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solomon levi
02-01-2013, 05:28 PM
there already exist a couple threads on choice but i wanted to share another aspect i've been seeing.
every choice has multiple reactions. a choice to support x is a choice not to support y or z... every choice is a choice to de-emphasize a billion other choices. people are quick to associate choice with freedom, choice has a far greater percentage of its expression in separation, fracturing and dividing - the things responsible for pain and conflict, etc. just as matter is 99% space, so is choice 99% exclusion of potential.
i am merely wanting to define things accurately. i'm not saying we shouldn't choose - we are the choosing portion of infinity. but we are also infinity, which is choiceless. when we talk about source or infinity, we are talking about the choiceless, the unconditioned. when we talk about choice we are talking about the conditioned and limited - the separator, divider, dual, devil... the serpent which tempted eve to go against 'god'... to choose for herself. the consequence was exile.

solomon levi
02-01-2013, 05:44 PM
sorry if i post a couple posts to say what i want. the thing i'm typing on only allows so many characters...
i wanted to finish saying every choice exiles a million others - exiles us from the unconditioned 'garden'. every choice murders a million other choices, if you will... divides us from the whole, from unity.
there are two possible 'unities' ... everyone agrees to be choiceless or everyone agrees to individual choice. we live in individual choice now but most complain about it. but that complaint is possible only because of individual choice.

Ghislain
02-01-2013, 05:48 PM
Sol

I quickly learned not to give my youngest child a choice for his dinner, because if I did
he would keep us waiting ages for an answer.

I would sometimes forget, give him a choice and then get angry when he couldn't decide.

The consequence of having a choice is that it puts the onus on the decision maker to foresee the
outcome of the choice.

My son is all grown up now, but still procrastinates when given a choice. Choice is certainly not
freedom to the procrastinator.

Just for the purpose of discussion...do we really make choices or is choice just a delusion and everything
is really preordained?

Ghislain

solomon levi
02-01-2013, 06:07 PM
choice is also selection - this, not that. something i see alot is a universe of agreements. when science talks about energy and forces they are talking about agreements. humans act out the same agreements on a different scale. gravity or the strong nuclear force are agreements just like love and strife or friendship.
i would even say that knowing what can and can't agree and when is the essence of enlightenment. enlightenment also involves knowing the difference between willful and natural agreement.

Ghislain
02-01-2013, 06:24 PM
People make choices by considering four things IMO

Logic/Head, Feeling/Heart, Previous-experience/Life and intuition/?.

I guess it is what bias you give to each of the first three that may formulate
a choice.

I think the difference between willful and natural agreement is when one
thinks of the outcome and hence puts a bias on it -willful- and when one
feels the right choice through intuition without thinking -natural-

If we really make choices by what does and doesn't agree then why are
there so many bad choices made? Or are you saying that is what we
should do?

Ghislain

solomon levi
02-02-2013, 09:36 PM
Sol

I quickly learned not to give my youngest child a choice for his dinner, because if I did
he would keep us waiting ages for an answer.

I would sometimes forget, give him a choice and then get angry when he couldn't decide.

The consequence of having a choice is that it puts the onus on the decision maker to foresee the
outcome of the choice.

My son is all grown up now, but still procrastinates when given a choice. Choice is certainly not
freedom to the procrastinator.

Just for the purpose of discussion...do we really make choices or is choice just a delusion and everything
is really preordained?

Ghislain

Well, choice means conscious choice, and the choices we can be conscious of are preordained, pre-existing,
the known, knowledge... this is what makes us machines - to choose from our past/knowledge/programs.
There's wiggle room in there, but it's all still programmed. We aren't pre-ordained by God but by believing
in our minds/knowledge/past. This is a loop that can be broken if we stop using our minds/knowledge/thought.
Then we exist in choiceless awareness - the present, one's "true" nature (as some have called it)...

solomon levi
02-02-2013, 09:55 PM
People make choices by considering four things IMO

Logic/Head, Feeling/Heart, Previous-experience/Life and intuition/?.

I guess it is what bias you give to each of the first three that may formulate
a choice.

