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Ezalor
11-22-2012, 03:23 PM
Some time ago once I was talking with Androgynus a lot over Skype. I told him about what I know and remember of the story of the Universe, the hierarchy of beings, deities, immortals and other things. Yesterday we were talking again, and he said he things it might be useful for others if I share these things, and he would be happy if I decide to write about it in the forums. I was thinking about this for a while, not being sure that it would be good idea to talk about these (relatively) openly, but well, so be it. I tell you what I can.

But I shall warn you first: although the clarity and certainty of given elements caries, generally what I will describe is based upon my memories, and in many case was confirmed by outside sources. So I hold no doubt on the majority of these informations. They however, may indeed contradict the personal beliefs and views of some of you. In such case, I won't say you are wrong... but I won't either say that my words are but a personal opinion, as I consider the core of it proved facts. My aim to stay honest doesn't allow me to soften my words only to avoid friction with others.

So... let's get to the topic.


1; The creation of the Universe

There is so much that can be said about it, and so few that is generally known. Even if we add all the holy books of the planet up, what we get is a tiny fragment of truth hidden in a mountain if obscurity. But first of all, what I have to clarify is what are the questions we should never ask.

We should never ask the ultimate questions: What is the final meaning of life? Why the Universe was created? Who really created it, and how? What was before it? And so on... Why we should never ask these questions is simply that we can never find the answers, since we are only fragments of the Universe, and these questions could only be answered by the Universe itself, as a whole.

So my ultimate answer is: It doesn't matter. We could keep asking these questions forever but for what? It is better to just accept that it doesn't matter for us, as beings. It does only matter for the Whole.

So, well... there is much philosophy, theory and practical information we could say about the creation, but most of it would be nothing new, nothing you can't find somewhere already.

So what I want to talk about, is how the Universe IS BEING created. As creation did never stop. It is endless, or at least, ends only with the Universe itself. And more importantly, it is a scaling process.

The first step was the creation - or coming to existence - of the beings we used to call "The first ones". They, the First Gods had no personality, no emotions, no free will - they were but powerful aspects. How they came to existence from the nothing, is one of those ultimate questions we should not ask. But then, they created other beings, smaller than themselves: greater gods, smaller gods, and even smaller beings. Then, the greater gods created as well smaller gods and smaller beings, and the smaller gods created beings too. Here, creation looks like the roots of a tree. All these beings were part of the creation, and they continued it. And now, even the smallest being is doing this work of creation, every thing that lives, creates things smaller than themselves. Even if they seem bigger, sometimes.

So the creation is a collective process, and every being takes part in it. Alongside creation, there is also destruction, but as long as there is more creation than destruction, the Universe becomes bigger and bigger. The scientists caught this kind of well with their "big boom" theory: The beginning of creation was ultimately fast and grandiose: the greatest things were created the fastest, and as the Universe become bigger and richer, it slowed down. The smaller something is, the more time it takes to create it.

And probably, if one day destruction overcomes creation, the process reverses, and the Universe shifts into un-creation with an increasing speed, mirroring its creation backwards. But this shouldn't happen very soon - at least, this is what we are fighting for, this is why the Great War, which is older than our Sun, wages on: to keep the Order and Chaos, the Light and Darkness, the Positive and Negative in balance so creation can continue.


2; The hierarchy of beings

As I said already, there were the First Gods. Then greater and smaller gods, demigods, daemons, planetary spirits, dragons, Unicorns, elementals, various spirits and so on, and so on... Among these beings is a hierarchy, which isn't only about power and age, but it also differentiates them.

The First Gods had no soul. They had no Spark. They had no feelings, no heart, no higher self, and most importantly: No evolution. They were but principles, separated directly from the One. They were, and are eternal: They may die, get destroyed, but they never change, they never develop. They born from the Nothing, directly.

However, when they created other gods, they did it a different way: rather than just shaping them directly from the One, they took a tiny fragment of themselves, and placed it into each being they created. This is called the Spark. Since each of these First Gods were different in their composition, their Sparks as well were different, thus the beings they created were different as well - they were actually all unique, but they could have been characterized into main groups based on which First God gave them their Spark.

Then the other gods, when created beings, repeated the process, and from themselves, placed a Spark in them, which Spark also contained a bit of their own Spark they got from their creators.

And this is why we have different "soul families" and "races". And the Spark is what makes us able to learn, to change, to evolve, either for the better or the worse. Without it, we were like teh First Gods: never changing, never learning, never feeling...

So there are many many types of souls, and contrary to the popular belief incorporated into many spiritual system, even in their perfect state, these souls are not the same. They are different. They are not all brothers and sisters, or at least not in a greater extent that they are brothers and sisters to the gods themselves. And because if this, there are no ultimate paths, or ultimate solutions.

Even though we are all made of the One, we will always be different, and something that works for one soul family or race, does not work for others.

And here comes a great flaw of almost all spiritual systems and religions on this planet: They are designed to be human exclusive. They are designed to work for the human soul-race, and while they may more-or less still work for other races from the same family (In the case of humans, Atlantisians being an example of another soul race from the same soul family), they won't work for other souls.

And as life has it, a soul does not always have the chance, or decision to incarnate into the body that corresponds to his soul race. That is, a great number of animals, such as horses or wolves for example, belong to a distinct soul race, normally. But it also happens that a wolf or horse soul born into a human body, and vice-versa. And for a non-human soul, neither of the spiritual systems on this planet will work.

(Well, probably with the exception of a greatly purified alchemy, which already is based upon Universal principles, independent of human specifications. But anything that includes Kabalah, or any other spiritual/religious system designed for humans, will not work too well for others.)

There are of course Universal principles, that work for everyone, but complete systems always contain lot of human-specific elements. Let's take just one example: The pentagram isn't simply a general magical symbol, and the symbol of the number 5 - it is in fact, the symbol of Man. That is, a pentagram as magical focus is probably the best focus for humans, but might not really work very well for a wolf stuck in a human body.

And needless to say: there are a great number of non-human souls in human bodies, and the majority of them will never realize it. There are however also genuine humans who want to think they are not human but something better, something more, and build up a life of lies around themselves.


3; On bodies and shapes, and other forms of existence

Our human centered world is greatly based around misunderstandings and lies. One of the greatest lie is that humans were superior. In fact, humans are just animals too. Of course, no one denies that different physical bodies have different abilities, so for example the body of a dog or cat won't be able for the same high precision object manipulation, or the same form and complexity of thinking as teh human body and brain. But this doesn't mean they are lessers. The body is but a medium. A human soul born in an animal body has nothing more but the same abilities at their disposal than any other of that species. In the same way, animal souls in a human body are indeed able to use its abilities.

