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Ezalor
09-09-2012, 02:33 PM
This thread was split from http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2828-Iboga-expedition&p=24398#post24398
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Well, depends on how you define "drug". Caffeine, alcohol and nicotine are drugs too, in many sense (addiction, etc.) and I see nothing bad in them, as long as they are consumed in such a way that you don't develop addiction or withdrawal symptoms. For example, I drink coffee sometimes, but when someone feels like a zombie every day until the morning coffee, now, that is no good.

So well, Ayahuasca is hallucinogenic, right? My knowledge is that Iboga also (correct me if I'm wrong). I had a slight interest in the former for a while, and it is still tempting, but generally my opinion is that using hallucinogenics to achieve anything spiritual is a mistake and wrong approach for the simple reason, that if you can't achieve something without them, then you are not ready for it. And forcing out an experience you are not ready for it is much more a drawback than aid on the spiritual path. In addition, Dubuis explains pretty well how so called psychedelics ruin your chakras, and why the visions they induce are false and distorted, and I must pretty much agree with him, as well as with his statement that the only way is to achieve true, undistorted visions with psychedelics is death my overdose.

Well, I personally don't say you can't spiritually develop using such substances, but rather I say you can develop much more without them, even if it seems slower. For me they can be described in AD&D style as "5 step forward, then 2d6 backwards". In theory you can gradually develop through it, but in fact, chances of that are pretty low.

And for the locals, well: they did born THERE for a reason. Since we weren't born in an Ayahuasca or Iboga centered culture, it is most likely because for us, that isn't the way to go.


Just my personal opinion, as always. Your decisions are yours. ;)

Awani
09-09-2012, 02:58 PM
I agree with you. It is all drugs. Just wanted to see how you meant the word.

You say you had an interest in Ayahuasca and that it is still tempting so then I presume you have not had an Ayahuasca initiation? If that is the case then it is hard for me to take your opinion seriously. On the other hand if you hold the same position after you have had an initiation then I will gladly accept it. :)

Also Dubuis is talking about psychedelics? Which ones? LSD perhaps? Or is he just throwing out opinions without personal experience? An Ayahuasca/Iboga (and even Magic Mushrooms if done properly) is not only about the 'drug' itself, but the setting, the intention and who ever is feeding you the substance. Ayahuasca is only one of many substances used by the Shamans in the Amazon, and without some of the others quite meaningless in my opinion. It is a full experience, not a partial one. I can go visit the Shamans in the Amazon and not drink Ayahuasca and still advance spiritually. The Shamans are more important than the drug! I live in Amsterdam, I can drink Ayahuasca whenever I want, yet I have only had it in Peru.

Regarding your 'locals' comment does that mean you can't enjoy pasta fully because you are not born in Italy? Not likely. Besides psychedelics grow naturally all over the world, and there are entheogenic Shamanic practices all over the world as well. Although in many places it has been destroyed and suppressed by the Patriarchal Ruling Elite.* That it belongs to locals can be true, but there are psychedelics locally where I am now, here in Europe... and there are Shamans as well (also local). So I am afraid it is incorrect. The difference, because there is a major difference, is that in Gabon and in the Amazon the Patriarchal Ruling Elite has failed to destroy these practices, although they are trying.

From my own experience, and speaking with others who have had similar experiences, I can honestly say that they work. They work fast, without bullshit, without effort. This sometimes annoys people who have spent ten years meditating having someone reach the same spiritual calm after 6 hours. The chances are quite high (excuse the pun) that you will develop spiritually with these substances if done correctly.

If the visions are false, well this could also be discussed at length. Something I can gladly do if there is an interest. But my short answer is NO they are not false, imo.

I think the human race, all of it, comes from a Spiritual Plant origin. In modern times the masses have left the path, I am just back on it.

Finally I do not agree about the not ready part in your post, and I can speak only for myself. It took many years and a lot of personal courage to go through with my initiation. I could have been initiated many many years before I actually was, reason I didn't was because the time was not right. I was not ready. So this is, from my own perspective, incorrect.

Let me just also add that there is also the theory that one does not need to be ready. I have a t-shirt that says Just do it!, because the Plants told me that you do not need to be ready. So I wasted a lot of time thinking I was not ready, but that is another story.

Oh and I loath the New Age LSD hippie morons that roam this planet, so please don't confuse me with one of these people. LOL!

:cool:

* Why would the Patriarchal Ruling Elite** suppress psychedelics/entheogens and Shamanic practices? Because a population that embrace these practices would not be consumers and war mongering morons. There would be no profit to be made. I am certain of this theory. :)

** It should be Parental Ruling Elite.

Andro
09-09-2012, 03:32 PM
Just as a quick reply to the above exchanges, I'll quote/paraphrase dev from one of our private conversations:

"It's not as much about WHAT you do, as it is about HOW you do it." (I would also add WHY to the HOW, but that's me :))

As for 'being ready'... well, when you do something - then it means you were ready for it, regardless of the consequences, (which may range from mild to extreme, in many possible directions of the experiential spectrum).

The very concept of 'being ready', when used in the sense of maturity/preparation/positive outcome/etc, implies some sort of value judgement and expectational spin on the experience.

Shamans have a saying: "Expect nothing, receive everything". And what one receives may not necessarily be what one would LIKE to receive - nevertheless, it was time and it is what it is, WHEN it is.

All these plants are not on this planet by chance. Neither is the air we breathe, for that matter.

Still, except maybe for air (in most cases :)), not everything is for everyone.

I am personally NOT into entheogens, and I'm not defending and preference in particular.

What I DO defend, is Diversity, diversity of needs and of Paths to Initiation.


Patriarchal Ruling Elite

Parental! I thought we had bottom-lined this 'dispute' before :) :) :)

Awani
09-09-2012, 03:36 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. My secretary is on holy day! LOL!

Also I want to add I am not saying the psychedelic path is the only path, I am just defending it and at the same time I am not attacking the non-psychedelic path. I recommend, not enforce. I have tried both so personally I have been able to make a clear choice. It is easy to judge something from the outside, but the view is always different from the inside (even if the conclusion is the same).

Besides I can't OBE at will at the moment, so I need some sort of transportation. He he.

:cool:

Ezalor
09-09-2012, 07:12 PM
I presume you have not had an Ayahuasca initiation?
No, but for a while was considering it. Why I was really interested in that, and that substance alone, and why I said it's still tempting is because according to what I've read, the main (or one of the main) hallucinogenic substance(s) in it is the same as one that is naturally synthesized by the brain during sleeping, and according to research is in some way connected with dreaming. This led me to the conclusion that with it might be possible to achieve "dreaming awake", that is, combining all the freedom and possibilities of dreaming with the awake consciousness.

Why it is tempting is that when I was a small kid, dreaming was my primary, and pretty direct and clear connection to the spirit world. I just closed my eyes and I was instantly in the nonphysical realm, and still fully conscious. When I entered preschool, I already used this to travel to other worlds, meet different spirits and much more. However, during the early teenage, this ability of mine have been locked - and since that, I miss it very badly, it is like losing a limb... So I would probably willing to do pretty much to experience that or something similar again. So for a while I considered I should go to South America, find a shaman who is willing to guide me, and doing the whole thing in the proper way, as I believe that without the complete initiation, Ayahuasca is nothing but a drug.

HOWEVER, I know it is very clearly, that my ability was locked for a very good reason: I awakened to some abilities too early, and before I could really use them the way they are intended to be used, I have to prepare. I know enough to see that things are in the right track, and when the learning cycle we saw necessary is complete, it will be unlocked again (many things that have been locked as well have been unlocked since that). So trying to bypass that would be stupid and unnecessary for me.

Also, a hallucinogenic experience will never even come close to the clarity of the original experience I would try to replace with it. It is not what I really seek.

So all in all, I don't say I will never go through such an initiation, or that I will never use hallucinogenics, but I can say for pretty sure, that if I ever DO, then it will be done not with the intent of what I described above, and will be because I received a sign that for some reason, it is necessary to do it. But it is still a brute force way, with quite a price, so resorting to that would probably be a serious case.


not only about the 'drug' itself, but the setting, the intention and who ever is feeding you the substance.
Of course, that's what I mentioned as well above. It is of course very different, and I do not doubt its spiritual relevance and power, but still don't consider it a very good approach. And it isn't just Dubuis, I always thought it so, and I know other, magickally and spiritually advanced persons who hold the same belief about the use of hallucinogenics.


The Shamans are more important than the drug!
Then why the shaman isn't enough? :P


does that mean you can't enjoy pasta fully because you are not born in Italy?
No, but if you REALLY needed to have Italian pasta as an important element in your life, you would have been born Italian most likely. ;)

And come on, a psychedelic substance and pasta cannot be compared. They are seriously different calibers.


Besides psychedelics grow naturally all over the world, and there are entheogenic Shamanic practices all over the world as well. [...] there are psychedelics locally where I am now, here in Europe... and there are Shamans as well (also local).
[..]
The difference, because there is a major difference, is that in Gabon and in the Amazon the Patriarchal Ruling Elite has failed to destroy these practices, although they are trying.
Alright. And this is why I said, that if it would be so important for you to receive this experience, you would probably (but not necessarily of course) have been born there.



They work fast, without bullshit, without effort.
Now. This is the very point. So, answer me only this single question:
Do you think any development can be achieved without effort?

And if you would say the effort in it is that you have to travel there and organize it all, do the ritual, etc. well... then all your development comes from these efforts, and not from the drug. So then is the drug really necessary? Is it needed at all?


This sometimes annoys people who have spent ten years meditating having someone reach the same spiritual calm after 6 hours.
In Buddhism, there are three paths. The most common path takes many, many lives to reach the goal, moksha. With the Vajrayana path however, a single life is enough. But it doesn't mean at all that it requires less effort. Also not everyone can walk that path.


I didn't was because the time was not right. I was not ready.
Don't forget Life doesn't deny us the option to chose incorrectly.


Let me just also add that there is also the theory that one does not need to be ready. I have a t-shirt that says Just do it!
Which is my motto as well. But I believe that WHEN you CAN just do it, you are already ready. But with the psychedelics, it seems to me that one tries to shortcut to something they could achieve through learning as well. It is like trying to get a PhD without attending a university.


I wasted a lot of time thinking I was not ready
Yes, that is indeed a common trap. I've fallen for it as well quite a few times. But sometimes you areally are not ready, and there is a great difference between thinking, and KNOWNING that you are not ready.


Oh and I loath the New Age LSD hippie morons that roam this planet, so please don't confuse me with one of these people. LOL!
Don't worry, I totally understand your approach. ;) Actually, if we were talking few years ago I would have probably agreed with you in everything. ;) But you said you were thinking like me, but then you changed your mind. Well... with me, it's the other way around. :P

So let's sum my opinion up as this:

I believe that while hallucinogenics may be used for good, but are very dangerous (not physically, but spiritually) and come at a price, and with some very rare exceptions, there is always a better way to achieve the same goal.

With this said, I don't say it's clearly a bad idea, but I think it isn't the best either. ;) Still, I respect your opinion and choice, and by no means say you shouldn't do it if that is your free will.

But I still think, even if you are right and this is really what you need, chances that anyone else not born there also needs it are extremely low, and thus I wouldn't recommend it to others. If it really is what they need, they will find it without you recommending it anyway.

-------------------------------


Shamans have a saying: "Expect nothing, receive everything". And what one receives may not necessarily be what one would LIKE to receive
I completely agree with that.

nevertheless, it was time and it is what it is, WHEN it is.
But then, if you didn't receive what you have LIKED, then maybe you weren't ready for it. And if you DO, it still doesn't mean it was what you NEEDED. because with free will, you have the right to chose wrong. If you ask for something that is not what you truly need, and you don't notice the signs that are warning you, then you will receive it indeed at some point, if you want it enough, even if it harms you.

Actually, most of the shit in the ordinary person's life is there because they were asking for it, even if they didn't realize that. ;)

Ezalor
09-09-2012, 07:15 PM
They work fast, without bullshit, without effort.
This is the real danger of psychedelics in general. They tempt with an easy, effortless path and many see a shortcut in it instead of trying to learn.

Ghislain
09-10-2012, 02:21 AM
Actually, most of the shit in the ordinary person's life is there because they were asking for it, even if they didn't realize that.

I have to agree with that Ezalor...people who use divination to get answers to questions tend not to get the
answer to the question they asked, but still get the answer they needed if they could just see it.

You can never make a wrong choice...you just make a choice and the outcome is what happens.

It's like the butterfly effect...how can there be a wrong choice when you can't say the outcome of a choice
that isn't made?

Some people will spend many years trying to make a right choice just to be disappointed by the outcome
when, in the same time, they could have made a million choices that they would have been happy with.

Do you drive a car or have you flown anywhere? You could just walk, but driving gets you there quicker.

I have to say I have thought along the lines of what you have said, but its too late to worry about it now and
I've seen things I would not have yet encountered had I not gone down the path I did - IMHO.

And Ayahuasca is by no means an easy path...you have to taste it :(


Ghislain

Awani
09-10-2012, 02:15 PM
First I can't speak about meditating yourself to an altered state (or whatever tech you use), as I have no experience with it. I can only fully debate about what I have myself experienced. So I can only speak for/against psychedelics really, not for/against anything else. And neither can really anyone else. Direct experience is the key to understanding anything, IMO.

In the Amazon Ayahuasca is called Medicine, and the Shaman is a nurse. A nurse can help you heal, but can do even more work if she has some medicine at her disposal. So no in my opinion the Shaman isn't enough, but medicine without a nurse is even worse. Saying that once initiated you don't need the Ayahuasca anymore, then the Shaman is enough I think. I listen to them regularly. These days esoteric knowledge can be downloaded into an mp3 (the Shamans sing/evoke vibrations...). I embrace high-tech combined with ancient-tech, it's the only way forward.

As for the locality issue I disagree. Any culture/tradition is not exclusive to the people local to it. That is a narrow outlook. I cannot at this time agree to this. It goes against all my findings and experiences. The server of this forum is in the US, so what can you get from it being in Hungary?

Anyway enough with silly allegories. :)


This is the real danger of psychedelics in general. They tempt with an easy, effortless path and many see a shortcut in it instead of trying to learn.

There is a lot of effort of course, don't get me wrong. The Ayahuasca doesn't stop after the ceremony, it has continued its effects over the last two years. It is hard work. When I say without effort I meant I have not been sitting meditating for days on end without result. It happens right away. Cut to the chase, as the phrase goes. That is all I meant speaking about effort.

So I disagree, they are NOT easy. In fact if you have been an asshole all your life Ayahuasca will take you on an extremely difficult journey through what seems to be unbearable pain and heartache. But it doesn't require any skills beforehand. I only requires that you partake of the brew, and if you play your cards right you'll get out on top on the other side (no pun intended).


Do you think any development can be achieved without effort?

No, see above.

Salut (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1298-Ayahuasca-Report).

:cool:

Awani
09-10-2012, 02:32 PM
Actually, most of the shit in the ordinary person's life is there because they were asking for it, even if they didn't realize that. ;)

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1559-Your-fault%21

:cool:

Ezalor
09-10-2012, 07:59 PM
But it doesn't require any skills beforehand. I only requires that you partake of the brewOnce I was watchi9ng a documentary about these shamans. I can't tell how accurate it was, but there was a young man who wanted to be a shaman, and he said he prepares for it since many years, learning from the old shaman, and he still didn't use the Ayahuasca even once, because he is still not ready for it until the old shaman decides so.

Alright, you don't want to be a native shaman (I guess) but still, if that was accurate, it sounds strange that a local has to prepare for it for years, and a foreigner just goes there and takes it.


Do you drive a car or have you flown anywhere? You could just walk, but driving gets you there quicker.When I went to West-Tibet, I could have taken a flight from Delhi directly to Leh. Would have been there in a few hours.

But instead, I rode a bus for a whole day to get to a small village in the jungle. There I met a local shaman, a yogi, made two great friends, met a famous spiritual artist from Srí Lanka, sat on a rocl below the bottom of a 40+ meters tall waterfall, and had a bath in a thousand years old sacred sulphuric hot bath inside a temple. Then "accidentally" bumped into seven guys who were just planning to trek through the mountains so I joined up with them. We had a one and half day long jeep ride, through the most dangerous road in the World at the Rothang la (translates as "pass of piles of dead corpses"), witnessing an accident where we ended up helping, and a glacier as it demolished the road in front of us and had to wait until some bulldozers built a new road. I saw amazingly beautiful huge mountains and cliffs, lot of jungle, and at least a hundred waterfalls. And the whole time I had to concentrate in keeping up a breathing exercise to avoid fainting and collapsing from the sudden ascent to 4000 meters. Then we walked through the mountains for seven days, and through a pass of 5100 meters. I constantly had to keep up heavy breathing as if I stopped for just a moment the world started to go black. Every evening I fell down shivering in my cheap tend designed for weekending, tortured by pain all around in my body, a very high fewer, and a bad diarrhea. I saw self-sustainable school, built from local materials that is entirely heated up during the extremely cold winters using nothing but direct sunlight coming through the windows. I visited a huge monastery built into a giant cave inside a vertical cliff, hanging above a river, with a stupa containing some ashes of Buddha, and a great tree (the ONLY tree of the area), growing on top of the mountain, directly above the stupa. At the last day, I could barely walk, and with only the speed if an old man, and was unable to climb onto the back of the "share taxi" without help. I've been shaken around for hours in the company of 5-6 man, some kids, a monk, three goats and some barley sacks, in fewer and pain until we finally arrived to Padum.
Then I spent about two weeks with volunteer work. I visited a thousand years old hidden stupa with original wall paintings. I rode a truck with around 40(!!!) local man and woman on it, while the wemen sang local folk songs in ladakhi, on my way to the Gustor festival in Karsha where the monks performed the sacred Tibetan mask dance. We were invited for tea by the head lama of Karsha but had no time. I was however guest for tea at the King of Padum and the King of Zangla. During the volunteer work I worked mostly in a six hundred years old palace, where Csoma Sándor de Kőrös, the creator of the first Tibetan-English dictionary lived two hundred years ago, and every day I could sit and meditate in the sanctum with the 4-600 years old sacred statues, thangkas and other relics, with things all around me that in Europe one can only see in museums, under glass and heavy guard, but here I could have touched them if I wanted. I also saw a Tibetan library, with books ranging from few to many hundred years old. In the palace I discovered and recovered an old playing board carved into stone (a Tibetan game, similar to chess) and adorned with a pentagram.
Then I lived for two days on the streets of Padum, with no money left and no bankomat in a few hundreds of kilometers range, saving my last Rupias for the bus that takes me to Leh. But finally I ended up hitchhiking a truck, on the back of it for the first hundred kilometer or so. I saw one of the biggest glaciers of the World. We had a 23 hours continuous trick ride on crazy serpentine roads through the Himalaya, when I finally arrived to Leh, where I bumped into some other volunteers and together we wenr ri visit the most interesting monasteries of the area. We sat at a morning puja (ritual). We saw a museum of invaluable old Buddhist relics. I saw three-story high Buddha statues, stupas covered in thick plates of silver and gold and adorned with many precious stones. I saw beautiful, many hundred years old wall paintings, and painted wood carvings, and many other relics.

So... let's call this my initiation. And you know what would have I got if I take the shortcut and fly to Leh? Well... a handful of souvenirs, probably. So of course, you can always take the faster path. But usually it doesn't worth it. ;)

Awani
09-10-2012, 08:09 PM
I can't tell how accurate it was, but there was a young man who wanted to be a shaman, and he said he prepares for it since many years, learning from the old shaman, and he still didn't use the Ayahuasca even once, because he is still not ready for it until the old shaman decides so.

It is not correct (based on my experience with the Shipibo). Anyone can drink but not everyone can be a Shaman. True I don't want to be a native Shaman but I might go native.

Either you do it or you don't, but if you ever do I would love to hear your opinions after the fact.

The car allegory doesn't work with this subject. I was on a life long path till I was initiated by the Shipibo. The flight to Peru was the final step.

:cool:

Ghislain
09-10-2012, 09:12 PM
Ezalor

The Shaman we are talking of in Peru do what was explained to us as dieting a tree.

They make a tincture from the bark of a particular tree of which I cannot recall the name. They drink this
tincture and live in solitude within the jungle on a very sparce diet and this tree tincture meditating. They
must not make eye contact with another person during this period except their shaman teacher who visits
them now and then. After a while the spirit of the tree comes to them and teaches them the medicine of the
jungle. I was told that on average this takes about a year of solitude.

I have to say I don't think I could accomplish this and that these people must have great dedication. It is
because of their great dedication that they can guide others.

On the point of your story I am sure that most of us here could recount similar stories. This does not stop
one from making a quick trip. I am sure that not all of your journeys have been the way you explained in
your post. The quick trip does not stop you taking the slow route later.

Before going to Iquitos in Peru I went first to Cuzco and walked the Inca trail it took four days and I found
it facinating if not sometimes grueling...one could just get a train straight to Machu Picchu if you only
wanted to see the old Inca village and I'm sure one would really enjoy that too, perhaps this would instil a
desire to see more.

IMO there is no right or wrong way, there is only the way you chose.

If someday you do chose to experience a Shamanic medicine (psychedelic) be sure to do it with someone
who understands the meaning of set and setting.

Ghislain

Awani
09-10-2012, 09:52 PM
If someday you do chose to experience a Shamanic medicine (psychedelic) be sure to do it with someone
who understands the meaning of set and setting.

Yes, just like Star Wars there are Sith-Shamans and Jedi-Shamans.

