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Ghislain
08-06-2012, 04:28 PM
This is a spin off from the thread Illusion of choice (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2861-Illusion-of-choice&p=23779#post23779)

Are you "Happy? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy)"

I would like to question why we have emotional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion) feelings when logic may be a better survival tool.

I would like to see people deeply question the reasons for their feelings, where they come from, what
purpose do they serve, how controlled are we by them and could we function without them.

Ghislain

Andro
08-06-2012, 05:36 PM
Quoth John Lennon:

Happiness Is A Warm Gun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xTU2Y0VFH0E#t=95s)

Interpret away :)

Ghislain
08-07-2012, 01:22 AM
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
by
The Beatles


She's not a girl who
misses much
Do-do-do-do-do, oh yeah

She's well acquainted
With the touch of a velvet hand
Like a lizard on a window pane

Man in the crowd
With the multicoloured mirrors
On his hobnail boots

Lying with his eyes
While his hands are busy
Working overtime

The sole confession of his wife
Which he ate and donated
to the National Trust

I need a fix cause I'm going down
Down to the abyss that I've left up town
I need a fix cause I'm going down

Mother Superior jump the guns
Mother Superior jump the guns
Mother Superior jump the guns

Happiness is a warm gun
( bang bang shoot shoot )
Happiness is a warm gun, yes it is
(bang bang shoot shoot)

When I hold you in my arms (oh yes)
When I feel my finger on your trigger (oh yes)
I know nobody can do me no harm
Because
happiness is a warm gun, momma
Happiness is a warm gun
-Yes it is.
Happiness is a warm, yes it is...
Gun!
Well don't ya know that happiness is a warm gun, momma? (yeah)

Song Facts (http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=154)


Lennon said of this song: "It's sort of a history of Rock 'n' Roll." Much of the imagery in the lyrics was about his sexual passion for Yoko.

And there was me thinking it was all about masturbation.

Ghislain

Andro
08-07-2012, 01:38 AM
One thing I am very unlikely to ever do is to research/find out what the writer/composer had in mind when he/she penned a line that 'did it' for me.

Maybe you/we could try to read such lines (like 'Happiness is a warm gun') more like we read alchemical texts and allegories.

There can be many interpretations, just as there can be different 'matters' to work with.

If it's masturbation for you, then this is what it is for you :)

But a 'warm gun' could mean so many different applications of this metaphor...

Maybe the question should be 'What makes ME happy' (rather than 'US')...
__________________________________________________ ________


Much of the imagery in the lyrics was about his sexual passion for Yoko.

Lennon went both ways :p

Krisztian
08-07-2012, 02:14 AM
I think 'happiness' is the soul's laughter of the fact that the incarnate personality found it's contracted experience. So the closer we are to our happiness, the more closer we are to the soul memory, the contract we came here to fulfill. A happy life is driven internally.

That's not very poetic, I know. My excuse is, I'm not Lennon.

Ghislain
08-07-2012, 02:22 AM
Androgynus, as I said in post 1 of this thread it is a spin off from Illusion of choice (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2861-Illusion-of-choice&p=23779#post23779)

And I posted what makes me happy in that thread.


Years ago I used to partake of an E or two...the feeling could easily have been described as ecstasy.
The reason I stopped taking them was because, as nice as the feeling of euphoria was, it wasn’t real
it had something missing, but the thing it showed me was that our minds can easily be induced with
feelings and emotions that are not real.

Taking this a step further I realised these "natural" feelings are not real they are brought about by chemical
release of particular glands...

Ask yourself, why do I have to be happy or sad, angry or calm? We know the effects of being in
these states, but what purpose does it serve? Do I need the reward of happiness and what benefit could
there possibly be of feeling down? Apart from writing the Blues.

Don’t get me wrong I have more than my fare share of "happiness"...I get it from my family, my work,
my hobbies etc... but that doesn’t stop me from asking why.

Look at people with Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) why them and not me? Chemical imbalance
perhaps? Some part of the machine not working properly?

I would say the majority of people drift through life on some sort of even keel, but when asked to
look deeper and check to see if they are really happy they probably say no...The reason possibly
being they are not supposed to think of the sense in it they are just supposed to go along with it. Doesn't
that seem like some sort of mindless automaton?

Perhaps that is where the choice is...you don’t have to just accept it you can ask why.

I shall start a new thread called "What Makes Us Happy and Why?" (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3065-What-Makes-Us-Happy-and-Why&p=23780#post23780)

Ghislain

On the subject of your post you did say "interpret away"

I love the Beatles and in that paticular song I like the way it changes, but to associate it with my happiness
was a bit of a stretch so I thought I would see what the author meant.

Perhaps you could give us an explanation of why you thought it fitted this thread?


Maybe the question should be 'What makes ME happy' (rather than 'US')...

Do you not think it would be a little pointless to ask in a forum what makes ME happy?

The point of this thread is to ask others if they know why things make them happy. I do apologise
if that wasn't clear.

Ghislain

Edit:
One thing I am very unlikely to ever do is to research/find out what the writer/composer had in mind when he/she penned a line that 'did it' for me.

Thats the first one should do so that one can enjoy the piece in the way the author intended.

Ghislain
08-07-2012, 02:41 AM
Krisztian


I think 'happiness' is the soul's laughter

:)

I like that.

And finding the contract is my main aim ;)

Ghislain

Andro
08-07-2012, 03:07 AM
Dear G,

Sometimes I find it preferable to listen to poets/artists/composers when it comes to such matters... Without trying to figure out what THEY meant, but what it means to ME.

(And leave the contracts to the lawyers...)

Like Jodie Foster's character says in the movie Contact: 'No words... to describe... it's poetry... they should have sent a poet...'

Alternatively, one could do an Internet research on scientists who have studied the 'make happy' chemicals in the brain :)


The point of this thread is to ask others if they know why things make them happy. I do apologize if that wasn't clear.

Then I apologize back :)

I should have been clearer as well: 'What makes YOU happy' (instead of 'What makes US happy'). However, it's ultimately a matter of psycho-semantics :)

I personally don't think there's a common 'formula' unless we deconstruct the very notion of 'happy' and its dualistic opposites, and upgrade the issue to an entirely different state of being, which I would call 'ecstasy' (not the drug), which contains many-in-one (happy, sad, etc...).
__________________________________________________ ______

About the 'warm gun' and its connection to happiness... It's very 'clear' to me on a philosophical/emotional level, so I saw fit to insert it here.

To describe (in such words!) something so (IMO) indescribable as 'happiness', is pure genius from where I'm looking.

Altogether, I'm merely attempting to 'instigate' a different approach to this topic.

Just so we don't ruin the experience, I don't think we have to mentally anal-eyes 'happiness'.

That's what the warm gun is for :)

(Just kidding... Sort of...)
________________________________

Alternatively, there's this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsM9WggCdo

:cool:

Bel Matina
08-07-2012, 03:48 AM
Logic is actually not the best survival tool. If you see a rock, does it pay more to ascertain whether in fact the rock is actually there, or simply to step over it?

Ghislain
08-07-2012, 10:37 AM
Bel Matina

I was at a garden party the other day and I don't usually drink thus I became a little worse for wear after just a few.
When it was time to depart I was saying my goodbyes as I walked through the garden gate I believed there to be a step
and so I lifted my leg to step up this imaginary step to the amusement of the onlookers, as there was no step. If this played
out the other way around and there was a step that I didn't believe was there I'm sure they would have found that much
more amusing.

Drunken Logic :)


Logic is actually not the best survival tool. If you see a rock, does it pay more to ascertain whether in fact the rock is
actually there, or simply to step over it?

If I were in a hurry then Logic says step over it, but if time was of no consequence then perhaps it may be better, not just
to acertain if the rock is actually there, but also to acertain if there is any "There" at all.

I thank you for your input on logic, but the main question is, do we need emotion?

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-07-2012, 11:23 AM
Just so we don't ruin the experience, I don't think we have to mentally anal-eyes 'happiness'.

Then why anal-eyes anything at all? Why not just accept your lot? Why have a forum? Why get out of bed?

It is only a question; if it pains anyone so much to anal-eyes their emotions then they have the “choice”
to take part in this thread or not.

I can't force people to answer the question and I am sure many have viewed and left this thread. That is the
beauty of an open forum.

At time of writing there are 63 views and 9 replies.

Sometimes it is difficult to question something if you think you won't like the answer, but fortunately there are
those that question irrespective of their findings or “emotions”...but that’s another story.

Perhaps we could keep to the question of the thread and look into the purpose of emotion and how
we are affected by them...do they control us?

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-07-2012, 02:14 PM
Robert Plutchik (21 October 1927 – 29 April 2006) was professor emeritus at the Albert Einstein
College of Medicine and adjunct professor at the University of South Florida.

Robert Plutchik's psychoevolutionary theory of emotion is one of the most influential classification
approaches for general emotional responses. He considered there to be eight primary emotions -
anger, fear, sadness, disgust, surprise, anticipation, trust, and joy.

Plutchik proposed that these 'basic' emotions are biologically primitive and have evolved in order to
increase the reproductive fitness of the animal. Plutchik argues for the primacy of these emotions by
showing each to be the trigger of behaviour with high survival value, such as the way fear inspires
the fight-or-flight response.

Plutchik created a wheel of emotions. This wheel is used to illustrate different emotions compelling
and nuanced. Plutchik first proposed his wheel model in 1980 to describe how emotions were related.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Plutchik-wheel.svg/591px-Plutchik-wheel.svg.png

He suggested 8 primary bipolar emotions: joy versus sadness; anger versus fear; trust versus disgust;
and surprise versus anticipation. Additionally, his circumplex model makes connections between the
idea of an emotion circle and a color wheel. Like colors, primary emotions can be expressed at
different intensities and can mix with one another to form different emotions.

Source: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Plutchik)

Notice the absence of “happiness”. I suppose one could substitute joy for happiness, but IMO this is
not the same. Some people find happiness in all the above emotions, for example when fighting or
being miserable. This may seem like a contradiction in terms, but look around and I’m sure you will
discover examples of this. There are those that feel guilt when happy as they feel undeserving.

Then there are those that are happy, not on their own merits, but when they see others fail. I guess
that is easier for them to find a higher standing in their group this way than to climb the ladder
themselves. :confused:


Can dysfunction in neural systems subserving emotion lead, under certain circumstances, to
more advantageous decisions? To answer this question, we investigated how individuals with
substance dependence (ISD), patients with stable focal lesions in brain regions related to emotion
(lesion patients), and normal participants (normal controls) made 20 rounds of investment decisions.
Like lesion patients, ISD made more advantageous decisions and ultimately earned more money
from their investments than the normal controls. When normal controls either won or lost money
on an investment round, they adopted a conservative strategy and became more reluctant to invest
on the subsequent round, suggesting that they were more affected than lesion patients and ISD by
the outcomes of decisions made in the previous rounds.

Source: (http://mindblog.dericbownds.net/2011/08/dark-side-of-emotion-in-decision-making.html)

How many irrational crimes are committed simply because of emotion?

How many wars are fought because of irrational emotion?

Is it time to eradicate emotion?

Will future emotions come in pill form?

If emotions are brought under control will happiness still have its place?

Ghislain

z0 K
08-07-2012, 03:22 PM
When it comes to what makes you/us happy we can go from simple to complex reasoning to try to understand feelings. Reasoning and ratiocination are functions of thinking; feeling is another function of equal status with thinking. Sensation and intuition are the other two that complete the 4 functions described by Psychiatrist/Gnostic/Alchemist Carl Jung.

To use the music analogy I prefer the Who to the Beetles. Listen to "Happy Jack" by the Who.

Songwriters: PETER TOWNSHEND

Happy Jack wasn't old, but he was a man.
He lived in the sand at the Isle of Man.
The kids would all sing, he would take the wrong key,
So they rode on his head in their furry donkey.

The kids couldn't hurt Jack,
They tried, tried, tried.
They dropped things on his back,
They lied, lied, lied, lied, lied.

But they couldn't stop Jack, 'or the waters lapping,
And they couldn't prevent Jack from being happy.

But they couldn't stop Jack, 'or the waters lapping,
And they couldn't prevent Jack from feeling happy.

The kids couldn't hurt Jack,
They tried, tried, tried.
They dropped things on his back
They lied, lied, lied, lied, lied.

But they couldn't stop Jack, 'or the waters lapping.
And they couldn't prevent Jack from being happy.

(I saw ya!)

z0 K

zoas23
08-07-2012, 04:04 PM
The Natal Chart of a person is often a good tool to understand what makes this person feel happy.
One man's paradise is another man's hell.

Love, Art and Philosophical knowledge* is what makes me happy.

* LOL... "philosophical knowledge" sounds like a "big word"... it's just that it's a specific type of knowledge that is different from other types of knowledge that don't make me happy.

... but we are all quite unbalanced and always leaning towards some sides and excludying others.
i.e, my quite recent birthday made me notice again a fact about myself: I LOVE presents/gifts... but my joy comes from giving them and receiving them makes me feel uneasy.
i.e,.... I know a lot of people who LOVE Yoga and are completely in love with it.... when I tried it myself... well, it was really a torture and certainly not enjoyable at all for me.
i.e.... loveless sex or "casual sex".... a lot of people love it and find happiness in it... in my own case, I feel it's very sad and empty.

Krisztian
08-07-2012, 06:47 PM
Perhaps we could keep to the question of the thread and look into the purpose of emotion and how we are affected by them...do they control us?

Emotions, in this realm, are the addictive food of humanity. When one follows the calling of our soul, which is something different from the brush paintings of advertisements, commercialism, nationalism, traditional religions, (anything most often related to) media, etc., then that person gets to be very near in a balanced state of happiness. I don't mean, few glimpses chemically generated by whatever that person is emotionally addicted to, but a well-balanced state, that is, continuous happiness. Most people will say that's not possible, or true, but it is and the closer one gets to the spiritual script of their own lives, the more natural and easy that becomes. (I mean, the script written prior to recycling back in.) 'Waking up', a cliché of sort, is about remembering the 'job' you incarnated back in again for, and living it out. That's happiness. That's why as zoas23 pointed out, it is rather different from one person to the next.

Emotions are also tied to our animal, reptilian brain, side of ourselves. So, a person that lives for the gratification of that part is usually a slave to anything external. They daily energize and feed that 'organ', a different script of the Powers That Be. The control, the subliminal string, I believe, gets to own the individual when they haven't healed themselves from certain emotions. So, this person, majority of humanity, goes from one trigger to the next.

/

My comments mean to offend no one. And they're merely my opinions. Please take that into considerations when wanting to respond directly.

Andro
08-07-2012, 08:57 PM
[...] a well-balanced state, that is, continuous happiness [...] the closer one gets to the spiritual script of their own lives, the more natural and easy that becomes.
(I mean, the script written prior to recycling back in.) 'Waking up', a cliche of sort, is about remembering the 'job' you incarnated back in again for, and living it out. That's happiness.

On Earth, we don't 'recycle'. Earth incarnations are happening simultaneously (at different 'time frequencies').
Once an incarnation is done on the physical (and on the astral), it doesn't 'recycle' back to physical Earth, but returns to its 'Source' ('Higher Self', 'Total Self', 'OverSoul' - call it what you will).

Imagine the Hand and the Fingers. The Hand is the Source/Total Self. Each Finger is an 'Incarnation' extended into different circumstances and time frequencies.
The Fingers don't get 'recycled'. We're not sequentially 'recycling' from pinky to thumb, but we are ALL of the Fingers (many more than 5, BTW) simultaneously.
The 'Hand' doesn't use one Finger at a time, but all of them together :)

And only very few Incarnations are meant/designed/designated to 'remember' who they are while still incarnated.
NOT remembering is a very powerful and much needed incarnational experience.

And even if an incarnation is designed/designated to 'remember', it doesn't automatically turn the incarnational journey into a 'bed of roses' or a 'pleasure cruise'.
Loosing the ballast/game addiction and gaining 'escape velocity' can be quite bittersweet. I certainly wouldn't describe it as 'happy'. 'Balanced' and 'Happy' are not emotional synonyms.

As always, to each their own :)

Some incarnations are deliberately designed/designated by our 'Higher Selves' to experience pain, loneliness, misery, or extreme unhappiness.
This would be the unique 'Soul Purpose' for such incarnations, and it's an integral part of the Game.
No, these incarnations will NOT be 'happy' being in tune with their 'Soul Purpose'. That's not how it works.
Thinking that all incarnated spirits would be 'happy' by fulfilling their 'Soul Purpose' is pure new age/pseudo-spiritual fantasy.

This is why (IMO) it is a very limiting perspective to correlate 'happiness' with following the (inevitable) calling of our soul.

Following this 'calling' is simply unavoidable, even if this 'calling' requires what may appear as not being 'in tune' with the calling :)
In other words, not matter what one does, it's going to exactly fulfill the requirements of each specific incarnation.
Playing 'out of tune' is also a valid incarnational experience, much needed by us (as our 'Higher Selves').

The 'goal' is not 'happiness'. Neither is it 'being in tune with one's calling', because it's unavoidable anyway.

This is a playground, and it has so much to offer, so much for us to take in, from all our simultaneous incarnational experiences.
Yes, the playground (EarthGame) IS addictive, and this is so by design. Without this 'addictive lure' - we would miss out on many amazing experiences.
However, 'eventually', the more ADVANCED Incarnational Levels in The Game are required to break these game-addictions, until we finally get the 'Game Over' message :)


My comments mean to offend no one. And they're merely my opinions. Please take that into considerations when wanting to respond directly.

Same here, and I'm glad you said it. Good thing to consider for everyone posting here :)

After all, it would be such a waste of 'time/space' to type "IMO" after every sentence... So it's better if everyone could just auto-mentally fill it in :)

Krisztian
08-07-2012, 11:15 PM
This is a great discussion!

Someone, the Gatekeepers on this side of the Realm probably, figured it out that the best way to keep souls here on Earth is to provide the addiction(s), just based on how we're wired with emotions. If one hasn't owned those experiences, they're trapped. They keep experiencing over and over and over again the same lessons, without gaining the distilled experience we call wisdom. So the addictive entertainment is yes part of the agenda, but it's an excuse on the part of the believe that that's alright. It is. But from a spiritual perspective, learning implies changing, evolving, and eventually going Home. For here on Earth, this is not Home.

A person is essentially lost here and after (or beyond, take a pick of word) if they haven't collected enough velocity to truly leave this Realm. No soul can go back to the Source, until they have owned this lifetime. There, after, beyond, it's just as confusing, and souls are just as much lost as Here. There's no difference between Here and There, if the soul hasn't evolved.

Happiness becomes eventually a state of balance. Then, that person is free within the incarnation. Free from what? Free from their human-suit, from it's chemical programming and addictions, etc. The thrill aspect of happiness, if it's emotionally sought out, is not happiness. That's just another addiction. All incarnations are meant to 'wake up'. Remember what? That we're gods! A state of continuous happiness is meant that we're free from the addictive chains of chemically addictive emotions, all based in fear. That's why the Powers That Be are into promoting violence, anger, loudness, hate, etc. That's their contract. And they're trapped also until they fulfill what they agreed to carry out.

People like to believe that all is well. In a sense, it is. But that's part of the soothing entertainment of addiction too. We're here on Earth to evolve out.

/

One more thing, I'm sorry; before one can know happiness, one will humbly admit that this incarnation, the world as we know, just doesn't seem to provide the right soulfood. So we live from the mandate of our soul that has little interest in the usual addictions of the world. Yes happiness is a state of balance (calmness, joy without reason for joy) because that's the trademark of spirit. Human-suit, it's trademark is instability of emotions, continuously labile.

Ghislain
08-08-2012, 01:48 AM
z0 K

I was a Beatles fan, but I liked The Who though only listened to their music third party so to speak.
I can appreciate the talent of some of these super groups, but didn’t get that certain buzz from them
that I got from the Beatles. I don’t get the “buzz” from The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin and Pink
Floyd for example, but understand why others do.

I do get the feeling from certain tracks of theirs like Pinball Wizard or My Generation; like Paint it
Black or Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown; like Whole Lotta Love or Stairway to Heaven; like Money
or Another Brick in the Wall, but I get that feeling with almost all of the Beatles tracks. I think it may
be more due to familiarity than that of the music per se. I have three older brothers that had
between them all the Beatles albums, but then some of them were into Floyd, Hendrix and others
however not in such as big way.

I didn’t think I knew “Happy Jack”, but I played it on YouTube and recognised it. Thanks


Zoas

I find it hard to trust ones horoscope as it is a complicated matter and I’m sure most people who
profess to be astrologists are not putting in all that work...or maybe they are and I find that hard to
believe because of my own laziness lol.

I would like to see my Natal Chart created by two or three different Astrologists to see how they
compare.

I’m not sure what “Love” is...the jury is still out on that one...”art” covers so many different genres, I
guess I could say I like art, but probably not in the same way as others and of course I like
“philosophy” as that is the main reason I’m here.

You wrote, “... but we are all quite unbalanced and always leaning towards some sides and
excludying others.”


It made me think how predictable, and dare I say boring, life would be if we didn't all have these
different leanings.

It is our individual idiosyncrasies that make life interesting and fun?
Perhaps this would disappear if we eliminated emotion :(

Could one say that happiness is contained in our imperfection?

Krisztian


Emotions, in this realm, are the addictive food of humanity

I imagine that is why some people are happy when they are sad or angry etc... any emotion will do
so long as they can feel.


When one follows the calling of our soul... then that person gets to be very near in a
balanced state of happiness.

I haven’t got to this point, but I can imagine the feeling...for me it’s a feeling of getting to a point of
completion that keeps moving further away, but sometimes you get that little bit closer than you do
at other times.


it is and the closer one gets to the spiritual script of their own lives, the more natural and
easy that becomes. (I mean, the script written prior to recycling back in.)

This is like the Indian Samsara "continuous flow"; it is the repeating cycle of birth, life, death and
rebirth. Buddha said of this that there is no beginning or end. It seems to fit with the fractal nature
of everything theory.


'Waking up', a cliché of sort, is about remembering the 'job' you incarnated back in again for,
and living it out.

Remembering the job or to put it another way my purpose sounds like Nirvana, peace of mind, but
then I have to ask myself “what then”? Perhaps there can be no peace of mind. :(

Could the common denominator of happiness be peace of mind?

Androgynus


NOT remembering is a very powerful and much needed incarnational experience.
This has been in my train of thought for some time...it would make sense that if the purpose of being
here was to experience things then remembering “what is” may defeat that objective.