And most importantly: there are multiple forms.

While we know animals in the form we see them, there are actually more possible forms. An animal that on this planet exists in a four legged form with a small brain, might in the same time, on another planet exist in a two legged form with a big brain, that can do things like humans: build houses, forge swords, and - use magick.

There are however, still differences. For example, horses, even if they exist in a two legged form, are generally peaceful and loving, existing in harmony with nature, while humans are usually a source of disharmony and destruction in most worlds.

So all in all, the abilities of a body by no means signify the abilities of a soul.

And then to this come the various other forms of existence. Many beings did never have a physical form, but existed in one or more of the numerous ways of non-physical existence. While physical existence means only that you are concentrated on the physical plane but also exist on the non-physical planes, it is not true the other way around: spirits do not need to have anything connecting them to the physical world. But even these spirits might end up being imprisoned in a body.


4; Various worlds

The Universe is greater than any of us could imagine, and the number of worlds (planets with life on it) is also extremely great. So if the trouble with the different soul families and races wasn't enough, well, any system developed for this world does only work here. For example, our whole astrology only works in our solar system.

Now, nothing guarantees that you incarnate on the same planet all the time. So if you learn something that works here, it will be useless elsewhere. And this is the other great flaw of the majority of spiritual systems we have here: they are exclusive to this world. However, they are usually presented as Universal, since the creators of these systems never actually considered that this miserable little ball of mud might not be the whole Universe, moreover, it is being fairly unimportant. No matter what happens to the Earth, it doesn't have much effect on the Universe.

So let's face it: Our planet is just as unique and important as one house in a huge city - in other words, IT ISN'T.


5; Conclusion

So probably you already see where I'm going with all this.

I say, that our "universal truths" are probably neither universal, nor truth, because they are only true in this single world, and only for a part of humanity. And trying to understand the Universe through a system which was designed by humans, for humans, considering this single planet as the center of the Universe, or at least, the main world, and considering humans as the ultimate race... well... It is kinda like trying to understand the North-American continent by examining a single tiny village somewhere in the desert, or better said, like trying to understand a desert by examining a single drop of sand. Indeed, the tiny fragment can tell something about the whole, but considering it to be the whole is a great mistake.

In this regard, Alchemy is a relatively safe path, when done through the practical way, and cleaned of Kabalah and everything else that is not truly Universal, since the rules of magick, alchemy, chemistry and physics are the same everywhere in the Universe.


------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ------- -------
So... this is what I could have said. I hope I managed to express myself clear enough, to get the message through. It shall be said, I didn't sleep in like 20 hours, so my mind might not function the best now. But I wanted to finish this. If anything is unclear, please ask for clarification and I shall answer once I had some sleep.

Ezalor
11-25-2012, 12:24 PM
Well, reading back my lines now, I made an awful lot of spelling mistakes in that tired state... I wanted to edit and correct, but I can't, so that's it. However, I decided to add a few more things. (And I didn't sleep again. :/)


The Great War

A war that is almost as old as the Universe itself... the fight of two sides we usually just refer to as "Order" and "Chaos". In fact, they are collective terms The former for those beings who are trying to keep the balance of the Universe - that is, the balance of joy and suffering, creation and destruction, light and darkness. The latter group are those who try to break this balance - the overwhelming majority of them tries to shift the balance towards the negative, the dark, the painful, while there are a few who try to do the opposite, to create an idealistic utopia, which in fact, hurts the balance just as much as the other side. Since almost the beginnings, these two sides are fighting each other thorough the Universe, and the front line of the battle moves from world to world. Great many worlds have been completely destroyed by the forces of Chaos, before the front line moved to this planet Earth. The result of this battle, the achievements of the Chaos side is what we see today: Consumer society, brainwashing, faked politics, hate, and a general loss of freedom. And the forces of the other side are the enlightened, the spiritual, the seeker... in other words, WE. Even if we don't realize, we play our role in the Great War - only by seeking truth and balance, and doing what is right, we already do our part in the fight. But there is much more to do than that.

Where 2012 comes in, is that the fights for this world are becoming greater, and soon the tides may turn. Around the Winter Solstice, there will be a great opportunity, when vast amount of power can be controlled and employed. Now, it's like voting, really: the side that has the more "followers" (or "slaves") will be able to use it more. If one side will stand stronger, their strength will be multiplies, which will result in fairly noticeable changes, while if the sides will be balanced, then nothing really special will happen, but rather, both the "good things" and the "shit" will be more, but still negating each other. Actually, that would still be considered as a good result, since about twenty years ago, it pretty much looked like the Chaos will steamroll over everything. I saw it... it was shown to me. And for a long time, I lived my days waiting for the great destruction which I thought is granted to happen. On the contrary however, things started to get much better than I expected quite a few years ago, so right now I'm optimistic. Who knows, we may even be able to really turn the tide and use this opportunity to strengthen the balance.

We will see. Soon.


Immortals

If you are indeed interested in truth, and probably also in the Great War, then you shall be aware of the Immortals. First, let me quote from the High Priestess of Epona, who laid this out pretty well:


On life, death and immortality (http://moonmare.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/on-life-death-and-immortality/)

The first and most important thing we have to state right at the beginning is that death is not the opposite of life. Without a firm understanding of this statement it is simply impossible to understand the true nature of these concepts.

Death is the opposite of birth. When we are born, we enter this world and when we die, we leave it. Birth and death are the very same actions of walking through doors: you can enter a room through a door or leave a room through a door.

What is life then? Life is the act of walking around in the house. And here we come again to a very important point, that we are speaking about the whole house with all its rooms. It’s a very big mistake to fall into the trap of thinking that life can exist in only one room.

The consequence of these truths is that life actually doesn’t begins with birth and doesn’t ends with death. Birth is not a new life. It’s a new incarnation, or to keep by our example: a new entry to a room. And during our life we can go through many rooms, we can live through many incarnations… we can die and born many times, and it is still one, single life that we are living.

This means that our life essentially has no beginning and no end, which would bring us to the conclusion that we are all immortals, because again immortality is usually very misunderstood. Most people actually think that being immortal means that you stay in one room for the rest of your life, because you never die. That is not so. Immortality isn’t about death. It is about memory.

Life has strange ways and for some reason each time we walk from one room to the other it makes us forget about everything that happened in the previous room. We can define this as mortality. Immortality is simply the opposite: immortality is about not forgetting.

So if one is immortal then he remembers all his incarnations and all the lessons he had learnt along the path of his life. An immortal being lives his life as it is, a long act of walking from one room to another and serving his purpose in each incarnation the best he can.