:cool:

Ezalor
09-16-2012, 08:22 PM
Yes, just like Star Wars there are Sith-Shamans and Jedi-Shamans.
ROFL! :D

Anyway, we will see. Again, I don't say I never will do that, but I do not want or plan. So right now I think that it can only happen if I'm clearly "told" by the spirit world that I have to do that.

But at least I hope you agree in that psychedelics and alchemy are two very different path (even if the psychedelics can be interpreted alchemically), and if you decide to do both, you should still treat them as separate, and not wash them into each other. So I would say that psychedelics has no more to do with alchemy than any other non-alchemical path. I say this because I see that many - not you - starts to deal with alchemy thinking that psychedelics naturally belongs to alchemy, which is a misconception. Like Dubuis mentioned many people visiting his courses the first time thought it will be about making psychedelic extracts and were surprised when Dubuis told them that he does not do that.

Regarding the documentary, I don't recall which tribe it was, but they instead of brewing a drink, used the plant in a form of a green powder sucked up into the two nostrils simultaneously, using two bamboo sticks tied together. According to the commentary, it was the same plant they used, but again, don't know if that is correct.

Bel Matina
09-16-2012, 08:52 PM
While I think it's valid and important to recognize that just because it's psychedelic doesn't make it alchemy, I think it's as dangerous not to recognize that just because it's psychedelic doesn't make it not alchemy. In fact, psychoactive agents have a long history in our tradition. Though the best attested prior to the last century is of course alcohol, Evola, for example, cautions against improper use of "Corrosive Waters", which he explicitly identifies as a term for psychoactive agents, simultaneously recognizing that they have a place in the art and that if used for their own sake (like any other element of our work) they can be destructive to the art itself. The issue, I think, is a question of control - it can be difficult, even with careful research, to predict the depth and pace of the separation provoked by such solvents. I don't know that there's any element of our art that can't be said of, though, and so in the end I think it must be left to the judgement of the individual artist - you measure your own dosages, and if you become entranced by the peacock's tail and fail to see the dawn let no one tell you there wasn't some great calcification you needed that long night to digest. And my condolences on lost friends and loved ones.

As for all the talk of shamanism, I think it falls rather under our tradition's native syncretism than any conflation or bastardization. In particular when using any of these corrosive solvents it's important to make careful study of how they've been used in the past, even if the aims and methods of those who've used them are different from our own. Most of the psychoactives discussed are used in various initiatory contexts, and since similar concerns have a deep history in our tradition it's frequently easy to find parallels.

Awani
09-17-2012, 10:46 AM
Regarding the documentary, I don't recall which tribe it was, but they instead of brewing a drink, used the plant in a form of a green powder sucked up into the two nostrils simultaneously, using two bamboo sticks tied together. According to the commentary, it was the same plant they used, but again, don't know if that is correct.

It is Ayahuasca, a practice common in the Amazon of Brazil I think... perhaps easier to ingest as the brew tastes awful. LOL!


While I think it's valid and important to recognize that just because it's psychedelic doesn't make it alchemy, I think it's as dangerous not to recognize that just because it's psychedelic doesn't make it not alchemy.


But at least I hope you agree in that psychedelics and alchemy are two very different path (even if the psychedelics can be interpreted alchemically), and if you decide to do both, you should still treat them as separate, and not wash them into each other.

I do not agree at all. It all depends on how you define alchemy. For me it is a spiritual path, it is about transforming the self into gold and moving up to a higher plane of existence and awareness. Serious shamanic and psychedelic practice is the only thing so far in my research that has been able to do this.

No one can claim what alchemy is. I agree that psychedelics is not lab-alchemy... but it is highly alchemical. In fact the alchemical processes are visible to the naked eye. The coagulation, the separation, can all be felt physically. To be on a serious shamanic and psychedelic path is to be on an alchemical journey for sure. I have no doubt. I had this feeling before I even was on it, and now when I have walked it I know for sure that it is so. Speaking from my own direct experiences of course.

:cool:

Andro
09-17-2012, 12:07 PM
Alchemy has been very strictly defined for hundreds if not thousands of years. I believe the 'classical' definitions have always remained pretty much the same.

Here's one example of a rather strict approach to defining Alchemy (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?103-Practical-Alchemy-an-introduction&p=173#post173), by one forum member:


I have somewhat a more limited definition of practical Alchemy.

I would state the objectives are as finding:

1. Aurum potabile. The "cure all" medicine which according to Fulcanelli as 'not having one atom of gold'.

2. The Carbuncule. The mystical glowing gem of the Ancients.

3. Stone of Transmutation. There may be more than one definition to this. It could be defined as the Stone which transmutes lead (Pb) or some other base metal into Gold (Au). Or perhaps this involves the transmutation of the Soul and the physical appearance of transmutation is secondary.

I also place limitations as what substance(s) to work on.

"Hence if you know our Art, extract our gold from our Mercury (this is the shorter way), and thus perform the whole operation with one substance (viz., Mercury); if you can do this, you will have attained to the perfection of philosophy. In this method, there is no superfluous trouble: the whole work, from beginning to end, is based upon one broad foundation -- whereas if you take common gold, you must operate on two substances, and both will have to be purified by an elaborate process." - Open Entrance, Philalethes.

I then place anything that doesn't fall into the above as particulars, examples, discoveries, or applications.

Jerry

My personal opinion is that in this Age of DE-mystification and DE-centralization, we can embrace a wider perspective in the ways we define Alchemy.

To me, Alchemy is about the Universal Spirit (dwelling in all Matter, as well as in what is not [yet] Matter), and the harnessing of this Universal Spirit in a PRACTICAL way, in the realm of physical matter, by WHATEVER means, to achieve transformation/transmutation/evolution/etc, of both matter and consciousness... Nature does it all the time, and can not be bothered with human-coined definitions :)

Some paths to harnessing this Universal Spirit are more 'purist' than others, agreed, but this does not invalidate other paths.

So is Psychedelics a 'valid' path? Does it harness the Spirit in/with the help of matter to achieve transformational effects?

I would say it's a valid path, and, just like all paths, not for everyone. Maybe it's not 'Alchemical' according to the 'classical' definitions, and maybe it's not the MOST 'purist' approach. But is it 'valid'? Absolutely.

I know we have all sorts of different categories and subsections at this forum (for example), but in theory we might as well have one single long thread called 'Alchemy', because no matter from which angle, I believe we are attempting to approach the same 'destination' (if there were such a thing :)). The subdivisions are only meant to make navigation/orientation easier, for Like to find Like, and for celebrating the Diversity of approaches towards what I personally believe is ultimately the same 'goal'.

PS: I'm writing all this as a non-user of psychedelics, but as a 'ferocious' advocate of Diversity :)

Awani
09-17-2012, 12:38 PM
Well put. Classical Alchemy is a different matter indeed. And I like your description that the different sections of this forums if for navigational purposes more than anything else.

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
09-17-2012, 01:02 PM
This is the real danger of psychedelics in general. They tempt with an easy, effortless path and many see a shortcut in it instead of trying to learn.


There is nothing "easy" about psychedelics. I am a 40+ year veteran psychedelicist. They have greatly facilitated my personal development on Physical, Psychic, and Pneumatic levels. They put one through a wringer, threaten to Dissolve one into the Unconscious permanently, but enduring psychosis is fairly rare fortunately. The use of psychedelics has had far-reaching effects on my life (which I discussed with Dr. Albert Hofmannduring a brief mail correspondence in the 1980s).

I was a young scientist even at age 10, and my chemistry hobby led me to the imbibing of chemicals which changed my academic path from medicine to philosophy, theology, and psychology. In the course of pursuing all three degrees, I encountered Jung's work on alchemy, which connected to my childhood exposure via chemistry. For almost 3 decades, the psychospiritual aspects of alchemy influenced my psychotherapeutic work, and then just a few years ago, I began to enjoin the physical aspect via Spagyrics. But, alchemy, Jung, and the 10 years I spent in 3 universities was fueled by my desire, first to understand the range of Unconscious to Superconscious states that I both plumbed and soared in through the use of psychedelics, and then to manifest them in my being. The Philosopher's Stone, The Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart, the Diamond Body, for me, is the adamantine consciousness of Eternal Life, Realized (Coagulated). I am now looking for someone to help me re-format my book covering my life of esoteric exploration and experiences for publication.

http://i45.tinypic.com/258cewh.jpg

MarkostheGnostic
09-17-2012, 01:14 PM
While I think it's valid and important to recognize that just because it's psychedelic doesn't make it alchemy, I think it's as dangerous not to recognize that just because it's psychedelic doesn't make it not alchemy. In fact, psychoactive agents have a long history in our tradition. Though the best attested prior to the last century is of course alcohol, Evola, for example, cautions against improper use of "Corrosive Waters", which he explicitly identifies as a term for psychoactive agents, simultaneously recognizing that they have a place in the art and that if used for their own sake (like any other element of our work) they can be destructive to the art itself. The issue, I think, is a question of control - it can be difficult, even with careful research, to predict the depth and pace of the separation provoked by such solvents. I don't know that there's any element of our art that can't be said of, though, and so in the end I think it must be left to the judgement of the individual artist - you measure your own dosages, and if you become entranced by the peacock's tail and fail to see the dawn let no one tell you there wasn't some great calcification you needed that long night to digest. And my condolences on lost friends and loved ones.

As for all the talk of shamanism, I think it falls rather under our tradition's native syncretism than any conflation or bastardization. In particular when using any of these corrosive solvents it's important to make careful study of how they've been used in the past, even if the aims and methods of those who've used them are different from our own. Most of the psychoactives discussed are used in various initiatory contexts, and since similar concerns have a deep history in our tradition it's frequently easy to find parallels.

I rather agree with you! :) And so do others: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16862400#16862400

Andro
09-17-2012, 09:19 PM
An addendum to my post above (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?3125-Is-psychedelics-a-valid-path&p=24645#post24645):

Regarding the discussion about Psychedelics and Alchemy: I have found that having a narrow vision about anything never got me anywhere.

I don't do Psychedelics, but I definitely see it as a sort of Alchemical Path to transformation/evolution/purification. Doesn't work for everybody, either.

I know people who do this and were dramatically and positively changed and transformed by the experiences, as well as I know others who had no 'results'.

In many cases, those who had no 'results' were the ones who approached it in a more 'recreational' mind-state, rather than in a more initiatory mode.
Still, it also happened that 'non-spiritual' (but curious) people looking for an adventure or a different 'high', had strong initiatory experiences, and vise-versa.

In the broadest sense I can come up with, Alchemy is harnessing Spirit to act on Matter as a catalyst for transformation/evolution.

So, in this sense, many things are actually alchemical in nature.

I've had long talks with friends about how aspiring Alchemists often refuse to look outside the 'source material' (canonical writings by alchemical authors) and completely neglect the magic that happens all around us, all the time. We talked about often finding more openly revealed alchemical 'secrets' in nature, art, movies, books, myths and fairy tales - sometimes more than we can find in the 'canonical source material' and in the 'rare manuscripts'. And if not 'more', then definitely complementary.

In short, Alchemy is EVERYWHERE if the eyes are open enough to see it. IMO.

solomon levi
09-18-2012, 01:53 AM
Shamans have a saying: "Expect nothing, receive everything".

Wow! This just changed my energy field from vertical torus to emphasis on the
horizontal heart chakra torus/lotus. It feels very nice.

solomon levi
09-18-2012, 02:29 AM
In regards to the conversation between Dev and Ezalor, I perceive there are different types of people
who are suitable to different paths. For example, it may seem that meditation is more natural than
drugs, but more natural for whom? Natural can be relative. I imagine so many paths exist for so many
people.

solomon levi
09-18-2012, 02:59 AM
Alchemy has been very strictly defined for hundreds if not thousands of years. I believe the 'classical' definitions have always remained pretty much the same.

Here's one example of a rather strict approach to defining Alchemy (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?103-Practical-Alchemy-an-introduction&p=173#post173), by one forum member:



My personal opinion is that in this Age of DE-mystification and DE-centralization, we can embrace a wider perspective in the ways we define Alchemy.

To me, Alchemy is about the Universal Spirit (dwelling in all Matter, as well as in what is not [yet] Matter), and the harnessing of this Universal Spirit in a PRACTICAL way, in the realm of physical matter, by WHATEVER means, to achieve transformation/transmutation/evolution/etc, of both matter and consciousness... Nature does it all the time, and can not be bothered with human-coined definitions :)

Some paths to harnessing this Universal Spirit are more 'purist' than others, agreed, but this does not invalidate other paths.

So is Psychedelics a 'valid' path? Does it harness the Spirit in/with the help of matter to achieve transformational effects?

I would say it's a valid path, and, just like all paths, not for everyone. Maybe it's not 'Alchemical' according to the 'classical' definitions, and maybe it's not the MOST 'purist' approach. But is it 'valid'? Absolutely.

I know we have all sorts of different categories and subsections at this forum (for example), but in theory we might as well have one single long thread called 'Alchemy', because no matter from which angle, I believe we are attempting to approach the same 'destination' (if there were such a thing :)). The subdivisions are only meant to make navigation/orientation easier, for Like to find Like, and for celebrating the Diversity of approaches towards what I personally believe is ultimately the same 'goal'.

PS: I'm writing all this as a non-user of psychedelics, but as a 'ferocious' advocate of Diversity :)

This makes me think of how mercury/communication has changed over the years... can alchemy change? Can the initial subject change/evolve/mutate?
Does the zodiac/procession determine the Prima? Could we be in a psychedelic age?

Andro
09-18-2012, 03:09 AM
Can the initial subject change/evolve/mutate?

At its 'core' - not really :)

But it can assume many different guises and put on many different garments...

This is why the way to know it, is to look beyond Forms and Appearances...

Rebus7
09-18-2012, 05:37 AM
I think this thread is a very important discussion.


Alchemy is harnessing Spirit to act on Matter as a catalyst for transformation/evolution.

You have really nailed down the definition beautifully here Androgynus. Before I read your addendum to your earlier post, I was about to post a very similar tight definition with the emphasis both on Evolution and Spirit, the two key words. Evolution being the return to the Godhead and the end of separation, and Spirit being the means.
Where laboratory alchemy is unique is that it aims to capture Spirit physically (an apparent oxymoron) in order to action it on matter to spiritualize it. Solve et Coagula. Simplistically, fix the volatile and volatilize the fixed. Transform and Unite.

Returning to the subject of this thread. I personally have spent equal time over decades alternating from the occasional use of a variety of entheogens (a term I now prefer to psychedelics) to meditational initiatory practices. Both approaches have worked well for me and have complemented each other. The last contact I had with entheogens was more than a year ago with Columbian Kofan shamans over a 4 day period. Previously I had taken pure DMT out of context several times. Although valuable, there is absolutely no comparison to experiencing ayahuasca under traditional shamanic nurturing versus taking its active ingredient, DMT, orally in a home setting. I fully endorse the broad comments of Dev and Androgynus from my extensive experience. Particularly I agree that entheogens are not recreational drugs and are not ‘easy’ although they are ‘quick’, and this routinely shakes a soul to its core, catharsis occurring on all levels. Hence the wise, nurturing and safe influence of an experienced shaman is recommended to the uninitiated.
Since my last entheogenic experience, I have had no further desire to imbibe, but I have been led into a deeper meditational practice that is taking me further into peace and realization than I have ever been before.

Awani
09-18-2012, 06:05 PM
Could we be in a psychedelic age?

I would say so, in fact I think that it is a big part of the new age that is coming/growing. The 60s was the first wave. Now we are in a second wave. The third wave will finally tip it all over:)


Previously I had taken pure DMT out of context several times. Although valuable, there is absolutely no comparison to experiencing ayahuasca under traditional shamanic nurturing versus taking its active ingredient, DMT, orally in a home setting.

Yes, I agree fully. Those experiences are miles apart, at least from my own experience.

Also one does not need to take DMT again and again... for most people one time is enough. The aftershock can last a life time. On a personal note the only reason I am really going to Gabon is research. I feel very satisfied with my Ayahuasca experiences and I might do it again (and I want to join up with the Shamans again), but since I am writing and studying this stuff on a more serious level I need to experience Iboga in order to compare the different traditions. I am sure I will get something spiritual out of it as well, and I intend to, but it is also part of my research.

People who take psychedelics weekly are, in my opinion, doing something wrong. Or they are taking weak doses of weak psychedelics. One Big Bang is all you need, the trip will follow you for the rest of your life. This can also be scary if there are truths in it one is not ready to face. But sometimes we need a slap in the face!

:cool:

Bel Matina
09-18-2012, 07:59 PM
Every age has been a psychedelic age.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

for example.

Consider also http://www.logicalpoetry.com/recipes/bread-beer.pdf

There's almost no culture in history that hasn't used some kind of psychoactive agent or another.

Awani
09-18-2012, 08:35 PM
Every age has been a psychedelic age.

It has been suppressed in the West since the Eleusinian Mysteries... and let's face it whatever the West does shapes the outcome of the world. The West is, alas, the force that moves the world. At least it have been so up till now. This may also change.

In ancient times I believe the human race was psychedelic, we left this path and did not return to it until about 70 years ago. It all depends on how you define 'an age'.

0-1950 = not psychedelic age

:cool:

Bel Matina
09-18-2012, 09:46 PM
It's been suppressed by the West since the 1920s, in my opinion more because of the way opium was used as an instrument of control over China by Britain during the colonial period. The current dominance of the West in terms of setting the world's policies is (likewise in my opinion) entirely the enduring legacy of the colonial period, specifically in the fact that most of the institutions of global interchange currently in use were developed as instruments of colonial control. The catholic church suppressed the use of certain psychedelics at various points in history, and it's possible to falsely identify that as many do with the current program of prohibition, but really it was limited to specific substances and vectors because of their role in competing cosmologies (though there is certainly an argument that the current bans have a similar motive, which I would disagree with, it's clear that there's simply no temporal continuity between them). Later on, various protestants endorsed alcohol bans (which easily extended to other substances) under the general banner of avoiding "worldly pleasures", and this movement did play a role in politicizing prohibition this century. Europe's recent past appears superficially to be devoid of psychedelics, but you have to consider that there are no easily identified, prolific psychedelic plants in Europe as there are in, say, Afghanistan. The knowledge required to identify and properly dose the psychedelic plants and fungi that *do* grow in Europe tended to be handed down through institutions that competed with the Catholic church. These institutions were rooted out surprisingly recently; for example, during and prior to the reformation there was a huge movement to 'correct' and in some cases exterminate communities that were deemed for whatever reason "insufficiently Christian" (there's an interesting specific example involving weird sexual practices that survived into the historical record but I can't quite be buggered to go find it). Thus, the main psychoactives available to Christian Europeans for the millennium and change are alcohol and, later, coffee.

In short the current hostility toward an arbitrary and broad group of psychoactives is very much the historical exception, and it's a testament to the effectiveness of modern instruments of propaganda that they've successfully convinced the world that it's the rule. If the European post-enlightenment academic system (another of those instruments of colonial control, its persistent usefulness notwithstanding) hadn't been adopted worldwide, even that wouldn't have worked.

zoas23
09-18-2012, 10:03 PM
Maybe it's a valid "tool" (my English is sometimes terrible) and not exactly a "path".

My GF made me know this comedian, I think he has fantastic ideas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1CvW38cHA

Ghislain
09-19-2012, 08:22 AM
I hate Bill Hicks!

He says everything I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words...now it seems I am just quoting him.

:) Just kidding...I love Bill Hicks; he is an enigma and I think we were short changed by his passing.

An Interview With Bill Hicks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZkO779Vgjg)

Ghislain

Awani
09-19-2012, 11:47 AM
It's been suppressed by the West since the 1920s, in my opinion more because of the way opium was used as an instrument of control over China by Britain during the colonial period. The current dominance of the West in terms of setting the world's policies is (likewise in my opinion) entirely the enduring legacy of the colonial period, specifically in the fact that most of the institutions of global interchange currently in use were developed as instruments of colonial control. The catholic church suppressed the use of certain psychedelics at various points in history, and it's possible to falsely identify that as many do with the current program of prohibition, but really it was limited to specific substances and vectors because of their role in competing cosmologies (though there is certainly an argument that the current bans have a similar motive, which I would disagree with, it's clear that there's simply no temporal continuity between them). Later on, various protestants endorsed alcohol bans (which easily extended to other substances) under the general banner of avoiding "worldly pleasures", and this movement did play a role in politicizing prohibition this century. Europe's recent past appears superficially to be devoid of psychedelics, but you have to consider that there are no easily identified, prolific psychedelic plants in Europe as there are in, say, Afghanistan. The knowledge required to identify and properly dose the psychedelic plants and fungi that *do* grow in Europe tended to be handed down through institutions that competed with the Catholic church. These institutions were rooted out surprisingly recently; for example, during and prior to the reformation there was a huge movement to 'correct' and in some cases exterminate communities that were deemed for whatever reason "insufficiently Christian" (there's an interesting specific example involving weird sexual practices that survived into the historical record but I can't quite be buggered to go find it). Thus, the main psychoactives available to Christian Europeans for the millennium and change are alcohol and, later, coffee.

In short the current hostility toward an arbitrary and broad group of psychoactives is very much the historical exception, and it's a testament to the effectiveness of modern instruments of propaganda that they've successfully convinced the world that it's the rule. If the European post-enlightenment academic system (another of those instruments of colonial control, its persistent usefulness notwithstanding) hadn't been adopted worldwide, even that wouldn't have worked.

I disagree. Psychoactive and psychedelic are two different things (coffee is not ayahuascha), especially shamanic psychedelic initiations which has not been used hardly at all... and if so it has been done in secret. It has not been accessible by the masses. Since Jesus the West had not had an open psychedelic culture. And if it has it has been suppressed historically.

