View Full Version : A declaration of guilt

11-12-2012, 01:50 AM
A declaration of guilt (in the form of a question)

Preface to the question
What have we accomplished really? Are our technological advances worthy to be considered when we look at the journey of the human race? Should we not look at it from the viewpoint of how we have evolved as conscious beings? Look at the last hundred years, the ultimate pinnacle of human accomplishments so far in most fields yet the atrocities increases as we move along; genocide after genocide. A world shattered by war after war after war.

We all know it, yet we are still in the dark ages. We still have cages; we still have kings and lords, still taxes on our wages. Sure now we got digital yellow pages, but Purpose can’t be found amongst the P pages.

What is it then, our purpose?

We are all one species, but we are still individuals. The separation is an illusion, as well as the reality we are all sharing. Realities can change over night. Sometimes it takes a lot, sometimes not much at all. Sometimes it is only one person. Many positive world-changing events can be traced back to just one person: someone with a purpose. Generally I would suggest that what we want to have is a positive purpose, no matter what the purpose is? The majority of our species are not greedy bloodthirsty psychopaths, yet we as a species are allowing atrocities to occur on a daily basis. I blame us all. In fact I personally blame myself.

Any belief system can merge with the idea that a beauty is ever present, inside, outside, but few would agree that the centre of this beauty is you. Isn’t life an experience each single human being is having? Deep within we all carry the confusion. I don’t care how calm you say you are. We will all face death. We have to; we know it…

Regardless of what after-life scenario that is peddled we will all face that threshold by ourselves if even for a moment. Even if it all goes black and we completely seize to exist in any shape or form we will still, for a moment, face the crossing of a bridge. Be it over an abyss or into a bright tunnel, there we will stand, lie, walk, dissolve or float. We are all in the same boat. Are we drifting down stream, or are we rowing… Are we as a species on a nice Sunday row or in a bump race?

Do we want to be participants in any game that hurt other beings? Really don’t we all just want to get along? This is what I mean when I say positive changes. I want to be clear in this layout.

There are massive subcultures creating the appearance of positive changes. It is extremely important what the coming generations are going to do... about to do. We have peaked as a race, or I must be blind as to how high the peak is because, to my mind, a continuation of the current state of affairs worldwide is not productive, not sustainable, and ultimately a road towards ruin. I see we have two choices as a species: global suicide (self-annihilation) or transformation.

No one needs to starve. No one needs to be a slave. We all want peace. No war. Peace is easy. So why isn’t it so?

I can’t be the only one feeling this? There must be many? Or I must be insane? Is any of this controversial? How can it be? I am sure we all agree that a positive purpose is what we all want?

No matter who we are or what we believe, from Christian to Muslim to atheist to corporate scumbag, love is good. Nothing we should fear. John Lennon sang: “Love is real… love is free.” Even a battery is included

So where’s the love?

I laugh at any possible pretentious allegations, and I would not back down a fight so sure am I in my claim: so where is the love?

From my own perspective it’s completely my fault.

How do you feel?



solomon levi
11-12-2012, 03:23 AM
I'm sure you know my response... purpose is an invention.
As soon as we look for purpose, we invent a problem that needs
to be solved. My solution, literally, is to dissolve the question which
invented/imagined a problem.
I know starving kids, etc is not an imagining. The imagining is that
they SHOULDN'T be starving... that WHAT IS should be other than it is.

If you don't want to participate in a game, don't. Why do we have to
agree or convince anyone else not to play? How is this freedom? It's democracy.
Obviously everyone doesn't want peace or we'd have it. If outside doesn't
reflect the inside, then what magic is there? How will you change the world
if outside doesn't come from inside. And if it does come from inside, why not just
change yourself? Anything else is tyranny, which is fine if you want that, but it's not
a true solution.
So where's the love? Right here. I can't help it if others don't see/feel it. That isn't
saying anything about me. I used to not be able to feel love either. Now it is always and
everywhere, whenever I DESIRE to notice it.

