PDA

View Full Version : That Oil Distillation Setup...



Goldlion973
08-28-2012, 01:23 PM
Hi... have been looking into this setup for oil distillation but as whiz kid as it seems have noticed a flaw which would otherwise make it unsuitable for P.Alchemy. Is strange that Crucible would make mention of it and discard its relevance:

Here it is, pretty much well known, considering their vacuum soxhlet option as well, not so much for the glassware but what it comes with, is a good deal considering:


http://www.heartmagic.com/EssentialStillRunning.jpg

Aint she pretty? ;)

But now....


http://crucible.org/images/GeraniumboilingwaterTN.jpg

As the steam rises the water falls collecting water soluble aspects of the herb with it.

Its a flaw, right? Still useful depending on what you use it for but if the product has been depleted of some of its components its not such a good method of distillation.

Opinions, if any?

Peace
GL

z0 K
08-28-2012, 03:33 PM
Hi... have been looking into this setup for oil distillation but as whiz kid as it seems have noticed a flaw which would otherwise make it unsuitable for P.Alchemy. Is strange that Crucible would make mention of it and discard its relevance:

Here it is, pretty much well known, considering their vacuum soxhlet option as well, not so much for the glassware but what it comes with, is a good deal considering:


http://www.heartmagic.com/EssentialStillRunning.jpg

Aint she pretty? ;)

But now....


http://crucible.org/images/GeraniumboilingwaterTN.jpg

As the steam rises the water falls collecting water soluble aspects of the herb with it.

Its a flaw, right? Still useful depending on what you use it for but if the product has been depleted of some of its components its not such a good method of distillation.

Opinions, if any?

Peace
GL

Hi GL,

That unit in the pics you posted is about the best steam distillation set up you can get for the money. Iíve been using one for several years. The glass blower that makes them is very accomplished at his art. The apparatus is designed for distilling the essential oil from plants and it does a very good job. Plus it can be used to concentrate your principles with the addition of some other components he makes.

The water soluble components of the herb that color the water in the steam reaction flask during the distillation process can be recovered by distilling the colored water. The water soluble matter will remain in the flask after the water is distilled off.

Just donít distill off the water in that narrow neck flask the unit comes with or youíll get a mess stuck to the bottom that you will not be able to remove without breaking the flask.

z0 K

Goldlion973
08-28-2012, 08:33 PM
Hmmmm... thanks for the advice, just seemed a bit off. Can tell that the glass blower who makes them is of a good sort, the price and what is offered is more than reasonable and his advice seems warm and sound.

Am thinking it is probably best if I were to use another abbreviation if there is another GL on the site, not sure what .lol. Perhaps GL3 or something... the soxhlet the apparatus can transform into, is it worth investing in the vacuum version or just the regular... considering what is in use, round bottom flask and so on it seems not that much is really needed. Also, if you have the vacuum version, how does the pump work for you? Would assume it wouldn't be of a high quality given the price.

(Sorry, am in the UK and would have to ship this if bought, hence the 'nerves')

Peace
GL3

pneumatician
08-28-2012, 09:41 PM
this is chem, alchemist don't use this grotesque setup. alchemist use a much more simple metod. :o

whitout doubt exist a lot of chem sites where you can find more acurate info in this type of task

z0 K
08-29-2012, 03:10 PM
this is chem, alchemist don't use this grotesque setup. alchemist use a much more simple metod. :o

whitout doubt exist a lot of chem sites where you can find more acurate info in this type of task


Sure, there are other ways to separate the mercury from the sulfur in plants. So what do you use to separate the plant mercury from the crude massa? What "simple" method do you believe the alchemists used? It seems you distinguish alchemy from chemistry in a somewhat pejorative way.

The alchemists invented steam distillation as well as chemistry. The first chemistry books were written by alchemists.

z0 K

z0 K
08-29-2012, 03:20 PM
Hmmmm... thanks for the advice, just seemed a bit off. Can tell that the glass blower who makes them is of a good sort, the price and what is offered is more than reasonable and his advice seems warm and sound.

Am thinking it is probably best if I were to use another abbreviation if there is another GL on the site, not sure what .lol. Perhaps GL3 or something... the soxhlet the apparatus can transform into, is it worth investing in the vacuum version or just the regular... considering what is in use, round bottom flask and so on it seems not that much is really needed. Also, if you have the vacuum version, how does the pump work for you? Would assume it wouldn't be of a high quality given the price.