:cool:

Bel Matina
09-19-2012, 01:08 PM
Relative silence in the historical record is not necessarily the result of suppression. Remember that the term "literatus" referred originally to a kind of priest.

I would not say so much since Jesus, or even since Constantine. Native European psychedelics require specialist knowledge to find, prepare, and dose, and that knowledge was passed down within institutions that competed with the church. I would say the big events relevant to that are the foundation of the inquisition (which tried to separate those institutions from positions of political and economic power) and the reformation (when the attempt began in earnest to thoroughly stamp them out).

Also, alcohol can be quite an efficacious initiatory agent. Don't forget about the Maenads. :) You could use coffee too, but generally where coffee has been drunk historically more effective things have been available.

What you're saying (and implying) about today's culture I certainly agree with. I wanted to caution to clear the mist of modernity off your glasses when looking at the past.

Awani
09-19-2012, 02:29 PM
I hear what you are saying, but today average joe can be initiated in the Amazon or Gabon (or elsewhere). There are Ayahuasca churches and Mushroom religions on the rise. There is a greater awareness and the laws seem more and more silly. The Internet. The shrinking size of the world. The discovery of DMT... the re-discovery of indigenous cultures. All of this is part of the last 70 years or so. It has not been like this before. Not on this scale. If there had been a real use of psychedelics in the last 2000 years someone would have mentioned it. I mean my God after I took it for the first time I was wondering why my experience wasn't on the news? I mean this stuff is baffling. How can one not utter a word about it? Sure fear, but psychedelics kind of makes you fearless. If you can survive that, you can survive anything.

For me historically what is interesting is anything before year 0, and anything after 2012. Whatever is in-between is hardly impressive IMO.

:cool:

Bel Matina
09-19-2012, 03:34 PM
Globalism is definitely new, and is making agents available unprecedented in their variety and efficacy. That changes a lot of things, but not the basic relationship between humans and altered states of consciousness. Even that transfer is a bit older than you think; psychoactive cultivars were in full global distribution by the beginning of the nineteenth century, with the most effective modern refined derivatives widely available by the middle of the same. The revolution in synthetic psychoactives came more toward the twentieth, with state-enforced prohibition and propaganda efforts following shortly on its heels. It's that last that you've seen decay over the past 70 years, which started little more than thirty years before that; some of what you're understanding as its breakdown was in fact the alternative impulse. I would say actually that the peak of prohibition in terms of strength relative to its alternative was the nineties (at least in America; populations are like connected pools when it comes to these things, and different pools can evidence different stages of of process simultaneously) and with the rise of the internet and the broader education in psychopharmacology it provides I've seen a gradual breakdown of the "poison/intoxicant/medicine" understanding of psychoactives in favor of a more complex approach closer to their actual nature.

I think you'll find that if you scratch beneath the surface of the retroactive identities which support modern nation-states, there's a lot you'd find to be of interest. If nothing else, there's how much of the modern world was built with the Art. Even beyond that, historical sources are not representative; the vast majority of documents attesting any given period are from one extremely narrow population or another, which invariably have their own agenda and limitations of insight; the art of reading history is thus by and large the art of seeing the unstated. Maybe I'll start a thread on the alchemy of history.

Awani
09-19-2012, 03:45 PM
Maybe I'll start a thread on the alchemy of history.

Sounds like a good idea. It is for sure an interesting subject matter to discuss.

:cool:

solomon levi
09-20-2012, 08:19 PM
People who take psychedelics weekly are, in my opinion, doing something wrong. Or they are taking weak doses of weak psychedelics. One Big Bang is all you need, the trip will follow you for the rest of your life. This can also be scary if there are truths in it one is not ready to face. But sometimes we need a slap in the face!

:cool:

The alchemical/hermetic rules certainly apply IMO.
Psychedelia need to be circulated... you have to come "down" for a while to know how "high" you've gone
and to know how much heaven has been converted to earth and vice-cersa.
Trying to stay "high" all the time or chasing highs is not alchemical IMO.
An alchemist magnetises "high" by being fertile soil. The "soil" must be replenished and fortified and nourished.
If one depletes oneself and keeps taking psychedelia, this is not alchemical.
Puffers chase; alchemists magnetise.
So as in the difference between alchemy and chemistry, the alchemist is key ingredient.
Two people rarely have the same experience, tolerance, vision, etc.

Awani
09-21-2012, 01:28 AM
So as in the difference between alchemy and chemistry, the alchemist is key ingredient.

I might have to steal this quote:)

:cool:

Ghislain
09-21-2012, 09:54 AM
I agree

It is very succinct.

Ghislain

MarkostheGnostic
09-23-2012, 04:59 AM
Maybe it's a valid "tool" (my English is sometimes terrible) and not exactly a "path".

I respectfully disagree.
http://www.thefane.org/client.html#item16,2

zoas23
09-23-2012, 06:53 AM
Maybe it's a valid "tool" (my English is sometimes terrible) and not exactly a "path".

I respectfully disagree.
http://www.thefane.org/client.html#item16,2

O.K... I didn't explain myself better, it was just a sentence! :P

I mostly meant that I don't think that psychedelics or entheogens are really a "path" by themselves... That a "path" is something a bit bigger than that.

It's a bit like vegetarianism... it is very important to understand some traditions. Even some traditions didn't even accept members who were not vegetarian (ie, the school of Pythagoras)...
But I wouldn't say that "vegetarianism" is a path... nor I think that "vegetarianism" by itself leads to the philosophy of Pythagoras (well... certainly it doesn't).

There are other similar practices... I don't know, fasting, comes to my mind as an example.
It does make a lot of sense to do it in the context of some traditions... and, of course, with caution... but "fasting" in itself isn't what I would call "a path".

If vegetarianism and fasting were "paths", then PETA would be full of enlightened people and the anorexic models would be incredibly wise... but the fact is that even if I like PETA a lot, I know they often do stupid things... and the anorexic models are in most cases not THAT smart (I'm sorry for using a stereotype!).

Anyway.... this is mostly a discussion about a word, "path"... and not really about psychedelics or psychedelic experiences.

Ghislain
09-23-2012, 11:48 AM
Path:

1. a way beaten, formed, or trodden by the feet of persons or animals.
2. a narrow walk or way: a path through a garden; a bicycle path.
3. a route, course, or track along which something moves: the path of a hurricane.
4. a course of action, conduct, or procedure: the path of righteousness.
5. Mathematics . a continuous curve that connects two or more points.

Source: (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/path?s=t)

Which definition fits best with your train of thought Zoas?

Another interesting word is "Way"

Way:

1. manner, mode, or fashion: a new way of looking at a matter; to reply in a polite way.
2. characteristic or habitual manner: Her way is to work quietly and never complain.
3. a method, plan, or means for attaining a goal: to find a way to reduce costs.
4. a respect or particular: The plan is defective in several ways.
5. a direction or vicinity: Look this way. We're having a drought out our way.
6. passage or progress on a course: to make one's way on foot; to lead the way.
7. Often, ways. distance: They've come a long way.
8. a path or course leading from one place to another: What's the shortest way to town?
9. British .
a. an old Roman or pre-Roman road: Icknield Way.
b. a minor street in a town: He lives in Stepney Way.
10. a road, route, passage, or channel (usually used in combination): highway; waterway; doorway.
11. Law . a right of way.
12. any line of passage or travel, used or available: to blaze a way through dense woods.
13. space for passing or advancing: to clear a way through the crowd.
14. Often, ways. a habit or custom: The grandmother lived by the ways of the old country.
15. course or mode of procedure that one chooses or wills: They had to do it my way.
16. condition, as to health, prosperity, or the like: to be in a bad way.
17. range or extent of experience or notice: the best device that ever came in my way.
18. a course of life, action, or experience: The way of transgressors is hard.
19. Informal . business: to be in the haberdashery way.
20. Nautical .
a. ways, two or more ground ways down which a hull slides in being launched.
b. movement or passage through the water.
21. Machinery . a longitudinal strip, as in a planer, guiding a moving part along a surface.


Ghislain

Bel Matina
09-23-2012, 04:32 PM
We have some interesting, field-specific usage to explore here. The terms are ambiguous in their usage across different contexts, but I'm detecting four underlying meanings (of course, the whole point of setting out the analysis for me is to be told if it's flawed more than for pedantic reasons, though it's always a thrill to share something new to someone). Attempting to select names in optimal conformity with their usage here:

Tradition: a set of knowledge and practices passed down through multiple individuals; alternately, the set of participating individuals. These are inevitably centered around some particular aim or activity; the same group of individuals can participate in multiple traditions, although there is a tendency of such intersections to find a common aim or practice and thus merge the traditions (or create a completely new one). This is primarily driven by the phenomenon of elements of one tradition being coopted for use in another, and the convergence in content this produces. As a result, there is a tendency for the defining aim or activity to drift as the content mutates over different permutations.

Method/Tool: The specific practices and ideas which cohere to form the content of the tradition.

Stream/School/Branch/Path/Way: As the participating community of a tradition segments into subsets in infrequent contact, their differential intersections produce drift between their content. If this lasts long enough, their aims can become unintelligible to each other and they have become functionally separate traditions. They reach the point of being separate paths when the aims of the two streams remain intelligible, but the body of methods each hosts fail to cohere with each other, making indiscriminate selection between the practices within the two of them fail to drive progress toward the common aim.

By this analysis, psychedelics are a tool within the tradition (which has found use within all its branches at one point or another), and there is also a "psychedelic path" named arbitrarily for the notability of that tool within their stream.

Avatar
09-23-2012, 06:33 PM
All movements are mind altering.
The mind is altered easyer than feeling.
some things alter more than others.

As an aghori would aim for.
Fly high, but when you come back to earth,bring the sky with you.
flying high,coupled with the high coming low.
Thus the heavens are always with you.

Salvia divinorum and cannabis mixed unblocked a childhood ability of mine.
Partially anyway. Then I used physiological manipulation to release the rest of it.

A key. Can unlock doors if turned.
that same key,can lock that same door,if turned the opposite way.

My little one knows. Keys unlock doors. He often tries to unlock any door with any key. Although he is too little to reach the locks. He also does not yet realize.
that the key only unlocks specific doors. And that it can only lock spacific doors.

So its all in how you use the key.

As well. My ability. Every movement of your body,alters consciousness.
Knowing it and perceiving it directly.
in short. Eating,not eating,moving,twitching,posture,talking,all the senses,thinking/feeling. Breathing,your heart pumping. It is all mind/feeling altering.

Man fears that which causes quick alteration.
If I slowly change into a murderer, he create theories as to why. If I slowly change into an asshole. We create theories as to why.
But if I take a drug. And these things are suddenly brought to fruition.
we blame the drug.
As well,I could suddenly developed compassion,or a.giving nature.

Possession by a drug can happen as well. That is the danger.
drink the drink. Dont let the drink,drink you.
A man can control water in a cup. He has it contained.
but a man cannot control the uncontained ocean.

Lowering inhibitions makes alteration easyer and thus more rapid.
but if the drug is powerful. One can loose control of alterations.

The biggest danger, is an amateur ignorant and possessed by the alterations.

This is easily seen in sober people. Emotions. Mans mind is supported by feeling.
when feeling changes so does mind. People become possessed by temporary intense emotions,and commonly can't see beyond them.

In the bright light. With purpose in mind. One can use drugs effectively and without downfall.
Know the purpose. Know the drug.know its alterations.know the territory!
When in doubt. Start with small doses. And work your way up ;) the turtle wins this race. The rabbit ends up hangin out with the madhatter in wonderland.

Oh! The hardest part in this path. Bringing it to reality after the drug. Fixating the volatile.

MarkostheGnostic
09-23-2012, 11:19 PM
O.K... I didn't explain myself better, it was just a sentence! :P

I mostly meant that I don't think that psychedelics or entheogens are really a "path" by themselves... That a "path" is something a bit bigger than that.

It's a bit like vegetarianism... it is very important to understand some traditions. Even some traditions didn't even accept members who were not vegetarian (ie, the school of Pythagoras)...
But I wouldn't say that "vegetarianism" is a path... nor I think that "vegetarianism" by itself leads to the philosophy of Pythagoras (well... certainly it doesn't).

There are other similar practices... I don't know, fasting, comes to my mind as an example.
It does make a lot of sense to do it in the context of some traditions... and, of course, with caution... but "fasting" in itself isn't what I would call "a path".

If vegetarianism and fasting were "paths", then PETA would be full of enlightened people and the anorexic models would be incredibly wise... but the fact is that even if I like PETA a lot, I know they often do stupid things... and the anorexic models are in most cases not THAT smart (I'm sorry for using a stereotype!).

Anyway.... this is mostly a discussion about a word, "path"... and not really about psychedelics or psychedelic experiences.

OK, that makes sense. Just taking a psychedelic doesn't make a path. True. Wine can be taken sacramentally, ritually, recreationally, or compulsively (addictively). Psychedelics are all-too-often just mind-toys for the bored, thrill-seeking, rebellious, and/or disenfranchised. Vegetarianism and fasting can be consequences of the heightened awareness and insight provided by psychedelic trips. For me, I saw the immediate similarities between Indian Yoga and Neoplatonic philosophy, both of which I was studying as a consequence of heavy psychedelic use. I saw psychedelic experience as giving rise to both of these philosophies millennia ago, and then I used those philosophical frameworks to serve as 'scaffolding' to support the psychedelic 'rocket ship.' This is kind of what the William Hurt character in the film 'Altered States' did when he enhanced the psychedelic shaman brew with a sensory deprivation tank. Classic Yoga moves progressively to greater degrees of sensory withdrawal until awareness of internal states far outweighs the outer world. Pythagoras influenced Plato, and I won't speculate on Pythagoras, but I have an intuition that Plato had the psychedelic Kykeon at Eleusis. Yoga has been theorized as originating with the Soma of the Vedas, but I rather think that Psilocybes and their relation to Sacred Cows and Sacred Cow Dung is a likelier candidate than Wasson's notion of the Amanita muscaria. But all of these things I've mentioned are part of a psychedelic path. Had I not taken psychedelics, the entire course of my life would have been different. Not only would I not have spent the time to take 3 academic degrees in subjects like philosophy, theology, and psychology, I would not have returned from the frame shop this afternoon with my old copy of Joseph Parker's 'Sunrise in Blue,' 41 years after having taken my first psychedelic trip on 200 Freedonia® Heavenly Blue Morning Glory Seeds. http://iasos.com/artists/jparker/

Ghislain
09-24-2012, 05:03 AM
Thanks Avaar186

A great post with useful insight.

MtG are you recommending Freedonia® Heavenly Blue Morning Glory Seeds? ;)

I notice that Joseph Parker does like to keep to the same theme in his art...is the lake an obstacle to what lies beyond?

Some do contain roads/paths to the other side.

Beautiful pictures.

Ghislain

Just thought...we are talking of psychedelics being a valid path and JP is painting valid paths to the psychedelics. :)

MarkostheGnostic
09-24-2012, 09:13 PM
No, I'm not recommending Lysergic Acid Amides in morning glories. They produce a very unwanted lethargy that Albert Hofmann addressed in his book LSD: My Problem Child. I was merely noting that my first psychedelic visions were "occasioned" by them. 'Sunrise in Blue' is as accurate a rendering of those visions as ever I've seen, although the slowly rotating and kaleidoscopic morphing was of an 'astral' silvery-blue, and were not centered around the Sun. Other accounts of morning glory trips can be found in Masters and Houston's The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience. Aside from the depiction of said visions, and the four alchemical elements, I have not interpreted this piece of art as anything other than a type of visionary experience that may, for all I know, be behind Ezekiel's vision of Ophanim (Wheels-within-Wheels, covered with eyes [perhaps symbols of omniscience]).

Avatar
09-25-2012, 01:56 AM
Soma may have been mushrooms.
But I would like to bring up.
that many of us take mind altering substances
A: we take only that plant. Scarcely mixing and matching
B: little preperation of the substance beyond need.
Ie the hallucinogenic brew containing dmt,is prepared because without preparation the dmt would not enter our system.

soma may very well be the name of a prepared and possibly mixed substance.
Thus it very well may be raw.mushrooms. or raw mushrooms prepared.

Agnihotra is the name for the science of using ashes.
unfortunately its a hard thing to research.

Their is an actual name for the path traversed using drugs in the Indie language. Although its been years since I came upon the word.

As well. When it comes to preparation. Know ayurveda is a natural science. Just as alchemy is. And may possibly be an equivalent of sorts.

MarkostheGnostic
09-28-2012, 03:12 PM
Alchemy in India is called Rasayana.

Awani
10-03-2012, 12:07 AM
I liked this quote from Daniel Pinchbeck's book Breaking open the head:


When Dennis McKenna, Terence's botanist brother, drank ayahuasca with the Uniao do Vegetal, a Brazilian syncretic religion that uses ayahuasca as its sacrament, he was turned into a sentient water molecule in the jungle soil, pulled up through a vine's roots to experience the miraculous molecular processes of photosynthesis in its leaves. "Somehow I understood - though no words were involved - that the Banisteriopsis vine was the embodiment of the plant intelligence that embraced and covered the earth," he recalled. At the end of his vision, a voice told him, "You monkeys only think you're running things." - source (http://www.breakingopenthehead.com/read_the_book_snake.htm)

:cool:

crestind
03-31-2014, 04:51 AM
So what exactly is so special. The impression I get is you just trip balls. I'm not sure I see how this is enlightening, seeing as none of it is even real. Now people are going to get all philosophical and say, "But what is real?"
My point is, that no solid information of any sort has been gained from a psychedelic experience. All you are left with once you're done tripping balls is with vague feelings, and feelings are not solid things that can be measured.
Don't get me wrong, I think these things are good to experience a few times for the sake of it, but I doubt anything of value can be gained from it. Seems lots of new agers are under the delusion that you'll magically warp into Buddhaland or something from tripping all the time.

DonSweet
03-31-2014, 06:11 AM
crestind ...

In my opinion anyway, the discussion is about transcendence, not just "tripping."

If all you gain from any experience is a headache, then you haven't transcended anything.

How would you personally define transcendence?

What is it you think you might personally need to experience transcendence?

Is the idea of transcending from what you know to perhaps something you do not know not possible in your view?

Do you believe there is actually anything to transcend to?

Have you ever experienced something you could define as non-physical? (It's a trick question)

I'm also curious ... how would you [generally] describe "Enlightenment"?

Awani
03-31-2014, 02:57 PM
So what exactly is so special. The impression I get is you just trip balls. I'm not sure I see how this is enlightening, seeing as none of it is even real. Now people are going to get all philosophical and say, "But what is real?" My point is, that no solid information of any sort has been gained from a psychedelic experience. All you are left with once you're done tripping balls is with vague feelings, and feelings are not solid things that can be measured.
Don't get me wrong, I think these things are good to experience a few times for the sake of it, but I doubt anything of value can be gained from it. Seems lots of new agers are under the delusion that you'll magically warp into Buddhaland or something from tripping all the time.

Well I must say you are wrong or at least misinformed.

It doesn't matter if what you experience is real or not real... if the experience helps you then it will help you regardless if it is real or not real.

"But what is real?" It is a valid argument, and I cannot claim that what I have experienced has not been real.

There have been lots of solid information gained from psychedelic experiences. It can even be argued that both the evolution of the human brain and of modern society (the Greek) is a direct result of psychedelics as well as all the major religions. But again if you want solid facts the first thing that pops into my mind is Francis Crick who discovered DNA thanks to an informative LSD experience. Still the most solid information that you gain from psychedelics is highly individual and is sometimes difficult to share with other people.

You gain only value, it is not about tripping balls at all. It is serious, sacred and highly informative. It can cure depression, PTSD, make you want to change your whole being, change sex, re-evaluate your life, start a family... etc etc...

I have never been left with vague feelings after taking psychedelics. But if you have had such an experience I can only imagine you have either taken the wrong dose, the wrong psychedelic or taken it in the wrong setting.

You cannot put a true psychedelic journey into language. It is impossible. It cannot be read, it has to be beheld. So trip reports might seem vague or uninformative, but that is because if you really want to 'see' you have to take it properly yourself. And the value you can gain from it can be both earth shattering and life changing.

You don't magically warp into Buddhaland... Buddhaland manifests in your life. Again it cannot be explained, it can only be experienced. The good thing is anyone can experience it. It doesn't require any effort other than swallowing or inhaling.

But if set and setting and dose is not correct psychedelics are utterly meaningless.

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
03-31-2014, 05:11 PM
So what exactly is so special. The impression I get is you just trip balls. I'm not sure I see how this is enlightening, seeing as none of it is even real. Now people are going to get all philosophical and say, "But what is real?"
My point is, that no solid information of any sort has been gained from a psychedelic experience. All you are left with once you're done tripping balls is with vague feelings, and feelings are not solid things that can be measured.
Don't get me wrong, I think these things are good to experience a few times for the sake of it, but I doubt anything of value can be gained from it. Seems lots of new agers are under the delusion that you'll magically warp into Buddhaland or something from tripping all the time.

Obviously, that is all that YOU have come away with, and that is sad. Perhaps you were not guided by elders in this practice, because "tripping balls" is just a vulgar colloquialism that reveals a rather profane take on the practice. Francis Crick was on LSD when he had visions of a double-helix, and DNA was born. Both Bill Gates and Steve Jobs took acid, and Steve Jobs ranked it with the the top-most important experiences of his life. Then there were less-than-stellar 'trippers' like me, for whom the Buddhist experience of the 'Clear Light' DID emerge from mere intellectual idea to Present Reality. The result for me was a 'turning in the seat of consciousness.' I left my studies in pre-medicine biology for philosophy! I don't know if you can appreciate the radical nature of a scientifically materialistic Jewish boy, whose parents had furnished with all manner of chemistry equipment, a home lab beginning at age 10, books, chemicals, etc., all in the cultural hope of their son becoming a medical doctor - suddenly becoming a useless philosophy major!

