PDA

View Full Version : Alchemist-Messiah



glenerson
02-15-2013, 10:24 PM
Do you notice that within your mind, everything is possible?

Like you could look at the periodic table and Look at element 82 and move to element 79 and think that your mind transmuted lead to gold?

Yes, in spirit by just doing that, you already transmuted gold.

But you have matter.

For the one that created matter made it such that it lords over your spirit.

It emanated the word, "Impossible". It imposes you the rule, "You must obey the laws of matter."

For the material world is prison. It imprisoned your spirit. It tells you that it is greater than the spirit.

It tells you that what happens in your mind is unreal. And what happens in the material world is real.

The lord of this material world was made to suppress your spirit. The lord of this world prevents you to know the One.

But there are people who know how to escape from the prison. And there are people who know how to destroy the prison itself.

Those who know how to escape the prison doesn't destroy the material world. They leave the other souls behind and does it for their own sake.

Those who know how to destroy the prison destroys the material world. They are the Saviours. The Messiahs. They will know that everything are just the emanation of themselves.

The prior people have already existed in the past.

Now it is the time for the latter to exist. For if they will be Saviours, each of them will claim everything, and each of them will be existing individually, in Spirit. Everyone will be God, One God in many. Many God in each.

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 12:44 AM
i don't understand... one cannot realise for another or it'd already be our reality (realised beings already exist)... so what is a messiah? a destroyer of the world? the world is a description. everyone must destroy or expand their own description. who has ever experienced otherwise? others can point, but messiahs do not do all the work for everyone, nor do they destroy this world which is their partner/beloved without which realisation could not occur. what do you mean Glen?

glenerson
02-16-2013, 01:09 AM
Messiahs are the Ones that will liberate Spirits from the material world. These Enlightened ones, in relatable terms, will make every individual "solipsists" and consider themselves and matter as illusions. And if this is so, Each soul will absorb the Oneness of the Universe, thus creating Multiples of this Oneness, thus liberating itself from the common ground, that is the reality imposed by the creator of the material world.

Say myself, if I was liberated by the One which becomes me, I would absorb the Oneness of the Universe, destroy it until only myself exist.

Let's consider that I am a "Messiah", but if I am not a benevolent Messiah, I would just think of myself. I won't share this knowledge. I would only want that I was the realization of the One. Nothing else.

But that would be selfish. The will of the Messiah is to make other souls to be like him.

So what I would do is to liberate other souls. Say I am liberating you. I would make it such that the Oneness of Everything is also with you, thus making multiple instances of the One and you will become Me which is from and became the One. And in effect, you will also be the One, and you will also liberate other souls.

Your Spirit, my Spirit and others Spirit, exist individually as instances of the One, but we are many. But even that we are many, we are within the Fullness experienced individually, thus making it seem like many are United in the Oneness of God.

My criteria for the Messiah is for Him to have the ability to destroy matter. For we are slaves of matter. Jesus Christ is both matter and divine and He was incarnated as such for Him to perform His divine will, that is to liberate us from matter and be united with God in his divinity. He is an archetype of the Messiah. Now, anyone can be the Messiah for the prophets have prohesied for the 2nd coming. Some says that He will physically return. But I believe that He will just touch the minds of those who seek liberation and will teach the path to liberation and this will be spread to every soul in such a way that every soul is liberated. I believe that this is the Christ's will of Salvation, for the purpose of Oneness with God.

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 01:37 AM
okay. i think i understand. for me, it is not selfish and i won't make anyone do anything. otherwise, count me a christ like you. :)
god-theone-infinity-unconditioned and condioned already is always, hence one. so providence prevails: god's will is. what christ could desire other than god's will/'that which is? that would be selfish from my perspective (nothing wrong with being selfish). :) god, the one unselfish one, manifests as many selfish individuals in It's journey of self awareness and expression/unfoldment.
when speaking of the one, it gets confusing to divide it into realised and unrealized, matter and spirit, destruction and creation...

glenerson
02-16-2013, 01:40 AM
I would perfectly visualize it by reversing the plot of the Matrix. Instead of the red pill telling you that the world is the physical world controlled by the machines, the red pill would tell you that the Matrix is the real world and by this knowledge, the physical world of the machines becomes THE illusion, and this knowledge will eventually make you operate in the Matrix even you're detached from the physical world.

For if you think that the physical world is an illusion, in essence the physical world is destroyed. Its meaning won't be true anymore and the one that was considered the illusion (Matrix/Spirit World) becomes real.

Thus you won't experience physical death for it will be have no meaning. You are now immortal and "death" in your new terms, is just the end of the illusion.

For this illusion will be the last tinge of "the image of matter". For if the illusion ends, you'll be one with darkness which will make you full. You'll be one with Eternal. You become eternal. You will be one with God. You and God will be one.

This is not a product of watching too much Matrix. This has a valid school of thought called "docetism", which said that Christs humanity is just an illusion and he was fully divine/spiritual.

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 01:51 AM
This is not crazy talk. This is not a product of watching too much Matrix. This has a valid school of thought called "docetism", which said that Christs humanity is just an illusion and he was fully divine/spiritual.

No. I'm sincerely agreeing. I see too. What we see is a matter of perspective.
For me, it is a false messiah who thinks/sees that there is a right way that the world should be... without matter, or whatever.
That is the reaction upon first waking up/seeing, to swing to the opposite. But the One is whole/all/one, not just this part.
So do you really align with the One, or with yourself or some group of others that want conditions.
If God wanted conditions, they'd be inherently imposed.

In other words, I agree with your view as a possibility/agreement/experience.
I agree that some could agree that this is how it "should be"... happens all the time here.
I disagree that that is an objective definition of a christ or messiah.
I disagree that your view is God the One's view.

Wanting to change things is why we are "stuck" (we're not stuck - it's an agreement) in matter. Matter is the world of change.

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 02:03 AM
But if you say this is an outline of what happens for the individual... yes, I agree it is pretty accurate about
the "destruction"/unfoldment of matter. I don't think or see that a christ makes this happen to others, though s/he
can definitely be a catalyst.
No one made it happen to me - it was/is an agreement, a corroboration. I actively sought it out and seduced it and was graced.
I won't even say "I" made it happen. A christ is not an "I" by (my?) definition. S/he is the whole. What can be changed about a whole? :)

I am playing/emphasizing the active, willful part of the whole now, of course, to talk with you about differences.
The difference is, "my" difference already is what is. Your difference, a world without matter, is not the present experience.
We experience a spectrum of worlds and select/emphasize some frequencies and ignore others. To perceive the entirety of the spectrum
does not leave any room for will/option/desire/"I"/"other"/thought/comparison, etc...