Mortal beings on the other hand start with a clean mind in each incarnation. They have to learn everything again and they very rarely have access to any of the memories of their previous incarnations.

While you certainly don’t have to agree with the way I describe these concepts, to understand my other texts, you have to be familiar with this line of thought, because I’m going to be consistent about the usage of these words and I’ll use them in the sense I have outlined above.


Immortals are powerful beings who have a great effect on the world around them. There are not many of them, in a fight, one immortal worths a hundred other warriors (or mages). And they are always where they have to be. Probably some of us in this forum are immortals - and some of us were once, but fell, and now are working on reclaiming themselves.


The highest form of magick

Magick has many forms and ways. The lowest forms are when you use rituals and tools, often without understanding them fully. A higher form is, when you use your words, and your movements. Even higher form is the use of pure will. However, they all require energy. You need to get that energy, or channel it from somewhere, and need to control it as well. In theory, everything is possible, given you have enough energy.

However, there is a higher form of magic. It's power in theory, is unlimited, and the best thing is: it requires no energy! Now how is that possible? Well... that's why it is called "The Magick of Unity". It's basis is simply nothing but your unity with the Universe. The more you are in harmony with the Universe, the more you are balanced, the more you can consciously realize this unity, the more you can affect it.

Since you are One with everything, in fact, you ARE everything - and if you are everything, then you control everything.

With a simple example: If you want to bend a metal pole with lower forms of magick, you will need tremendous amount of energy to do that. So much energy, that it would be stupid to waste it on that, when it's simpler to just beat that pole with a hammer until it bends. However, with the Magick of Unity, you don't need energy, because you DO NOT affect anything. You don't bend that pole. You DO BEND yourself - since you are the pole.

You do not create a change. You become the change.

And this is the highest form of magick, and the core of Creation. And since Alchemy is but the attempt of understanding and mastering Creation, the Magick of Unity might be considered as the ultimate Alchemical transmutation.

It might be interesting to re-read the Tabula Smaragdina in this light... and probably, to think about how can you best perform an Alchemical operation in a way that you are part of the operation rather than an outside force.

Ezalor
11-30-2012, 02:34 AM
I've been just reading the Fundamentals of Dubuis, when, to my slight surprise and positive disappointment I came across a sentence, where Dubuis happens to - even if very roughly - describe the Immortals described in the quote in my last post. Dubuis was describing the phases of re-ascension, death and "second death" in an appendix, which he closed thus:


If the death of the physical body cannot be avoided because of its density you should however and as soon as you can refuse Paradise, that is the second death. As a matter of fact, if you refuse the second death, the intermediary vehicles are no longer destroyed and a continuity of consciousness results which is true immortality.
I find his description quite blurry and lacking, but the term "continuity of consciousness" is as exact and precise as it can be. So it is very nice to see a conventional (in a non-pejorative but rather descriptive sense) occultist making a mention of this, since it tends to be widely unknown, or at least ignored.

Kiorionis
11-30-2012, 03:39 AM
Hi
i enjoy your posts on this topic.
the 'immortals' remind me of forming an immortal child in taoist alchemy.


In the Kan and Li exercises, the student of Taoist Yoga actually forms an Immortal Child within himself. This Immortal Child is carefully grown and nurtured and then transferred first into the Soul Body and then after much work into the Spirit Body.

lwowl
11-30-2012, 05:28 PM
I like your creation Myth a lot. Would you write a little on the initiation source of your revelations? I know the same “thing” from a different perspective relative to the initiation I experienced that continues:

9-10-94:
Took about one ounce of elixir in two ounces of water on 9-8-94. Drank it leisurely in about thirty minutes, then drank nine ounces of water. The usual immediate effects ensued —dynamic rectification.

Began rotating the inner circulation; the pulse and focus was unusually strong. The quintessence expanded my chi on the first revolution; a warm feeling infused the chi field — the field pervades the body and is concentrated in the cerebro-spinal system. By the third rotation the field was whirling beyond my body on the inhalation. With eyes closed the field had the body (feeling) of luminous light gray warmth with the perceived density of smoke. With eyes open the field could not be seen but could be felt. An occasional colorful ray fragment popped into the visual field during this operation.

It was easier than ever to keep the field focused. The usual perceptive displacement caused by objective observation did not collapse the field as it ordinarily does, instead field focus was merely diminished and easily restored. On the exhalation the chi field changed colors to red and yellow dragon paisleys rising like warm steam traveling up my torso to my head. The tendrils of the field that had extended past my body were sucked back into the dragon paisley surge traveling upward.

When this volatile warmth ascended to my head four fields opened surrounding my brain. I felt them pulsating and rotating each about its own axis. The lowest field was at the base of my skull with axis perpendicular to the spine. Another field axis ran parallel to each hemisphere of my brain; these two fields were above the first field. The axis of the highest field ran parallel to my forehead. I was able to expand the fields singularly or together. Manipulation of these fields was accompanied by sensations at locations in the brain and cranial musculature near the axis for the field.

The energy of the inner circulating quintessence and chi was very responsive my navigational input. I directed it where it wanted to go. The four fields extended out and down; an area noticeably void was created at the top of my skull. I could feel the void potential. Inhalation and exhalation continued to rotate the surging quintessence. The upward streaming dragon continued fueling the expanding fields. The potential at the void above the top of my head reached critical. A shaft with a spear-shaped head rose from the void. Then the luminous gray whirling smoke of the inhalation rose through the shaft and while spinning stretched out into a black and white ray extending out into the universe. The ray was wide and a tunnel was in the center. I did not wish to navigate the tunnel; discovery of the four brain fields and the generation of the void was enough for one navigation session with the elixir.

9-11-94:
The preceding experience took place within an hour after the first sip of the elixir double. Though I chose not to travel the ray, Gnosis flooded my consciousness after the ray from the void (generated between the four brain fields) projected into the center of the universe. I could see the origin of the Universe and the Youniverse and the flow of Entropy through the One.

Besides the four brain fields that generated the void-ray, I felt a pulse focus at the center of my forehead during the vision-gnosis. It mattered not whether my eyes were open or closed the visionary input continued. With eyes open I could see my physical surroundings and an occasional scintillation plus the visionary gnosis illuminating my mind. The visionary effects lasted less than an hour; the gnosis continues. At that time the output of the four fields had diminished. As a result of being able to feel the four fields I am now able to feel parts of my brain that were touched by the fields. The brain fields are now an active part of my chi field. The effects planed-out within the next hour while I was writing the revelation as a myth.

lwowl

Ezalor
11-30-2012, 08:58 PM
the 'immortals' remind me of forming an immortal child in taoist alchemy.
Actually, I suspect you hit the nail with that.

