PDA

View Full Version : Where is Here - Learning from Death



III
11-17-2012, 10:58 PM
I would bet a whole lot of the people here have had death experiences; NDE as well as the full monty. I have had experiences ranging from an embarassing number of fatal car wrecks to hitting the rocks head first while skiing to opening the door and being shot in the head to just plain terribly sick, way way too many of those. And every time I end up back here, whether it was NDE or dead as a doornail. I've heard similar stories from hundreds of people from my daughters, ex-wife, alchemical partner, best friend in high school, his wife, good friends from college and aquaintances. They all got there in many ways but they pretty much all left the death experience via the same way. They get returned for re-grooving from an "exam" or review or enlightenment experience or whatever with something along the line of "it's not your time, you still have work to do". With a near death experience one comes back in the same body often with damage. With a full death experience one has a discontinuity that skips the death and suddenly, without segue one finds ones self back in the same undamaged body with a strange memory having miraculously had the car stopped at the light instead of splattered all over the intersection. So WHERE IS HERE?

Is there a real physcal Earth the way this experience seems except that you don't go back there after death? Also with the near unanimity of the "You have work to do" or something of the sort, what does that mean?. Alchemy provides that framework for the work that needs to be done to graduate from here. My experience at these death experiences is that all my blockages that prevent the flooding in of true self knowledge at death need removal. I've also had the experience of observing others experiences in this process of death. The holdups appear to be any and all attachements to how one prefers to view the self.

So what are your experiences?

Awani
11-18-2012, 06:48 AM
I have read some books and heard about people returning saying they were asked what have you learned... have you come across this?

Regarding death I wrote something not long ago (as I contemplate this stuff often):


When I finally cross over it is only the first frontier.
On the other side: what and who will be there?
Will it be father? Will he be I? Is this what we face when we die?

Will it be I standing there with a smile?

Personally I have not had any NDE, nor do I know anyone that have had one either... I have only experienced simulated death (as in an ayahuasca ritual).

:cool:

III
11-18-2012, 09:05 PM
I have read some books and heard about people returning saying they were asked what have you learned... have you come across this?


Regarding death I wrote something not long ago (as I contemplate this stuff often):



Personally I have not had any NDE, nor do I know anyone that have had one either... I have only experienced simulated death (as in an ayahuasca ritual).

:cool:

Hi Dev,

Ah, the advanatages of living a life of bad health; gives lots of opportunity for death experiences and returns. http://forum.alchemyforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The other kind of experience I'll describe. I was skiing at Alta on a steep slope that was too icy to ski on as it turned out. I fell at the top of Sunspot and hit the rocks headfirst where the entire bowl funnels through a rock garden. The people who saw the fall called it the most spectacular fall they had ever seen. I was doing full layout triple flips 15 or 20 feet above the slope before bouncing off and doing more, quite accidently.

At the moment of what would have been contact with the rocks (I didn't feel a thing) the bright pearly white sky went black and I had zero body sensation. There was no change of consciousness. There were two beings, energy beings but I could see a whole body human "mask" sort of overlaying them. I could see them as light or I could put a suitable face on them. They asked me if this was a veiled suicide attempt. I said that to the best of my knowledge it wasn't. They then asked if I would be willing to go back into the same life. I agreed that would be good with me. It was during one of the best times of my life. After my agreement the other one asked "where should we put him down". The first one said "How about here?". At that instant I found myself flying along about a foot off the snow at about 50 mph at right angles to and a couple of hundred yards away from where the rocks were, completely out of sight on the other side of a stand of trees. Not one of the dozen people on the slope who were watching the fall could see me. After I stood up and moved they did see me and brought all my various pieces I left all over the slope; gloves, hat, sunglasses, poles.

That is not a standard NDE. There was nothing near about it. I've had lots of those. Many people notice a strange "discontinuity" that they file and forget with the key phrase "I'll think about that later when I have more time"

I've read lots of books by people reporting their experiences and those of others. I collected perhaps a hundred such stories in person from the people experiencing them, of NDE's of the usual sort and those spontaneously happening in life such as I described above. I've also had extremely extensive experience in psychedelic experiences of several varieties including ayahuasca. With high dose acid, AL52 (sunshine, sometimes called death acid), mescaline and mushrooms I have guided perhaps 100 people through such death experiences over some years. Now it happens with the practice of Tantra.


The ONLY experience I had in which those other presences having specific faces was one far out experience. I was at a mountanside camp club in a tent. My wife and I were about 45 minutes into an ecstatic Tantric experience. We were both in trance of course. Suddenly we heard noises. Another camper about 50 feet away had been making vast digestive and post digestive noises of very variety for hours every night. At first the noises seemed the same. Then my wife said "it's the bear. A few night before a bear was dribbling a rubbermaid garbage can against the community kitchen building trying to break it open. Then he tipped over the empty dumpster with a vast crash.

We mantained our focus on the ecstacy and suddenly the tent was like it was illuiminated by a white magnesium flair and I was caught up in the "spiral dance" with my wife. My point of view very quickly became that of looking down on the campgrounds from about 100 feet up. The entire tent meadow was illuminated by that same white glare. I could see the bear circling around the tent meadow at about 100 feet from our tent. A voice behind me said "He (bear) won't bother you as long as the two of you keep doing what you are doing. We were propped by cushions in a joined yubyum asana. I changed my focus and there were two men. Yogis clearly. One was middle aged and very seedy looking and the other was younger and very handsome. I had no idea at the time who they were but they were quite radiant. They invited me to come with them, they had something to show me and then would bring me back. I well knew by then that one must die to go with them. No big deal. We went into the gateway of light.

About 4 hours later I became aware of my body as the light faded out and the ecstacy with it. My wife said I sure hope the bear is gone as I have to pee so bad. We listened for a minute, total quiet, and we both went for the bath house. My wife had her own separate experience

Two weeks later I met a Yogi monk of the Ramakrishna order who became a friend, and he suggested a book that had a picture of two men in it. The picture was of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda, the two men I had seen in my experience.








xxx

solomon levi
11-21-2012, 11:02 PM
Hi III! Really great thread! I just haven't had time to respond.

I've been in some near-death situations. We learned in Ramtha school to see our future
deaths and leave an omen and change/prevent them. I know many people who were
successful in this. I remember one Xmas driving to some friends to celebrate and I
came upon an unexpected sharp curve in the road... I was totally in the other lane and
a car was coming for me in the opposite direction. To this day I can't explain how i
missed that car - it just wasn't possible. It was like i drove through it. All I remember
was being in front of their headlights and then driving down the road without incident.

Other near-death experiences I think are valid are certain psychedelics and OBEs and even
dreams have been called "a little death". Meditation can be included too. So there are many
ways to taste the other side. With psychedelics, people often return running back to
the security of their lives, rather than being sent back by some divine (or otherwise) vision. :)

In my book, light beings (beings in "the light" that people "go to" when they die) are not to be
trusted. I mean, to each his own of course, but "the light" is the visible light spectrum within
the electromagnetic spectrum - the narrowest portion of the EM spectrum in which we perceive
colors with our eyes, and this rainbow of colors when seen as a whole (imagine moving
dimensionally from lines to a plane/area) is seen as white light, "the light".
Look how narrow relative to the rest of the spectrum:

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBhQSEBUUEhQTFRQUEhYQFBYVEhYUFg8WFhUVFBYVFh UXHCYeFxolGRQWHzAiIycpLCwsFSAxNTAqNiYrLSkBCQoKDgwO Gg8PGTUgHiQvKTAsMSkwLSwpKSwpNSktNSwsKSksLCksLDQ1KS ksNSksKSwpLDIpKSwsKSkpLCwpLP/AABEIALIBGwMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAADAAMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABAUBAgMGBwj/xABQEAACAQIDAwQMCwUGBQQDAAABAgMAEQQSIQUTMQYiQVEUFS MyUlNUYXGBkZMWM0JikpSh0dLT4wc0cnOyJEOCorHCRIOjs8NV Y+LxFyU1/8QAGgEBAAMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEBQIGAf/EACsRAQACAgAEBQIHAQAAAAAAAAABAgMEBSFBQhESMVKRE1EUF SIyU2GhBv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A+3SvYEgE2F7C1z5hcgfbXldn8tZpJ5Yzs/FoI8tswiDyZr84AyBculrqzanW3T62taCR2/k8ixfsw/51Hb+TyLF+zD/nVYvRegj9v5PIsX7MP+dR2/k8ixfsw/51WL0ZqCP2/k8ixfsw/wCdR2/k8ixfsw/51Wb1i9BH7fyeRYv2Yf8AOo7fyeRYv2Yf86rJNYvQR+38nkWL9 mH/ADqO38nkWL9mH/OqzWM1BH7fyeRYv2Yf86jt/J5Fi/Zh/wA6rANZoJ2C2o0jZWw88QtfNIIsvRpzJGN9eroqRheVEwjTeYd sxjVyeeoc2IKgCM2kLKSF4WPfDhXp70A0HmJ+V8qlwcK90sO/YhjkZ7C0ZOpWy6a5hfLwrduUsua4w7kBihAzWAVpgWDZOcSI10 0F2tfjXpawaDzkXK5mw8kogJMbxpkDnhIqNdiUGXKH1sCNOPVq/K2UFQcJLznCjnHQZ3TW6d9zCQouCCNav4XBxxi0aqgJLWVQoJP E2A46fZXeg8uOWL3CmDnFVOVZGLKzlUVSGjUayOi3BNgSTaxFV sZtZ42yjDYiQWBzR7rL6OfIp+ymRs6PMXyJmJDFsouSAQCTa5I BI9dM0Ebt/J5Fi/Zh/wA6jt/J5Fi/Zh/zqsXrNBG7fyeRYv2Yf86jt/J5Fi/Zh/zqs0UEbt/J5Fi/Zh/zqO38nkWL9mH/ADqsXovQR+38nkWL9mH/ADqO38nkWL9mH/OqzRQRu38nkWL9mH/Oo7fyeRYv2Yf86rNYvQR+38nkWL9mH/Oo7fyeRYv2Yf8AOqxes0EmHbbswBwmKUEgZmEFlueJtMTb0A1W oooMGvDRzswxkbO9psXGmjsCqSYyTCMEN7p3KDot18TXuq8Fs8 3xKjofEKx/w4na03/jFB3x+0HbC4N87ZkhGMkIYjOYNyrhrHUEytodDT+08Qw2hGQzB Y91GQCcrdknEIcw4E5o4CL8PWaltEWilQD4rBbRjHmviWRf+x9 lO4qXMuJm6FxOCb0LH2LMfslag7TzN2bvczZUxMeCsGOXI+HMh ut7XMssWtr9zFHKKZt8zhmAwkUWIsGIDZ5jnzAaHuMLrr401rL +7SyH/wBREh9EOMjjP+WGmGwu+XaAGpcth184XDItvpu9BQ5QYlkw0hQ 2fLkQ9TuRGh+kwpTA4QYfFCJMwjlgZwpdmtJE6KzXYk3ZZRfry X43vjF4vfQ4S39/LBL6kXsr/wAQHrpjbPNlw0ngz7tj82WN0A95uqDrygxLJhnKGzsBFGeOV5G WJDY8bM4NJJgxhcRCIywjmzwspdnvIEMiSc8nnFY5AT8rMt72F MbaOaTDR9D4gOfRCjzA/TSP21nlKh7GZ1F2hK4lesmFhIV9aqV/xUFWoEGz1xUk0kuZlWVoYQHdFQRgK7gKRz96JBm42UWtVXG49Y 4XlJuqRtLcdKqpbT0gVy2HgzFh40bvwgLnrkbnSH1uWProOewZ myPG5LPDK8JZuLAWeNiekmJ4yT0kmqdSF7njiOjEQhv+ZA2U+s pKvqipva+O3MLuBdgLIvhyMQsaet2UeugnJhFxcsrSXaKN9zEu ZgpZPjZCFIzNnJQX4bo2tc3Y2PMVeWBiSYiChYlmaGS5QlmJJI KyJcm53dzxprZWBEMKRg3yqAW6XbiznzsxLH00ltkbqSLEDgrb iX+VKVGY/wAMgjN+hS9BYqdtrFsqqkZtLM4ijNgcmhZ5LHQ5UDNroSAOmqF SNm92nknPepfDQ+hW7s4/ikUL6IQRxoOc/J0IheBpBOBdXaaRt6w4LNmJDqeHDQHm5bC1PZuOWaJJFuAy3se KHgysOhgQQR1g0zUfDdwxTR/3c+aePqWQW3yevSQdZMp6KCxUvbGJYlIYmKySk3YcYYltvJBfS/OVR86RTYgGqMkoUEsQAASSTYADUknoFS9hRl8+IYENNbICLGOF b7pSOgnMznpBkt8kUHKfk8I1L4bMky84FpXYTEa5JszHOG4XNy L3BBqns7HLNEsi3swvY6Mh4MrDoYEFSOgg0yajR9wxRX+6xJLr 1JOFu6+h0XOPPG5+VQWa44vFLGjO5CqilmJ+SALk11vUeaM4jE ZT8TAwY6/HTCzKpHgx6N53K+Abhzw2yTiBvMUH52qQFmVYF+SHVTZ5LasTe xNhoLnGIh7DIkQt2PwmRmZxAOiZCxJVR8pb2yksLZTmugVh1uL Hp014GgyprNRtmOYJOxmPMsWwx43Qd9CT4UdxbrQrxKsas0GGa 3GoWGg7MvJIW7HOkMYZkEq+OkykFg3FVOmWxIueb12nfES9ji+ 7AD4g9BU97APO9iW6kFvlg1YC2oIeJ2YcMN7hg9l1kgDM6yp8r dqxOSQC5GW2Yix4grYw2IWRFdCGV1Dqw4MCLgjzWNdTUWH+yz5 P7idyU6oZmuzR+ZX1YfOzD5SigtUUUUGDXnsByVMc0UhkBEcZD AKRnlJmIcG+gtiZtNeI1q7icSsaF3YKqjMzE2CgdJNS/hngvKoPeLQZ2fsDdy4hywZZiAq2IyKWkkcE31vJK56NLVxwHJo pgnw7uGaRXVpAtuK7tDYk6hFTp4rXX4Z4LyqD3i0fDPBeVQe8W g3i2Gewzh3a7SJIJHUWu8pZndQTpz3JAv1UxsjZ5hiCswZyzyO wFgzyO0jEC5sLtYC50ApT4Z4LyqD3i0fDPBeVQe8WgxsvYLROp ZwyQq8eHUKQUR2B5xJNyFVUFraKT8qwf2pgN9EUzZTzWVgLlHR g6NbpsyqbdNrUj8M8F5VB7xaPhngvKoPeLQdMHs+UyiWdoyURo 41jDBRmKl3JY3JORQB0C+pvpTdbix/+6kfDPBeVQe8Wj4Z4LyqD3i0HIbEmKLA7xdjoVHNVt5KiEFY2u 2Ud6oYi+YXsFvpeqN8M8F5VB7xaPhngvKoPeLQN7U2eZQhRskk b7yNiuYA5WQhluLqVZgRcHW4IIFLJs6aR0bENHljbOscYazuLh WdnOoF7hQBqAbmwFa/DPBeVQe8Wu8e34XiklhdJVjVmbIwOoUta/QbCgpCuWKwyyIyOLq6lGHhKwsR7DUpOVsJB7/mh2bubnKsdw78NVDAi/SeFA5WwXI7pcHKw3bXXnBCTYaAMwU9RPVrQHYGLy7vfx5bZd9k bf5eF7Xyby3y+F9cnRVTCYVYo1jQWVFCKOpQLAewVJPLCAWJLA EZr5G5guFJfTm2ZlGutzraxt3flLCsZkcuihzGc0bgqwXPlIte 5HDrJAGpoKtJ7T2cJkADFHVhJG4FzG4vY26RYkEdIYjppA8scP 4TZbE58jZDbJwa1jfex2694tr1wk5c4cNxbLzwTla+ZCgsq251 wzH/lnrFAzNsueYZJ3i3WmdY0cGcD5LFmORD0qLkjTNa97IFQ5eWEA ViN42S4a0baEWA1IsAxIAPA+o0xsjbyTozWKZC2YNcWUM6hr2s Qd2fRYigqUrtHZ6zRlGuNQysujRspDI6kg6hgDqCNNQRpU8cs8 F5VB7xaz8M8F5VB7xaDPYuMIymWBRwMixNnPnVGcqrec5h5uiq GAwKwxhEvYX1JuWJJZmYnixYkk9JJqd8M8F5VB7xaPhngvKoPe LQWaKjfDPBeVQe8Wj4Z4LyqD3i0D20dnCZbElSrB0dbBonHBlJ BF9SLEEEEgggkUnucZ3u8w38zdSX93ntf/F6uitfhngvKoPeLR8M8F5VB7xaB7Z2A3S2zM7Fi7u1s0jG1yba DQAAAAAAAcKbqN8M8F5VB7xaPhngvKoPeLQWaXx2CWWNkcXVhY 6kEdIII1BBAII1BAI4VO+GeC8qg94tY+GeC8qg94tA1gcPOjZZ JEkQDRshSXzZrHIx6yAvoqhXncFy/wUuJOHWdN6LZVJ0lBFwUbvW9F76cK9FQYIotWaXxOPjjKh3VS7 ZUBNsx0Fh6yB6SOsUHe1FqTm2zCjMrSoGQBmBYXUEgDT0sunz1 6xfHbyDnd2j5qCRrMCFQgENcdFmU36mHWKB21FqM1GagLUWpRd swlGcSoUQ5WYMCFOmnpNxbruLca6QY+NzZHVjkWTQ35r3yN6Dl Nj5qDvai1GagGgLUWrNFBi1avGCCDqCLEHUEHiK1mxKqVDMAXb It/lNYtYeeyk+qtMJtCOUExurgHKSpvY6G2nmIPoIoOb7HhbjFGbX IvGpte9+I+cfaaw+xoSbmKMnNnuY1JzeFcjj56cvWaBMbHhy5R GgFsvNRVsLhtCBpqAdOkA1z2dsOKGPdot1zZ9QurXBDWAABFha wHCuh2xDze6Jz2aNOcOcytkZR5w3N9JA4kVpFt2BsuWaM52KJZ hzyLaD6S+nMvWLh0GyYc2bdR5soS+7W+UZbLe3AZV0+aOoVq2x oTe8UZzEs1415xJBJOmpuAfVTmasigl4vk3BI6OyC6EsAAoVjp qRb5o4WvaxuNKfhwqp3qqt+NgBfUno85J9ZrRNoRmRow6l1F2W 4uo01I9Y+kOsVzw+14Xy5JEbOSq2YHMVGYgf4dfRrQN2otRmoB oC1FqzXKDFK4ujBhdluNdVYqw9IYEeqg6WotRmrNBi1FqzXIYl S5TMMyhWZelQ2YKT5iVb2Gg6WotRes0GLUWrTEYlUGZ2Ci4W5N hdiFUeskD10pLt2Bc2aaMZGCNdxzSb6H6LejK3UaDvDgI0dnVF DyEF2AGaSwsMzcTYAAX4WpisZqzQFS9rbG3zKc+UBTG4y3zozR uwBuMpvGBfXQnTgRRljzAg31FtCVPqI1HqpXtSnhTfWJvx0E2f k0zSZ96AwcTL3K4EtowxPOuyER97cEZzztFsth+TCjeRb0kbl1 7wAqcQoR3LA2bWIkKALZjqRltb7Up4U31ib8dajYsdyby3IAJ7 ImuQL2Hf+c+2gW2xsDfsG3jIQjIMpOmYMCeI1s32UxsrZQgRkD FgWzC/yeaqkDU8Spb0sa37Up4U31ib8dHalPCm+sTfjoJsHJtlTKJRcb rITH3ogKmIEB+dwbNwvm0y2FNbP2QIjo5J3SRnQDvWlbPpwuZD p0WpjtSnhTfWJvx0nHspeyH50vxMf/ETeHN056BJORYGXu0nMCBdTplD3PfdLsHPnUV6UUn2pTwpvrE3 46O1KeFN9Ym/HQO3ovSXalPCm+sTfjo7Up4U31ib8dBtjsCJMlzbJIJP4rKy28 3fVIi2AoTcvIWLiMghMt4sMYwENjqSCATfXMdABaqvalPCm+sT fjpOXZadkRjNN8VL/AMRN4cHz/PQc9m8md1KJN67NazXJ5/xl78756e6WrlJ9qU8Kb6xN+OpnKHB7uAsjzA349kTHoPW9Bti+ S4fTeEKzSbwZbl1eff5VN+YQ2l9dCdL2IXXk7lkTNNdnK5rRAC RYDEyAWbmHuYudb52sBzcthdkpbvpvrE346w2xYyQby3F7Hsib S/G3PoJ2M5JiR2YyuM77wgE2uA4A77oz/wCUVYwGG3cSJmLZFC3PE2Fq5dqU8Kb6xN+OjtSnhTfWJvx0Ccu wM0jsX5rhwFy6qJd2JeeDrcR6aaZj31gBzg2Tu2i3kmZzMXuEy hyMM0IFrnLzFve/EdAIAodqU8Kb6xN+OtH2JGSCTLdTcf2ibQ2K3HP6iR66CfieSo kclpDYybywDAnnA5WOezAKCgsBZWI141ZwUG7jRCxYqioWPF7A DMfObX9dce1KeFN9Ym/HR2pTwpvrE346ByouM2WAiJn77EvKLqWVy5lkyMqsLgZiQb8UU +aumytnB4ImZ5izRIxPZE2pKgk9/wBdMPsWM2uZTY5h/aJtDYi45/UT7aBTY/J0Ydy4kZsy2IYnnG0eupOt0c+mVvXavSXalPCm+sTfjo7Up4U3 1ib8dA5ekcRCEkaUsRnSOC1r2O8YKfWZR7K27Up4U31ib8dayb FjYWJlIuDriJuIIIPf9BAPqoOGwdhdjZgJGcNl0YnmlQQSLk8b i/oqteku1KeFN9Ym/HR2pTwpvrE346DfaOC3sZS9rlTfj3rK3+2oWP5O5c0hmyhd5k7 lmyLMZDICM3PN5dDpbKNDzr2u1KeFN9Ym/HWsuxI2BBMpB4g4ibX/AD0CWK5Mh5EcSOu7WNVAJIAjJPXre4B06BVsUomzFBBDS3BvrP KR6wXsfXTlAVL24shCZA5XMc4jfI55py65lNs1rgMD6rg1KKDy 64nHgBRGlwg1azi4QG2YSAuS1wTlW3n410OKx413cRGg0XXvec w7rrqNF0vcC/TXpKKCDLisXu0YRpmMYMgsGIcsAQo3oGgubZjx46WJsrH4l3Xe RoEO8Rit9GQqobVr2LB7Cx6Dc1eooCko/wB5f+TF/XNTtJR/vL/yYv65qB2pXKCOYou4zZt4C2VlXudjnHO+URovUxUmwBqrRQeZx m0sZHdjEhRc7kDXRTKVUNnvmISIA5TcynQZbVW2RLMc4nVVIYB SvBhkUn5ROjZhfS/VVCigKk7XVy9ozaQ4XEBDe1nJgCm/Rraq1TsbFmmVbkZoJluDYrdoBcHoIoIrzYsTGRebESoKysh3S3 INwH5pAObQm+norO0Jp2wbHEIqNm0APmbiLsB6cxv1DhTL8lib gzykG2a+pYhApPG3OOrCxvoBa1KbR2NuMO5MjyM1gWcknm70jU k+H9nRwoPVrwqdtvfZUMABYPcg8Cu7kHO1FxmKGwI4VRXhWaDy qNjkEjZFYswYC2a3c1WygzABcycLj4wm5tzuz4zHBvio8pFyRq V7qV4bwZiIwptcXueFrV6SigU2QjjDxCW+8ESCS5uc4QZrm5ub 31uaboooCg0UGgS2J+7Q/wAmP+hadpLYn7tD/Jj/AKFp2g8xiDjUlmaNc6s67oEhgqhG6DIuW7hRpoAb2JvXNZ8cGd t3e50GhVbJHYKu91GYML3XS5t0H1dFBEx+Jxga0UUTLkvcuQQ+ UnLa4uLoVvp8ah+S1KPjMfk0hiJv0mxIzOBdRIQDZFJ5x+N+aa 9NRQJ7LlkZLzKFfM4sOBUMcp4nitumnKKKAooooCiiigKK0lYg HKAT0Am1/XY2pTsifxSe/wD06B6ikOyJ/Ep779OjsifxKe+/ToH6KQ7In8Snvv06OyJ/Ep779OgfpKP95f8Akxf1zVr2RP4lPffp1wXfiVn3SaoiW33gs5 P9388eygrUUh2RP4lPf/p0dkT+JT336dA/RSHZE/iU99+nR2RP4lPffp0D9JS/vMf8mb+uCteyJ/Ep779OuL78yq+6Tmo6W33HM0Z8X8w+2gq1H5V/u59P+1qZ7In8Snvv06lcpp5uxzeJAL9E1/kt8yg9GvCs0guInt8Unvv06OyJ/Ep779OgfopDsifxKe+/To7In8Snvv06B+ikOyJ/Ep779OjsifxKe+/ToH6DSHZE/iU99+nR2RP4lPff/Cg22J+7Q/yY/wChaamlyqWPBQWNuNgL1MwG/jijQxISiKhO+OuVQL/F+auskkzAgwoQQQRv+IOhHeUHHBcqYJEV94q51zqrFbkXIuMpI YHKbWJvbSt8DykglCWkUM4WyFhm54uosOJt1Ukdh8P7MotqAMV IoUgsQwAWwYFjY8RfStsLsjdsrJhkBTvf7S5C83KSAVsCRxPTx NzQPbT2yIWUMjkFWcsuQhAgBYkFgdAb6A8DXfD44OhcXyguOHE IzKSOsHLcdYIpWVZWILQRkgMBec6BhZh3nSBRCkiRiNYIwiqI1 UTGwUDKB3nCwtQLYTlfC+TvgXaJVBAJO+zZNUJX5Bvrp08au1D OzCSpOGiuoyqd+bqAYyADk01hj+gKd7In8Snvv06B+uGNxaxRs 7d6ilj12Avp1ml+yJ/Ep779OuWJSWRcrwRstwbGbQlSGFxk11A081ByXlXAWVcxu24sM p17Ivk/0N+rTrFWBUKHYihh/ZYl5xNxKSVzFCxUZRbWNNBbvRV4UBRRRQFFFFAUUUUBRRRQFFF FAUVxnxiJ37qv8TBf9aX7dRnvSz/y43cfSUEfbQPUUj2fIe9gf0uyIPsLN9lY/tDeJT6cv4KB+o/Kr93Pp/2tTPYDnvp5PQiog/pLD6VA2NF8oFz/AO47ScQQdHJA0J4ddA6vCtqQ7TRjvc6fwSyIPYrW+yjtcw72eY eYmN/60J+2gfopDseccJYz/FCb+1ZAPso3uIHyIm9Errf1FD/rQP0Uh2wcd9BL/haNh/WCfZWe3CDvhKv8UMoA/wAWW320D1FJptiEmwljv1Z1B9hN6bVgdRqKDNFFFAUUUUBRRRQ FFFFAUUUUBRRRQFFFFAVg1msGg5zYlUF2ZVHWxCj7aV7cx/Jzv/LikcfSVcv21+esbId/I12zb2TnZjm79um9607Mk8ZJ7x/vq3GrM8/FcjUmY8fF+jExjEXEUnryD/dcVzMuIPBIk87Ozn6KqB/mr879lyeMk94/31g4yTxknvG++vv4SfuTqTHV+iexZT301v5cSr9smejtSp79pX/ilcA/4VIX7K/OZxsnjJPeP99aNjpPGSe8f767jRtPVWtTyv0pBs6JNUjRT1qgB 9oF6ZvX5hTHSeMk94/313XGSeMk943319nQtHcqXzxTo/S96K/NYxsnjJPeN99d0xT+G/02++uJ07R1UrcTpXtl9txmzMSJJGicW5xiBZjkMiNnuDo1pFjK 30AZxpSk2ysaWYq0YLOJRdsyhlSML8gN3ym+tiOgV8jXEv4b/Tb767JO3hP9NvvqK2CY6op4vSO2X17F4TF7uNwVMscUoe2mcko UAUc0myei/RY2rTZuBxZcSM5VXkDOrZA2RSAgOVLXKA3AsOHA3r5UszeE30m ++qWAFxqSfWaqZrfTjxl1j4tTJbyxWX2m9F6+X4bDqeiqcGCTw V9lY2fjFMPrWZamO/ne9vWCa8kuzo8veJ9EUhisEnQq+ys+v/T4bT4fTn/F+mtNur3ToCLEXHURf/WlG2NCf7qMHrCBT7Vsa+c4qEDgKlsPOfaav4uNY8kcqSuV4Xa3 c+tdqV+S0y+iaQ29TMR9lHYUg72d/wDGkbD7FU/bXyFvSfpH765sT1t9I/fVmOJVntSfk957ofYcuIHyoW9Mbp9oZv8AStlxE3TEh/hlv9jItfF2c9bfSb765vIfCb6TffUkb0T0dRwW898PuD4tgPip D6Mh/wB9chtdelJl9MEp+1VI+2vhrzN4TfTb764vO3hP9NvvqauzE9E kcCvPfHw+9pteI6bxL9RYKfYbGmRJfhw66/OOJxb27+T3jffVT9nR/wD2eHsSMzvextm7lIdeup638z5m4FkxYrZZvHKJn4ffaKwKzXb z4ooooCiiigKwazWDQfmrG/GyfzZP62rhXqJP2fY6RmdILq7u6nexC4LEg2L3Gh6a5N+zzHBg pg1YEgb6HULa/wAv5wrVrlp4RzbFc1PCObzlYNeo/wDxrtDyf/rQ/jrnF+zrHsLiDS5HxsI4Eg8X6xXUZafd8vlpMerzBrm1epk/ZxjwQDB3xyju0PGxbw9NFNB/ZjtDyce+h/HUtc+P3Qzslon0eWSu6Vfg/ZrtA6iDpK/HQjVSVPy+sGurfs6x62vBxYKO6wnU8OD13Oxi90MrNjtPpDzwp hKvD9m2P8R/1ofx1tDyCxpLAQaqcrd1h0OVW8PqYVFbNjnuYuTVzTP7ZRkrul V5OQuNQXaA2Fv72E8TbgH89MLyDx3iD72H8yqd8lZ6qttPP7JR lqrs7gK6x8i8YSRuDdbX7pD0i/jNafh5L4qNSzQNZQSbSQnQa8BJrWZtRNo/TzSa2pmrk8ZpJrC1Uw9cINh4kcYH+nD+ZTcODmDZdxJcAN30PA kga7y3Qa8hvaee8T5aTL1GvWa+p1e9qdi6fkWRIyWhkAUFjzoT YAXP97S02AmYXEEmvz4fza8/j4XuRPPFPw28OWkesvP4upL8a9Didi4gtlED3Klu/htYEDjvLdIpNuSeL8Q3vIfzK3NbS2KxzpPw18W1hiOdoRmri9W o+S2LZQwgazAMLyQjQi40Mmlc35J4vMF3DXILDukPBSoOu8+cK 0aa2WO2ViNzB74+URq5PXoDyLxniD72H8yuEfI3GOoKwGxvxkh HA24F/NVquDJHbKSN3X98fLz8lcHr0U3IrGAqDAbu2Ve6w6kKz+H1Ka1 f9n+O8R/1YfzKtUxX+yeu9rfyR8vJYirX7O//AOnhv43/AOzJTB/Z9jnvlg4EqbywjUceL1U5I8icXhsfh5ZosqLIwJ3kbWvFIBorE 8TV3HEx6m3va1tbJWuSJmaz1/p9gFZrArNTPAiiiigKKKKAooooJW2tvx4bJn1aRwircA2LKrNr xAzD1sB00lg+UAkmQGIBgd0W3mbIZFZ1CjKMwKxC50sdLGxIvS wK1swBsQRcA2INwRfgbgH1Vxi2ZEpUrHGCoIUhFBQMbkKQNAST w66Cc/K/DjpfiQe5SWAUBix5ui2N79QNWhS52bF4uP6C9Vurq0pgCgzaii igKwazRQQMZymKSOhi1S7C75c8aoztIOaR8hgBe5IN8orbB7dT LJIyFQd3JzbyGQS9yjuoFw/MAK6201qkdkxa9yj1feHua85xqHOmranXjrW6YCMAgIgDNnayK MzXBzGw1a4Bvx0oFMByghmkyIWLWLXKOqsAcpysQAdb+w1TtXC LBIpuqIDa1woB6+IrvQFqLUUUBS+PxYijZyCQovZRdmPAKo6SS QB5zTFaSxBlKsAVIsQRcMDxBB4ig843Kfeczcg7zPEA0pXnoq7 5JOZdAMxAOtyOAuLutymhRUvnGaKOVQI2bSTRF5oIzGx0+aad7 TQ2I3UViFUjdpZgvegi2oFhYdFq6yYJGNyqk6alQTpe3HqufbQ abPx6Txh0vlJI1UqdDbUHUUzatYYQosoAHUAAPYK3oC1FqKKAq TtnbBgIsgcZXkbnlWVI1zOwXKQQBYakaso6b1WrRoQTewuRlJs LkdV+rzUELD7czzrG8QDJJkJEmYJIUmtk5ozrkRgSbWLWtoSOp 5XYcdL8bfFSac3PmOmgy86/UDVGHZkSFSscalAVUqigoCbkKQNASTw66z2tj8WnV3i9WXq6tP RQMCs2oooCiiigKKKKAooooCiiigKKKKAooooCiiigKKKKAooo oCiiigKKKKAooooCiiigKKKKAooooCiiigKKKKAooooCiiigKK KKD//Z

And notice its location in the middle. In physical reality our bodies/desntities are in the
hertzian portion, or what is here called "radio waves". Then there is infrared which is moving
into more psychic areas of the brain and a realm where ghosts live or people who have died
and not gone to "the light" for whatever reason. Anyway, these three portions of the spectrum
relate to the lower three chakras and endocrine glands. Where we want to go is beyond those
three, beyond "the light", or as Castaneda said "to dart past the Eagle and be free." Castaneda
called the EM spectrum the Eagle's emanations. Don Juan describes the Eagle as a lightning flash
which illuminates a white beak and talons and separates the two black "wings" (relative to the
white light of the visible portion of the spectrum, the areas on either side, when seen as a whole,
appear black. When sorcerers saw a dead person's awareness being drawn to the Eagle's beak
and devoured, they were seeing awareness go to "the light" and be stripped of charge/polarity,
and thus the loss of individual identity, or awareness as an individual existence - because most
people identify themselves by charge, by attachment and repulsion - I like this, I don't like this...
this is the level of ferrous magnetism (see the thread in practical on electricity and magnetism).