After graduation with a B.A. degree in philosophy, and a brief stint as a truck driver in a small electrical supply firm, imagine their further consternation when their son took catechism lessons from a Roman Catholic priest, and then, synchronistically (which is to say, miraculously), on July 1, 1976, exactly 4 years to the day of his first LSD trip on 'Clear Light' or 'Windowpane' LSD, that young Jewish philosopher received the sacrament of Baptism in the Roman Catholic Church! But that was not the end of the metanoia that LSD had Initiated in me. I visited the uncle of a Catholic girl I had been 'tripping' with, who was a Capuchin-Reformed Franciscan monk in a monastery in Harlem, NYC, with the thought that I too might become a novitiate in that order. He regaled us us with stories of his life there, about the feelings of invisible bodies on his bed at night (succubi, or possibly incubi, because I was pretty sure he was Gay), and the sound of clanking, jangling chains. I thought that that he had become unhinged by his lifestyle, and temporarily moved away from the idea of monasticism. But, no, my psychedelic metanoia was not yet complete.

I visited first the graduate school of Drew University in Madison, NJ, but their programs required fluency in French, or German, or both (for a Ph.D.). Instead, I applied to their United Methodist Theological Seminary. Imagine, once again, the Jewish boy requesting that his parents sponsor a two year degree program an a Christian seminary. Which degree I wanted was undecided. I told my dad an M.T.S. degree because it was purely academic, as opposed to an M.Div. degree which led to ordination in the United Methodist Church as a minister. A year later, when halfway through the program, my father spontaneously came out with, "If you want to become a minister, it's all right with me." This was HUGE, but he could see the change in me. I had quit smoking hashish, I even stopped the LSD. I had an 8-track tape in my car with the song by singer-songwriter Larry Norman: 'No More LSD For Me' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A1dz_nCMcM

I graduated with honors, specializing in psychology & religion, and took a whole course in the 'Work of C.G. Jung.' Those professors wrote me letters of recommendation that helped me get into a Ph.D. program in Human Development and Clinical Psychology at the University of Maryland. Once again, synchronicities occurred. My fist academic advisor died, and Dr. Jake Goering had just returned from Zurich, where he had become a Jungian analyst - the only one in Maryland at the time. When I purchased the Collected Works of C.G. Jung, it then cost $629 with shipping. When I received my tax return from the IRS. It was exactly $629!!! Jake sponsored my dissertation which was one of the last non-research types allowed, but rather a historical narrative. I already had the idea before I even applied to grad school. It was taken from one page in Ram Dass' first book, The Only Dance There Is. I had gleaned this idea while I was on LSD, where he equated a few chakra phenomenologies with Western psychologists: e.g., Freud with the anal-genital chakras, Adler with the navel chakra, Jung with the heart chakra. My contribution was to use the Tibetan Buddhist system of chakras instead of the Hindu system, which is a 'shepherd's crook' path of ascending and descending energies, and demonstrated phenomenologies with several Western theorists. It was a mouthful (I wanted only six words, but the committee insisted on a dissertation title): A Phenomenological Adaptation of the Tibetan Buddhist Doctrine of Psychic Centers to a Metatheoretical Hierarchy of Human Motivation. I had earned a Ph.D..

Please do not assume that your own failure to come away from imbibing psychedelics with any more than "vague feelings," means that other people can and DO come away with much, much more. Of course feelings cannot be measured. Quantification is a model that does not apply to studies in consciousness. Consciousness is neither spatial or temporal at its undefined limits. The expressions 'infinitely large' and 'infinitesimally small' are paradoxical because the Infinite annihilates the meanings of the words 'large' and 'small.' Infinity defies quantification. The relative and the absolute are different orders of being. Newtonian physics doesn't apply at the microcosmic quantum level nor at the galactic macrocosmic level. Psychedelic "occasioned" mystical experience is everywhere as "real" as spontaneously attained mystical experience according to Huston Smith and those who are in agreement with his view (including me) as opposed to the view of R.C. Zaehner, who thought that psychedelics only afforded mystical experiences of a 'nature mysticism' or 'pantheistic' type, but not of a theistic type. I beg to differ, and moreover, a panentheistic type is also possible.

Perhaps with unlearning your current attitude, and with guidance from an experienced guide, you could also be prepared adequately to experience a life-altering event, but of course, you'd have to be willing to be able. Lesson #1: Check ego at the door. Ego is not the standard for measuring the value of Gnosis, it is the hindrance. Ego is like one of the 'Archons' that prevents access to Gnosis. Humility is prerequisite, because in order to receive Gnosis, 'you,' your ego, is going to have to undergo psychological death. You will need to die (psychologically), before you die (physically). "Magically warp?" No, but heed this: "Magic Theatre, For Madmen Only, Price of Admission Your Mind" - Herman Hesse, Steppenwolf.

crestind
04-01-2014, 04:43 AM
crestind ...

In my opinion anyway, the discussion is about transcendence, not just "tripping."

If all you gain from any experience is a headache, then you haven't transcended anything.

How would you personally define transcendence?

Well I'm not entirely sure, because to some extent I base my definitions on preexisting ones, but transcendence seems to be very ill defined. If I had to say, I'd probably say it would mean experiencing or knowing what cannot be possible in the "real world" not under the influence of the drug, maybe some knowledge of some special plant with healing properties is delivered to you somehow during a trip.


Well I must say you are wrong or at least misinformed.

It doesn't matter if what you experience is real or not real... if the experience helps you then it will help you regardless if it is real or not real.

"But what is real?" It is a valid argument, and I cannot claim that what I have experienced has not been real.

I agree that a trip can help one develop for the better, completely change your outlook on life, cure stress disorders, etc. I guess what I still see is that after tripping people are only left with feelings rather than some sort of solid information. I suppose my skepticism stems from disenchantment with the actual effects vs the expected effects. The descriptions of trips are so sensational, I sort of expected some otherwise unknowable information to be accessed, like a guy comes to you in your experience and gives you some sort of information, but this is unfortunately not the case. The helix anecdote is interesting, and it could be, but during a trip you see all sorts of patterns and shapes. Though I am curious if anyone has learned some sort of solid information during a trip? I have read once that South American tribes would consume hallucinogens and that beings would come to them in their trips and educate them about certain herbs, but it's just hearsay.


Obviously, that is all that YOU have come away with, and that is sad. Perhaps you were not guided by elders in this practice, because "tripping balls" is just a vulgar colloquialism that reveals a rather profane take on the practice.
I see what you are saying, that you can use these compounds and still be successful, like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. And I agree completely. Nothing wrong with drug use. You can use any sort of hallucinogen and still be successful, etc. I suppose the whole issue I take with hallucinogens is that in the end most of the experience is feelings, rather than some sort of quantifiable experience.

DonSweet
04-01-2014, 05:04 AM
crestind ...

Thanks for the reply ... however brief ... no sarcasm intended.

Wouldn't transcendence mean growth? Wouldn't it mean you come away from whatever experience (drug-induced or not) being more than you were before the experience?

Does it even have to be profound?

Can't it be incremental?

Have you never had a life or perspective changing experience?

I suppose my inquiry is about your [apparent] need to stay fixed ... to have solid ground under your feet.

crestind
04-01-2014, 05:19 AM
I do not really define transcendence as growth, although growth may be an effect of it.

I define it more or less close to the common definition
"existence or experience beyond the normal or physical level."

My thought was that, if all that is gotten out of a trip is just feelings, however intense, wouldn't it be all in the head, and if it's all in the head, it's not really beyond a normal or physical level.

An experience beyond a normal or physical level would need to be pretty profound as I see it. A trip might be a good tool to cause some sort of transcendence I suppose, but I do not think that the trip itself is transcendent at all, since as far as I can tell it's just the brain (or spirit/soul, etc.) going haywire. Some say that by tripping you actually get closer to God or something, and I can't say I agree with that.

I can't say I have actually had a life changing experience, though perhaps with a trip that might change. :cool:

It's not really a concern about uncertainty, but rather what is real and not real.

MarkostheGnostic
04-01-2014, 05:40 AM
Dubuis clearly has not used let alone familiarized himself with the workings of psychedelics, and nobody, no matter what their credentials are or reputation they may have elsewhere is any position to pontificate about psychedelics. I speak this with 43 years of fruitful use of these sacred substances behind me, and the life-long dedication to understand the Mystery which is Consciousness that they revealed to me. Visions are what they are, and they differ from indole to catecholamine psychedelics. The phenomenology of the "form constants" of Mescaline visions as described by Heinrich Kluver in Mescal and Mechanisms of Hallucinations, are vastly different from Pablo Amaringo's depictions of Yajé visions, which are different again from the mandalic visions that Psilocybin and LSD evoke in my 4+ decades of exploration. Dubuis' comment reminds me of the talk that C.G. Jung had with Albert Einstein (according to Jung's recounting). Jung admitted having no idea what Einstein was talking about, and then he had what he called "his time to shine." An expert in one specific area does not mean expertise in closely associated areas too. Psyche and matter may well be two sides of the same phenomena, but Jung and Einstein could not have embodied each others expertise.

It is doubtful that Dubuis is any kind of expert on chakras, (psychic centers) either. What is his basis for such a statement, and which chakra model is he referring to. The Hindu Yogas do have a monopoly on this model, in fact there are variations in models, even within the Tibetan Buddhist schools. I completed a 222 doctoral dissertation on the psychic centers in 1983 after just 10 years of meditation and study on the system that one teacher taught (Lama Govinda), and now I have had an additional 31 years of experience to contribute. Psychedelic do not destroy chakras, the motivations associated with those centers either on the pre or post-enlightment (OM) experience of the Brain Center, or the psycho-cosmic interphases that these centers symbolize. Psychedelics seem to cause the greatest degree of trouble for those who have never taken any! :D

MarkostheGnostic
04-01-2014, 05:55 AM
I suppose the whole issue I take with hallucinogens is that in the end most of the experience is feelings, rather than some sort of quantifiable experience.

Then aside from some others who may benefit from my lengthy and admittedly long-winded post, it has fallen on completely deaf ears in your case. Psychedelics profoundly changed my entire life, what I did with my life, the relationships with my family members (like being essentially disowned by much of my Jewish family). My identity was expanded beyond the limits of socio-cultural programming to become universal (catholic with a small 'c'). I took 3 academic degrees and 10 years in universities, fueled by my need to understand more about the Mystery that psychedelics revealed to me, not primarily because I needed a job. I'm 60 years old and just as enthusiastic as I was 40 years ago. So stop with that marginalization shit about "feelings." Feeling are an afterthought at best. Awe and Wonder may have lesser emotional auras around them, but they themselves of of a higher order of apprehension. They constitute the primal religious experience. Awe is a word for the Numinous, the Mysterium Tremendum (Rudolph Otto). They constitute ecstasy and enstasy, contemplation at its most profound levels. You don't quantify experiences of God.

Awani
04-01-2014, 12:10 PM
Though I am curious if anyone has learned some sort of solid information during a trip? I have read once that South American tribes would consume hallucinogens and that beings would come to them in their trips and educate them about certain herbs, but it's just hearsay.

Well then I can confirm that the hearsay is very true!!!

That is exactly what happens. It is like being in an interstellar congress with alien beings that impart important knowledge. I notice you keep going back to solid information... not sure what you mean. One thing I learned in my psychedelic journeys is that there is no such thing as solid information.


I suppose the whole issue I take with hallucinogens is that in the end most of the experience is feelings, rather than some sort of quantifiable experience.

Well you are right and wrong, it depends on what you want. But I have had several quantifiable experiences on psychedelics, and so have other people I've talked to. I'm not sure where you get your views on the matter (personal experience, views heard from other people, books).


My thought was that, if all that is gotten out of a trip is just feelings, however intense, wouldn't it be all in the head, and if it's all in the head, it's not really beyond a normal or physical level.

Not sure where this idea that you only get feelings out of a trip stems from? Everything is in the head... you know it is very hard to explain. If you are really interested my only suggestion is to go down to the Amazon and partake in an Ayahuasca ceremony. And then you can judge for yourself the validity. Really that is the only way to do it.

Personally I had similar thoughts as you before I did it myself, but your brain gets rewired. Things that seems logical or important pre-trip became illogical and unimportant post-trip. A new world dawns!


...what is real and not real.

Exactly!

:cool:

DonSweet
04-01-2014, 01:30 PM
Curiosity question dev ...

How much does your Ayahuasca ceremony cost?

Awani
04-01-2014, 04:21 PM
How much does your Ayahuasca ceremony cost?

Well it is not cheap, but it is certainly worth every single penny. It costs about 2000 USD. But that includes 7 intense ceremonies over 14 days + 3 meals a day and sleeping quarters, plus sweating ceremony, flower baths, vomitiva (drinking water till you puke), massage and any additional medicine you might need that the shamans provide. The money I pay not only goes to pay for everything but it also supports a local charity that works with permaculture and helping the indigenous with their rights to the land, as the oil companies are trying to steal it from them.

Additional cost is plane ticket. If you are interested send me a PM. There is a very good place I go to in Peru that has 100 % serious shamans and dedication to traditional healing. There are lots of money grabbing fakes that you can easily stumble upon, so it is best to go to a place that someone can vouch for, and is safe.

You can do it cheaper in the US or in Europe, but I strongly advice against this. The best experience is to do it locally with real shamans and real traditions, on site, in the rainforest. Do it like it's been done for thousands of years.

I've done it twice (about 10 ceremonies) and going for number three this fall. If you haven't seen it check out my two report in this thread: Ayahuasca Report (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?1298-Ayahuasca-Report)

:cool:

DonSweet
04-02-2014, 06:56 AM
Thanks dev ...

Thanks for the detailed response. As I say, just curious, so no, not prepared to lay out cash.

Since my first Lakota ceremony in 1987, my total expenditure has been ...

$0 ...

... save gas to get there and food for afterward, if you even want to bother including that.

Now, that figure isn't "technically" correct, which I explain below.

The Elders ... the ones that aren't charlatans or rip-off artists (with whom I do not associate) ... are usually actually Indians from reservations with a history and connections to their communities as "medicine people". They always, always emphasize the fact that you should never pay for ceremony. There is no admission fee. They refuse money. Ceremony should never be associated with money -- particularly White Man's money -- in Indian Country.

It is, however, traditional to bring along a thank-you gift, but the philosophy is that if all you have to offer is a glass of water, the gesture is the same.

I once gave a sweat lodge leader (medicine person) a Buck knife and he nearly panicked. A knife is a spiritually valued gift since it can save your life out in the wilderness ... even save your whole family. I'd caught him away from the house and any of his belongings at the lodge. He scrounged into his pocket and found a quarter, making sure he got it into my hand as quickly as possible.

Ceremony is a "gift" in-and-of itself. Gifting, in-and-of-itself, is sacred.

I was flat broke a few years ago and attended another lodge ... the prayer emphasis being on my plight, naturally. After lodge, I approached the sweat lodge leader's wife and gave her a dollar. I'm not sure of the timing, but I'm sure sometime before that lodge, I'd experienced $3 in my checking account more than once, with zero savings.

That dollar was worth far more than a dollar ...

... but I still never gave it to the medicine person, but his wife. She knows me and knew what it meant.

That's the only ever single dollar I've ever paid for ceremony ...

... and probably ever will.

Awani
04-02-2014, 10:22 AM
That's the only ever single dollar I've ever paid for ceremony ...
... and probably ever will.

Well that's a shame. You don't know what your missing. ;)

Also it would be utterly illogical to have 7 shamans working 10 hours a day for 14 days just to serve me, house me, feed me and enlighten me. It is the only income they can get. The oil companies and the white man has destroyed their communities, taken away their rights... sometimes Christians have even murdered them (and I am talking about just a few years ago) for thinking they are witches.

I don't see a problem with it. I even give them some more money (tips) because they are worth it, so they can send their children to school.

So I disagree with what you say. In an ideal world 'gifting' is very nice, but that is not the situation in the Amazon. If I go down there and find a shaman that can do it all for free I would not want to participate as that is more likely to be a fake that wants to rob and rape me.

Same situation when I did Iboga in Africa.

The Native Americans are a bit different... they live in the West, and even though they have been royally fucked over they still have some sort of support and some sort of rights. Their situation is not as bad as the indidegnous of the Amazon or Central Africa. Can't even be compared.

On a final note Ayahuasca is a miracle. If you can compare a life time of psychotherapy to the cost of one ceremony you notice that it is very cheap. ;)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/397247_3054433209327_1543296020_n_zps79ee3291.jpg

:cool:

Andro
04-02-2014, 10:36 AM
Adequate energy exchange is very important.

If one is a proper long term student/apprentice, there is no payment involved, but gifts (or labor) are acceptable ways do perform this exchange.

In the situation that Dev describes, gifts and/or labor do not seem like valid and mutually beneficial energy exchange alternatives.


"Tonto make trade"

Don, I don't know what ceremonies you participated in, but in my own shamanic training (of many years), some sort of energy exchange is the way to go, in whatever form is acceptable by the involved parties.

Everything has a 'price', not necessarily money, but it must be paid, one way or another. Something for nothing is not a an ethical option.

Many Dark shamans may give 'free' initiations, but they also have the skills to steal 'soul pieces' from the participants. I've treated several victims of this with 'Soul Retrieval'.

Awani
04-02-2014, 10:45 AM
In the situation that Dev describes, gifts and/or labor do not seem like valid and mutually beneficial energy exchange alternatives.

Exactly, they would gain NOTHING from it if I only provided gifts/labor. Some of them need money for lawyers (to fight the oil companies), and lawyers don't accept pocket knives, alas. :)

Also they can turn you down. Money doesn't mean they will heal you. Love will.

On a side-note in Gabon, when I paid for the ceremony, they had a payment ritual and they placed the money by a sacred tree. The money I gave was positive energy that they would convert to positive energy back into me. At least this is my perception.

:cool:

DonSweet
04-02-2014, 05:33 PM
Oh ... well ... dev ...

I'm not trying to be competitive or to compare their situation to the North American Indian communities. Different continents, different cultures and different ways to go about resolving problems.

I think you can tell from previous posts that I have a disdain for what Europeans have done to Native populations. Like [or worse than] the burning of The Library of Alexandria, the decimation of Native/Indigenous populations has evaporated an Untold Wisdom that will take generations to recover, if it ever does.

Remember too, that these are not my perspectives, but theirs. This is what they tell me. I haven't invented any of these philosophies or traditions, neither do I claim one is better than the other. North American Indians simply have a different way of waging this Spiritual War, no different than South American Indians have a different way of entering the Ethereal World. By analogy, it's apples and oranges ... but fortunately, they're both fruit.

"Yet Even Today" should be the mantra of Indigenous People all over the world, which it actually is in a sense.

Slowly, the shockingly appalling behavior of Western Culture is working its way into the mainstream dialogue.

Sadly, all this has a lot to do with "saving face" ... almost as much as it has to do with terminally grinding this Western-Cultural-Machine-of-Destruction-Exclusively for-the-Sake-of-Greed into dust.

The conscience of Western Culture is slowly awakening ... as evidenced by your activities and mine ... (naturally assuming you are of European extraction).

I have no idea of your age, but more and more of up-and-coming generations of Western Culture are saying, "Fuck-This-Shit," and finding better ways than simply obeying the Status Quo. I find that very encouraging.

We ain't there yet, by a long shot, but the dialogue has at least begun.

No ... I do not in any way belittle or beguile what South American Indians are doing ... or even you in spending your money. After all, using an enemy's own weapons against him is a traditional (and even sacred) way of waging war in Indian culture. Besides, there is an utter priority in stopping this Machine of Destruction in its path. Whatever works is fine by me.

One thing I came to say about myself in recent years -- and please try to put this in context -- is that I'm a Destroyer of Worlds ... a Rabble Rouser ... a Paradigm Wrecker. Either subtly or overtly, voluntarily or involuntarily, I "shake-'em-up-to-wake-'em-up."

Now ... I didn't plan this and neither do I even really want it. I wish ... as many do ... that none of this was even necessary.

But you and I both know that it is necessary, beyond any doubt.

We both know that Western Culture is a juggernaut of consumption eating everything in its path ... including the very home it inhabits.

That agenda has only one conclusion ...

... termination.

Better we terminate them before they terminate us all.

Welcome to The Reservation.

Awani
04-02-2014, 05:43 PM
Basse!*

* A word meaning complete agreement or understanding as used by the Bwiti in Gabon.

On a side note I am most certainly a wanna-be indigenous. And proudly so!

:cool:

DonSweet
04-02-2014, 06:33 PM
Androgynus ...

In glancing back at my posts, it's not hard to see where someone might think I'm idealizing the things I've said about North American Indian culture, but it's frankly neither the case or the whole story. It's hard to relate twenty-seven years of experience in just a few paragraphs in a chat forum.

I've mentioned that Indians are struggling with a resurgence of their cultures, and I've also eluded to the fact that they have been corrupted ... in innumerable ways. Part of that corruption is within their own cultures proper ... abject intentionally imposed poverty, denial of cultural rights, forced reeducation, force-fed alcoholism, the intentional systematic fragmentation of family and community ... and more, this being the tip of the iceberg ... will create members of the Indian community that are themselves corrupt.

They know this ... in spades.

There has been a civil war within Indian Country for more than a hundred years ... way more. It's agonizing to come to understand, and worse to personally witness. It's way more complicated than a few sentences can illustrate, but the conflict is basically between Stay-by-the-Fort Indians and Traditional Indians.