There are a few different "ultimate goals" depending on that given spiritual path. The two most common are "dissolution" and immortality. Dissolution means returning to "The One", also called Nirvana or Moksha. Most ways of Hindiusm and Buddhism seek this goal. However, as far as I can see, the goal of Taoism is actually immortality, rather than dissolution. The priestess who I quoted the description of immortals from agrees with that.

The Tao te King by Laotze is actually describing Immortals in many parts.


I like your creation Myth a lot. Would you write a little on the initiation source of your revelations?
Those are actually my memories. As I progress, I remember more and more. Sometimes these memories come back slowly, by little pieces, but every time I have a strong spiritual experience, usually I get back a high amount all at once. This is a direct connection to my true self, which as of yet is still weak, but permanent, and some spiritual experiences temporarily strengthen it so I can, as I used to say "call down" a lot of things.

These special experiences are usually tied to self realizations: when I understand something important about myself, suddenly I get under the effect of this "Eureka moment" and many things become clear.

I use a few different methods to intentionally get past the barrier, including meditation and sexuality.


I had two really great initiatory experiences in the last few years:

One was a serious illness (and you should know that otherwise I'm kind of immune to generic illnesses, I can walk around sick people, drink from the same glass, whatever, and never catching it. So if I ever get ill, that happens with a reason.). I had a very huge abscess formed in my throat in a few days. When I was finally laid on the operating table, I could already hardly breath, and probably a few hours more and I'm done if they don't cut me up.

They day before I had a very bad fever which caused me about a dozen or more visions that are very hard, or rather impossible to describe using words. Let just say, that I took on the universal principle of Harmony, and the illness tearing me apart was realized as the universal principle of Disorder. And we, this two forces fought battle after battle. During them, I experienced myself as eternal, as a whole Universe, with all it's little parts and everything in it at once. After many hours of fighting, I finally overcame it and established order and harmony in the eternal Universe I was in there. When it all ended, my fever and all suffering gone, I felt completely normal and OK, just like I was healthy, except that I still had to have the abscess removed, but other than that, I was alright. My physical state kind of contradicted the fact that I have that huge abscess in there.

The other deep experience was one and a half month in the Indian/Tibetan Himalayas, including a seven days walk through the mountains, during which I had numerous spiritual experiences, even a few I would call "miracles".

And I also had other experiences in the past.

Pleroma
11-30-2012, 09:24 PM
to create an idealistic utopia, which in fact, hurts the balance just as much as the other side.

Is this even true? how the hell can creating a utopia hurt anything? good is good, and evil just destroys, brings death...wow.
strange idea you have...

Ezalor
11-30-2012, 09:47 PM
Is this even true? how the hell can creating a utopia hurt anything? good is good, and evil just destroys, brings death...wow.
strange idea you have...
Good and Evil do not really exist. They are illusions, and they are relative. Something that is good for me, might not be good for you.

Suffering, death and so on are necessary for many reasons. First, because there are many things you can only learn through suffering. Also, the opposites are creating and defining each other.

If you never feel pain, how you know what is pleasure?
If you are never hungry, how you understand the value of having a full stomach?
If you are never sad, how you understand what is happiness?

Moreover, if you only have "good" things, you forget how valuable they are. You start taking it naturally, like it was not a gift, but rather a right.

Pleroma
11-30-2012, 11:22 PM
Good and Evil do not really exist. They are illusions, and they are relative. Something that is good for me, might not be good for you.

Suffering, death and so on are necessary for many reasons. First, because there are many things you can only learn through suffering. Also, the opposites are creating and defining each other.

If you never feel pain, how you know what is pleasure?
If you are never hungry, how you understand the value of having a full stomach?
If you are never sad, how you understand what is happiness?

Moreover, if you only have "good" things, you forget how valuable they are. You start taking it naturally, like it was not a gift, but rather a right.

good and evil do exist. evil is illusion because it teaches something that is not true.
what can there possibly be that is good for you that is not for me???
unless you mean "art is in the eye of the beholder". but other than that everything good as in food, friends, wisdom, love makes everyone happy.

we dont need to suffer forever...if someone learned their lesson and understands suffering why would they need to experience the same thing again?

III
12-01-2012, 01:07 AM
good and evil do exist. evil is illusion because it teaches something that is not true.

what can there possibly be that is good for you that is not for me???
unless you mean "art is in the eye of the beholder". but other than that everything good as in food, friends, wisdom, love makes everyone happy.

we dont need to suffer forever...if someone learned their lesson and understands suffering why would they need to experience the same thing again?

Hi Pleroma,


"art is in the eye of the beholder". but other than that everything good as in food, friends, wisdom, love makes everyone happy.

So food, friends wisdom and love are not art?

And while for you the pickles may make the burger, for me they make me gag. Good food, good friends how love is used are all art and may not be appreciated the same by all. Otherwise ALL the retaurants would be Taco Bell. And your good friend or favorite wife probably wouldn't be mine, and that is equally true for everyone likely reading this.

The qualities that make a good friend or good food or good love may vary by the perceiver and would not make "everybody happy". Would you like to play musical chairs in a restaurant just before your meal comes and haver everybody sitting in sombody elses chair and essentially random companions and random dinner and spmebody else's bill? Would anybody be happy all the way around?

Ezalor
12-01-2012, 01:59 AM
evil is illusion because it teaches something that is not true.
You confuse the concepts of good and evil with true and false. Some people teach false thing out of love, because they don't know they are wrong. While just becouse someone is evil, they can indeed say true things.


what can there possibly be that is good for you that is not for me???
Let's say we are in the forest, and getting attacked y a pack of wolves. The one of us who runs faster than the other survives. Now, if I am the faster, it is good for me, but pretty bad for you. And vice versa. Good and evil is relative. And III gave a good explanation of that as well.

However, unlike good and evil, right and wrong are absolute. Just, exactly because if that, it is exponentially harder to find out what is truly right and wrong, than labeling something good or evil. To find out right and wrong, you need an absolute reference point - that is, an absolute truth. While to divide something into relative oppositions, you can just chose any random point as your reference.


we dont need to suffer forever...if someone learned their lesson and understands suffering why would they need to experience the same thing again?
Nobody said anything like that. What I said, is that there are always others who still need to learn the painful lessons. And also, that it is nature's rule, that light must always cast a shadow. that s how balance is maintained.

And when someone is in the downward half of the circle, what is actually helping them are the "bad" things, that draw them downwards into mater. Why? Because ONLY when you reach the bottom, can you finally start your journey back up. So the faster you get down, the sooner you can start going up.

