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Ghislain
11-10-2012, 01:41 PM
Is this a Paradox?

If it is not then I would love to know your "thoughts" about it.

Asimov never fails to please...Below is a link to a short story.


The Last Answer by Isaac Asimov — © 1980 (http://www.thrivenotes.com/the-last-answer/)


Now one can understand the beauty of the illusion. IMO :)


Ghislain

Andro
11-10-2012, 02:26 PM
Is this a Paradox? If it is not then I would love to know your "thoughts" about it.

I don't think it's a Paradox. I think it's the ONLY thing that isn't a Paradox.

I think it's the only purpose that has actual meaning. I think it's the only purpose that makes sense.

More than that, it may be the only way to freedom. With nothing left to lose.

The ultimate Skeleton Key.

Brilliant. Thanks for posting.

Andro
11-10-2012, 02:32 PM
Also, if the goal of Alchemy/Everything isn't 'The Last Answer', then I don't know what is...

Paradox Lost ;)

Ghislain
11-10-2012, 03:06 PM
It certaily makes one think lol.

Ghislain

Andro
11-10-2012, 03:20 PM
It certainly makes one think.

What thoughts does it trigger in you?

Is it 'thoughts' that it triggers? Or is it 'something' more akin to a deeply rooted longing for something that makes SO much sense, that it's nearly impossible to comprehend?

Asimov is a great MOM (Master Of Mindfuck), but this time I'd say he pretty much nailed it :)

Andro
11-10-2012, 05:51 PM
Apparently, it took Asimov 24 years to come up with 'The Last Answer', after his (sort of precursory) story 'The Last Question' was published.

'Sort of' - because 'The Last Answer' seems to address a 'Question' which appears to be quite the opposite of his original 'Last Question', which in retrospective seems more like a 'First Question'...

The Last Question by Isaac Asimov — © 1956 (http://www.thrivenotes.com/the-last-question/)

I highly recommend reading them both :cool:

Andro
11-10-2012, 06:11 PM
Also, if you ask me, approaching this 'Last Answer' would need to involve Finding A Hole In The Whole.

(A Whole is like a Ball, and every Ball has a Hole :) - a.a.k.a.* 'Achilles' Heel', etc...)

* a.a.k.a. = 'Also Archetypally Known As'

Ghislain
11-10-2012, 07:42 PM
I have been searching for words to describe how I feel after reading Asimov's conundrum,
but I cant find anything appropriate.

I think I would have to say it makes want to look at life with less detail and more holistically...perhaps :confused:

Ghislain

solomon levi
11-11-2012, 12:35 AM
Also, if you ask me, approaching this 'Last Answer' would need to involve Finding A Hole In The Whole.

(A Whole is like a Ball, and every Ball has a Hole :) - a.a.k.a.* 'Achilles' Heel', etc...)

* a.a.k.a. = 'Also Archetypally Known As'

Forgive me for not yet reading the short story - I will soon.
But i like this image of a hole in the whole... I don't think we can "find" it (passively);
I think we "create" it or intend it - all creation is a hole in the whole, don't you think?
Isn't this how the ball became a torus?
When the "word/logos" came into being, isn't that a hole in the whole?

Awani
11-12-2012, 12:44 AM
The story reminds me of my horror experience on ayahuasca where I found my self in a never-ending cycle of never finding out the truth. Of scratching my skin and pulling my hair in despair, because there was no last answer, there was no end. This experience made me utterly fear death, as I did not want to be aware of this fact: that regardless of what I did I was doomed to wander through eternity never really seeing or experience an end or a conclusion. Hard to explain, but horrifying...

...until I was told that the key was Love.

Now the above might not fit exactly into his Story, but the story dragged me back to this event that I still often think about. It was almost as a warning, a vaccine for eternal suffering. It is not strange that Jesus spoke of love, or Buddha... or all the others. It is not a coincidence... and all those people around the world today that speak/preach about love, well they might not themselves be sure of why they do it, maybe they just have a subconscious feeling that it is correct. For me I have seen and experienced proof of this and little can change my mind, but that does not mean my mind will change. For now love must be the path to follow. All answers will be found there...


The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart. - Buddha

:cool:

III
11-13-2012, 05:52 AM
I hadn't read the "Last Answer". On the other hand I have read "The Last Question" too many decaders ago. Interestingly Asimov is describing how a consciousness might make an ever changing fractal of iteself. Isn't that essentially what we doing, establishing ourselves as self designing self evolving consciousnesses that contains our evolving self over and over again, a fractal.

Ghislain
11-13-2012, 12:35 PM
I did not want to be aware of this fact...until I was told that the key was Love... a vaccine for eternal suffering

That's the feeling I had...if this was true I didn't want to know, but if I did know this what would I do;
how would I cope?

Then I wondered what if this was what the One conscious was feeling. Can One find company in the
duality that One has created for itself?

