstrate.

Illen

solomon levi
07-31-2012, 12:53 PM
One also notices when starting a car on a cool morning or evening and having the
windshield heater on - the window will be clear while cool, but when the heat warms
it up a fog appears, then when it gets hotter, the window is clear again. It's the difference
in temperatures that form the fog - the same as we want from spring and autumn - fog at
sunrise or sunset due to differences in temperature stored in the earth and that in the air.
Or we see "ghosts" rising from the surface of a lake:

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpYN1xyfEfeUUvjBn79PbJqpVAp5Kck 51NoqxuQpI_GiHpQN7B

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSO0PvWHcHrELplZoMFYgSOQgxU-ZYT-4m5uhhXC04Ty8DcPZYm

And there are other ways involving pressure to make this moisture which can be applied to an alchemist's flask:

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSUz9nWzIspvoymZdgGVAkY4GxSFJ85h SPIrxxclTud7SdGTmFd

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT9j-GpXHN2B93ZGDKpCW2I5KKYHzo2929l9ZMQH4xfZvuRzIlqdA

"Where stable moist air flows over a mountain or a range of mountains, a series of large-scale standing waves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_waves) may
form on the downwind side. If the temperature at the crest of the wave drops to the dew point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point), moisture in the air may
condense to form lenticular clouds." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenticular_cloud

"Hydrostatic waves are vertically propagating waves which form over spatially large obstructions. In hydrostatic equilibrium,
the pressure of a fluid can depend only on altitude, not on horizontal displacement. Hydrostatic waves get their name from the
fact that they approximately obey the laws of hydrostatics, i.e. pressure amplitudes vary primarily in the vertical direction
instead of the horizontal. Whereas conventional, non-hydrostatic waves are characterized by horizontal undulations of lift
and sink, largely independent of altitude, hydrostatic waves are characterized by undulations of lift and sink at different
altitudes over the same ground position." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_waves


Chemically, there is also the experiment where you put a drop or two of ammonia in one glass and a drop or two of HCl in
another glass - the glasses have the same sized mouths. You swirl around the drops in each glass to get a little on the sides
of the glasses, then you put one on top of the other, mouth to mouth, and you see a fog form (ammonium chloride). Is it just
these chemicals, or will other acid and alkali combinations work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0M-Q65VQHs

Andro
07-31-2012, 05:47 PM
Then perhaps you didn't read my second explanation (I provided both a practical as well as a philosophical explanation):

I've read both. Please see comments below.


The second reason may have something to do with how the "spirit" in the dew is processed since several alchemists mention the importance of a warm heat (about the heat of a hatching egg) in the process.
Other than that. I'm not really sure.

The fact that several alchemists mention the importance of 'warm heat' is NOT a philosophical explanation IMO.

Isn't this just repeating what others have said/written, without deriving one's own philosophical insights/understandings?

Where's the WHY? Where's the CAUSE?

WHY is this heat needed in some 'dew' collection experiments, even in some simple ones?

What is the relationship of the Fire to the Water? Or to OUR Water? What is the correspondent symbolism? And why is it so?

Aesh - Mayim...

Why do witches use candles? Why do some Shamanic/tribal cultures dance around the Fire?

My personal recommendation is to look deeper and wider.

IMO.

Illen A. Cluf
07-31-2012, 11:10 PM
Hi Androgynus,




The fact that several alchemists mention the importance of 'warm heat' is NOT a philosophical explanation IMO.

Isn't this just repeating what others have said/written, without deriving one's own philosophical insights/understandings?

Where's the WHY? Where's the CAUSE?

WHY is this heat needed in some 'dew' collection experiments, even in some simple ones?

What is the relationship of the Fire to the Water? Or to OUR Water? What is the correspondent symbolism? And why is it so?

Aesh - Mayim...

Why do witches use candles? Why do some Shamanic/tribal cultures dance around the Fire?

My personal recommendation is to look deeper and wider.

IMO.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that I acknowledge that the heat from the candle could have both a practical use as well as a deeper philosophical use. I also said that I had thought deep and long about what it could mean but that I was not able at this time to figure it out.I have not read any alchemist say more about it than that a "fire" (of a low heat) is used, and they provided no other philosophical context. Thus it's wide open to speculation.

Do you have any thoughts on what it could mean?

Thanks,
Illen

Andro
07-31-2012, 11:35 PM
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

Alchemists talk a lot about fire, of one sort or another.

The subject is only open to speculation until put to the test, in practice.