It is like being thrown in a lake with a stone tied to your leg - while the stone pulls, the ropes are tight, only once the stone hits the bottom, will the ropes ease up so that you can free yourself and start swimming up.

Andro
12-01-2012, 03:13 AM
right and wrong are absolute.

Only in the sense that they are 'both' none and the same :)


To find out right and wrong, you need an absolute reference point - that is, an absolute truth.

The 'absolute truth' is equally the 'ultimate lie'. Like Infinity/Creation 'lying' to itself that it's 'true' (or 'real', for that matter...), just to keep itself going (considering the alternative...)

That's what happens when things are taken to 'absolute' values.

Distinct 'values' (such as right/wrong, etc...) get lost in the process of absolutization, where they become none and the same :)

If you take 'absolute' and add a specification to it (i.e. a value such as 'right', 'truth' etc...), then it ain't 'absolute' no more...

And if you still insist on using 'absolute' values, then at least call them 'subjectively absolute'... LOL :)

Now, on the topic of the history of the universe... Some of what Ezalor is conveying, I have seen myself.
Some other things I have seen in a completely different way... And some other things I haven't seen at all...

Am I the one who's 'seen' right? Most certainly :)

Is Ezalor wrong? Most definitely not!

Is Creation/Infinity/The Universe absolute? Does Infinity itself have a point of reference?
Is Balance the 'ultimate' goal? Or is there a 'hidden' goal, lurking in the shadows of the UN-Knowable?

But please, don't mind my rambling...

(Although I am of course 'right' in my own eyes, but the beauty of it is that I have no need for anyone else to be 'wrong' in order for me to be 'right' :))

For those who understand me, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand me, no explanation is possible.

Now, please excuse me while I go revel in my absolutely objective subjectivity :)

(Or my objectively absolute subjectivity... or my subjectively absolute objectivity... or my.......)

✂---------------Ex---------------Ćther--------------Ra-------------->☻

solomon levi
12-02-2012, 03:13 PM
There are so many possibilities. I've seen what seems like a lot to myself, but I don't
ever expect to see an Absolute. What I have seen has undone any belief in absolutes.

Let's say there is some akashic records of everything past, present and future. And maybe
akasha is just one level of many. But even in akasha there is so much to see and when you
are seeing it seems true/real because you are there first hand. For example, just a couple
days ago I "remembered" all kinds of stuff related to the Montauk Project and Philadelphia
experiment. I was seeing it from the "akashic records" which are planetary or universal
memories, depending on what level you tap into. But it was so real, it seemed like my own
memory and true exeriences. So I had to think if I was ever in New York... I was there with
a girlfriend a month before 9/11, in NYC for a few days. The only other time I visited upper
state NY Niagara Falls as a teen with my family. So I've never been to Montauk as far as i know.
But then Niagara Falls must create a vortex... and Montauk and Philadelphia experiments were
also about vortexes... so how do I know? :)
The reasonable conclusion is that I saw the akashic records. But I could write a book as if i was
actually there. In fact, I wondered if that is what the people who have written about it have done.
No different than all those people who wrote as if they were Hermes or whoever.
It's all true. Any magician knows this. For something not to be true is equivalent to saying magic
does not exist ever.

For me, what I have seen and know, there is no right and wrong, good or bad, or even relative and
absolute or enlightened and unenlightened. These are all projections of thought, which is magic.
Anyone can experience them, as I have and most every does, even though they don't exist.

The only constant is change.
Someone should add, the only certainty is uncertainty.

Always when speaking I speak relatively and subjectively.
There are more and less subjective states... there is always the bigger picture;
but I've never seen anything to suggest an absolute objective state.
If it exists, it is Unknowable for there could be no other to witness it.
The Oneness which I see I would not call Absolute.
It really depends on the definition and what that means to people.
It is a fluid everchanging flux of perfection... not a fixed perfection which I would
associate with the word Absolute. I don't know - never had much use for that word.

Oh - so what I wanted to point out about akashic records and reality and "where is here?"...
There is no absolute because we are still "here".
In other words, it's not over 'til it's over.
Ideas of the absolute are simply that - ideas, thoughts, fantasies, imaginings, projections...
And what we see is as big a picture as we are able to see at any given moment...
there is always more to see of this holographic fractal Ouroboros.
Only the mind/ego which was born and dies projects birth and death onto the Youniverse.

I can tell you from my own experience that when I get close to the All, there is no possibility
of me imagining or seeing right, wrong, good, bad, relative, absolute, etc. There is no
mind/ego in wholeness to compare things to other things or even think that way.
There is no Other in Wholeness... no voice, no comparison, no dualism, no absolutism...

Ilos
12-02-2012, 04:52 PM
I like to believe that Space that would probably be most explainable with words; nothingness and endless.
Our brain in a way it cannot understand how can something have no end and I think that that is only because we only try to compare Space with things and feelings that we experience.
When I think of an endless space its gotta be equal to nothingness to, so basically if something has no end it cant be a something.
Ok so the question is; how was something created in a nothingness? If nothingness can be endless than something could be always.
nothingness = endless
something = always
What I mean with, Something I mean the energy, or the light that was always into darkness (nothingness)
Like two words that give meaning to something its the same when nothingness and something (darkness and light) gave birth to the first matter
If you ask me well how did those two gave birth to the first matter? Well I could only answer; well how is wind created or how is fire created by only rubbing two peaces of wood.
Ok so nvm somehow the matter gave birth to others.. and it rained onto another thing, etc. This continued from fire to watter from watter to earth from earth to wind.
So on various combinations combination gave birth rocks, plants, etc.. and in the end us Humans with the ability to create and transform, judge and progress.
I think theres an important question which it would be left here is: if the light and darkness have been always there, how can you determine or how or when did they decide to give birth to their first matter.
My answer would be; first matter = timeless.

Anyway this is just something I believe so my brain wont explode from trying to think allot, I'm sure its alot much into it, more than our human mind can concept or imagine.

Pleroma
12-02-2012, 11:49 PM
hi 1wow1,


9-10-94:
Took about one ounce of elixir in two ounces of water on 9-8-94. Drank it leisurely in about thirty minutes, then drank nine ounces of water. The usual immediate effects ensued —dynamic rectification.

im just wondering how did you take an ounce of elixir without it being mortal?
what kind of elixir was it? from the PS?

lwowl
12-03-2012, 04:47 PM
hi 1wow1,



im just wondering how did you take an ounce of elixir without it being mortal?
what kind of elixir was it? from the PS?

