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View Full Version : Sin; its Origin (in Man,) Attributes/Nature, and Purpose



LostGnosticOccultum
11-30-2012, 03:36 PM
Ok so just 10 minutes ago I finished a debate with my father on (what started as the existence of aliens; I'm pro he's con) sin and it's effects on the universe, man kind and aliens lol that last one sounds random right? Lol

So we were sitting on the couch send one of my favorite television shows, Ancient Aliens, came on. My dad made a comment that went something like this, "why would aliens come to earth and not take over the world, why would they not inhabit it or take our resources. Aliens can't possibly exist or if so could not possibly have come here as they would take over. They wouldn't just come billions of lightyears just to visit US and say hi then head home."

I made the comment on the theory that aliens are scientists, the ones that would come here, like the humans on the movie Prometheus

Which he responded, that doesn't make since why go through all the trouble of coming to earth if there is no benefit for them?

I said something along the lines of they're doing what we are, looking for proof of life Obama other planets. He said that this was still ridiculous and that usnt a good enough reason......

*I'm sorry that this isn't that is sounded look at first. I'm not sure from here how we got to sin but we did lol. Frown here we talk about that though.*

My father and I agreed that sin existed because of man's disobedience of GOD however that is where our views part.

My stance is that all man is subject to sin because the root of man, the first man and woman sinned. Now let's say the first man and woman did not sin and had had 10 generations of children which did not sin and come the 11th generation 1 child ate from the tree of knowledge. This would be the first sin. 11 generations later. Now his predecessors would not be subject to the power of sin as they have not sinned, however this individual who has sinned and his descendents would be subject to sin.

My father disagrees, he believes that "sin interred the world" (which it did) and all before and after would have been subject to sin.

I think he misinterpreted the phrase "sin entered the world." This phrase means "sin came into existence."

LostGnosticOccultum
11-30-2012, 03:40 PM
Not "sin entered man." Sin entered man because the first man, the father of man sinned.

My father disagrees with this. He believes that sin is like a contact disease and not a genetic disease. Like if I have sinned and touch you that automatically means you will sin, but that is not the case. All man sins because we all descended from someone who has sinned.

LostGnosticOccultum
11-30-2012, 03:46 PM
What are your thoughts on this topic?
Oh and I'm not sure if this is

GOD Bless, LGO

Oh and I'm not sure if I put this in the right place, if a mod feels like it should be somewhere else please move it lol thanks :)

Bel Matina
11-30-2012, 06:10 PM
Paracelsus wrote a lovely little tract on repentance. Unfortunately, I lent it out to someone who never returned it, and I can't seem to track it down for free on the internet. It's a shame, I was really looking forward to finding the time to read his exegesis on the prophesies of Daniel.

Anyway here it is on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophia-Mystica-Prophecies-Prophet-Paracelsus/dp/0969382006/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354298993&sr=8-1&keywords=paracelsus+prophesies

solomon levi
11-30-2012, 06:33 PM
Hi!
1. Why would it be effort for aliens? I don't see it that way.
It's not like they travel with gas or for hundreds of years.
Bending space-time is effortless.

Sin - I'll have to adress that when I have more time. :)

solomon levi
12-11-2012, 11:36 AM
Ok. Sin.
So I don't really agree with the idea of sin as it is generally accepted.
Reading Gurdjieff many years ago taught me a new definition, which is actually
the etymological definition. Sin, hamartia, means "to miss the mark", such as
in archery. This, then, is related to "aim". The problem with sin is when we try to
apply it to others assuming what their aim should be and say they have sinned.
My life has showed me that no one ever misses their aim, but people are often
unaware of what they are aiming at, or what aims. Thoughts aim, emotions aim,
but intent is the strongest aim that wins out over the others. And your "average"
person is aware of their thinking, their wanting and wishing, but not aware of their intent.
Intent never misses the target. Desires miss quite often. People identifying with their
desires "sin" all the time.
"I want a million dollars"
Do I have it? Nope. I missed the mark.
Do I have want? Yes! Intent hit the mark.
The intent of wanting a million dollars is that you don't have it - that's the reality/intent.
"But certainly God knows what I meant."
God only knows what you know. You are God.
If what you know is want, the Universe reflects that.
Of course, reflection isn't accurate. You are the Youniverse - there's no separation.

But to address your topic more directly...
wow. I really don't agree with the Biblical version of disobedience to God.
For me it needs some serious translating or redefining.
God doesn't have a plan for us, so we can't be disobedient to God.
God, for me, is unconditioned. How can we be disobedient to the Unconditioned?
Obedience implies conditions.
Of course, the god of the Old Testament is not unconditional at all unless we
read it with certain Qabalistic understandings. Even as i have understood it
Qabalistically, "God" does have one condition throughout the Bible - that we evolve/adapt or go extinct -
survival of the most adaptable.
"And as all things have arisen from the One by the mediation of the One: so all things have their birth from this One by adaptation."
The Emerald Tablet agrees - adaptation is the "condition".
Adam and Eve eating the apple was adaptation.
Getting kicked out of the garden was adaptation.
Jacob wrestling with an angel was adaptation.
Joseph thrown down a well was adaptation.
Moses in the desert was adaptation.
Cain slaying Abel was adaptation.
Jesus on the cross is adaptation...

The Bible is the history of the One thing through adaptation, for the Qabalist who sees it.
The different names are adaptations of the One.
Abram becoming Abraham is adaptation. etc, etc.

So sin would be to not be capable of adaptation.
This is why the 'seed' of some persons was stamped out.

When Eve and Adam eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, there
is no mention from God that they have sinned. Read carefully:
http://bible.cc/genesis/3.htm

God curses the serpent and curses the ground. God doesn't curse Adam or Eve.
But God does make life more challenging so that they must adapt. There is no mention of sin.
Why put words in God's mouth that were not said? :)