(Sorry, am in the UK and would have to ship this if bought, hence the 'nerves')

Peace
GL3

Hi GL3,
Vacuum distillation set ups are very tricky to operate, and you need a very good and expensive vacuum pump to make it work. If you are good at mechanical stuff you can salvage a vacuum pump motor from an old refrigerator. You don't need a vacuum distillation system to accomplish the classic laboratory works in alchemy.

z0 K

Goldlion973
08-29-2012, 09:08 PM
Thanks... problem with me is that I tend toward extremes, in that if there's a, "better" way of working I end up being drawn in and stuck to it... as it has been mentioned that high temperatures are best avoided, I suddenly find it necessary to work along those lines in order to make "the best" and "most effective" product possible. Sucks. End up filling my mind with petty details, spent an hour at work today fussing over pipettes, seriously, automatic ones are 'the best' as they're quick to use and accurate, so theres me fussing over which one to waste my money on **rolls eyes**

D.Trout
08-30-2012, 12:49 PM
this is chem, alchemist don't use this grotesque setup. alchemist use a much more simple metod. :o

whitout doubt exist a lot of chem sites where you can find more acurate info in this type of task


Who was it that said "To study Alchemy is to study everything"?

I think the minute you start excluding what ISN'T Alchemy from what IS, (including the thread on Homonculi. Paracelsus discusses it, along with dozens of other Alchemical texts... Mind you, not the wisest of things to involve yourself in, but Alchemical practice none the less.)

There is of course, separating the pure from the dross at the core of everything, but each component has its own pure and its own dross. I think we have to do that with each new development we encounter: Evaluate it carefully, determine what is useful about it, and what will not assist us in, or be detrimental to, The Great Work, and then figure out a means of putting into praxis what we have discovered.

Excluding something altogether, because it's not "What the Alchemists of Old" is a rather Luddite approach.

It's hardly exploring if you stick solidly to the well-worn path.

Modern glass works fine. You're right. It's not what the old masters used. You're also right that they didn't NEED them. But no doubt they would have given their eye teeth for modern borsilicate glass.

-D

pneumatician
08-30-2012, 11:53 PM
I think the minute you start excluding what ISN'T Alchemy from what IS, (including the thread on Homonculi. Paracelsus discusses it, along with dozens of other Alchemical texts... Mind you, not the wisest of things to involve yourself in, but Alchemical practice none the less.)

well you can call "alchemy" the "homuncili" of OTO, I call it, for exemple "sexual astrology" :)
but, where you read a humunculi is a normal human like you or me? This technique of influencing human fetus is older than walking.


There is of course, separating the pure from the dross at the core of everything, but each component has its own pure and its own dross. I think we have to do that with each new development we encounter: Evaluate it carefully, determine what is useful about it, and what will not assist us in, or be detrimental to, The Great Work, and then figure out a means of putting into praxis what we have discovered.

for this you need to be inmortal and work 24h/day forever


Modern glass works fine. You're right. It's not what the old masters used. You're also right that they didn't NEED them. But no doubt they would have given their eye teeth for modern borsilicate glass.-D

A Oracle say somenthing like this: alchemist is who knows how to blow glass :)
I say alchemist don't use this grotesque setup and you aand only you end wuth the conclusion I say alchemist don't use glass ? modern or old glass...

this apparatus is like the pyramids constructed after the 3 of Giza, a degeneration, you can build a pyramid with mud bricks but are the same ? if the rain return over this type of pyramids in 100 or 200 years no more mud pyramids...
men fear time, time fears the (stone) pyramids...
:cool:

pneumatician
08-31-2012, 12:00 AM
Sure, there are other ways to separate the mercury from the sulfur in plants. So what do you use to separate the plant mercury from the crude massa? What "simple" method do you believe the alchemists used?

z0 K

perhaps glauber's works, philosophical furnaces, part 1 ????

A distillation of Vegetable Oyles, whereby a greater quantity is acquired, than by that common way by a vesica.