I asked the questions that I did, with the intention of 'instigating' further philosophical 'digging' into this connection between Fire and Water.

I definitely have my thoughts, experiences and some conclusions on this topic, which I am thinking of eventually posting in another (more dedicated) thread.

However, for now, I would like to still leave the previous questions open - without interfering with my own perspective(s), which I am currently still testing from different angles and in different applications.

But I also raised a few more 'simple' questions, like why witches use candles for spells and hexes (for example). Contemplating this in itself, may lead to a deeper understanding IMO.

Illen A. Cluf
07-31-2012, 11:46 PM
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

Alchemists talk a lot about fire, of one sort or another.

The subject is only open to speculation until put to the test, in practice.

I asked the questions that I did, with the intention of 'instigating' further philosophical 'digging' into this connection between Fire and Water.

I definitely have my thoughts, experiences and some conclusions on this topic, which I am thinking of eventually posting in another (more dedicated) thread.

However, for now, I would like to still leave the previous questions open - without interfering with my own perspective(s), which I am currently still testing from different angles and in different applications.

But I also raised a few more 'simple' questions, like why witches use candles for spells and hexes (for example). Contemplating this in itself, may lead to a deeper understanding IMO.

Hi Androgynus,

I don't deny that a discussion of "fire" in itself would be a fascinating subject, especially in connection with water, and even the other two elements. There are obviously many philosophical discussions on these particular themes in the texts, although not specifically connected to the device under discussion. But it would certainly help in understanding why a candle is used to heat the air in order to condense the water. In this sense three elements are addressed (fire, air and water). They also mention later that the water will precipitate an "earth", leading to the fourth element. They also sometimes mention the use of one element as an "intermediary" to bridge one element with another.

As for the witches' use of a candle for spells and hexes, I'm not really too knowledgeable about witchcraft, and would have assumed that the candle would create a meditative mood which would allow closer communion with the spiritual world.

I'm looking forward to hearing your views on fire in the future.

Illen

lwowl
08-01-2012, 04:02 PM
The work with the dew is long and tedious. The illustrations in Mutus Liber depict this. So many operators have set about finding the most efficient way to collect the dew with the highest yield. It’s not the only way to make the Grand Elixir as evidenced in other alchemical works such as Bacon, Ripley, the Hollanders, etc. If the same methods of operation with differing starting matter produce the same Grand Elixir then what do they have in common? What is in the dew on the molecular level that can be obtained from other starting materials?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

http://www.uigi.com/air.html

Observe how Nature on Earth makes the dew. Vapor pressure and temperature are important variables. When the water vapor rises from the surface of the lands and the seas warmed by the morning sunshine what does it take along with it? How is it circulated during the day before it descends again to the earth in the cool of night?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RCSociety

Is there “something” hidden in the commonality that makes the matter philosophical? What is meant by philosophical? We have varying notions on this based upon the writings of the old sages.

Ammonium nitrate is a very interesting molecule. So is ammonium hydroxide. The mineral content of sea salt is a complex of impish elements. Potassium carbonate and potassium nitrate can be provocative. If an operator were to coax the orbiting complex of sub atomic particles into the dance of the adepts philosophy might just initiate revelation of the first matter. When you get close protect yourself from the intoxicating aroma; only a couple of breaths and you’ll see the light.

lwowl

Ghislain
08-01-2012, 08:36 PM
HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser)) is an interesting Wiki article on Air Wells (condensers).

Ghislain

Krisztian
08-01-2012, 09:15 PM
HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser)) is an interesting Wiki article on Air Wells (condensers).

That's very impressive, referring to those stone-buildings. Thanks Ghislain.

/

This coincides with what I'm currently playing with, collecting "angel water" for my Ens. It's off-topic so I'll leave it for another Thread.

Illen A. Cluf
08-01-2012, 10:49 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RCSociety

That's certainly an interesting link, but the author makes it sound like that is the only and definitive process that the Rosicrucians use to make the Stone. Also there's no source, so it is a little suspect.

Illen

Illen A. Cluf
08-01-2012, 10:50 PM
HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_well_(condenser)) is an interesting Wiki article on Air Wells (condensers).

Ghislain

Thanks Ghislain - that was quite interesitng.

Illen

Andro
08-01-2012, 10:57 PM
That's certainly an interesting link, but the author makes it sound like that is the only and definitive process that the Rosicrucians use to make the Stone.
Also there's no source, so it is a little suspect.