Sorry... I'll be quiet now. I'm speaking as if I know something.
I'm not arguing, just communicating differences and samenesses. But it sounds all stupid when I write it as if one is more true than another.
It's all just agreement. Agreement makes reality. I wouldn't agree to making others do something because I don't want others making me do stuff
when I'm not ready, not ripe with passion...

glenerson
02-16-2013, 02:18 AM
The One is perfection.

The emptiness. The nothingness. Before light and everything was made, there was darkness. This darkness is emptiness. The nothingness. And along with this darkness and emptiness, is the voice of God which created everything.

Darkness coexisted with God. I could even say that God and darkness/emptiness/nothingness were One.

The Gnostics have explained that this One is the Fullness of God which begot the Son, in which had Sophia who created the demiurge who created matter. It was Sophia/Wisdom, who is from the Son and From God which created the material world, for the purpose of knowing God. Her aim was fulfilled and Christ came to the material world as human and divine to bring Sophia to the Fullness. And when Sophia is inside the pleroma, the material world is destroyed.

It was Sophia who went out from fullness to nothingness. It was her attempt to know God that matter was created from nothingness. Now that the Word integrated Her back to the fullness, this void/nothingness became part of the fullness and thus became full. It became one with the One and the One.

The One for me is the fullness of the Divine without the anomaly of Sophia. It is the perfection of the Spirit. It is the freedom of matter, which rests on the first thing that was created - light.

I would say that this is the One. And the aim of the alchemist is rubedo, the Oneness with God. and it starts with nigredo, the destruction of matter.

I would think that paths to God should be possible in zillion of ways. But we see that the Sun rises from the East to West and the Earth is the 3rd planet from the sun and we have 2 eyes and such. We're made in such precision. This is how God made us and for sure He imposed conditions or rules. If there are multiple ways to go from point A to point B, surely there is ONLY 1 way to get them connected drawing the least distance. This is the concept of Ultimate Truth and this is based on conditions..

But that is just my opinion. We are treading our own paths and creating our own processes to get there. :D

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 02:32 AM
I have some solipsism to share. :)
This has been my favorite song for a couple weeks... notice the metorite which actually happened today in Russia.
So the healing has also happened (represented in the video) :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F15IjgyHd60
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Omh7_I8vI

Seth-Ra
02-16-2013, 02:59 AM
A "teacher" guides and puts information in front of a "student" - but in truth, the student teaches themselves.

A "messiah" guides and puts the wisdom out there, but the receivers of the message enlighten themselves by receiving what they need in that moment.

Everything, from spirit - the most subtle, to matter - the most fixed, is energy/vibration. The difference between a teacher/messiah and a student/follower, is frequency, at any given moment.
Matter is never to be done away with, because it is part of spirit. Spirit will always manifest a body/vehicle to exist in on whatever frequency/plane being discussed. This is verifiable in the lab.

Yes, matter must be shattered and broken down - just as the consciousness of your spirit - and infact your spirit itself, split into its various parts, just like the matter. It is all for the knowing of self - material self, spiritual self, one-self, all-self, no-self.

The Concepts, the Principles, the Laws/Rules (if you wanna call them that), the Agreements (if thats more acceptable) of the Art, are One - One set "Code" for all us divine "hackers" to know, work, write, re-write, etc etc. But our individual expression of that, is each person's value - their identity as a cell of this Body, of both matter and spirit - combined. Neither is greater, except in direction of polarity.
Just as there are those who promote enlightenment and wisdom, so there are also those who promote ignorance and materialism, or ignorance and spiritualism, causing what i, personally (due to my polarity) consider to be a "shadow", and a lowering of vibrations - not making things more dense, but rather, making them less harmonious - a self-destructive breaking away.
That, in and of itself, is not really "bad" - it just is. For those who fall into that category - its right. For those that dont, its not, and for those that see beyond the dual, it just is, and is energy to be used and harnessed for the continued Art of Life.

Any "messiah" that forces, rather than guides, is a warlord, not a savior. As parts of the Whole - by their divine right of being, each individual has the right to choose their path, their view, and exercise that within the Power/Laws/Agreements that make up the shared existence of this All. Anything else, is slavery, and cruelty to the soul/polarity of the ones who do not fit within the forced-side.

I may not agree with a satanist (at the moment, im not saying i do or dont, only giving an example), but that does not mean i wont love them and be their friend, because i respect their divine right to be as they feel they should, due to the divine design of the All, not just my personal, piece of the All.


Food for thought. :)




~Seth-Ra

glenerson
02-16-2013, 03:53 AM
Just as the Messiah in the Bible crypted his teachings in the forms of parables, that means he intended his teachings to be only be understood by certain people. This will be rectified in his Second coming, for salvation will be for all.
His Second coming is the sign of his benevolence. For the teacher/student relationship poses the problem of (in)ability or (un)willingness to learn. A student may not be like the teacher. He will either be less than or greater than him. But Salvation ensures that the Student becomes and will be like the Teacher.. That the Messiahs will be all and united with God.

Surely I would respect views that matter and spirit should coexist in harmony. You could say that they should be in hypostatic union, just like the nature of Christ. But religions existed with hope to be free from suffering, to be saved from Evil, to be One with God. Alchemy existed for the soul to be transformed to the highest form. Usually perfection is purity. Matter and Spirit is an impure mix. Matter is the slave master and Spirit is the slave. Matter is the evil tyrant that is the cause of all the problems in the world and it attempts to stain and eliminate the Spirit by imposing that it is the only Truth or by imposing that it is essential for the Truth to exist. Everything that is possible within the Spirit is sometimes is not possible when translated in Matter. Thus there is no inherent harmony between those two. The relationship is dependence, slavery. The only thing is the one is burdening the other.

Part of the alchemists attempt to break free from matter and part to vent out the frustration is to translate in verbose, beautiful wordings say the changing of copper to green when it is oxidized. The matter version is crude while when it is on paper, it is so subtlely magnificent and divine. See how the ugly chemical reaction translates in Spirit in forms of metaphor and allegories?

This is just to show you, which i will iterate again, that what is painted beautifully in Spirit is based on crudeness, limitation and ugliness in matter. It is not harmonious. And the alchemists spirit is enslaved by imposing rules of matter.

So i would disagree that there should be a harmonious relationship between matter and spirit for it is impossible. For matter is meant to exist temporarily, because it is only made to know the Fullness. When enlightenment/gnosis is attained, this matter will serve no meaning anymore, thus it is destroyed.

The Messiah previously was a Teacher waiting for the Student to be enlightened. But Time will end. And The 2nd Coming, He will be that Benevolent Messiah which will come again and liberate/save everyone, making them like Him, bring everyone to Oneness and be Eternal. For the Divine Will is to be benevolent. To save every soul. You could visualize this as a Farmer harvesting all the fruits in the farm, for it is now time to harvest.