MarkostheGnostic
09-09-2012, 07:36 PM
I created an essential oil, steam distillation setup for a whole lot less money, but I've posted this before. I already had a 2000 ml boiling flask, (but I have more recently obtained a smaller one with a side neck for the admission of a tube with a fine point air inlet for vacuum distillation), but I digress. A chromatography reservoir (aludel) can be fitted onto the boiling flask, and a Liebig, or Allihn (Grahams are cool looking but hard to clean) condenser, and a separator funnel is not as sophisticated as an oil separator, but it works just fine. Even with the purchase of a heat mantle, cable, and Variac, the whole thing maybe approached $100 from eBay sources.

http://i47.tinypic.com/oivyc5.jpg

Goldlion973
09-09-2012, 10:35 PM
Wow... thanks for posting, was online window shopping when you did.... was concerned about using a thermometer adapter, notice that you're running it under vac, how do you get enough air flowing considering it ends with a seperatory funnel which would either be locked or be filled with water? Also notice that your glass dosen't seem standard, joints aren't graduated but thats by the by... any hint on where to get a 45/50 male - 24/40 female adapter? Can only seem to find 24/40 biomass flasks at the moment, can imagine the frustration trying to get herb out of it .lol.

Goldlion973
09-11-2012, 03:39 PM
Sorry about the above, had a reply typed out, even had a few jokes in it but the site timed out on me... tried to log back in but to no avail.

Anyway, in return... had been talking to a cool cat on ebay, noticed he was selling Biomass flasks but had recently run out, said he had more in stock, B grade... was only after the flask as I have the rest of the equipment already but he replied with:

Bada Boom (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221123330757?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch% 2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D221123330757%26_rdc %3D1)

Decent price, huh? Would go for it myself but there's no need, other than a chance at a 3L boiling flask... feel a tad guilty the guy put it up and I can't buy it... theres also a nifty oil separator available under his items list if you look.

Peace
GLIII

turtleman
03-30-2013, 07:04 PM
How is the extraction of water soluble parts of the plant a flaw its a benefit in my opinion this way you extract 2 of the plants aspects at once

zoas23
08-31-2015, 03:02 PM
I am investigating different setups myself...

I found this one:

The Antonacopoulus equipment... the "herbs chamber", let's call it like that, is somehow "inside" the boiling chamber.
http://s28.postimg.org/q2chl1ctp/Captura_de_pantalla_2015_08_31_a_las_12_14_40.png

I found this other one:
http://s27.postimg.org/u4lvhy7nn/11851050_10207666821736375_1923286457_n.gif
but even without the heater, which I don't need, the cost is... above the clouds.

I found this one... but it's just for simple distillation, so it won't do the trick:
http://s7.postimg.org/674wnkrbf/11913051_10207666815656223_1644544558_n.jpg

MY fourth option is this one:
http://s27.postimg.org/bhwlqdt1f/arrastre_vapor.jpg
This is quite affordable...

EDIT: I have decided for the first one... I'll have it in 20 days... I'll let you know the results just in case they are usefu for someone else who is deciding between different equipments. My choice was done with he help of a close friend who is a chemist who ONLY works with essential oils (that's his speciality... he makes "smells" for products, but only works with essential oils... so he knows quite well the subject).

Ghislain
09-04-2015, 06:13 PM
I have almost the same setup as your fourth option zoas33, but I was using it to produce nitric acid...a bit unsuccessfully I may add, but with a little tweaking I could use it as shown in you picture.

I look forward to your report :)

Ghislain

zoas23
09-04-2015, 06:37 PM
I have almost the same setup as your fourth option zoas33, but I was using it to produce nitric acid...a bit unsuccessfully I may add, but with a little tweaking I could use it as shown in you picture.

I look forward to your report :)

Ghislain

The person who blows the glass told me that probably he'll have it on monday. I will test it with Melissa, which is specially "unkind" for Essential Oils... if it works with Melissa, it should work with everything.

zoas23
09-30-2015, 10:03 AM
I have almost the same setup as your fourth option zoas33, but I was using it to produce nitric acid...a bit unsuccessfully I may add, but with a little tweaking I could use it as shown in you picture.