Playing 'out of tune' is also a valid incarnational experience, much needed by us (as our
'Higher Selves').

Not sure if this sounds mad, but when I was younger and used to play the fruit machines I would
purposely not hold a winning combination if the chance came up as I thought that was what the
machine expected me to do lol...I thought I could throw the machine off guard by doing the
unexpected. Ooops I just meant to think that. :o


This is a playground, and it has so much to offer, so much for us to take in, from all our
simultaneous incarnational experiences.
Yes, the playground (EarthGame) IS addictive, and this is so by design. Without this 'addictive lure' -
we would miss out on many amazing experiences.
However, 'eventually', the more ADVANCED Incarnational Levels in The Game are required to break
these game-addictions, until we finally get the 'Game Over' message

I wonder what level I have achieved so far...novice maybe? :)

Could you say where happiness fits in with this philosophy?

Happiness seems so illusive...one does things that one thinks will instil happiness just to be
disappointed, but then, when one least expects it, you do something that does instil happiness and
still the reason eludes us.

Perhaps the pursuit of happiness is an oxymoron because maybe it is happiness that has to find
you. \o/

Krisztian


Happiness becomes eventually a state of balance. Then, that person is free within the
incarnation. Free from what? Free from their human-suit, from it's chemical programming and
addictions, etc. The thrill aspect of happiness, if it's emotionally sought out, is not happiness. That's
just another addiction. All incarnations are meant to 'wake up'. Remember what? That we're gods! A
state of continuous happiness is meant that we're free from the addictive chains of chemically
addictive emotions, all based in fear. That's why the Powers That Be are into promoting violence,
anger, loudness, hate, etc. That's their contract. And they're trapped also until they fulfil what they
agreed to carry out.

People like to believe that all is well. In a sense, it is. But that's part of the soothing entertainment of
addiction too. We're here on Earth to evolve out.

That is almost a complete description of my current belief, but to take it one bit further, imagine
caterpillars that have an impulse to devour as much greenery as they can before they pupate into
butterflies.

We are the caterpillar but the greenery is experience, the butterfly the spirit.

Do you think that we have concluded what happiness is? Is it peace of mind, balance?

Ghislain

Nibiru
08-08-2012, 03:40 AM
Do you think that we have concluded what happiness is? Is it peace of mind, balance?


I was going to say contentment, which is pretty synonymous with peace of mind.

z0 K
08-08-2012, 07:41 PM
z0 K

I was a Beatles fan, but I liked The Who though only listened to their music third party so to speak.
I can appreciate the talent of some of these super groups, but didn’t get that certain buzz from them
that I got from the Beatles. I don’t get the “buzz” from The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin and Pink
Floyd for example, but understand why others do.

I do get the feeling from certain tracks of theirs like Pinball Wizard or My Generation; like Paint it
Black or Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown; like Whole Lotta Love or Stairway to Heaven; like Money
or Another Brick in the Wall, but I get that feeling with almost all of the Beatles tracks. I think it may
be more due to familiarity than that of the music per se. I have three older brothers that had
between them all the Beatles albums, but then some of them were into Floyd, Hendrix and others
however not in such as big way.

I didn’t think I knew “Happy Jack”, but I played it on YouTube and recognised it. Thanks

Ghislain

I brought up the Who in comparison to the Beatles because the aim of this thread is about happiness and both songs had “happy” titles. There is a great difference in the mood of both songs that “relate” to happiness. I remember when “Happiness is a Warm Gun” first came out. Popular rumor here in the US was the song was about experimentation with heroin: happiness is a syringe loaded with it.

The song is not a happy one. The Beatles present a much happier song with it’s “Getting Better” all the time from Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band. Basically it’s about a person that is finding bliss by doing the best he can.

Of course this is my opinion. And I have no way of knowing what Lennon and McCartney really meant. Consider “I am the Walrus.” The last refrain is repeated many times, “Everybody Smoke Pot.” That was a tremendous influence so everybody smoked pot. McCartney later said they were saying, “Everybody Um Pa.” It didn’t really matter what he said; the message received was “Everybody Smoke Pot.”

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=138

Happy Jack by the Who is, as I see it, about a developmentally impaired man (Village idiot) who is permanently wired to be happy. So even the cruelties of the ignorant could not prevent Jack from being happy. Jack is in a continuous state of bliss.

Pete Townshend “reported the song is about a man who slept on the beach near where Townshend vacationed as a child. The children on the beach would laugh at the man and once buried him in the sand. However, the man never seemed to mind and only smiled in response.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Jack_(song)

The great mythologist/historian Joseph Campbell said:

“Find a place inside where there’s joy, and the joy will burn out the pain.”

“Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors where there were only walls.”

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/joseph_campbell.html

The human body has loads of bliss receptors. That’s where the cannabinoids in pot go. The human body has its own bliss hormones. One of them, anandamide “is an endogenous cannaboid neurotransmitter. The name is taken from the Sanskrit word ananda, which means ‘bliss, delight,’ and amide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandamide

Bliss doesn’t seem to be on Plutchik’s pinwheel of emotions.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bliss

z0 K

Krisztian
08-08-2012, 10:10 PM
I was going to say contentment, which is pretty synonymous with peace of mind.

That's an excellent term Nibiru, contentment is. Peace of mind, also fits perfectly to describe what I meant. I used state of balance because not one emotion rules over another. It's at a state of rest, inside the person that is. The personality has taken a backseat.

With right commitment, one can reach that state.

It's not a lofty endeavour.

Ghislain
08-09-2012, 12:02 AM
z0 K

In the link you posted it defines Bliss as perfect happiness; serene joy. So it has
two of the three entries on the Joy petal of Plutchik’s wheel of emotions.

On the subject of ‘Happy Jack’, I have met a few people that have been diagnosed as mentally
challenged who seem to be consistently happy...does this prove that ignorance is bliss?

Is it knowledge that is the barrier to happiness?

Krisztian

When you say...


With right commitment, one can reach that state.

Is that a state of no emotion or all emotion just balanced?

I think z0 k’s link to Anandamide is further proof that emotions are chemically linked.
People rant on about substance abuse while making every endeavour to achieve happiness.
Is this not just the same thing...searching for the next fix?

Are we any closer to realising the purpose of emotions or is this going to prove to be as
difficult as understanding why we are here? Are we being used, kept in a drug induced
state for some ulterior motive? :confused: Is that a bit paranoid? lol

Who can say that finding happiness in the ‘normal’ accepted way is any better than finding it in an
Entheogen. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Entheogen) defines the use of Entheogens as ‘generating the divine within’.

If someone offers you happiness...Just Say No! ;)

Ghislain

Andro
08-09-2012, 12:10 AM
does this prove that ignorance is bliss?
Is it knowledge that is the barrier to happiness?

I was once told about this Hebrew saying by a jewish rabbi whom I spoke with:

תכלית הידיעה: שלא נדע

Hope I spelled/formulated it right... Look it up :)

And here's another saying, one of my own this time, one I've just come up with:

If you're happy and you know it, then you're not (happy).

:cool:

Krisztian
08-09-2012, 02:59 PM
Well, happiness doesn't find a person by accident. It's something we create; it's a byproduct of living a balanced existence. Our thoughts determine the quality of our lives.

That's why everyone has a chance at being happy.

Andro
08-09-2012, 03:35 PM
That's why everyone has a chance at being happy.

Everyone has a chance at winning the lottery, as well... 'Chance' is irrelevant to me. The concept of 'chance' is (to me) merely a matter psycho-statistics.

Only what actually happens is in fact what actually happens :)

I prefer to deal with what IS (brought into manifestation by the INEVITABILITY of NEED, rather than with what I may or may not have a 'chance' at).


Our thoughts determine the quality of our lives.

This is only half the formula :)

What determines our thoughts? (NOT rhetorical :))

It may sound paradoxical to some, but for me, surrendering to Inevitability and Choicelessness is actually the greatest key to Freedom.

Anything else, is an attempt to control what we only have the illusion that we can actually control :)

IMO (:))

z0 K
08-09-2012, 10:32 PM
z0 K

In the link you posted it defines Bliss as perfect happiness; serene joy. So it has
two of the three entries on the Joy petal of Plutchik’s wheel of emotions.

On the subject of ‘Happy Jack’, I have met a few people that have been diagnosed as mentally
challenged who seem to be consistently happy...does this prove that ignorance is bliss?

Is it knowledge that is the barrier to happiness?



Ghislain


OK on Plutchik Wheel of Emotions if you want to say bliss is serene joy since joy is the center of one of the petals in the wheel of emotions. However, I believe bliss is more than serene joy. Bliss contains an element of pure satisfaction.

When considering if ignorance is bliss we should explore what is meant by ignorance.

To me “ignorance” is to ignore information either deliberately or unintentionally as with a lack of knowledge or unawareness. So ignorance is bliss in that one can choose to ignore input that does not follow your bliss.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ignorance

Consider the synonym, "innocence." The definition for innocence is “freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil: Blamelessness:" without censure.

I don’t think knowledge is a barrier to happiness any more than ignorance would be. It’s all about following your bliss. First you have to find it. It’s the undertaking of individuals.

z0 K

Ghislain
08-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Saying “ignorance is bliss” is similar to saying “What you don't know cannot hurt you.”(in the emotional
sense I guess)

I think I posted this somewhere else, but it is from a poem...

“On a Distant Prospect of Eton College,” by Thomas Gray

“Where ignorance is bliss, ‘Tis folly to be wise.’”

The reason I like it so much is that it seems to fit because the more one learns only makes one aware of
how little is actually known. Even the things we take as factual are more than likely theories that fit for
now.

When I chose to question ‘happiness’, deep down I had my reservations as I like to think there are some
things one shouldn’t question, but if one really wants the truth then nothing should be exempt from scrutiny.

In the book,” The Cloud Atlas” by David Mitchell, in the chapter titled, “An Orison of Sonmi 451”, the character
Sonmi is a genetically-engineered clone used to serve at a fast food outlet...totally subservient to the general public
due to the drugs that are administered to them; “Soap” that repressed the expression of personality and "Amnesiads"
designed to deaden curiosity.

Sonmi’s story begins when she answers back to a customer...someone has not been giving Sonmi her
drugs...she was thinking...

The clones were told that when their time came they would be taken by boat to a beautiful Eden...Can’t
remember the name of it now...but it was all they looked forward too.

The fact was the clones were taken to a ship that was a factory where they were slaughtered and processed
into nutrients that were fed back to working clones...and they fell for it...?

I like te saying "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

Many people live in a self imposed world of acceptance and seem to find happiness as it is easier to accept than
to challenge

What is happiness, and why do we strive to achieve it?

Ghislain

Purplexity
09-22-2012, 03:39 AM
Happiness can be simply defined as a state of well-being characterized by emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy. Thats the definition but after reading this thread I smiled at the video and song lyrics.
Essentially, this forum makes me happy. But I would like to point out that happiness can also be misunderstood. For instance there are over 600 emotions that can be named in the English language so a person may feel a wide array of emotions yet people will categorize it under anger because they do not have the understanding. Happiness is simple but can become so complex when ones intentions are set on disguising their other emotions under happy. Same with all the rest, When I say the word God I have a mechanics imprinted in my brain, a set of controls that allow you to control time and navigate through space, but when someone says they feel despair they may be feeling depressed, greif, distraught, sad, disappointed, hurt all together.


http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1135/colourwheelandemotions1.jpg

I find it humorous how humans were designed to get addicted to particular emotions that they enjoy and hate emotions that make them feel bad but only when they loose the source of what made them feel bad do they realize they miss it, not necessarily want it back but will do almost anything to reproduce old emotions and cling to them.
Some wizards were masters of emotion, especially inducing certain emotions into the receiver using words or scenarios and or a quest lol. Eh idk.

Ghislain
09-26-2012, 02:33 PM
Purplexity

If we look at emotions as colours then as in the Newton Disc we could mix all emotion to form one.

Mixing all colour frequency creates white, any imbalance of the colours would grey it and thus following
on from this logic and your wheel above I believe it is the thinking monkey mind that separates the emotions
and by quieting the monkey all emotion would become one; white; a return to the light.

Balance is the key and perfection doesn't allow for seperate emotions.

So one could say seek balance not happiness.

Maybe :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3NXsgjPSQo

Ghislain

Awani
09-26-2012, 05:50 PM
Regarding the mention of contentment I strongly disagree. Contentment is the root of all apathy. To be satisfied with the status quo is problem number one. For me it does not represent peace of mind at all unless you want to live inside the bliss of ignorance.


That's the first one should do so that one can enjoy the piece in the way the author intended.

I think most artist don't know themselves or they don't want others to know. Art is in the eye of the beholder, always.

:cool:

solomon levi
09-26-2012, 07:48 PM
Words are very magical; they have a subjective aspect and an objective one in a way.
They can be used to define and concentrate or to confuse and diffuse. I'm sure a dictionary
will tell us contentment is being satiated or appeased or comfortable ...
http://www.google.com/search?q=define+content&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGRP_enUS501

But in my magical approach, contentment is about content, the root of the word, and those who have
first-handedly/meditatively studied their minds know that the content of the container/mind is the mind itself -
the content and the container are the same. The dictionary also aligned content and capacity, which is an
amazing word for the head/cap/capital... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/capacity

So to take contentment as only a sleeper's ignorance is a small and specified aspect of the word.
When one is present, lacking nothing, full of Presence, contentment is an accurate description of this state IMO.

How we define things is everything, is magic, is dreaming, is reflective of one's identity/definition of oneself.

Purplexity
09-26-2012, 11:15 PM
Is it then possible to throw away all the magic in words and art because of ones ignorance to behold such things, I like to think of myself as a high wizard as I've seen the possibility's of my future, assuming I don't kill myself I will be very old and have much more experience than I do now and have lots of sexual encounters. According to my dream T_T. But I must have done something special at some point in time along my life's timeline because I saw myself roughly 60 years old having intercourse with my wife who I made my high priestess Y_Y.
It makes me wonder if we all have these magical capability's, ordinary things such as a witch using the spell Ridiculous or a wizard conjuring a confusion spell that does not conflict with ones beliefs means those willing to listen to our magic are subconsciously wanting much more but are content with the reassurance of words... When I say much more I say that I believe that a Divine Orgy realm exists, filled with sacred acts of sex. But here in this realm confusion, guilt and regrets corrupt the mind with dark energy's and emotions leaving us with an impure world with everyone seeking love but leaving them ignorant to the hate. Depends on the eye of the beholder, when they experience hate or love those experiences are attached to certain emotions and clear a path for actions, words and thoughts to create future experiences. For instance you decide to go on a holiday, that act in itself opens up an infinite amount of new possibility's that range from meeting new people to doing new things. Again, to make you happier in this vessel. Which makes me wonder if some people need to be sad, to be happy. If sadness satisfys their emotional needs to be happy then they have a conscious depth to them.
When someone who is sad (blue) meets someone who is red (angry) then combined, purple is an option.. The angry person may feel disgust or the sad person may feel disgust, that's the preconception. Anyway, just ideas I'm still tossing up.

Nibiru
09-27-2012, 01:53 AM
Regarding the mention of contentment I strongly disagree. Contentment is the root of all apathy. To be satisfied with the status quo is problem number one. For me it does not represent peace of mind at all unless you want to live inside the bliss of ignorance.


I probably should of explained what the word contentment means to me before stating that contentment=happiness. When I say contentment, what I mean is recognizing that the current moment is perfect. When I'm content, everything is as it should be. When I focus on the disharmony that appears to exists in the world, I tend to loose this state of contentment. That's not to say that I can't experience a perfect moment of contentment/happiness while I'm participating in a protest march for a cause that I feel passionately about. I can also experience contentment/happiness by temporally transcending the knowledge of this suffering that I would love more than anything to change.

By contentment, I do not envision a nation of mindless sheep hypnotized by the television and media. I imagine a yogi in a perfect state of meditation, or the chills you get as you listen to a beautiful song, that final moment of surrender after an intense and enduring struggle, the feeling you get after any accomplishment that you've worked hard towards, nirvana, non-attachment, lack of desire, etc. I feel that one can want and work towards changing the world for the better in the long-term time-frame, while at the same time experience contentment and happiness with where one is in this very moment right now.

Andro
09-27-2012, 02:32 AM
When I say contentment, what I mean is recognizing that the current moment is perfect. When I'm content, everything is as it should be.

Quoth 'The Way of the Samurai' (a.k.a. 'Hagakure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure)'):


There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment.
A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment.
If one fully understands the present moment, there is nothing left to do, and nothing else to pursue.

Other good quotes from the same source HERE (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2660-Great-Quote-Collection&p=24867#post24867).

Purplexity
09-27-2012, 03:05 AM
Why in many cultures do people use flagellants, mortification of the flesh. Sometimes you see holy people doing it. Seems to make them happy :/

Ghislain
11-02-2012, 01:19 PM
While adding to the thread Spirit Science (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2235-Spirit-Science&p=25431#post25431) I watched video 15 Power of the Heart and thought it deserved a place in this thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7c3AVj66ahg

Could the desire for happiness be the road to Psychophysiological Coherence?

Ghislain

Awani
11-02-2012, 05:06 PM
What Makes Us Happy and Why?

Purpose.

:cool:

solomon levi
11-02-2012, 08:59 PM
There is a happiness that comes for no reason at all.
Maintaining conditional happiness is not worth the effort for me
to fight change.
What makes us anything?
Since when is happiness the universal prize? (I know no one is saying that, but...)

Happiness is not questioning (whether you are happy or not).
Happiness is not knowing (what happiness is).
Of course, that's not really "happiness", but I would associate it with peace/shalom/shanti/equilibrium/perfection.
(not fixed perfection, but fluid perfection; and eventually, the fluid perfection becomes fixed fluidity).

How do we not know what happiness is? It is enough to be uncertain. Then many things can fulfill
the condition of happiness instead of one thing. Ultimately, we realise anything can fulfill it, and
then nothing in particular fulfills it.

Ghislain
10-28-2013, 05:57 PM
I found this group of talks on TED about happiness.

What makes us happy? (9 talks) (http://www.ted.com/playlists/4/what_makes_us_happy.html)


Ghislain

Krisztian
11-02-2013, 06:31 PM
When the soul has been fed, meaning, a dreamt experience is now experienced in physical reality by the spirit of a man or woman. All physical reality is an afterthought needing to be experienced for wisdom (to be shelved in the library we call the soul). Experience(s) is release from the original agenda of a soul, freedom from needing to be in physical existence a little less and by it's illusionary limits.

"Don't know why I am happy but I am," said by a common mind.

"I am happy because I manifested my joy," said the Sage.

Ghislain
11-02-2013, 11:06 PM
Krisztian, I guess you may relate more to video number 7.

However I think there is more than one way to gain what we call happiness.

The 9 video's are quite diverse, but all have relevance.

Ghislain

Krisztian
11-03-2013, 12:56 AM
. . . . I guess you may relate more to video number 7.

I followed the work of Csíkszentmihályi, he's over at University of Chicago, or at least when I studied.

For me, pardon me, but non of the listed ones fit. Illumination and initiation play great part in happiness, and having a listen to spirit. Buddhism for me is missing the point, and I find it's origins contradictory to its modern conception.

But it's all entertaining. It is what it is.

III
11-03-2013, 02:15 AM
I had an interesting experience about 10 years ago now. I was 6 months or so into some metabolic and neurological healing when, while talking to somebody on the phone something "connected" in my head and I suddenly said "Oh! Now I can be happy". Something very noticeable had changed very suddenly. It was like something had been missing and suddenly it wasn't, like throwing a switch. It didn't turn on happiness, it only made it noticeably possible.

Seth-Ra
11-03-2013, 02:43 AM
I probably should of explained what the word contentment means to me before stating that contentment=happiness. When I say contentment, what I mean is recognizing that the current moment is perfect. When I'm content, everything is as it should be. When I focus on the disharmony that appears to exists in the world, I tend to loose this state of contentment. That's not to say that I can't experience a perfect moment of contentment/happiness while I'm participating in a protest march for a cause that I feel passionately about. I can also experience contentment/happiness by temporally transcending the knowledge of this suffering that I would love more than anything to change.

By contentment, I do not envision a nation of mindless sheep hypnotized by the television and media. I imagine a yogi in a perfect state of meditation, or the chills you get as you listen to a beautiful song, that final moment of surrender after an intense and enduring struggle, the feeling you get after any accomplishment that you've worked hard towards, nirvana, non-attachment, lack of desire, etc. I feel that one can want and work towards changing the world for the better in the long-term time-frame, while at the same time experience contentment and happiness with where one is in this very moment right now.

Im am inclined to agree with the above here.

All extremes, of "happiness" and "sorrow" are but momentary focuses, and they do balance out, we just consciously like to focus on one more than the other.

To really see and be "happy" (to a non-extreme state, i non-polar state) is to be content.

Ignorance's bliss is not true contentment, its simply fear masked as joy. (those who do not want to know, are so due to the fear of what it means - fear of the unknown to them. A self-circulating poison.)

Those that do want to know and to see, will do so, as its their nature, regardless of upbringing; ignorance has no sway nor bliss - for them the ignorance can be cured, but it wont be for the self-perpetuating people that grow their ignorance into stupidity.

Nevertheless, the happiness that arises, being perfectly stable in the word of "content", does not remove a sense of purpose - if it did, it would not be True to the context of the subject matter; but rather would be as Dev said, a gateway to apathy, and resulting back to fear/ignorance/stupidity (if it hast yet, let it be known that "stupidity" is the self-perpetuation of ignorance.)
True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages continued action and purpose, exploration and experience - without long-term judgements of "good/bad, happy/sad" - but rather, happy/content with what Is at every moment of being - present, possible future, and all past.


That which fosters a nihilistic notion of Spirit, you may think of as a true "satan"/"adversary" of the Spirit - that is to say, a rebellious factor, creating the illusion of choice, and change, destruction - all to allow the continued expansion/expression and reconstruction of the Spirit itself. The adversary is, in essence, the "ego" of the Spirit on a Macro scale - wanting to stagnate and become absolute nothingness - cease existing on all levels/realms/notions, because it fosters the false happiness in not-knowing, the false contentment in apathy.
It is part of the flavors of Fire/Destruction, that can be skillfully used in looking deeper and "Knowing thy self" (Spirit included) all the more. Hence the illusionary nature of the "Shadow". Its there, as a jest, and serves the opposite end.