Essentially, the Stay-by-the-Fort Indians came to believe there was no way to beat the White Man, so they felt the only way to survive was to acquiesce to him ... and "stay by the fort" rather than fight or resist. Resisting ... or even merely being AWAY from the literal fort ... got you killed.

Naturally, the White Man's corruption has infected this block of the Native population, in all its facets, dimensions and shades.

The gentleman that introduced me to Native ways ... perhaps a book in-an-of-itself ... grew to have two sweat lodges on one site, one for men (facing West) and one for women (facing East) with the Sacred Fire in the center. At one point, he met and invited a supposed full blood Holy Man from New Mexico to come and teach and participate here in Pennsylvania.

During one of the sweats, he sexually abused one of the female participants. How this idiot felt it would go unnoticed is beyond reason. Needless to say, my friend and his "tiospaye" (tee-oh-spy-yay) or extended family (sweat lodge group) immediately expelled this individual and disassembled and burned every fragment of the lodge.

No ... disease spreads disease, and Indian Country is no exception.

Now ... briefly ... do I "hate" my own European ancestry or every aspect of the culture that generated and perpetuated this despicable juggernaut I disparage? From my writing, you might think I do ... but I do not.

It is born of ignorance ... in the general population that participates in it, anyway ... not malice. The POWER STRUCTURE and those few that are conscious of its intent and perpetuate it are those few that are blindly, arrogantly, narcissistically malicious. All others deserve pity (in a compassionate way) rather than ridicule ... or even retribution. They deserve an education ... a stern, clear, passionate and COMpassionate education ...

... unless they enjoy, support, defend and insist on perpetuating the Status Quo, in which case they need to be simply stopped from continuing.

Now ...

That "stopping" is also evolving in the mainstream dialogue. Violence is being eradicated from the equation and "purified" ... an analogy to the "purification" processes of Alchemy, perhaps?

But history has proven that the Status Quo has perfected victory through violence. Violence is "their way" but not "the way."

This very forum and its representation of the evolution of Western cultural values BACK to its roots of Enlightenment is how this process will triumph.

Patience, education, actually practicing a pathway to knowledge/understanding and the forgiveness of ignorance will wipe this scourge from the face of The Earth.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Ghislain
04-03-2014, 08:46 AM
Don

Some of those "stay by the fort" Indians played the American game.


Native American gaming refers to casinos, bingo halls, and other gambling operations on Indian reservations or other tribal land in the United States. Because these areas have tribal sovereignty, states have limited ability to forbid gambling there, as codified by the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988. As of 2011, there were 460 gambling operations run by 240 tribes, with total annual revenue of $27 billion

Source: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_gaming)

Ghislain

DonSweet
04-03-2014, 07:40 PM
And some of those so-called tribes are manufactured out of thin air using strictly legal technicalities.

Not only that, but many are backed by non-Indian commercial interests, the "genetic" Indians slathered in opulence for their cooperation.

crestind
04-05-2014, 06:41 AM
This ayahuasca thing is interesting, but me, I'd probably just ask for the recipe and do it myself under more sanitary conditions lol. God knows what they put in that little pot or what have you and brew up. Might get AIDS or some horrible disease... and yes I know the risk is low... just metaphorical for catching a disease. $2,000 is a pretty penny.

Awani
04-05-2014, 08:16 AM
I'd probably just ask for the recipe and do it myself under more sanitary conditions lol. God knows what they put in that little pot or what have you and brew up. Might get AIDS or some horrible disease...

I think it is more dangerous buying food from your local supermarket. We already know what shit they put in that. Nothing is more sanitary than the rainforest.

I strongly advice against doing it yourself. That is dangerous, both physical and mental!!!

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
04-05-2014, 05:11 PM
This ayahuasca thing is interesting, but me, I'd probably just ask for the recipe and do it myself under more sanitary conditions lol. God knows what they put in that little pot or what have you and brew up. Might get AIDS or some horrible disease... and yes I know the risk is low... just metaphorical for catching a disease. $2,000 is a pretty penny.

Substances pick you. I live 90 miles from Cuba where P. cubensis mushrooms were named. They are native to Florida. Whereas I have seen an enormous Ayahuasca vine/tree in someone's yard in Miami, it is not native to this land. I was given mushrooms packed in 1/2 gallon of Tropicana® Orange Juice when I was in college that came from Florida. That was my Initiation. 16 years later, in 1989, I grew my very first P. cubensis. I have learned, as Terrance McKenna cautioned, not to treat these life-forms cavalierly. On the Winter Solstice, 3 of us had a telepathically identical excursion to the subterranean world where the mushroom truly grows, and it kicked our collective asses! Here is a baby pic of my 1st born.

http://i61.tinypic.com/qnr90m.jpg

If one is not karmically attracted to a particular lineage (I am attracted to Peyote and the Native American Church, but I have no social connection to it), then it might behoove a person to come up with their own 'fungal friends' as a means. The expense is quite minimal and there are a few no-frills, hard-to-fail techniques out there like PF and TEC 9.

ghetto alchemist
04-07-2014, 09:01 PM
I am amazed that with all the talk here on this board that nobody ever mentioned
the dangers of phsychedilics.

Almost everything I know about magic mushrooms has come from 1 man.
He is a close friend of mine and a maori from New Zealand.
His family are considered to be pyschic.
Maori people dont seem to have shamans as such.
But he has told me one form of facial tattoos are worn to signify to others, the ability to see spirits or similar things and that several members of his family are eligible for these tatoos. A kind of shaman class within maoris.

His uncle was one of the pyschics in the family, and encouraged his use of magic mushrooms when he was in his late teenage years and then tried to discourage him when he was in his mid 20ś.
At that time his uncle had explained to him that the phychedelic trips are useful, but associated
with youth, and that eventually should be left behind when a person matures to proper adulthood.

My friend did soon follow his uncles advice, but for different reasons.
You see, he had taught several of his white friends at university how to identify and partake in them. They in turn taught others the same, soon there was a small club of students locating and consuming the mushrooms growing abundantly around the university grounds.

Soon after, a young female student died from heart failure as a result of a mushroom trip.

My friend felt a burden of guilt that, by teaching others, that he had directly caused the young girls death. He immediately ceased the practise and has not touched mushrooms again in over 6 years.

Yes, mushrooms are a magical substance, and can give you so many insights into yourself
and the world around you. But they are not without their dangers, some people never come back.
It is only for this reason that I never tried them, and probably wont.
Believe me, I have been tempted, I would have loved to have booked a seat in Dev´s truffle conference in Holland this year. But unfortunately with me, caution prevails.

Anyway I dont want to push my views on anyone, but rather aim to temper the discussion
with a more careful point of view is all.

Awani
04-07-2014, 10:35 PM
Soon after, a young female student died from heart failure as a result of a mushroom trip.

As with anything knowledge is power. You have to eat your bodyweight in psilocybin mushrooms in order to die. So it is impossible to die from a mushroom trip. It is more dangerous to drink Coca-Cola.

I don't know what mushroom this girl used, but it doesn't sound like the ones I am talking about. Amanita maybe? That is dangerous to eat... instead you let raindeer eat it and you drink the raindeers urine.

Iboga and Ayahuasca can be dangerous if you incorporate alcohol or other drugs into the mix, or certain pharma drugs. If you use care, respect and your head psychedelics are no more dangerous than riding a bike.


and that eventually should be left behind when a person matures to proper adulthood.

I don't agree with this at all. I don't know in what set or setting this uncle had his experiences, but it doesn't sound like a very sound one.

Regardless you bring up an important point, caution is always important, but I would use more caution drinking any of the elixirs the people in this forum makes than taking any natural occurring psychedelic.

I understand the 'fear' you speak of, and ayahuasca for instance can be very scary... BUT once you have gone there you also understand that any fear was unnecessary. In most, if not all, cases of deaths or injuries connected to psychedelics it has happened at the hands of disrespectful, dishonest, negligent, moronic people. IMO.

Btw it's an alchemy congress, not a truffle congress... the truffle part is only a section of the event. ;)

:cool:

Awani
04-07-2014, 10:42 PM
Actually I have to say this again, because I can feel The Machine trying to bring it's iron boot of lies down on our heads:

Natural psychedelics are not dangerous.

Alcohol, cigarettes, pharma drugs, coca-cola, cars and the streets of the USA are dangerous!!!

:)

Even dogmatic science agrees:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h18/deviadah/forum/1200px-HarmCausedByDrugsTablesvg_zps4a4caaac.png
Always good place to go if you want to enhance your knowledge on any psychedelic (incl. first hand experiences): www.erowid.org (http://www.erowid.org)

There are no bad trips, only bad dosage.

Good luck! ;)

:cool:

III
04-08-2014, 12:52 AM
Ayahuasca can be dangerous if you incorporate alcohol or other drugs into the mix, or certain pharma drugs.

Ayahuasca is potentially fatal when taken after eating aged cheeses, aged wines, antihistamines, opioids, dozens of OTC and prescription drugs and dozens of foods. It is because of the 2 part nature of Ayahuasca; DMT and an MAOI. It ends up either putting the blood pressure through the ceiling or through the basement because of the MAOI interaction with all sorts of things. One can look up the food and drug cautions with prescription MAOI drugs and see that there are two kinds; temporary and long lasting. The exact MAOI in any specific recipe and dose and other factors will determine whether a person might die or not if they have consumed these foods or drugs. I was lucky and found out after the fact when I researched it, after my experience.

Amanita mushrooms are dangerous. The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross by John Allegro (a linguist) is a based on a translation of various things in the New Testament in Aramaic and translates it as directions in using these mushrooms, the "Jesus Christ" mushrooms. Allegro wrote the book because it can be translated that way, and says he is not sure about what the truth is. The psilocybin mushrooms don't have toxic drugs in it as the Amanita does.

Awani
04-08-2014, 12:53 AM
True, there is a strict diet you should follow at least a month in advance.

:cool:

III
04-08-2014, 03:59 AM
Relating to the actual question asked establishing this thread, I would be more inclined to call them a tool, a method, rather than a path. I have lots of experience with ALD52 (Sunshine, red and green Christmas acid), LSD, psilocybin mushrooms, mescaline (peyote), DMT, ketamine and once on Ayahuasca (I rather liked it except that somebody on the meds I'm on shouldn't take an MAOI). I am a Tantric Alchemist. I had spontaneous experiences going back to 2 years of age; trance, voyaging, OBE, animal forms, etc and woke up to being a Tantric Alchemist in 3rd grade. At the time of my first psychedelic experience I had been engaging with girls and young ladies (my own age more or less) in trance work since late grade school, about 8 years. Doing Tantric Alchemy is not at all dependent upon psychedelics. It makes the experiences much "brighter?", " louder?" and more intense at first. It skips a lot of preliminaries because all of a sudden instead of doing the years of purification and foundation preparation one is focused on making it through an initiation of death, at high speed, not on evolving ones self to not have blockages to the Light. It was like "coming home" for me. It's very intense and wondrous, then there is a gap from where one is "at" and where one has to be to live in that knowledge and almost all is quickly forgotten. The things turned up in a single session may take a year or 20 to work through. So there is the new old saying "Those who really participated in the 60s don't remember the 60s". That isn't entirely true, but all the "great revelations" are long gone except as the memory of a memory sort of at best unless one changes one's self so as to BE that great secret or revelation or whatever. THAT is at the heart of Alchemy. Most of the things seen with psychedelics, being used for WORK, are too far ahead of where a person actually is, to be useful. Knowing what your block to the "next level" is exactly the information a person needs to retrieve. Knowing the block to the second "level" ahead is generally useful. Seeing something 100 "levels" ahead might be amazing but is rarely useful. There is no context to use it.


In the practice of mystical yoga and mystical Buddhism ones gets a "look ahead" at each level. My Yogi friend calls it a "gift from Mother". Learning to recognize and accept the look ahead, and that can be triggered via shaktipat, is important. One always gets the needed information, if understood.

MarkostheGnostic
04-08-2014, 04:18 AM
The psilocybin mushrooms don't have toxic drugs in it as the Amanita does.

Another stellar reason why I have continued my relationship with Psilocybians for the last 43 years. My liver does not sustain any damage, and apparently my brain has increased its synaptic connections according to recent research. But aside from the extremely important physical benefits (including enhanced immune system and better night vision), the psychological and spiritual benefits would require a virtual thesis on my part.

I will say this. If one reads the experiment mentioned in Deepak Chopra's Ageless Body, Timeless Mind, when older adults are sequestered for weeks, told to use nick names from 30 years earlier, to listen to music they heard when they heard 30 years earlier, and to isolate themselves from news programs and life outside their sequestering. By placing themselves in 'suspended animation' so-to-speak, many of them reversed all manner of psychical and physical symptoms of 'aging.' Similarly, but perhaps more profoundly, psychedelics have in some measure allowed me to log a goodly number of hours of 'flight' from chronological time, and perhaps it impact upon the mind-body. Time spent in timeless states of consciousness have had a youth-retaining effect upon me, and my Soror Mystica as well. This path is no doubt a whole specie of alchemy unto itself.

Ghislain
04-08-2014, 08:40 AM
III I can relate to what you say as I always have a feeling that there is an invisible barrier that I come upon when delving into this other world.

It is a feeling of possibility and yet impossibility at the same time...confusing.

After Ayahuasca ceremonies there is a period of sharing when all participants discuss their journeys. At one of these I could only describe my feelings as a great need to breakthrough.
I later sat and meditated on this after which I cast the I-Ching and it fell on the hexagram 43 - guŕi - Breakthrough. Perhaps a coincidence or maybe a message; I am still none the wiser.

Ghislain

Edit: Is it coincidence that MTG mentions 43 in his post above?

ghetto alchemist
04-08-2014, 12:48 PM
The mushrooms my friend was eating were psilocybin ones.
There is a mention of them here (http://www.mushroomgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6268), probably the same university my friend went to.
Being New Zealand, there arent that many universities anyway.

I neglected to mention in my earlier post that the girl had a pre-existing heart condition,
and it was this condition along with the mushrooms that caused the young womanś death.

The medical literature (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071198/) says thus:


Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocybin (“magic mushrooms”)

Pharmacology

Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocybin are commonly used hallucinogenic agents that are structurally related and have similar physiologic, pharmacologic, and clinical effects. LSD is about 100 times more potent than psilocybin. Their mechanisms of action are complex with various agonist, partial agonist, and antagonist effects at serotonergic, dopaminergic, and adrenergic receptors.2

Clinical effects

The adrenergic effects of these drugs are usually mild and can give rise to general sympathetic arousal leading to dilated pupils, tachycardia, hypertension, and hyperreflexia. Although cardiovascular complications are rarely serious, supraventricular tachyarrhythmias and myocardial infarction have been reported.5 Changes in serotonin-induced platelet aggregation and sympathetically induced arterial vasospasm may have been contributory factors leading to the onset of myocardial infarction.5


Dev, I realise I should leave you in peace on this, I already made my point, and it was never a very
good one to begin with.
You are absolutely right to say that mushrooms are extremely low on the toxicity scale.
The risks to health are indeed negligible.
They are indeed, very safe, especially in comparisom to all other drugs.

Please learn from my friends unfortunate mishap.
Here in Australia before any clinic gives out a dose of Ibogaine, as a precaution, they check
to make sure the recipient has no history of heart trouble.
This simple precaution is wise indeed.

Peace
G Alchemist

Awani
04-08-2014, 06:22 PM
No you are right. If you have a bad heart don't take any strong doses of psychedelics unless you do it with an experienced healer.

:cool:

MarkostheGnostic
04-08-2014, 06:51 PM
I've long maintained that I want to take an entheogenic excursion if I know that death is immanent, but that is a different thing from dying on a trip, unexpectedly. Then there would be all this emergency, ambulance, hospital drama, because my wife probably would not listen to me say, "I'm dying, on a trip, just like I always wanted to." Then again, I'm not ready to die just yet, and I might call 911 myself. I do have a mitral valve prolapse that didn't become symptomatic (palpitations) until 10 years ago when I was 50. It's controlled with Metoprolol®. In the last 10 years I've taken MDMA a couple of times, Ritalin® a few times when it was important to stay up all night, and many entheogenic excursions on P. cubensis. I keep myself under 155 lbs. at 5'9" and keep fit through home gym machines and Yoga. Death is determined genetical and/or karmically, but one does have some control over the quality of one's life until the determined moment of departure.

Eshai
05-28-2014, 04:17 PM
Personally, and this is of course only my opinion, (which I mainly choose to share here so that those on this forum can learn a little bit more about my own perspective, rather than to argue about not using mind altering drugs--as what you do does not directly affect me) I do not see much value being derived from consuming virtually all mind altering drugs.

To quote dev: "Direct experience is the key to understanding anything, IMO."

To preempt: yes, I have had personal experience consuming psychedelics, and other drugs, on several occasions. I have also had the privilege of remaining sober in the presence of others consuming these drugs. While I can philosophize that a drug-induced altered state of mind can allow one to experience a very different perspective of the world (as it did with me when I was under their influence), I never experienced any sort of significant revelation as a result of consumption, nor anything remotely spiritual.

In having the experience of both being under their influence, and being around those who experience them, my view of mind altering drugs is that they transform a thinking, rational person into a slobbering, incoherent husk of a human being. This could be taken literally, if they are actually experiencing an OBE--since their consciousness would have effectively left the "husK" of a body behind--or metaphorically. But everyone is different. Nevertheless, I also recommend that anyone who chooses to indulge in mind altering drugs do so in a safe environment, preferably in the presence of someone not also under their influence in the event important decisions need to be made (such as if the building catches on fire).

Awani
05-28-2014, 06:07 PM
Well it all depends on WHICH psychedelic you used, HOW MUCH you used and in what SETTING.

The difference can be a life-changning visionary event of infinite awe, or a fun slobbering drunk event, and the latter is something I have never ever experienced. Every single psychedelic experience I have had belong in the former category.

Good advice also that you should not do it alone, although the issue that the building might catch on fire should be irrelevant as these things ought to be experienced in nature... but sometimes this is not possible and a building will have to do.

:cool:

Eshai
05-29-2014, 12:55 AM
Indeed, dev. As with all drugs, results may differ for everyone.

As a related side note, a little over a year ago I attempted to induce hallucinations through fasting and isolation. I went into the woods and spent three days alone and in silence, without food or water. This was potentially dangerous, as I went alone and told no one where I was going. My wife had a general idea of where I was, but no specifics. (I suppose this was something like a "vision quest.")

Much to my irritation at the time, I experienced no such hallucinations or interesting revelations. But the time I spent alone in nature in that instance was very different from a camping trip, as I was not burdened by anything. My thoughts were free to wander and focus on the ephemeral, as I spent no time pitching a tent, no time making a camp, no time tending a fire, no time concerning myself with a pack. And best of all, no one was there. So as I look back on it now, I suppose there was a form of revelation that occurred, though it was not immediately evident: that the need for "stuff" is never as great as we tend to think, in this world where we are surrounded by inconsequential objects. Thought is more important, and it is just as real as anything I might hold in my hand. So I can indeed see how altering the mind physically (through the use of drugs, or through deprivation) changes thought, and those experiences stay with you.

Awani
05-29-2014, 01:00 AM
Consider also the difference between hallucination and visions. The former does not interest me, only the latter. Even the word vision is wrong. It is about this reality, and the other realities, both equally real.

:cool:

Eshai
05-29-2014, 11:17 AM
Interesting point. Well, "hallucination" is a word that presupposes what has been experienced is not real, as we collectively understand reality. It is a word that devalues thought alone. I am reminded of the video of Susan Cain posted in the thread "Isolation," where she says something along the lines of,

paraphrasing here: "...this (western culture) was a culture of action. People aspired to be like the brave men who took chances and risks."

So we have a culture that is firmly grounded in what we have empirically determine reality to be. By default, this starts to exclude spiritual and mental experiences as being equally significant to "actual" experiences. I will take some time later to track down the source, but studies have been conducted which consisted of taking brain scans of subjects while they were performing an activity and compared to brain scans of the subjects while they were strictly visualizing performing the activity. The scans were virtually identical, which leads many to consider that the brain, per say, isn't aware of the difference between physical reality and thought alone. Something very minor within the brain makes the distinction.

EDIT: "Even the word vision is wrong."
Perhaps a more logical description would be 'non-physical experience.'

Awani
05-29-2014, 02:24 PM
Well, "hallucination" is a word that presupposes what has been experienced is not real, as we collectively understand reality.

Yes, what is real? My experiences were as real as the reality I am in now... at times even more real.


Perhaps a more logical description would be 'non-physical experience.'

Yes could be a good description, even though a very deep psychedelic experience can also be a very physical one (fever, vomit, diarrhea etc.).

:cool:

Ghislain
05-29-2014, 02:42 PM
Could our "reality" be what our avatars experience?

Because we can collectively agree that a certain state is real does that make it real?

When we are in a dream state we see that as reality, we wake and sometimes it may take a little time to realise it was a dream; why is it that as I am writing this I know I am awake, could it be a rule of this particular illusory state?

Science says that atoms are 99.999...% empty space. So what bit of that atom is actually anything at all and if it is something then what is it?

Perhaps we make this reality what it is with collective consciousness.

Maybe Psychedelics allow us to see alternative realities, but they don't have the solid foundation that the collective consciousness can give them.


Ghislain

Eshai
05-29-2014, 03:22 PM
Science says that atoms are 99.999...% empty space. So what bit of that atom is actually anything at all and if it is something then what is it?

There is the thought that all matter is composed of fluctuations in vacuum space, which implies that everything is actually made up of nothing.

Awani
05-29-2015, 10:04 PM
...which implies that everything is actually made up of nothing.

https://image.ibb.co/j1tX4S/everything_is_nothing_zpsmhbdm8jb.jpg

:cool:

elixirmixer
06-16-2016, 12:01 PM
My view on these substances is similar to the old 'without philosophy, alchemy is just spagyrics' view.