Seth, I was intrigued about your final comments. If you think that I'm a Satanist based on what I said, which i think you inferred by categorizing me equating "darkness" with God, you're mistaken. This God that I'm referring to is the Christian/Gnostic/Universal/Monad God. and I was referring to "darkness" for it was the one separated when light was created by God/Sophia in Genesis 1. So this "darkness" is eternal like God. Satan is one of God's creation so this darkness that i refer to doesn't connote Satan. I hope I'm not giving you that impression.

Seth-Ra
02-16-2013, 06:28 AM
Just as the Messiah in the Bible crypted his teachings in the forms of parables, that means he intended his teachings to be only be understood by certain people. This will be rectified in his Second coming, for salvation will be for all.

Salvation, in the manner you speak of, has never been for "all" - but only "those that would receive it". The Biblical Second Coming does not demonstrate salvation for all - but salvation for them that will be saved, and damnation for those that wont.
This also is a thing of a person's individual polarity.


His Second coming is the sign of his benevolence.

True benevolence is allowing people free will, not forced doctrine. The divine does not force anything. Lead is not punished for being lead, but rather, made use of, while it is lead. The Stone heals it of where its currently at, and makes it gold, if the lead is opened and able to receive it. If only the outside is opened, then only the outside will be transmuted, leaving a leaden core. (also demonstrable in the lab.) ;)


For the teacher/student relationship poses the problem of (in)ability or (un)willingness to learn. A student may not be like the teacher. He will either be less than or greater than him. But Salvation ensures that the Student becomes and will be like the Teacher.. That the Messiahs will be all and united with God.

Relationship is never a problem. The thing you are ultimately disparaging is diversity within the unity. It is a beautiful thing when my friends and I can discuss the same exact principles, and then manifest them in entirely different ways. From an All-perspective, there is no "lesser" or "greater" - they both just "are". As i stated, something is only considered that, due to its polarity in the moment. One moment i may be the "teacher" with my friend, and the next, they might be to me. We do not deny the student/teacher - lesser/greater idea, but rather embrace it for what it is, and recognize it for its utter One/none-ness.


Surely I would respect views that matter and spirit should coexist in harmony. You could say that they should be in hypostatic union, just like the nature of Christ. But religions existed with hope to be free from suffering, to be saved from Evil, to be One with God. Alchemy existed for the soul to be transformed to the highest form. Usually perfection is purity.

Religions exist to express a people's version of approaching the All/One God and creating a relationship with it, individually and as a collective. Alchemy is the science of Spirit and Matter, combined and together. As Above, So Below, as Within, so Without. There is only division when there is imbalance within the individual or groups creating the division. Even this, on a All-scale, balances out. Yin and Yang act on each other, but are both actually One at the same time. :)


Matter and Spirit is an impure mix. Matter is the slave master and Spirit is the slave. Matter is the evil tyrant that is the cause of all the problems in the world and it attempts to stain and eliminate the Spirit by imposing that it is the only Truth or by imposing that it is essential for the Truth to exist. Everything that is possible within the Spirit is sometimes is not possible when translated in Matter. Thus there is no inherent harmony between those two. The relationship is dependence, slavery. The only thing is the one is burdening the other.

Considering Christ is your go-to example, im afraid i dont see where this above quote even falls into place - Christ took his material body with Him. Matter isnt evil, no more than Spirit is evil. Spirit, infact, dictates to the matter, how it will form, how it will interact, how it will be. The two are nothing more than faces of the same Coin - one just penetrates into, outside of, and came before, the other. But that doesnt make the other any less important or relevant. If it were so, matter would not exist in the first place. ;)


Part of the alchemists attempt to break free from matter and part to vent out the frustration is to translate in verbose, beautiful wordings say the changing of copper to green when it is oxidized. The matter version is crude while when it is on paper, it is so subtlely magnificent and divine. See how the ugly chemical reaction translates in Spirit in forms of metaphor and allegories?

I do not recognize an attempt to "break free from matter" - but rather, to evolve matter and spirit, what we call "transmutation."
As for copper, or any lab work for that matter, to be considered crude vs the written expression... the written expression is still matter. It is pen, it is paper, pigment and fiber, it is thought in the brain, which is bio-electrical, energy = matter.
Can you not see the beauty in both art and practice? To have thought without the practical application/practice is merely base speculation and what is known as "armchair philosophy." To have base practice without divine art, is a dead-ritual/science we call chemistry.
The two, together in unison, make the Royal Art of Alchemy - the God Science.


This is just to show you, which i will iterate again, that what is painted beautifully in Spirit is based on crudeness, limitation and ugliness in matter. It is not harmonious. And the alchemists spirit is enslaved by imposing rules of matter.

So i would disagree that there should be a harmonious relationship between matter and spirit for it is impossible. For matter is meant to exist temporarily, because it is only made to know the Fullness. When enlightenment/gnosis is attained, this matter will serve no meaning anymore, thus it is destroyed.

You talk about matter creating limitations for the Spirit, but by you determining that a harmonious union is "impossible" means you have created a limitation yourself, considering others, such as Christ, did pull off such a thing. At this present moment, you may not can see the beauty of the union - that doesnt make it impossible, except for you at this moment.


The Messiah previously was a Teacher waiting for the Student to be enlightened. But Time will end. And The 2nd Coming, He will be that Benevolent Messiah which will come again and liberate/save everyone, making them like Him, bring everyone to Oneness and be Eternal.

Time is ouroboral, it only seems linear, and ending, due to your placement within the ouroboros (a single scale on the snake).
I dont know how many trekkies we have that will appreciate this, but here it goes: For the whole "making them like Him", in the manner youre describing... no thanks, i wont be assimilated. ;)

The whole "Bride and Bridegroom" thing is far more appealing - to be the piece that i am, with no illusions about its limit, and yet unlimitedness, as both a micro part of the macro, and an individual macro to my own micro of influence.


For the Divine Will is to be benevolent. To save every soul. You could visualize this as a Farmer harvesting all the fruits in the farm, for it is now time to harvest.

If it were benevolence, it would allow the crop to ripen before attempting a harvest. People must be initiated by the Spirit, as they are ready/able. It cannot be forced upon them. Intellectual knowledge does not equate to real understanding, wisdom, or growth. It cant (as is demonstrated time and time again) be "said" or "told" and them just "get it" and be on that level. If it could be, it would, but all people are gonna get, is what they are able to receive, and people do not all grow at the same rate, or in the same direction. It all goes as it should, when it should, because it should.

Just like caring for a plant, the principles of care and growth are the same - all of their life-escenses are the same life-energy/soul, but each one is special, and grows differently, and has different requirements. The All/One knows this, and has things in place to grow them as its time. Maybe some take multiple life-times, maybe some take one, maybe some have fun after the "last one", and keep popping up as new sprouts, so they can keep watching the global progress. Its all about life and its relationship with its various selves.