So, logically (if it were linear), it would seem that the destruction of things, the apathy and sorrow, is just the Black Phase, and we move into the happiness of knowing, the contentment with ourselves and of all things - then with that grown into the Red phase of our being - we delve back into the Black around us, to transmute. This is why the contentment (True Contentment) does not foster the apathy or stagnation, but rather encourages to go higher/deeper with its joy, not having connected to any particular thing/person/event - but to all, and grow that over and over (so once you get to the end of the linear, it becomes circular, but begins to jump octaves/levels - circles within circles.)


I think i expressed that clearly... my apologies if not, and i think i'll end it here before i begin another circle of thought within the same post (i hate when i get redundant.)
;)






~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
11-03-2013, 09:28 AM
The originating question to this thread was,


why do we have emotional feelings when logic may be a better survival tool.

I would like to see people deeply question the reasons for their feelings, where they come from, what
purpose do they serve, how controlled are we by them and could we function without them.

I appreciate all the comments made about happiness;

Krisztian on your point about Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Csikszentmihalyi), he says...


people are happiest when they are in a state of flow— a state of concentration or complete
absorption with the activity at hand and the situation. It is a state in which people are so
involved in an activity that nothing else seems to matter.

I can really relate to that, it explains some of the weird things people do; a never ending
string of surprises. Also meditation comes to mind <- no pun intended, as a pseudo-absorption
into no-reality.

Seth, I can relate to Nibiru’s slant on contentment from the quote you posted, but notice how
contentment is temporary, for some it may last for some time, but temporary non-the-less and
as you point out they “are but momentary focuses”. You said “Ignorance's bliss is not true
contentment”, I have to disagree with you there, I believe this is how we live most of our
lives, in pure ignorance, and some find a sort of bliss in that, burying themselves in actions
such as sports or socialising, entertainment, be it a film, a show, a book, a party etc... while
others in the world are starving or being abused and down-trodden sometimes to the benefit
of those that are buried in their ignorant bliss. I am not trying to be “holier than thou” I am
equally guilty of this ignorant bliss. As an example, what do we know of the world
economy? That is for the economists and the likes, it could all collapse into chaos
tomorrow, but until then we still go about our business in ignorant bliss. There are many
examples like this and I’m sure each person reading this thread could come up with another
unique one.

If we look at “The path integral formulation of quantum mechanics” we could start here,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/5/4/a540e46d9628b0786a0e7466b5ba44ca.png

going through to here,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/a/4/ea4bd1a663081fdbcdf366a4e5818add.png

and hopefully we end up here.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/b/b/2bb79e7f3c4af7168c1d1927f0a1c510.png

I don’t have a clue what any of that was about...perhaps there are those among us that could
explain it.

The point is we all find our level of ignorance that makes us comfortable and we live in it.
Ignorance is not stupidity, for most of us it is an acceptable necessity.

Seth, you go on to say, “True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages
continued action and purpose, exploration and experience”. I absolutely concur; it is what
drives us, as being temporary in nature, our search for continuing happiness is our driving
fuel.

This brings me back to Krisztian, you ended your last post with a statement,


It is what it is

but that is how emotions are always looked at ‘they are what they are’, and my intention
when starting this thread was to ask and debate ‘what are they' and what purpose do they
serve; why do I have a need to be happy?

I guess, if I wanted to create a stand-alone machine that could continuously evolve I would
have to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached and a reward
system that kept it moving toward that unreachable goal.

Some may argue that our happiness should not be questioned, but I would argue that if no one
questioned our happiness then we would be no more than emotional zombies living our lives
like the Eloi in H.G. Wells’ “The Time Machine”, wallowing in our endorphins.

I agree with Dev’s statement that contentment is the gateway to apathy.

So is it agreed that happiness is a driving force? If it is what is it driving us toward?

and

My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.

Thanks

Ghislain

Seth-Ra
11-03-2013, 05:15 PM
The originating question to this thread was,


why do we have emotional feelings when logic may be a better survival tool?


We have them as part of our being because mere survival is not living.



where they come from,

Soul/Divine.



what purpose do they serve,


Depth to experience, intuitive resonance/communing with others (sympathy/empathy), fuels for more experiences/frequencies of Spirit.



how controlled are we by them and could we function without them?

Control depends on your level of mastery of them - it varies by person and discipline.
Could you function without them - like a Vulcan? Not likely without some kinda trauma or defect that flips the switch off; everything else would just be suppression and that lid wont hold forever, not to mention how bleak things would be without that deeper level of sensing and feeling and experiencing.




Seth, I can relate to Nibiru’s slant on contentment from the quote you posted, but notice how contentment is temporary, for some it may last for some time, but temporary non-the-less and as you point out they “are but momentary focuses”.

No, i said that the extremes (dualistic) of "happiness" and "sorrow" are momentary focuses. The True contentment is ever present/prevalent once known.


You said “Ignorance's bliss is not true
contentment”, I have to disagree with you there, I believe this is how we live most of our lives, in pure ignorance, and some find a sort of bliss in that, burying themselves in actions such as sports or socialising, entertainment, be it a film, a show, a book, a party etc... while others in the world are starving or being abused and down-trodden sometimes to the benefit of those that are buried in their ignorant bliss. I am not trying to be “holier than thou” I am equally guilty of this ignorant bliss. As an example, what do we know of the world economy? That is for the economists and the likes, it could all collapse into chaos tomorrow, but until then we still go about our business in ignorant bliss. There are many examples like this and I’m sure each person reading this thread could come up with another unique one.

Im afraid i cant agree with that. There is a difference between illusionary "bliss" in not-knowing, and True Contentment in understanding.

I also give no credence to an imaginary infrastructure for fake monetary exchanges. Its an illusion put in place to govern and facilitate certain actions in a game called "economics" - it has no real value outside of its made-up function, and seeing that it is made-up, or understanding how the game works, is neither here nor there.

It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.

What is real is what is left after the solve et; let the immanent collapse happen, and see the real worth of the fake system/money, vs actual people and their needs.

Also, i'll say that just because we dont study something to mastery (meaningless or not, in the long run) does not = ignorance of it. Knowledge is infinite and infinitely misleading. Understanding is where wisdom is found. Try to "know" everything and you'll chase your tail for all eternity. Try to Understand it, and you can find the Contentment and Wisdom - maybe have conversations with King Solomon, etc. ;)



The point is we all find our level of ignorance that makes us comfortable and we live in it. Ignorance is not stupidity, for most of us it is an acceptable necessity.

That may be the case for some (finding the 'comfort zone'), but it is not a necessity, even if it is a desire/want.
I did not say that ignorance is stupidity; to the contrary, i said ignorance can be cured. Self-perpetuated ignorance, however, is stupidity, and you cant fix stupid (as they wont allow themselves to be fixed, by you, me, or even themselves.)


Seth, you go on to say, “True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages continued action and purpose, exploration and experience”. I absolutely concur; it is what drives us, as being temporary in nature, our search for continuing happiness is our driving fuel.

While im glad we concur here, i think there may be a misunderstanding as to why. lol

The driving fuel isnt because its our temporary nature - its because its our nature to explore and move forward, to not stagnate. That has less to do with emotion, and more to do with why we are here in general (experience, know self; Macro & Micro). The True Contentment, simply gives the emotional and mental stability to fully utilize this nature we have.


:)





~Seth-Ra

III
11-03-2013, 10:02 PM
Seth, you go on to say, “True happiness/contentment as is being stated, however, encourages
continued action and purpose, exploration and experience”. I absolutely concur; it is what
drives us, as being temporary in nature, our search for continuing happiness is our driving
fuel.

This brings me back to Krisztian, you ended your last post with a statement,

"It is what it is"

but that is how emotions are always looked at ‘they are what they are’, and my intention
when starting this thread was to ask and debate ‘what are they' and what purpose do they
serve; why do I have a need to be happy?

I guess, if I wanted to create a stand-alone machine that could continuously evolve I would have to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached and a reward system that kept it moving toward that unreachable goal.

Some may argue that our happiness should not be questioned, but I would argue that if no one questioned our happiness then we would be no more than emotional zombies living our lives like the Eloi in H.G. Wells’ “The Time Machine”, wallowing in our endorphins.

I agree with Dev’s statement that contentment is the gateway to apathy.

So is it agreed that happiness is a driving force? If it is what is it driving us toward?

and My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.

Thanks

Ghislain


I guess, if I wanted to create a stand-alone machine that could continuously evolve I would have to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached and a reward system that kept it moving toward that unreachable goal.

and My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.

Hi Ghislain,

Now perhaps I'll take a stab at the question. "Evolution" is an open ended game; "to create some sort of goal for it, one that could not actually be reached". "Evolution" itself seems to fill the bill. Evolution is it's own goal

So is it agreed that happiness is a driving force? If it is what is it driving us toward?

No, it is not agreed that "happiness" is a driving force. There is no way in hell I would have done this life, even once if happiness were the driving force or even a goal. It was a battle all the way from shortly after birth to stay alive. I was sick constantly, I had an abusive psychotic mother. I had to start waking up at two in order to survive her. There was nothing happy about it. My life was every bit as survival driven as that of a primitive hunter-gatherer. I'm still having to fight for survival. If Codex Alimentarius is ever enforced in the USA it will KILL me and millions of others. I would have to put a lifetime supply of my necessary for life vitamins in a deep freeze, and for my children and maybe grandchildren to survive. I know people in other countries who are doing that. They are ordering all they can from the USA where there is still freedom of nutrition, and freezing a lifetime supply in case we stop having freedom of nutrition. I take it somewhat personally that they are in effect, trying to kill off my entire family and everybody like us, say another 30-70 million or so in the USA alone. I doubt that it really has anything to do with me personally. It's all about power and control and money for those doing it. The effect is condemning 1/3 of the people in afflicted countries to a lifetime of misery of induced chronic illness. It gets far worse from here. The diseases we are seeing now are in the canaries. The next wave is not so mild and far more mysterious. If Codex Alimentarius does take effect in the USA the probability of solving this problem all the way goes way down

As I have now mostly solved the problem, even while it's killing me, now all I need to do is carry it to my 12 year old self to write it up in such a way that the research establishment doesn't go off on such a bizarrely wrong headed research path for 60 years. So my groundhog day is about 60 years long in order to be able to "back-mask" the information needed to an earlier "time" in my life. It may take another 1000 or 10,000 or 100,000 or more tries. It is too much to be carried in "temporal" memory or pass in a quick channelling. It has to be incorporated into my very structure.

Is that "happiness"? It seems more like desperation to me.

Earl Nightingale put it this way "Success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal".

As the character in ALL YOU ZOMBIES by RAH said "I know where I came from, what about the rest of you?"

I know what has been driving me all my life and it hasn't been any search for happiness, whatever that is, it's been personal and family survival, and incidentally hundreds of millions of others.

My question still stands, “can we exist without emotion?”.


So now we get to it. Here I am, a systems analyst to my core, an extreme intellectual stance and I practice Tantric Alchemy requiring mastering the emotional (see the J.R. Haule synopsis posted on another thread) and using it as a major alchemical tool. It might seem contradictory to some. Having and working with "emotions" is at the heart of alchemy. They are a key to having a worthwhile LIFE. They are something we have only when alive.

Ghislain
11-04-2013, 11:53 AM
If you look at the three last posts I think there is a bit of misunderstanding in each, which is causing
some crossed lines.

I should have said the pursuit of happiness is the driving force...it is when happiness is being
achieved that there is the danger of contentment and apathy.

Seth, for me you have addressed the issue most succinctly, but I still feel we are missing the point as
we are talking/writing here under the influence of emotions. Perhaps the question could be better
answered by a sociopath. <- pun intended :).

You said “The driving fuel isnt because its our temporary nature”

I didn’t mean “our” temporary nature; I was talking of the temporary nature of happiness and
contentment. Perhaps the comma should have been left out...grammar isn’t my strong point :(

We seem to have a trait of desensitisation, for example, we see it in what we find horrific in films
today. My mother wouldn’t let me watch the old King Kong films; she thought they were
terrifying...watch them today and they are laughable. I believe it is the same with happiness, have it
for too long and you grow weary of it, taking it for granted and wanting more; it’s like a drug or it is a
drug, take it away and a person will go to the ends of the earth to retrieve it or they will go into
withdrawal and pine for it.

Emotions! Just Say No!

Like Joni Mitchell said in “Big Yellow Taxi”: Don’t it all seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve
got till it’s gone.

I think we may know the what (endorphins), but the when, how and why are a little vague.

You say, “mere survival is not living”, then what is?...and what for?

Is it not an illusory picture that what we are doing is anything other than merely surviving?

Please note my questioning comes from curiosity not any form of depression ...or maybe it does :confused:;
you’ll have to excuse me, I may be under the influence of emotion.

It’s fun to talk of money and economics as illusionary, but take it away and it won’t seem so
illusionary. I think we are about to find that out as the ridiculous monetarist system we have
created comes crashing down. It was never sustainable, it’s a pyramid system and they made
pyramid selling illegal for the very same reason. <-bit off topic sorry

“It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.”

Then I have to ask, why play the game at all...does reason not come into it? What do we get from
playing the game...more emotion? Don’t get me wrong, I play the game and enjoy doing so, but for
a moment I have it on pause to ask why?

Am I playing a game or am I a puppet being played with?; rewarded or punished with emotion! I’m
like a junky whore; happiness is the drug but who’s my pimp?

“ its our nature to explore and move forward, to not stagnate. That has less to do with emotion, and
more to do with why we are here in general (experience, know self; Macro & Micro). The True
Contentment, simply gives the emotional and mental stability to fully utilize this nature we have.”

With respect Seth, do you have all your answers? If not then you still search, but what are you
searching for? If you are not searching could you be missing something? It’s a sort of paradox.

I sometimes feel content, sure I know what is, but then the questions come back...what if?... have I
started to stagnate? ...Perhaps I need to look further... I get itchy feet and the game continues.

I don’t like to repeat examples but in the Ayahuasca ceremony, where I was in a state of pure
bliss...it wasn’t enough. It’s just another path but no matter how wondrous the next path is it
always misses something you desire on the path you are on.

I am pleased for you Seth if you are content and happy and long may it continue for you, but for me
there are still questions.

III you say “Evolution is it's own goal”. Then what purpose does it serve apart from a curiosity?

It can’t be a curiosity or there would be no cats :)

I can only try to empathise with your struggle III, but can never fully understand what you went
through as we have walked different paths, but wouldn’t you say that your goal was to diminish the
pain and in so doing strive toward a happier state of existence?

"Having and working with "emotions" is at the heart of alchemy. They are a key to having a
worthwhile LIFE. They are something we have only when alive."

Does a drug addict not think the same about his/her next fix?

What if it is emotion that creates the illusion and questioning the emotions is the way to lift the veil
to reality?

If not we can try something else :)

Just a thought!

Ghislain

P.S. I wanted to say more, but having just come off a night shift I can’t keep my eyes open. I hope I
have said enough to explain what I meant to say as I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone's FEELINGs :)

Krisztian
11-04-2013, 03:17 PM
When someone achieved a level of happiness that's almost ever-present, I don't want to say all present because most wouldn't believe that's possible, then emotionality, labile states, swings and 'emotional thinking' is less present. In fact, I say it isn't really there. That's because the brain isn't addicted to emotions anymore, especially destructive inner states, which is very prevalent among society. But creates reality from a spiritual-driven mind set, that's more about direct conscious creating, not about emotional hunger. I must point out what I mean is very rare, and if one meets one they have a general energetic glow about them, and contentment and vitality.

The whole psychopathic idea doesn't fit here, that's yet again another social conditioning by the Powers That Be. A psychopath is almost always in turmoil, inner one. I know, I am a psychologist who works with that diagnosis.

It is my point that there isn't happiness without some form of spirituality. (But I know when I say that some who doesn't have or know spirituality experientially will miss-understand my comment.)

III
11-04-2013, 07:55 PM
If you look at the three last posts I think there is a bit of misunderstanding in each, which is causing some crossed lines.

I should have said the pursuit of happiness is the driving force...it is when happiness is being achieved that there is the danger of contentment and apathy.

Seth, for me you have addressed the issue most succinctly, but I still feel we are missing the point as we are talking/writing here under the influence of emotions. Perhaps the question could be better answered by a sociopath. <- pun intended :).

You said “The driving fuel isnt because its our temporary nature”

I didn’t mean “our” temporary nature; I was talking of the temporary nature of happiness and contentment. Perhaps the comma should have been left out...grammar isn’t my strong point :(

We seem to have a trait of desensitisation, for example, we see it in what we find horrific in films today. My mother wouldn’t let me watch the old King Kong films; she thought they were terrifying...watch them today and they are laughable. I believe it is the same with happiness, have it for too long and you grow weary of it, taking it for granted and wanting more; it’s like a drug or it is a drug, take it away and a person will go to the ends of the earth to retrieve it or they will go into withdrawal and pine for it.

Emotions! Just Say No!

Like Joni Mitchell said in “Big Yellow Taxi”: Don’t it all seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.

I think we may know the what (endorphins), but the when, how and why are a little vague.

You say, “mere survival is not living”, then what is?...and what for?

Is it not an illusory picture that what we are doing is anything other than merely surviving?

Please note my questioning comes from curiosity not any form of depression ...or maybe it does :confused:; you’ll have to excuse me, I may be under the influence of emotion.

It’s fun to talk of money and economics as illusionary, but take it away and it won’t seem so illusionary. I think we are about to find that out as the ridiculous monetarist system we have created comes crashing down. It was never sustainable, it’s a pyramid system and they made pyramid selling illegal for the very same reason. <-bit off topic sorry

“It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.”

Then I have to ask, why play the game at all...does reason not come into it? What do we get from playing the game...more emotion? Don’t get me wrong, I play the game and enjoy doing so, but for a moment I have it on pause to ask why?

Am I playing a game or am I a puppet being played with?; rewarded or punished with emotion! I’m like a junky whore; happiness is the drug but who’s my pimp?

“ its our nature to explore and move forward, to not stagnate. That has less to do with emotion, and more to do with why we are here in general (experience, know self; Macro & Micro). The True Contentment, simply gives the emotional and mental stability to fully utilize this nature we have.”

With respect Seth, do you have all your answers? If not then you still search, but what are you searching for? If you are not searching could you be missing something? It’s a sort of paradox.

I sometimes feel content, sure I know what is, but then the questions come back...what if?... have I started to stagnate? ...Perhaps I need to look further... I get itchy feet and the game continues.

I don’t like to repeat examples but in the Ayahuasca ceremony, where I was in a state of pure bliss...it wasn’t enough. It’s just another path but no matter how wondrous the next path is it always misses something you desire on the path you are on.

I am pleased for you Seth if you are content and happy and long may it continue for you, but for me there are still questions.

III you say “Evolution is it's own goal”. Then what purpose does it serve apart from a curiosity?

It can’t be a curiosity or there would be no cats :)

I can only try to empathise with your struggle III, but can never fully understand what you went through as we have walked different paths, but wouldn’t you say that your goal was to diminish the pain and in so doing strive toward a happier state of existence?

"Having and working with "emotions" is at the heart of alchemy. They are a key to having a worthwhile LIFE. They are something we have only when alive."

Does a drug addict not think the same about his/her next fix?

What if it is emotion that creates the illusion and questioning the emotions is the way to lift the veil to reality?

If not we can try something else :)

Just a thought!

Ghislain

P.S. I wanted to say more, but having just come off a night shift I can’t keep my eyes open. I hope I have said enough to explain what I meant to say as I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone's FEELINGs :)

Hi Ghislain,

III you say “Evolution is it's own goal”. Then what purpose does it serve apart from a curiosity?

It can’t be a curiosity or there would be no cats :)

I live with two small green aliens. One of them is an Amazon Green parrot, and middling large parrot and the other a smaller Quaker parrot. The Amazon is extremely curious, every bit as curious as a cat and as likely to be killed by that curiosity. He doesn't think at all like a mammal. As Alex's trainer said "Who would have thought that a bird with a brain the size of half a peeled walnut could be so smart". So big brained curved beak birds, and crows, ravens and magpies at least, have curiosity down as well as cats. They solve mechanical problems better than cats.

I don't see how you link evolution up with curiosity. Since one might say that at the end of a life all is revealed, evolution keeps one from reaching that end and the satisfaction of curiosity. It is sort of the ultimate delay of gratification. One's being is always "pending" It does serve the purpose of the eternal game of "keep it going" (EJ Gold).

"Here" we are where ever and what ever "here" is. Why evolve? As far as I am able to discern, that is the essence of what we are here for. Put a bunch of primates in a monkey trap that looks like a world and see if there are any who can grow to understand it. Here we are in a giant fishbowl that looks like it is completely self contained, like a Klein bottle. And the inhabitants, at least some of them, seek to control all the others and make everybody else be what they believe they ought to be. So we see the late 1st millennium church trying to kill all the Goddess oriented pagans, spiritual truth via genocide. The Moslems did the same to 300,000,000 Hindus in their genocidal campaign in India, spiritual truth by killing off the believers in other gods. We see similar behaviors from Mao, Stalin and Hitler, Kill the other believers so that there is only ONE TRUTH for the whole world. As they say "If you can't control yourself, control others".

Nobody has gathered in all the chips yet via that method. So, the question is how can one survive? Evolution is one way. It changes the nature of karma, and the game. It becomes possible to construct one's self so that one makes choices that can lead to side step the "gotcha" before the other person get's past the first step of setting it up.

About 20 years ago I was visiting in Cleveland and driving my F-I-L's brand new car on a 6 lane interstate covered with solid rink ice under a quarter inch of snow. People were driving way to fast, perhaps 30 mph. I saw a man two lanes to my right who was eying the spot next to me and he would have to accelerate hard and steer sharply to cut into the space. He looked at me and smiled and I absolutely knew he was going to cut over and spin out, hitting me and starting a 50 car chain collision that he was going to blame on me. I immediately accelerated and started to pull left two lanes carefully without spinning as quickly as I dared. As I looked over he was spinning into the space I had just vacated. He had a smile of contentment on his face as he started to spin until he saw that the space he was spinning into was empty and his face changed to an astonished look of horror and he looked around for me. He caught my eye, maybe only 5 or 6 feet away but maintaining distance as he spun and I steered over. His expression changed to a "how in hell did you get out of the way". I smiled and winked at him. His face went to rage as he disappeared in a swirling mass of cars bumping into him and each other and slowing down. I was able to stay several feet in front of and to the side of the mass of cars slowing in their slides towards me. I don't KNOW what he was about. All the appearances were that he pulled over too fast and sharply to not spin out knowing he was going to clobber me and was totally surprised and angry when he missed me and was the sole cause of the massive pileup. I made it to my appointment and in that meeting I was told of the "check your car for explosives" warnings we had received related to what we were working on.