I guess i should take a break. I have a lot to say on this subject.
But my point about the light and light beings - you know we have a "light body" - we have
a body for each of the 7 levels of the spectrum. Anyway, our personal light body is also the
ego, and it doesn't want to be exposed and it will do all kinds of things to prevent this. So we
don't even have to imagine someone else doing something to us - some evil or alien beings in
"the light"... it is our own "light body" that strips us when we go to the light. It will use whatever
visions in our neuronets it needs to, whether that is an image of loved ones or Jesus or whoever.
I'm sure this has been taken advantage of by other beings, the gods, etc... but the point is, if we
don't know ourselves, there's no chance of being free from others influences. A warrior assumes
responsibility for everything in his/her life. We can't change what we blame others for.

Anyway, there is an agenda to send people to the light and be stripped and reincarnated/recycled ignorance, etc.
It doesn't matter if it is a nefarious organisation or alien gods or your own ego... the ego is the only thing we
can really do something about. (I don't consider protests and revolutions or civil wars or voting as "doing something" -
that's exactly what the agenda wants us to do. That just perpetuates the issue via divide and conquer. Union/dissolution
is the only solution.)

solomon levi
11-21-2012, 11:37 PM
"You have work to do" means more circulation/raising of vibration/frequency
into the fourth, fifth, etc.
The circulation has to occur in an hermetically sealed flask.
If the flask breaks or the seal is broken (death of the body),
then the work must be began anew from the start.

But what it really amounts to IMO (raising frequency) is becoming a superconductor
(see electricity and magnetism). This is how one goes beyond the light into "higher"
realms of freedom.

"You have work to do" is relevant to "weighing one's soul against the feather of truth/Maat".
As a ferrous magnetic being, we are heavy, attracted... as diamagnetic we repel all fields
and are "light" (weight). Superconductors levitate. :)

a different link to magnetism, just as good:
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/MagneticMatls.htm

alchemy teaches this pairing (of electrons) as two fish, two dogs, etc...
Castaneda also teaches it in pairing items of the tonal.

"We can say that the tonal is like the top of this table. An island. And on this island we have everything. This island is, in fact, the world.
There is a personal tonal for every one of us, and there is a collective one for all of us at any given time which we can call the tonal of the times."
He pointed to the rows of tables in the restaurant.
"Look! Every table has the same configuration. Certain items are present on all of them. They are, however, individually different from each other. Some tables are more crowded than others. They have different food on them, different plates, different atmosphere, yet we have to admit that all the tables in this restaurant are very alike.
The same thing happens with the tonal. We can say that the tonal of the times is what makes us alike in the same way it makes all the tables in this restaurant alike. Each table separately, nevertheless, is an individual case just like the personal tonal of each of us. But the important factor to keep in mind is that everything we know about ourselves and about our world is on the island of the tonal. See what I mean?"

"If the tonal is everything we know about ourselves and our world, what then is the nagual?"
"The nagual is the part of us which we do not deal with at all."
"I beg your pardon?"
"The nagual is the part of us for which there is no description: no words, no names, no feelings, no knowledge."
"The nagual is there," he said. "There, surrounding the island. The nagual is there, where power hovers.
"We sense, from the moment we are born, that there are two parts to us. At the time of birth, and for a while after, we are all nagual. We sense, then, that in order to function we need a counterpart to what we have. The tonal is missing and that gives us, from the very beginning, a feeling of incompleteness.
"Then the tonal starts to develop and it becomes utterly important to our functioning; so important that it opaques the shine of the nagual. It overwhelms it. From the moment we become all tonal, we do nothing else but to increment that old feeling of incompleteness which accompanies us from the moment of our birth, and which tells us constantly that there is another part to give us completeness.
"From the moment we become all tonal we begin making pairs. We sense our two sides, but we always represent them with items of the tonal. We say that the two parts of us are the soul and the body. Or mind and matter. Or good and evil. God and Satan.
"We never realize, however, that we are merely pairing things on the island, very much like pairing coffee and tea, or bread and tortillas, or chili and mustard. I tell you, we are weird animals. We get carried away, and in our madness we believe ourselves to be making perfect sense."

You may want to read the whole chapter for greater context.
We can basically understand the tonal as the ego, a guardian that has become a guard:
http://aquakeys.com/toltec/tales-of-power-part_2-chapter_05-island-of-tonal

solomon levi
11-22-2012, 01:06 AM
The tonal is also somewhat synonymous with our reason.
Reason cannot know the nagual.
"The affairs of the nagual can be witnessed only with the body, not the reason." - don Juan

continuing...
"Let's say that the tonal , since it is keenly aware of how taxing it is to speak of itself, has created the terms "I," "myself," and so forth as a balance and thanks to them it can talk with other tonals , or with itself, about itself.
Now when I say that the tonal forces us to do something, I don't mean that there is a third party there. Obviously it forces itself to follow its own judgments.
On certain occasions, however, or under certain special circumstances, something in the tonal itself becomes aware that there is more to us. It is like a voice that comes from the depths, the voice of the nagual . You see, the totality of ourselves is a natural condition which the tonal cannot obliterate altogether, and there are moments, especially in the life of a warrior, when the totality becomes apparent. At those moments one can surmise and assess what we really are.
When we die, we die with the totality of ourselves. A sorcerer asks the question. "If we're going to die with the totality of ourselves, why not, then, live with that totality?"

It's a shame that only people who have read Castaneda will understand the syntax.
Outside of the Ramtha school, Castaneda is one of the most complete systems I've found.
Nonduality and Krishnamurti obliterate all systems. Ramtha and Castaneda are "systemless systems" -
like Gurdjieff's fourth way. It's the same with the poles that I am trying to inform people of...
there's positive and negative... then one who starts the initiatory path becomes bipolar and this
is very confusing and dissolving and catalystic. Then the fourth way is to be All, positive, negative and
neutral and All. (this my own experience and definition - not G's fourth way definition particularly.)

ok - I found some CC quotes on the proper tonal...

"A warrior treats his tonal in a very special manner. Life can be merciless with you if you are careless with your tonal .
To see a man as a tonal entails that one cease judging him in a moral sense, or excusing him on the grounds that he is like a leaf at the mercy of the wind. In other words, it entails seeing a man without thinking that he is hopeless or helpless. You know exactly what I am talking about. One can assess people without condemning or forgiving them."

"You say you think there might be a great many reasons for one's condition. I find that there is only one, our tonal . It is not that our tonal is weak because, for example, we drink; it is the other way around, one drinks because one's tonal is weak. That weakness forces one to be what he is. This happens to all of us, in one form or another.
But aren't I also justifying our behavior by saying that it's our tonal ? No, I'm giving you an explanation that you have never encountered before. It is not a justification or a condemnation, though. Our tonals are weak and timid. All of us are more or less in the same boat.
There is no need to treat the body in an awful manner, but the fact is that all of us have learned to perfection how to make our tonal weak. I have called that indulging. Only a warrior has a "proper tonal." The average man, at best, can have a "right tonal."

"A proper tonal is a tonal that is just right, balanced and harmonious. There are, roughly speaking, two sides to every tonal. One is the outer part, the fringe, the surface of the island. That's the part related to action and acting, the rugged side. The other part is the decision and judgment, the inner tonal , softer, more delicate and more complex. The proper tonal is a tonal where the two levels are in perfect harmony and balance.
For a proper tonal everything on the island of the tonal is a challenge. Another way of saying it is that for a warrior everything in this world is a challenge. The greatest challenge of all, of course, is his bid for power. But power comes from the nagual , and when a warrior finds himself at the edge of the day it means that the hour of the nagual is approaching, the warrior's hour of power."

(my words following)
"The edge of the day" is a fractal that happens on many levels... day and night, wake and dream, life and death...

returning to quotes:
"To be a warrior means to be humble and alert. When you come to see me you should come prepared to die. If you come here ready to die, there shouldn't be any pitfalls, or any unwelcome surprises, or any unnecessary acts. Everything should gently fall into place because you're expecting nothing.
It's not that you have to live with all this. You are all this. A warrior doesn't ever leave the island of the tonal . He uses it. This is your world. You can't renounce it. It is useless to get angry and feel disappointed with oneself. All that that proves is that one's tonal is involved in an internal battle; a battle within one's tonal is one of the most inane contests I can think of. The tight life of a warrior is designed to end that struggle. From the beginning I have taught you to avoid wear and tear.
The warrior's way is harmony--the harmony between actions and decisions, at first, and then the harmony between tonal and nagual.
It is the tonal that has to relinquish control. The tonal is made to give up unnecessary things like self-importance and indulging, which only plunge it into boredom. The whole trouble is that the tonal clings to those things when it should be glad to rid itself of that crap. The task then is to convince the tonal to become free and fluid. That's what a sorcerer needs before anything else, a strong, free tonal . The stronger it gets the less it clings to its doings, and the easier it is to shrink it."

I could post this next quote in the secrecy thread as well:
"The nagual , once it learns to surface, may cause great damage to the tonal by coming out without any control. Your tonal has to be convinced about all of this with reasons, your nagual with actions, until one props the other. As I have told you, the tonal rules, and yet it is very vulnerable. The nagual , on the other hand, never, or almost never, acts out; but when it does, it terrifies the tonal .
The tonal must be protected at any cost. The crown has to be taken away from it, but it must remain as the protected overseer. Any threat to the tonal always results in its death. And if the tonal dies, so does the whole man. Because of its inherent weakness the tonal is easily destroyed, and thus one of the balancing arts of the warrior is to make the nagual emerge in order to prop up the tonal . I say it is an art, because sorcerers know that only by boosting the tonal can the nagual emerge. That boosting is called personal power."

Hope I'm not going off topic. I'll stop and wait for a reply. :)

solomon levi
11-22-2012, 01:32 AM
Sorry for going back on my word... one more thing very pertinent IMO:

" If there are too many unnecessary items on your island you won't be able to sustain the encounter with the nagual . No one is capable of surviving a deliberate encounter with the nagual without a long training. It takes years to prepare the tonal for such an encounter. Ordinarily, if an average man comes face to face with the nagual the shock would be so great that he would die. The goal of the warrior's training then is not to teach him to hex or to charm, but to prepare his tonal not to crap out. A most difficult accomplishment. A warrior must be taught to be impeccable and thoroughly empty before he could even conceive witnessing the nagual .
The island of the tonal has to be swept clean and maintained clean. That's the only alternative that a warrior has. A clean island offers no resistance; it is as if there were nothing there.
Nothing that we may have gained in the course of our lives can reveal to us the designs of power. A warrior must struggle like a demon to shrink his tonal ; and yet at the very moment the tonal shrinks, the warrior must reverse all that struggle to immediately halt that shrinking.
After the tonal shrinks, the warrior is closing the gate from the other side. As long as his tonal is unchallenged and his eyes are tuned only for the tonal 's world, the warrior is on the safe side of the fence. He's on familiar ground and knows all the rules. But when his tonal shrinks, he is on the windy side, and that opening must be shut tight immediately, or he would be swept away.
As a rule the tonal must defend itself, at any cost, every time it is threatened; so it is of no real consequence how the tonal reacts in order to accomplish its defense. The only important matter is that the tonal of a warrior must become acquainted with other alternatives. What a teacher aims for, in this case, is the total weight of those possibilities. It is the weight of those new possibilities which helps to shrink the tonal . By the same token, it is the same weight which helps stop the tonal from shrinking out of the picture."

as with nonduality, there is no killing of the tonal or erasing it... it's not a bad thing.
this is alchemy too - volatilising the fixed AND fixing the volatile; not just one way.

solomon levi
11-22-2012, 03:40 AM
"We require a Mercury that is Homogenous, having no opposite nature, undetermined to mineral, animal or vegetable kingdoms." - Sendivogis
in relation to ferrous magnetism. This really doesn't describe diamagnetism either. It is beyond even superconducting perhaps.

Ezalor
11-22-2012, 08:30 AM
Actually, if one has even at least a very minimal spiritual consciousness, and knows the their lie is about more than matter, then they all "qualify" for the help of those who we can call, for simplicity, "protector beings". Now in fact it isn't a type or class of beings but a relative role. There are many different beings that can take on the protector role for one reason or another. Some are connected to you directly, while others are unrelated. Actually, it is also possible that your own "true self" breaks through for a moment, and you experience it as a different entity.

We also have to note, that there is no single reality, so something we experience in one way, might look different for others. It is even possible that two outside observers of the same event will see a different version of the reality. So, with the example of III's skiing fall - it is possible that in his reflection of reality he did indeed change position in space and was removed from time for a bit, while from the view of an outside observer, there was no anything strange or special in how he landed where he did.

I personally had a few such as well. A few notable ones:
- Once I was stepping down from the catwalk onto the road at the pedestrian crossing when the light went green... and instantly "someone" (non-pysical) grabbed my shoulders and pulled me back onto the catwalk. A fragment of second later a car, speeding through the red light without slowing down ran through the crossing, with its mirror touching the surface of my clothes.
- One time I tried to quickly cross a street when I saw a car is coming. But it was winter and the ground was icy, and I realized that I started sliding on my feet and that I can't stop, and will most likely fall, right under the wheels of the car. Suddenly time slowed down, and as I slided in front of the car, some force stabilized me, gave back my balance and pushed a little on me, so I could jump, and safely land on the other side of the street. The driver hit the breaks but the ground was covered with ice so it was pretty ineffective, and he barely missed me.

Regarding death, I didn't have any actual NDE in this incarnation, but I have pretty clear memories about a few of my deaths from past incarnations, including the part that comes after the body's death.

zoas23
11-22-2012, 09:03 AM
My only "Near Death Experience" was quite bizarre... because it was due to a bad/wrong diagnosis... and because it lasted for several months instead of being a "quick accident".

I had a horrible pain in my arm, an oncologist gave me a bad diagnosis: he said I had a terminal cancer... and that I only had a few months left.

I lived like that for 4 months. Thinking that there was nothing else to do, but to accept death.

Finally, my cousin, who is a doctor, made a lot of exams on me and found out that all I had was a vein in my arm that had become HUGE... so I had a surgery and the vein got removed. It was actually a very silly surgery. I had no cancer. I didn't even have something that was dangerous.

Anyway, I lived for 4 months thinking that I was about to die and that each day could be the last day.

To be honest, when I was told that I was NOT going to die soon... and that what I had was actually very simple and not dangerous at all... I felt very confused, shocked, not specially "happy"... and even a bit disturbed and upset... I even felt swindled.

It's not that I wanted to die, but I had spent 4 months getting ready for it.... and I had reached by then a perfect peace of mind. A perfect enlightment... I had a big smile on my face, I had absolutely no fear to die.
I wasn't specially anxious to die, I was mostly happy to have lived my life as it was... I was quite young by then, but I really was not feeling that my life had been "short"... I mostly felt that I had lived a "complete" life.

It's funny, it became harder to accept that I was NOT going to die, than the (false) knowledge that I was about to die.

solomon levi
11-22-2012, 10:29 AM
I love these stories!
I hope all my quotes are not out of place.
I feel like an ass for not keeping it simple, but I really hope to
connect/communicate as well.
So many things are getting down to a science for me, if only
we can find a common language to convey our understandings to one another. :)

Ezalor
11-22-2012, 03:28 PM
It's funny, it became harder to accept that I was NOT going to die, than the (false) knowledge that I was about to die.
And there is an awful lot to learn from that experience. If you learned even only just 1/10 of it, you can probably live better life than the great majority. ;)

Ilos
11-22-2012, 05:27 PM
When I was a child I fell from the steps down on another step straight with my forehead, I remember when i hit the ground I saw a white light but it was in a matter of a second than I woke up and saw myself covered with blood and started crying (nvm that lol). After when I grew I would hear stories how people that would have death experiences, coma, shocks, etcetera, would also talk about a white light that they saw. I'm not sure what it was but to me it seemed like when a light bulb explodes which it probably had to do something with the brain. I also was had kidney crystals (I'm not sure how thats interpreted in English) but anyway I was in a terrifying pain for like 1 hour and it was a torture till I went to the emergency that they gave me 4 shots to stop the pain. Wile I was in the car being transported I remember I came to a point when the pain got me in a way and I had nothing to do but ask god for help and a tear fell but still wasn't that easy till I got in the hospital. I have thees strange feelings sometimes when I lay on the bed to sleep, this strange vibration runs through my body and I actually can hear it like an electro shock, like this electro vibration from the heart spreads through all of my body and for a moment I feel like my spirit was about to leave me. I could say that from thees experiences I learned that as humans we are more complicated than we think we are, I could also say that in this world its something that always wants to pull you and its you who doesn't really wanna be pulled away you want to fight till your last heart beat no matter how you are or where you are.

Kiorionis
11-22-2012, 06:26 PM
The experience of death for me came with a discontinuity, albeit a short one.
About one year ago: I had just smoked a bit of herb outside one evening and went inside to meditate/zone out. around this time I was working out a lot of guilt and regret, which made me fairly anxious and depressed most of the time. I was never suicidal, I think my spiritual views kept me above the act. Basically the idea that if death comes to me while I'm trying to work out intense emotions, the energy I get to leave with is going to be chaotic, which starts me off poorly in the next life.

anyways, the actual experience started when my family's cat came into my room. It was pitch black and the only sound I could hear was the cat cleaning its paws. The sound she made brought me to a strange state of un-mind, I became a mouse and this sound was the executioner calling. I became terrified. Couldn't move even. I fell deeper into my trance and next thing I know I am trying desperately to get back in my body and control my heartbeat, as it has become irregular and out of control. It was within maybe seven or eight heartbeats that I failed in this and died.