The ancient American Indians (or at least some of them) would hold a 40 day purification ceremony before consuming substances of these nature. In fact, the fast itself it capable of taking the mind to whole new, rarely explored mental states.

DMT is found naturally crystallized on the pineal glad. They have shown that at the moment of a persons death, there is a large release of DMT into the pineal gland.

While substances like DMT and silly-o-ciben may induced trance like states, even powerful ones, how much do we really know about the long term effects?

People who use drugs that release serotonin in the brain, usually end up with issues in producing it themselves. End up with bipolar and depression from over exposure.

Sure DMT and other hallucinogens feel great and give us amazing experience's. But 30 years ago they were saying the same stuff about heroine.

I worry about the 'death' experience. Could this be jeopardised by having consumed all the nesscessary DMT crystals during your 'life'?

Don't get me wrong. I've only had DMT twice in one day, and I will not be saying no to trying it again the next time opertunity permits... but just asking some serious questions....

My friend always talks about the sacredness of magic. M's. Then she sits there and stuff's herself with 500 of the little guys. And let's just say, they do take their toll.

Awani
06-16-2016, 01:27 PM
I moved your post to this thread as it fits better.


...how much do we really know about the long term effects? ... End up with bipolar and depression from over exposure.

I would more say that psychedelics cure depression than cause it.


But 30 years ago they were saying the same stuff about heroine.

They said the same stuff about Radio. On a side-note there is nothing unhealthy with heroin. If you have the money and use clean needles you might in fact live longer than normal people (the problem with heroin is poverty and dirty needles and bad quality). I have never tried heroin personally and have no interest in it. Just saying.


I worry about the 'death' experience. Could this be jeopardised by having consumed all the nesscessary DMT crystals during your 'life'.

It is impossible to know, but generally psychedelics help the individual face death and in fact many who have terminal illness use psychedelics to take away their fear of death. One of the best things you can experience on psychedelics is the "death experience" where you actually die (or think you do). I have suffered through such an experience on more than one occasion and they are what you really want.


My friend always talks about the sacredness of magic. M's. Then she sits there and stuff's herself with 500 of the little guys. And let's just say, they do take their toll.

I can't speak for your friend. But anything can be abused. Like Paracelsus says "the poison is the dosage". I think usually any negative effects or abusive behaviour in connection with psychedelics are exclusivley due to the fact that the user ignore basic shamanic practices. These are the most important to keep in mind when doing psychedelics if you want the full benefit of them. IMO.

https://preview.ibb.co/jvG24S/13403923_10208833452987868_4946136968224706977_o_z psdgwxrqfu.jpg

:cool:

Luxus
05-08-2018, 11:16 PM
To be honest I am not all that interested in psychedelics other then perhaps DMT. Much of what is seen when taking psychedelics is simply not real...and if its not real I'm not interested in it.

On a similar note last month I was thinking about prophecy, the ability to see the future via meditation etc. If this is real, If this is real how could we explain the brain/mind machinery within a human being able to see something that has not yet happened. Added to this some yogi claim to see events that occurred in the deep mists of time. Thinking about this I thought there can only be two possibilitys

1 the brain can create micro warps in space and the viewer can focus their mind within these micro warps and view scenes from a different time.

2 the mind or conciousness in an energy independent of space and thus independent of time. Being independent of space/time means instantaneous travel anywhere at any time.

Thinking about this further I thought that time travel in the future might actually be done by people sitting in a room with their heads linked up to some brain augmentation technology. They would send their conciousness into the future rather then their body. Time travel then would be something that happens on a psychic level rather then a physical.

Perhaps truly advanced civilisations would explore space with techno-psychic augmentation rather then using spaceships to send their physical bodies there and risk death.

Awani
05-08-2018, 11:19 PM
To be honest I am not all that interested in psychedelics other then perhaps DMT.

LOL. That is a major paradox.


Much of what is seen when taking psychedelics is simply not real...and if its not real I'm not interested in it.

LOL. That is funny to me.

-------------------------------

However my post was not really about psychedelics... that was just the way in to the "model".

:p

Luxus
05-08-2018, 11:32 PM
LOL. That is a major paradox.



LOL. That is funny to me.

-------------------------------

However my post was not really about psychedelics... that was just the way in to the "model".

:p

Well I suspect that the trip induced by most of these drugs is the body reacting to a poison, its a toxic reaction. I think DMT might be different as it is produced naturally within the brain. Perhaps it can boost the brain. I say perhaps and maybe because if this stuff really can boost the psychic function then I would expect somebody to bring back something useful.
I have the same problem with people who say they have past life recall of living on another planet or Atlantis. Some of these people claim to have been engineers in these previous lives and yet when asked to reproduce even partially some to this technology they just brain fart and say oh crystals, we used crystals...dorks !

About many trips clearly not being real this should be self evident if you have a trip in which you are being chased by flying hammers only to be saved by a talking dog....and yeah if its not real I'm not interested!

Awani
05-08-2018, 11:49 PM
Have you done any psychedelics and if so what kind and in what way?

Flying hammers? Talking dogs? That sounds like the most boring trip I ever heard. Anyone with any proper direct experience would not even consider such examples I don't think, since they make zero sense.

Your claim that if it is not real you are not interested is funny, because I would bet that if you had a proper psychedelic experience it would become the most real thing you ever experienced.

You should eat 30 spoons of Iboga (not ibogaine). Just make sure you are in a safe space for the next week. I look forward to hearing about the dancing pink rabbits. LOL.

:p

Luxus
05-09-2018, 12:03 AM
The only time I had psychedelics was unwillingly when I was in my late teens someone spiked my drink.

You cant tell me that you believe every trip you have ever had was real.

It is the same with dreams. Some dreams I have are totally stupid and I know they are clearly not real but then every so often I will have a dream in which I will be told or shown something useful. Last night for example I met this guy who was showing me how the ground plan of a building in the Vatican related to the human body. When I woke I did an internet image search for ground plans for buildings in the Vatican and found the image,

Awani
05-09-2018, 12:15 AM
You won't understand my reply because your question is off.

:p

Luxus
05-09-2018, 12:40 AM
You won't understand my reply because your question is off.

:p

My question is not off, clearly you know some trips you have had in which you have seen stupid stuff which you must know was purely your brain generating nonsense ie it had no basis in reality in the same way a stupid dream upon waking clearly has no basis in reality. If I dream that I was at a party with some celebrity upon waking I clearly know that dream has no basis in reality, it was just my brain making up nonsense. In the same way you must after experiencing a trip understood that it had no reality behind it. Are you seriously telling me that you believe everything you see in your trips is real?

Awani
05-09-2018, 07:04 AM
Like I said your question is off to me.

1. What is real?

2. A trip is not about what is real, or not real. You clearly have no idea what you think it is. I prefer the term "journey" more than trip, because that word explain it better.

3. The experience is real. If the things you see or do not see is "real" is irrelevant.

4. But yet some things are hyper real.

5. The biggest nonsense I have experienced when doing a psychedelics is the next day walking into society.

:p

Florius Frammel
05-09-2018, 07:45 AM
This discussion reminds me of this:

https://pm1.narvii.com/6153/70dcf48754788117e57cddbb9dee7c0cdc4b1e7e_hq.jpg

Andro
05-09-2018, 07:52 AM
This discussion reminds me of this:

Sounds pretty much what Awani is saying (in his own words):


Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

Awani
05-09-2018, 07:56 AM
https://www.fwhibbit.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/DirectConfusedGuineafowl-small.gif

:p

Andro
05-09-2018, 07:59 AM
The biggest nonsense I have experienced when doing a psychedelics is the next day walking into society.

Welcome to my every day life, minus the psychedelics :)

zoas23
05-09-2018, 08:23 AM
My life is already too psychedelics as to add psychedelics.

Other than that, ANYTHING can be a path... psychedelics, mountain climbing, yoga, music, plastic arts, whatever... not everything will do the trick for everyone, psychedelics doesn't do it for me.

You may enjoy having a Dream Machine, Awani... they are special. Also a bit confusing when you turn it off.

Kibric
05-09-2018, 08:27 AM
1. What is real?
Its essentially this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMOYGCbNxpk

Luxus
05-09-2018, 10:15 AM
You know what the word hallucination means right, well what I am saying is I have no interest in taking stuff that will make me hallucinate....it has to be real or I am not interested! I am not saying none of it is real but I am saying it is not all real and perhaps some psychedelics produce nothing but hallucinations.

I am a believer in the Celtic other world which exists in another dimension of this Earth. What is interesting about that phenomena is that all the journeys described in ancient Irish literature all describe it in a similar way. Everyone who goes there comes back and says the same stuff.

In contrast to this why is it all these people who take Ayahuasca in the jungle say they experienced this other world but describe it totally different, that is somewhat disappointing. I would hope that if I sent ten people into a bar to have a drink when I would ask them afterwards to describe that bar I would hope their descriptions would match.

Awani
05-09-2018, 11:57 AM
Actually if you study the topic closely you will find that the so-called other world has more similarities than not amongst initates, as well as the beings that reside there. They even have "names". There are maps built. In fact the most astonishing thing is that if, for example you go there and someone is constructing an object... when you return a few months later the object is finished. There is a continuity.

This stuff is not hallucinations. To call them that would be a total diservice. I have had fever and suffered hallucinations. I know the difference.

Here is an allegory: Imagine answering a phone call. The actual voice travelling through the air is invisible. It is not there. No one can see it. Yet there is a voice there, inside the phone somehow. How is that possible? Because that voice belongs to a person that lives somewhere else.

Again you totally fail to comprehend what I am saying, which is fine. I don't expect someone who has never had an orgasm to even understand how it feels. Lanuage is simply not enough for certain topics.

The great think with all this is that: why don't you take a heroic dose in silent darkness?

At least then we can discuss it logically, because as it is now you simply do not comprehend the psychedelic experience (based on your posts). Let's remain with the orgasm allegory, because it is easily understandable. Imagine it like this:

Holding hands = visions (or what you incorrectly call hallucinations)
Meeting + flirting + dating + holding hands + kissing + foreplay + fucking + orgasm + cuddle afterwards = psychedelic experience

If you fall in love, date, have sex and orgasm and you come to me to explain that you had this wonderful experience... ask yourself how you would react if I then said: you have been holding hands, that's it

hallucination: an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present
vision: the faculty or state of being able to see

There is a major difference in the above. A psychedelic journey is a visionary journey, a shamanic practice is a visionary practice... it is not hallucinatory.


...it has to be real or I am not interested...

The only reason I bother with this discussion is this phrase you keep uttering, because I find it amusing on so many levels.

-------------------------------------------

Those Celtic other world myth probably comes from people tripping back in the day. No doubt. ;)

:p

Awani
05-09-2018, 12:09 PM
...not everything will do the trick for everyone, psychedelics doesn't do it for me.

If you ever visit my house I already got the rope, the handcuffs and a pipe loaded with DMT. ;)


You may enjoy having a Dream Machine, Awani... they are special. Also a bit confusing when you turn it off.

One day I will look into it. Right now I am on the greatest drug that was ever created: complete unconditional love for another

I recall when I was younger and some parents told me: "you'll understand when you have a baby"

I always thought those people were full of shit. I also thougth you saw flying hammers and pink rabbits when you took psychedelics. Naturally I thought hippies were full of shit. People who had conversed with angels or gods. Totally full of shit. If there is one thing I have learned. If there is one wisdom that is greater than any other, it is this:

Unless you have had a direct experience you (in my case "I") do not know shit... so shut the fuck up. LOL.

...and even if two people have the same experience, they will still have different experiences... we should live in a world of total silence...

:p

Luxus
05-09-2018, 04:09 PM
The only reason I bother with this discussion is this phrase you keep uttering, because I find it amusing on so many levels.

-------------------------------------------

Those Celtic other world myth probably comes from people tripping back in the day. No doubt. ;)

:p

The only problem with that theory is that we have searched for this psychadelic substance and have not been able to find it, no such substance has been found growing in Ireland. Some have suggested fly Agaric but the Celts say in their writings the fruit (often described as being red) that produces these visions grows in the other world. That otherworldly tree whose fruits produces visions is the tree of life. That tree of life (and its visionary fruits) are to be found within you. So what I am saying is that the method used by the Celts to visit the other world was yogic.

Awani
05-09-2018, 05:29 PM
Neither you nor I will never know what they used. But I have never hung out with so many leprechauns as I have when smoking DMT, but I have never visited Ireland so I don't know what abundance there is of them over there.

Also why are you so intereted in it? I mean if it is indeed yogic, then it is just fantasy in the brain = not real.

:p

Luxus
05-09-2018, 07:24 PM
Also why are you so intereted in it? I mean if it is indeed yogic, then it is just fantasy in the brain = not real.

:p

Well those are my ancestors so recovering the spiritual practices of my ancestors is important to me and I think it is important for all north Europeans in general because I would say all north Europeans had similar practices and beliefs.

Awani
05-09-2018, 09:59 PM
I agree. And in Northern Europe the major spiritual practice is Amanita Muscaria. ;)

:p

zoas23
05-09-2018, 11:23 PM
If you ever visit my house I already got the rope, the handcuffs and a pipe loaded with DMT. ;)

I have to visit all my friends in sweden some day. Just don't make me eat any animal or meat whilst I am captive & bound.


One day I will look into it. Right now I am on the greatest drug that was ever created: complete unconditional love for another

I recall when I was younger and some parents told me: "you'll understand when you have a baby" (...)

Hahahaha.... but that's quite unrelated Awani, your daughter is beautiful and cute and funny... but it's like saying "Flipper reunited and released a new album" -"Oh, but I have a daughter".

One thing does not exclude the other.

AND actually your daughter may enjoy it too, because unlike chemicals, it is simply a flickering light. I saw some 4 kids (some 6 years old each) playing with my Dream Machine at an exhibition... they wanted their fathers to get one for them. I do remember one of them who was specially fascinated and told me: "I have just seen that there is no Santa, it's a duck". I asked how he arrived to such idea, he said "I just saw it!".

So it can be a nice father & daughter experience actually.

Awani
05-10-2018, 12:31 AM
"Flipper reunited and released a new album".

You made me google that, you lying bastard.

:p

zoas23
05-10-2018, 02:39 AM
You made me google that, you lying bastard.

:p

Hahahaha.... it was a metaphor, but it empirically demonstrates my point.

"Life is the only thing worth living for"

Dragon's Tail
05-10-2018, 04:00 AM
Is artificial psychedelics the only form we are discussing here? Hallucination by "the natural path" can be brought on without drugs, through meditation, or if you want the quick and dirty version just skip sleep and food for about 3 days.

Kibric
05-10-2018, 07:37 AM
masters of the outer darkness,...they always say that


I mean if it is indeed yogic, then it is just fantasy in the brain = not real.
No yogic practises don't bring about hallucinations from the subconscious.
As it is you only process about 3% of information from the universe and your brain builds a picture for you.
A very incomplete picture.

Fear induced hallucinations can manifest a strange number of physical phenomenon.
The link between what we believe and think and the physical reality we experience is a profound one

Dragon's Tail
05-10-2018, 11:34 AM
As it is you only process about 3% of information from the universe and your brain builds a picture for you.
A very incomplete picture.


Examples work better than percentages, I have no idea where you got this number or what it's supposed to mean...but...
We can see certain wavelengths of the EM spectrum from ~400nm to ~700nm, that's out of the whole thing, which stretches from 0 to infinity (well, 0 to gamma anyway). We can also sense heat through touch, but that's still a narrow band.

Most people can detect audio signals from around 20Hz - 30,000Hz. We can sense lower vibrations, but we're limited on maximum pitch.

Smell and taste depend on the person, but compared to other animals, our limitations have been noted.

Kibric
05-10-2018, 12:06 PM
Examples work better than percentages, I have no idea where you got this number or what it's supposed to mean...but...
It means your brain can only build a incomplete picture of the universe around you from limited sensory information.

Awani
05-10-2018, 10:14 PM
Is artificial psychedelics the only form we are discussing here? Hallucination by "the natural path" can be brought on without drugs, through meditation, or if you want the quick and dirty version just skip sleep and food for about 3 days.

Yes, if it is hallucinations you are after. However I personally don't view those as part of the psychedelic experience at all.


This stuff is not hallucinations. To call them that would be a total diservice. I have had fever and suffered hallucinations. I know the difference.

hallucination: an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present
vision: the faculty or state of being able to see

:p

Awani
05-11-2018, 12:10 AM
Probably the best way to explain it, was said by Terence (who else).

The mind is a multidimensional manifold of some sort, but it takes the shape of its vessel in the same way that a liquid takes the shape of its vessel. And when you take a psychedelic in silent darkness, where there is no extraneous parameters forcing themselves in upon you, the mind unfolds itself. Put through the crucible of the psychedelic experience the mind becomes fluid and then is recast in a higher dimensional manifold. - Terence McKenna

:p

Loki Morningstar
05-12-2018, 04:29 PM
I believe you could both be right regarding hallucination/psychedelic experience. I’ll start by quoting Jung 'Alchemy and Psychology’, explain what this means to me, how I feel this relates to the Terence McKenna quote, and how this all relates to the matter at hand. I hope you enjoy.



The imaginato, as the alchemists understand it, is in truth a key that opens the door to the secret of the opus. We now know that it was a question of representing and realising those "greater' things which the soul, on God's behalf, imagines creatively and extra naturam - or to put it in modern language, a question of actualising those contents of the unconscious* which are outside nature, i.e. not a datum of our empirical world, and therefore an a priori of archetypal character. The place or medium of realisation is neither mind nor matter, but that intermediate realm of subtle reality which can be adequately only expressed by the symbol. The symbol is neither real nor unreal. It is always both.

*All "our secrets" are formed from an "image" (imago), says Ripley (Opera amnia chemica).


We might say the fact that ‘a circle is a line draw equidistantly around a point’ always existed and always will; forgetting that this is written in words, a human “invention” used to symbolise something. Potentially it was always possible to create a shape via a line being draw equidistantly around a point. Plato might have said the circle exists in the Realm of Forms and was not created but discovered. We could see the unconcious/realm of forms as an infinite collection of all possible data combinations.

So to simplify and make concise, from the above Jung quote we could say:

The great work is to use the imagination to make real the contents of the unconscious; realm of forms, things with potential to exist yet do not currently.



The mind is a multidimensional manifold of some sort, but it takes the shape of its vessel in the same way that a liquid takes the shape of its vessel. And when you take a psychedelic in silent darkness, where there is no extraneous parameters forcing themselves in upon you, the mind unfolds itself. Put through the crucible of the psychedelic experience the mind becomes fluid and then is recast in a higher dimensional manifold. - Terence McKenna

To explain what I feel T. McKenna is saying it might be helpful to explain my theories of truth and mind.

Truth is probability, what is most probable to be true is truth until further evidence arises.

Current evidence states ‘mind’ is the product of a complex pattern of neural networks with the capacity to intake, store, and recall data; and the capacity for awareness, a memory feedback loop. One might also say that the data contained is also mind. I feel what Jung states above is that mind is neither immaterial nor matter, is neither real nor unreal, It is always both. Data cannot exist as mind without a vessel to hold it, yet vessel is not mind without data to fill it.

This is why the mind takes the shape of the vessel (nervous system/body). We might say, summarising all the above, mind is a portion of data collected from the Realm of Forms, and stored in a vessel with the mechanical ability to store and process it. The issue being is that due to our self image; formed in and affected by our nervous system and body, our culture, society, our beliefs, etc; the data collected, which forms the mind, is collected through the filter/lens of self.

Psychedelic firm studies seem to evidence that a biochemical process allows connections to form between brain regions that don't usually connect. ‘The mind unfolds itself’, it ‘becomes fluid and then is recast’. People state from experiential evidence psychedelics allows for temporary destruction of ego/self image. I think they remove the filter and hinderance of the ego/self image, allowing our natural pattern recognition abilities, unhindered by past beliefs, to evolve previously collected data in the brain. A bit like the defragmentation of a hard drive, allowing extra space for better software, thereby allowing one to process much higher level data. One’s awareness slips under the veil, and enters the infinite Realm of Forms, yet also, never really leaves the confines of one's own mind. As above so below, know thyself and you shall know the universe and everything. Both hallucination and something more; perhaps neural patterns harmonise/syncronise with the sacred data stream of the Universe/Unconcious/Realm of Forms.

With experience of both, I believe, whatever it that is, can be done with both meditation or hallucinogens. Mind altering consumables can only trigger receptors in the brain which were already there. DMT is naturally produced by the body and believed to be what allows for dreams, hallucinations during sleep deprivation, imagination, etc. Personally, having experience of both I now prefer meditation/lucid dreaming, I find it easier this way to recall useful information when returning from beyond the veil. In my very humble opinion the medicine is only meant as a teacher, not a long term solution. Though I do suppose it is all a matter of personal preference.

I could go into further detail (perhaps all is just data; as in Descartes brain in a jar), though this has already taken me 2 hours of tinkering and I must go shopping now.

Hope it was an enjoyable read. Looking forward to reading any replies.

Ghislain
05-13-2018, 10:08 AM
Loki, that was a great read, thanks.

What you have talked about in your post above is in the physical realm, brain, neurons, nerves etc...

Have you considered that the "mind" may not be within the body at all, but just a data accessed from a stream elsewhere?
Similar to a computer having an operating system, but can access data from many sources, and today can store it in "the cloud".
A computer, for instance, is not the internet, does not contain the internet and yet has access to it.

You may find Rupert Sheldrake's talk on, Memory, Morphic Resonance and the Collective Unconscious (https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/memory-morphic-resonance-and-the-collective-unconscious) interesting.