It's the 'infamous' Dew & Sea Salt (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?590-Heated-Debate-Over-the-Dew-Salt-Method-%28philowar%29) (a.k.a. 'Actum Leyden') path.

Illen A. Cluf
08-01-2012, 11:09 PM
It's the 'infamous' Dew & Sea Salt (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?590-Heated-Debate-Over-the-Dew-Salt-Method-%28philowar%29) (a.k.a. 'Actum Leyden') path.

Many thanks, Androgynus. I'll review that thread.

Illen

Ghislain
08-02-2012, 12:49 AM
I tried the fermetation of dew and sea salt, I can't say if I did anything wrong but it did not have a black precipitate.

My way to collect the dew was to place an open freezer in the night air and collect the ice in the morning \o/ who knows :)

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?797-Dew-and-sea-salt-Ganges-water

Ghislain

solomon levi
08-03-2012, 07:46 PM
Hi Androgynus,

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. My point was that I acknowledge that the heat from the candle could have both a practical use as well as a deeper philosophical use. I also said that I had thought deep and long about what it could mean but that I was not able at this time to figure it out.I have not read any alchemist say more about it than that a "fire" (of a low heat) is used, and they provided no other philosophical context. Thus it's wide open to speculation.

Do you have any thoughts on what it could mean?

Thanks,
Illen

Well, there are a lot of ways to speak of this and interpret and apply it. One that currently interests me is:
"The light of the body is the eye; if therefore thine eye be single thy whole body shall be full of light" - Matt 6:22
Ὁ λύχνος τοῦ σώματος ἐστιν ὁ ὀφθαλμός. ἐὰν οὖν ῇ̓ᾖ ὁ ὀφθαλμός σου ἁπλοῦς, ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου φωτεινὸν ἔσται·

Luchnos actually means "lamp". Phos is "light" as seen towards the end of the sentence.
Ophthalmos means "eye" but also gaze, sight, "sight-chamber"
Many have pondered over the meaning "single"/aplous, which is also simple, clear, not compound, but more literally
"not folded/plaited", but also related to sincerely, graciously, bountifully...

In a broader interpretation, one may be tempted to relate ophthalmos with the thalamus or hypothalamus in the brain.
"The thalamus also plays an important role in regulating states of sleep and wakefulness. Thalamic nuclei have strong reciprocal connections with the cerebral cortex, forming thalamo-cortico-thalamic circuits that are believed to be involved with consciousness. The thalamus plays a major role in regulating arousal, the level of awareness, and activity."
"One of the most important functions of the hypothalamus is to link the nervous system to the endocrine system via the pituitary gland (hypophysis).
The hypothalamus is responsible for certain metabolic processes and other activities of the autonomic nervous system. It synthesizes and secretes certain neurohormones, often called hypothalamic-releasing hormones, and these in turn stimulate or inhibit the secretion of pituitary hormones. The hypothalamus controls body temperature, hunger, thirst, fatigue, sleep, and circadian cycles."
- wikipedia

Anyway, the eye of providence and grace are important realisations for me right now.
Heat is one of the manifestations of the eye's firey gaze.
Why the low heat, the roasting, the charring:
"Charring is a chemical process of incomplete combustion of certain solids when subjected to high heat. The resulting residue matter is called Char.
By the action of heat, charring removes hydrogen and oxygen from the solid, so that the remaining char is composed primarily of carbon." - wikipedia

Scorch, ethiops, burnt face, "sacrifical lamb roasted whole":
Hebrew TzRB - "burn, scorch"
TzRO - leprosy
TzR - rock, flint
TzR - Tyre (of Phoenicia)
ChVRM MLK TzR - Hiram king of Tyre
ChVR - "white stuff", often related to linen, but the same words for linen refer to marble, alabaster, limestone.
ShSh (sometimes spelled ShISh, which also means "six") means "byssus" which is linen and marble - for example:
http://concordances.org/hebrew/8337b.htm
http://interlinearbible.org/esther/1-6.htm

Also, why is ChVRM known as a Benjamite? Benjamin in hebrew is BNIMN. BNI means "sons" MN is the word
for manna - sons of manna. For example, here we see "The sons of Israel ate the manna..." http://biblos.com/exodus/16-35.htm

And Sh = Sheen, the hebrew mother letter which represents fire.
And marble/limestone is CHARbonate...