I'll stay out of this discussion since it is not my thing. I have searched the problem thoroughly.
I have not come to this conclusion prematurely. There is only ONE solution for all problems and the
solution is solution. Trying to change the external world is not solution. It's a particular - millions of
unending particulars... but all dissolve in Our Water, which is solutio, and they return to prime matter,
one homogenous substance.
From my view, your view, Dev, is determining the PM into particulars, and particulars divide
into elements which must be at war with one another. That is nature. To resolve the war is
to resolve the elements into quintessence/PM/heaven - by seeing the Oneness that is always ever-present
and unchanging, even though we can imagine it is otherwise.
In quantum mechanics, the observer affects what s/he observes. So yes, the "world" is subjective.
Inner peace is the only peace that can last and see peace externally no matter what. I speak from
experience. If you want, I'll try to "send" this experience to you. Otherwise, all I have are these words,
which are hard to argue with because they are built on a firm foundation. The entire universes agree
with what is, except for man - the only creature/creation that can deny the universe, deny god, deny what is.
So if there is a purpose, you will find it there. Man was made to leave "Eden". No thing else can. That is our purpose.
But you are against that purpose - perhaps in denial of it. We used to think peace was boring, so we left. We can
return anytime we think war/chaos is boring. (there are other options as well)
Anyway, I am telling you what science (quantum physics) and Buddha (co-dependent arising) and Krishnamurti
and Jesus and many others have already said. If you want a different solution, good luck finding it on this planet
of warring elements/earth. It only begins with water/solution. These elements are within you. No sense trying
to remove all the earth from earth!

11-12-2012, 07:29 AM
I would delare my guilt, but it is mine :)

I would like to say, "I know what you are saying Dev", and, "I know what you are saying Sol", but we all feel guilt in our own
personal ways.

If we found perfect peace then complacency would creep in until the road from peace would once again raise its ugly head.
You could liken this to Lucifer's fall from grace.

Perhaps the Black Eyed Peas put it best...

"People killin', people dyin'

Children hurtin', you hear them cryin'?

Can you practice what you preach?

And would you turn the other cheek

Father, Father, Father help us

Send some guidance from above

'Cause people got me, got me questionin'

Where is the love?"


11-12-2012, 10:38 PM
I agree also with you both! :)

Sol: what I wrote was more of a rant... I see your points... I do not really mean to change anything in the sense that perhaps my post suggested. I was more thinking along the lines of the fact that the reason we have a horrible world is because we have ourselves to blame. Therefore I must blame myself. Anything I think, do, feel is all added into the mix. I create the world just as much as the next guy.

I am aware that I am posting to the choir here at the forums, but I was more writing with the general public in mind as an audience and they require a sort of historical perspective to understand my question (where's the love). After all most, if not almost each and everyone of us, show and have love of some sort but I know that very few, very few indeed, show this love on the outside. Following orders or agendas seems stronger than following the heart. So yet again, and I know I have said this many times, we must all get out of the closet. :)

I would be interested to read about your experiences.

G: I don't buy the think that Man fell... I actual think it is more of the fact that we have not grown up yet.


11-12-2012, 11:10 PM
We must all get out of the closet. :)

Sometimes it seems like 'Russian Dolls' type closets :)

I know that very few, very few indeed, show this love on the outside.

Many people generally become uncomfortable when I 'show love'. My love can burn. Unfortunately, I'm not joking.
Most of the time I need to 'modulate' the input/output, to allow for at least a minimum of basic interaction in the common world.

This being said, I know that at least among a few people on this forum (for example), I was fortunate enough to both give and receive (more in personal interactions).

We should really meet more in person, I'd say...

11-12-2012, 11:18 PM
I was more writing with the general public in mind.

Then maybe 'The Hidden Labs' is not the best place to post this :)

11-13-2012, 12:05 AM
He he... just posted it here in order to get an 'outside' of myself view on it. But the Internet reads it hidden or not. The Internet notices all entries...


11-13-2012, 01:04 AM
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix


solomon levi
11-15-2012, 01:21 AM
Forgive me for taking a particular from your thread, but it's an interesting concept worth sharing IMO.
In some views, we are objects - all creations are objects of the one subject/"Creator".
Objects cannot feel guilt. It is imagining ourselves to be subjects that guilt comes in.
Of course it is relative - as dreams within dreams we are subjects on some level, but that is
the "illusory" ego who believes itself to be a subject.
When it is seen that the ego is a program and completely mechanical and cause-effect/reactive, always
a product of its past, then again it cannot be responsible for itself or guilty, anymore than your computer
is guilty for doing what it was programmed to do.
I know this is radical to some - it was hard for me to hear when i first came across it - almost evil sounding.
At some point my whole world was turned upside down and everything seemed backwards.
Anyway, guilt is a program - it doesn't have any actual substance or basis in Reality.
We so well programmed that it seems horrible to not feel guilt, inhuman.
We believe guilt tells us what is right and what is wrong to do.
This is not so. On deeper levels (or shallower?) without thought or past or guilt one
acts naturally in harmony. What is it Patanjali says of yoga/alchemy:
"Yoga is the cessation of thought waves in the mind. Then one rests in the natural (unconditioned) state."