Here is where the discontinuity or part I don't remember comes in.

Suddenly the family cat jumps onto my chest and breaks my trance. In this moment there was an incredible stillness and peace, a rebirth, and a one-ness as I like to describe it. It really was one of the most beautiful states of consciousness I've been in. Slowly the rational and creative parts of my brain took over and destroyed the majesty of the moment.
For the next two weeks I was having slight chest pains, then it all disappeared and life went on. There was still regret, but not much guilt and little anxiety when I started contemplating my past actions. My depression eventually subsided too.

The whole thing has brought much understanding to Philippians 2:


12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

-------------------------

my response to the question 'where is here?' would be this: 'Here' is the standing at the threshhold.

Nibiru
11-25-2012, 05:59 PM
Very interesting thread!! Thank you everyone for sharing your quotes and stories. Zoas23, did you ever get a chance to talk with the doctor who misdiagnosed you?? I'm curious of how that discussion went... :)

Orbital
11-25-2012, 10:25 PM
My only "Near Death Experience" was quite bizarre... because it was due to a bad/wrong diagnosis... and because it lasted for several months instead of being a "quick accident".

I had a horrible pain in my arm, an oncologist gave me a bad diagnosis: he said I had a terminal cancer... and that I only had a few months left.

I lived like that for 4 months. Thinking that there was nothing else to do, but to accept death.

Finally, my cousin, who is a doctor, made a lot of exams on me and found out that all I had was a vein in my arm that had become HUGE... so I had a surgery and the vein got removed. It was actually a very silly surgery. I had no cancer. I didn't even have something that was dangerous.

Anyway, I lived for 4 months thinking that I was about to die and that each day could be the last day.

To be honest, when I was told that I was NOT going to die soon... and that what I had was actually very simple and not dangerous at all... I felt very confused, shocked, not specially "happy"... and even a bit disturbed and upset... I even felt swindled.

It's not that I wanted to die, but I had spent 4 months getting ready for it.... and I had reached by then a perfect peace of mind. A perfect enlightment... I had a big smile on my face, I had absolutely no fear to die.
I wasn't specially anxious to die, I was mostly happy to have lived my life as it was... I was quite young by then, but I really was not feeling that my life had been "short"... I mostly felt that I had lived a "complete" life.

It's funny, it became harder to accept that I was NOT going to die, than the (false) knowledge that I was about to die.


LMAO hahahahahaha!!!!
Thank you for that.

Oh cruel world

III
11-26-2012, 05:06 AM
My only "Near Death Experience" was quite bizarre... because it was due to a bad/wrong diagnosis... and because it lasted for several months instead of being a "quick accident".

I had a horrible pain in my arm, an oncologist gave me a bad diagnosis: he said I had a terminal cancer... and that I only had a few months left.

I lived like that for 4 months. Thinking that there was nothing else to do, but to accept death.

Finally, my cousin, who is a doctor, made a lot of exams on me and found out that all I had was a vein in my arm that had become HUGE... so I had a surgery and the vein got removed. It was actually a very silly surgery. I had no cancer. I didn't even have something that was dangerous.

Anyway, I lived for 4 months thinking that I was about to die and that each day could be the last day.

To be honest, when I was told that I was NOT going to die soon... and that what I had was actually very simple and not dangerous at all... I felt very confused, shocked, not specially "happy"... and even a bit disturbed and upset... I even felt swindled.

It's not that I wanted to die, but I had spent 4 months getting ready for it.... and I had reached by then a perfect peace of mind. A perfect enlightment... I had a big smile on my face, I had absolutely no fear to die.
I wasn't specially anxious to die, I was mostly happy to have lived my life as it was... I was quite young by then, but I really was not feeling that my life had been "short"... I mostly felt that I had lived a "complete" life.

It's funny, it became harder to accept that I was NOT going to die, than the (false) knowledge that I was about to die.

Hi Zoas23,

To bring up Castaneda/Don Juan yet again, he said something to the effect of live with death as your advisor (over left shoulder if I remember correctly since last time I read the first book was the year it came out in paperback).

Living with rememberance of death provides a whole lot of "advice" for me.

cvv

III
11-26-2012, 07:20 AM
Hi III! Really great thread! I just haven't had time to respond.[/QUOTE

I've been in some near-death situations. We learned in Ramtha school to see our future
deaths and leave an omen and change/prevent them. I know many people who were
successful in this. I remember one Xmas driving to some friends to celebrate and I
came upon an unexpected sharp curve in the road... I was totally in the other lane and
a car was coming for me in the opposite direction. To this day I can't explain how i
missed that car - it just wasn't possible. It was like i drove through it. All I remember
was being in front of their headlights and then driving down the road without incident.

Other near-death experiences I think are valid are certain psychedelics and OBEs and even
dreams have been called "a little death". Meditation can be included too. So there are many
ways to taste the other side. With psychedelics, people often return running back to
the security of their lives, rather than being sent back by some divine (or otherwise) vision. :)

In my book, light beings (beings in "the light" that people "go to" when they die) are not to be
trusted. I mean, to each his own of course, but "the light" is the visible light spectrum within
the electromagnetic spectrum - the narrowest portion of the EM spectrum in which we perceive
colors with our eyes, and this rainbow of colors when seen as a whole (imagine moving
dimensionally from lines to a plane/area) is seen as white light, "the light".
Look how narrow relative to the rest of the spectrum:


And notice its location in the middle. In physical reality our bodies/desntities are in the
hertzian portion, or what is here called "radio waves". Then there is infrared which is moving
into more psychic areas of the brain and a realm where ghosts live or people who have died
and not gone to "the light" for whatever reason. Anyway, these three portions of the spectrum
relate to the lower three chakras and endocrine glands. Where we want to go is beyond those
three, beyond "the light", or as Castaneda said "to dart past the Eagle and be free." Castaneda
called the EM spectrum the Eagle's emanations. Don Juan describes the Eagle as a lightning flash
which illuminates a white beak and talons and separates the two black "wings" (relative to the
white light of the visible portion of the spectrum, the areas on either side, when seen as a whole,
appear black. When sorcerers saw a dead person's awareness being drawn to the Eagle's beak
and devoured, they were seeing awareness go to "the light" and be stripped of charge/polarity,
and thus the loss of individual identity, or awareness as an individual existence - because most
people identify themselves by charge, by attachment and repulsion - I like this, I don't like this...
this is the level of ferrous magnetism (see the thread in practical on electricity and magnetism).

I guess i should take a break. I have a lot to say on this subject.
But my point about the light and light beings - you know we have a "light body" - we have
a body for each of the 7 levels of the spectrum. Anyway, our personal light body is also the
ego, and it doesn't want to be exposed and it will do all kinds of things to prevent this. So we
don't even have to imagine someone else doing something to us - some evil or alien beings in
"the light"... it is our own "light body" that strips us when we go to the light. It will use whatever
visions in our neuronets it needs to, whether that is an image of loved ones or Jesus or whoever.
I'm sure this has been taken advantage of by other beings, the gods, etc... but the point is, if we
don't know ourselves, there's no chance of being free from others influences. A warrior assumes
responsibility for everything in his/her life. We can't change what we blame others for.

Anyway, there is an agenda to send people to the light and be stripped and reincarnated/recycled ignorance, etc.
It doesn't matter if it is a nefarious organisation or alien gods or your own ego... the ego is the only thing we
can really do something about. (I don't consider protests and revolutions or civil wars or voting as "doing something" -
that's exactly what the agenda wants us to do. That just perpetuates the issue via divide and conquer. Union/dissolution
is the only solution.)

Hi Solomon,

I remember one Xmas driving to some friends to celebrate and I came upon an unexpected sharp curve in the road... I was totally in the other lane and a car was coming for me in the opposite direction. To this day I can't explain how i missed that car - it just wasn't possible. It was like i drove through it. All I remember

Don't ya love it?

I had an experience very much almost exactly like that, such as these things go. It was an cold morning with a freezing rain coating everything in 1/4 inch of slick ice and 1/4 inch of light snow on top of the ice. I had a rare winter wedding to photograph and I was on the way to the brides house at 9 am. Meadowbrook was at the bottom of the hill of the street I lived on and all other streets on both sides. The creek was still above ground in some yards. Meadowbrook was terribly crowned. That day it meant that nobody could drive in their own lane without sliding into the curb. I was coming into a curve and a woman was entering from the other direction . She was driving way too fast for conditions, 20 mph perhaps. I was trying to climb the curb to get away frm her but was unable to get any traction. Her car was spinning out as she tried to pull back into her lane. She looked up at me hopelessly and used her hands to cover her eyes so she wouldn't have to watch the inevitable. The rear end of her car was swinging into me and her tail was going to intersect my car abour 4 feet into the car. Then the weirdest thing happened. Somehow everything got very visually distorted in weird way and the rear of her car suddenly became tremendously foreshortened with an exagerated "telephoto" effect and somehow became small enough to miss me entirely. I allowed myself to believe it and she wasn't watching. I kept trying to say "it must have passed through" but in examining what I did see it was a very rapid wave of distortion that allowed it to shrink/compress it's way past my car. Living in a responsive virtual holodeck allows that to happen as long as no observers insist it is otherwise. The pussy lived in this box too. However when other observers insist on otherwise one has to separate to a different world of low probabilty where nobody was looking and that is not always possible.




In my book, light beings (beings in "the light" that people "go to" when they die) are not to be trusted. I mean, to each his own of course, but "the light" is the visible light spectrum within the electromagnetic spectrum - the narrowest portion of the EM spectrum in which we perceive

I think we have a very different understanding in some things. First, I'm not going to any "beings of light" when I die or anything of the sort for any reasons other than my own. . I didn't just die yesterday. Seruiously though I don't personify the experience of consciousnesses at death, I remember and I work within the system. And these two characters I saw while I didn't know them by name I KNEW them to the depths of their beings and they were old friends. They were asking me to do something for a then current memeber of their order who was going to be dying unexpectedly soon. About 1% of my consciousness stayed with my body and wife and the rest went off with them.


Anyway, there is an agenda to send people to the light and be stripped and reincarnated/recycled ignorance, etc. It doesn't matter if it is a nefarious organisation or alien gods or your own ego... the ego is the only thing we can really do something about. (I don't consider protests and revolutions or civil wars or voting as "doing something" - that's exactly what the agenda wants us to do. That just perpetuates the issue via divide and conquer. Union/dissolution.


Anyway, there is an agenda to send people to the light and be stripped and reincarnated/recycled ignorance

Can you explain to me if you have yourself seen this or how you come by this to this conclusion or something. Who's agenda? The reason I say this is that to my best understandong and what I have experienced and so forth is that the system is set up for encouraging growth and evolution but, as I have expressed the opinion previously somewhere on this board is broken. The "tree" as I would describe it was all smashed up in one part. Some Buddhist writers spoke of the crystal grid being broken. Others have spoken of this damage in other ways.

The only time I ever saw what sounded like the description of the Eagle as described in the book, it had 1 stream of light blips out from each foot and wingtip, 4 in all, and 1 stream going in at the beak. What it meant wasn't clear to me but I wasn't in the flow going in or out, I was just cruisng by on the way to elsewhere.

When my grandfather was dying back in 1972 I think it was, a sudden severe stroke, he came by one Saturday night at 2:21 am and said his goodbyes. He visited one of my sisters too. I was lying on the couch with just a lavalight on. I was trying to do an "Edger Cayce" as I termed it at the time. I did and saw that there was nothing at all that needed to be done, that he was dying right then.

I found myself in a featureless gray and there he was in his "lawyer suit". He wore a suit every day for most of his life. When he retired he had hundreds of suits. He wore them for gardening, for walking for everything. I guess he could take it with him. We talked for a while. He gave me his advice for life, goodbyes for all that wouldn't allow themselves to see him off and reached out his hand fir a handshake. As I reached towards him the closer my hand got to his the brighter and whiter it got. At the instant our hands would have touched everything went pure bright milky white. When it cleared I was suspended over the golden flower. A presence said "You know, you don't have to do this right now". You are not the one dying." " And if I do this?" I asked "You get to remember" said the presence. "Two words of advice; Don't look back. Also don't bump into the edges. You knock pieces off yourself." And suddenly the archtype interpretation jumped in with a drumroll and a 3-2-1 go countdown. I went for it with everything I had no holding back. That was the first time I found myself in that root node conscious and then suddenly aware of the first split and the second split and then a whole lot more. I found myself in a major "cosmic consciousness" type state for more than a week before it faded below that. If I had stayed in that extreme state I would have had to have somebody to care for me, like Ramakrishna.

III
11-26-2012, 07:46 PM
And another discontinuity in a car, the youngest one I remember. I was about 2 years old at the time. I didn't remember it until a tantric massage I had after my partner reached a certain degree of intitated preistess. Then, while receiving the massage I went into a golden light and found a clearly feminine presence there who asked me if I wanted to know the truth of several matters as a young child. I said yes and the information flooded in. One of the items was a car wreck. I was sitting in the passenger seat looking up at the spilt windshield. We were on a street I recognized on the way home. My mother was distracted trying to light a cigarette as she was going too fast and tried to make the turn. Her arm shoots out in a futile attempt to restrain me. The car jumped the curb, heading for a group of 5-6 year old Catholic school girls and plowed into them just as my head hit the windshield in a flair of golden light. Whether I was knocked silly or dead with recurrance I don't know. However, I had one of those interludes with the "two presences". They were discussing me and if one so young and incomplete should be continued or erased to try again. I woke up an indeterminate time later, at least the next day by the TV shows on, lying on the couch with the most terrible headache I ever remember to that point, and they continued regularly for decades after that. The accident was NEVER mentioned or referred to. The car disappeared and was never seen again or spoken of again. I was ignored like I was talking nonsense when I asked about the car, like it didn't exist and never had. The talk of the town was the hit and run accident running down a group of Catholic School kindergarden girls in Cleveland Heights. I had flashes of those 4 frames at various times in my life but never context. Other things I remembered were abusive things about my mother did to me at an early age, things I had pieces of but not context or completeness. After knowing all these things I then felt the "armouring" Reich speaks of releasing and peelling off. As in many Tantric masages I have given, this one ended in a flood of tears followed by joy after the traumas were released and cleared. That is real sucess in this work. It happens piece by piece.


.

Ezalor
11-28-2012, 04:45 AM
Regarding the white light: I don't really remember the transition itself, but I clearly remember what is after that. I could describe it as a whirlpool of rainbow, of strong light of all possible colors. The whirlpool is the "place" where you decide (or it is being decided) what and where: To another plane? To a new incarnation? To somewhere else? While it feels huge and eternal, in fact, it is a single point, or nexus. It is one timeless point where everything meets.

Now, in the case of light*, we have additive color mixing, which means that if we add up all the colors together, we get white. So it would make sense to me, that the white light is either the same thing as the rainbow whirlpool, just experienced differently (probably, that you cannot yet see it so clear that the colors would separate), or that it is the entry point into the whirlpool. I could bring the analogy of that when you enter from a dark place to a light one, your eyes need some time to get used it before you can really see.

* Of course it isn't light in the physical sense, but something similar in nature.

solomon levi
11-28-2012, 05:42 AM
"Anyway, there is an agenda to send people to the light and be stripped and reincarnated/recycled ignorance

Can you explain to me if you have yourself seen this or how you come by this to this conclusion or something. Who's agenda? The reason I say this is that to my best understandong and what I have experienced and so forth is that the system is set up for encouraging growth and evolution but, as I have expressed the opinion previously somewhere on this board is broken. The "tree" as I would describe it was all smashed up in one part. Some Buddhist writers spoke of the crystal grid being broken. Others have spoken of this damage in other ways."