This was hardly the first or only time that I was the apparent target. I was a bully target in school. By that time in my life, late 20s and early 30s I was dodging about 9 of 10 such occurrences. The "why" is most puzzling. I didn't make up stories about it to explain it. They are just a few of a life full of strange occurrences. My mother was the source of "setup" after "setup". I learned to recognize the "archetype" alerted by her "tells". By the time she completed the 3rd move in the setup, it was going to happen in one variant or another. The best avoidance was to sidestep it after the first move. I learned to catch people's "tells" on the first move of a setup. When I effectively side stepped, subtly or openly, the person would often be very angry for no obvious reason except that they would never admit to me or others why they were angry. The more I smiled towards them the more angry they would get. The most successful type of sidestep was always the one that would leave only one option for them and that was to make a step obvious to everybody which they would not do at step 2 because they would have no plausible deniability. Step 3 would be more open often with a "So sorry I accidently kicked your feet from under you" or "so sorry the cook dumped the whole salt shaker in your dinner and served it anyway." As "Don Juan" said it "One must learn to live strategically."

At one point in my learning I would start of when making a statement to somebody with saying "In what I'm about to say I don't mean ..." and would list off up to 20 or so of the persons' usual ways of twisting or misunderstanding what I meant and use it to unload on me. They always came up in the same sequence for any given person They would blow up and stomp away when I reached their current intention. I trashed the persons ability to play "games" with me as the " gotcha" target. After all how many times does one need to see "Now I've got you, you son of a bitch" being offered as a gambit before learning how to recognize it and avoid it. I attracted conscious players and the others went away mad.

One can evolve one's self to be out of reach of all those petty ego pecking order games. There is nothing most folks hate more than somebody who demands and assumes equality without playing continuous pecking order games and instead shoots them down without fuss.

TUNGSTEN
11-04-2013, 11:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edZLLmfJjuE
music to connect with your heart

III
11-05-2013, 02:03 AM
continued -

but wouldn’t you say that your goal was to diminish the pain and in so doing strive toward a happier state of existence?

For a while I had so such goal. Like Phil the weatherman in GHD before learning how the system worked, I went after what I wanted, to diminish pain, which for a while in my life, was focused on the red light runner and the collision. The last time I went through it I was horrified to arrive at the scene, and I didn't know exactly what was going to occur (the Strange Life of Ivan Osakan) but I saw to my horror that my passes through this place were stacked PhD, like mica; layer upon layer upon layer with all manner of different reactions and not a one that managed to avoid the collision. I saw that I could choose outcome to some extent, ranging from paralysis from mid chest and down, on the other end of the spectrum, 3 fractured vertebras, damaged disks and damaged nerves, but an intact spinal cord. At that point there are dozens of conflicting pieces of advice being flung at me. I just had to ignore it and do whatever I was going to do without know what speed and timing was associated with which injuries. No way to plan that. The difference between paralysis and reasonably recoverable injuries was 3 inches either way. There was a relative "sweet" spot in the middle with no paralysis. I ended up with moderate injury and a lifetime of pain, and haven't gone back. It turns out I needed the next 6 months of forced "idleness". I was making "Phil's" mistake, memorizing and planning my way through. I since have learned that the only way one can make a real change that outlasts the temporary life is to change ones' self.

It is an illusion that "striving" towards anything works, alchemically speaking, as it just doesn't work, it doesn't produce REAL change. Change to the life occurs as a reflection of the change of self.

I'll quote Haule again.

The final issue raised in Tantra and Erotic Tranceis how life goes on once an individual has learned to master erotic trance, participated in shaktipat, and attained to emptiness. One returns to everyday life to live it in an extraordinary manner. Each challenge that life presents -- and that might otherwise lead to confusion and defeat -- becomes an opportunity for spontaneous improvisation. Life is lived along a serpentine path where the empirical and the imaginal intersect. Each turn on that path evokes a spontaneous act of improvisation in which an imaginal reorientation is occasioned by a potential frustration or challenge. The highest pilgrimage may be made without leaving one's prayer rug. When the wandering monk, Saraha, finds a yogini making arrows before her hut, she asks the question that opens his heart to emptiness. Immediately he lays aside his robe, and they spend the rest of their lives wandering the intersection of the two worlds without ever leaving her hut.

... In the final analysis all is consciousness: the empirical and mythic worlds are but pieces of cloth woven from threads of light that are consciousness itself. There is no cloth without the threads and no threads without the cloth.


http://www.jrhaule.net/ipetSynop.html


I would not have described it exactly as he does, but I think it's right on the mark. We re-construct and reshape our being. Our "spontaneous act of improvisation" can't be planned, can't be strived for, must be innocent without plan, intentions, strivings and preconceptions. He says "serpentine path", E.J. Gold calls it a "drunkard's walk almost always headed in approximately the wrong direction". I fully agree, with both descriptions. .

As to the life I've been living, I'm bringing consciousness to all the various parts of my life altering my being thereby, and incidentally solving each problem. And as it is a process that is done over and over, the thing being "done" impossible until it is done, making threads of compressed conscious light and weaving the tapestry of reality with them.

Seth-Ra
11-05-2013, 02:13 AM
I should have said the pursuit of happiness is the driving force...it is when happiness is being achieved that there is the danger of contentment and apathy.

True contentment isnt a "danger" - it is a continuous state of being, recognized or not.
If you dont want to "achieve" happiness, then dont. If you dont, because of your want (or lack thereof), then you will still be happy/content in the action of "not-achieving" - its paradoxical until you realize that you are it, regardless of your opinion of it; you may change the flavor, but you wont remove it itself.



Seth, for me you have addressed the issue most succinctly, but I still feel we are missing the point as
we are talking/writing here under the influence of emotions. Perhaps the question could be better
answered by a sociopath. <- pun intended :).

That sounds more like a personal problem/issue, as im not "intoxicated" or "under the influence" of anything; even what i have around my neck is used in moderation. :)




You said “The driving fuel isnt because its our temporary nature”

I didn’t mean “our” temporary nature; I was talking of the temporary nature of happiness and
contentment. Perhaps the comma should have been left out...grammar isn’t my strong point :(

No, the misunderstanding is mine it seems - as by "our temporary nature" i meant it for both the extremes of emotion, and our finite time as this particular form. The permanence of those (or again, lack thereof) is not the point of experiencing those things, nor is it a driving force to experience a particular one continuously - it is just our nature to do those things (experience, feel, learn, move forward) until initiation/enlightenment; whose fruit is the realization of True Contentment.



We seem to have a trait of desensitisation, for example, we see it in what we find horrific in films today. My mother wouldn’t let me watch the old King Kong films; she thought they were terrifying...watch them today and they are laughable. I believe it is the same with happiness, have it for too long and you grow weary of it, taking it for granted and wanting more; it’s like a drug or it is a drug, take it away and a person will go to the ends of the earth to retrieve it or they will go into withdrawal and pine for it.

Emotions! Just Say No!

Like Joni Mitchell said in “Big Yellow Taxi”: Don’t it all seem to go that you don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.

Id say its less about sensitivity and more to do with wanting it more realistic/true to life. Even if its fantasy - i can "get it" if the magic or whatever looks cartoon-ish, but i will be more inclined to like it if its more realistic.
When i watch paranormal movies, im a critic based on realism. Cheap scares are cheap - no credit. Overly dramatic effects are not likely - no credit. Give me something subtle, realistic, and underestimated; i'll give credit and appreciate it more.
That being what it is, has no effect on my contentment.



I think we may know the what (endorphins), but the when, how and why are a little vague.

You say, “mere survival is not living”, then what is?...and what for?

Is it not an illusory picture that what we are doing is anything other than merely surviving?

Survival; obtain necessities, defend self and necessities, procreate.

If that is all you wish to do, then so be it. I for one will explore, and learn and experience more than survival. (Im sure you have as well though, at least at some point in time.)



It’s fun to talk of money and economics as illusionary, but take it away and it won’t seem so illusionary. I think we are about to find that out as the ridiculous monetarist system we have created comes crashing down. It was never sustainable, it’s a pyramid system and they made pyramid selling illegal for the very same reason. <-bit off topic sorry

Yes, it is illusionary, and unfortunately people have attempted to build their lives around it. I dont care if it collapses - maybe then the masses will realize that illusions dont hold. Time will tell, but yes, it is a bit off topic. lol


“It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.”

Then I have to ask, why play the game at all...does reason not come into it? What do we get from playing the game...more emotion? Don’t get me wrong, I play the game and enjoy doing so, but for a moment I have it on pause to ask why?

That question is one for yourself. We all play for a reason - know thy self.
When you have no reason, you know the way out.


Am I playing a game or am I a puppet being played with?; rewarded or punished with emotion! I’m like a junky whore; happiness is the drug but who’s my pimp?

Again, a question to pose to yourself, as im neither junky, nor pimped, nor played.


“its our nature to explore and move forward, to not stagnate. That has less to do with emotion, and more to do with why we are here in general (experience, know self; Macro & Micro). The True Contentment, simply gives the emotional and mental stability to fully utilize this nature we have.”

With respect Seth, do you have all your answers? If not then you still search, but what are you searching for? If you are not searching could you be missing something? It’s a sort of paradox.

No, it isnt a paradox (for me anyway), because yes i do have all my answers; im not still searching. (Respectfully, that notion was never my signature. ;) )

I did not ever begin to search, for the sake of searching for something i couldnt obtain. I sought with the goal of obtaining.

If i understand what Is, then i have not, and cannot "miss" anything. If you are happy/content chasing your tail in this fashion, then power to you. :)

The only thing "new" for me now, is the expression of what Is. I enjoy new expressions, like i enjoy new art, literature, music. Its really all the same - but its the presentation; the Art.


I sometimes feel content, sure I know what is, but then the questions come back...what if?... have I started to stagnate? ...Perhaps I need to look further... I get itchy feet and the game continues.

For me, thats the equivalent of asking "what if my cat had wings?" (The answer, ofcourse, is her kill-count would atleast triple. :cool: )

But thats me. :)


I don’t like to repeat examples but in the Ayahuasca ceremony, where I was in a state of pure bliss...it wasn’t enough. It’s just another path but no matter how wondrous the next path is it always misses something you desire on the path you are on.

I am pleased for you Seth if you are content and happy and long may it continue for you, but for me there are still questions.

Fair enough; i hope you get your answers (if you want them). :)




When someone achieved a level of happiness that's almost ever-present, I don't want to say all present because most wouldn't believe that's possible, then emotionality, labile states, swings and 'emotional thinking' is less present. In fact, I say it isn't really there. That's because the brain isn't addicted to emotions anymore, especially destructive inner states, which is very prevalent among society. But creates reality from a spiritual-driven mind set, that's more about direct conscious creating, not about emotional hunger. I must point out what I mean is very rare, and if one meets one they have a general energetic glow about them, and contentment and vitality.

I resonate, understand, and agree completely (except id push the bar to say "all present" cause im fun like that. ;) )


The whole psychopathic idea doesn't fit here, that's yet again another social conditioning by the Powers That Be. A psychopath is almost always in turmoil, inner one. I know, I am a psychologist who works with that diagnosis.

Have seen such myself, very true.


It is my point that there isn't happiness without some form of spirituality. (But I know when I say that some who doesn't have or know spirituality experientially will miss-understand my comment.)

Again agreed - you very excellently and succinctly describe my point. :)





~Seth-Ra

III
11-05-2013, 04:22 AM
"Having and working with "emotions" is at the heart of alchemy. They are a key to having a worthwhile LIFE. They are something we have only when alive."

Does a drug addict not think the same about his/her next fix?

Ah yes, the old dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, endorphin etc. addict routine. Maybe I should have said "moods" instead of "emotions", or maybe both and/or some other approximation. And maybe I should have called them Kundalini, or LOVE, Chakra energies or Shaktipat or ecstasy and the neurotransmitters involved.

You think that going through life devoid of emotions is worthwhile and that people who have emotions (generic) are comparable to junkies? Sure there are drama queens and adrenalin/dopamine junkies. I doubt that most drug addicts are enjoying their lives. In fact they are a pretty miserable bunch in my experience with miserable relationships. How many drug addicts would you expect to practice Tantric Alchemy for much of their lives.


What if it is emotion that creates the illusion and questioning the emotions is the way to lift the veil to reality?

I would suggest that is a misuse of emotion. Question everything. But perhaps emotion is the wrong word. Emotions are a response to whatever a person. When I feel and see MeCbl brightening my sensorium I am pleased to know it is working while the first time I was overwhelmed with joy knowing I had found the cure of a lifetime of deficiency, a real miracle if ever I have seen one. Others are terrified by the fearful stories they have heard about wehat that brightening means. At the store the very first time I was at the counter with a brand that doesn't work at all for me. A voice spoke in my head, "Not that one, it won't work. Get the other one." I did so and 30 minutes later I had a miracle. Moods, and moods increased via released neurotransmitters etc., voluntieriztion of moods, meditative moods, sequences of moods as induction into various specific chambers. For instance, the induction sequence to Prayer Absolute as taught by E.J. Gold is a series of moods. People can use emotions to drive prayer or delusions. As the creation of illusion is of course a hazard of life and frequently done, that is one of the propensities the budding Alchemist needs to be aware of. The most dangerous are the intentional lies to self despite one's own objections, that are put in place as if true.


If not we can try something else :)

You bet. I imagine most of us have tried all sorts of things. Ayahuasca, after the vomiting was a good and enjoyable experience. It wasn't until later that I looked up the contents and found out that the MAOI in it interacts, potentially fatally, with any of several prescription and OTC drugs I was taking. Knowing of the possibility of fatal interaction in advance might have changed the experience. So how would that apply to the previous emotional illusion idea? However, I wouldn't have done it knowing that.

Ghislain
11-05-2013, 09:54 AM
I have again burnt the candle at both ends and when I finished this post I thought post
50 was the last. I have read to post 54 now, but only answered up to post 50 so it may
not exactly fit here. but some very interesting stuff I would love to discuss later...good
night all.



When someone achieved a level of happiness that's almost ever-present, I don't want to say all
present because most wouldn't believe that's possible

Krisztian, what you described there is what I experienced on the Ayahuasca journey...and it was not
what I expected...It made me see the necessity of the difficulties encountered in life. Imagine if you
only had happiness...how much would you give to feel a little sadness? ...I’m grinning right now for it
sounds like I have an answer to the question, but I don’t...If all you had was happiness then you
would be no better off than if, as I first suggested, we were totally logical without emotion; one
emotion is surely as bad as no emotion.

If the Universe had a boundary then my mind just moves outside of that boundary and asks what is
beyond it. The same goes for the search for “what is” for if I could find a definition for “what is” I
would have to change it to “what is +” if not I would feel trapped/confined by “what is” in the same
way I would feel trapped by pure happiness.

When watching a video about the Universe and how vast it was it gave me a feeling of
claustrophobia; being trapped here on this tiny spec we call the world. I get a similar feeling when
talking of subjects like this. Seth came up with a plausible explanation for happiness, but it made me
think if that’s it then I shall have to find something else...lol


if one meets one they have a general energetic glow about them, and contentment and vitality.

I think I know what you mean, I have a list of people I find amazing, but I don’t know why.

I look over it sometimes and I get the same feeling each time...they have what I want. Perhaps it is
what you are referring to. Sid James from the “carry on” films, Tom Hanks...not sure where I put my
list but that’s a couple from it. Dolly Parton that’s another. I don’t know these people but I feel they
are truly amazing and not for their art, which I could take or leave, but just from something that
emanates from them. Now I sound mad...is that an emotion :)

Krisztian I purposely used the word sociopath as I see a slight difference between this and
psychopath. I see a sociopath as a person performing tasks with faked emotion, one that they can
quite easily turn off if the need arises; calculating through their own logic. I see a psychopath as a
sociopath with bad attitude :)

III, just a side note; there is no need to copy whole swathes of text to reply to a post...you could just
copy and paste relevant information. It makes an already long thread unnecessarily longer and hard
to navigate.


I don't see how you link evolution up with curiosity
The reason I associated “evolution as its own goal” with curiosity is because if we evolve for nothing
other than to evolve then the only reason one may want to do this is for the curiosity of seeing what
we might evolve into; what other reason could there be?

I was going to ask how your last post linked in with the theme of the thread, but I guess it is to show
the antonym to happiness.

Reading your post the first thing that came to mind was a sadness.

Why would you think people would take precious time out of their meagre existence to try and get
the better of you; what makes you so important in their lives?

But it does bring up that other emotion “sadness” :(, what purpose does that serve? I hate being
sad, but I have had my fair share like anyone else. I think sadness is even harder to fathom than
happiness.

Has anyone got an explanation for a possible benefit to sadness?

Could it be the way we empathise with others...if this or that makes me sad it will probably make
another sad. I’m not sure, but when one is sad or down it is a lot harder to get things done IMO.

So let’s get back to happiness :)

Ghislain

Krisztian
11-05-2013, 03:11 PM
. . . . what you described there is what I experienced on the Ayahuasca journey. . .

One doesn't need substance to develop such experience. But one of my colleagues also speaks highly of ayahuasca. Physician Gabor Mate seems to now also encourage use to 'cure' addictions.


I purposely used the word sociopath as I see a slight difference between this and
psychopath. I see a sociopath as a person performing tasks with faked emotion, one that they can
quite easily turn off if the need arises; calculating through their own logic. I see a psychopath as a
sociopath with bad attitude :)

I miss understood then Ghislain what you said. For me psychopath and sociopath are identical terms, the difference lies in their descriptor for either born as one (psychopath) and developed via social circumstances (sociopath). Canadian professor Robert Hare would probably make claim as such.


The reason I associated “evolution as its own goal" . . .

Evolution on its own, if there's such a thing, is empty. Constant change, yes. I don't see humanity evolving, just changing.

There is what, in some initiatory inner circles, they call accelerated illumination. Where the purpose of living shifts slightly, well, that's an understatement, where one operates from a different approach to life than mainstream. You'll find the described state of happiness I attribute to more present with that group of people.

One should not make excuses, construct self-serving philosophies, for being unable to balance our inner world of emotions. Yes, the trauma experienced takes some effort to heal but in most people's lives they're unaware. That's why the constant whirlwind of emotions, that's not the backdrop for happiness. That's a lost soul!


. . . . I resonate, understand, and agree completely (except id push the bar to say "all present" cause im fun like ) . . .

Why am I not surprised Brother Seth-Ra that you and I think alike.

III
11-05-2013, 06:25 PM
HI Ghislain,

The reason I associated “evolution as its own goal” with curiosity is because if we evolve for nothing other than to evolve then the only reason one may want to do this is for the curiosity of seeing what we might evolve into; what other reason could there be?

In taking an evolutionary path, several things occur. We grow, quite literally, we develop beyond what our previous limits were, other lives open up to being suitable. But it is also a key to Eternal life. Each "life" is different in it's parameters, in what is structural vs transient. Also, problems that come up that had been unsolvable become solvable. Relationship with Karma becomes different. Some say it speeds up. It also changes in character from something "mysterious" that one has to "live" out to something more like figuring out how clean up ones own "code". We are all evolving, I don't think anybody can opt out of that. However, the Buddhist "wheel of life" is awfully tediously slow. It might be a fine model when nothing else changes, and everybody lives simple lives that change a little, a very little, to cope with. To others, the wheel of life might look like a very small box and some genuinely want the blinders off and to get out of the box. Would you be bored in a "default" life as a primitive rice farmer in Asia? I would be. I find a nice big juicy problem that nobody has been able to solve to be an interesting and worthy challenge. I spent 30 years helping to develop object oriented design and programming so that we could think about bigger problems and keep it all straight. We were called in by the Department of Justice, in a big case of suspected but not proved corruption in a large group of union benefit plans. We were supposed to find the problems and set them right. The legal part was over. We were not gathering evidence except to fix the plans. We had contracting authority for the plans. That was interesting. To fix my own problem I had to overturn the thinking developed by 60 years of the medical research industrial complex on 2 vitamins and have found the logic "side effects" that had them throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

That's a good reason to consciously evolve. One can evolve ones way out of a lousy life. An old Sufi saying, "Even hell can be comfortable through skillful means".

As Krisztian said "There is what, in some initiatory inner circles, they call accelerated illumination". That also appears to be evolution in action.

Why would you think people would take precious time out of their meagre existence to try and get the better of you; what makes you so important in their lives?

That is a damned good question. I don't know. It is all ancient history. The last such occurrence was 1986 before I got sick and some guy got road rage on the road up to Snowbird when I dropped off a couple of hitchhikers. He followed me to Alta, a mile up the road and caught up to me in the men's room. Then he started spouting off trying to make me start the fight so he could be righteous in beating on me. I didn't want to fight. I'm a peaceful person with ski boots on. So I tied him in knots verbally, "misunderstanding" everything he said and making him sound ridiculous. Finally he stomped put shaking his head and muttering "You are too stupid to know when you are supposed to fight". As soon as the door shut behind him everybody else in the bathroom started laughing, as did I. That was 27 years ago. Why did this guy have an attack of road rage? He blamed me for pulling over into the Snowbird driveway to let them off and he without watching where he was going pulled off tailgating me and I stopped and he almost hit me. So he blamed me instead of his own lack of attention to where he was going. He was in road rage at me because he was a sleeping idiot.

I do know that during school I attracted bullies. The peculiar thing was that some of them kept it up for 3 or 4 years. At a reunion about 10 years ago I asked one of them that did it (he became a dentist) and he said "because I was an asshole then". Future proctologist maybe? My mothers training made me a good bully target. I was a fat kid, not by todays standards, but by the more modest standards of the time. When I threw off that training and stopped tolerating them and instead demonstrated I could beat the crap out of them, it stopped. Why there were a number of curious events of no significance since I avoided the outcomes, say 1 every 5 or 10 years, like the guy in the car on the freeway, I don't know. Maybe the stream of expressions on his face were random and meant nothing. Perhaps why a pair of muggers targeted me was because I wearing an expensive suit and looked like I had some money or something. People do things for their own reasons. I was doing a data raid from a suspected "mob" owned business and could have told myself all sorts of stories. The folks I dealt with were all decent and the worst thing that happened was that the Corn Nuts were rancid.

However, in day to day transactions, lot of people are playing "pecking order" games with great frequency with everybody. I see it in exactly that way, pecking order, the big parrot is definitely top bird. It's funny to watch people mechanically play out those same simple minded things.