Seth, I was intrigued about your final comments. If you think that I'm a Satanist based on what I said, which i think you inferred by categorizing me equating "darkness" with God, you're mistaken. This God that I'm referring to is the Christian/Gnostic/Universal/Monad God. and I was referring to "darkness" for it was the one separated when light was created by God/Sophia in Genesis 1. So this "darkness" is eternal like God. Satan is one of God's creation so this darkness that i refer to doesn't connote Satan. I hope I'm not giving you that impression.

LOL no, no, no. I was not at all implying that you were a satanist - i was merely giving an example of someone that would generally be opposite polarity of me, still being able to co-exist and grow with me, due to the benevolence of allowing their being to exist and grow.
I very well understand the concept of "in the beginning was shadow-eternal." ;)
I was not demonizing the One/All/None in anyway. :)


Happy searching and studying. ^.^




~Seth-Ra

Ghislain
02-16-2013, 10:47 AM
Picture yourself in total bliss...at one with everything...all knowing...in this state eternally.

Now picture yourself sitting out on a veranda warmed by the morning sun, birds flitting amongst the flowers
and shrubs around you, greeting you with their morning song. On the table in front of you your breakfast
beckons you to partake and all the while you wonder what this day has in store for you...

From which would you seek salvation?

They do say that the Angels envy man!

Ghislain

Andro
02-16-2013, 01:08 PM
Picture yourself in total bliss...at one with everything...all knowing...in this state eternally.
Now picture yourself sitting out on a veranda warmed by the morning sun [...]
-----------------------------------------------
From which would you seek salvation?

I'd say that whatever state we're in (out of those two you've described), it's because we sought 'salvation' from the other :)


Picture yourself in total bliss...at one with everything...all knowing...in this state eternally.

I would change this to 'at none with nothing' and 'all UN-knowing'.

Then, I'd probably go for it...

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 01:22 PM
yeah, i don't see the slave thing. it took billions of years, aeons, to learn to be this 'enslaved', or fixed as alchemy calls it. it's not like some accident or mistake we've found ourselves in. maybe there's different groups or kinds of people, or maybe some just don't remember, but i longed to be here. i am not enslaved. having a body on earth is but a flash in infinity. matter is but 1%. the 99% is not enslaved to it. and the 1% only exists because we observe and intend it - we force it together. we are it. it is coagulated spirit and spirit is diffused matter... 'to perform the miracles of the one'.
the perspective of a war or conflict or enslavement is not whole/one but obviously dual. and your christ or messiah is dual if it perceives some lack or imperfection in what is. a dualistic christ means nothing to me... who needs it? the world already knows dualism. saving others is just more dualism... someone deciding we're not good enough. plenty of that in the world already.

glenerson
02-16-2013, 05:51 PM
Salvation, in the manner you speak of, has never been for "all" - but only "those that would receive it". The Biblical Second Coming does not demonstrate salvation for all - but salvation for them that will be saved, and damnation for those that wont.
This also is a thing of a person's individual polarity.

the teachings of the Christ in his first Coming was thrown like a mustard seed to the ground. There were people who received it and there were people who didn't. This is perfectly valid for He was human and divine. He respected humanity's free will for he was one of them. His humanity expired when He died.

In his Second Coming, he will return as Purely Divine/Spirit. Salvation will be given to all, because of benevolence. You may view it as "forced" or "enslaving" but I wonder why "forced goodness" has still a negative connotation. You must be in the other end of polarity if you view this "forced goodness" as "bad".


True benevolence is allowing people free will, not forced doctrine. The divine does not force anything. Lead is not punished for being lead, but rather, made use of, while it is lead. The Stone heals it of where its currently at, and makes it gold, if the lead is opened and able to receive it. If only the outside is opened, then only the outside will be transmuted, leaving a leaden core. (also demonstrable in the lab.) ;)Free will expires when humanity/your material self expires. Illusion will be of the Hand of God until it ends and you're united with the fullness. Comparing still to the processes of material transmutation won't be true now. Only the benevolence of God plays.


Relationship is never a problem. The thing you are ultimately disparaging is diversity within the unity. It is a beautiful thing when my friends and I can discuss the same exact principles, and then manifest them in entirely different ways. From an All-perspective, there is no "lesser" or "greater" - they both just "are". As i stated, something is only considered that, due to its polarity in the moment. One moment i may be the "teacher" with my friend, and the next, they might be to me. We do not deny the student/teacher - lesser/greater idea, but rather embrace it for what it is, and recognize it for its utter One/none-ness. I respect the paths other people take. But i believe that even there are multiple ways to connect point A to point B, there is only ONE way to join them in the least distance.

This All perspective, there is always lesser and greater. Because light can only choose to illuminate parts of all. Dualism will show you the the parts with light and the parts with dark. It's perfectly clear now why religions has this dualist concept of good and evil and you only have to choose one side and eliminate one side. For if you do this, One will be the All.


Religions exist to express a people's version of approaching the All/One God and creating a relationship with it, individually and as a collective. Alchemy is the science of Spirit and Matter, combined and together. As Above, So Below, as Within, so Without. There is only division when there is imbalance within the individual or groups creating the division. Even this, on a All-scale, balances out. Yin and Yang act on each other, but are both actually One at the same time. :)As above, so below, as within, so without. For this to be possible, the 2 sides has to be the same nature. Yin and yang is two, but gives you the illusion that it is one. They are not One. Coexistence implies that there is composition/mixture and this is not pure.

The Highest Consciousness is the Consciousness of God. He is One. To attain One, one must be One. But yet again, probably the demiurge made it difficult for this to be realized. For he thought made matter perfectly. But I wouldn't wonder coz matter was made as an attempt to know/be God. But see, the demiurge is not God so he made it with imperfection and gave it attributes such that the Spirit would be taught that matter is essential for its existence.


Considering Christ is your go-to example, im afraid i dont see where this above quote even falls into place - Christ took his material body with Him. Matter isnt evil, no more than Spirit is evil. Spirit, infact, dictates to the matter, how it will form, how it will interact, how it will be. The two are nothing more than faces of the same Coin - one just penetrates into, outside of, and came before, the other. But that doesnt make the other any less important or relevant. If it were so, matter would not exist in the first place. ;)The Word/Christ became flesh to be human and share his humanity with us. For Him to atone us, he has to be with us. But since Christ is also divine, his humanity was taught to be free from sin. Why is this so? This is for his divinity and humanity to be consistent.

This is the Orthodox dogma. But there are esoteric Christians who believe that His humanity is just an illusion and he is perfectly divine.

And to my benefit, I would fuse both sides and think that Christ previously had humanity and his humanity was destroyed and became illusion when he died on the cross, became fully divine since then.