TzR (actuallyTzVR) is the rock that Moses struck with his staff.
Here is a very good text which should be analysed/intuited IMO. Exodus 17:6
http://biblos.com/exodus/17-6.htm

Not only does it speak of our rock and it's water, but also manna and the eye and its grace and more.
"Behold I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb and thou shalt smite the rock and there shall
come water out of it that the people may drink And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel."

"Behold" is both a reference to the eye, sight and grace. HNNI is the root for the proper female name Hannah
which means "grace" and "flower". The greek boy's name Thalmos also means "flower". The hypothalamus controls
the endocrine glands which are the corporeal aspects of the chakras which are described as flowers/lotuses/petals.

It is significant that the verse starts with HNNI, as alchemists encourage us to begin with prayer and insist that there is no
revelation without the grace of God. And remember grace = CHARis in greek.

The word translated as "before" has the root PNIM which means "face/countenance" and is translated as "before thy Face; in thy sight".

"I will stand before thee there..." ??? the word they translate as "there" is ShM - Sheen Mem - the mother letters for fire and water.
ShM also means "name". God is called "the name"/HShM.

This verse tells us where the rock/TzVR is from: Horeb/ChRB.
ChRB means "dryness, drought, heat, desolation, waste; sword; smite"
Horeb is also the name of the mountain where Moses gets the tablets.
All of these are recognisable alchemical tells.

ChM means "heat" in hebrew, and ChM is also one of Noah's sons and father of Egypt/Khem/ChM.
ChMH is the sun/heat.
Other words with this root are chameleon which means earth-lion to distinguish it from the lion of the air
where it resided previously; champion - warrior, hero; campus - field, compostella, etc.
The relationship of chamae with the earth brings us to Cadmus.

Anyway, I've rattled on enough.

z0 K
08-03-2012, 08:12 PM
Since the subject of this thread is, How to Catch the Dew, I will indulge to mention collecting another type of dew. It is not my intention to discourage anyone from collecting common dew. I know a couple of alchemists that relocated from the arid southwest US to the Pacific northwest just to carry out the work with dew as depicted in Mutus Liber. It’s my understanding that the philosophical matter we are after is in both dews, but common dew carries very little of it.
I think it is no common dew that we should work with. Common dew is full of pollutants from global industrialization as well as urban fallout. What you can arrive at by following that path is a small amount of matter. You can collect far more of the matter by going after dew of the philosophers. I think the Rosicrucians knew this.
Just look at Mutus Liber. One process is obvious and people have been collecting common dew in that manner until this day. There is also a subtle process within the Mutus Liber that is common to many texts of adepts (examples mentioned in previous post: Bacon, Ripley and Hollanders.) that make no mention of collecting common dew as part of the process they are describing. Plates 1- 3, 8, 11, 15, focus on the subtle message. The philosophical furnace scenes in plates 2, 8 and 11 show the Magnum Opus to make the Stone of the Philosophers. The deception begins with plate 4. That’s where people get inspired to make the Philosophers Stone from morning dew, common dew.
I live in a more arid climate and dew does not form very often. I don’t collect common dew, but I do believe you could arrive at the same matter by collecting common dew. You would need hundreds of gallons of common dew compared to just 20 pounds of black earth to get enough philosophical dew to make the Stone.
Philosophical dew comes from philosophical earth. So what makes it philosophical? The earth has to rise into the heavens. Then it is black earth. The earth from above is then distilled and you get the philosophical dew. It condenses into a new world (in the receiver). From that new world you get your mercury and sulfur. All of the operations take place in one vessel, the philosophical furnace.
Hope this helps further the discussion the understanding.
z0 K

Andro
08-03-2012, 08:39 PM
Plates 1- 3, 8, 11, 15, focus on the subtle message. The philosophical furnace scenes in plates 2, 8 and 11 show the Magnum Opus to make the Stone of the Philosophers.

Are these the plates you are referring to?

Are you also implying the ML included connection between the 'Dew of Heaven' and the 'Fatness of the Earth'? (Perhaps the 'Black Earth' that you are mentioning?)

1.

http://www.dalank.de/archiv/muli/Tafel01.jpg

2.

http://www.dalank.de/archiv/muli/Tafel02.jpg

3.

http://www.dalank.de/archiv/muli/Tafel03.jpg

8.

http://www.dalank.de/archiv/muli/Tafel08.jpg

11.

http://www.dalank.de/archiv/muli/Tafel11.jpg

15.

http://www.dalank.de/archiv/muli/Tafel15.jpg

z0 K
08-03-2012, 11:12 PM
Are these the plates you are referring to?