A lot of it is done as routine business of some kind. I was working on a program that I was hired to do after the first several people had told the guy why it was impossible to do. I had given him a "rough estimate", and told him that since I was breaking new ground it was a really rough estimate. I hit the $50,000 level and his lawyer wrote and threated me with a lawsuit unless I finished the program at no further charge. I called and at first he said he couldn't talk to me, have my lawyer call. I told him that I was a young guy with 3 children, no assets and plenty of debt and that I couldn't afford a lawyer so he was going to have to talk to me. I suggested that his client would do better if he renegotiated a lower price to finish the program but to want 6 months more work for free wasn't possible. He started to threaten me again and I reminded him he could sue till he was blue in the face and he might get my 14 year old station wagon as that was my only asset to speak of. The guy I was doing it for was an obvious bully type back in school which I had confirmed by those who knew him then. Then I told the lawyer that if he, or any other lawyer or the client threatened me again in any way about this program I would burn it and walk away and do some other program. I got a offer from the client for a reduced rate we could both live with, finished that program and went on and did another major system for the same people. Why do some people feel like they have to threaten the worst possible consequences to force somebody to do something when a simple negotiation would do the trick. If he really wanted to play "I'll sue your ass" I didn't have the money or time to waste doing so, so I told them I would make the whole think totally pointless if they were going to threaten me. The program itself was the trump card as they really did want that and the first 3/4 was working and he had lots of man-hours invested putting in data, designing and ordering new forms and so on. So it's only business as some would say. It's also being acted out as a bully would act it out. Working deep in the heart of insurance I was bonded for millions and a much business was on a handshake with papers to follow sometimes months later. I'm starting work on a research project, on spec, that is still working on the first stage grant application.

There are half a dozen folks in this world to whom my life matters. They are the ones I care about.

Reading your post the first thing that came to mind was a sadness.

But it does bring up that other emotion “sadness” :(, what purpose does that serve? I hate being
sad, but I have had my fair share like anyone else. I think sadness is even harder to fathom than
happiness.


I've had considerable sadness in my life. I'm still not done with my daughter's death 2 years ago by a drunk driver running a suburban red light at 73 mph. I saw her death at the literal moment of birth, as did my wife. My son in law, her husband, depressed and disabled, died this past summer from a medication overdose. My father doesn't know who any of us are and is in a advanced Alzheimer's unit. Yes, It's a wonderful life.

Does that make sadness any easier to fathom?

I think that in this form there is a compression of time that creates an illusion of things happening with a great deal more density than they do in life. If I described each of the hundred or so streps and half a dozen pneumonias I've had, my life might seem one way. I haven't been sick in 10 years and am the healthiest I have ever been puts a different light on it. How many people recover and rehabilitate after 20 years of disability? From my insurance background I'll quote you the statistics (old ones, it's worse now for economic reasons). Eighty percent of people disabled for 6 months or more NEVER work again in their life.

If I describe hundreds of ecstatic Tantric experiences, my wonderful beloved partner and all that you would have a different idea. I have gotten lots of cherries but also the pits (thanks to Erma Bombeck for that).




None of this is unusual. Everybody dies and lots get Alzheimer's

III
11-06-2013, 01:45 AM
Evolution on its own, if there's such a thing, is empty. Constant change, yes. I don't see humanity evolving, just changing.
There is what, in some initiatory inner circles, they call accelerated illumination. Where the purpose of living shifts slightly, well, that's an understatement, where one operates from a different approach to life than mainstream. You'll find the described state of happiness I attribute to more present with that group of people.
One should not make excuses, construct self-serving philosophies, for being unable to balance our inner world of emotions. Yes, the trauma experienced takes some effort to heal but in most people's lives they're unaware. That's why the constant whirlwind of emotions, that's not the backdrop for happiness. That's a lost soul!

There is what, in some initiatory inner circles, they call accelerated illumination.
Evolution on its own, if there's such a thing, is empty.

I think we have a lack of mutual understanding as to what "evolution" in these terms means. The Buddhist "wheel of life" idea illustrates ultra slow motion evolution. In my experience Tantric Alchemy produces accelerated illumination and evolution, or maybe the opposite order or maybe both concurrently. It's accelerated by being voluntary and cooperative with the process instead of blindly stumbling around. I truly have no idea if or HOW one could separate them. In this alchemical process one goes through each of the usually noted 3 major initiations just in the process. Unless we are sitting in a formal initiatory circle, no fuss at all is made of it as it just happens in the usual course of things. It changes EVERYTHING for the person. All Sufis Yogis etc are equal, some are great Sufis, or Yogis (Great Swan such as Ramakrishna and Parmahansa Yogananda) etc.

Evolution on its own, if there's such a thing, is empty.

Good joke. My metaphysics is a reasonably pure advaitist jnana Ramakrishna, but my language is more modern. Tantric Alchemy is nondual.

The final issue raised in Tantra and Erotic Trance is how life goes on once an individual has learned to master erotic trance, participated in shaktipat, and attained to emptiness.
J.R.Haule

Constant change, yes. I don't see humanity evolving, just changing.

I would very much disagree. I see all the current upheavals occurring because humanity IS evolving.

Ghislain
11-06-2013, 07:17 AM
Bit off topic, but within the animal evolutionary procedure one generation or even several generations
would not notice the action occur. However I believe we are evolving outside of the organic body
mechanism most people normally refer to. We now evolve through technology and this is rapidly
changing the human world. Where this takes us will be dictated to by our capacity to move with it
and not destroy ourselves in the process.

To continue discussion on Evolution there are already quite a few threads. See:

Evolution in Perspective (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3674-Evolution-in-Perspective)

the engine of nature is evolution of the brain (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3675-the-engine-of-nature-is-evolution)

”left in the dark” – evolution of the brain (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3739-quot-Left-in-the-dark-quot-evolution-of-the-brain)

or

On a planet’s Evolution (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3170-On-a-Planet-s-Evolution)

Back to happiness and other emotions :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhqlmdrk5Ns

That's another person for my list :)

About Ken (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9UryAikdU4)

Ghislain

Ghislain
11-07-2013, 07:05 AM
True contentment isnt a "danger"...If you dont want to "achieve" happiness, then dont.

Seth, when people find happiness then contentment isn’t far behind; a synonym for contentment is complacency.
Many Americans are proud of the American Way and seem pretty content. When people are content with the
satus quo they tend to stop questioning. Watch the video Farmergeddon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uah8LBUbfc), Americans are not even allowed
to choose what they eat. Watch the video by Infowars on Terrorism’s Big Dirty Secret ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4-QQAifRDc ) and see why the western
world has given up most of its human rights...they want to keep us safe...from what? If accepting this and many
other lies like these is not a danger then what is?

I guess we could say let them get on with it, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, but I like to look at the
world’s population like my extended family and I wouldn’t want to leave my family alone in that state of
manipulation and abuse...this is not thought in emotion it is thought in logic for if I am willing to leave people
trapped in a situation then I can only expect them to leave me that way too.

When I started this thread I asked the question what makes us happy and why, Please don’t think I’m devoid of
the happiness experience, I often partake, but my question is why and what for? I was present at both my
children’s births and have sampled some other delightful events in my life; a few I would call spiritual for want
of a better word. I could quite easily sit back and feel quite content, but who will ask the questions if everyone is
content. You may as well put me into some drug induced coma and pipe in the happiness, I have dreamt the
most amazing things so how would that be any different? I guess you can’t tax a dream...

R.E.M TAX :shudders:

Androgynus posted in “Great Quote Collection”

“Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.”

― Ellen DeGeneres

How many people can relate to that?

Let’s rock the status quo and see what falls out!

The former was just an example to show what danger may lay in accepting, it doesn’t mean by accepting that
danger is imminent, but it opens a door for it. The difference in this thread is that I am questioning something
that hasn’t been questioned that often...why do we have emotion and could we be better off without them,
perhaps they could be a vestigial part of us left over from a distant past that we have grown to accept...

Like death; if you agree with evolution there is no evolutionary reason that we should die, the only reason it
still exists is that it doesn’t interfere with the evolutionary process of reproduction and thus has never evolved
out and will never have to. How’s that for bad luck :( Perhaps we should only let people over 90 reproduce
and we may be able to breed it out. There are already creatures that don’t age...I think lobsters are one of
these. Take away the lobster’s predators and disease and the world will be full of Dr. Zoidburgs :mad: lol I
guess that’s why God made them so tasty.


im not "intoxicated" or "under the influence" of anything; even what i have around my neck is used in moderation.

Now don’t shoot the messenger but you do know other people use that line too, don’t you? :confused:


- it is just our nature to do those things (experience, feel, learn, move forward) until initiation/enlightenment; whose fruit is the realization of True Contentment.

Is that to say we can’t experience, learn and move forward without emotion? And if we substitute the word for
contentment for its synonym then the fruit becomes the realisation of true complacency; which to me is not the
goal of enlightenment, I think a better target might be comprehension or a final understanding.

Seth You said


It isnt Life, unless one wants to choose to play that sub-game within the actual game of Life itself.


That question is one for yourself. We all play for a reason - know thy self.

Actually Seth that was a question for you, however on the subject of “know thyself”, I think I do and have done
all my life, but I find new things about myself all the time and at each stage I know myself, so at this point I
know myself as I am, tomorrow I will know myself as the person I am tomorrow ad infinitum.


When you have no reason, you know the way out.

Perhaps my question of that statement wasn’t as clear as it should have been as I don’t have a valid reason to life
and therefore your answer points to me knowing the way out and the only way I know out is a little drastic for a
forum topic and would probably mean no more entries lol.

So a rephrased question...

What makes one choose to play the sub-game...what is the sub-game in your opinion?


Ghislain: “Am I playing a game or am I a puppet being played with?; rewarded or punished with
emotion! (I’m like a junky whore; happiness is the drug but who’s my pimp?)”

Seth: Again, a question to pose to yourself, as im neither junky, nor pimped, nor played.

The second part of what I wrote in parenthesis' was a sort of rhetorical statement, I don’t really think I’m a
junky whore , :o but it is a possibility given an open mind.

The whole point of players playing others is that the others don’t know they are being played or it’s game over
for the player.


No, it isnt a paradox (for me anyway), because yes i do have all my answers; im not still searching.

Then you are unique in the people I have met in my life Seth and I have met a few in the years I’ve been
“playing the game”, but if you feel you have seen all you need to see then obviously you are the best to judge if
you have all your answers. Are you satisfied that you have asked the right questions?



Ghislain: “I sometimes feel content, sure I know what is, but then the questions come back...what if?... have I
started to stagnate? ...Perhaps I need to look further... I get itchy feet and the game continues.”

Seth: “For me, thats the equivalent of asking "what if my cat had wings?" (The answer, ofcourse, is her kill-
count would atleast triple. )

But thats me.”

For me it’s the equivalent of saying “shit” I nearly gave up and settled for...I have seen this in many religions.
My mother would have been so proud if I had stopped in Catholicism...sorry mum!


Fair enough; i hope you get your answers (if you want them). :)

It’s not just a question of wanting them Seth...they have to make sense and I need to trust in that logic. I’m very
tenacious and was like this at school...I wouldn’t let the tutor move on without my understanding...some people
teach by rote and don’t really know what they are teaching and if they get it wrong then so does the student.
The difficulty here is in trying to decide if it is my own understanding is at fault or if the information is flawed.

Thanks all the same :) It’s turning out to be an interesting conversation.

Ghislain

Seth-Ra
11-07-2013, 08:14 PM
Seth, when people find happiness then contentment isn’t far behind; a synonym for contentment is complacency. Many Americans are proud of the American Way and seem pretty content. When people are content with the satus quo they tend to stop questioning. Watch the video Farmergeddon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uah8LBUbfc), Americans are not even allowed
to choose what they eat. Watch the video by Infowars on Terrorism’s Big Dirty Secret ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4-QQAifRDc ) and see why the western world has given up most of its human rights...they want to keep us safe...from what? If accepting this and many other lies like these is not a danger then what is?

Youre not understanding. The only one linking contentment with complacency is you - even though ive stated repeatedly that these are not the same, nor is that "typical" (status quo/complacent) idea of contentment, the contentment im talking about.


I guess we could say let them get on with it, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, but I like to look at the world’s population like my extended family and I wouldn’t want to leave my family alone in that state of manipulation and abuse...this is not thought in emotion it is thought in logic for if I am willing to leave people trapped in a situation then I can only expect them to leave me that way too.

Problem is, what you want for others isnt always what they want for themselves. Your logic doesnt = the "Way", that is part of emotions; to understand more than logic, empathy, relating.

People need to be bound in their shackles, so they can learn how to get out of them. There is a reason for all of it. Your ability, or inability to understand it, does not mean its broken like it is.


When I started this thread I asked the question what makes us happy and why, Please don’t think I’m devoid of the happiness experience, I often partake, but my question is why and what for? I was present at both my children’s births and have sampled some other delightful events in my life; a few I would call spiritual for want of a better word. I could quite easily sit back and feel quite content, but who will ask the questions if everyone is content. You may as well put me into some drug induced coma and pipe in the happiness, I have dreamt the most amazing things so how would that be any different? I guess you can’t tax a dream...


If everyone was complacent, sure - not Truly Content.




The former was just an example to show what danger may lay in accepting, it doesn’t mean by accepting that danger is imminent, but it opens a door for it.

Theres a fine line between danger and fear-mongering (im not saying you are, just making a point).
When things are understood, there isnt a fear of danger, no need for "ignorance's bliss", no desire for stagnation or complacency. There is respect for the Whole, contentment with its design and your place/fragment within it, and the continuing your growth (which is the natural flow/desire/programming of Spirit).


The difference in this thread is that I am questioning something that hasn’t been questioned that often...why do we have emotion and could we be better off without them, perhaps they could be a vestigial part of us left over from a distant past that we have grown to accept...

No, you cant live without them - youre not a vulcan. lol

If you attempt to, its only going to be damaging (cold, unfeeling, incapable of relating to others, and with the emotions being repressed, they can cause all sorts of problems just like any other blockage, and potentially dangerous if/when they break free.)


Like death; if you agree with evolution there is no evolutionary reason that we should die, the only reason it still exists is that it doesn’t interfere with the evolutionary process of reproduction and thus has never evolved
out and will never have to. How’s that for bad luck :( Perhaps we should only let people over 90 reproduce and we may be able to breed it out. There are already creatures that don’t age...I think lobsters are one of these. Take away the lobster’s predators and disease and the world will be full of Dr. Zoidburgs :mad: lol I guess that’s why God made them so tasty.

Death's purpose is balance and population control - regardless if its due to "age" or illness, or predator.
As for humans - we more than double reproduce what we lose, each day, regardless of natural disaster, war, famine, plague, misc violence/whatever.
Since we, as a whole, dont have the mentality to take care of what we have, including appreciation of the return of the energy we took to manifest, Death is not evolutionally worthless, but an integral part of the process.

Many say that with no Black Phase, there is no Alchemy.




Now don’t shoot the messenger but you do know other people use that line too, don’t you? :confused:

lol irrelevant. Each "line" must be taken in context, not just the line itself, otherwise all is invalidated cause of others that have used it.



Is that to say we can’t experience, learn and move forward without emotion? And if we substitute the word for contentment for its synonym then the fruit becomes the realisation of true complacency; which to me is not the goal of enlightenment, I think a better target might be comprehension or a final understanding.

Again, you are designed with emotion, not a vulcan, and emotion has its uses that cold logic cant grasp.

Again, complacency is not the true Contentment. I guess this is only hard to understand if you havent realized it for yourself.




Actually Seth that was a question for you, however on the subject of “know thyself”, I think I do and have done all my life, but I find new things about myself all the time and at each stage I know myself, so at this point I know myself as I am, tomorrow I will know myself as the person I am tomorrow ad infinitum.

The only one that will answer it to your satisfaction, is you. If you could understand my answer(s) then you wouldnt still be asking the same question(s). lol




Perhaps my question of that statement wasn’t as clear as it should have been as I don’t have a valid reason to life and therefore your answer points to me knowing the way out and the only way I know out is a little drastic for a
forum topic and would probably mean no more entries lol.

lol indeed that would be what it meant.



So a rephrased question...

What makes one choose to play the sub-game...what is the sub-game in your opinion?

Sub-games are infinite; one plays depending on one's interests/natural slant - which ones we play and why still come back to the same question; know thy self.

Even the illusionary sub-games have their value in their make-up, but that doesnt mean they are "equal" in value either - some have more or less Truth, but in some respect all is needed, or they wouldnt be - in some form or fashion.
Tis a thing of frequency/interest.




The whole point of players playing others is that the others don’t know they are being played or it’s game over for the player.

Playing others is a sub-game, the value of which, is to learn human behavior in general, to learn the self. The "Game" is not about playing others, but about growing self (Micro and Macro) - there are no losers or victims, just those that re-explore "Lead" and friends, instead of moving on to "Silver" or "Gold". ;)



Then you are unique in the people I have met in my life Seth and I have met a few in the years I’ve been “playing the game”, but if you feel you have seen all you need to see then obviously you are the best to judge if you have all your answers. Are you satisfied that you have asked the right questions?

I am not surprised that i appear "unique" to you in this sense. :)

Indeed, i have asked the right questions. The right ones are the real ones.
Unlike most my age (and many older), ive had far more time on my hands due to my exile, and i made use of it.



For me it’s the equivalent of saying “shit” I nearly gave up and settled for...I have seen this in many religions.
My mother would have been so proud if I had stopped in Catholicism...sorry mum!

Im afraid this has no bearing given the context. Ask the right (real) question to get the right answer; as per my example, asking "what if my cat had wings" is a pointless question unless im writing a fantasy book, or working in a genetics lab to make it real. Meaningless hypotheticals are meaningless - and without a functional context, its a chasing of the wind/chasing one's own tail, and at the end of the day, nothing to show for it. Stagnation without the sensation of stagnation due to the illusion of motion (like a mary-go-round).



It’s not just a question of wanting them Seth...they have to make sense and I need to trust in that logic. I’m very tenacious and was like this at school...I wouldn’t let the tutor move on without my understanding...some people
teach by rote and don’t really know what they are teaching and if they get it wrong then so does the student. The difficulty here is in trying to decide if it is my own understanding is at fault or if the information is flawed.

The only way to know and understand is to do and explore. Armchair understanding is just that; questioning to question. As i said, there are answers, if you cant see them, then im sorry (really), and i cant explain them to you, cause it is a matter of wanting to know. Theory and practice arent the same; ideas arent real until realized - which means doing, not (only) pondering.

To that end; you can attempt to repress your emotions, if that is your point of argument/discussion, then do so, and report back. Turn your world into a boolean expression only, and see if you find more value in it.

Logic has its place, as does emotion; they balance and compliment each other.




Thanks all the same :) It’s turning out to be an interesting conversation.

Ghislain


Im glad you think so. :) lol

I hope my typing style in this is not taken the wrong way either.
(Perhaps a good time to try to remove emotion. ;) )





~Seth-Ra

Ilos
11-08-2013, 12:40 AM
Laibl Wolf - The Art of Happiness 1:10


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE5QE_TTCzw

Ghislain
11-08-2013, 01:34 AM
Youre not understanding.

That is the whole purpose of discussion Seth.


The only one linking contentment with complacency is you

Actually it was Thesaurus.com (http://thesaurus.com/browse/contentment). I didn’t create the English language.


Problem is, what you want for others isnt always what they want for themselves.

Seth, I don’t know if you looked at the video links posted in my last post, but if you did then perhaps you might
realise that these people are crying out for help, but perhaps help is the wrong word, they are crying out for the
right to have their own freedom of choice rather than being dictated to by others. Those of us living in
contentment are perhaps unaware that this contentment comes at a price to others, those that are held back,
down trodden and abused. It is not what I want for others it is what they are calling out for on deaf ears.


Your logic doesnt = the "Way", that is part of emotions; to understand more than logic, empathy, relating.


I didn’t profess logic = the way, I was asking people to question whether there is actually a need for emotion

What part of emotion helps us understand more than logic?

I can empathise/relate with others using logic, it would be my emotion that may bring misunderstanding. I have
had experience with this when I used to be an employer. My job would have been a lot easier if emotions had not
been involved. I also have to deal with this as a union representative where I may disagree with the members and
thus end up arguing against my beliefs with the company as it is what the members demand; that’s difficult.

Emotions are an old friend and it is always hard to say goodbye to an old friend.

I’m sure everyone knows the series of Love Is...cartoons

http://www.loveisfan.com/images/loveis-history1.jpg

a very successful enterprise with more variations than I could begin to count.

Why could they produce so many variations? Because no one is sure what love is...it is probably a strong desire
to be close to someone, but dig deeper and there will be reasons why this is so...it is logical. If someone you
loved treated you like dirt all the time would you continue to love them? I think that could be put down to
infatuation. You see evidence in this where people get stalkers.

Family love is explained through genetics...you may like to read up on that yourself or the thread will get too
long. Briefly you feel deep love for your parents and siblings, less for cousins and less still for second cousins
and so on. It depends on the level of your genes they hold.

Obviously this is not a hard and fast rule, but a rule none the less.


Theres a fine line between danger and fear-mongering

The danger is the fear mongering carried out by governments to manipulate their populace. If you don’t see it
then take any government statement and then search out the actual facts; they rarely match, but we accept the
statement because we are content/complacent...and governments depend on it.

On my question on whether we can do without emotion Seth replied.



If you attempt to, its only going to be damaging (cold, unfeeling, incapable of relating to others, and with the
emotions being repressed, they can cause all sorts of problems just like any other blockage, and potentially
dangerous if/when they break free.)

Sounds like cold turkey to me. Perhaps we could wean ourselves off them.

A guy at work always says to me when I get emotional about something, “deal with it” I have no argument
against his statement because it is absolutely true; we have to deal with our emotions, they are our problem.

Think about a primitive tribe; to interact with them takes care because they are going to be very emotional, but
as they learn more the emotional reactions lessen. If this line of action continued then a logical conclusion
would be that as understanding increases the emotions should decrease. So are emotions something we have
because we don’t have enough understanding?

When a child cries it does so because it cannot explain the predicament it is in. As it begins to talk and
understand more it cries less, but how does this explain an adult crying; it is exactly the same. Adults rarely cry
when physically hurt (I swear :) it helps), they cry when an emotional episode becomes too difficult to
understand; it is a vestigial action saved from our childhood.


Death's purpose is balance and population control

If we are responsible we can logically have balance and population control, what goes wrong is the emotion of
lust that takes over, and then logic goes out of the window.