Hello Pleroma,

The elixir I took is not toxic. It was made from a very ancient herb utilized by alchemists for many centuries. It was a liquid made with Spiritus Vini spagyrically prepared by Prof. Moonbeam when my lab was outside in the forest. This Ti Ma elixir was spagyrically made not alchemically: the poisonous blood of the Toad was burned to ashes in the purification process. I didn’t know that back then. I didn’t even know about the Toad’s Blood at all. Purify that blood without destroying it and the operation becomes alchemical. Isolating and purifying the blood of the Toad is dangerously toxic.

During that time many people were given “samples” of the elixir. It is a quite remarkable medicine when taken in small (10ml in an ounce of mineral water) doses. Many seriously ill people have benefited from it. I’m the only one that has used it alchemically, and the immortal fetus we all carry was born in me with that Cosmic initiation. Other psychonaught associates compared the effects of one dose to the smoothest mellowest acid trip only far more controllable. That is, one can fine tune the energy without distortions. With it I could travel Indra’s Web and beheld the comings and goings of All and my place (destiny) in the Whorld orbits.

Decades before this I had consulted the I Ching about my Fate and Destiny. My destiny was “Fellowship with Man” for “Gradual Progress;” Success. At the time I took the elixir we were in the middle of making great change for “Gradual Progress” in the “Fellowship of Man.” Two years later we succeeded and the most powerful government on Earth came after us. I was thrown into the Dark Tower. While in there I watched them round up my friends on the TV news. We were the most effective agents of change and they took us down in retaliation, but they could not undo what we had done. We put the “tack on the track that stopped the meat plow.”

My Fate was “Missing the Return” from a short distance; “No Blame.” I had no idea what that meant when the Oracle told me in 1975. When I took the elixir that day in 1994 I realized I my Fate was to miss the return to the Cosmic Egg. My “station” (orbit) is a short distance from the surface of the Cosmic Egg in the outer Gray Area Dimension. There are 12 dimensions to the Universe. The first GAD is the fifth dimension in from the Macrocosm: Space/Time comprises the outer four dimensions of the Macrocosm. Then comes the first GAD: a buffer between the Macrocosm and the Microcosm. Then comes the four dimensions of the Microcosm: Un-Space/Time: Eternity. Then one finds the second GAD, a buffer between the Microcosmic Egg and pure Information Systems: Chaos and Cosmos. At the Point in the Center is the Kore where the insatiable desire of Entropy is fulfilled by Nothingness giving birth to Nature.

I hope I did not Babylon too long.:)

lwowl

Ezalor
12-04-2012, 12:08 AM
In my rendering, an absolute truth is something true from the "view point of the absolute". The absolute is actually the Universe or reality itself. So in other words, there is only one absolute truth which is the whole Reality. So there is no absolute truth a being could ever learn, because only the absolute (The One) can know it it.

My intention was not really to suggest that we should look for absolute things, but rather, that in my rendering right and wrong are not relative because they are based on the whole of Creation. In one hand, I agree with you in that if we look at thr whole, there are no qualities, it is just everything and nothing.

However, there is Creation, as a process, which I would also call "The nature of the Universe". And what I call right, is what complies with the nature of the Universe. To take an example: Love is right because it complies with Creation (moreover, it is the instrument of Creation). While Hate is wrong because it opposes Creation. Now if we say that no matter how we define right and wrong, we need to have a concept of them, because we do what we consider right and avoid what we consider wrong, I guess most would agree that Love is probably right and Hate is probably wrong.

Can I imagine a world without suffering as a working thing? Not really. But can I imagine a world without Hate? Yes, I can. Actually, I've seen words like that. No, they are not without suffering, they are not without darkness, etc. but without hate.


Either way, no one of us can be perfect so neither will any idea, description or concept we set up be perfect. ;)
Ideas of the absolute are simply that - ideas, thoughts, fantasies, imaginings, projections...
And what we see is as big a picture as we are able to see at any given moment...Agreed.

solomon levi
12-04-2012, 10:11 AM
Well, I don't want to argue unless you find our conversation mutual and interesting.
I don't see creation as a process being the nature of the universe.
The nature of anything changes according to the observer.
For ex, for some people the nature of the universe is dual, because they are dual.
The Universe doesn't have a nature save what we/consciousness give it or project on to it.
The universe is unconditioned. The conditioned observer conditions the nature of the universe.

The universe is consciousness. There is nothing that doesn't comply with consciousness or
the universe or infinity. Compliance indicates rules, guidelines, alignment... Obviously unconditioned
freedom (i.e. infinity, the universe) has none of these.
Right and wrong are not universal.
And to measure them by creation alone ignores that the universe is also preservation and destruction.
When you talk about creation, especially as a process, you are speaking only of a fraction of the universe.
Hate is simply a different flavor of creativity than love.
And the universe isn't dual just because you think/see that way.
Your subjective experience of the universe is.

Love, as the creative force of the universe, is not polar to hate or anything; it isn't polar at all.
Polar love is a human invention and not very creative at all - it is reactive.
The creative aspect of any polarity is the neutral center which is void of charge.
That is more accurately love. Love is unconditioned.

Avoiding wrong, or avoiding anything, is not the way.
Fracturing reality is not the way.
The universe is ALL, not part.

III
12-06-2012, 02:45 AM
Well, I don't want to argue unless you find our conversation mutual and interesting.
I don't see creation as a process being the nature of the universe.
The nature of anything changes according to the observer.
For ex, for some people the nature of the universe is dual, because they are dual.
The Universe doesn't have a nature save what we/consciousness give it or project on to it.
The universe is unconditioned. The conditioned observer conditions the nature of the universe.

The universe is consciousness. There is nothing that doesn't comply with consciousness or
the universe or infinity. Compliance indicates rules, guidelines, alignment... Obviously unconditioned
freedom (i.e. infinity, the universe) has none of these.
Right and wrong are not universal.
And to measure them by creation alone ignores that the universe is also preservation and destruction.
When you talk about creation, especially as a process, you are speaking only of a fraction of the universe.
Hate is simply a different flavor of creativity than love.
And the universe isn't dual just because you think/see that way.
Your subjective experience of the universe is.

Love, as the creative force of the universe, is not polar to hate or anything; it isn't polar at all.
Polar love is a human invention and not very creative at all - it is reactive.
The creative aspect of any polarity is the neutral center which is void of charge.
That is more accurately love. Love is unconditioned.

Avoiding wrong, or avoiding anything, is not the way.
Fracturing reality is not the way.
The universe is ALL, not part.

Hi Solomon,

I'm having a little trouble here. What is the "universe"? Normally the "universe" is people talking of the sum total of the red-shift, galaxies, stras, gas, dust and everything we can see. As that is all illusion in the creation, maybe the dark matter and dark energy are the only part of the universe that we can detect despite the holodeck nature of creation. So then, we are back to the "ether"? of 100+ years ago?