I look forward to your report :)

Ghislain



I bought the FIRST OPTION:

http://s28.postimg.org/q2chl1ctp/Captura_de_pantalla_2015_08_31_a_las_12_14_40.png

It is quite good, but I do NOT recommend it for essential oils.
If you want to make a steam distillation of anything that is liquid, this equipment should be your option #1 and it is FANTASTIC.

As for essential oils: to clean it is a NIGHTMARE, the "capsule of the herbs" is not as big as you may want... and it does the job, but if you have other options, I suggest not to invest in this equipment (on the other hand, it can be a VERY good equipment for animal and mineral alchemy... but for vegetables is not really the best option possible... it is possible to use it and it works fine, but other options are by far more practical).

So I end up buying ANOTHER equipment too:

http://s15.postimg.org/4k43z333f/12071355_10207904423436269_826804920_n.jpg

A local "glass blower" did it for me (it was not available in any shop)... I got it for a very good cost. Having used both, I'd say this second one is way better for vegetables and essential oils (easier to clean, a bigger flask for the vegetables and cheaper).

*The flash of the camera made the flasks look as if they have a weird shape, but they are normal round flasks (typical "balloon shaped flasks").

EDIT: the Option #1 was suggested to me by a close friend who is a chemist and works mostly with essential oils only, but he uses an "extra-large" version of this equipment for "industrial amounts" of essential oils.... something that nobody here probably needs. Of course, a 20 litters version is VERY different than a 2 litters version and the whole thing changes... but the 2 litters version, I don't suggest it.

Other than that, he suggested me to get this:

https://www.avogadro-lab-supply.com/item_images/OilSeparator1.jpg http://crucible.org/images/OilLayerTN.jpg

Instead of this:

http://www.bimarloga.com.ar/site/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/1329ac9077d73c1b3dd6755bbe28d826.gif

I think it's a good idea... the two of them work, but I trust his 20 years of experience with essential oils... and in this case the "size" (he uses "industrial size" equipments) does not make a difference.
And the first option does NOT need a vacuum pump at all (indeed, it would not make sense to use it with a vacuum pump, since it's not a device that allows a "closed distillation").

zoas23
10-01-2015, 04:43 AM
Who was it that said "To study Alchemy is to study everything"?

(...)

There is of course, separating the pure from the dross at the core of everything, but each component has its own pure and its own dross. I think we have to do that with each new development we encounter: Evaluate it carefully, determine what is useful about it, and what will not assist us in, or be detrimental to, The Great Work, and then figure out a means of putting into praxis what we have discovered.

Excluding something altogether, because it's not "What the Alchemists of Old" is a rather Luddite approach.

It's hardly exploring if you stick solidly to the well-worn path.

Modern glass works fine. You're right. It's not what the old masters used. You're also right that they didn't NEED them. But no doubt they would have given their eye teeth for modern borsilicate glass.

This is off topic, but I love your post.

It reminds me of a quote of an article I like a lot: "In any case, tradition is itself discontinuous; individuals who wish to 'return' to tradition simultaneously break with the traditions they've inherited." ( https://www.stewarthomesociety.org/reaction/re02.htm )

The "old" alchemists were a lot of things and one of them was, for sure, inventors.
I do not remember a lot of "old" alchemists being "nostalgic" about the past, but I do remember a lot of them being utopians and dreaming about the future.

The ideal of "going back in time" to "return" to a "tradition" as if we were performers of a medieval recreation show that uses everything "as it was during the medieval times" was something that the old alchemists never had in mind.

Indeed, if THEY could travel in time and come to OUR times and they saw one of us trying to emulate their ancient technology, they would probably ask: "what the fuck are you doing?".

Before the XVII Century there were no thermometers... when the thermometers were invented in the XVII Century, no alchemist wrote a single word against the use of thermometers because they were not "traditional".

The ideal of "going back in time" and avoid everything that is new was, even for the old alchemists, something that was certainly NOT part of their Tradition.

zoas23
10-22-2015, 12:28 AM
Instead of creating a new thread, I'll ask the question here, since it's quite related:

How do you illuminate your lab when working with essential oils extraction?

I know the light and the essential oils do not like each other, but working completely in the dark isn't possible either... and it would be cool to have a 100% luted equipment, but most of us do not have it.

some friends of mine use a "red light"... but I do not know if it makes sense or if they simply "believe" that it's better, but it's the same thing.