Since we, as a whole, dont have the mentality to take care of what we have, including appreciation of the
return of the energy we took to manifest

If we responsibly control population growth then there is balance and thus we do not need to return the energy as that would be in balance too.


Death is not evolutionally worthless, but an integral part of the process.

Tell that to the Lobster ( http://www.cracked.com/article_20055_6-unassuming-animals-that-are-secretly-immortal.html). <- check out the link it mentions other animals.


Again, you are designed with emotion, not a vulcan, and emotion has its uses that cold logic cant grasp.

Seth you mention Vulcans, but Vulcans, even though fictional characters of a TV series, had a problem with
emotions that they addressed.

Perhaps it is time for us.

Seth you have, more than once, said that, “the only one that can answer the question is you”. That would be fine
in a blog, but this is a forum so the statement makes a mute point. The point of a forum is to discuss. I already
have the answers to my own questions, the point of putting them forward here is to see what others believe of
the same point. If it is something you don’t wish to answer that is your choice.


If you could understand my answer(s) then you wouldnt still be asking the same question(s). lol

If I am not understanding your answers perhaps you could elaborate more?


Unlike most my age (and many older), ive had far more time on my hands due to my exile, and i made use of it.

Seth what do you mean by “exile”?

I said in a previous post “I sometimes feel content[complacent], sure [that] I know what is, but then
the questions come back...what if?... have I started to stagnate? ...Perhaps I need to look
further... I get itchy feet and the game continues.

I think that we all pause along the way and then realise that if nothing changes then everything stays the same.

You quoted this statement



Im afraid this has no bearing given the context. Ask the right (real) question to get the right answer; as per my
example, asking "what if my cat had wings" is a pointless question unless im writing a fantasy book, or working
in a genetics lab to make it real. Meaningless hypotheticals are meaningless - and without a functional context,
its a chasing of the wind/chasing one's own tail, and at the end of the day, nothing to show for it. Stagnation
without the sensation of stagnation due to the illusion of motion (like a mary-go-round).

Seth, they are the questions that lead me on to answers...who can be the judge if they are the real answers or not?


The only way to know and understand is to do and explore. Armchair understanding is just that; questioning to question.
What armchair are we talking of here:

The armchair I sat in while patrolling the East/West Border of Germany while serving in the BAOR?
The armchair I sat in while in the Sahara desert taking tea with a tribe of Toureg nomads?
The armchair I sat in while trekking through the Himalayas taking tea with the mountain farmers?
The armchair I sat in while taking tea with the Sadhu at the glacier at Goumuk, the source of the Ganges?
The armchair I sat in while trekking through the Andes to Machu picchu taking tea with like minded people?
The armchair I sat in while journeying with the Shipebo Meastras/os in Peru?
Or
The armchair I sat in last year journeying with the Bwiti shaman of Gabon in Central Africa?
The armchair I sat in at 13,500ft before jumping into the cool air to fly like a bird/brick? depends on your perspective.
The armchair I sit in everyday while I meditate?
The armchair I sit in while doing my Lab work and read through texts?

Or are we talking of your armchair?

I don’t question to question Seth, I question to find answers...I read peoples answers and assess them; from
some of these I may improve my knowledge or I may find the answers are completely empty, it all depends;
you find answers in the most unusual places. I could walk out of my front door and find more answers than in
any of those places mentioned above, but I believe we are here for the search and the search goes on. There
is no destination and if one stops they have missed the point all together.


As i said, there are answers, if you cant see them, then im sorry (really), and i cant explain them to you,
cause it is a matter of wanting to know. Theory and practice arent the same; ideas arent real until realized -
which means doing, not (only) pondering.

Pondering is where most of the answers come to you.

Emotions are only the effect of the secretion of hormones, drugs can emulate these emotions, that’s why people
take them and we make that illegal does that tell us something? They call them mind altering; so are all of our
bodily produced endorphins and the like...should we arrest adrenalin junkies?

Logic <> The Way, but it may be the next step on the path.

Ghislain

Seth-Ra
11-08-2013, 04:51 AM
That is the whole purpose of discussion Seth.

Then let us see the fruit. lol



Actually it was Thesaurus.com (http://thesaurus.com/browse/contentment). I didn’t create the English language.

Noted - but irrelevant, since we often give new/different meanings to words, especially here on this forum where word puns and deeper ideals are conveyed with them. The contentment that i mention, that Nibiru stated, that Krisztian stated - the contentment which is everlasting, ever there, which makes you not be "controlled" by emotion, but reign in and weigh all, experience and embrace what Is even while actively participating in your fragmented piece of it - that contentment is not synonymous with complacency/apathy/not giving a fuck. lol I really cant spell that out any clearer.




Seth, I don’t know if you looked at the video links posted in my last post, but if you did then perhaps you might realize that these people are crying out for help, but perhaps help is the wrong word, they are crying out for the
right to have their own freedom of choice rather than being dictated to by others. Those of us living in contentment are perhaps unaware that this contentment comes at a price to others, those that are held back, down trodden and abused. It is not what I want for others it is what they are calling out for on deaf ears.

I was going to post a thing on Freedom - but its off topic here, so i wont.

All things come at a price - Equivalence. That is life. Sometimes youre the head/teeth of the Ouroboros, sometimes youre the tail/food.

Freedom has no bearing on emotion or logic. All are Free, that doesnt exclude consequences to acting on it in certain ways though, at certain places etc. There are limits/boundaries to work in. Emotion and logic, are the reasons for your acting on that Freedom.

Do with that what you will.



I didn’t profess logic = the way, I was asking people to question whether there is actually a need for emotion

Your wording says otherwise. You may pose it in question format - but the supposition you are taking up is that logic is the way, as you are debating against advocates for emotion. We give you an answers (or answers) to why emotion is valuable, and you misunderstand/misconstrued what is said to continue re-imposing that it is useless and that we should move past it - after all, shouldnt we? <--- like that. ;)


What part of emotion helps us understand more than logic?

I can empathise/relate with others using logic, it would be my emotion that may bring misunderstanding. I have had experience with this when I used to be an employer. My job would have been a lot easier if emotions had not been involved. I also have to deal with this as a union representative where I may disagree with the members and thus end up arguing against my beliefs with the company as it is what the members demand; that’s difficult.

Yes, businesses are easier to run when the people are more like machines rather than humans, pesky emotions and lives, and families and such. If only it could be as clean and cold as metal and left-brain thinking, what an unfeeling paradise. :p



The danger is the fear mongering carried out by governments to manipulate their populace. If you don’t see it then take any government statement and then search out the actual facts; they rarely match, but we accept the statement because we are content/complacent...and governments depend on it.

The government fear-mongers, and the anti-government fear-mongers about the government's fear-mongering. Tis all nice and quaint, the opposames the two polarities have.




Sounds like cold turkey to me. Perhaps we could wean ourselves off them.

A guy at work always says to me when I get emotional about something, “deal with it” I have no argument against his statement because it is absolutely true; we have to deal with our emotions, they are our problem.

The excessive/over-reaction is indeed a problem. The harmonizing is not.



Think about a primitive tribe; to interact with them takes care because they are going to be very emotional, but as they learn more the emotional reactions lessen. If this line of action continued then a logical conclusion
would be that as understanding increases the emotions should decrease. So are emotions something we have because we don’t have enough understanding?

If that were the case, then being as understandably more knowledgeable as we are; we already should have close to none - yet here we are discussing them = logic fallacy.
Information does not remove emotion, it focuses it, by focusing the Sight on what is going on, and allowing use of directing energy (thought and emotion).



When a child cries it does so because it cannot explain the predicament it is in. As it begins to talk and understand more it cries less, but how does this explain an adult crying; it is exactly the same. Adults rarely cry
when physically hurt (I swear :) it helps), they cry when an emotional episode becomes too difficult to understand; it is a vestigial action saved from our childhood.

I would say that is how a child expresses his/herself, rather than explaining their predicament.
We can express ourselves in various forms.




If we are responsible we can logically have balance and population control, what goes wrong is the emotion of lust that takes over, and then logic goes out of the window.

If we responsibly control population growth then there is balance and thus we do not need to return the energy as that would be in balance too.

That means only a certain number (no matter how large or small that number is) gets to live. Death allows everyone a shot at some point - or multiple if you think that way.




Tell that to the Lobster ( http://www.cracked.com/article_20055_6-unassuming-animals-that-are-secretly-immortal.html). <- check out the link it mentions other animals.

You misunderstand; i said Death, regardless of how, is useful - the lobster dies from predators and other things, just like the other "immortals". No matter who or what it is, Death comes for it.




Seth you mention Vulcans, but Vulcans, even though fictional characters of a TV series, had a problem with emotions that they addressed.

Perhaps it is time for us.

t.v. and books. ;) (my brother is a Trekky (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Star_Trekky))

Yes, the Vulcans attempt to "deal with it" - by various suppression techniques, and even with that, they cant always contain it. Even Spock's dad lost control in his older age - resulting in quite the breakdown (and that is after they have been doing the suppression for a long time).
Not to mention the humans are often superior in many ways due to their emotion/spirit, which the Vulcans dont understand (tisnt "logical").

Even in the fantasy world, there are drawbacks. But if you wanna try it, like i said, go for it. :)



Seth you have, more than once, said that, “the only one that can answer the question is you”. That would be fine in a blog, but this is a forum so the statement makes a mute point. The point of a forum is to discuss. I already
have the answers to my own questions, the point of putting them forward here is to see what others believe of the same point. If it is something you don’t wish to answer that is your choice.

I am answering what is not internal/subjective. Those which are, are mute - to each their own, and so i find the question mute.



If I am not understanding your answers perhaps you could elaborate more?

If i thought it would help, i would. Even when i explicitly state and define my use of the term contentment, you misunderstand it.

Such things as that is why i often speak in terms of Principles, and what some would think "vague" wording choices. Its not vague, but plenty will think so - let them. Those that are supposed to, will see. Same is true also for a macro scale - all goes as it should.



Seth what do you mean by “exile”?

I was, in essence, an exile in my town/community. Its a somewhat lengthy, off topic story, full of sad blah blah, and in essence, a Micro of my Black Phase as a person. If you would like, i will PM it to you, rather than clutter the thread here. :)




Seth, they are the questions that lead me on to answers...who can be the judge if they are the real answers or not?

Real answers bear real fruit - reality.



What armchair are we talking of here:

The armchair I sat in while patrolling the East/West Border of Germany while serving in the BAOR?
The armchair I sat in while in the Sahara desert taking tea with a tribe of Toureg nomads?
The armchair I sat in while trekking through the Himalayas taking tea with the mountain farmers?
The armchair I sat in while taking tea with the Sadhu at the glacier at Goumuk, the source of the Ganges?
The armchair I sat in while trekking through the Andes to Machu picchu taking tea with like minded people?
The armchair I sat in while journeying with the Shipebo Meastras/os in Peru?
Or
The armchair I sat in last year journeying with the Bwiti shaman of Gabon in Central Africa?
The armchair I sat in at 13,500ft before jumping into the cool air to fly like a bird/brick? depends on your perspective.
The armchair I sit in everyday while I meditate?
The armchair I sit in while doing my Lab work and read through texts?

Or are we talking of your armchair?

I don’t question to question Seth, I question to find answers...I read peoples answers and assess them; from some of these I may improve my knowledge or I may find the answers are completely empty, it all depends; you find answers in the most unusual places. I could walk out of my front door and find more answers than in
any of those places mentioned above, but I believe we are here for the search and the search goes on. There is no destination and if one stops they have missed the point all together.

You've had quite the trip it seems, but youre right; you can walk out your front door and find more answers than the rest of those places. Spirit/Nature illuminates.

Im not of the view that we are here to search for searching's sake, which is exactly what it sounds like.
If that is what you enjoy, then power to you - but i find it empty and chasing the wind.

Seek and find.

Make the Fixed (the world handed to you) to be Volatile (see beyond it, into it, learn the Principles/Pattern/Truth) - then make the Volatile (that Illuminating Light that was found) to be Fixed (manifest - the world now around you). The end. Enjoy, share it, etc whatever your path/growth is.



Pondering is where most of the answers come to you.

Yes, until the answers are had.

Question: 2 + 2 = ?

Answer: 4.

Well, thats that. If you wanna make it prettier, longer, more interesting expressed, or add other expressions to it to make it more complex and more beautiful etc - fine, but it doesnt change the answer of the question of what Is. What Is includes the emotional there also - as its part of the expression, the way its expressed, the thought behind the alignment. It is the subtle to the logic's gross.




Emotions are only the effect of the secretion of hormones, drugs can emulate these emotions, that’s why people take them and we make that illegal does that tell us something? They call them mind altering; so are all of our bodily produced endorphins and the like...should we arrest adrenalin junkies?

Logic <> The Way, but it may be the next step on the path.

Ghislain



Emotions are not merely physical things, no more than you are.

I have answered the main questions of this thread in prior posts - and i have tried to answer your elaborating questions, and while i dont know why it is you arent understanding my words, you seem to not be. I hope they find you well, if not, i cant help it.


Be well, enjoy your search.





~Seth-Ra

Lunsola
11-08-2013, 02:19 PM
Things that make me happy:

#1: Accomplishing my goals
#2: Having a life companion
#3: Friends

To me it's all about time and perspective. If things went well in the past then I can be happy about that. Sometimes whenever I'm in the moment of having a good time I could consider that being a present state of happiness. For the future I plan to be happy.

Another way I sometimes think about it would be that happiness exists as more of an illusion. "Don't know what ya had until it's gone" type of thing. I try not to take things for granted. So I'm pretty happy I can see, read, walk, and such.

A lot use this term to mean are you feel good/positive about a situation, life in general, or some aspect of life.

Of course then there's this song I hear on the radio sometimes that at some point goes "happiness is overrated, joy is infinite."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBp_Qk65L_4

That song is so relevant to this discussion and my life.

Some even say happiness grows out of the ground.

http://i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg516/Lucyfairy/Happiness_zpsfe60f524.jpg

My favorite range of happiness is the 9+ zone. So out there that I'm about to pass out while I hear songs playing in my head that I've never heard before. So messed up that looking at anything can be hilarious and life is just freaking amazing. It's only a little inconvenient that I have to stick my bottom lip out to make sure it touches the glass before I take a drink of water because i can't feel my teeth. Good times, legalize happiness! :cool:

Krisztian
11-08-2013, 02:58 PM
That's a funny chart, Lunsola. I like it.

Awani
11-08-2013, 08:35 PM
http://i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg516/Lucyfairy/Happiness_zpsfe60f524.jpg

This is a cannabis high chart... or maybe that was the point? If it was the point then I don't like to go past 3/4 these days. Any stronger than that and I might as well revert to alcohol.

:cool:

III
11-08-2013, 09:14 PM
I don't think that being Vulcanized is "The Way" either. I've written hundreds of thousands of lines of code and logic. I'm the one trying to formulate Object Oriented Metaphysics. Logic by itself is like trying to balance a one legged stool.

EJ Gold, in his own style with much precedent, speaks of having to master the "physical body, the emotional body and the mental body" or something like that. Its sort of as if these three points in synthesis can define a plain, on which to build our metaphysical self.

So consider why somebody of logic extreme, like me, would choose Tantric Alchemy and it's mastery of the emotional body. The Yoni Tantra says that no other practice is needed. Whether that is correct or not, who knows. However, it was quite logical to do Tantric Alchemy as a WAY as it is necessary for the synthesis of extremes. It generates the "heat" needed for the reactions.

There are explanations of many of the lab alchemy terms that translates them into a sequence of moods and emotions that one doing human body/mind alchemical work would experience.

Of the 10.5 years of healing, the first 5 or 6 years it was good just being able to shower myself and wash my own hair. It was wonderful being able to stand in front of a stove and be able to cook anything I wanted. It was even good being able to do the dishes and paint the deck. I had to learn to "chop wood carry water" all over again in a lot of ways. After 20 years of being really flat and a lifetime of a vitamin deficiency depression, it's good to have moods and emotions, and an extremely intense good relationship.

As the evolution we are doing is not a biological evolving but an evolution of the being our life represents. Whether I am happy with my body's situation or not makes no difference to my continued evolution. People who think they are supposed to be one thing only for all eternity might be displeased with the whole idea of evolution and perpetual change. As EJ Gold says "If evolution happens to allow you to live life better, good". I'm nondualist. My deepest identity is the Absolute.

My life now, is totally improbable from where I started it. It's the same with my partner. My most probable life was death hitting the windshield at age 3. After that the next probable life was getting shot with my wife in 1974 (age 26) and the next most probable was dying skiing in January of 1975 and so on. Finding the highly improbable nutritional combination kept me from dying of heart failure in about 2004. Mortality for congestive heart failure is 80% within 10 years after diagnosis. Here I am 9 years after the death my daughter and I both saw. Highly improbable.

Whatever choices one makes in the several most recent times becomes the most probable. If everybody took always the most probable pathways, we would all still be hunter gatherers. This takes a very different view of the nature of human life. As one consciously chooses a less probable path one has to be able to dodge all the things already in motion for the more probable path, has to make the spontaneous improvisations Haule speaks of "on the tic" that change our conceptual being by their very doing or the opportunity is missed.

On the freeway that morning I saw what was going to happen and improvised. I have no idea how conscious the guy that missed me and was clearly aware that he expected to hit me, was. Beyond that who knows. Maybe the expressions were what would have happened had be hit me, the horror and all, already programed in and expressed quite unconsciously.

So maybe happiness is one of those improbable lines, surviving. I'm happier here on this highly improbable line than I ever was on the more probable lines though that wasn't what I was after.

Dr.Zoidberg
11-08-2013, 10:22 PM
Hello again Ghislain :)

Driving down the road during lunch the Mr. and I discussed this topic. Perhaps happiness is many different things to many different people; just as there are many different views of love. Some people are happy being miserable or inflicting pain upon others; others are happy by bringing happiness to others.

The brain is the physical part of our bodies associated with mind, but our brain is not our mind. Perhaps the brain is simply the physical bridge which allows us to experience such intangible things in a physical way. Dopamine and Serotonin are the chemicals in our brain associated with happiness, but they are not happiness. You can "feel" happy by adjusting the levels of these chemicals in your body, but does it really mean you are happy?

Perhaps natural happiness is a symptom of balance or harmony. Like a check engine light that indicates something is going on in your car or a pain in your shoulder that indicates you have a pinched nerve. The light does not indicate your dashboard is broken and the pain does not necessarily mean your shoulder is damaged. Happiness could be simply an indicator of an imbalance being balanced or a harmony being struck.

For example our childhoods were not ideal in the sense of having a healthy family situation; now we have great happiness in being able to provide a safe, loving, healthy situation for our children. Also many psychology books suggest the happiest marriages or relationships are where partners can fill a void or shortcomings in each other.

So where does this put people who gain happiness from suffering or inflicting it on others? It could be supposed that this happiness also is gained from balancing an imbalance or creating a harmony within themselves. So if a person's parents or playmates were mean to them now that person is mean to others. Similarly, perhaps a child who is spoiled will turn out to be a nasty individual.

On the other hand, some who were abused as children took it as a lesson on how not to treat others and instead of repeating the cycle, they harmonize and balance by being kind. Everyone internalizes and digests experiences differently. One can gain happiness or balance by dispersing pain to others or balance by healing and reversing the cycle.

So in summation we put forth the theory that happiness is a symptom or indicator of balance or harmony.

Ghislain
11-11-2013, 09:14 AM
Be well, enjoy your search. Thank you Seth, I’m sure I will.

Lunsola, I loved that Stone Temple Pilots track!

Dr. Zoidberg, do you think that “happiness is a symptom or indicator of balance or
harmony” even when some people find happiness in turmoil and stress filled situations?

I like this guy's outlook on happiness and it explains why we have our ups and
downs, but his view makes this ok.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=832 (http://www.ted.com/playlists/4/what_makes_us_happy.html)

I think living on the surface is the playground knowing that you have the refuge of the deep.

Below are some of the endogenous drugs we carry with us...I dont profess to know anything about them,
I just pinched the articles from the net...note this is but a few and there are many more, also note that
these have different effects in the presence of each other and so the permutations of the resulting effects
are...dare I say...infinite.



Endorphins ("endogenous morphine") are endogenous opioid peptides that function as
neurotransmitters. They are produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus in vertebrates
during exercise, excitement, pain, spicy food consumption, love, and orgasm, and they resemble the
opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a feeling of well-being.

Serotonin or 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) is a monoamine neurotransmitter. Biochemically derived
from tryptophan, serotonin is primarily found in the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, platelets, and in the
central nervous system (CNS) of animals, including humans. It is popularly thought to be a
contributor to feelings of well-being and happiness.

Dopamine functions as a neurotransmitter—a chemical released by nerve cells to send
signals to other nerve cells. The brain includes several distinct dopamine systems, one of
which plays a major role in reward-motivated behavior. Every type of reward that has
been studied increases the level of dopamine in the brain, and a variety of addictive drugs,
including stimulants such as cocaine, amphetamine, and methamphetamine, act by
amplifying the effects of dopamine.

It is coincidental that the words “dope” and “dopamine” are similar. The word “dope” comes
from the Dutch word “doop” which means a sauce or rich gravy and was used to describe a
liquid form of opium in the 1800’s.

Norepinephrine, is a catecholamine with multiple roles including as a hormone and a
neurotransmitter. It is the hormone and neurotransmitter most responsible for vigilant
concentration in contrast to its most chemically similar hormone, dopamine, most responsible
for cognitive alertness.

Epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) is a hormone and a neurotransmitter. Epinephrine
has many functions in the body, regulating heart rate, blood vessel and air passage diameters,
and metabolic shifts; epinephrine release is a crucial component of the fight-or-flight
response.

Adrenaline junkie, is somebody who appears to be addicted to endogenous epinephrine. The
"high" is caused by self-inducing a fight-or-flight response by intentionally engaging in
stressful or risky behavior, which causes a release of epinephrine by the adrenal gland.
Adrenaline junkies appear to favor stressful activities for the release of epinephrine as a stress
response. Whether or not the positive response is caused specifically by epinephrine is
difficult to determine, as endorphins are also released during the fight-or-flight response to
such activities.