I think the difference between willful and natural agreement is when one
thinks of the outcome and hence puts a bias on it -willful- and when one
feels the right choice through intuition without thinking -natural-

If we really make choices by what does and doesn't agree then why are
there so many bad choices made? Or are you saying that is what we
should do?

Ghislain

in my perception will belongs to a person, an ego, a personal history, a collection of knowledge... and the person belongs to their true nature. so i agree, knowledge is always biased.
the unbiased 'choiceless choice' comes from being, or being present in the pure sense where thoughts do not arise or are allowed to arise without attachment or identification. it's hard to define the...

solomon levi
02-02-2013, 10:09 PM
difference because it has to do with something absent. it's like one hand clapping... imagine a choice where only one option is present so there is no choice... that's what presence is like. there's only one present to choose from. the mind/memory make it appear otherwise. this present is living and not preordained. it is a living ever-mutable flux which our perception, when dominated by the mind/past/knowledge, turns to stone/objects.

solomon levi
02-02-2013, 10:20 PM
with agreement we have alignment, resonance. in this way we are somewhat preordained... we can't agree without resonance and we can't resonate without similarity, likeness, recognition, the known... we could and do, but on an unconscious level - which i call natural.

Ilos
02-03-2013, 05:20 PM
Sometimes the consequences of a person or life its self it doesn't have a choice unless theres a choice to be made for the consequences to be made into a choice.

solomon levi
03-26-2013, 10:14 AM
depeche mode, policy of truth:

You had something to hide
Should have hidden it, shouldn't you
Now you're not satisfied
With what you're being put through

It's just time to pay the price
For not listening to advice
And deciding in your youth
On the policy of truth

Things could be so different now
It used to be so civilized
You will always wonder how
It could have been if you'd only lied

It's too late to change events
It's time to face the consequence
For delivering the proof
In the policy of truth

Never again
Is what you swore
The time before
Never again
Is what you swore
The time before

Now you're standing there tongue tied
You'd better learn your lesson well
Hide what you have to hide
And tell what you have to tell
You'll see your problems multiplied
If you continually decide
To faithfully pursue
The policy of truth

Never again
Is what you swore
The time before

glenerson
03-26-2013, 01:53 PM
if you already accept the consequences of choice before they happen that means that you already know what you will get after choosing something.

see the problem with human mind is that it cannot accept the fact that everything has been already predetermined. Time just delays things and it uses choice to pace things up. the existence of constants in the universe such as the speed of light or the decay rate of Hydrogen just tells us that everything in the universe was chosen arbitrarily before hand. That this variations and the existence of choice is just illusionary.

solomon levi
03-31-2013, 04:13 AM
just found this on fb:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/164397_10151459577702381_1974007562_n.jpg

Andro
03-31-2013, 05:26 AM
I don't believe in 'freedom of choice'. Everything that happens - happens because it is inevitable, because it cannot be/couldn't have happened otherwise.

I believe that 'choice' is just something we invent/imagine in order to have some illusion of control over what is in fact infinitely inevitable.

'Choices' and 'consequences' only appear to be linearly connected, while they actually happen simultaneously (for lack of a better term).
And they 'happen' within the 'Singularity' which our perception has spread out to generate the appearance of 'time' (and 'space', etc...).

I believe we never actually left/leave this 'Singularity' (call it one, zero, all/both or anything else - call it what you will).

I have underlined 'believe' because I think that:

1. Everything we see/communicate is an approximation at best, and...

2. Even what we call/refer to as 'seeing'/'knowing'/'direct experience', is merely a more refined form of belief. Belief in what we tell ourselves, just to keep those 'wheels' spinning :)

The dream believing itself to be 'real', which also includes a belief in 'choice' and 'consequence'.

This is not to say that I am blind to the 'current' (:)) fact that 'one thing leads to another' when experienced in 'linear' mode, I'm just saying there are other ways to see it.

IMO :p

Personally, throughout the years, I am gradually realizing that the less I 'interfere' with my life, the 'smoother' it 'flows' (but it's not like I ever had a choice...).