Science teach us that matter is eternal, cannot be created or destroyed. For it is said for people to believe that it is the basis of reality. It is also said for alchemists to believe that it is coexisting with Spirit.

But I would say that it is said for the Spirit to be perpetually trapped in Matter. There are alchemists who wanted this to be. And there are alchemists who don't want this to be.


I do not recognize an attempt to "break free from matter" - but rather, to evolve matter and spirit, what we call "transmutation."
As for copper, or any lab work for that matter, to be considered crude vs the written expression... the written expression is still matter. It is pen, it is paper, pigment and fiber, it is thought in the brain, which is bio-electrical, energy = matter.
No, i think you misread. The allegorical descriptions appeals to the Spirit. It is painted in much stark contrast with what happens in matter. Of course, the pen, paper is matter but i would not agree that what goes on the brain is matter.


Can you not see the beauty in both art and practice? To have thought without the practical application/practice is merely base speculation and what is known as "armchair philosophy." To have base practice without divine art, is a dead-ritual/science we call chemistry.
The two, together in unison, make the Royal Art of Alchemy - the God Science. Alchemy doesn't only happen in the lab. It is just a microcosm of all. Life experiences is alchemy. What you synthesize out of other idea is alchemy. Of course attempting to transmute something to gold is alchemy. But see, Spiritual alchemy can exist without practical alchemy. And practical alchemy can exist without Spiritual alchemy, but it will be called chemistry, the transformation of matter. The ideal alchemist is at first tries to synth gold from lab, then he finds out that his soul transformed, then he abandons practical alchemy because he already knows the secret because what he saw in practical alchemy were not only the physical changes but also the changes that happens in him. And because of that, he can now perform alchemy from within, without the DEPENDENCE on material chemical reactions.


You talk about matter creating limitations for the Spirit, but by you determining that a harmonious union is "impossible" means you have created a limitation yourself, considering others, such as Christ, did pull off such a thing. At this present moment, you may not can see the beauty of the union - that doesnt make it impossible, except for you at this moment. Harmonious union takes place if they can be eternally harmonious. For what the demiurge tells you that matter is eternal is not true. It was created and it can be destroyed. Spirit is eternal. There could be a union, but it is temporary, thus harmonious union is not possible. Not to mention, that they are not of the same nature. See, there won't be a union. But coexistence, sure. And for me, temporary coexistence.

Union of matter and spirit is impossible for they won't be one.


Time is ouroboral, it only seems linear, and ending, due to your placement within the ouroboros (a single scale on the snake). Ouroboros is a cycle of life and death. Birth and rebirth. It signifies that our souls are trapped. And alchemists of the past wanted to liberate themselves from this.


I dont know how many trekkies we have that will appreciate this, but here it goes: For the whole "making them like Him", in the manner youre describing... no thanks, i wont be assimilated. ;) No problem, as I've said, We walk our own paths. Just throwing this just like Jesus throws the mustard seed. But that doesn't mean that the seed is not planted. For sure, this idea is in your head now and there are forces within it are fighting/struggling against this atm. ^_^


The whole "Bride and Bridegroom" thing is far more appealing - to be the piece that i am, with no illusions about its limit, and yet unlimitedness, as both a micro part of the macro, and an individual macro to my own micro of influence. Same thing. The Bride and Bridegroom is Sophia and the Christ. Your are Sophia, for you went out of pleroma to know God from the outside (matter). But Christ brings you inside the pleroma, to know the God, the Father, the One.


If it were benevolence, it would allow the crop to ripen before attempting a harvest. People must be initiated by the Spirit, as they are ready/able. It cannot be forced upon them. Intellectual knowledge does not equate to real understanding, wisdom, or growth. It cant (as is demonstrated time and time again) be "said" or "told" and them just "get it" and be on that level. If it could be, it would, but all people are gonna get, is what they are able to receive, and people do not all grow at the same rate, or in the same direction. It all goes as it should, when it should, because it should. But time will end. There won't be any time for the crops to harvest. For everything harvested will ripen on its own.


Just like caring for a plant, the principles of care and growth are the same - all of their life-escenses are the same life-energy/soul, but each one is special, and grows differently, and has different requirements. The All/One knows this, and has things in place to grow them as its time. Maybe some take multiple life-times, maybe some take one, maybe some have fun after the "last one", and keep popping up as new sprouts, so they can keep watching the global progress. Its all about life and its relationship with its various selves. Thus you are trapped in the world of changes. You are in perpetual cycle of birth and rebirth and transmutations. There is only one path, lead to gold. Perfection is linear. So if you say that we're in a cycle, you would be OK with the idea that from lead to gold, it would be OK to go from gold to lead. You already know this. There should be an end after attaining perfection. Even the Buddhists say it is ideal to escape samsara.


LOL no, no, no. I was not at all implying that you were a satanist - i was merely giving an example of someone that would generally be opposite polarity of me, still being able to co-exist and grow with me, due to the benevolence of allowing their being to exist and grow.
I very well understand the concept of "in the beginning was shadow-eternal." ;)
I was not demonizing the One/All/None in anyway. :)^_^.


Picture yourself in total bliss...at one with everything...all knowing...in this state eternally.

Now picture yourself sitting out on a veranda warmed by the morning sun, birds flitting amongst the flowers
and shrubs around you, greeting you with their morning song. On the table in front of you your breakfast
beckons you to partake and all the while you wonder what this day has in store for you...

From which would you seek salvation?

They do say that the Angels envy man!

If you're with the Oneness, there won't be a prison encasing you. But you would argue that you become the Prison and all of the Creation will be prisoners. You will now be the warden, with command of everything. You'll be One with God, thus confirming what has been said in Genesis - "Image and likeness of God". But you're not the demiurge. You're not a tyrant. That is you have benevolence. This is why we are told by the adepts/prophets to do good and be in the side of the good, for this has a divine purpose. Your benevolence will make you liberate the Spirit(s) of Creation and be One with God too. Thus All is One will be literally realized.

But if you are not benevolent, you will be the warden lording over the creation. You will be the tyrant. It would be One is over all, not One is All.

You then become the demiurge, the lord of this world.

I pictured myself sitting out on a veranda. This uncertainty certainly puts me in a state of fear and ignorance, alongside the fact that im surrounded by the prison of Creation.

I keep on talking about this Messianic will, making it look like The Spirit of Christ will snatch your Spirit from your material bodies and put them in God's place. Well this could be happening at the moment Spiritually but let's just say that this could be just people planting the seeds and let those seeds grow inside you.