Phenethylamine, is well known for psychoactive drug and stimulant effects.
Phenylethylamine functions as a neuromodulator or neurotransmitter in the mammalian
central nervous system. In addition to its presence in mammals, phenethylamine is found in
many other organisms and foods, such as chocolate, especially after microbial fermentation.
It is sold as a dietary supplement for purported mood and weight loss-related therapeutic
benefits; however, orally ingested phenethylamine is usually inactive because of extensive
first-pass metabolism by monoamine oxidase (MAO) into phenylacetic acid. This prevents
significant concentrations from reaching the brain.[

Tyramine, is a naturally occurring monoamine compound and trace amine derived from the
amino acid tyrosine. Notably, however, it is unable to cross the blood-brain barrier, resulting
in only nonpsychoactive peripheral sympathomimetic effects. A hypertensive crisis can
result from ingestion of tyramine-rich foods in conjunction with monoamine oxidase
inhibitors (MAOIs); hence the need for a strict diet when on an Ayahuasca journey.

Tryptamine, is a monoamine alkaloid found in plants, fungi, and animals. It contains an
indole ring structure, and is structurally similar to the amino acid tryptophan, from which it
derives its name. Tryptamine is found in trace amounts in the brains of mammals and is
believed to play a role as a neuromodulator or neurotransmitter. The chemical structure is the
backbone for a group of compounds termed collectively tryptamines. This group includes
many biologically active compounds, including neurotransmitters and psychedelic drugs. It
also acts as a serotonin releasing agent and a serotonergic activity enhancer. It is metabolised
by MAO-A and MAO-B.

Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a psychedelic compound of the tryptamine family. Its
presence is widespread throughout the plant kingdom. DMT occurs in trace amounts in
mammals, including humans, where it functions as a trace amine
neurotransmitter/neuromodulator. The significance of its widespread natural presence
remains undetermined. Functionally, DMT is analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-
HT), the hormone melatonin, and other psychedelic tryptamines, such as bufotenin, psilocin
and psilocybin.

When ingested, DMT acts as a psychedelic drug. Depending on the dose and method of
administration, its subjective effects can range from short-lived milder psychedelic states to
powerful immersive experiences; these are often described as a total loss of connection to
external reality and an experience of encountering indescribable spiritual/alien realms.
Indigenous Amazonian Amerindian cultures consume DMT as the primary psychoactive in
ayahuasca, a shamanistic brew used for divinatory and healing purposes.

Neuromodulators secreted by a small group of neurons diffuse through large areas of the nervous
system, affecting multiple neurons. Examples of neuromodulators include dopamine, serotonin,
acetylcholine, histamine and others.

Acetylcholine (ACh) is an organic molecule that acts as a neurotransmitter in many organisms,
including humans. In the central nervous system, ACh has a variety of effects as a neuromodulator
upon plasticity, arousal and reward. ACh has an important role in the enhancement of sensory
perceptions when we wake up, in sustaining attention and has also been shown to promote REM
sleep.


Ghislain

Dr.Zoidberg
11-11-2013, 06:14 PM
Dr. Zoidberg, do you think that “happiness is a symptom or indicator of balance or
harmony” even when some people find happiness in turmoil and stress filled situations?

Ghislain

Yes, it seems to fit the pattern. If someone has inner turmoil and stress, it is not unusual for them to find happiness in manifesting this externally or putting themselves in such a situation, even if it is sub-consciously done.

That being said, there are always exceptions of course :)

Ghislain
11-11-2013, 09:02 PM
Yes Dr. Zoidberg I see your point...it is their way to find a balance.

I would like to point out that I have only asked a question and made a point. I could just agree with
anyone on anything, but then why discuss anything? The whole point of setting the question was for
discussion, not to attack anyone’s beliefs or state my point of view. If I had created this post to talk
of how enlightenment brings "happiness and knowing" I am sure I would have had a completely
different response; would my argument have been challenged, it is difficult to say as that was not
the theme of this thread.

I look for open minds for if the mind is closed then nothing gets in or out. It is like being given a
fortune and burying it so it is not wasted...it was already wasted the minute it was buried!

I learned to have an open mind when I realised how closed minded my religious community was;
always preaching to the choir, so to speak, but if you question the book you're either an idiot or an
heretic.

http://walkwithchristgospelradio.com/JesusSheep.gif

No! ... An Abattoir is a Health Spa for Sheep! ...Trust me!



III: “You think that going through life devoid of emotions is worthwhile and that people who have
emotions (generic) are comparable to junkies?”

No III I was asking if we are going through life ruled by our chemical emotions/feelings/moods, and
are we comparable to junkies.

Questioning is healthy!

Some people say they wish they were free as a bird; watch the birds, they are constantly on guard
for danger, how free are they...I enjoy being as free as a human, but it doesn’t mean I am oblivious
to the dangers, but still I don’t really think I am likely to get eaten on my way to work.

Free as a bird :confused:


If we think we have reached our destination what comes next?


III:I doubt that most drug addicts are enjoying their lives. In fact they are a pretty miserable bunch in
my experience with miserable relationships. How many drug addicts would you expect to practice
Tantric Alchemy for much of their lives.

III What tells us of this? ...The down and out addicts? ...what about the rich ones who can afford their fix;
those who can buy from reputable suppliers, whose purchase isn’t cut with who-knows-what sort of poisons?

Are you aware that heroin is a clean drug? That is to say it leaves the body with little to no side effects and
to give it up is easier than giving up tobacco. It is the garbage the greedy suppliers put into it and its price
that cause the problems. Would you eat food bulked out with who-knows-what? Those that can’t afford the
hyped up prices decent food costs these days probably do and so do their children. It is only because of its
illegality that the pushers are able to doctor their product in this way.

Adverse effects of Heroin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Adverse_effects)


Like most opioids, unadulterated heroin does not cause many long-term complications other than
dependence and constipation. Due to increased vulnerability to infectious agents, particularly
viruses and intracellular bacteria resulting from the suppression of various cell-mediated immune
pathways, the use of heroin and other opioids, even at normal therapeutic levels, may lead to
opportunistic infections, which carry their own lasting effects.

Withdrawl symptoms ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Withdrawal)


Symptoms may include:

sweating, malaise, anxiety, depression, akathisia, priapism, extra sensitivity of the genitals in
females, general feeling of heaviness, excessive yawning or sneezing, tears, rhinorrhea, sleep
difficulties (insomnia), cold sweats, chills, severe muscle and bone aches, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea,
cramps, watery eyes, fever and cramp-like pains and involuntary spasms in the limbs (thought to be
an origin of the term "kicking the habit").

All sounds pretty nasty doesn’t it?



The "powers that be" give addicts on rehabilitation the Heroin substitute Methodone.


Adverse effects of Methadone ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methadone#Adverse_effects)


Thrombus (blood clots), Diarrhea, or constipation, Flushing, Perspiration and sweating, Heat
intolerance, Dizziness, or fainting, Weakness, Chronic fatigue, sleepiness and exhaustion, Sleep
problems such as drowsiness, trouble falling asleep (Insomnia)and trouble staying asleep,
Constricted pupils, Dry mouth, Nausea and vomiting, Low blood pressure, Hallucinations or
confusion, Headache, Heart problems such as chest pain or fast/pounding heartbeat, Cardiac
arrhythmia, Respiratory problems such as trouble breathing, slow or shallow breathing
(hypoventilation), light-headedness or fainting, Loss of appetite, and in extreme cases Anorexia,
Weight gain, Gynecomastia (enlargement of male breast tissue), Memory loss, Stomach pains, Dry
mouth, Itching, Difficulty urinating, Swelling of the hands, arms, feet, and legs, Feeling restless or
agitated, Mood changes, Nervousness or anxiety, Blurred vision, Decreased libido, missed menstrual
periods, difficulty in reaching orgasm and impotence, Skin rash, Seizures, Sudden Death.

Withdrawal symptoms of Methodone.


Physical symptoms:

Lightheadedness, Tearing of the eyes, Mydriasis (dilated pupils), Photophobia (sensitivity to light),
Hyperventilation syndrome (breathing that is too fast/deep), Runny nose, Yawning, Sneezing,
Nausea, vomiting and diarrhea, Severe itching, Fever, Sweating, Chills, Tremors, Akathisia
(restlessness), Tachycardia (fast heartbeat), Aches and pains (often in the joints and/or legs),
Elevated pain sensitivity, Blood pressure that is too low (hypotension) or too high (hypertension,
may cause stroke), sudden cardiac death.

Cognitive symptoms,

Suicidal ideation, Susceptibility to Cravings, Depression, Reduced breathing (may be fatal between
2–4 hours), Spontaneous orgasm, Prolonged insomnia Delirium, Auditory hallucinations, Visual
hallucinations, Increased perception of odors (olfaction, real or imagined) Marked decrease or
increase in sex drive, Agitation, Anxiety, Panic disorder, Nervousness, Paranoia, Delusions, Apathy,
Anorexia (symptom).

Methodone is manufactured by Eli Lilly ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Lilly_and_Company#Controversy) and to give some Idea of their worth one lawsuit
brought against them in 2009 was settled at $1.415 billion. Who are the real drug lords?

Can you see how we are all lied to, and we “love” it, unquestioningly.

Grrr those dirty horrible drug addicts! :Wags a finger:

If you want to know some more then check out:

List of misconceptions about illegal drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_misconceptions_about_illegal_drugs)

By the way...I am not a drug user...in the common sense of the word. I am regularly drug tested for
my work and that test came up negative the day after an Ayahuasca Ceremony. How do you test for
something your own body produces? Yet my friend who is anti-drug came up positive because he
had eaten bread with poppy seeds that morning lol. He was stood down from work until it was
sorted out.


III: People can use emotions to drive prayer or delusions. As the creation of illusion is of course a
hazard of life and frequently done, that is one of the propensities the budding Alchemist needs to be
aware of. The most dangerous are the intentional lies to self despite one's own objections, that are
put in place as if true.

That is all I was trying to say!


III: I imagine most of us have tried all sorts of things. Ayahuasca, after the vomiting was a good and
enjoyable experience. It wasn't until later that I looked up the contents and found out that the MAOI
in it interacts, potentially fatally, with any of several prescription and OTC drugs I was taking.
Knowing of the possibility of fatal interaction in advance might have changed the experience. So how
would that apply to the previous emotional illusion idea? However, I wouldn't have done it knowing
that.

III that is why you have to do it under the guidance of an expert, and who better than those who
have used it for, perhaps, thousands of years.

Ghislain

Krisztian
11-11-2013, 09:28 PM
Dan Gilbert doesn't understand, nor contemplated his assumptions [of belief in evolution], that maybe our "ancestors" didn't need simulation capacity (of the frontal lobe) because they lived in a non-dualistic mind. Nor sounds to produce languages. That part perhaps "evolved" because humanity lost sense of unity consciousness. (Older languages like Hungarian and Sumerian actually have much more richer expressions and structures than modern ones like Anglo.)

So what he says is backwards.

Why do we need to believe that we're more evolved than people in the past?

III
11-12-2013, 06:11 AM
Hi Ghislain,

III: “You think that going through life devoid of emotions is worthwhile and that people who have emotions (generic) are comparable to junkies?”




No III I was asking if we are going through life ruled by our chemical emotions/feelings/moods, and are we comparable to junkies.

Questioning is healthy!

Yes, it is, I was questioning what was behind your statements. I certainly suspect some people are ruled by their emotions, feelings, moods, etc. and go through life comparable to junkies and others don't. Then there are those ruled by the dream they don't even know they are living in. So few wake up into that knowledge.


Some people say they wish they were free as a bird; watch the birds, they are constantly on guard for danger, how free are they...I enjoy being as free as a human, but it doesn’t mean I am oblivious to the dangers, but still I don’t really think I am likely to get eaten on my way to work. Free as a bird :confused:

I have two birds, and I would have never had them except for the accidents of life. They don't have a wild life. They have a pampered life, protected, fed and comfortable. The wild birds are constantly on watch for predators. My large parrot that can't fly away, keeps an eye to the sky when he is outside, watching for death from the sky. He likes to sit under cover to feel safe. I had just taken him inside my RV this summer when a Grosse hawk flew and landed not 5 feet away from where he had been sitting several minutes before. Free to be eaten. From the predators he saw around the mountains he preferred to sleep in his cage instead of on top of it even inside the RV.

If we think we have reached our destination what comes next?

What destination?

III:I doubt that most drug addicts are enjoying their lives. In fact they are a pretty miserable bunch in my experience with miserable relationships. How many drug addicts would you expect to practice Tantric Alchemy for much of their lives.



III What tells us of this? ...The down and out addicts? ...what about the rich ones who can afford their fix; those who can buy from reputable suppliers, whose purchase isn’t cut with who-knows-what sort of poisons?

Who tells you that versus who tells me might be a very different thing. When I worked Friday nights as a volunteer for the Community Crisis Center, I dealt with whoever called in. There were 4-6 of us on a typical weekend evening. It started with bad trips and as the times changed ended up teenaged girls suicidal over abusive boy friends. Later most of the calls turned to rape calls. The bad trip calls were the easy ones. We never got calls from needle drug users. There wasn't the prescription addict we see so much of these days. Working in the group health field, at the top of the information chain, I sat. Interesting view. The addicts get nicked on certain types of bogus complaints in switching primary care physicians, among other things. However, you miss "How many drug addicts would you expect to practice Tantric Alchemy for much of their lives. " entirely.

I don't work with addicts. They take 100% of the time. They can't get through cleansing. They run, as fast as they can. They have to lie to themselves too much and can't stand up to KNOW THY SELF.


Are you aware that heroin is a clean drug? That is to say it leaves the body with little to no side effects and to give it up is easier than giving up tobacco.

Heroin, diaceytal-morphine, converted to morphine on first pass metabolism, so is injected to get the highly lipid soluble heroin into the brain for its unique effect, otherwise it is just morphine. And it is easier and faster to do a comfortable withdrawal from than is tobacco.

The problem of addiction is not largely that of dirty drugs. The best predictors of who is going to become an addict to prescription drugs are tobacco addiction, 85%, alcoholic 85%, Tobacco and alcohol, 80% or were in the paper I read maybe a decade ago. The pill addicts create their own dirty drugs injecting things never designed to be injected. They self destruct their personal lives. These are the successful addicts who are still functional enough to be working typically.





viruses and intracellular bacteria resulting from the suppression of various cell-mediated immune pathways, the use of heroin and other opioids, even at normal therapeutic levels, may lead to opportunistic infections, which carry their own lasting effects.

I can't agree with that at the macro level. I literally have corresponded with thousands of people taking opioids (morphine, oxycodone, and half a dozen others), worked in the business and taken opioids at therapeutic levels for 23 years now, morphine for the last 13. That above statement is not correct. If they have immune problems they already have those. People being prescribed opioids, at least in the USA, contrary to a lot of mythology, are usually pretty damned sick and/or damaged people with likely many undiscovered problems and genetics. Some studies have even found that opioids may have a positive effect against viruses and bacteria. I would tend to believe that secondary effects of drug abuse is being seen. I was accused of being an alcoholic for years because my blood profile was similar, lots of abnormalities from vitamin deficiencies. I was kicked out of practices for "lying" about my alcohol usage. I would start to say "A couple of six packs .." doc interrupting "per day?" and I say "No, per year". When I insist on that I get kicked out because they won't treat somebody lying about such an important thing. So much for objectivity.




The powers that be give addicts on rehabilitation the Heroin substitute Methadone.

Yup. That is the nastiest drug to come off of besides Klonopin and valium, I've ever come across. I have generated tapers for thousands of people on many different drugs. It is very difficult to taper without somebody who understands it. The easiest way to taper methadone is switch to morphine for 3 months, then taper normally. It's much faster than trying to taper methadone.

Can you see how we are all lied to, and we “love” it, unquestioningly. Grrr those dirty horrible drug addicts! :Wags a finger:

It gets a lot worse than urban legends. When researchers get it wrong it really hurts.




III: People can use emotions to drive prayer or delusions. As the creation of illusion is of course a hazard of life and frequently done, that is one of the propensities the budding Alchemist needs to be aware of. The most dangerous are the intentional lies to self despite one's own objections, that are put in place as if true.

That is all I was trying to say!

Good, we have reached understanding through discussion.



III: I imagine most of us have tried all sorts of things. Ayahuasca, after the vomiting was a good and enjoyable experience. It wasn't until later that I looked up the contents and found out that the MAOI in it interacts, potentially fatally, with any of several prescription and OTC drugs I was taking. Knowing of the possibility of fatal interaction in advance might have changed the experience. So how would that apply to the previous emotional illusion idea? However, I wouldn't have done it knowing that.




III that is why you have to do it under the guidance of an expert, and who better than those who have used it for, perhaps, thousands of years.

I did indeed do it under the guidance of an expert, a South American shaman with lots of experience. I was invited as was everybody there and while I was given and followed dietary advice, NOTHING was said about medications. The lineage of the shaman had thousands of years of experience but not of medicinal drugs in the USA. Because of my ignorance of the situation there was no influence of fear on my experience and I was alive afterwards to walk out.

Ghislain
11-12-2013, 10:38 AM
How many drug addicts would you expect to practice Tantric Alchemy for much of their lives.

III We see addicts from the outside...I imagine many may practice something similar to
what you have labelled. They are probably on the same journey as us, just using a
different vehicle. Remember people don't take drugs to look dishevelled and dirty,
that is a by-product of what they are doing; we mustn't judge a book by its cover.

Read...

Psychoactive Plants in Tantric Buddhism
Cannabis and Datura Use in Indo-Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism (http://www.erowid.org/spirit/traditions/buddhism/buddhism_tantra_article1.shtml)

Then try a "Realitysandwich (http://www.realitysandwich.com/energy_ego_and_entheogens)" by Martin W Ball

Ghislain

III
11-13-2013, 06:17 AM
III We see addicts from the outside...I imagine many may practice something similar to
what you have labelled. They are probably on the same journey as us, just using a
different vehicle. Remember people don't take drugs to look dishevelled and dirty,
that is a by-product of what they are doing; we mustn't judge a book by its cover.

Read...

Psychoactive Plants in Tantric Buddhism (http://www.erowid.org/spirit/traditions/buddhism/buddhism_tantra_article1.shtml)
Cannabis and Datura Use in Indo-Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism (http://www.erowid.org/spirit/traditions/buddhism/buddhism_tantra_article1.shtml)

Then try a "Realitysandwich (http://www.realitysandwich.com/energy_ego_and_entheogens)" by Martin W Ball

Ghislain

Hi Ghislain,

Interesting on the plants in Tantric Buddhism.

RealitySandwich, interesting. So what do you think of what he has to say.

We see addicts from the outside...I imagine many may practice something similar to what you have labelled. They are probably on the same journey as us, just using a different vehicle. Remember people don't take drugs to look dishevelled and dirty, that is a by-product of what they are doing; we mustn't judge a book by its cover.

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Or perhaps we don't have a similar meaning of "addict". While they may ultimately be on the same journey they are quite unteachable until they have dealt with the causes of addiction. I don't care what they look like. A rich clean well dressed addict is just as completely unteachable. There is no way that they can do Tantric Alchemy. They can't open to shaktipat. They lie to themselves and insist it is true and won't/can't put that down. They are pathological liars. Can you actually trust an addict? They need much preliminary work before they can even get started on more alchemical work. It's no different with a tobacco or alcohol addict. The flaws that add up to a person being an addict have to be dealt with before they can go deeper. There has to be a mutual trust that can't happen with an addict, before they are teachable Without trust in a workgroup, there is no work group possible. Their thinking is too distorted. I always look under the cover. If I agree to teach someone it is a sizable commitment for both of us. They need to be able to make and keep such a commitment. An addict can't.

Andro
11-13-2013, 07:58 AM
Perhaps we don't have a similar meaning of "addict".

What is your meaning of 'addict'?

What would be your definition of 'addiction'?

In your view, is addiction a 'black or white' condition? Or more of a continuum? Or a wide variety of substances/behaviors/needs/beliefs/etc?

Ghislain
11-13-2013, 08:00 AM
III: I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. Or perhaps we don't have a similar meaning of "addict".
While they may ultimately be on the same journey they are quite unteachable until they have dealt with the
causes of addiction. I don't care what they look like. A rich clean well dressed addict is just as completely
unteachable. There is no way that they can do Tantric Alchemy. They can't open to shaktipat. They lie to
themselves and insist it is true and won't/can't put that down. They are pathological liars. Can you actually
trust an addict? They need much preliminary work before they can even get started on more alchemical work.
It's no different with a tobacco or alcohol addict. The flaws that add up to a person being an addict have to be
dealt with before they can go deeper. There has to be a mutual trust that can't happen with an addict, before
they are teachable Without trust in a workgroup, there is no work group possible. Their thinking is too
distorted. I always look under the cover. If I agree to teach someone it is a sizable commitment for both of us.
They need to be able to make and keep such a commitment. An addict can't.

III I have never worked with addicts and so my understanding is limited; I shall take your
comment as an educated description.

I have habits and whether they are actually addictions I am not sure, but someone once told
me that if a person has one drink a day and they are adversely affected by missing that
one drink then it was most likely an addiction.

So I may be an addict myself. I am not sure if saying I am in denial is too strong a word,
perhaps self deluded, as I don’t think I have any areas I am not willing to openly question.

I find the subject interesting, but we may be going a little off topic so to bring it into
perspective for this thread I have to include the question, "do you think it possible that we
could be addicted - in the real sense of the word - to our natural endogenous narcotics"?

If the answer is YES then does this mean there is no way that we can do Tantric Alchemy, as
we can't open to shaktipat. Do we lie to ourselves and insist it is true and won't/can't put
that down. Are we pathological liars? Can you actually trust anyone? Do we need much
preliminary work before we can even get started on more alchemical work? Do we need to
deal with our flaws that add up to us being addicts before we can go deeper? Can we form a
mutual trust as the addicts that we are? Is our thinking too distorted?

Are we emotional addicts? Could this be our barrier to the truth?

If the answer is NO then could we be addicts in denial or self deluded?

Keep in mind that just because we don't stick needles in our arms does not mean we don't
get our daily fix.

[with an addict the source of their addiction can be removed, how do we remove the endogenous source?]


III on the subject of "Reality Sandwich", Ball could have been inside my head.

Ghislain

Edit: reading that back people may come to the conclusion that I have to have one drink a day...:)
I don't often drink alcohol.

III
11-13-2013, 08:17 AM
III I have never worked with addicts and so my understanding is limited; I shall take your
comment as an educated description.

I have habits and whether they are actually addictions I am not sure, but someone once told
me that if a person has one drink a day and they are adversely affected by missing that
one drink then it was most likely an addiction.

So I may be an addict myself. I am not sure if saying I am in denial is too strong a word,
perhaps self deluded, as I don’t think I have any areas I am not willing to openly question.