It's an amazing feeling of surrender (for lack of a better term :))... Not surrender TO something/someone, except to the inevitability of it all...


just found this on fb:

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/164397_10151459577702381_1974007562_n.jpg

solomon levi
03-31-2013, 10:23 AM
Inevitable is still true with infinite choices being made. Things are inevitable because they are infinitely chosen to be so by everything existing at every moment.
Or the inevitable and the unlikely could be twin universes. :)

If belief is your One Thing of which everything else is shades of, from refined to gross, then choice is one of those shades too.
Whatever can be believed can be believed. Even the unbelief in choice can be believed. If you don't get to choose, why would what you believe matter? It would be quite a coincidence if your belief turned out to be the only one that is true. :)

I don't think we left the singularity either. I see we are smeared from it to here and beyond. "Reality" or matter or creation or ego, is the most focussed and defined portion of the smear. Dying broadens the aperature, increases the flash, so we have a broader defined portion. If we stay there for billions of years we may learn how to die from there too. Some people want to read the book over and over, while others just have time for the footnotes, or watch it on blu-ray. The attention to detail makes time longer or shorter... there are all kinds of time-loops when we pay them attention.

I've seen both choice and non-choice/automated/programmed options and experienced them. I was just seeing something about this earlier this week, having this conversation/argument in my head. The argument in my mind decided that choice is perceived when we learn to slow down time or divide it into more portions. Reactions are the things that happen simultaneously when they are two sides of one coin. When there is space between one side and another side, then we have potential for choice. Programming can continue into space and prevent choice, but the more space one can perceive, the more probable choice becomes. Is this choice only relative to a greater unseen program? Yes. To infinity. For the One "Thing", it doesn't matter if choice is possible or not, if we believe or not, if reality is subjective or not... everything will fit inside of this infinite One "Thing". It doesn't have to consider if it's true or not, real or not, bigger picture or not. Every argument and disagreement we have is proof of this, unless you want to proclaim that you exist and I don't. So far no one has crossed that line. We might as well since the One "Thing" doesn't give a flip. :)
I can't write my most brilliant remarks which communicate more directly because they blur the boundaries of what is inappropriate and then the fabric of the universe will rip and the temple will fall and all hell breaks loose. :)
Is it a decision? Decide what to let into the world or not? Sure, it will find a way if it's supposed to. But it didn't come from me tonight 'cause I chose to restrain it, multiple times. Would it really make a difference if I say it? Depends how big it has to be for you to call it a difference. Ripples will definitely happen. "Objects" will react to the ripples and "subjects" will respond. Response is choice, or a more refined version of reaction. People who respond are capable of pausing and taking time, observing the programmed reaction and then choosing whether to allow the program or not. "Or not" could be choosing a different program. If all is program... the Eagle's commands as Castaneda calls the emanations, frequencies... then choice is alignment with a different program. Even though all programs are already existing, and their myriad combinations are foreseen, we can still have choice within that. It doesn't break any laws or contradict anything.

Example... God gives us 7 colors to create reality with (just an example), 7 threads of rainbow colors. That is all - it is predetermined and all there is. Then one comes along and thinks of braiding three of the threads. As soon as the idea occurs, God has envisioned every possible combination of braids that can ever happen, like a infinitely fast supercomputer. Now that one is going to do something God has predetermined, but only AFTER man/woman/whatever conceived of the idea. And even though all these options are all the possible options that exist, one can still choose what threads to braid right now. I can choose to spell unicorn like this: unacorn. Wasn't me? God planned that?! God's as insane as I am then. Every insanity we do, God thought or created as an option first? Is this the argument or am I trippin'? :) And don't argue that you don't
believe in God... just substitute whatever word or no word you believe has predetermined everything leaving no option for human choice.
I mean what does that mean? "God" already created every piece of art down to your 4-year old nephew's coloring book scribbles?
What is the point of arguing that? That is not a disproof of choice. I must be trippin' 'cause this is a weird argument to be having with myself. :)

Anyway, I have better proof. Let me remember it...
Well, I can prove both sides of this argument, so it doesn't matter.