Yes, those are the plates but not the same illustrations I'm using. I am aware of those but they are a bit faded or overexposed. I use the ones in "A Commentary on the Mutus Liber" by Adam McLean.


Are you also implying the ML included connection between the 'Dew of Heaven' and the 'Fatness of the Earth'? (Perhaps the 'Black Earth' that you are mentioning?)

Yes the 'Dew of Heaven' and the 'Fatness of the Earth' are produced in the philosophical furnace. The first thing you get is the 'Black Earth.' It's a sublimate produced from the starting material that is shown in Plate 1.

z0 K

Andro
08-03-2012, 11:27 PM
The first thing you get is the 'Black Earth.' It's a sublimate produced from the starting material that is shown in Plate 1.

I was under the (personal) impression that the starting material for this specific work was outlined in Plate 2, but I certainly don't rule out your perspective.

Plate 1 has two different variations that I am aware of, with slight differences between them (unless you are referring to the biblical quotes as being the indicators for the 'starting material').

In any case, you have provided a very interesting an refreshing perspective regarding 'Dew Collection' :)

Illen A. Cluf
08-04-2012, 12:29 AM
It's a sublimate produced from the starting material that is shown in Plate 1.
z0 K

The entire diagram in Plate 1 is obviously a symbol for Niter (the ladder is the vertical line in the symbol, the roses are the circle in the symbol). The angels waking the sleeping man are representative of the spirit that communicates between the heavens and the earth. And the roses represent the celestial dew.

Ilen

z0 K
08-04-2012, 01:33 AM
I was under the (personal) impression that the starting material for this specific work was outlined in Plate 2, but I certainly don't rule out your perspective.
Plate 1 has two different variations that I am aware of, with slight differences between them (unless you are referring to the biblical quotes as being the indicators for the 'starting material').
In any case, you have provided a very interesting an refreshing perspective regarding 'Dew Collection' :)

Thanks; Which variations do you refer?


The entire diagram in Plate 1 is obviously a symbol for Niter (the ladder is the vertical line in the symbol, the roses are the circle in the symbol).
The angels waking the sleeping man are representative of the spirit that communicates between the heavens and the earth. And the roses represent the celestial dew.

From what you have written here I agree with you. The roses do represent the celestial dew.

z0 K

Andro
08-04-2012, 08:52 AM
Which variations do you refer?

This one, for example:


One must mention here that at least two versions of the Mutus Liber have been published: the original edition in 1677, and the following one.
These two versions, of which you will find two recent examples in the enclosed bibliography, differ in particular on the first plate. In the original edition, the sleeper is in a dry landscape.
In the later one, on the contrary –the one used here-, he lies in a landscape filled with water which flows between the rocks.
According to the famous commentator Magophon, “… a clear water comes out with metallic reflects”.
It is important to mention here that “metallic” may have a negative connotation; the “metals which shine with a misleading shine” are a symbol of material attachment which cannot be tolerated in the holy space.
Water flowing with “metallic reflects” could therefore symbolize the inferior water of our pattern, which must be gotten rid of, in order to leave place to the holy.

In both versions, one can see two angels seeming to awaken the sleeper with their trumpets.
Also on both versions, the sleeper is lying against a rock and one could easily imagine him tied to it, as the bands of cloth seem to immobilize his shoulders and legs:
such an image obviously suggests that the sleeper is part of the rock itself, and that he has not been yet extracted from this raw material.
This image is evidently close to the symbolism of Free-masonry, where the initiated is compared to a stone extracted from the quarry.

SOURCE (http://www.legends-and-myths.com/40_2.cfm?i=978-legends-myths-initiation-alchemy-mutus-liber)

z0 K
08-04-2012, 04:27 PM
That’s an interesting resource link you posted, but the authors of that page missed the alchemical point of ML plate 1. I don’t disagree with the symbolism described. If one is to proceed in the practical laboratory one needs to know how to operate: what procedure is being detailed there.

Simply put, the ovum of the rose vines ties the knot between heaven and earth, the above and the below. Within the ovum is the conjunction of the inner and outer work: the microcosm and the macrocosm. Observe the two rose blossoms. The one on the left points down looking within; the other one on the right faces outward looking out: the two represent the inner and the outer tied together at the base and ascending to the heavens.