Hi III!
I've heard it described really well in Castaneda and at the Ramtha school and in Gnosticism.
In Gurdjieff it relates strongly to the first conscious shock between mi-fa.
I've seen the broken-ness myself too. I've seen "the light" just passing by as you described -
I never tried to hang out there; everything I'm interested in is beyond that.
I haven't seen any eating or stripping myself, not visually. But I can "see" it as a certainty, as certain
as magnets attract iron. I've seen for myself the illusory nature of the separate ego, and this is
tied into the whole structure - it is the Demiurgos which the Gnostics describe as Sophia's abortion,
miscarriage or some incomplete deformed thing She created without her Consort. For me, this is a very
clear description of the way things are and not a myth at all. It is psychologically in man and in the universe
as the ability to dream within dreams through relative projection and self-reflection - not a true creation at all,
but an aberration - not a union with our Consort, the Source, but with ourselves in masterbation (no judgement
implied).
The broken-ness is that we cannot find a way home or out of this self-perpetuated system from inside the system,
even though many religions and philosophies try to do just that with the ego/tonal still on the throne.
The agenda is very much as Robert Monroe described:
http://www.jamesdekorne.com/NewDawn/obegnostic.htm

And Castaneda describes it with the "flyers" and even going so far as to say our mind is not ours,
but a foreign installation and that "flyers" consume our glow/sheen of awareness.
http://www.metahistory.org/gnostique/gnosticastaneda/CCgnosis.php

One may even cite that our reptilian brain is not divided into hemispheres like our mammalian brain is...
one may cite this as possible alien/gods genetic intervention. Even Biblically, IHVH Elohim took a rib/side of Adam
to make Eve... not the whole, just one side.
Coincidentally, Genesis 2:22
http://biblos.com/genesis/2-22.htm
http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/6763.htm


All these religions, gods, archons, rulers, angels, demons...
this is why I argue that earth cannot be changed and doesn't need to be changed...
it serves a very specific purpose and we are here because we need that purpose, we
vibrate at that level. If it wasn't here, on earth, it would exist somewhere else and we
would be there because we still vibrate at that level.
Another gem I noticed watching "Lost"... if we help the moth/butterfly escape its
chrysalis early by cutting a hole, it would be too weak to survive.
Same is true for souls in bodies on earth.
If we could free everyone from governmental tyranny and injustice, nothing would change -
we'd just re-create it. We need it. A warrior needs a petty tyrant:

"In the strategic inventories of warriors, self-importance figures as the activity that consumes the greatest amount of energy, hence, their effort to eradicate it.
One of the first concerns of warriors is to free that energy in order to face the unknown with it. The action of rechanneling that energy is impeccability.
The most effective strategy for rechanneling that energy consists of six elements that interplay with one another. Five of them are called the attributes of warriorship: control, discipline, forbearance, timing, and will . They pertain to the world of the warrior who is fighting to lose self-importance. The sixth element, which is perhaps the most important of all, pertains to the outside world and is called the petty tyrant.
A petty tyrant is a tormentor. Someone who either holds the power of life and death over warriors or simply annoys them to distraction.
Petty tyrants teach us detachment. The ingredients of the new seers' strategy shows how efficient and clever is the device of using a petty tyrant. The strategy not only gets rid of self-importance; it also prepares warriors for the final realization that impeccability is the only thing that counts in the path of knowledge.
Usually, only four attributes are played. The fifth, will , is always saved for an ultimate confrontation, when warriors are facing the firing squad, so to speak.
Will belongs to another sphere, the unknown. The other four belong to the known, exactly where the petty tyrants are lodged. In fact, what turns human beings into petty tyrants is precisely the obsessive manipulation of the known.
Four attributes are all that is needed to deal with the worst of petty tyrants, provided, of course, that a petty tyrant has been found. The petty tyrant is the outside element, the one we cannot control and the element that is perhaps the most important of them all. The warrior who stumbles on a petty tyrant is a lucky one. You're fortunate if you come upon one in your path, because if you don't you have to go out and look for one.If seers can hold their own in facing petty tyrants, they can certainly face the unknown with impunity, and then they can even stand the presence of the unknowable.
Nothing can temper the spirit of a warrior as much as the challenge of dealing with impossible people in positions of power. Only under those conditions can warriors acquire the sobriety and serenity to stand the pressure of the unknowable.
The perfect ingredient for the making of a superb seer is a petty tyrant with unlimited prerogatives. Seers have to go to extremes to find a worthy one. Most of the time they have to be satisfied with very small fry. Then warriors develop a strategy using the four attributes of warriorship: control, discipline, forbearance, and timing."
- Castaneda, Fire from Within

Ezalor
11-28-2012, 06:33 AM
earth cannot be changed and doesn't need to be changed...
it serves a very specific purpose and we are here because we need that purpose, we
vibrate at that level. If it wasn't here, on earth, it would exist somewhere else
The second part is true. But the first isn't, exactly because of the second.

By changing this world, you won't break anything, those who need what is here before the change will find it elsewhere, so there is no reason NOT to change something. But in fact, the Earth doesn't matter at all. It's just one of many totally unimportant mudballs floating around in space. What is important, is the PROCESS. Because when you can induce a process that is so great that it can create global changes on a planet, then you affect the whole Universe considerably - not because you affect this unimportant rock, but because you affect the PROCESS itself that goes on in the Universe.

When we are fighting for creating balance on this planet, we do not fight for this planet or its residents. We are actually fighting for the general balance of the Universe. You harmonize the whole by harmonizing its parts. And there is a big problem in the Universe, that its balance is far off. Not the balance of this planet, but the balance of the whole Universe. Balancing this planet won't really make any noticeable change. But balance one more planet, then one more... balance many, and the many small things add up.

Making this planet a better place is like taking a handful of soil away from a mountain. It doesn't change anything. But keep taking away handfuls, and after a while the mountain will be gone.

But again, as you balance the Universe by balancing worlds one by one, you balance the planet by balancing the people on it, one by one. Starting with yourself. ;)

solomon levi
11-28-2012, 07:25 AM
Yes. It's all true. So many perspectives.
It's hard to integrate them into one teaching without leaving something out.
We can change the earth. But that change will be some frequency that already exists
somewhere/everywhere - we can access it now, not just after the change.
From that view, changing the earth and/or the frequency and situation on the planet is simply
a project if one is looking for a project... a project which imagines that perfection doesn't already exists.
It's hard to reconcile nonduality and alchemy without many words of definition.
It's basically the paradox of aqua permanens/mercury which does and doesn't reflect the Buddhist
idea of permanence.
It is also two paths, that of Nature/Saturn/time and that of the timeless.
We can change the world, and the world changes all by itself too, and nothing ever changes.
All these are true for me. One doesn't deny the other.
We can change the world. I've just never heard a good reason why to change it.
Of course, for people with beliefs, there are millions of reasons to change it.
Better? What can be better than this present moment?
We seem insane to eachother - you to me for imagining some non-existent conceptualisation/"other" is better than what is/the real;
and me to you for imagining that our present world could not be improved with some kindness and love.
It's a catch-22. Do we have to choose? My real present world is not without love and kindness;
nor is it without pain and suffering. I simply don't believe that less suffering is better - it's the same.
The unconditioned perspective does not have degrees like the conditioned perspective imagines it has.

See what I mean? It's complicated to talk about. Action resolves this complication quite readily.
Action is present. "Better" is not an action; it's an idea/thought/concept/psychological/imagined/invention, etc.
We can't ACT better. It only appears this way when we use our memories to give context in linear time.
But always comparing things to some no longer actually existing past is why the world is not better.
You can't get there from here.
Imagined separate ego/mind is the "problem" - it cannot solve itself, within itself.
But it's not a problem either. People seem happy to pretend to be their minds. It's one option in this universe -
nothing wrong with it. But it is why the world hasn't changed and cannot change - because "the world" is
not "out there". The world is the mind for people who identify with their minds.
Letting go/not identifying with the mind/thought/past is the only solution.
Everything else perpetuates the "problem"/separation/ego mind.

solomon levi
11-28-2012, 07:43 AM
See what I mean? It's complicated to talk about. Action resolves this complication quite readily.
Action is present. "Better" is not an action; it's an idea/thought/concept/psychological/imagined/invention, etc.
We can't ACT better. It only appears this way when we use our memories to give context in linear time.
But always comparing things to some no longer actually existing past is why the world is not better.
You can't get there from here.
Imagined separate ego/mind is the "problem" - it cannot solve itself, within itself.


I just went to visit my facebook and got a "confirmation from the universe" :)

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s480x480/28063_10151397029935499_991817519_n.jpg


Oh, had another confirmation. Isn't "better" the same idea as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoTmNU_5A0

III
11-28-2012, 08:07 AM
So, death and rebirth in the same life, discontinuities galore, changes of perspective allowing "impossible" scrape bys and other items of similar ilk how does that happen as part of the ordinary course of busienss, over and over in a literal physical world of the type everytbody thinks this is? I find it difficult to consceive of a system in which everything is miracle and special exception processing. Instead, these NDE, complete death and recurrance or just leave and re-enter different times in life or discontinuities and suddenly without segue you and maybe a vehicle are suddenly somewhere else, with or without between life interludes with memory suggest a non physical world. Then all that is routine operations in a virtual holodeck, no problem at all. Or is there something special about the hundreds of people I've talked about this with, almost everybody remembers something of the sort with a lot have many instances that come crawling out. They are more common than not. Or of course I might only be meeting people who have hundreds of recurrent miracles in their life? We must all be saints I guess. Or maybe that is just the normal way this world operates.

WHERE IS HERE?

solomon levi
11-28-2012, 08:37 AM
A holodeck is as good a description as any.
We think there is a world of things out there but thingness is a property/projection of the mind.
It is actually a sea of energy.
"Here" is an alignment of energies... a selection process: emphasize this, de-emphasize that = "here".
Dying simply removes some of the filtering, not all of it.
This is a dream within a dream within a dream... death removes some levels of dreaming but not all.
Only Infinity/unconditioned is filterless "here".

Ezalor
11-30-2012, 03:18 AM
I simply don't believe that less suffering is better
I don't think that either. What I say, is that balance is better than imbalance. And balance means neither more, nor less than necessary. Suffering is needed. If there is too less of it, it is just as "bad" as too much of it. This why those who want more "good" in the world than "bad" are just as wrong as those who want the opposite. Either way is hurting the balance.

What I say is that currently on this planet, the darkness, the suffering is way more than their counterparts, that is, there is no balance. Suffering should be decreased only as much until it is once again in balance with the opposing force, and no any further.

I think I also I understand your point too. Reality is neither good or bad, it just IS. But there needs to be somewhere a threshold, because if we would detach from everything completely, then existence wouldn't make any sense anymore. Of course, the threshold can be different for every being.

III
11-30-2012, 09:02 PM
A holodeck is as good a description as any.
We think there is a world of things out there but thingness is a property/projection of the mind.
It is actually a sea of energy.
"Here" is an alignment of energies... a selection process: emphasize this, de-emphasize that = "here".
Dying simply removes some of the filtering, not all of it.
This is a dream within a dream within a dream... death removes some levels of dreaming but not all.
Only Infinity/unconditioned is filterless "here".

Hi Solomon,

A holodeck is as good a description as any.

It is actually a sea of energy.

Yes, and of course that is part of the problem of understanding. All we can do is describe something approximately. Using an anology from medical research, back in the 40s when the search for b12 was on, some researchers hypothecized that there had to be "an intrinsic factor" that allows b12 to be absorbed in digestion. After 20 years it became THE Intrinsic Factor as compared to the thousands of other intrinsic factors we have in our bodies. How things get named is kind of flakey. Two thousand years ago an adult illiterate peasant most anywhere in the world would have a language vocabulary of about 2000 words. So how does one explain the esoteric in a language so limited? There was Sanscrit for those literate in spme areas that had an extensive vocabulary for describing the esoteric. However, the basis of understanding was totally different.

So here we are in a "sea of energy" in which we have all these various levels of dreams. We can either know we are in dreams or not know, caring about which ever is a whole different matter. We have consciousness. Within quite a range we can choose to experience "life" in a "body" or we can see things in a non-material way or we can see things and have no conscious reaction or interpretation or not.

What is the point of being in a body? Why is that valued? What is the purpose of consciousness? What is the purpose of intelligence? Sure, it's turtles turtles turtles all the way down. That is the nature of a fractal. Each turtle is slightly different and unique.

One might look at this life system as a Monte Carlo simulation. The more advanced the medical system the more of the variations of intellegence that can be explored. The intelligence and consciousness of my unique variation could not have happened prior to antibiotics being available. So antibiotics makes possible millions and billions of life intelligence consciousness variations that could not have survived in previous millions of years. Is there a purpose in that? Or is it all just the quantum decay and uncertainty that is meaningless.

So now we can say the the "kingdom" might be looked at as a virtual holodeck with Christ Consciousness as it's environment setting. Some people expect to be "saved" from what and by what and for what reason I really don't understand. Saved from their own fears and illusions? If there are enough fearfull "external"
things we don't have to focus on knowing ourselves.

The filters of the languge itself makes many ideas impossible to state or at least convery a meaning, especially across 2000 years of cultural change, of "mood of the times" or whatever. Since people are participating on this entire forum, I kind of would assume that those doing so tend to think that there is meaning in all this somewhere, or that at least it is entertainment in moments of the Eternal consciousness.

Just working on the virtual holodeck or other such schema, a level of "operating system" in which we find ourselves can change understanding, of why and how we can actually change and evolve ourselves. If one thinks about it, the rules are then a very different thing than if it is a real physical planet running on mysterious hot and cold running miracles.


xx

solomon levi
12-01-2012, 01:48 AM
I don't think that either. What I say, is that balance is better than imbalance. And balance means neither more, nor less than necessary. Suffering is needed. If there is too less of it, it is just as "bad" as too much of it. This why those who want more "good" in the world than "bad" are just as wrong as those who want the opposite. Either way is hurting the balance.

What I say is that currently on this planet, the darkness, the suffering is way more than their counterparts, that is, there is no balance. Suffering should be decreased only as much until it is once again in balance with the opposing force, and no any further.

I think I also I understand your point too. Reality is neither good or bad, it just IS. But there needs to be somewhere a threshold, because if we would detach from everything completely, then existence wouldn't make any sense anymore. Of course, the threshold can be different for every being.

Hi Ezalor!
I don't really see this imbalance. I understand it - I used to see it.
I can emphasize it. But I know that's me and not the world.

Yes, that's correct - existence doesn't make any sense anymore.
I prefer to see "what is" rather than my preferences, unless I'm engaging
in magic - which we all are doing all the time, whether we realise it or not.
I'm no saint, nor do I have rules of what I or others can or can't/should or
shouldn't do. The only difference is that I don't believe my preferences - I
watch them, aware of what I am intending, almost all the time now. I play
games if games are called for - whatever... I'm just not invested/in-volved.
I act as normal as possible. I wear the hat I'm supposed to wear to do my job
or be a moderator, or a decent human being - but I'm so much more than what
we normally think of as human. Everyone is. :)

Since every conditioned thing is equal compared to the unconditioned, it really doesn't
matter what I'm doing or where i am. My preferences are a facade/persona. I mean I
uncreated the old persona that people/society/family taught me to be and chose my own.

So making sense or reason is what the mind/past does to preserve order and security. My
security boundary is perhaps larger than most - my shields are thin so I can participate in
other dimensions. Real, simple, vulnerable, fluid... these are my new persona. The old
personality took too much energy to maintain and blinded me to the larger picture.
We think/assume life has a purpose, just because we ask the question. The only thing
close to a purpose that I can see is growing, evolution - things that stay the same go extinct.
Things that can adapt pass on their seed.

solomon levi
12-01-2012, 02:01 AM
Hi III!
Yes, I feel pretty aligned with your description.
I studied a little sanskrit years ago and was
amazed at the spiritual things that they had words for -
words that take us sentences to describe and they
packed it up in a word very nicely.

solomon levi
12-01-2012, 02:06 AM
So death is the same as this place, as far as I am concerned.
Here is everywhere. Every conditioned thing is equal, essentially.
But in practice, yes, I usually just try to be as objective as possible
and see the largest picture i can - or multiple pictures at once.
Our death is occurring right now, on another plane/dimension, in
another time/speed.
In other words, YOU are the "place". There are no places - just you -
consciousness... consciousness appearing in veils of subtlety and density.
Death, too, is consciousness.

Ezalor
12-01-2012, 02:17 AM
So in the end, there is no contradiction in the perceptions of the two of us, just that we are interested in different aspects of reality, which is all fine. Ultimately, freedom, TRUE freedom means that there are no any rules you must adhere (but there are rules that you are just unable to break). Even if you would chose a path that I considered wrong, it is still completely in your freedom and right to do so. But if course, by making a choice, we are also choosing the consequences of that choice.

As I used to say: freedom means to chose our own limitations.

My path is different in that I was created with a specific, rather than a generic purpose. And even though it is in my freedom as well to chose anything, I chose to fulfill that purpose. First, it was only a purpose, without the involvement of free will. And then, I lost it all. And now, out of free will I chose the same. That is how a cold purpose becomes a honest commitment. It has nothing to do with this planet or its residents, actually not even with the Great War itself directly. I really couldn't care less if this world is being destroyed. But if I look at the big picture, then for those who I am protect is better if I take a side here. For some degree.

solomon levi
12-02-2012, 03:58 PM
So in the end, there is no contradiction in the perceptions of the two of us, just that we are interested in different aspects of reality, which is all fine. Ultimately, freedom, TRUE freedom means that there are no any rules you must adhere (but there are rules that you are just unable to break). Even if you would chose a path that I considered wrong, it is still completely in your freedom and right to do so. But if course, by making a choice, we are also choosing the consequences of that choice.

As I used to say: freedom means to chose our own limitations.

My path is different in that I was created with a specific, rather than a generic purpose. And even though it is in my freedom as well to chose anything, I chose to fulfill that purpose. First, it was only a purpose, without the involvement of free will. And then, I lost it all. And now, out of free will I chose the same. That is how a cold purpose becomes a honest commitment. It has nothing to do with this planet or its residents, actually not even with the Great War itself directly. I really couldn't care less if this world is being destroyed. But if I look at the big picture, then for those who I am protect is better if I take a side here. For some degree.

I'm not so sure our perceptions agree.
You seem to believe in truth and absolutes and ultimates as if they are fixed things.
At least you write that way, if you don't mean to.
Sometimes I choose words inaccurately because I'm not patient or feeling totally absorbed
in the moment... maybe that's what you're doing. But this statement in another thread says
a lot to me:
"But I shall warn you first: although the clarity and certainty of given elements caries, generally what I will describe is based upon my memories, and in many case was confirmed by outside sources. So I hold no doubt on the majority of these informations. They however, may indeed contradict the personal beliefs and views of some of you. In such case, I won't say you are wrong... but I won't either say that my words are but a personal opinion, as I consider the core of it proved facts. My aim to stay honest doesn't allow me to soften my words only to avoid friction with others."