There are various coins laying on the floor of the house i live at... just small change that has fallen or whatever... it was there before I moved in a couple months ago. Sometimes i pick up a coin and take it in my room and add it to my personal change. Sometimes i don't. It is not only dependant on the value of the coin either. Sometimes it's a penny, sometimes a quarter. How do i do both of these on different days if I am programmed? Is it all genetics? Astrology?
I think there's plenty of proof that that is not all there is to life. Besides, I've changed both my genetics and my astrology at times in my life. "But that's all part of the program"... meh... you can say that to everything. Saying it doesn't make it absolute.
Even if the only choice we have is the illusion of time, that's still a choice... I don't have to be illuded/illusioned by time. I experience both of these options as well.
If one reacts to another saying they have no choice by doing something unordinary, that is programmed; but what they specifically choose to do as their reaction... how is that programmed when they are thinking of doing things they never would have thought of if you didn't challenge them? What if I sew a blue thread into a silver oven mitten? I wouldn't have thought of doing that if this argument weren't present. Everything I can think of already exists as a potential in God... that doesn't mean we don't choose which potentials to emphasize. Not only is what i think possibly a choice, as there are millions of things i could think of doing that are unusual, there is also the choice whether or not to actually do them or let them just be thoughts. And like that supercomputer, I forsee many options, and many actions. I will not sew a blue thread into the silver oven mitten, but I did touch my nose with my left pinky finger. That was preordained?

Choice exists by some definition... I am certain of this. :) That we can draw an absolute line that never moves on that definition is the illusion.
As i said, I can emphasize choice and non-choice... I can see them both.
The longer I contemplate things I can do to prove choice, the more original and creative they become. But even if I were mundane, it would be a one of kind event that can never happen the same way again. I see that the Potential already holds everything that can be imagined. That is a very specific and unusual definition for the non-existence of choice if that is your reasoning.

Everything that happens is inevitable in infinity, but not inevitable today. I just stuck a zipper up my nose. What is this nose fetish I have? Okay, think of other body parts... no, that's association... think of something not on your body... now that's a swing to an opposite side of the body-nonbody coin... okay.... as i searched for something that was neither association or opposition, I fell into silence and stillness. The duration of the stillness was inevitable, down to the billi-second? I don't know - I didn't choose to stop it. Now I was just thinking and I did choose to stop myself in the middle of a thought. Sometimes I don't choose and sometimes I do choose. Is no one else able to experience this?
The difference between the illusion of control and the reality of control is a very fine line, again not absolute or fixed or preordained, but subjectively changing and varying according to who you meet.
I imagine another example... a guy says you cannot choose... the guy he says it to punches him in the face.... the guy says "see I threatened your beliefs and you react with violence, just like a program!"... the other guys says, "no, I've never punched anyone in the face before, I am not a violent person. That's why I punched you - to prove it was choice... Why are you surprised? Wasn't this preordained? Why didn't you duck?"

If it is preordained by something other than you, how can you know it is preordained?
If it is preordained by you, then you can change it, re-preordain it or unpreordain it.
What if it's preordained that we unpreordain everything? :)

Time for beddy bye. :)
It is preordained that I work at 11am.
Will I show up 2 minutes early? 15 minutes early? 4 minutes late?
I dunno. I'm gonna aim for the early side, somewhere between 10 and 2 minutes. :)
Isn't it a form/refinement of the illusion of control to imagine things are preordained? Ahhhh. That's true! :)

solomon levi
04-03-2013, 01:53 AM
to call it choice or not seems like a choice. :)
the more conscious we are, the more attenion we give, the more choice becomes an option. as usual, both are true, relatively, according to how many conditions we ascribe to.
whether we call it choice or not doesn't change what is actually happening, and what i perceive, trying to be as objective as possible, is scale... isn't that so? just as spirit and matter are one thing viewed as opposite ends of a scale, so is choice and no choice. the no choice of the unaware evolves into the choice of the more aware which evolves into surrendering our choice/will to choiceless awareness/union. that's one option i've walked anyways... not the only path.

solomon levi
04-03-2013, 02:10 AM
Gurdjieff analysed it well imo. he said we are machines (reacting mechanically) with the possibility of will. he saw each persona composed of many contradictory 'I's... if man could observe these 'I's, like Castaneda's stalking oneself, and gain some knowledge of their habits and predict them and detach, one could begin to possess a center of gravity or consistent relatively single or dominant 'I' capable of choice/will.
but he also said something to the effect that we are always under laws and our 'choice' is merely in what laws we aquiesce to. he also saw scale, from the absolute with 1 law, to 3, 6, 12...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_of_Creation

being under fewer laws appears as more choice.