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 09:04 PM
well, for my part i would advise against the idea that spirit is trapped or imprisoned in matter... i see, and all i see are agreements. spirit threads agree to collaborate and this union makes spirit string. spirit strings agree/attract/love one another and become spirit yarn. spirit yarns become spirit rope... and next thing you know we're calling it atoms, particles, dna, etc. there's just one substance as alchemy teaches. to divide it and imagine it is at war with itself produces the appearance of being stuck, but this is simply partial knowledge instead of whole knowledge of the one. stuck is an agreement, and therefore not really stuck. learning to dissolve poor or partial or 'imperfect' agreements is part of alchemy. but there is no fixed perfection that doesn't begin to be lacking after aeons... thus spirit will always long for materialisation and matter will long for spiritualisation... this is the engine of alchemy... it is happening in infinite different times/speeds/frequencies simultaneously...

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 09:25 PM
...if you want to be 'free' from 'matter', just go to a part of the spectrum where it appears that way. if you want everyone else to agree with you, or believe this is the truth, that could be called evil. there's lots of ways to interpret gnosticism. one has to experience what an aeon, an archon, the demiurge, the pleroma... are. it's not a dogma to be preached or forced on others. that doesn't make gnosis.
(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty." i've always understood this to mean the opposite of what you're saying, glen. it would be a wonder of wonders if spirit were matters slave, esp if you believe in linear perfection.

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 09:40 PM
when one perceives a more encompassing dimension than the linear, everywhere is perfect in the ouroboros and there isn't even a source or point of origin to begin linearity from. matter might as well be the source of everything... one arbitrary point in infinity is as good as any other. but linearly, people usually agree that spirit preexists matter, thus jesus says it would be a wonder of wonders if spirit came from such poverty, from matter. it seems gnostic jesus employed sarcasm. :)

Seth-Ra
02-16-2013, 10:00 PM
the teachings of the Christ in his first Coming was thrown like a mustard seed to the ground. There were people who received it and there were people who didn't. This is perfectly valid for He was human and divine. He respected humanity's free will for he was one of them. His humanity expired when He died.

In his Second Coming, he will return as Purely Divine/Spirit. Salvation will be given to all, because of benevolence. You may view it as "forced" or "enslaving" but I wonder why "forced goodness" has still a negative connotation. You must be in the other end of polarity if you view this "forced goodness" as "bad".

Because anything forced as such, is not good. God does not dare put his foot on the back of my neck and demand i become one his borg - and facilitate such a thing. That would violate His/Her/Its very agreements/laws/principles of the perfect order that exists.

The arrogance of the magician, no matter what title it flies by, including "messiah", is iconic meaning of "MY (I - ego) will be done!"

Whereas the seer smiles, and sits back saying "Thine/The/All-One's will be done." - for that IS the will being done, always, and now. It sees the value in growing people, in growing creation, and so its set up to allow it and smile on it.

As for my polarity - it sides with what IS, for the All/One said "I AM." :cool:


Free will expires when humanity/your material self expires. Illusion will be of the Hand of God until it ends and you're united with the fullness. Comparing still to the processes of material transmutation won't be true now. Only the benevolence of God plays.

Where is it written that free will expires? Angels and demons, being the same things, but of different polarity, have free will - Lucifer demonstrated that, and they were born of fire/spirit - whereas humans were born of earth/matter (so it is said Lucifer didnt want to bow to an inferior creation - his own arrogance and pride, and his own free choice.)


I respect the paths other people take. But i believe that even there are multiple ways to connect point A to point B, there is only ONE way to join them in the least distance.

And ALL the stories and books and adept-writings that talk about doing it quickly, or via a "Dry Way", also spell out the potential for massive disaster. Not everyone can handle such, and its torture to force them to endure it.
Its not about doing it quickly, or doing it first. Life is not a race, its a journey, and an experience, and a massive relationship made up of infinite smaller ones.


This All perspective, there is always lesser and greater. Because light can only choose to illuminate parts of all. Dualism will show you the the parts with light and the parts with dark. It's perfectly clear now why religions has this dualist concept of good and evil and you only have to choose one side and eliminate one side. For if you do this, One will be the All.

As above, so below, as within, so without. For this to be possible, the 2 sides has to be the same nature. Yin and yang is two, but gives you the illusion that it is one. They are not One. Coexistence implies that there is composition/mixture and this is not pure.

All is Light. Some appears brighter at one time, and some appears darker at another time. But All is illuminated, when you stop darkening your perception to it.

Yin and Yang are distinct manifestations, of the same energy/Life - and both carries the seed for the other. They are mixed, cause they are together, and it is pure when it is manifested in a perfectly balanced manner.
Just like the Elements, the Principles. etc


The Highest Consciousness is the Consciousness of God. He is One. To attain One, one must be One. But yet again, probably the demiurge made it difficult for this to be realized. For he thought made matter perfectly. But I wouldn't wonder coz matter was made as an attempt to know/be God. But see, the demiurge is not God so he made it with imperfection and gave it attributes such that the Spirit would be taught that matter is essential for its existence.

Im afraid i dont buy into the idea of a demiurge. Its a dualistic concept (like the devil) that is fraught with inconsistencies.

The Morning Star is the Morning Star (im referencing Isaiah and Revelation), just as the "lion roaming the earth, seeking who he may devour" is still a lion just like the "lion of the Tribe of Judah" - same force, different polarity, but still part of, and together with, the whole of the One.

No Judas, means no crucifixion, means no sacrifice/salvation.

Its as simple as this: Spirit IS. Matter IS. They are One. They can be separated in order to "purify/rectify/grow" them, and recombine them perfectly - this is the point of our spagyric art. One does not separate a Sulphur, and call it perfect without its body.


The Word/Christ became flesh to be human and share his humanity with us. For Him to atone us, he has to be with us. But since Christ is also divine, his humanity was taught to be free from sin. Why is this so? This is for his divinity and humanity to be consistent.

This is the Orthodox dogma. But there are esoteric Christians who believe that His humanity is just an illusion and he is perfectly divine.

And to my benefit, I would fuse both sides and think that Christ previously had humanity and his humanity was destroyed and became illusion when he died on the cross, became fully divine since then.

Yet, after his death, his body went with Him - the matter was part of Him still. There was no corpse, and He ate and drank and talked with His disciples until the last ascension - where His body still went with Him. He had an All/One perspective and practice - not a broken, fighting, dualistic one.


Science teach us that matter is eternal, cannot be created or destroyed. For it is said for people to believe that it is the basis of reality. It is also said for alchemists to believe that it is coexisting with Spirit.

But I would say that it is said for the Spirit to be perpetually trapped in Matter. There are alchemists who wanted this to be. And there are alchemists who don't want this to be.

You are telling more about yourself, rather than what IS as a Whole/All-One.


No, i think you misread. The allegorical descriptions appeals to the Spirit. It is painted in much stark contrast with what happens in matter.