WHAT IS LOVE!...it always comes back to this. If there is only One then One has to love itself. Is love
the same as intensely liking or is that lust. Is love like the taste of cabbage...is it the sight of a
mountain...is it the smell of a sewer...is it the feel of a jelly...is it the sound of a tree falling. That IMO
would be appreciation...Is love the company of others...duality?

Is the One totally selfish?

Am I all that is or am I part of your "all that is"?

Solipsism raises its ugly head here.

In comparison a simple question would be, “where does the Universe end”? Is there a plastic lining
as though it is a great big bag...is there a brick wall...does it fold in on itself so when you reach it you
are back where you started...blah blah blah...I am sure we have all pondered this, but if it is any of
the above then what is outside of this...and what is outside of that...and...and...and...

Can there be a “Last Answer”

Is faith just a way to stop the incessant questioning? Is it a way to cope with the truth? Can anyone
find the answer and feel comfort in that answer or does doubt creep in and the “what if’s” start
again.


Lets look at some “what if’s”

What if one finds the stone, amasses untold wealth and health...what then?

What if one meets thy maker...what then?

What if one realises everything is eternal...what then?

What if everything just stoppedhttp://genius.toucansurf.com/fading%20dots.jpg

Andro
11-13-2012, 06:00 PM
Solipsism raises its ugly head here.

Why 'ugly'? Why associate Solipsism with 'ugly'? Just curious...


“where does the Universe end”?

It ends where it begins and it begins where it ends.

A more challenging question would IMO be: HOW does Infinity end without 'restarting'...


Lets look at some “what if’s”

What if one finds the stone, amasses untold wealth and health...what then?

What if one meets thy maker...what then?

What if one realizes everything is eternal...what then?

What if everything just stoppedhttp://genius.toucansurf.com/fading%20dots.jpg

What if we were to look at these 'what if' questions in a different manner, not as questions, but instead as a sequential progression of actual events, ending with a full stop?

I think the Universe perpetually/infinitely clones itself and thus keeps itself 'alive' by forgetting at every turn (infinite memory compression, down to seemingly Nothing).

Maybe the key to 'The Last Answer' would be to find a way to 'Cross the Styx' and 'Drink from The Lethe*', while still managing to keep at least one actual, intact, UN-compressed memory.

Still, it's a chance the Universe would have to take, even if successful in smuggling a memory though the loop-hole.

On one hand, realizing it had been basically 'doing' the same thing over and over again (and infinitely so), may really take away the need to restart.

On the other hand, it can always go into denial and make itself forget again, by telling itself the very same infinitely old bed-time story, in an even more complex way than the 'previous' cycle.

Maybe these are the only moments of CHOICE the Universe ever has...

I'd say it would be reasonable to assume that such an attempt is made at each and every 'turn'...


Solipsism raises its ugly head here.

Apparently, I'm still 'here'... Guess I'll keep on trying :)
________________________________________________

* Quoth Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe):


Lethe (lee-thee), the river of forgetfulness, was one of the five rivers of the Greek underworld [...]
The shades of the dead were required to drink the waters of the Lethe in order to forget their earthly life.
In the Aeneid, Virgil writes that it is only when the dead have had their memories erased by the Lethe that they may be reincarnated.

III
11-16-2012, 01:48 AM
The story reminds me of my horror experience on ayahuasca where I found my self in a never-ending cycle of never finding out the truth. Of scratching my skin and pulling my hair in despair, because there was no last answer, there was no end. This experience made me utterly fear death, as I did not want to be aware of this fact: that regardless of what I did I was doomed to wander through eternity never really seeing or experience an end or a conclusion. Hard to explain, but horrifying

...until I was told that the key was Love.

Now the above might not fit exactly into his Story, but the story dragged me back to this event that I still often think about. It was almost as a warning, a vaccine for eternal suffering. It is not strange that Jesus spoke of love, or Buddha... or all the others. It is not a coincidence... and all those people around the world today that speak/preach about love, well they might not themselves be sure of why they do it, maybe they just have a subconscious feeling that it is correct. For me I have seen and experienced proof of this and little can change my mind, but that does not mean my mind will change. For now love must be the path to follow. All answers will be found there...

:cool:



I found my self in a never-ending cycle of never finding out the truth. Of scratching my skin and pulling my hair in despair, because there was no last answer, there was no end.

Calculus! Take the limit as delta X approaches zero ...

That is also a key to eternal life. Each time one finds the "final answer" a new vista is forced to open up as one is changed by having an answer so all is not the same. This continues the making of the fractal of consciousness, the evolution of the being. As soon as you can not find a change that makes a difference, when there are no additional possible answers there ceases to be the possiblity of additional unique lives. LOVE your conscious being and allow your conscious being to LOVE. In LOVE all this at least seems worthwhile.