That you say "I won't say that you are wrong" means that you thought it, and that reveals your intent
no matter what you don't say. :) Why does it cross our minds at all - the idea of wrong and right?
It is not enough to not say it, if I were to have an opinion. :)

My universe has no ultimate point of reference - infinity is the reference.
Infinity cannot have absolutes or ultimates or The Truth.
Everything I can know is simply one description among infinite descriptions.
There are some descriptions i prefer, as i said, but i don't believe in my preferences.
I doubt everything - not that I think anything untrue... but that I don't think anything untrue is
precisely why I doubt everything - because it is relative. (Doubt not meaning for me "disbelieve",
but simply meaning the root - double: I hold multiple perspectives which give me sobriety from
believing any one of them are the truth.)
I do agree with the difference between opinion and what you call "proved facts".
But i know there is no point in me telling anyone else that. Proved to me does not equal objectively proved.
Fact to me does not equal objective fact. Every opinion and belief is "proved" to the one who holds it.
When i first had visions of the larger picture, I thought it was more true.
I don't feel that way anymore. The conditioned is the unconditioned and the
unconditioned is the conditioned. It used to matter - being conditioned was
limited and false and being unconditioned was free and true. I don't believe or
feel that anymore.

I've been wanting to write a post on the false messiah.
I'll do that soon.
It isn't a person - it's an initiation or stage of progression.
When we first wake up, it is polar to being asleep and it is not yet mature.
This produces much self-righteousness and preaching and judgement/comparison
which fall away with maturity.
For example, nonduality seems better than duality, more true - but that itself is in opposition
to the definition of nonduality! People who say or feel "stop being dual" are not "true nondualist" (an oxymoron).
Or we feel we have achieved something and start teaching while we are
still and always will be students in an infinity where there is always more to learn and see -
no Truth, no ultimate, no absolute... no conclusion, no final word on the subject, etc...
Of course we only know this in hindsight.

III
12-03-2012, 02:55 AM
I'm not so sure our perceptions agree.
You seem to believe in truth and absolutes and ultimates as if they are fixed things.
At least you write that way, if you don't mean to.
Sometimes I choose words inaccurately because I'm not patient or feeling totally absorbed
in the moment... maybe that's what you're doing. But this statement in another thread says
a lot to me:
"But I shall warn you first: although the clarity and certainty of given elements caries, generally what I will describe is based upon my memories, and in many case was confirmed by outside sources. So I hold no doubt on the majority of these informations. They however, may indeed contradict the personal beliefs and views of some of you. In such case, I won't say you are wrong... but I won't either say that my words are but a personal opinion, as I consider the core of it proved facts. My aim to stay honest doesn't allow me to soften my words only to avoid friction with others."

That you say "I won't say that you are wrong" means that you thought it, and that reveals your intent
no matter what you don't say. :) Why does it cross our minds at all - the idea of wrong and right?
It is not enough to not say it, if I were to have an opinion. :)

My universe has no ultimate point of reference - infinity is the reference.
Infinity cannot have absolutes or ultimates or The Truth.
Everything I can know is simply one description among infinite descriptions.
There are some descriptions i prefer, as i said, but i don't believe in my preferences.
I doubt everything - not that I think anything untrue... but that I don't think anything untrue is
precisely why I doubt everything - because it is relative. (Doubt not meaning for me "disbelieve",
but simply meaning the root - double: I hold multiple perspectives which give me sobriety from
believing any one of them are the truth.)
I do agree with the difference between opinion and what you call "proved facts".
But i know there is no point in me telling anyone else that. Proved to me does not equal objectively proved.
Fact to me does not equal objective fact. Every opinion and belief is "proved" to the one who holds it.
When i first had visions of the larger picture, I thought it was more true.
I don't feel that way anymore. The conditioned is the unconditioned and the
unconditioned is the conditioned. It used to matter - being conditioned was
limited and false and being unconditioned was free and true. I don't believe or
feel that anymore.

I've been wanting to write a post on the false messiah.
I'll do that soon.
It isn't a person - it's an initiation or stage of progression.
When we first wake up, it is polar to being asleep and it is not yet mature.
This produces much self-righteousness and preaching and judgement/comparison
which fall away with maturity.
For example, nonduality seems better than duality, more true - but that itself is in opposition
to the definition of nonduality! People who say or feel "stop being dual" are not "true nondualist" (an oxymoron).
Or we feel we have achieved something and start teaching while we are
still and always will be students in an infinity where there is always more to learn and see -
no Truth, no ultimate, no absolute... no conclusion, no final word on the subject, etc...
Of course we only know this in hindsight.

Hi Solomon,

Within this system that we find ourselves, I would say that I find "rules' but they are "rules" of operation that appears to have come out as the promordial consciousness evolved. These "rules" I see are very primative, more like assembly language. It's like each chunk of macrodimensional consciousness sits in its eternal chamber performing it's function (EJ Gold). I would compare that function to be something like a cell in an Excel spreadsheet". Beyond the rules of operation, I don't see any overall meaning. The only meanings I see are those agreed on between consicousnesses. Now those can be based on an accurate understanding of the COS or not. To the extent that the being accurately understands the operating principles that being will be able to work "magic" or "Alchemy" or whatever. Wrong applications don't work. "Wrong" means "nonfunctional" not "bad" or "immoral" or whatever. High voltage LOVE burns off anything not consistant with itself. The workaround of that is to become consistant with LOVE by evolution. What does it all mean? I don't know. There are all sorts of beings at various levels of undestanding and fantasies that would be glad to supply their meaning.

One of the things that can be learned is how to learn. Knowing how the COS works settles nothing. One can derive a certain meaning from how it operates. It operates to show us our very self . It enforces "karma" whatever and however that works and which changes in Alchemy to the previous discussed "reflection", showing the being it's self right now. How I describe this is only one of many ways to do so. You cross a systems analyst with a mystic and you get might get my language set.

As larger macro dimensional beings appear to exist, a lot of stories get told about them. While they might "understand" their environment better than we do there appears to be no more knowledge of "meaning". We tell many stories and fantasies of them. Who is to say what is real? The REAL predictions will appear to occur, the fantasies won't. They exist to fill the needs of the system as we do. They are part of it as we are. Anything we can possibly think or do fullfills the needs of the system. The system doesn't care. We are don't matter to the system. At a level slightly above our own, our entire existance doesn't amount to even a single pixel.

Something that occurs at each "level" of a specific magnitude. The person enters the chamber and has the thought "AT LAST I HAVE MADE IT!" or thereabouts. That is merely an illusion. Perhaps that corresponds to "false messiah"?

solomon levi
12-03-2012, 10:03 PM
Hi III.
Yeah, I think of wrong in the sense of Gurdjieff's aim.
What I don't like about wrong is when it is one person saying
another is wrong. What I see is that intent never misses its aim,
so there is never wrong/sin/hamartia/"to miss the target".
What we interpret as wrong is simply not knowing our intent,
for intent always manifests perfectly - a signature cannot produce
the wrong frequency/vibration.
Even functional is relative, though I know what you mean I think -
not doing what doesn't work. I went through that stage/realisation.
But now I see justice always - that is "less conditioned"/a bigger picture for me.

False messiah is the stone becoming too dry too early - fixing our ideas before
they are matured to redness; and forgetting that any new plateau is not the truth
because man always exists between earth/past and heaven/future; man is defined
by the above and below. 5 knows it came from 3 and will be 8 (fibonacci). False
messiah forgets that 13 will follow 8 and 21 will follow 13, i.e. that truth is always relative;
what works is always relative.
False messiah is imagining a separation between the awakened and the sleeping - seeing
a difference at all. The Buddah realised everyone was already enlightened. To imagine
wrong is to imagine we are not God/perfect always. It is not possible to leave perfection;
it is only possible to imagine we left it, or it left us.
That's what I see.

III
12-04-2012, 05:43 AM
Hi III.
Yeah, I think of wrong in the sense of Gurdjieff's aim.
What I don't like about wrong is when it is one person saying
another is wrong. What I see is that intent never misses its aim,
so there is never wrong/sin/hamartia/"to miss the target".
What we interpret as wrong is simply not knowing our intent,
for intent always manifests perfectly - a signature cannot produce
the wrong frequency/vibration.
Even functional is relative, though I know what you mean I think -
not doing what doesn't work. I went through that stage/realisation.
But now I see justice always - that is "less conditioned"/a bigger picture for me.

False messiah is the stone becoming too dry too early - fixing our ideas before
they are matured to redness; and forgetting that any new plateau is not the truth
because man always exists between earth/past and heaven/future; man is defined
by the above and below. 5 knows it came from 3 and will be 8 (fibonacci). False
messiah forgets that 13 will follow 8 and 21 will follow 13, i.e. that truth is always relative;
what works is always relative.
False messiah is imagining a separation between the awakened and the sleeping - seeing
a difference at all. The Buddah realised everyone was already enlightened. To imagine
wrong is to imagine we are not God/perfect always. It is not possible to leave perfection;
it is only possible to imagine we left it, or it left us.
That's what I see.

Hi Solomon,

what works is always relative.

Of course. In Alchemy, though we do different things, we both build patterns of energies via different means. You are working with glassware and chemicals and metals, I am working with wetware and biochemicals and biometals. Yet we each do focused energy patterns, manupulations, meditations etc. If it's like any other activity, the brain develops patterns of neurons that may act as a resonance circuit, a "similarity" generator of sorts, that acts on the energies and gives the results we are seeking. If we can intuit or know or whatever the correct sequence done correctly in an always similar yet ever changing pattern we receive the alchemical results we are seeking in a general sense. Sucess at alchemy takes a lot of effort and repetition.

False messiah is imagining a separation between the awakened and the sleeping - seeing a difference at all.

I see differnces in every way of every body and being. There is not a judgementalness. There is an observation. A learning of how things go together. Every person is a unique being. I see that uniqueness, but don't necessarily see what that means or anything like it. To not see the differences is like not seeing the trees and the mountains, the plumage of the birds, the art of being. As we are self designing indivualized intellegent consciousnesses it is art as the aesthetics of creating our beings are an important consideration. Some appear to get overly enamored of "efficiency" and become very sparse, ascetic even, in the lives that they will allow themselves.

The Buddah realised everyone was already enlightened. To imagine wrong is to imagine we are not God/perfect always.

Of course all beings are already enlightened. Thou art God. I certainly can't tell if they are acting like an asshole because they are asleep or because that is the right "move" in whatever they are consciously playing for their alchemy. We are all Bozos on this bus. We might be wearing any number of personas for various purposes. Alchemy as a game played for energy considerations and creating patterns of energy that cause the Alchemy to occur. My lab is working with the energies going through myself and others; the entire range of energies. I prefer cooperative games to competitive ones. But, I can't control how people actually behave once it starts. Like Jumanji one needs to keep playing for the whole cycle otherwise all the energies are left unresolved.

It is not possible to leave perfection; it is only possible to imagine we left it, or it left us. That's what I see.

What's perfection? As one man I know wanted T-shirts made that said "My higher self is an asshole too" And if he had been thinking about it might have said "a perfect asshole". We are all exactly what we are. That being can be changed and then we will always have been that and always will be until it is again changed. Change is impossible until it happens, and then it never happened because it always was. None the less we can use this life for the purpose of evolution, whatever that means. For the refinement and growth of our being perhaps.

Have fun. BE IN LOVE

solomon levi
12-04-2012, 08:50 AM
Hi III.

Do you really think glass and metal are my tools?
I thought it was pretty clear that consciousness is my matter and dimensions my vases.


Awakened and sleeping are not the same as trees and mountain.
Awake and asleep are psychological projections/images - imagined, not real entities of substance.
So they are judgements - they don't exist without the words/labels.
But trees do still exist when we remove the label - there is something still there.
This is how i define judgement; this is how i see what judgement is.


What's perfection? I thought I was clear about that.
"What is", "THIS", "that which is", is perfection. Everything is perfection.
Everything exists from the One in perfect equilibrium.
The perfection I speak of is not fixed or rigid. It is constant flux -
always changing, always perfect.

zoas23
12-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Very interesting thread!! Thank you everyone for sharing your quotes and stories. Zoas23, did you ever get a chance to talk with the doctor who misdiagnosed you?? I'm curious of how that discussion went... :)

Nibiru! First of all, and this is incredibly off topic, pardon me for my delay with your page. I've been having a lot of different situations that kept me away from it (the most important one was that my computer got broken... and then other situations, just give me some time!).

And... no, I didn't talk to that doctor again. Because he is one of the most famous doctors in my country and, besides from being a doctor, he's also the boss/head of the best hospital in my country. My parents are doctors too and they specially asked me not to get in touch with him again, because I needed that hospital for the surgery (I had to go through a small surgery, though not a cancer surgery, of course)... and that it was better to have a good relationship with the hospital.





Hi Zoas23,

To bring up Castaneda/Don Juan yet again, he said something to the effect of live with death as your advisor (over left shoulder if I remember correctly since last time I read the first book was the year it came out in paperback).

Living with rememberance of death provides a whole lot of "advice" for me.

cvv

I really really dislike Castaneda. I think this is probably because we both interact with the same culture, the Latin American culture... and our views about it are very different.
Having said such thing, I do know that idea you are talking about and it's certainly more universal than something that only belongs to the "universe of Castaneda".

And, yes, I do like that idea... but let me explain something:

The idea of Death is, of course, very typical, even the key point, in almost every esoteric tradition. A lot of examples come to my mind: from the initiations that involve a symbolical "death" of the person who is going to be initiated... to very classical ideas of alchemy... or even very contemporary ideas (I like a lot Austin Spare... and he talks a lot about the so called "death posture").

I'd say that the "symbolical death" and the idea that you are actually going to die very soon in the most literal sense of the word are two very similar and yet two very different ideas.
Specially if the situation of getting ready to die involves several months. I faced three times the experience of having someone aiming at my head with a gun ----a crazy cop, a crazy thief... and a crazy girlfriend--- and other similar situations that lasted less than 5 minutes in which I could have died.
These experiences that only last 5 minutes or less are also very different, because they don't really give our minds the time to really go through the experience of death... or the alchemical process that it involves. They are shocking experiences for sure, but a situation that lasts several months develops a very different process.

The main difference between a "symbolical death" (and I am includying Castaneda's idea here) and being waiting to die in the most literal sense of the word is probably that the "symbolical deaths" involve changing the ego and evolving in this life to create new ways of action, new ways of thinking, new ways of perceiving and so on... these experiences may lead to an Enlightenment (I will cal it Gnosis #1).

The experience of beeing waiting for a real death that will happen very soon also leads to an Enlightenment (I will call it Gnosis #2).... but to one that has a very different nature, because you are no longer developing new ways to act HERE.

I once saw a theater play in which the performers had to talk about what is death. A girl in the play said something that sounded very silly and yet it was quite deep; she said: "I swin 5 days a week and that's my favorite activity. When I think about death I imagine the experience of not going to the swimming pool again... and that the world goes on, but I won't be going to the swimming pool and there will be other people swimming, but I won't be there".

So.... I don't think the Gnosis #1 and #2 are incredibly different, except that the Gnosis #2 is not really the best state of mind to spend the whole life.

III
12-04-2012, 08:12 PM
Nibiru! First of all, and this is incredibly off topic, pardon me for my delay with your page. I've been having a lot of different situations that kept me away from it (the most important one was that my computer got broken... and then other situations, just give me some time!).

And... no, I didn't talk to that doctor again. Because he is one of the most famous doctors in my country and, besides from being a doctor, he's also the boss/head of the best hospital in my country. My parents are doctors too and they specially asked me not to get in touch with him again, because I needed that hospital for the surgery (I had to go through a small surgery, though not a cancer surgery, of course)... and that it was better to have a good relationship with the hospital.

I really really dislike Castaneda. I think this is probably because we both interact with the same culture, the Latin American culture... and our views about it are very different.
Having said such thing, I do know that idea you are talking about and it's certainly more universal than something that only belongs to the "universe of Castaneda".

And, yes, I do like that idea... but let me explain something:

The idea of Death is, of course, very typical, even the key point, in almost every esoteric tradition. A lot of examples come to my mind: from the initiations that involve a symbolical "death" of the person who is going to be initiated... to very classical ideas of alchemy... or even very contemporary ideas (I like a lot Austin Spare... and he talks a lot about the so called "death posture").

I'd say that the "symbolical death" and the idea that you are actually going to die very soon in the most literal sense of the word are two very similar and yet two very different ideas.
Specially if the situation of getting ready to die involves several months. I faced three times the experience of having someone aiming at my head with a gun ----a crazy cop, a crazy thief... and a crazy girlfriend--- and other similar situations that lasted less than 5 minutes in which I could have died.
These experiences that only last 5 minutes or less are also very different, because they don't really give our minds the time to really go through the experience of death... or the alchemical process that it involves. They are shocking experiences for sure, but a situation that lasts several months develops a very different process.

The main difference between a "symbolical death" (and I am includying Castaneda's idea here) and being waiting to die in the most literal sense of the word is probably that the "symbolical deaths" involve changing the ego and evolving in this life to create new ways of action, new ways of thinking, new ways of perceiving and so on... these experiences may lead to an Enlightenment (I will cal it Gnosis #1).