Ghislain

Awani
05-13-2018, 05:16 PM
Current evidence states ‘mind’ [can]... store and recall data...

I need to stop you right there Mister. :)

There is 0 % evidence for this as far as I am aware, but there are plenty of theories and models.


I believe you could both be right regarding hallucination/psychedelic experience.

If I am not right then something is wrong. :cool:


Data cannot exist as mind without a vessel to hold it, yet vessel is not mind without data to fill it.

I have thousands of songs on my laptop and in my phone, yet it does not take up any space. Why? Because they are all in the cloud. ;)


Mind altering consumables can only trigger receptors in the brain which were already there.

Not sure what you mean regarding "already there"?


I think they remove the filter and hinderance of the ego/self image, allowing our natural pattern recognition abilities, unhindered by past beliefs, to evolve previously collected data in the brain.

In alchemy there is, at times, talk about destroying or burning the ego and I know zoas23 has some issues with this... and I agree with what you say here... however I think it is way more grand than what you say.

It is not about burning or killing or removing the ego. Here is an example.

Awani has an iPhone6.

The iPhone6 thinks it is really cool. It has a lot of ego. It thinks it has the best updates in store, it thinks it has the best color (black) and it also thinks that #5 and even #10 are phones not worthy to wipe his shoes... yes iPhone6 has a lot of ego. It is also aware of itself. It knows what it is. What it wants. And what it feels.

BUT...

It is Awani's iPhone6, and Awani can throw it in the bin at any moment when he feels like it, because the iPhone6 is just a piece of materialistic garbage that is temporarily usable.


...hallucinogens...

Also in genereal I really dislike the term hallucination/hallucinogens. I want to repeat my position that to call these substances hallucinatory is kind of derogatory IMO.


...not a long term solution...

There is no such thing as solution or closure... nor truth... and the sooner a human being accepts this, the sooner progress can be made.

This post has been written with facts that stem from the offices of Awani's "mind", and all authority begins and ends there... from Awani's perspective that is.

:p

Luxus
05-13-2018, 05:20 PM
One thing that I dont think has been pointed out is that a drug addict could never be someone who could say they are on the path to self mastery, addiction and self mastery are clearly contrary to each other. Regularly taking drugs will also alter brain chemistry and therefore brain function. Would this altered brain function be positive or negative, closer to enlightenment or further away? Taking drugs regularly even if your motive is spiritual growth can take you dangerously close to drug addiction.

Awani
05-13-2018, 06:21 PM
One thing that I dont think has been pointed out is that a drug addict could never be someone who could say they are on the path to self mastery, addiction and self mastery are clearly contrary to each other.

It has not been pointed out because it is not something to point out at all.

I don't know about other people but I need about 6 months up to 18 months to intergrate and process a psychedelic ceremony, so not sure what you mean by regular? The closest interval I have had in the last few years was recently when I tried LSD in October 2017 and then again in April 2018... the only reason I did it again was because I was trying to "learn" how to work with LSD + made a few mistakes the first time around. I also wanted to investigate if it is a worthy "teacher". For me it is not. Too much "party" vibe... so I am going to continue my "regular" use of DMT (think about a year ago since last time), my "regular use of Ayahuasca (soon four years ago) and my regular use of Iboga (six years ago). Oh and my regular use of "shrooms", which is about two years ago now I think.

I estimate I do a psycehdelic ritual on average every 10-14 months or so. I know... just can't stop... only 8 months left to score my next fix... oh the stress...

I think it was Terence McKenna who said that if you smoke DMT more than twice a year you are a heavy user...

I said before that hallucinogens is derogatory when discussing psychedelics (in my opinon), it is the same with the words "drug" and "addict". Exceptions always exist, but from my experience those that use psychedelics are usually LESS addicted + use LESS "drugs" than average joe. In fact psychedelics are known to cure addiction, and one reason why "they" want to keep it illegal. Big Pharma is not interested in cures. They only want alleviation of symptoms.

On the flip side the "shamans" in Peru I have met drink Ayahuasca a few nights a week all year round and they are doing just fine. They even give it to new born babies (only a drop, but still). That is why I think ritual, ceremony and tradition is VERY important... and why I try to use psycehdelics in a shamanic setting. I am totally against the Western way of doing business, and I would rather go to the dentist than drop acid and go to a dance party. Sounds like a wasted opportunity in my opinion. But that is just how I roll.

To clarify: in my case I'm afraid every time... and I need at least a few weeks (or even months) to prepare mentally... I don't think a drug addict is afraid to take the drug of choice, and prolongs the moment of intake? I have been addicted to things, like Coca-Cola... and I recall that if more than 2 minutes passed before I got my can in the morning... well don't even speak to me. ;)

I don't drink alcohol (stopped 20 years ago out of boredom) and I do not smoke weed (last time I had a joint was in October 2017... and before that summer of 2016 and so on). Very rare these days. Don't smoke either.

I masturbate almost daily and I eat food almost daily. Also still too much sugar than what I would like.

“...a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have NOT taken it.” - Timothy Leary

:p

Awani
05-13-2018, 09:20 PM
There is one aspect here, a "point", that I do think is essential regarding the "natural" vs. "psychedelic" path and that is the following...

Unless an individual is of such a high mental level that he or she can 100 % detach from the ego, self, self awareness, memories, individuality and body *... and at the same time look at all those things with a "new" perspective, totally liberated from any aspect of the self... to achieve an omnipotent and "birds-eye" evaluation of ones own life... a life review embodied as Thoth himself... if such an individual can do these things by some sort of meditation ALONE... then yes, sure... you can do either or...

If a person cannot make such a detachment on their own, then certainly NO... you cannot "do it" without help... and of course I cannot speak for any direct experience anyone else is having, but I find it more probable that you can learn levitation than such a level of "detachment"... and such a level of "seeing"... the mind is so powerful that it is almost an impossible feat to be able to consciously evaluate and inspect something, without becoming entangled in the thing being inspected.

This aspect of detaching from the self is probably the most vital and earth shattering, and the most beneficial, part of any psychedelic ceremony in complete darkness + heroic dose. It is also the reason why, for me, it is also utterly terrifying. But ultimately the greatest grace one can experience this side of the grave. In my humble opinion.

:p

* not out of body in the traditional sense, because as far as I understand you are still the "traveller", but without a body... I mean out of ALL bodies...

Kibric
05-13-2018, 09:22 PM
One thing that I dont think has been pointed out is that a drug addict could never be someone who could say they are on the path to self mastery,
What do you consider a drug ?
In Hinduism there is the Atharva Veda where cannabis is one of the 5 sacred plants.
In the begins of Taoism cannabis was used by priests.
Muslims call it kannab a holy medicine.
Magic mushrooms have long been used for spiritual self mastery in many cultures.
the coca leaf is sacred plant to the Andean people.
Opium was used by Egyptian priests.
Minoan Poppy Goddess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy_goddess

Robert Graves believed that a second meaning of the depiction and use of poppies in the Greco-Roman myths is the symbolism of the bright scarlet colour as signifying the promise of resurrection after death caught my eye alchemically

Francis Crick the discoverer of DNA used LSD.
Technically anything that can alter your brain chemistry can become a drug, base jumping, sex, food, exercise, video games.

addiction and self mastery are clearly contrary to each other.
what do you consider self mastery ? without addiction how can there be any ?.

Taking drugs regularly even if your motive is spiritual growth can take you dangerously close to drug addiction.
what we think are "drugs" aren't drugs to others
and what we consider addiction isn't addiction to others.

Is psychedelics a valid path?
Definitely. So much so that we are just learning how much psychedelics played a part in the evolution of our brain.

to achieve an omnipotent and "birds-eye" evaluation of ones own life... a life review embodied as Thoth himself.if such an individual can do these things by some sort of meditation ALONE... then yes, sure... you can do either or...

In Egypt, the use of opium was generally restricted to priests, magicians, and warriors, its invention is credited to Thoth, and it was said to have been given by Isis to Ra as treatment for a headache
I'll doubt he'll mind either way :D

Wait... what gods get headaches ?......

Awani
05-13-2018, 09:29 PM
Wait... what gods get headaches ?......

The ones who create humans.

:p

Luxus
05-13-2018, 10:36 PM
It has not been pointed out because it is not something to point out at all.



So people cant get addicted to taking acid, do you consider acid as a psychedelic?

Awani
05-13-2018, 10:40 PM
So people cant get addicted to taking acid, do you consider acid as a psychedelic?

If someone does acid or ayahuasca or any other psychedelic EVERY day like an addict, they should get an award. You seemed to ignore the meat of what I wrote... and it seems you want to be anal about it (as in tight like the sphincter).

Some fathers rape their daughters, doesn't suggest men should not be fathers.

:p

Luxus
05-13-2018, 11:13 PM
What do you consider a drug ?
In Hinduism there is the Atharva Veda where cannabis is one of the 5 sacred plants.
In the begins of Taoism cannabis was used by priests.
Muslims call it kannab a holy medicine.
Magic mushrooms have long been used for spiritual self mastery in many cultures.
the coca leaf is sacred plant to the Andean people.
Opium was used by Egyptian priests.
Minoan Poppy Goddess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppy_goddess
caught my eye alchemically

Francis Crick the discoverer of DNA used LSD.
Technically anything that can alter your brain chemistry can become a drug, base jumping, sex, food, exercise, video games.

what do you consider self mastery ? without addiction how can there be any ?.

what we think are "drugs" aren't drugs to others
and what we consider addiction isn't addiction to others.

Definitely. So much so that we are just learning how much psychedelics played a part in the evolution of our brain.


I'll doubt he'll mind either way :D

Wait... what gods get headaches ?......

Well when people talk about drugs in this context they really mean the purposeful taking of substances which cause changes in brain chemistry. Some people say alcohol is a drug but I class it as a poison. Go into a lab and you will see a skeleton cross on a bottle of alcohol so basically bars are selling different flavoured poisons at different concentrations.

Yes I know some yogi smoke pot, particularly the ones who follow Shiva because they say he was a pot smoker.

Soma the divine substance which illuminates the mind of the gods and aryans in the veda comes from a "celestial herb" (the brain) it comes to the gods via the golden Garuda bird (air). It is also closely related to the vedic twin Ashvins (eyes) and the Sun (Surya). When Soma was lost a substitute was searched for.

I think when we look at the ancient mythology of the west and see things like the mead of poetry or the fruits that when eaten bring us to the other world we are mistaken if we equate them with psychedelics. I have looked into this very closely myself and I can tell you that when the celts talk about eating a fruit which grows on a tree in the other world they are not talking about psychedelic mushrooms.

Your brain is the leafless tree that grows in the other world !

https://preview.ibb.co/fQh9rJ/girl_reading_book_under_a_brain_tree.jpg

Awani
05-13-2018, 11:58 PM
I have looked into this very closely myself...


The only time I had psychedelics was unwillingly when I was in my late teens someone spiked my drink.

May I suggest you look closer before making up your mind?

:p

Luxus
05-14-2018, 12:31 AM
Do psychedelics stop or slow the ageing process? Soma does!

Do psychedelics lead to the acquisition of siddhi? Soma does!

I have see all these colours/lights myself but did not use any psychedelics to cause these.

Kibric
05-14-2018, 01:57 AM
Do psychedelics stop or slow the ageing process? Soma does!
There are some plants when ingested that do and have a psychoactive compound

Do psychedelics lead to the acquisition of siddhi? Soma does!
In some obscure paths of Yoga etc, but they use local plants which side effect are psychedelic.

There is a debate whether Soma is produced from the brain and hypothalamus (divine nectar) or from a mushroom or an unknown plant.

The craftsmanship and the story unfolding on the threadbare fabric are truly amazing. Embroidered in woollen thread on the thin cloth is a procession of Zoroastrian warriors marching towards an altar; one of them, standing at the altar, is holding a mushroom in his hands.

A distinguishing feature of this embroidery is that the craftsmen did their best to depict the faces, costume, arms, plants, and insects, trying to copy everything from life. According to the mycologist I.A. Gorbunova (Candidate of Biology, senior researcher with the Inferior Plant Laboratory, Central Siberian Botanical Garden, SB RAS), the mushroom depicted on the carpet belongs to the Strophariaceae family. In some ways—the general habitus, shape of the cap, stitches along the edge of the cap reminding of the radial folding or remnants of the partial veil and dark inclusions on the stipe that can remind of a paleaceous ring, which blackens after the spores are puffed—it is similar to Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer [Stropharia cubensis Earle]. Some of the mushrooms of the genus Stropharia cubensis, or Psilocybe cubensis, contain psilocybin—a unique stimulator of the nervous system. In their psychoactive properties, psilocybin mushrooms are much more befitting as vegetative equivalents of Soma, or Hoama, than fly agaric, which was identified with Soma in the Rigveda by R.G. Wasson in his well-known book. His point of view was supported by many famous scientists; the psychedelic theory proposed by T. McKenna even assigns the main role in human evolution to psilocybin-containing mushrooms.

For the first time, we can see vivid evidence, embroidered on an ancient cloth discovered by archaeological excavations, for the use of mushrooms for religious purposes, probably, to make Haoma, a “sacred drink.”
http://internationaltimes.it/we-drank-soma-we-became-immortal/

I guess the fundamental disagreement i have is that any mythological substance, apple, oil, salt , etc
must of had an origin that man could of touched smelled tasted before it was associated with other non physical realms.
We can see this is evident by the famous Sumerian "Old Men Become Young." plant that has a particular shape ( its on my avatar )
If no one had ever seen it or cultivated it how could they depict its shape ?

Luxus
05-14-2018, 10:12 AM
You posted a larger image of your avatar:

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/es555de04d.jpg

Which component in your avatar are you saying is the old man has become young plant. I searched and did not see any documents stating that a depiction of the plant of the Gilgamesh story had been discovered.




------------------------------------------------------------------------

Awani
05-14-2018, 12:09 PM
Do psychedelics stop or slow the ageing process? Soma does!

Soma is clearly a psychedelic. And people do look younger, and retain a glow, after a psycehdelic ceremony. People who are happy tend to live longer as well. However it is another debate entirely but from my pesrpective I do not think the purpose of any mystical art is to prolong the life in this physical body. That sounds dumb.


Do psychedelics lead to the acquisition of siddhi?

Yes.


I have see all these colours/lights myself but did not use any psychedelics to cause these.

If you have not done psychedelics properly then how can you compare/know?

:p

Loki Morningstar
05-29-2018, 02:33 PM
Hi Ghislain,

Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for your reply. Sorry I took a while, been really busy writing a lab report for uni.


What you have talked about in your post above is in the physical realm, brain, neurons, nerves etc...

I talk mainly in physical terms as materialism seems the only way to evidence something to another.


Have you considered that the "mind" may not be within the body at all, but just a data accessed from a stream elsewhere?

Yes, I was attempting to get at this when I said:

"mind is a portion of data collected from the Realm of Forms"

...and...

"perhaps neural patterns harmonise/synchronise with the sacred data stream of the Universe/Unconscious/Realm of Forms."

Your analogy seems a good way to look at it.

Using your analogy:

The-Cloud:
Stores ALL potential data; data is static, cannot be edited or change as this would just duplicate data.

The-Computer:
Views and stores data from The-Cloud. Data can be "edited" and appears to "change"; though this is illusory, as with streaming a film, the whole film is on the cloud, yet we only see one part at a time. Has limited memory capacity; perhaps explaining why one seems to loose so much when coming back from a trip.

The Computer travels The Cloud, yet never really leaves the desk.

As for Rupert Sheldrake, blew me away. I am a little confused by his criticism of Chomsky and Universal Grammar. Though I do like his work, it sits well beside my other beliefs. He seems a very intelligent gentleman, though perhaps that is confirmation bias lol.

Thanks for your reply,

Loki

Loki Morningstar
05-29-2018, 05:34 PM
Hi Awani,

Thanks for your reply, sorry it took me a while.

Theories of ‘mind’
‘Mind’ is not a term I like to use, only used as it was in the T. McKenna quote. This is a good example of why psychology is so frustrating, many words for the same thing, most of them lacking good definition. ’Mind’ being one such word, I agree, not much evidence. How many minds can one gather in a wheelbarrow? Currently it seems the brain is the best shot we have at understanding human consciousness. If we swap out ‘mind’ for ‘brain’ we may understanding each other better, as I am sure you agree there is much evidence of the brain storing and recalling data.

The-Cloud
I agree this is a good analogy for the phenomena in my opinion. I have covered this in my post to Ghislain above. If we then think of the brain as The-Computer I think it is fair to say the brain has limited memory capacity.

Triggering what is already there
I feel it is fair to say that psychedelics are substances, therefore they are material, therefore they act on material receptors in the brain. Should one have no receptors for a substance it would have no mind altering effect. Therefore hallucinogens act on receptors one must already have, and often it seems there is a way to trigger those receptors without the substance being involved. Such an example being that both dreams and psychedelics apparently effect serotonin, dopamine, and melatonin pathways, which appear to be also active also during sleep, sensory deprivation, meditation, etc.

The Ego
Yet again, personally this is another term I do not like, fluffy definitions. To me ‘ego’ is nothing more that the data stored of one’s self, in one's brain. Personally I prefer the term ‘self-image’. I believe that hallucinogens allow us to bypass our self-image, which I feel has nothing to do with arrogance or pridefulness. Someone could have an ego, self-image in my terminology, and yet be self hating, or humble. I feel is that hallucinogens seem to allow one to put the data already in ones head to one side briefly to use more of ones brain for processing other data. We could say it allows one to clear something like cache memory allowing one to stream data more quickly.


There is no such thing as solution or closure... nor truth... and the sooner a human being accepts this, the sooner progress can be made.

On the one hand I would have to disagree. It seems clear to me there are some truths, even if these are relative. I feel the alchemists may even have been the first ones to evidence this well. Elemental metals, when melted in the same environmental conditions, seem to melt at the same temperature every time. This appears to have constancy, so far as we can currently tell. We could call this cause and effect ‘truth’. Also we could also look at deductive truths, such as the one mentioned in my original post. Circle = Circle. This will always be truth. I think this is called the law of identity, or something like that.

At the same time, on the other hand, I do also agree that there is utility to the idea of there being no end goal. I like to think of the great work as a Sisyphean task. A never ending pursuit of higher and higher more complex ideas, with much of truth being subjective. I do believe like you that the sooner humanity accepts this the better. At the same time, I believe this should be balanced with the understanding that there are certain things, such as sugar causing obesity and diabetes, or that the human body needs water to live, that are not subjective. As evidence appears to currently point to us living in a deterministic universe.

Always the middle path, nothing too much.

Both your and Ghislain’s post has gave me food for thought. I think I am going to continue to work on my theories regarding alchemy and write a blog post going into more detail of my ideas, I quickly realised that there was much more I would like to say. But I wouldn’t want to derail this post too much from its purpose.

Thanks for your post,

Loki

Awani
05-29-2018, 06:24 PM
Thanks. Below some further thougths on the points raised. I don't claim truth here, everything written based only on direct experience.


I am sure you agree there is much evidence of the brain storing and recalling data.

Actually so far science does not know really how the brain stores data or even if it does. IMO. Data to power the body we know... but memories we don't really know. What about organ transplant when the receiver adopts knowledge the donor had, yet not knowing who the donor was? And where the "thinker" is?

As you say the brain has limited RAM.


I feel it is fair to say that psychedelics are substances, therefore they are material, therefore they act on material receptors in the brain. Should one have no receptors for a substance it would have no mind altering effect. Therefore hallucinogens act on receptors one must already have, and often it seems there is a way to trigger those receptors without the substance being involved. Such an example being that both dreams and psychedelics apparently effect serotonin, dopamine, and melatonin pathways, which appear to be also active also during sleep, sensory deprivation, meditation, etc.

My view is that it is not black and white, however unless perhaps death or birth... I highly doubt any non-psycehdelic technique can ever come close to the full blast of a proper dose of Ayahuasca. I simply cannot belive it until I experience it myself. Perhaps there are sages and shamans with extreme powers, but when it comes to "normal" people... they can chant or dance or pray as much as they like... and spend years learning techniques and skills... why even bother or waste the time, when you can have an experience you could never achieve without psychedelics... and have it without effort. Although there is great effort involved in a sense. It is certainly not easy... but it does not require any pre-knowledge so to speak.

Sure you can OBE and astral travel, and do all sorts of things without psychedelics. I do not doubt that.

But psychedelics is AN EXPERIENCE. There are multiple levels and happenings in a psychedelic experience that simply cannot be done without doing it. IMO. I mean you cannot have a full on roller coaster experience unless you go on a roller coaster. You cannot have a sexual expereince unless you have sex. You cannot have a psychedelic experience without psychedelics. It is logically, statistically and linguistically impossible... but everything is probable.

The psychedelic experience is visionary, it is a review of your life, it is a future/past life experience, it is wisdom imparting, it is funny, it is scary, it is visually beautiful, it provides an emotional roller coaster, it heals, it empowers, there is death, there is OBE... there are hundreds of aspects/happenings in a single psychedelic experience... too many things that ONE person would never be able to achieve at will, on their own, in one sitting. That, to me, sounds impossible. And then have that experience resonate and influence that persons life for decades to come.

I have no evidence so far in my dream experience to even begin to suggest that dreaming or the dream realm is even close to the psycehdelic experience. I have never seen any similarities at all. They are, in my experience, totally different.

Counter argument: there is this concept of smoking DMT within a dream and I have yet managed to do it. But as far as I understand, if one is dreaming and gets the chance to partake of a psychedelic WITHIN the dream then the experience will be a psycehdelic experience. This could be a sort of proof that it is within the mind... but as I said I have yet not managed to do this.