It is not strange that Jesus spoke of love, or Buddha... or all the others. It is not a coincidence... and all those people around the world today that speak/preach about love, well they might not themselves be sure of why they do it, maybe they just have a subconscious feeling that it is correct. For me I have seen and experienced proof of this and little can change my mind, but that does not mean my mind will change. For now love must be the path to follow. All answers will be found there...

"Love thy neighbor as thy self". can be seen as a template of energy flow. When one DOES/IS that one will BE amazed.

" LOVE your conscious being and allow your conscious being to LOVE. In LOVE all this at least seems worthwhile."


I bring this down here not becasue I planned to end up here but this is how it happened. I would consider the two to be equivalent.
BE IN LOVE

III
11-16-2012, 06:31 AM
Why 'ugly'? Why associate Solipsism with 'ugly'? Just curious...



It ends where it begins and it begins where it ends.

A more challenging question would IMO be: HOW does Infinity end without 'restarting'...



What if we were to look at these 'what if' questions in a different manner, not as questions, but instead as a sequential progression of actual events, ending with a full stop?

I think the Universe perpetually/infinitely clones itself and thus keeps itself 'alive' by forgetting at every turn (infinite memory compression, down to seemingly Nothing).

Maybe the key to 'The Last Answer' would be to find a way to 'Cross the Styx' and 'Drink from The Lethe*', while still managing to keep at least one actual, intact, UN-compressed memory.

Still, it's a chance the Universe would have to take, even if successful in smuggling a memory though the loop-hole.

On one hand, realizing it had been basically 'doing' the same thing over and over again (and infinitely so), may really take away the need to restart.

On the other hand, it can always go into denial and make itself forget again, by telling itself the very same infinitely old bed-time story, in an even more complex way than the 'previous' cycle.

Maybe these are the only moments of CHOICE the Universe ever has...

I'd say it would be reasonable to assume that such an attempt is made at each and every 'turn'...



Apparently, I'm still 'here'... Guess I'll keep on trying :)
________________________________________________

* Quoth Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe):


Hi Androgynus,

Maybe the key to 'The Last Answer' would be to find a way to 'Cross the Styx' and 'Drink from The Lethe*', while still managing to keep at least one actual, intact, UN-compressed memory.


Still, it's a chance the Universe would have to take, even if successful in smuggling a memory though the loop-hole.

Gold talks about "data retrieval in the higher dimensions" in LIFE IN THE LABYRINTH. There is a learnable skill. As best I can say it the memory can be retained one shift but not two. So if there are two or more steps to returning the memory is carried if it can be brought to the surface in each temporary chamber on the way back. If one is crossing over a speed of light compression boundary, bringing back memory is a different matter. There is a matter of setting it up previously and that is known in that space. As far as voluntary concious reincarnations/recurrances there is a choice to remember or not. But that is imperfect memory for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is to avoid terminal boredom and screwing everything up by "expecting" certain outcomes that can only occur if one acts with no prior knowledge. There is perhaps an example. One is changed with "knowing" an outcome in advance therefore things don't happen so as to bring about that which would have happened if not for the prior knowledge so the prior knowledge appears false. When something REAL changes the effects occur about immediately. Once they are changed they have "always" been that. The only thing we each can change is our self and thereby the world we perceive.

Each individual self designing consciousness contains the entire fractal and is contained within said fractal, ad infinitum, recursion without limit. Each consciousness has it's own custom decoder of the universal fractal.

Every description is at best a very incomplete and approximate description at the best of times and is subject to the speakers own interpretations and language usage.

BE IN LOVE

Andro
03-13-2014, 05:51 AM
all creation is a hole in the whole, don't you think?
When the "word/logos" came into being, isn't that a hole in the whole?

I very much see it the same way. Also a reminder of the Lurianic 'Tsimtsum (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2047206/jewish/Tsimtsum.htm)':


The Ari described an initial, pre-creation state of infinite light, within which there was no place for anything at all to be.
Before creating any worlds, the Creator withdrew that energy completely, resulting in a total void within the infinite light.
The Hole in the Whole :)

Superbeast
03-13-2014, 08:29 AM
Wow. Thank you so much for sharing these with us.

"The Last Answer" was a great piece,
and so was "The Last Question."

Analyzing the two pieces requires some thought,
but mostly because Asimov was pretty straightforward in their meanings.

So I'll keep it simple.
I think "The Last Answer" is the death of God.
And "The Last Question" is the birth of God.

Even more simply,
The last question is "How was God born?"
And the last answer is how He died.
Literally, He is born to ask "the last question," ("How was God born?")
and He died when He answered it.

The importance of this can be seen in some of the first questions asked in "The Last Answer."
"Is this heaven?" and "Are you God?"
According to "The Last Question," what the answer should've been was "This is hyperspace and I am the Cosmic AC."
But the only "significant" answer given to Murray is "I am."
"I am," and then nothing.
I am... nothing?

Sometimes, I wonder.