One might presume that at some level of things the "universe" contains the creation? Are we talking about bubbles of creation in the quantum foam? What is this hypothetical universe? Is there anything at all that isn't part of creation at some level? So while we are down-nested at least 2 speed of light compression levels from some very primative almost slime-mold level of consciousness type something or other, that is hard to picture as the "universe" as it is usually talked about by people that can conceive of a creation of the type we appear to live in.

solomon levi
12-06-2012, 08:08 PM
Hi III. :)

It sounds like you're talking about the physical universe.
Physicality is only one aspect of the universe. Yes, the universe contains creation.
I think the origins of the word are philosophical, not scientific.
I agree with this definition:

universe (n.)
1580s, "the whole world, cosmos," from O.Fr. univers (12c.), from L. universum "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. universus "all together," lit. "turned into one," from unus "one" (see one) + versus, pp. of vertere "to turn" (see versus). Properly a loan-translation of Gk. to holon "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. holos "whole"

So the universe/Youniverse is the whole, the All, everything and every no thing.
So it is also Infinity since nothing can be outside of it. Some call it God.
Everything, every state of energy or consciousness or matter, happens within the universe.
The universe, which is a whole and excludes nothing, is also the awareness of that wholeness/Oneness.
What I mean by that is, the universe as a whole, not a bunch of parts, is aware and dreaming - it is
a being just like you and me, or the planet, or a photon, etc. Shamans call the universe's dream "Intent".
It's difficult to talk about, because it's hard to imagine the perspective of the whole universe. As you said
elsewhere, people have difficulty remembering their past lives. Well, the universe is the life of everything,
micro to macro, as One - not billions and billions and billions of parts. It is awareness of the whole and the
parts and all possible combinations and permutations that could ever be conceived. That is, it's not just the
perspective of Oneness, but it is all possible perspectives at once AND spread through time as separateness.

That is my experience of the universe.

III
12-07-2012, 12:49 AM
Hi III. :)

It sounds like you're talking about the physical universe.
Physicality is only one aspect of the universe. Yes, the universe contains creation.
I think the origins of the word are philosophical, not scientific.
I agree with this definition:

universe (n.)
1580s, "the whole world, cosmos," from O.Fr. univers (12c.), from L. universum "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. universus "all together," lit. "turned into one," from unus "one" (see one) + versus, pp. of vertere "to turn" (see versus). Properly a loan-translation of Gk. to holon "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. holos "whole"

So the universe/Youniverse is the whole, the All, everything and every no thing.
So it is also Infinity since nothing can be outside of it. Some call it God.
Everything, every state of energy or consciousness or matter, happens within the universe.
The universe, which is a whole and excludes nothing, is also the awareness of that wholeness/Oneness.
What I mean by that is, the universe as a whole, not a bunch of parts, is aware and dreaming - it is
a being just like you and me, or the planet, or a photon, etc. Shamans call the universe's dream "Intent".
It's difficult to talk about, because it's hard to imagine the perspective of the whole universe. As you said
elsewhere, people have difficulty remembering their past lives. Well, the universe is the life of everything,
micro to macro, as One - not billions and billions and billions of parts. It is awareness of the whole and the
parts and all possible combinations and permutations that could ever be conceived. That is, it's not just the
perspective of Oneness, but it is all possible perspectives at once AND spread through time as separateness.


Hi Solomon,

As the creation, all and everything, is the same as the Universe? The universe is a donut around the whole of the creation but is not that and contains other creations? Other Absolutes? Each in it's own place in the qunatum foam? Creations and "subcreations" or merely levels of creations and hence all ONE. How can you go to experience that universe that is not part of creation?

solomon levi
12-07-2012, 08:08 AM
[SIZE=4]Hi Solomon,

As the creation, all and everything, is the same as the Universe? The universe is a donut around the whole of the creation but is not that and contains other creations? Other Absolutes? Each in it's own place in the qunatum foam? Creations and "subcreations" or merely levels of creations and hence all ONE. How can you go to experience that universe that is not part of creation?


Universe is just universe. Created universe is created universe. These two are not the same entity.
Everything and every no thing... Whatever you can say, whatever item or absolute... it is part of the One/Whole
which excludes nothing. If the UNIverse is not one whole including all actual and potential and possible, then
they have misnamed it. I take the name literally, which is as objective as I can be without relying on some other
authority to tell me what it means. So it means One, and the only One I have ever seen is the All-Whole excluding
nothing Infinite One. If you divide it or talk about parts or divisions, or the universe existing as one universe of many
or whatever, you have stopped describing the UNIverse and should call it something else.

I experience that which is not part of creation with the uncreated Self that I am. Only part of me/the All exists as a created being.
I am the universe/Youniverse. What else could I be? What else is there? What can possibly exist outside and independant of
the One? Nothing. And everything existing IN the One exists AS the One. There simply is no other way to exist. But we can
psychologically imagine there are other ways and identify with those imaginings, even though they have no actual reality.
That is called ego, self-reflection, identification.
The ego has no real existence save as a thought-form, a series of independant memories which we re-member as a linear
consistent "I". But anyone who takes the time to look can see that there is no consistency to this "I", nor linearity to time.
It is actually the (quantum, if you will) flux, always new and spontaneously manifesting. Just as thoughts arise and pass,
so too is the ego thought/identity. Only in the first attention/known we keep recycling or resurrecting the known/past/memory -
beating a dead horse. That is fixation of attention, or attachment/identification with thought-forms.

So the universe is a constant flux of emanations as creation-preservation-destruction... The ego is an eddy/whirlpool in this
stream of infinity/Ouroboros. It is a hermetically sealed flask - the glass being pinched closed at the top. This "pinching"
is the folding of space-time as a dimension within the Universe. This folding has happened many times... folding upon folding -
seven circulations/eagles, if you will. But each of the seven has an octave of another seven within it and without it, repetitively,
so that it is a fractal-hologram, i.e, Ouroboros where the head/infinite fast bites the tail/infinite slow; infinite fast and infinite
slow are the same!
As an identity, we only experience a small portion of the Whole/Universe/Ouroboros. Since we can't talk about infinity, we have
to talk about sevens (or some number). So there are seven levels, and seven sub-levels in each level, and so on infinity in both
directions (and more than two directions). So to define ourselves we have to look at the level/sub-level/sub-sub-level/super-level...
whatever, and the one before it and the one to come after it. Man is defined by heaven/the plane-level above and earth/the plane-level
below. Fibonacci is one such series, but we also see it in cell division: 1 divides into 2, 2 into 4, 4 into 8, etc...
All these different series make up different emanations of the One. "And as all things have arisen from the one by the mediation of one:
so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation." - emerald tablet

So we could start with 7 chakras and orient from there, or 7 planets or whatever. Then if we met in, say, venus/throat chakra, we could then
do "analysis"/separation/division into seven further stages of venus to pinpoint our "location" even more.
An archetype is the inherent seed that is the common thread from level to level to level to sub-level, etc.
It is the frequency signature experienced in octaves/echos/overtones/harmonics...