It still doesn't really provide proof, because I would still claim that dreaming, psychedelic experience and such matters have very little to do with the brain or even with mind... that is why that McKenna quote is so good.

I think we are living inside a small box, and the psychedelic experience opens the box up... and we get to experience the universe WITHOUT any boundaries. Even less boundaries than when dreaming IMO.

Why less than when dreaming?

Because in my experience even when dreaming, the enteties and the beings I meet in a dream still feel like projections or parts of myself. They don't seem like complete seperate enteties. However in the psychedelic experience they are. And there is also the aspect that there is a progression of time.

When you smoke DMT and go into the DMT realm you have an experience, then if you smoke and return a week later time has passed in that realm. Now this is an aspect that suggests that the psycehdelic realm is a "real" place on a time line without time.


I do also agree that there is utility to the idea of there being no end goal.

If someone thinks there will be a resolution they are in for a very bad "trip". LOL.

Embrace the mystery.

:p

Awani
05-29-2018, 06:40 PM
Understanding the psychedelic experience is, in my humble opinion probably the most important, interesting and urgent avenue of science, theology and psychology in the world right now. Everything else is secondary and boring. :)

:p

Loki Morningstar
05-29-2018, 07:53 PM
Some interesting points. I assure you I do not claim truth here either. As you say, this is just my opinions based on what I have experienced or read so far.

How does the brain store data?
My reading had lead me to be believe that the brain does store data, even memories, a good example of this is the Penfield experiments (Penfield & Perot, 1963). Penfield was able to stimulate vivid recall of past memories in his patients via electrically stimulating the temporal lobe. He did quite a bit of interesting research, also mapping the motor cortex and creating a diagram named Penfield’s homunculus.

Where is the thinker?
Now this is a very interesting subject to study. The brain seems to be a modular neural network. The widely held view is that there is not a central executive; as this leads to infinite regression, sometimes called the homunculus argument; it appears that function-specific parts the brain work in parallel, thereby there is no centre. Although at the same time, the frontal lobes seem to have some executive functions such as inhibiting urge driven behaviour. I could go deeper, though my knowledge is rusty and I would have to refresh myself to say things with accuracy, perhaps another time, another thread.


Perhaps there are sages and shamans with extreme powers, but when it comes to "normal" people... they can chant or dance or pray as much as they like... and spend years learning techniques and skills... why even bother or waste the time, when you can have an experience you could never achieve without psychedelics... and have it without effort. Although there is great effort involved in a sense. It is certainly not easy... but it does not require any pre-knowledge so to speak.

IMO nothing worth doing is easy. One person could take psychedelics and never find the path. Whereas another may already be on the path and find them helpful. I think it does take pre-knowledge. Additionally both of the above will need to do hard work to travel further down the path and I don’t think psychedelics alone can get you there. Wasting time? I think not, enjoy the path, enjoy the travel, if you enjoy your work you’ll never work a day in your life.


But psychedelics is AN EXPERIENCE. There are multiple levels and happenings in a psychedelic experience that simply cannot be done without doing it. IMO. I mean you cannot have a full on roller coaster experience unless you go on a roller coaster. You cannot have a sexual expereince unless you have sex. You cannot have a psychedelic experience without psychedelics. It is logically, statistically and linguistically impossible... but everything is probable.

I agree, depending on your aims, I doubt any experience can come close to psychedelics if a psychedelic experience is what you are looking for, and I am not knocking it AS AN EXPERIENCE. I really enjoyed mushrooms and the sensation and visions I had with them. And as you say, I think they have a time and place, especially for blasting “norms”, as you put it, to give them an idea of what they are attempting to attain. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I think they can be valid part of the path, but in my humble opinion they are not a path in and of themselves, but perhaps this is semantics.


Because in my experience even when dreaming, the entities and the beings I meet in a dream still feel like projections or parts of myself. They don't seem like complete separate entities. However in the psychedelic experience they are. And there is also the aspect that there is a progression of time.

I suppose in this sense perhaps I am just lucky, I have extremely vivid dreams. Even my day dreams can take me to awesome places. I have had people teach me things in dreams that I believe I did not know before the dream. I have had experiences with meditation and binaural beats where beings have taught me things. They assured me that I will be able to access other levels and that they would show me the way, but I would have to purify my vessel first otherwise I would taint the learnings. But that is whole other story lol. Please don't get me wrong, I feel I am very much new to the path, but I can't help feel that slowly slowly catches monkey, and psychedelics feels like using a sledgehammer to open a beer can to me. As we have both said, these are just our opinions, and it takes all sorts to make the world go round. I am glad everyone is different, makes it easier to learn from others experiences.


If someone thinks there will be a resolution they are in for a very bad "trip". LOL.

Now here is something we can both completely agree on lol. :D

Loki Morningstar
05-29-2018, 07:54 PM
Understanding the psychedelic experience is, in my humble opinion probably the most important, interesting and urgent avenue of science, theology and psychology in the world right now. Everything else is secondary and boring. :)

:p

Here here!!! :D But I can't help feel one must go through the more "boring" stuff to get there, like understanding the brain, even if it is just to write it off.

Awani
05-29-2018, 08:31 PM
Well we have used the term psycehdelic experience, but most of the time I am talking about an Ayahuasca experience.

Ayahuasca cannot be compared to the other psycehdelics (at least the ones I have tried), and it is in a league of its own. IMO. Iboga even more powerful, but for me personally it is Ayahuasca that is my teacher.

You are correct that psychedelics is not the path on its own. But it certainly is part of the path. Even if I never do any psycehdelics again for the rest of my life, they will never leave me. My relationship with them, and what I have experienced, is now part of who I am. There is no separation between me and Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is the teacher... so if I follow the teacher then I am on the teachers path... and the teacher is a plant. So...

To gain something, and to ride the wave then yes you need some experience and pre-knowledge... but I can take anyone in the world, sit that person down and make them smoke a large hit of DMT... and like it or not, they are going to "go somewhere". They don't need any pre-knowledge for this. Just shut the fuck up and inhale. LOL.

I could have achieved what I have achieved without psychedelics, although I would have probably wasted 30 years doing it "the natural" way... maybe more, maybe never.

Just one example out of thousands: I would never have forgiven my father and let my issues regarding my father go. Not a soul on this planet, not the best psychologist could have ever made me give up my hate. It was a part of who I was. I had carried that hate for 25+ years... I enjoyed it. And I was planning to do something. Violence. Revenge. Fraud. Something... maybe only in fantasy... but I would never let it go. NEVER.

Ayahuasca removed it in 3.5 hours. Gone. Forever. Free.

That is ONE example only.

Yes, maybe I could have reached my current feelings about my father without psychedelics... that is possible, yes. But why suffer for decades, when you can be cured in a moment? Only an idiot would take the long path. Now I can focus on the REAL issues... not waste precious time on bullshit issues.

The funny thing is I did not even request Ayahuasca to deal with this issue. I did not even think it was an issue.

Ayahuasca had other ideas. LOL.

---------------------------------

For someone that has not worked properly with Ayahuasca it might sound crazy... I can only say that what I speak is true based on what I have experienced... and Ayahuasca is self-conscious. No doubt.

Jesus saith... because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. - John 20:29 [KJV]

---------------------------------

The podcast has 30 000 downloads... 200 episodes soon... had dinner with Dennis McKenna thanks to the podcast and expanded my network in terms of cool people. Ayahuasca told me to do the podcast. Not I.

I manage a charity that is growing by the day. A lot of doors has opened and some pretty amazing opportunities has occured due to this. Ayahuasca told me to start the charity.

I have a beautiful daughter. Ayahuasca told me to create a child. I was against it before.

The list goes on and on.

Basically by now if Ayahuasca tells me to jump off a cliff I go: Yes Sir!

Ayahuasca is my fucking manager, that never gives bad advice. You can claim it is coming from deep within me... sure you could claim that. But frankly... I don't recognize my own voice when it speaks. So... yes... mystery... embrace the mystery.

---------------------------------

Also it has been soon 4 years since I had my last Ayahuasca ceremony... I am still going through my notes... so those that think I drink every week are way off...

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btNhMBytxAM6YBa/giphy.gif

:p

Awani
05-29-2018, 08:49 PM
...and psychedelics feels like using a sledgehammer to open a beer can to me...

LOL. Well... maybe that is because what you really need to do is smash that beer can to bits and embrace the mystery sober. He he he.

:p

Loki Morningstar
05-30-2018, 09:00 PM
...those that think I drink every week are way off...

Sorry you feel judged for your use of psychedelics, not my intention, I do my best to never think I know someone. My only intention is to debate, “Are psychedelics a valid path?”. I agree there are learnings to be had from psychedelics, I enjoy talking to people about their psychedelic journeys, and have done them myself in the past. They totally are part of some peoples paths, I just don’t think they are the path, and though I feel they may be helpful on the path I'm currently not grounded enough for psychedelics; personal issues, escapism into fantasy, psychosis, etc. I’m still getting used to half tripping most of the time lol, have been since I first took mushrooms.


Only an idiot would take the long path.

Not sure I would call myself an idiot, a fool perhaps? :p;). If you listened to classical music, would you just listen to the crescendo?


You can claim it is coming from deep within me... sure you could claim that.

I can and will, for myself at least, I believe all phenomena comes from within. As above, so below. Within you, without you. (http://https://youtu.be/q2dMSfmUJec) I feel more grounded and empowered this way; I tested both. I don’t feel its any less spiritual, or useful. I've complex philosophical rational behind my beliefs, and I am happy to share with anyone interested. I'm just crowd testing and sharing my views, attempting to find like minds, not attempting to change anyone. If belief in an external higher power is what works for you, all power to you.


I don't recognize my own voice when it speaks.

To me, that is the path: To learn to recognise ones own voice.

The subconscious, especially in this era and society; people wanting everything now in the quickest way possible, bunging copious amounts of audio-visual stimulus into their head, advertising, stimulants, fast food, solution rather than prevention, magic pill thinking, airline travel, working 40 hours a week, the infinite scroll of social media, people feeling guilty and not knowing why, black and white thinking, 24/7 music and tv, non stop consuming, barely stopping to smell the flowers; is screaming out to be heard. To me this is why we see so many different forms of mental illness these days, and also why many people find relief in psychedelics.

Could perhaps your revelations from psychedelics have been caused by set and setting more than consuming?

Again, disclaimer, this is just my opinion. Just asking questions, sharing my 2 cents.

I fully appreciate and enjoy reading your input.

P.S. I love your podcast, it rules! :D

Loki Morningstar
05-30-2018, 09:30 PM
LOL. Well... maybe that is because what you really need to do is smash that beer can to bits and embrace the mystery sober. He he he.

Hehe, yes this is a very good point. Not quite what I meant, but a great message all the same. :)

Awani
05-30-2018, 10:30 PM
Sorry you feel judged for your use of psychedelics, not my intention, I do my best to never think I know someone.

No, nothing you said. I was just saying.


Not sure I would call myself an idiot, a fool perhaps? :p;). If you listened to classical music, would you just listen to the crescendo?

I just mean that if I can advance to the next level in 3 hours I'd rather do that than waste 30 years and end up at the same point.



Could perhaps your revelations from psychedelics have been caused by set and setting more than consuming?

Well of course set and setting is important, as is the shaman. I would say 50 % of the experience are those things. However the thing with Ayahuasca that I try to explain is that it is magic. The actual ayahuasca experience begins at the very moment when you pay for your plane ticket. It's so weird. It begins talking.

I am not trying to convince anyone... if you know you know, I guess... and I know plenty of people that have had similar experiences. Sure as without so within and all that, I too believe it is all ONE thing...

But Ayahuasca is an intelligence on its own terms. It is a being of some sort. It sounds mad... I cannot explain it. It talks. Maybe my voice... but seriously it is not my voice. It isn't.

All I know is that when I jump into the ocean it is very hard to convince me that I am dry. Very hard.

As for the rest of your points I can't say wrong or right. I don't know.


P.S. I love your podcast, it rules! :D

Thanks.

:p

Awani
05-30-2018, 10:33 PM
All my life I searched for "it". It took me a long time to find "it".

This is it.

:p

zoas23
05-30-2018, 11:17 PM
Well of course set and setting is important, as is the shaman. I would say 50 % of the experience are those things. However the thing with Ayahuasca that I try to explain is that it is magic. The actual ayahuasca experience begins at the very moment when you pay for your plane ticket. It's so weird. It begins talking.

I saw a friend yesterday. I had not seen her in 15 years, but it's one of those friendships in which a 15 years hiatus ceases to exist in the same second you see the other person.

Anyway... She updated me with her life in the last 15 years and she went through the "psychedelic path" (which is over for her, it was something she needed some 10 years ago and it lasted the time she wanted it to last).

Anyway... whilst I am not truly interested in that specific path, she told me about her experiences and went very strong against ayahuasca... and said that if someone wanted to take that path, then San Pedro Cactus or Peyote are the most reasonable and "safe" options.

Her problem with ayahuasca is that she actually liked it, the purge and everything... BUT during a session she had a heart attack which could have killed her (thankfully it didn't, but her heart is "damaged" forever in a small part). She investigated a bit after her incident and found out that her case was not the only one, nor a very strange exception... and that ayahuasca may induce a heart attack (her only problem with it, otherwise she liked it, but of course it was her last time with it.... investigate about it, because it may not be as "safe" as you think -not talking from a spiritual perspective or moral perspective or whatever, but heart attacks).

Otherwise her "psychedelic experience" was good for her. She decided to learn astrology and meditation techniques after her "psychedelic adventures" and she is not sorry for having taken those psychedelics when she felt that she needed it... Even if it's something that for her is "over" (like an "I've done it, now I moved into something else").

elixirmixer
05-31-2018, 02:39 AM
Ive had a "special delivery".

Bath and Spa products apparently lol

Awani
05-31-2018, 09:52 AM
...investigate about it...

Yes, that is important. And it applies to you too Sir, because there is little "truth" in what you have said... unless your source is Fox News or something.

Ayahuasca AND all other psychedelics like San Pedro and Peyote can be dangerous if you have a heart condition (some people are not aware they have it).

If your heart is "normal" then ayahuasca is certainly not dangerous. Statistically there is a bigger chance of dying from tripping in the shower than from tripping on ayahuasca.

However some shamans mix ayahuasca with datura and other substances, and those can have a higher degree of "danger". Also people that mix ayahuasca with other drugs or pharma drugs can experience dangers. All deaths occured in relationship with ayahuasca has NEVER been caused by "normal" ayahuasca on its own (perhaps there exists an exception, but I have never heard of it... more people have died from drinking too much water than from ayahuasca).

Ayahuasca + idiot behaviour = possible death

The most dangerous thing with ayahuasca, and the reason why many people don't want to do it, is that it might destroy everything you belive and put your life in a completly different direction. So if someone does not want a possibility of change, don't do it.

------------------------------

"Psychedelic path" is just a term... sounds to me like your friend is still on it... it doesn't imply a person keeps using psychedelics, rather that the psychedelic has influenced choices in life, which it seems it did on your friend. So I would class her as being on that path, however a path does not really need a name.

:p

zoas23
05-31-2018, 04:40 PM
Yes, that is important. And it applies to you too Sir, because there is little "truth" in what you have said... unless your source is Fox News or something.
Ayahuasca AND all other psychedelics like San Pedro and Peyote can be dangerous if you have a heart condition (some people are not aware they have it).

My source is a close friend who had a heart attack (in Brazil). She liked ayahuasca though, until she had a heart attack being only some 25 years old. I doubt other "medicines" where involved, because she is, since I know her, a vegetarian obsessed with organic food and more into reiki than traditional medicine.

She was VERY positive about the San Pedro and the Peyote though.

Maybe she had a heart condition or her "shaman" added datura... I really can't know those things, that's possible too. Anyway, even if that was the case, it is a good reason to be, at least, a bit cautious. A heart attack being around 25 years old is not normal.

Other than that, her main opinion was that psychedelics is a "valid path", her only objection was ayahuasca because of health risks (otherwise she liked it actually)... I was surprised to find her knowing about Astrology, reiki and by far more relaxed than she used to be. So it was mostly a good experience for her, except her incident with ayahuasca.

I would say it is, at least, a good reason to be cautious. Maybe you can write a different thread about the cautions which are needed (i.e, a cardio exam probably) as to make sure that it is "safe".

Also, there is a new song by Flipper about ayahuasca... have you heard it? :p

Awani
05-31-2018, 04:57 PM
I agree. Always important to be careful. However if you have average heart I would not be worried about ayahuasca, more about the taxi ride to the airport when flying to Peru.


Also, there is a new song by Flipper about ayahuasca... have you heard it? :p

If they drank ayahuasca their music would not be good anymore.

:p

thoth
05-31-2018, 07:46 PM
Well we have used the term psycehdelic experience, but most of the time I am talking about an Ayahuasca experience.

Ayahuasca cannot be compared to the other psycehdelics (at least the ones I have tried), and it is in a league of its own. IMO. Iboga even more powerful, but for me personally it is Ayahuasca that is my teacher.

You are correct that psychedelics is not the path on its own. But it certainly is part of the path. Even if I never do any psycehdelics again for the rest of my life, they will never leave me. My relationship with them, and what I have experienced, is now part of who I am. There is no separation between me and Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is the teacher... so if I follow the teacher then I am on the teachers path... and the teacher is a plant. So...

To gain something, and to ride the wave then yes you need some experience and pre-knowledge... but I can take anyone in the world, sit that person down and make them smoke a large hit of DMT... and like it or not, they are going to "go somewhere". They don't need any pre-knowledge for this. Just shut the fuck up and inhale. LOL.

I could have achieved what I have achieved without psychedelics, although I would have probably wasted 30 years doing it "the natural" way... maybe more, maybe never.

Just one example out of thousands: I would never have forgiven my father and let my issues regarding my father go. Not a soul on this planet, not the best psychologist could have ever made me give up my hate. It was a part of who I was. I had carried that hate for 25+ years... I enjoyed it. And I was planning to do something. Violence. Revenge. Fraud. Something... maybe only in fantasy... but I would never let it go. NEVER.

Ayahuasca removed it in 3.5 hours. Gone. Forever. Free.

That is ONE example only.

Yes, maybe I could have reached my current feelings about my father without psychedelics... that is possible, yes. But why suffer for decades, when you can be cured in a moment? Only an idiot would take the long path. Now I can focus on the REAL issues... not waste precious time on bullshit issues.

The funny thing is I did not even request Ayahuasca to deal with this issue. I did not even think it was an issue.

Ayahuasca had other ideas. LOL.

---------------------------------

For someone that has not worked properly with Ayahuasca it might sound crazy... I can only say that what I speak is true based on what I have experienced... and Ayahuasca is self-conscious. No doubt.

Jesus saith... because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. - John 20:29 [KJV]

---------------------------------

The podcast has 30 000 downloads... 200 episodes soon... had dinner with Dennis McKenna thanks to the podcast and expanded my network in terms of cool people. Ayahuasca told me to do the podcast. Not I.

I manage a charity that is growing by the day. A lot of doors has opened and some pretty amazing opportunities has occured due to this. Ayahuasca told me to start the charity.

I have a beautiful daughter. Ayahuasca told me to create a child. I was against it before.

The list goes on and on.

Basically by now if Ayahuasca tells me to jump off a cliff I go: Yes Sir!

Ayahuasca is my fucking manager, that never gives bad advice. You can claim it is coming from deep within me... sure you could claim that. But frankly... I don't recognize my own voice when it speaks. So... yes... mystery... embrace the mystery.

---------------------------------

Also it has been soon 4 years since I had my last Ayahuasca ceremony... I am still going through my notes... so those that think I drink every week are way off...

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7btNhMBytxAM6YBa/giphy.gif

:p

I hope to try Aya someday soon. I do believe it is an intelligence/spirit.

Datura sounds scary, and some amazon countries use it more than others. It may be related to heart problems. I guess dosage is important.

You can always email a well run place in advance and ask if it goes in the brew

Kibric
06-03-2018, 10:11 AM
Which component in your avatar are you saying is the old man has become young plant. I searched and did not see any documents stating that a depiction of the plant of the Gilgamesh story had been discovered.
It is part of the Dilmun seals which depict the creation story. The horned plant being held by the two figures is the flower of life.( "Old Men Become Young." plant )
I will try to find you a paper on it that's not behind a paywall.

Kibric
06-03-2018, 12:19 PM
Back on topic. I think this is relevant to this thread and how time is perceived in altered states.


An experiment by Rolland Fischer related the alteration of metabolism to changes in time sense, spatial sense and their juxtaposition.
He administered drugs to test his cases which either accelerated or retarded their metabolism. When a person is given a stimulant ( amphetamines, cocaine, LSD )
his metabolic rate increases, the respiration rate increases, and the rate at which his eyes receive images increases.
Receiving proportionally more images in an equivalent amount of time than usual produces an overestimation of duration and a sense that time is passing slowly.
(if normally the person received six images per second and in the excited state received nine images per second, he would then think that every second actually contained
a second and a half of perceptions. ) If a tranquilliser is administered the metabolic rate decreases, the respiration rate decreases and the rate at which the eyes
receive images decreases an consequently fewer images are perceived in the same time. This produces an underestimation of the passage of time, and time seems to fly by. - A.T Mann, The Round Art.


Alterations in interpretations of space time are not only concomitant with the states of excitation and tranquilization induced by drugs
which raise or lower the metabolic rate. Other contrasting pairs of modi such as youth and old age also produce high and low metabolic rate respectively
and thus concomitant changes in interpretation of space time.
The seeming contradiction that time passes more slowly for the young and faster for the old is resolved in light of the above explication - Rolland Fischer