The experience of beeing waiting for a real death that will happen very soon also leads to an Enlightenment (I will call it Gnosis #2).... but to one that has a very different nature, because you are no longer developing new ways to act HERE.

I once saw a theater play in which the performers had to talk about what is death. A girl in the play said something that sounded very silly and yet it was quite deep; she said: "I swin 5 days a week and that's my favorite activity. When I think about death I imagine the experience of not going to the swimming pool again... and that the world goes on, but I won't be going to the swimming pool and there will be other people swimming, but I won't be there".

So.... I don't think the Gnosis #1 and #2 are incredibly different, except that the Gnosis #2 is not really the best state of mind to spend the whole life.

Hi Zos23,

Right you are, there are all sorts of death situations. I spent more than a decade with congestive heart failure and a multitude of other problems. One night I had 6 or 7 NDE experiences. In 1992 I died on the stairs, went away for a sizable hunk of eternal experience and came back for reasons completely unrelated to this life and found myself coming back into this life in which I least wanted to be, at that same moment on the stairs just before I fell over. Up until then I had always ended up back here immediately and the same after wards. On that one occasion I had a long delay, continued on for uncountable durations and yet when it ended, it had all been no more than a blink of an eye and as usual I was back in the same body. I was confronted with a pair of unknown gunmen but had no time to think about anything before they shot me. Each time I hit that death experience I remembered more about why I wasn't going past that point and back into life. After the 1992 death experience I knew that I was going to find the solution to my health problems. I just had no idea that I still had more than a decade to go of total misery and dragging an unwilling body along. For the rest of those years I had lots of death experiences and lots of recurrances. I never know what part of my life I was going to be living. I had perhaps a dozen death experiences a year until 2003. By 2005 the congestive heart failure had backed off as my body started healing with the right vitamins and food supplements, the "tantric meal" vitamins. In a concentrated form it was the recipe for healing damaged everything in my body. The results were so miraculously spectacular I had to work hard to validate it scientifically so it wasn't just a piece of individual magic, a magic meal that everybody would try to disprove because they can't allow "magic" to intrude into this world or whatever. Researchers can sure be vicious towards those not a member of their club.

In all this I have not included regular daily or so voluntary experiences of "ego" death in the practice of Alchemy. Those are ever so much easier than having the body go in extremis each time. Now all I have to do is hug my partner and open my heart with her, and she with me, and we both go. What used to take hours of preparation and much work now happens very quickly and easily and we both get struck by lightning with high dose Shakitpat yet again and get our "look ahead" again and again.

Something happened to me about 2005. I started feeling well enough that I started enjoying being alive and being able to do and enjoy the "chop wood, carry water" routine. I was very new in life then. I was waking up from 20 years of brainfog and was reborn with 2 decades worth of delayed changes happening all at once. Being able to swim or anything else each day was good. I started guiding people through the spiritual death experiences back in 1969 with the tools of the time, various psychedelics.

So I do understanding hanging around at the borderland of death for decades as well as the sudden "oh shit" situations (gun at head seems to me like one of those). My only remembered experience of that in this life lasted less than 2 seconds. Skiing down a pitch dark mountain in a white out if the sun had been up was a very nervous hour facing a very impersonal death. Falling down the mountain towards rocks and death was interesting as I found myself icy calm as I cartwheeled down the mountain towards certain death if I couldn't stop the fall before the headbashing rocks.



I

III
12-05-2012, 07:57 AM
Hi III.

Do you really think glass and metal are my tools?
I thought it was pretty clear that consciousness is my matter and dimensions my vases.


Awakened and sleeping are not the same as trees and mountain.
Awake and asleep are psychological projections/images - imagined, not real entities of substance.
So they are judgements - they don't exist without the words/labels.
But trees do still exist when we remove the label - there is something still there.
This is how i define judgement; this is how i see what judgement is.


What's perfection? I thought I was clear about that.
"What is", "THIS", "that which is", is perfection. Everything is perfection.
Everything exists from the One in perfect equilibrium.
The perfection I speak of is not fixed or rigid. It is constant flux -
always changing, always perfect.


Hi Solomon,

Do you really think glass and metal are my tools?

When you really just get down to it, hell no. But you appear to make some quantity of posts in that direction or did at some time.


I thought it was pretty clear that consciousness is my matter and dimensions my vases.

Now dimensions, that is something I can sink my n-dimensional teeth into, if we can agree on a language structure. So each additional dimension a being incorporates into their structure, requires a mapping to something controllable in order to "travel" within that dimensional level or however that might be said. Would that be able to map to some understanding that you might have? How might you say that?

Consciousness is expanded with each added dimension. Because all of this is a virtual mapping we can arrange it however is convienient. As in Patanjali's yoga sutras, the claim of something new, like an additional dimension, has to be teachable and somebody skilled in the art has to be able to "go" to that dimension of chambers (EJ Gold term) . Unlike some believe, again as part of the pragmatic rules, there are no secret chambers. Also, it must be an addition, Alchemies and other "code" that worked before must continue to work, backwards compatible. So for instance, each chamber might be looked at as having 16 or 21 or however many dimensions one might build before rescaling and doing it again, with the entire n-dimensional self then becomes the basic building block for the next n-dimensional model; the output feeding the input, fractal forever.

What's perfection? I thought I was clear about that.
"What is", "THIS", "that which is", is perfection. Everything is perfection.
Everything exists from the One in perfect equilibrium.
The perfection I speak of is not fixed or rigid. It is constant flux -
always changing, always perfect

Ok, just negotiating meaning.


Awakened and sleeping are not the same as trees and mountain.
Awake and asleep are psychological projections/images - imagined, not real entities of substance.

I don't know how to say the distinctions I would like to make. I can't say it with sufficient depth of accuracy. Perhaps another time on this one. Or perhaps you could say it differently.

So they are judgements - they don't exist without the words/labels.
But trees do still exist when we remove the label - there is something still there.
This is how i define judgement; this is how i see what judgement is.

Judgementalness - a trigger into unconscious behaviors. Also a clue to chase down for removing the trigger and increasing/changing ones understanding.

solomon levi
12-13-2012, 04:42 AM
Where is here? Or we could ask:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/423049_451156651597474_1742719024_n.jpg

III
12-18-2012, 05:45 PM
Where is here? Or we could ask:

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/423049_451156651597474_1742719024_n.jpg




Good question. The right question at the right time. I was struggling trying to figure out how to say what I've been trying to say. Thankyou. And EJ is ever so much funnier than I am.

http://www.gatewaysbooksandtapes.com/books/bk017.html (http://www.gatewaysbooksandtapes.com/books/bk017.html)

Here is Life in the Labyrinth. It has a paragraph on each chapter and a longer section from the beginning of the first chapter. EJ Gold explains so much so much better than I do. I get tonguetied and just can't get it out making sense. So I confuse you, Solomon, into thinking I am confused and talking about petty life as if I have forgotten everything you write. I'm not where you appear to respond to as if I were. BRINGING CREATION TO LIFE is what you could say the overall purpose is. At the micro detail level it is bringing each chamber to consciousness, connecting all the conscious chambers into the being, about removing the impediments to each chamber connecting in. It is the sacrifice of ordinary life that is made in order to live the life of the cosmic janitorial crew as EJ puts it. I am a fellow traveler with EJ. I've been participating in the efforts for a long long long perceived time, long before I ever came across EJ and friends

INTRODUCTION Unknowingly we voyage in a labyrinth, a macrodimensional maze of living electrical force, cloaked by a thick layer of ordinary life. Our most serious obstacle is the uncontrollable urge to convert everything to the familiar, to reduce it all to the level of the primate brain; to reject the living, breathing reality of the totality of all possible attention.
2. MAZE BRIGHTNESSWhen we awaken a higher learning process, we no longer exhibit confusion and disorientation in the macrodimensions. Through special internal processes which we can learn, we are able to penetrate far beyond the ordinary spectrum, into the macrodimensions, resembling consensus reality in form, but radically different in other ways, perceivable only with long, difficult training of the non-machine attention.
3. THE ULTIMATE PUZZLE The labyrinth, as could any maze, has puzzle-like characteristics; obeying the rules of puzzle-solving should, if the laws of the maze are understood and the signs are read correctly, enable us to voyage consciously as well as remembering previous passages and having a connected overview which takes into account everything we have ever learned in the maze.
4. THE KEYS TO ELEGANT VOYAGING The keys to elegant labyrinth voyaging are generally those little, nagging, insignificant items which we would ordinarily dismiss as inconsequential; one such key is the rudder with which we steer ourselves through the labyrinth.
5. NEURAL NETWORK PROJECTIONS Our knowledge of the environmental world is entirely dependent upon synaptic processing of organic perceptions which come to us at the speed of light; still, this is not fast enough to be in the present; bypassing these organically bound perceptions can provide us with the possibility of direct unfiltered views of the real world, unencumbered by the brain and its significances.
6. THE ILLUSION OF TIME As we upscale into the macrodimensions, we soon discover that what really prevents us from living macrodimensional life in the timeless, eternal state is our extreme psychological dependence upon the ordinary flow of time as measured by clocks; it is hard to accept time as a function of space and not a linear flow through events.
7. THE MYSTIC VISION The veil is not in the mind, but in the heart. Only the heart will lift the veil. When this happens, when we have softened and ripened, we will find ourselves to be at the very heart of the labyrinth, for which we have longed all our lives.
8. LIGHTNING HANDLERS ALWAYS CRACKLE We work to develop what remains after personal annihilation, because only that is truly able to work. To understand love is to dissolve the self and the subjective mysteries of appearances into it..
9. THE ART AND SCIENCE OF INVOCATION All macrodimensional invocation is focused on the activation of corresponding resonators between chambers until they vibrate in sympathetic unison. We also have the ability as a being to self-invoke, to expand our morphology into a space where we are not.
10. DATA RETRIEVAL IN THE HIGHER DIMENSIONS Shamanism was first developed thousands of years ago to satisfy macrodimensional needs, something rejected because it is not focused on common primate goals, subject only to higher laws beyond the reach or ken of the human world.
11. SHAPESHIFTING UP THE TOTEM Voyaging back and forth between the human and other dimensions, using powerful mental and emotional equations to produce a tangible construct, a totemic ladder, a dimensional elevator, the voyager shapeshifts through the totemic morphologies up, down or both at once.
12. ENCOUNTER WITH THE SIMURGH – A SCHOOL EXPERIMENT In the course of several centuries, it is only rarely that a large group of individuals may be able to openly organize penetrations into macrodimensions and explorations of sectors of the labyrinth ordinarily inaccessible to individuals or small groups.
13. THE INITIATION OF THE ABSOLUTEThe Absolute is fragmented into an infinite number of parts which take the shape of a multi-dimensional labyrinth. The Absolute in the form of the Creation is the labyrinth through which we are voyaging. The Great Work is an attempt to bring the corpse of Creation to the most profound state of livingness.
14. THE LABYRINTH VOYAGER’S QUATRAINAll phenomena is illusion.
Neither attracted nor repelled,
Not making any sudden moves—
My habits will carry me through.
15. GOING MACRODIMENSIONAL Often when we think that we are at our best, we are at our worst, and when we believe we're at our worst, we are at our best, bat we can be assured that if we are in the macrodimensions with presence and attention, always and automatically our functioning in the Work chamber conforms to law; we cannot help but be correct.
16. LIFE IN THE LABYRINTHWe work to overcome our fears of seeing the horror of the situation and to achieve the Heart of the Labyrinth where we are able to perform a special kind of work, view the Creation as a whole, and put life into it, if only momentarily.
17. BRINGING CREATION TO LIFE The effort to bring Creation to life is never-ending. At first distant, the actual possibility of performing this task will be achieved again and again during our work in the labyrinth. This talk is a reconstruction of a successful group voyage.
EPILOGUE: THE POWER OF ATTENTION Having made several attempts at penetrating the labyrinth, we will return to our starting point, asking ourselves what the shamanic voyager's secret is. The answer is simple – everything depends upon attention. It is a tool which we all possess; the rest is up to us.
AUTHOR'S AFTERWORD
APPENDIX I: MACRODIMENSIONS: A MATHEMATICAL MODELby David Christie
APPENDIX II: MACRODMENSIONS: A PHYSICAL PERSPECTIVE by Dr. Claude Needham AUTHOR'S FOREWORD -- A SERIOUS WARNING TO THE READER

Should we put references in the text to see appendix? If this were a university text, I might consider it; a course of abstract study and abstract interest... but this book is for serious voyagers, those who rea11y do intend to use these ideas, who aren't going to read a paragraph or two, nod thoughtfully, wander off to some coffeehouse and tear it apart along with Kant and Hegel for a few hours, then wander back home in time for the late night movie.

Further, I don't consider it my responsibility to rectify the failures of whatever education system you might have had the misfortune to endure in your forrnative years as a young, upcoming primate.
Having spent two miserable semesters teaching remedia1 third grade elementary leve1 English to adult university students who should have been exploring the mysteries of Beowulf in the origina1 text, singing the Song of Roland, softly chanting the Canterbury Tales, arguing first folio and second quarto alterations in Hamlet and following the intricacies of Philip Jose Farmer, Ezra Pound and Dorothy Parker, I feel that I've more than paid my debt to society, and you're welcome to it.
I am by laws much higher than any primate law, constrained to introduce these ideas to those who come to me in genuine necessity, but nothing in the rule-book says it has to be spoon-fed in monosyllabic, monocultura1 and mono-fonous truck-driver language... so it isn't.
In studying these ideas as presented here, you would be wise to be armed with a dictionary and a healthy education, although nothing in this material is beyond second-year college level English, and the few literary, mythological and philosophical referents – which were intentionally kept to a minimum except where necessary to the sense, germane to the concept or alexipharmic to the destruction of an elegant pun – are well within the grasp of the average high school graduate. If they aren't, perhaps you ought to consider returning to the high school from whence you came, and registering a complaint or enrolling in a night course, whichever seems most a propos... that's borrowed French for copacetic.
Admittedly, this text is a formidable prospect for those with an unsure grasp of the English language, for who the idea of a athalete with a perculator whose on his way irregardless to a realitor because he want's to avoid nucular conflict is a whole nother thing. If you found the previous paragraph disturbing, this book is probably for you; if it looked a11 right, maybe you should consider curling up with a good Harlequin novel... if one can be found.
BE IN LOVE

solomon levi
12-19-2012, 12:42 PM
Here is Life in the Labyrinth. It has a paragraph on each chapter and a longer section from the beginning of the first chapter. EJ Gold explains so much so much better than I do. I get tonguetied and just can't get it out making sense. So I confuse you, Solomon, into thinking I am confused and talking about petty life as if I have forgotten everything you write. I'm not where you appear to respond to as if I were. BRINGING CREATION TO LIFE is what you could say the overall purpose is. At the micro detail level it is bringing each chamber to consciousness, connecting all the conscious chambers into the being, about removing the impediments to each chamber connecting in. It is the sacrifice of ordinary life that is made in order to live the life of the cosmic janitorial crew as EJ puts it. I am a fellow traveler with EJ. I've been participating in the efforts for a long long long perceived time, long before I ever came across EJ and friends.


Being able to communicate clearly is part of the alchemical process - solve et coagula - or the definition of spagyrics:
"The term 'Spagyria' has been used by Paracelsus in his book Liber Paragranum, deriving from the Greek words 'spao'
and 'ageiro', the essential meaning of which is to 'separate and to combine'."

We may be great seers (expansion/Jupiter/wave/dreaming) but we also have to bring that heavenly vision back
down to earth (contraction/Saturn/particle/stalking).

Jesus as a child was recognised in the temple for his abilities to converse with the Elders:
"And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers." - Luke 2:47

But the greek word which is here translated as "understanding" is synesei, and the word translated as "answers" is apokrisesin.
Synesei means "a running together" which is the ability to travel from many to one/dreaming as CC calls it.
Apokrisesin - both apo and krisis mean "separation, judgement" and refer to what CC called stalking.
So synesei is synthesis and apokrisesin is analysis - putting together and taking apart - solve et coagula.

Anyway, I'm sure you do know all this. I'm not confused about you. I'm just communicating clearly, for you and anyone else
that may be reading. My point is to encourage everyone to bring their heavenly vision into practical earth. We could excuse
ourselves and call it paradise (para = beyond; dise = to say) but that wouldn't be alchemy. As below, so above has to be in
balance with as above, so below. This is what I am being pressed towards anyway. We each have to become authors/authorities
in our own right.

"They were amazed at his teaching, because his message had authority." - Luke 4:32
"When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; (http://bible.cc/matthew/7-28.htm) for He was teaching them as one having (http://bible.cc/matthew/7-29.htm)
authority, and not as their scribes." - Matthew 7:28

The greek word translated as authority is "exousia" meaning ex = from, out of; ousia = being, essence
Interesting relation - greek Parousia is the word for "Presence". Literally, it means "the being beside" which
see Castaneda on the double ("through a glass darkly" thread).

What comes to mind again on communication is this NLP presupposition. I don't think you heard me the first
time I posted it. http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2412-presuppositions

Adhering to this presupposition is a sign of understanding, compassion and patience.
Communication/alchemy is not for everyone.