No, i didnt misread at all. :)

It isnt in star contrast to what happens in matter - but i can understand why you would think it does, if you have never put your hand to the plow, literally, rather than just vicariously in your mind. :)


Of course, the pen, paper is matter but i would not agree that what goes on the brain is matter.

Then i would recommend neuroscience. :)

Life is not solely spirit, or solely matter. It IS both, simultaneously.


Alchemy doesn't only happen in the lab. It is just a microcosm of all. Life experiences is alchemy. What you synthesize out of other idea is alchemy. Of course attempting to transmute something to gold is alchemy. But see, Spiritual alchemy can exist without practical alchemy. And practical alchemy can exist without Spiritual alchemy, but it will be called chemistry, the transformation of matter.

I never said that it ONLY happened in the lab. Your being is also the lab, yes.
But no, Spiritual cannot be without Practical - because its not lived.
Practical cannot be without Spiritual, cause it wont progress.

When people try to split them and do them like this, they both get nothing. Would-be-spiritualists that cannot, and will not, do anything than talk. Chemists that dont do anything but move material components around.
Chemistry is not Alchemy - its what happens when the people focus on the physical.
Religion/Philosophy itself (as thought/idea) is not Alchemy - its what happens when people shun the reality around them, thinking their minds have a better thought than what the Whole does.


The ideal alchemist is at first tries to synth gold from lab, then he finds out that his soul transformed, then he abandons practical alchemy because he already knows the secret because what he saw in practical alchemy were not only the physical changes but also the changes that happens in him. And because of that, he can now perform alchemy from within, without the DEPENDENCE on material chemical reactions.

There is no abandoning by an Alchemist, as that would be willfully being ignorant (ignorant = ignoring Truth) of whats around them, and what they are.
There is no dependence, there is, however, a loving union and relationship.
Solomon Levi said it best, that they are lovers. Tis true.


Harmonious union takes place if they can be eternally harmonious. For what the demiurge tells you that matter is eternal is not true. It was created and it can be destroyed. Spirit is eternal. There could be a union, but it is temporary, thus harmonious union is not possible. Not to mention, that they are not of the same nature. See, there won't be a union. But coexistence, sure. And for me, temporary coexistence.

Union of matter and spirit is impossible for they won't be one.

But they are One, and they are eternal, and have been since they both were manifest from the Nothing.


Ouroboros is a cycle of life and death. Birth and rebirth. It signifies that our souls are trapped. And alchemists of the past wanted to liberate themselves from this.

Not everyone wants to liberate from the cycle - some enjoy the cycle, enjoy the experience, the watching, the growing, the learning. Its not an illusion, its very real, its just malleable and beautiful.


No problem, as I've said, We walk our own paths. Just throwing this just like Jesus throws the mustard seed. But that doesn't mean that the seed is not planted. For sure, this idea is in your head now and there are forces within it are fighting/struggling against this atm. ^_^

lol Nah, there is honestly nothing to fight or struggle against. Its very simple, as I and the other are pointing out. :)


Same thing. The Bride and Bridegroom is Sophia and the Christ. Your are Sophia, for you went out of pleroma to know God from the outside (matter). But Christ brings you inside the pleroma, to know the God, the Father, the One.

There is no going outside of the pleroma - to go outside of God/All/One's being/fullness. The very notion is an illusions/lie. How can you leave that which is eternal, or ALL encompassing? ;)
As far as esoteric sayings go, "The Kingdom of Heaven is here."


But time will end. There won't be any time for the crops to harvest. For everything harvested will ripen on its own.

Again, youre telling of yourself (the I) not the All.


Thus you are trapped in the world of changes. You are in perpetual cycle of birth and rebirth and transmutations. There is only one path, lead to gold. Perfection is linear. So if you say that we're in a cycle, you would be OK with the idea that from lead to gold, it would be OK to go from gold to lead. You already know this. There should be an end after attaining perfection. Even the Buddhists say it is ideal to escape samsara.

The power of the Stone itself, is change. Its not a trap.
Transmutation is not linear, just as your needs are not linear. The very Azoth of the Philosophers is circular ( http://ouroboroscycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/AzothNew.jpg ) - because the Stone's purpose is to be used in the rest of the creation.
From "lead" the Stone is made, and to "lead" it returns to help.
In music, "Do" is the first, and "Do" is last - on a higher scale.


If you're with the Oneness, there won't be a prison encasing you. But you would argue that you become the Prison and all of the Creation will be prisoners. You will now be the warden, with command of everything. You'll be One with God, thus confirming what has been said in Genesis - "Image and likeness of God". But you're not the demiurge. You're not a tyrant. That is you have benevolence. This is why we are told by the adepts/prophets to do good and be in the side of the good, for this has a divine purpose. Your benevolence will make you liberate the Spirit(s) of Creation and be One with God too. Thus All is One will be literally realized.

But if you are not benevolent, you will be the warden lording over the creation. You will be the tyrant. It would be One is over all, not One is All.

You then become the demiurge, the lord of this world.

There is no prison, as creation is ever expanding and growing. Again, more telling of yourself...


I pictured myself sitting out on a veranda. This uncertainty certainly puts me in a state of fear and ignorance, alongside the fact that im surrounded by the prison of Creation.

More telling of yourself...


I keep on talking about this Messianic will, making it look like The Spirit of Christ will snatch your Spirit from your material bodies and put them in God's place. Well this could be happening at the moment Spiritually but let's just say that this could be just people planting the seeds and let those seeds grow inside you.

Such a "seed" will not grow in Alchemically-enhanced soil. :)

It may in some other soil, fertile for such a thing, but luckily itll be balanced in the whole of things - so the seers will keep watching.


Ghislain,

Id pick both those options at once. :)





~Seth-Ra

glenerson
02-16-2013, 10:13 PM
Solomon,

If you believe that you're in part of truth, you have to share the Truth to others so they would be enlightened, like you. And you have to tell others to enlighten everyone for everyone to be like you.

Secrecy has a purpose. That is to know the Ultimate truth is. For Truth is like a pearl. It is hidden in the Shell. Once the shell is opened, everybody will know of the pearl's existence.

If the Ultimate Truth is known and only a few people choose to manipulate it, it is sinister. For that this group of people will use it to Lord over people's ignorance. It is also equally selfish. It is morally wrong especially if they believe that they have to be harmonious with all. Moreover it is not benevolent.

For if you spread gnosis, you spread the light. You will eliminate ignorance.

As they said, Truth will always come out on itself. I don't claim that what I'm saying is the Truth. I'm just telling You things that might be the Truth. And if what I'm telling is indeed the Truth, then it will be known.

These Gnostic terminologies I used for I felt them and it jived and gave deeper meaning with my Orthodox/Roman Catholic beliefs. Remember that in the past, Valentinian Gnostics were Christians and Gnosticism away from Christian light is not true Gnosticism. One has to be Christian to understand Gnosticism and then understand again Christianity. Gnosticism in different interpretation won't be Gnosticism.