The outer work affects the inner and the inner affects the outer. If a pilgrim wishes to make the Stone of the Philosophers to refine one’s Philosophers Stone then one has to have a method of operating in the laboratory in order to achieve the Stone of the Philosophers which is a material construct.
The starting material in ML is the rose. Oak works as well, so will a host of other related matters.

z0 K

Andro
08-04-2012, 04:40 PM
z0 K, this is a very interesting interpretation of the ML engravings and of 'Dew' collection in general.

I never saw ML in this light before.

My own research also involves 'Dew', but it is neither the Common Dew, nor is it a Dew that distils from a physical 'Black Earth' (derived from a physical starting material).

My main work involves NO physical starting matter whatsoever. This is all detailed elsewhere on this forum.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

'Rose', BTW, is also linguistically connected with 'Dew'. (Same meaning, more or less).

Ghislain
08-04-2012, 06:26 PM
The name "rosemary" derives from the Latin for "dew" (ros) and "sea" (marinus), or "dew of the sea"
because in many locations it needs no water other than the humidity carried by the sea breeze to live.

Ghislain

Ilos
08-04-2012, 06:46 PM
Isn't it the same dew and rain watter?!

z0 K
08-04-2012, 09:24 PM
z0 K, this is a very interesting interpretation of the ML engravings and of 'Dew' collection in general.

I never saw ML in this light before.

My own research also involves 'Dew', but it is neither the Common Dew, nor is it a Dew that distils from a physical 'Black Earth' (derived from a physical starting material).

My main work involves NO physical starting matter whatsoever. This is all detailed elsewhere on this forum.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

'Rose', BTW, is also linguistically connected with 'Dew'. (Same meaning, more or less).

I am interested to learn; where might I find the details of your main work on the forum? I'm still a novice at navigation on this forum.

I believe physical matter is a manifestation in the Macrocosm and is too dross to be in the Microcosm. Information for it is contained in the Microcosm. That information transcends the Microcosm and erupts directly from the Kore of the Universe where one finds the Unconscious/Unknown, NoThing.

z0 K

Andro
08-04-2012, 09:38 PM
the Kore of the Universe where one finds the Unconscious/Unknown, NoThing.

The above could (to some extent) describe the 'starting material' I am researching in my 'innermost' work.

When assisted into manifestation by Art, it MAY sometimes assume an appearance resembling a sort of 'Dew'.


I am interested to learn; where might I find the details of your main work on the forum?

I won't take this thread off-topic, but some of my stuff can be found HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2071-Spiritus-Mundi).

solomon levi
08-05-2012, 01:12 PM
There is another "dew" path without a starting matter having to do with "G"eometry.
Dew is tal in hebrew, TL = 39
And 39 = 19.5 x 2

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSVpbLjptVj6BqqlKUVooQFpqbr_N6w Uz2A_Tg5kPHDqcyH99d4Q

I don't know if anyone relates to that, but it is another path suggested by our hexagram
and abyssus duplicatus. This is a "dew" collector. The merkabah chariot.

Andro
08-05-2012, 01:18 PM
There is another "dew" path without a starting matter having to do with "G"eometry.


I don't know if anyone relates to that, but it is another path suggested by our hexagram and abyssus duplicatus. This is a "dew" collector.

Definitely! Geometry can also be used to generate a 'Fire' to manifest this 'Dew' WITHOUT a 'starting matter'.

Some people I know have had varied degrees of success with this type of approach.

z0 K
08-05-2012, 06:44 PM
Definitely! Geometry can also be used to generate a 'Fire' to manifest this 'Dew' WITHOUT a 'starting matter'.

Some people I know have had varied degrees of success with this type of approach.


There is always a starting matter but not necessarily matter with any mass. There is no mass in the Microcosm, but matter persists in the Cosmic Egg. Trow deep into the sea to see what you start with.

You say you can generate a “fire” to manifest the “dew” without a “starting matter.” The concept of “fire” is a matter; the concept of “dew” is a matter. So the most profound question is: What are you? If you are some thing, then you are matter. If you are no thing, then you have matter, you possess matter.

So what is the “dew?” Ultimately the dew is no thing in every thing. The best description that explains this was given by Don Juan in his tabletop tour de force tale of the Tonal and the Nagual.