Is that enough info? Can you locate me yet? :)

III
12-11-2012, 08:18 PM
Universe is just universe. Created universe is created universe. These two are not the same entity.
Everything and every no thing... Whatever you can say, whatever item or absolute... it is part of the One/Whole
which excludes nothing. If the UNIverse is not one whole including all actual and potential and possible, then
they have misnamed it. I take the name literally, which is as objective as I can be without relying on some other
authority to tell me what it means. So it means One, and the only One I have ever seen is the All-Whole excluding
nothing Infinite One. If you divide it or talk about parts or divisions, or the universe existing as one universe of many
or whatever, you have stopped describing the UNIverse and should call it something else.

I experience that which is not part of creation with the uncreated Self that I am. Only part of me/the All exists as a created being.
I am the universe/Youniverse. What else could I be? What else is there? What can possibly exist outside and independant of
the One? Nothing. And everything existing IN the One exists AS the One. There simply is no other way to exist. But we can
psychologically imagine there are other ways and identify with those imaginings, even though they have no actual reality.
That is called ego, self-reflection, identification.
The ego has no real existence save as a thought-form, a series of independant memories which we re-member as a linear
consistent "I". But anyone who takes the time to look can see that there is no consistency to this "I", nor linearity to time.
It is actually the (quantum, if you will) flux, always new and spontaneously manifesting. Just as thoughts arise and pass,
so too is the ego thought/identity. Only in the first attention/known we keep recycling or resurrecting the known/past/memory -
beating a dead horse. That is fixation of attention, or attachment/identification with thought-forms.

So the universe is a constant flux of emanations as creation-preservation-destruction... The ego is an eddy/whirlpool in this
stream of infinity/Ouroboros. It is a hermetically sealed flask - the glass being pinched closed at the top. This "pinching"
is the folding of space-time as a dimension within the Universe. This folding has happened many times... folding upon folding -
seven circulations/eagles, if you will. But each of the seven has an octave of another seven within it and without it, repetitively,
so that it is a fractal-hologram, i.e, Ouroboros where the head/infinite fast bites the tail/infinite slow; infinite fast and infinite
slow are the same!
As an identity, we only experience a small portion of the Whole/Universe/Ouroboros. Since we can't talk about infinity, we have
to talk about sevens (or some number). So there are seven levels, and seven sub-levels in each level, and so on infinity in both
directions (and more than two directions). So to define ourselves we have to look at the level/sub-level/sub-sub-level/super-level...
whatever, and the one before it and the one to come after it. Man is defined by heaven/the plane-level above and earth/the plane-level
below. Fibonacci is one such series, but we also see it in cell division: 1 divides into 2, 2 into 4, 4 into 8, etc...
All these different series make up different emanations of the One. "And as all things have arisen from the one by the mediation of one:
so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation." - emerald tablet

So we could start with 7 chakras and orient from there, or 7 planets or whatever. Then if we met in, say, venus/throat chakra, we could then
do "analysis"/separation/division into seven further stages of venus to pinpoint our "location" even more.
An archetype is the inherent seed that is the common thread from level to level to level to sub-level, etc.
It is the frequency signature experienced in octaves/echos/overtones/harmonics...

Is that enough info? Can you locate me yet? :)

Hi Solomon,

We shall see. Let me try to say my understanding. First what most people call the physical universe is what we see inside the creation, all those planets and galaxies and black holes etc. So that isn't what you mean by universe. So from what I see then there is the creation which is all the manifest created existance none of which has an "objective" existance. Then there is the unmanifest, the void perhaps(?), the not created and not perceivable that constitues the universe that is objective and also contains the unobjective creation.

That would appear to imply that our consciousness has no possible objective existance either so were are just making it all up, including ourselves, as we go along and it is all a fantasy within a fantasy within a fantasy? Is that about it?


Am I even close?


Taking it only that far

solomon levi
12-11-2012, 10:35 PM
Hi Solomon,

We shall see. Let me try to say my understanding. First what most people call the physical universe is what we see inside the creation, all those planets and galaxies and black holes etc. So that isn't what you mean by universe. So from what I see then there is the creation which is all the manifest created existance none of which has an "objective" existance. Then there is the unmanifest, the void perhaps(?), the not created and not perceivable that constitues the universe that is objective and also contains the unobjective creation.

That would appear to imply that our consciousness has no possible objective existance either so were are just making it all up, including ourselves, as we go along and it is all a fantasy within a fantasy within a fantasy? Is that about it?


Am I even close?


Taking it only that far


The first paragraph is correct as i see it. See the thread on subjectivity objectivity
where I found the Pythagorean definition of One or Monad as Universe, indivisible, etc.
For Pythagoreans One is not technically a number even, for the reasons i stated.

It's difficult to say what we can experience ourselves as. I don't think/see that we can experience ourselves as the void.
If you could, there would be no one separate to be the experiencer - that is why it is unconscious - because it is
analogically itself. When the void became self-aware, consciousness was created, and that is usually what we consider
our beginning, and the void is our source. We, consciousness, are the only begotten son of the void/source/unconscious.
So as far as we, consciousness, are concerned, consciousness is our objectivity. But consciousness is then lowered into
density through 7 levels. So the least dense is the most objective. The "further"/denser we get from the source (this is a linear
way of describing it of course) the more subjective we become. The lowest three planes/levels/chakras compose the ego
and what the average "unawakened" human works with. These are (from most dense to least) hertzian, infrared and visible light.
Cosmic rays are what you would call Christ consciousness.

hertzian/radio, infrared, visible, uv, x-ray, gamma, cosmic - void
most dense............................................. .......most subtle - void
slow freq/large amplitude...............fast freq/small amp - void

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRtXACDT48Ht6VNgkdxaEb3RSBmWPmQ vhSzoRbLoBgFkk54IPP

Most charts don't show cosmic rays. Hertzian = radio in this system.
Microwave is part of infrared in this system. Sorry, those are the terms we learned in Ramtha school.
They probably need updating.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQskg2dUYGDu_fpt3i3PczxFOzOJFM5c LOiTQkdM5PVWOB7Oqk1

http://ds9.ssl.berkeley.edu/LWS_gems/2/images_2/ems510.jpg