I find the subject interesting, but we may be going a little off topic so to bring it into
perspective for this thread I have to include the question, "do you think it possible that we
could be addicted - in the real sense of the word - to our natural endogenous narcotics"?

If the answer is YES then does this mean there is no way that we can do Tantric Alchemy, as
we can't open to shaktipat. Do we lie to ourselves and insist it is true and won't/can't put
that down. Are we pathological liars? Can you actually trust anyone? Do we need much
preliminary work before we can even get started on more alchemical work? Do we need to
deal with our flaws that add up to us being addicts before we can go deeper? Can we form a
mutual trust as the addicts that we are? Is our thinking too distorted?

Are we emotional addicts? Could this be our barrier to the truth?

If the answer is NO then could we be addicts in denial or self deluded?

Keep in mind that just because we don't stick needles in our arms does not mean we don't
get our daily fix.

Ghislain

Edit: reading that back people may come to the conclusion that I have to have one drink a day...:)
I dont often drink alchohol.

Hi Ghislain,


What would stop you from opening totally to LOVE? What do you fear losing? How little exposure to LOVE does it take to trigger a reaction? 1/10 second? 10 seconds? A couple of minutes? For an addict issues come up nonstop upon small exposure. It can take some people years or never being able to get into trance.

Addicted to fear? Addicted to a specific ego self image? Addicted to alcohol, tobacco, and who knows? Addicted to endorphins? Fear of loss of wealth? Fear of loss? Fear of death? I don't know.

As it is late, I may decide to make an entirely different response tomorrow.

Ghislain
11-13-2013, 09:45 AM
III thanks for your reply and I can absolutely empathise with you wanting to respond
when not tired :)

But may I ask you, when you respond, could you give me your definition of Love?

Thanks

Ghislain

Krisztian
11-13-2013, 03:08 PM
An addict by definition is someone who plans to have one drink, which turns into many. In other words, lost control over impulses, paving the way to dependence. There's a difference between abuse and dependence. Maybe this could be a new Thread? The Alcohol Dependence Scale (ADS) can give some insight into some of these patterns, http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/attachements.cfm/att_4075_EN_tads.pdf

But I do see the point that perhaps what defines humanity best, has in common, is addiction to emotions (I mean that as in neurochemicals).

III
11-13-2013, 07:17 PM
III thanks for your reply and I can absolutely empathise with you wanting to respond
when not tired :)

But may I ask you, when you respond, could you give me your definition of Love?

Thanks

Ghislain

Hi Ghislain,


III on the subject of "Reality Sandwich", Ball could have been inside my head.

Let's take Ball. His implied metaphysics are close enough to mine that we should be able to get things working. I'm not an orthodox "anything". I found that the traditional descriptions were lacking or went too far in personal descriptions and not generalized enough, as he did, or completely lacked certain ideas he has found central. Of course this goes along that the idea that the teachings have to be given anew to each generation because the language and cultural shifts make earlier ones less than fully understandable. In my descriptions I had incorporated many of the things he speaks of as symmetry, and balance, and "leaning to one side", not being "vertical" (balanced, centered, not leaning off to a side). I speak of "turning the dream mechanism off" and he speaks of "turning the ego off" or whatever. He has done/is doing what Haule speaks of in the synopsis.

He appears to use the "single chakra" model, one big heart chakra incorporating ALL into the LOVE.

So now lets get to this "LOVE" business. In LIFE IN THE LABRYNTH, EJ Gold makes a lot of effort to describe LOVE. The chapter is called LIGHTNING HANDLERS ALWAYS CRACKLE. "To understand love is to dissolve the self and the subjective mysteries of appearances into it." "If we are to work effectively, we must not let our natural primate fear of the raw force of love to be a barrier to the living presence of the Absolute"...."Often one doesn't know how to identify the fear; it may cause some embarrassment, shame or humiliation, eventually producing in oneself a definite apprehension, one might say, a fear of fear".

So functionally speaking, picture several persons sitting together for a work session. I help some people into some discomfort last year when we, my partner and I, brought another couple into trance with us. Instead of taking an hour to do so with lots of ritual and obfuscation, we did so in about 3 minutes flat with no words, no fuss and no ritual. They both hit the wall with their biggest fears. They had been learning how to enter certain spaces over the past year. We took them one notch past where they were used to going and whamo. And of course since this is a shared experience in love, we knew and experienced their issues with them, the idea being then that they can see/understand/clear their issues once they are exposed and reflected in LOVE, that energy of universal consciousness, the One. A person who can't bear the thought of another seeing them to their core will not return

The temporary bifurcation, or illusion of such, allows that conscious LOVE to have "potential" (voltage?) and for it to bridge the gap (or illusion thereof). It is really much easier to do than to explain. That jolt of energy, of shared LOVE, is shaktipat and carries information, understanding, knowing.

In the usual beginner (relative term) learning, the neophyte makes one step into LOVE before hitting an issue, seeing themselves in a way different than their ego preference and freaking about it. A person who is going to make progress makes it one step (of whatever scale) further each time. A person who isn't going to make progress comes back to the same thing over and over and over and can't let it go, re-understand or whatever is needed to get past that blockage to more LOVE. Usually they strengthen that blockage to make sure that they will not get past it, or even up to it, again. That is all of the ego.

The things that are hit first are the things that keep one farthest away from LOVE. Some people will literally get up and get out as fast as possible. If they come back, they have a decent chance of learning. One writer called all of it Narcissism that is the root of all misunderstanding. Whatever it is, the addict wants to hang onto that much more than they want to open to LOVE and seeing themselves. In that sense an addict is very selfish. By their behaviors they and their "issues" dominate every session and if they have anything to say about it, it is always "Round and round the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel..." and never getting anywhere near the heart of the matter. They can keep that endless chase going as long as it keeps them from seeing themselves. If they keep being brought back to "what about this?" they will leave, often very indignantly blaming everybody else. They do not accept self responsibility (again, as Ball points out).


Addition: I want to say I am only talking about my own personal practice of Alchemy. People I am dealing with short term for healing are a whole different matter. They don't have to be able to participate in the same way.

Ghislain
11-14-2013, 04:02 PM
III this is perhaps going way off topic and perhaps should be the beginning of another thread, but...

I am sure you are familiar with Chandra Mohan Jain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osho) (AKA Acharya Rajneesh, AKA Bhagwan Shree
Rajneesh and probably best remembered as Osho) who was an Indian mystic, guru and spiritual
teacher.

When a correspondent asked Rajneesh for his "ten commandments". He noted that it was a difficult
matter because he was against any kind of commandment, but "just for fun" listed the following:


1. Never obey anyone's command unless it is coming from within you also.
2. There is no God other than life itself.
3. Truth is within you, do not search for it elsewhere.
4. Love is prayer.
5. To become a nothingness is the door to truth. Nothingness itself is the means, the goal and attainment.
6. Life is now and here.
7. Live wakefully.
8. Do not swim—float.
9. Die each moment so that you can be new each moment.
10. Do not search. That which is, is. Stop and see.

He placed special emphasis on 3,7,9 and 10.

On Shaktipat he was quoted as saying:



I have not used the method of shaktipat for six years because I felt there were some
flaws in it. First, the disciple has to be in a lower state than the master - which I don't
like. Nobody is lower here; nobody is higher. The disciple has to be just a receiver.
He cannot contribute anything to it. He becomes dependent also, because only when
the master touches him does he feel full of energy, full of joy, but not otherwise.

Secondly, the very idea of surrender is basically difficult, and to ask for total
surrender is to ask for the impossible. We should think in human terms. We are
dealing with human beings, we should not ask something which they cannot do. And
when they cannot do something and are condemned, they start feeling guilty that they
are not open, that they are not totally surrendered, that there are doubts in their mind.


I, personally, would find it very difficult to surrender to another in that way.

What do you think of his commandments?

Also I see that you have used the word "Love" many times in your last post, but what, in your opinion is it?

Ghislain

III
11-15-2013, 04:33 AM
Hi Ghislain,


Also I see that you have used the word "Love" many times in your last post, but what, in your opinion is it?

It's an "energy" of many names and faces. If faced with love it is a most wondrous experience. If feared, watch out. "IT" goes by many names, Kundalini, LOVE, Heart energy (realitysandwich -LOVE) and managed as none, 1, 7, 10 or thousands of chakras. In "living God(dess) communion", a teachable experience "IT" is often perceived as "feminine" by men and often "masculine" by women. However, the word love comes up with a feeling of incredible intense love. EJ Gold talks about how to work with LOVE in LIFE IN THE LABRYNTH. Prayer Absolute is a different thing.

I have real mixed feelings about Rajneesh. He says many of the right words in a more or less correct way and I don't disagree with what he says generally. It's just that the words lie there, dead on the page, book after book. With selected other writers the words are invocational and produce much more understanding than just flopped there on the page. I've heard others say the same thing, yet there are those who think he is Tony the Tiger grrrreat. I don't know what to think about his commandments. His ten aphorisms aren't bad. As commandments. I don't know.

I, personally, would find it very difficult to surrender to another in that way.


It takes a lot of people years to decades to work through all their fears that maintain the fiction. And they are rebuilding themselves at the same time. I'm going to explain it in computer language. Picture this whole system of defenses based on fears, and fears of fears and all that. Each of these things that has to be defended takes "cpu time" in a pre-emptive fashion. Each of these pre-emptive type items to some extent corrupts the logic one has built up through experience. Fears pre-emptively changes HOW one thinks. That corrupts what one thinks. It's a purification. Can you surrender in ecstasy to your Beloved? It is Eros. The energy that draws us towards opening, according to Haule's terminology any way.

Ghislain
11-15-2013, 01:40 PM
Writing in this thread has opened a few doors for me and I would like to thank
all those who participated for making it interesting and enjoyable.

The thread has made me "happy",but I think it is exhausted now, so
I will leave it here with one more link.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=834 (http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Happy)

Ghislain

III
11-15-2013, 09:45 PM
What is your meaning of 'addict'?

What would be your definition of 'addiction'?

In your view, is addiction a 'black or white' condition? Or more of a continuum? Or a wide variety of substances/behaviors/needs/beliefs/etc?
Hi Androgynus,

Addiction is a difficult definition. There is much confusion over the matters and things have changed much through the last 50 years. In the chronic pain business one has to distinguish pseudo addiction from the real thing. When a person with sufficiently severe pain is given a fraction of the amount of opioid needed to actually control the pain, one gets behaviors that can look like the dreaded addiction, always trying to get more. There is "doctor shopping". I had to interview dozens of docs to find one that would at least agree to consider opioids as a possibility after exams and so on. I had been through that "up to but not including opioids" dozens of times and it was worthless to keep paying to go through the same set of worthless or damaging treatments. So some would say I must have been a wannabe addict. The difference is that the pain patient can reach sufficiency and suddenly there is no more seeking, no more focus on the drugs. I have supplied drug taper plans to thousands off people. Speaking now only of opioids, to avoid certain paradoxically responsive people with benzos, a person who is able to take their medications on schedule, even when they don't work well, can taper. A person who has to have somebody else control access to the drug while tapering but otherwise can taper is edging up on addiction. When somebody has to pay to have themselves locked up and 3rd party control of drugs in order to taper, they are an addict. So all these expensive "detox" programs are the hallmarks of moneyed version of addiction. The addict on a concrete floor with a blanket going through cold turkey withdrawal, a common law enforcement favorite for all those "addicted" pain patients if they should have the misfortune to be picked up for a traffic ticket as well as the dirty street addict. So there is a lot of misunderstanding about accommodation versus addiction.

So suppose your doctor said "You have to stop coffee or it will kill you" could you do it? In trying to survive, I've had to change all sorts of habits. I can't eat milk and cheese. It makes me very sick, same with my partner. I quit. Others in this can't stop themselves from ice cream or a cappuccino and exhibit addict behavior around milk products, keeping themselves sick for years or decades. Any bets about how wrapped up they are in defending their behaviors? Any time they start to see themselves that will come up near the top of the list.

Starting at about age 5 I started telling my mother to "stop smoking or you will get lung cancer". I was that plain and direct. Everybody was shocked. "That's not a nice thing to say to your mother", they all said. I stopped even having the urge to say that by the time I was 20 and my maternal grandmother was dying of lung cancer. It was already too late for my mother to stop smoking and I knew that. She was an addict as was her mother. They explained her compulsive use of laxatives (bulimia) as an addiction in 1959 and she almost died from that.

There are lots of people who use all sorts of drugs for all sorts of reasons. Some become addicted and something changes. They can no longer simply stop, or taper, depending upon the drug. How about gambling addicts? They are out of control. Sex addicts? Out of control. Food? So they can't stop themselves from eating 10,000 calories a day? Addict. A person who eats 100 calories a day too much will be overweight but they won't be 500 pounds and eating massive amounts. They can actually diet with a little help. Now if they go out to fast food and pig out every day they try to decrease their eating by 200 calories maybe they are an addict too.

I tend to use a pragmatic definition. If the person can't stop doing what they are doing that is damaging their life, they may be an addict. I don't have a hard and fast rule. There was a guy who had been accused of being a sex addict who came to our work group. He was a pathological liar who decided he would pretend to play alchemy and instead play take the priestess and run and train her to be his own private "sex healer". He tried to twist the whole group to support him in his lying and to get rid of me and the work group ceased to be functional. His plans blew up in his face most spectacularly. He had to defend his lies rather than open up for shaktipat. He was unable to do so.

III
11-15-2013, 09:51 PM
Hi Ghislain,

I would be inclined to say that "happiness" is a relative thing. This is the happiest period in my life. Maybe it's because of better health and a deeply loving partner. I lack much of the shear physical misery of the bulk of my life, which is gone too. I'm having a good time as a whole. I have a project worth doing and a deeply loving alchemical and life, partner.

III
11-17-2013, 09:10 PM
There is something I would like to clarify, as regards this opening and surrender. One is faced with giving up EVERYTHING when one goes through the coming apart and re-synthesizing process. One does it over and over. Having to surrender everything at the threshold doesn't mean that one will be reformed without it. It is surrender at the threshold past which you can't carry "I will be rich" or anything else. So whatever can't be given up at the threshold becomes a sticking point. Somebody who is truly stuck on something, be it coffee or heroin or wealth or anything, or even fear of being seen, fear of seeing self or fear of fear, can't get through. They are unable to quiet the ego enough to realize that they are talking about giving up the "attracted or repelled" items for the moment without guarantee that they will be back after the self reconstitutes. In other words the ego wants to control what one will become because if the "desire for the xxx" isn't in the reconstituted self that new self will never miss it. So it is fear of maybe not having in a hypothetical future what the current ego wants most strongly that keeps the person locked up.

Andro
11-19-2013, 08:44 AM
Although this thread went 'off-topic' quite a lot (with regard to its originally stated purpose), and with more than just occasional TMI, I don't think it would have beeen constructive to split it.

Some threads just have a sort of organic flow of their own, and it's not something to fuck around with, IMO :)

Subjectively, for me, the 'conclusion' it boiled down to is an (inevitable) eventual correlation between happiness and surrender.

Once this correlation is realized and acted upon, I don't see a need to use the 'starter terminology' anymore.

Past certain points, words lose meaning much faster than they can convey it :)
_______________________________
IMSU (In My Subjective Understanding)

Lunsola
12-17-2013, 07:24 AM
This is a cannabis high chart... or maybe that was the point? If it was the point then I don't like to go past 3/4 these days. Any stronger than that and I might as well revert to alcohol.

:cool:

Oh yeah that's the point for me at least. I like the taste of a lot of drinks but my body really doesn't have much tolerance for alcohol unfortunately. Plus alcohol is more damaging to the body and empty calories. Cannabis is just way better imo.

Ghislain
01-20-2014, 05:15 PM
I have been pondering the question in this thread and I think I may have come to a semi-conclusion.

Happiness is a marker for things we would like to repeat. It is our way of remembering a beneficial event.

So the chemically induced feeling is the what and the learning is the why.

IMHO

Ghislain

III
01-20-2014, 05:38 PM
Although this thread went 'off-topic' quite a lot (with regard to its originally stated purpose), and with more than just occasional TMI, I don't think it would have beeen constructive to split it.

Some threads just have a sort of organic flow of their own, and it's not something to fuck around with, IMO :)

Subjectively, for me, the 'conclusion' it boiled down to is an (inevitable) eventual correlation between happiness and surrender.

Once this correlation is realized and acted upon, I don't see a need to use the 'starter terminology' anymore.

Past certain points, words lose meaning much faster than they can convey it :)
_______________________________
IMSU (In My Subjective Understanding)


One of E.J. Gold's books is THE JOY OF SACRIFICE.

Is "joy' and "happiness" approximately similar? It would IMSU be so.

Andro
01-20-2014, 06:51 PM
One of E.J. Gold's books is THE JOY OF SACRIFICE.

Is "joy' and "happiness" approximately similar? It would IMSU be so.

I would say yes. And if the meanings we assign to those concepts are aligned, I'd say we're in splendid agreement. (Me and you? Me and E.J. Gold?)

And it wouldn't be seen as 'sacrifice' anymore, once this stage is reached. The term would become irrelevant at this point, just as 'surrender' would now be equal with 'perfect alignment'.

No more tension. No more misinterpretation/misunderstanding. No more separation.

'Surrender'?

'Sacrifice'?

What's that???

IMSU :)

III
01-20-2014, 08:59 PM
I would say yes. And if the meanings we assign to those concepts are aligned, I'd say we're in splendid agreement. (Me and you? Me and E.J. Gold?)

And it wouldn't be seen as 'sacrifice' anymore, once this stage is reached. The term would become irrelevant at this point, just as 'surrender' would now be equal with 'perfect alignment'.

No more tension. No more misinterpretation/misunderstanding. No more separation.

'Surrender'?

'Sacrifice'?

What's that???

IMSU :)



And if the meanings we assign to those concepts are aligned, I'd say we're in splendid agreement


We are. EJ speaks of the "sacrifice of ordinary life", the sacrifice of "sanity" and so on. He illustrates each chapter page with a drawing of different folks including the one I remember for sanity, Timothy Leary.

Ghislain
01-25-2014, 01:11 AM
I have been pondering the question in this thread and I think I may have come to a semi-conclusion.

Happiness is a marker for things we would like to repeat. It is our way of remembering a beneficial event.

So the chemically induced feeling is the what and the learning is the why.

IMHO

Ghislain

In addition to what I wrote in the post above, one has to be careful with what makes one happy. If it is indeed a marker for things we would like to repeat then one should be sure that it is something beneficial rather than detrimental to our future being.

There is a plethora of different situations that inspire happiness within a person and not all are good, but once the happiness is produced then the person is likely to pursue the reproduction of the given situation.

How does one separate one from the other?

Ghislain

Andro
07-03-2014, 03:35 AM
I applied my Heart to know Wisdom, and to know Madness and Folly.
I perceived that this also was a Chasing of the Wind.
For in much Wisdom is much Grief, and He who increaseth Knowledge, increaseth Sorrow

- - - Solomon (the one from the bible), allegedly.

Krisztian
07-03-2014, 03:47 AM
. . . . once the happiness is produced then the person is likely to pursue the reproduction of the given situation.

That's the definition of boredom to me, 'reproduction' as you say; yes, maybe predictability therefore for most a sense of security. For I agree, humanity is in survival mode, needing of security.

Happiness is truly realized when thought-imagined manifests in reality by the experience of it. Since most are very disconnected from their thinking, it would seem like "good luck" when things go well, but for those who're aware it is like realizing our god-nature, the freedom to live joyously.

Andro
01-20-2015, 09:03 AM
There's this new movie: Hector and the Search for Happiness (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1626146/)


A psychiatrist searches the globe to find the secret of happiness.

Ghislain
01-20-2015, 01:19 PM
Thanks Androgynus, just finished watching "Hector and the Search for Happiness" (http://www.alluc.com/l/Hector-and-the-Search-for-Happiness-WEBRip-mkv/gp8bub44)

Unfortunately I watched a version with foreign subtitles which overwrote the quotes through the film :(

However I did like those I got such as... (beware spoilers below)

"Avoiding unhappiness is not the road to happiness"

"Happiness is being loved for who you are"

"People who are afraid of death are afraid of life"

"Listening is loving"

"We should not concern ourselves so much with the pursuit of happiness but with the happiness of the pursuit"

and the conclusion to all this...

"We all have an obligation to be happy"

:)

I concur


Ghislain

Andro
02-21-2015, 04:21 PM
This might as well have been posted on Transcendent Man & The Singularity (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3821-Transcendent-Man-amp-The-Singularity)...

(http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3821-Transcendent-Man-amp-The-Singularity)But this thread will do...[/URL]

See: [U]The Hedonistic Imperative (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3821-Transcendent-Man-amp-The-Singularity)

Damn ! ! !

:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:
(http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3821-Transcendent-Man-amp-The-Singularity)

Ghislain
02-21-2015, 07:38 PM
I'm up to 1.7...it is a gripping read, my head is thrown one way then another as I see the benefits and the pitfalls...

I know you don't like posts that thank...but thanks ;)

Ghislain

Ghislain
02-23-2015, 03:23 PM
I realise that the link Androgynus posted above takes us to an extensively long text that may fluster some readers. As the message David Pearce, the author of the piece, is so important I have included some videos of Pearce summarising his hypothesis below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v07VZIQyoMc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLtC-50lrK4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcajIIcRgys

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-19-2015, 07:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXy__kBVq1M

Ghislain

Ghislain
08-19-2015, 07:58 AM
Watching the video above I realise the advantage of happiness in an evolutionary sense.

IMO happy people are the people that move us forward in a positive way, being more positive with a can do attitude.

Negative people...most of us...have some of our brain centers closed off as a damage limitation exercise so we don't enhance the negative.

Imagine what a world we could create with more positivity.

Ghislain

Awani
08-19-2015, 06:19 PM
Yes and I think I have said it before. What makes us happy is finding a 'positive 'purpose' in life.

:cool:

Ghislain
08-23-2015, 02:43 PM
While creating another thread, The Brain (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4488-The-Brain&p=38981#post38981), I came across a video that I feel would be appropriate for this thread as it points out the chemical reactions that lead to our emotions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9_rQJGJkUA

Ghislain

Ghislain
06-29-2017, 01:54 PM
Just watched an amazing documentary film that so fits this thread. If you like graphic design you will love this.

The film starts with a caption which says, "This film will not make you happy" ;)

The Happy Film (https://kingmovies.to/film/the-happy-film.ofuz6/watching.html)

Ghislain

Edit: best played with an ad blocker installed,