Since the Universe is a projection of information is the “dew” information or the carrier? Are you the information or the carrier? Or both? (rhetorical)

z0 K

z0 K
08-05-2012, 06:59 PM
There is another "dew" path without a starting matter having to do with "G"eometry.
Dew is tal in hebrew, TL = 39
And 39 = 19.5 x 2

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSVpbLjptVj6BqqlKUVooQFpqbr_N6w Uz2A_Tg5kPHDqcyH99d4Q

I don't know if anyone relates to that, but it is another path suggested by our hexagram
and abyssus duplicatus. This is a "dew" collector. The merkabah chariot.

I'm not much of a Cabalist (QBL) or however you say it. I'm very interested in your information about the root words and the esoteric language of the origins. From what I have read of your posts on this I find a concordance with my understanding of the same phenomena.

Which hexagram do you refer? From the I Ching? What was the query specific to dew? What was the sequence?

z0 K

Andro
08-05-2012, 07:19 PM
There is always a starting matter but not necessarily matter with any mass.
There is no mass in the Microcosm, but matter persists in the Cosmic Egg. Trow deep into the sea to see what you start with.
You say you can generate a “fire” to manifest the “dew” without a “starting matter.” The concept of “fire” is a matter; the concept of “dew” is a matter.
So the most profound question is: What are you? If you are some thing, then you are matter. If you are no thing, then you have matter, you possess matter.
So what is the “dew?” Ultimately the dew is no thing in every thing. The best description that explains this was given by Don Juan in his tabletop tour de force tale of the Tonal and the Nagual.
Since the Universe is a projection of information is the “dew” information or the carrier? Are you the information or the carrier? Or both? (rhetorical)

z0 K,

Just to clarify a simple issue - I need to make a small correction and say: "Without a physically tangible starting matter".

This doesn't mean it has no 'mass'. But it doesn't mean it carries information, either... See concepts such as 'Undetermined' and/or 'Unspecified'.

UN-In-Formed

It's also extremely dense actually (this 'Sea' we are talking about)... and this can be observed when it is gradually 'crossing over' to our realm (although it's incredibly subtle AT FIRST) :)

This is a very deep philosophical discussion, and maybe we can - eventually - continue it in another (dedicated) thread.

z0 K
08-05-2012, 09:53 PM
z0 K,

Just to clarify a simple issue - I need to make a small correction and say: "Without a physically tangible starting matter".

This doesn't mean it has no 'mass'. But it doesn't mean it carries information, either... See concepts such as 'Undetermined' and/or 'Unspecified'.

UN-In-Formed

It's also extremely dense actually (this 'Sea' we are talking about)... and this can be observed when it is gradually 'crossing over' to our realm (although it's incredibly subtle AT FIRST) :)

This is a very deep philosophical discussion, and maybe we can - eventually - continue it in another (dedicated) thread.

OK, so the “Dew” you’re talking about is not physically tangible; it has mass but does not carry information, and it is “Undetermined” and/or Unspecified.” The “dew” is also extremely dense and can be observed once it is crossing over into our world, by which I’m assuming that you mean the Macrocosm.

The “dew” that you have described seems to carry a lot of information about itself in order for such a detailed description to be given.:)

Let’s see if we are discussing the same sea. I think on one level we are both referring to the Cosmic Sea which is also the Cosmic See. I’m also inferring the Inner Sea which is also the Inner See dormant in all of us. It exists within the human body and is the generator of the alchemical “dew” described in detail by the Taoist alchemists. The Hindu alchemist also have discussed it. It is our connection from our Macrocosm to our Microcosm; it is the connection between the Cosmic Egg and the unfolding whorld we perceive in the Macrocosm.

z0 K

Andro
08-05-2012, 10:41 PM
OK, so the “Dew” you’re talking about is not physically tangible

Not the 'Dew' (which is already physically manifest), but the 'starting matter'. Please re-read.


It has mass but does not carry information, and it is “Undetermined” and/or Unspecified.”

Before becoming manifest in our realm of physical matter, it has a sort of mass, but not exactly in the way we perceive mass with our senses on this plane of existence. Some concepts are difficult for me to put in words.

We are 'swimming' in this 'mass' continuously, but we do not see it/perceive it, just as a fish does not perceive the density of the water it is naturally inhabiting, at least not in the way we perceive it...

It does not carry information because it is not determined/specified to a particular application yet.

Once manifested/'gated' into our physical reality (naturally or by Art), it starts becoming 'informed'/'determined'/'specified', either by merging with specific matter(s) or by 'informing' itself (Virgin Birth/Self-Impregnation via Auto-Feedback Loop).


The “dew” is also extremely dense and can be observed once it is crossing over into our world, by which I’m assuming that you mean the Macrocosm.