Lunsola
05-20-2013, 07:11 AM
Love the punch argument Sol, lol. For me I actually would like it to be as Androgynus said, no real freedom of choice. The reason being if there isn't really a freedom of choice then I could feel free to "choose" whatever I really want without guilt, remorse, or anything holding me back. The surrender does indeed appear sweet but could be bittersweet. I'm not saying that I want to pursue what most would call dark or evil things but there certainly are what some would call grey areas that interest me from time to time.

Unnatural creations beget unnatural problems. I feel like people are creating things which have no basis in reality then trying to guilt or shame others when they don't fall in line with another person's views. Religious people do this a lot. Like attracts like. In this case it can be on either end of the scale of light/dark. By trying to prevent something one can actually cause it to happen.

I suppose my own views fall in line with both fate and free will. I believe we all have an ultimate fate or purpose but that our side quests are our own. Of course I believe we could also shun our purpose but would most likely have as you say a consequence for it. Some say the strong do not fear consequences. I would agree to an extent but also note that many times consequences are far reaching, almost always beyond what a person can normally see.

Kind of reminds me of this religious text I was once reading. A young man was asking an old man about his beliefs. He kept asking him questions about divinity and life and the old man always responded with the same statement: That is not my belief. The entire point being he had no beliefs. Things simply were as they were or not. He didn't place as much value on them as others did.

solomon levi
06-05-2013, 07:32 PM
Nice Lunsola. Yeah, I've seen that too from a nondualistic view, if we are objects of the source and not subjects
as we imagine, then we are free of guilt, choice, error, etc.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/601765_607618232590587_2134590241_n.jpg

This is what I do most of the time. It's what I mean when I say I don't believe, or I believe without believing.
I can "entertain" or see the truth/reality/possibility of any thought/idea/view... but I always know it's one among billions
and that allows detachment or freedom from belief which would make me subject to that view.

solomon levi
06-05-2013, 07:32 PM
Nice Lunsola. Yeah, I've seen that too from a nondualistic view, if we are objects of the source and not subjects
as we imagine, then we are free of guilt, choice, error, etc.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/601765_607618232590587_2134590241_n.jpg

This is what I do most of the time. It's what I mean when I say I don't believe, or I believe without believing.
I can "entertain" or see the truth/reality/possibility of any thought/idea/view... but I always know it's one among billions
and that allows detachment or freedom from belief which would make me subject to that view.

solomon levi
07-11-2013, 07:22 PM
."Can you see, then, what we are trying to do when we seek the positive and avoid the negative? We are trying to have yang without yin. We are trying to arrange a life game in which there is winning without losing. How can you arrange such a state of affairs? If we are all equally happy, it is impossible to know that we are happy, because a certain flatness will come over everything. If we lifted up all valleys, and lowered all mountains, we should have the sort of destruction of the ecology that they are achieving with bulldozers in the Hollywood Hills, in ghastly fulfillment of the biblical prophecy that every valley should be exalted and every mountain laid low, and the rough places made even. But Isaiah also said something that Christians, at least, do not often quote, which is, 'I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light and create the darkness. I make peace and I create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things.' In spite of this, everybody is busy trying to be good, not realizing that we would not recognize saints unless there were sinners, or sages unless there were fools. There is no way out of that dilemma." ~Alan Watts

That is the consequence of choice... information/choice denies or de-emphasizes exformation/unconditioned... the rest, the 'other'...
When we don't choose, we lose our ability to label, to separate, to have preferences, to judge, to want 'other' than what is...
Choose your battles wisely... do not be the victim of your choices.