This is why I am reluctant to be willful. Will produces karma.
Acting from What Is produces no karma.

Of course, from true nonduality, guilt or anything else doesn't need to be gotten rid of.

11-15-2012, 06:36 AM
Yes that is a good point. And I have thought along the same lines as well.

I just have a deep problem with being without will. This is I think my main issue with most of the stuff you say Sol (if I have understood you correctly that is).

I don't want to be destined or have a path laid out. Where's the fun in that? I agree one can be 'meant' for something, or have a destiny... but we decide if we grab that destiny... or resist it. But maybe this is not what you mean when you say you are reluctant to be willful?

Creating positive karma (yes it is relative what is positive, but let's not go crazy;)) can only be a good thing?

I guess my issues/problem are metaphorically the same as with people who can't separate anarchy with chaos (which I have no problem understanding).

I will definitely bring up this question about WILL to the Iboga... and writing this now I do recall during one ayahuasca ceremony that I was shown the future or a destiny... not sure that it was unavoidable, but at least a future optional destiny involving children (which I have for the most part of my life been against having), and the other being that my future home was amongst natives/tribal people (or that I once was one... not sure).


solomon levi
11-15-2012, 08:15 AM
The option I prefer (for the moment?) is to be present, which isn't destined
or laid out but spontaneously new/unknown because the knower is absent.
The knower is the willful being; without knowledge there isn't a path/choice to will.
One might as well say that the only choice aligned with God's will is to be present/choiceless -
that is alignment with God/what is/That Thou Art/I AM THAT I AM.
Or we say that every will, the ALL, is God's will.
This is center and circumference of God.
Then there's the between, the area of the circle, the "10,000 things" of Lao Tsu, or the
"one description among billions" of Castaneda:

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery."

11-15-2012, 08:53 AM
Yes if I look at it like that it works well, to be present and awake in the constant presence of direct experiences + adding the notion that if I am indeed a part of 'god' then I am god so in this sense god's will is my will.


03-18-2017, 09:12 AM
“Love is real… love is free.”

Love Is Not Enough (https://markmanson.net/love) by Mark Manson

The above article is technically about couples, but many points can be easily expanded to include all human relationships.

An excerpt from the article:

"In 1967, John Lennon wrote a song called, “All You Need is Love.” He also beat both of his wives, abandoned one of his children, verbally abused his gay Jewish manager with homophobic and anti-semitic slurs, and once had a camera crew film him lying naked in his bed for an entire day.

Thirty-five years later, Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails wrote a songcalled “Love is Not Enough.” Reznor, despite being famous for his shocking stage performances and his grotesque and disturbing videos, got clean from all drugs and alcohol, married one woman, had two children with her, and then cancelled entire albums and tours so that he could stay home and be a good husband and father.

One of these two men had a clear and realistic understanding of love. One of them did not.

One of these men idealized love as the solution to all of his problems. One of them did not.

One of these men was probably a narcissistic asshole. One of them was not.

In our culture, many of us idealize love. We see it as some lofty cure-all for all of life’s problems.

Our movies and our stories and our history all celebrate it as life’s ultimate goal, the final solution for all of our pain and struggle.

And because we idealize love, we overestimate it. As a result, our relationships pay a price.

When we believe that “all we need is love,” then like Lennon, we’re more likely to ignore fundamental values such as respect, humility and commitment towards the people we care about.

After all, if love solves everything, then why bother with all the other stuff — all of the hard stuff?

But if, like Reznor, we believe that “love is not enough,” then we understand that healthy relationships require more than pure emotion or lofty passions.

We understand that there are things more important in our lives and our relationships than simply being in love.

And the success of our relationships hinges on these deeper and more important values."

The song:



03-18-2017, 09:14 PM
Stumble the talk (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4644-Stumble-the-talk).

As for the rest of the argument: if love is not enough then it wasn't "real" love to begin with

"Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it."
― Jalaluddin Rumi

Sure society often speaks of love. But they speak of reason. Peace. Justice. Rights... and a bunch of other ideas as well. Doesn't mean any of those things exist. It is just words. Love is an experience. Not a concept. And "to be in love" is not the same thing as "love" IMO.