The invisible/intangible 'starting matter' (NOT the manifest 'Dew') is extremely 'dense' in the peculiar way I have attempted to describe above.

It can somehow be compared to Tesla's Aether, if you do some digging.

When a slower approach is taken in manifesting it physically by Art, it is at first extremely subtle (not dense) and can actually pass through matter (like glass, for example).
In this case, it only (gradually) gains density by alchemically 'cooking' it.


The “dew” that you have described seems to carry a lot of information about itself in order for such a detailed description to be given.:)

This 'starting matter' (which I was referring to, please re-read if in doubt) doesn't carry information.

Besides, I didn't only describe the 'Dew', but rather an entire sequence of 'incarnation' / 'corporification' into our realm. Please re-read.


Let’s see if we are discussing the same sea. I think on one level we are both referring to the Cosmic Sea which is also the Cosmic See. I’m also inferring the Inner Sea which is also the Inner See dormant in all of us. It exists within the human body and is the generator of the alchemical “dew” described in detail by the Taoist alchemists. The Hindu alchemist also have discussed it. It is our connection from our Macrocosm to our Microcosm; it is the connection between the Cosmic Egg and the unfolding whorld we perceive in the Macrocosm.

I don't disagree with you on the above, but I am merely (in the context of this thread) discussing the practical 'lab' principles involved with manifesting this kind of 'Dew'.

What you write about the human body as generating its own 'Alchemical Dew' is also valid from my perspective. The same laws/principles apply.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

PS: As for the book excerpt you've posted, I've moved it to its own new spin-off thread HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3064-Alchemical-Anatomy-of-the-Human-Athanor), because I think it deserves further discussion in its own right, while at the same time not wandering too much away from the topic of the current discussion.

Alchemical Anatomy of the Human Athanor (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3064-Alchemical-Anatomy-of-the-Human-Athanor)

Please let me know (in PM) if there is another title which you find more appropriate.

solomon levi
08-06-2012, 07:07 AM
I'm not much of a Cabalist (QBL) or however you say it. I'm very interested in your information about the root words and the esoteric language of the origins. From what I have read of your posts on this I find a concordance with my understanding of the same phenomena.

Which hexagram do you refer? From the I Ching? What was the query specific to dew? What was the sequence?

z0 K

http://marlinsmiddleages.wikispaces.com/file/view/Alchemy4.png/225672284/258x288/Alchemy4.png


This is the hexagram I meant. I really like this portrayal of double abyss.
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3025-Qabala-and-alchemy&p=23759#post23759

But yeah, I'll give some thought to the I ching as well.
I've contemplated it a bit, but I'll have to freshen up on it.

boever
10-09-2012, 11:11 AM
Here is a great example of how to make your own dew collector :
www.esoteric-market.com/blog
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tj7vsvub1jg134g/wJG5BB86-q?m

Arrakis
10-11-2012, 02:55 AM
I think it's alot easier, simple and clean to put many dishes on the grass.

Arrakis
10-11-2012, 02:59 AM
Hello, Androgynus, do you mean the dew-mercury that "appears" inside a vessel and an athanor by "oposing"?
Arrakis

JDP
05-22-2014, 01:08 PM
What I wrote was based on actual experience. A two gallon glass jar filled 2/3 full with ice produced about 15 cl of dew overnight. The air circulation occurs outside of the jar. The jar was sealed with a lid.

I have been using this method lately in order to collect enough dew to test a claim, and it does indeed work. On particularly "dewy" nights (you can check by touching the grass, if it's very wet it means there's lots of dew that night) you can collect as much as somewhat less than 100 ml of dew using a gallon plastic jar filled with ice and hung over a glass or plastic container to catch the condensed dew. After dawn, you just put the plastic gallon back in a freezer all day to freeze the water and at night you can use it again. It's a matter of using more plastic gallons and collecting jars to multiply the amount of dew collected in one night.

thoth
05-22-2014, 09:33 PM
You can also use something like an old glass shower door - the thicker the better.
Incline it at an angle and the beads of dew can be directed into a casserole dish.

If you are not going to be up before sunrise you can have some sort of arrangement where the dew can be directed into an opaque container, so to avoid the dew reacting with the sunlight

crestind
05-26-2014, 01:28 AM
I've noticed that the dew collected by using surfaces with artificially lowered temperatures (bags of ice), have less dew salt in them than the dew which naturally condenses at the ambient temperature.