Further, I don't consider it my responsibility to rectify the failures of whatever education system you might have had the misfortune to endure in your forrnative years as a young, upcoming primate.
Having spent two miserable semesters teaching remedia1 third grade elementary leve1 English to adult university students who should have been exploring the mysteries of Beowulf in the origina1 text, singing the Song of Roland, softly chanting the Canterbury Tales, arguing first folio and second quarto alterations in Hamlet and following the intricacies of Philip Jose Farmer, Ezra Pound and Dorothy Parker, I feel that I've more than paid my debt to society, and you're welcome to it.
I am by laws much higher than any primate law, constrained to introduce these ideas to those who come to me in genuine necessity, but nothing in the rule-book says it has to be spoon-fed in monosyllabic, monocultura1 and mono-fonous truck-driver language... so it isn't.
In studying these ideas as presented here, you would be wise to be armed with a dictionary and a healthy education, although nothing in this material is beyond second-year college level English, and the few literary, mythological and philosophical referents – which were intentionally kept to a minimum except where necessary to the sense, germane to the concept or alexipharmic to the destruction of an elegant pun – are well within the grasp of the average high school graduate. If they aren't, perhaps you ought to consider returning to the high school from whence you came, and registering a complaint or enrolling in a night course, whichever seems most a propos... that's borrowed French for copacetic.
Admittedly, this text is a formidable prospect for those with an unsure grasp of the English language, for who the idea of a athalete with a perculator whose on his way irregardless to a realitor because he want's to avoid nucular conflict is a whole nother thing. If you found the previous paragraph disturbing, this book is probably for you; if it looked a11 right, maybe you should consider curling up with a good Harlequin novel... if one can be found.
[/SIZE]BE IN LOVE


lol! Yeah, definitely not familiar with that presupposition.
I prefer Krishnamurti who is not sitting there as a teacher with a system in front of pupils/primates who don't know.
It rings with more "authority". But to each his own. The fact that this guy spent "miserables semesters" tells us plenty
about his wisdom. I just posted a CC quote on my facebook yesterday (or day before) - "The trick is in what we
emphasize. We can make ourselves miserable or we can make ourselves strong. The effort is the same."

Anyway, I am present enough to not dismiss him - I hear what he says. At the same time, these are the words of a "stalker".
Whoever wrote this also doesn't consider it his responsibility to address the whole. His intent is separation/hierarchy. Kind of sad IMO.

"Further, I don't consider it my responsibility to rectify the failures of whatever education system you might have had the misfortune to endure in your forrnative years as a young, upcoming primate."

Well, there are those who are willing to assume this responsibility and have a greater impact and more successful/objective communication.

solomon levi
12-19-2012, 02:05 PM
addressing the content of the book:

1-3: agree. nothing to add.
4. I'm not sure what this means to the author.
5. "bypassing these organically bound perceptions can provide us with the possibility of direct unfiltered views of the real world, unencumbered by the brain and its significances."
ok. But instead of "brain" he should have said neocortex.
All the mysteries are in the brain. There are parts of the brain that don't deal with the neuronets or time
as it is usually reckoned. I was taught alot about the brain in Ramtha school. You'd be surprised.
Also, I posted this video somewhere on the forums before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

Again, the two hemispheres are stalking (left) and dreaming (right).
"Again, human beings are divided in two. The right side, which is called the tonal, encompasses everything the intellect can conceive of. The left side, called the nagual, is a realm of indescribable features: a realm impossible to contain in words. The left side is perhaps comprehended, if comprehension is what takes place, with the total body; thus its resistance to conceptualization. All the faculties, possibilities, and accomplishments of sorcery, from the simplest to the most astounding, are in the human body itself."

Since the right brain controls the left side of the body and vice-versa, the comparison is accurate.

6. Good description. I call it horizontal (linear time) and vertical time (space - dimensional).

7. ok. a matter of definitions. For some hermeticists, all is mind. But yeah, the veil is
between the third and fourth (heart) centers. The right side/tonal is radio, infrared, visible light and
the left side/nagual is uv, x-ray, gamma and cosmic rays. I agree in those terms, that the heart is
the veil-conqueror.

8-12 agreed.
13. very nice! So one can understand why I differentiate between Universe and created universe,
just as Gold does here.

14. I'm sure this is a specialised definition of habits, or a new program. It's not a word I'd
choose. Obviously first attention habits are different than second attention ones. First att
habits keep us locked in our ordinary mundane perceptions. But habit, as another word for fixation,
is an understandable choice. For ex, my habit is fluidity, dissolution.

15-16 agree
17. Yes. I've been seeing the same about the Philosophers' stone. I mean, there is no end
to the work; no end to infinity.
"To be a man of knowledge has no permanence. One is never a man of knowledge, not really. Rather, one becomes a man of knowledge for a very brief instant, after defeating the four natural enemies." - CC

I think this is very important, (but then it's just my current coordinates). The reason the initial subject
cannot be named is because it is always changing - it is this present moment, this present comprehension.
There is no end to a circle/Ouroboros, fractal.

"EPILOGUE: THE POWER OF ATTENTION Having made several attempts at penetrating the labyrinth, we will return to our starting point, asking ourselves what the shamanic voyager's secret is. The answer is simple – everything depends upon attention. It is a tool which we all possess; the rest is up to us."


Agreed! CC says it eloquently:
"When I talk about time, I am not referring to something which is measured by the movement of a clock. Time is the essence of attention; the Eagle's emanations are made out of time; and properly, when one enters into any aspect of the other self, one is becoming acquainted with time."
CC calls them "first attention" and "second attention" (and third).

Attention is like the aperature on a camera. Complete attention is diffused, Oneness/Absolute/Solve.
Concentrated attention is coagula/detail/particulars/specifics.

III
12-19-2012, 08:46 PM
Hi Solomon,

Just a clarification on something you questioned, the voyagers quatrain. "My habits will carry me through". These are not the habits of the human type, they are the habirts of the eternal voyager that is quite at home in the labyrinth. Having read the book, been there and done that I understand his usage.

Believe me, when counting on the voyager habits to carry through, any interferance of the ego (primate mind in EJs usage) comes up with the wrong thing. I've known EJ for more than 20 years. When I was in deep deep trouble it was EJ and friends who gave me the helping hand I needed. I've worked quite a bit with them on and off since then. They supply much information and a variety of "tools" for this work.

I'm reasonably widely read in the esoteric literature. There are some authors whose language and constructs resonate in me and take me to the space or chamber or whatever. CC does so to a modest extent, EJ and Vivekananda to an extremely great amount. I also do well in invocational Goddess circles and the metaphorical language used there. However, the vast majority of writers strike me as strictly reguritationists; repeating endlessly that which they have read elsewhere and adding nothing, especially no understanding, to the mix. Rajneesh was like that for me. There was nothing wrong in what he said, it was just shallow with no added understanding or knowing. That may be my understanding, not anything inherent in the writer. Maybe it is just an acknowledgement that it doesn't add to my understanding, whether extending it or seeing a different approach or angle.

As I tell those I'm working with, it's not about the content. While interaction with Joe and Sally might look like a dinner party it can also be an invocational event into metaphysical realms allowing all of us to grow, if looked past the petty content which is sort of the script on the surface but is not what is happening. Those there for ego reasons would find it very dull as it isn't about the strutting primping ego.

So this "life" I am living, can shape me (the being) in certain ways, add wisdom and make it part of my being. There is a conscious individuality as another writer put it that is NOT the petty ego living a dream life. When one lives it consciously, consciously edits, repeats the Alchemical sequences, and brings this part of things to life as it were. One constructs one's "higher body" as some call it. As there is nothing physical about it.

This whole thing can look like a puzzle and even be solved. As one "solves" it one becomes something else. And as one solves one level, the next becomes visible. There is a change in scale at each such "level" of that which is being solved.

"Living strategically" is critical as CC points out. As many have said one must have a worthy opponent. I prefer that opponent to be playing cooperatively rather than competively but of course I can't control the choices of another.

The shamanic/Alchemical viewpoints, in my understanding, is really quite different from the passive meditator. One approach is to strip away everything to become the nothing/nobody we have always been. Another approach is to grow to become everything and hence nothing/nobody in particular.

And as a note, I misinterpret every time you use CC (Carlos), as for me and friends CC is Coincidence Control and have to keep in mind the contextual overloading of that "CC" tag.

solomon levi
12-21-2012, 08:30 PM
:D
you seem to relate perfectly to what I said in Paul Foster Case.
You said yourself here that the higher self isn't physical...

"So this "life" I am living, can shape me (the being) in certain ways, add wisdom and make it part of my being. There is a conscious individuality as another writer put it that is NOT the petty ego living a dream life. When one lives it consciously, consciously edits, repeats the Alchemical sequences, and brings this part of things to life as it were. One constructs one's "higher body" as some call it. As there is nothing physical about it."

There is nothing physical about the higher body... the higher body doesn't incarnate physically unless
it does so in sacrifice to the ego... confusing to talk about... it doesn't incarnate at all - the ego does.
Yet the ego has no physical substantial existence - only psychological.
It's all a matter of identity. If we identify with the ego and the body, the namarupa (name and form), we reincarnate.
If we identify with the higher self, we don't. If we identify with the All, we can do either one.
I especially relate to the latter. I don't care to exclude anything from the Infinite potential that I am.
I have an ego without believing it is my identity. It is simply one conglomeration of energetic emanations
among many. I have learned to use others, to see through non-physical eyes. Like you, I am sure.

It's hard to talk about physicality even, because every plane is relatively physical to its frequency body.
For ex, the etheric plane is physical to an etheric body, the mental plane is physical to the mental body.
Physical = vibrating at a similar frequency. But generally, physical means earth density material.

solomon levi
12-22-2012, 04:22 PM
(posted this on facebook, thought it might fit here)

A Seer is one who exercises their capacity to "respond to the perceptual solicitations of a world outside of the description we have learned to call reality."
What does it mean to free your mind? Open the cage and let it fly away. If you were meant to be together, it will come back to you, right. :D
When we truly inquire into "mind", as the great scientists of consciousness do (aka philosophers, seers, shamans, alchemists, yogis, kabbalists, mystics, etc), what I find is an energetic configuration designed to translate infinity/chaos into something orderly and manageable for the human form/physical being. For the sake of context, we use a different "translator" or energetic configuration when we are dreaming or having out of body experiences.
There are so many ways, such a diversity of energetic configurations which are possible for "mind" (like water's ability to fill any mold we pour it into)... it seems a shame to go through life using just one which has been imposed on us since birth by our peers. And when we make the transition into realms of lesser density (which some have called death, some initiation), what a surprise to those who have not inquired... our former mind is completely inapplicable. Indeed, the insistance on applying the same mind/construct to other realms has been termed "hell" by some, "haunting" by others, and is the "engine" of the wheel of rebirth as I see it (not good or bad - just one option among many; a conscious option for some, an unconscious option for some. If you want to eat a Twinkie, soaking in a hot tub while watching Dexter on a 52" plasma screen, you'll find the human mold quite accomodating and necessary).

(the following is additional - was not on facebook)
So "here" is a signature, a selection of some emanations and a dismissal or ignoring of others. Castaneda called this process "skimming". The combinations are endless. The amazing thing, and for some the unfortunate thing, is that we have managed to fix this dream so intently that it appears as the only possible description/configuration/aggregate. Death shows us that it is not, but by then it is too late for some. Death is not liberation anymore than this reality on Earth is - life's what you make it. If you haven't exercised your other aggregates, you'll be lying comatose like Neo who had never used his muscles before. I could put it this way - in alchemy we must use mediators... air to move from water to fire, for example. Well, if you've been first attention all your life and then die into third attention without exercising the second attention, it's too great a transition to assimilate. You simply cannot maintain the cohesion of your emanations - like crystal shattering at a certain frequency.

"He said that the energy locked within us, in the dormant emanations, has a tremendous force and an incalculable scope. We can only vaguely assess the scope of that tremendous force, if we consider that the energy involved in perceiving and acting in the world of everyday life is a product of the alignment of hardly one-tenth of the emanations encased in man's cocoon.

"What happens at the moment of death is that all that energy is released at once," he continued. "Living beings at that moment become flooded by the most inconceivable force. It is not the rolling force that has cracked their gaps, because that force never enters inside the cocoon; it only makes it collapse. What floods them is the force of all the emanations that are suddenly aligned after being dormant for a lifetime. There is no outlet for such a giant force except to escape through the gap."


For comparison, one can imagine the energy released by the splitting of an atom. There are worlds, "universes", dimensions, locked inside the 7 shells of an atom - the same as locked within the 7 bands of organic beings, the same as locked within the bands/atmosphere of the planet...
The gap is an energetic area below the navel which must open to perceive other realms, but if opened too much results in death.

III
12-24-2012, 07:54 AM
:D
you seem to relate perfectly to what I said in Paul Foster Case.
You said yourself here that the higher self isn't physical...

"So this "life" I am living, can shape me (the being) in certain ways, add wisdom and make it part of my being. There is a conscious individuality as another writer put it that is NOT the petty ego living a dream life. When one lives it consciously, consciously edits, repeats the Alchemical sequences, and brings this part of things to life as it were. One constructs one's "higher body" as some call it. As there is nothing physical about it."

There is nothing physical about the higher body... the higher body doesn't incarnate physically unless
it does so in sacrifice to the ego... confusing to talk about... it doesn't incarnate at all - the ego does.
Yet the ego has no physical substantial existence - only psychological.
It's all a matter of identity. If we identify with the ego and the body, the namarupa (name and form), we reincarnate.
If we identify with the higher self, we don't. If we identify with the All, we can do either one.
I especially relate to the latter. I don't care to exclude anything from the Infinite potential that I am.
I have an ego without believing it is my identity. It is simply one conglomeration of energetic emanations
among many. I have learned to use others, to see through non-physical eyes. Like you, I am sure.

It's hard to talk about physicality even, because every plane is relatively physical to its frequency body.
For ex, the etheric plane is physical to an etheric body, the mental plane is physical to the mental body.
Physical = vibrating at a similar frequency. But generally, physical means earth density material.

Hi Solomon,

As far as I can tell this whole Earth isn't physical. It's just one of many gazillions of levels of illusion. We are running afoul of language here. We are just missing on something.

So trying to keep it simple, directly said in your own words, please help me find the words I am looking for. Without getting off on side issues. I know the difficulty in all that.

From your other reply:
Quantum popping happens thousands of times a second.

What is quantum popping?



So let us say that one becomes a "successful" Alchemist becoming a conscious individuality and consciously returns to life here for non ego reasons. What do you call it? It isn't an ego or variation thereof. This being conscious of being a unique manifestation of ONE, an unique individual consciousness, self designed/evolved, but still a conscious manifestation of ONE. And thoroughly non-dualist. Any size being can "live" as a human. I don't understand all these limitations and strict contructions you appear to want to limit the way the creation is experienced. Or I am misunderstanding. As I said it's like we just are not making understanding connections someplace basic.

So let's keep it simple.

We each have a unique manifestation of conscious being that while both part of the ONE are not identical.

We are each aware of our uniqueness? So we have eternity to be conscious in? So there is a "proper" or "improper" way of using our consciousness for eternity?

solomon levi
12-24-2012, 10:35 AM
"As far as i can tell this whole earth isn't physical."

I just defined physical. You're not going to tell me your fingers pass through the computer keyboard
as you type, are you? Vibrating at similar speeds equals physical. You can say it's not physical and
I could agree. Even though we're mostly made of space, we still don't fall through the chair! What's
inaccurate about my definition?


What quantum popping means to me is that creation is being uncreated or returning to the void
thousands of times a second. If you blink your eyes real fast and look at the room around you,
it is something like that. We only emphasize the created parts - like how we watch a film and
don't see the black lines between frames. Quantum popping is synonymous with flux - we,
awareness, fluctuate between conscious and unconscious thousands of times a second, but the
tonal has learned to perceive "reality" as if it were consistent without interruption.


What do i call one who reincarnates without an ego? I don't know - I'll tell you when i see one. ;)
Are you speaking hypothetically? There is the idea this could happen... I don't know if it actually
happens. There are those who incarnate for the first time, but that's a different story.
The only rule I mention is resonance or frequency signature. It's not my rule. But yeah, any
above frequency rules the ones below and could manifest there if it wanted. I don't know
why it would do it through reincarnation. You tell me.
Yes, I agree a solar consciousness can manifest itself here as the Son/Sun of "God". I also see that
we are all stars on another level and yet here we are. People who don't have an ego by my definition
live in the unknown - the ego is composed of the past/memory alone. Without the ego you live in
the present. The present doesn't "re" anything - it does everything for the first time. So "let's do that again"
just doesn't occur to a non-ego.
So you tell me a non-ego reason to come back. Though we probably disagree on what ego is.

The "proper" way of using consciousness for eternity is to make known the unknown.
To repeat the known is what egos do.
I'm not saying that's an immutable law. There's always exceptions. Our discussion will be very difficult if we are
starting with the exceptions instead of the basics. Basically, we have a planet full of egos and people who
have learned or realised they are not their egos during this lifetime. Then we also have all kinds of visitors
and anomolies that may be here for reasons other than the wheel of rebirth. There are also alot of people
incarnating here for the first time without ego reasons.
A huge part of what gets us out of ego is the love of these other realms. It's just a simple fact that most
people are going to continue to explore the unknowns instead of coming back here to be born again. But this
is a remarkable time in earth's history - there are lots of exceptions - people who want to help the transition.
Most of them did not just figure stuff out in their last life and decide to come back. Most are extraterrestrial
and/or extradimensional. So are we, but most of us have had many many lifetimes here.

The only laws I talk about are not earth laws, but laws applying to consciousness anywhere, anytime. These
laws are resonance/signature and reciprocity.