Solomon, the ouroboros was linear until the Alpha and Omega became One. This it represented perpetuity of cycle. But if we have the ability to be the Creator, we could manipulate this such that Alpha and Omega will be distinct points again. This is why the alchemists always prescribed transmutation from lead to gold. From point A to point B. Beginning to end. imperfection to perfection. And we have to be perfect and end it that way for we will be perpetually perfect. Gold will be perpetually gold and won't go back to the cycle of going back to lead again. What will be the purpose of life if you go to perfection and we go to imperfection again? This will just mean that there won't be permanent perfection for it will devolve to imperfection again. Linearity and endings have reason, to achieve to be perfect and end it and be always be perfect.

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

He is not saying that it would be wonderful or a miracle if matter bears spirit. For he equated Spirit as great wealth and flesh/body/matter as poverty. Yes, he vilified the flesh. Sarcasm indeed.

glenerson
02-16-2013, 11:03 PM
Because anything forced as such, is not good. God does not dare put his foot on the back of my neck and demand i become one his borg - and facilitate such a thing. That would violate His/Her/Its very agreements/laws/principles of the perfect order that exists.

The arrogance of the magician, no matter what title it flies by, including "messiah", is iconic meaning of "MY (I - ego) will be done!"

Whereas the seer smiles, and sits back saying "Thine/The/All-One's will be done." - for that IS the will being done, always, and now. It sees the value in growing people, in growing creation, and so its set up to allow it and smile on it.

As for my polarity - it sides with what IS, for the All/One said "I AM." :cool:
Do you think that your existence is not forced? I would argue that you were forced to be here on existence to play the part that you play, since you weren't in full control of your existence. So based on your vilification of "being forced", then prolly material existence is not good?


Where is it written that free will expires? Angels and demons, being the same things, but of different polarity, have free will - Lucifer demonstrated that, and they were born of fire/spirit - whereas humans were born of earth/matter (so it is said Lucifer didnt want to bow to an inferior creation - his own arrogance and pride, and his own free choice.)Free will existed along side the creation of the world, the creation of matter and everything. Remember that the angels and demons were created beings too, thus endowed with free will. It is created alongside with the creation of humans for it played with their taste of the fruit of knowledge and still plays up to now. Before creation, there was only one will, the Will of God. And if you liberate from matter, your free-will will point to the Only Will, the Will of God.


And ALL the stories and books and adept-writings that talk about doing it quickly, or via a "Dry Way", also spell out the potential for massive disaster. Not everyone can handle such, and its torture to force them to endure it. Are you skeptical that those who do it quickly cannot pull it off? Efficiency will lead you there fast. But I won't say it's useless to do it taking your time, for it will make your diary more verbose. But point A to point B is point A to Point B. The one who has fastest and most efficient way to do it is certainly not frowned upon.


Its not about doing it quickly, or doing it first. Life is not a race, its a journey, and an experience, and a massive relationship made up of infinite smaller ones. it was an allegory of Truths. That even we have many truths (multiple ways to connect), there will always be the Truth (the shortest distance)


All is Light. Some appears brighter at one time, and some appears darker at another time. But All is illuminated, when you stop darkening your perception to it.

Yin and Yang are distinct manifestations, of the same energy/Life - and both carries the seed for the other. They are mixed, cause they are together, and it is pure when it is manifested in a perfectly balanced manner.
Just like the Elements, the Principles. etcBut the Tao is one. The Monad is One. Everything is on top of Hydrogen, which is One. So on top of everything, there is only One Being, One Truth, One Will.


Im afraid i dont buy into the idea of a demiurge. Its a dualistic concept (like the devil) that is fraught with inconsistencies.
Demiurge is the Creation of Sophia, which created matter. He exists temporarily for Sophia to know God (the Father).

Demiurge, being the creator of matter, is the lord of this (material) world.


The Morning Star is the Morning Star (im referencing Isaiah and Revelation), just as the "lion roaming the earth, seeking who he may devour" is still a lion just like the "lion of the Tribe of Judah" - same force, different polarity, but still part of, and together with, the whole of the One.

These are veiled words. Just like Luna = Monday = Silver. It will help the alchemist to see if it is one of the keyword imprinted in his Soul.


Yet, after his death, his body went with Him - the matter was part of Him still. There was no corpse, and He ate and drank and talked with His disciples until the last ascension - where His body still went with Him. He had an All/One perspective and practice - not a broken, fighting, dualistic one.This can't be. The Christ with matter in himself cannot go inside the Pleroma, for they won't be the same Substance. But if his material body became an illusion after he died, then he is purely divine, it will appear to you that matter went to the Pleroma, but in essence its his pure divinity which is the same substance with the Pleroma went inside it.


You are telling more about yourself, rather than what IS as a Whole/All-One.
Yes, for I am also is part of the whole. I don't mean any arrogance here.


No, i didnt misread at all. :)

It isn't in star contrast to what happens in matter - but i can understand why you would think it does, if you have never put your hand to the plow, literally, rather than just vicariously in your mind. :)

Then i would recommend neuroscience. :)
So what is your definition of Spirit? if you are limiting your mind by forcing it to adhere to neuroscience, how do you access the Spirit? Electricity? Energy? Frequency? For E=mc2, Energy is still matter. for sure this is not what the adepts meant when they were talking about Spirit.


Life is not solely spirit, or solely matter. It IS both, simultaneously.
it is both yes. But in life, you will get the will to do something like "what if i liberate myself from matter?" or "i must liberate myself from matter".


I never said that it ONLY happened in the lab. Your being is also the lab, yes.
But no, Spiritual cannot be without Practical - because its not lived.
Practical cannot be without Spiritual, cause it wont progress.

When people try to split them and do them like this, they both get nothing. Would-be-spiritualists that cannot, and will not, do anything than talk. Chemists that dont do anything but move material components around.
Chemistry is not Alchemy - its what happens when the people focus on the physical.
Religion/Philosophy itself (as thought/idea) is not Alchemy - its what happens when people shun the reality around them, thinking their minds have a better thought than what the Whole does.
Because some define the whole not as a jigsaw puzzle whole, but a Pure whole after transforming the impurities that exist with other one. the analogy would be lead is matter and gold is spirit. Why would an alchemist transmute matter to spirit? For everything to be Spirit. For everything to be pure. For everything would be gold. For the alchemist is endowed by God the ability to transmute, for he could change something to another thing. So he could change lead to gold and be gold. So he could change lead to gold and the mixture will be pure gold. So he could change matter to Spirit, to liberate himself from matter.


There is no abandoning by an Alchemist, as that would be willfully being ignorant (ignorant = ignoring Truth) of whats around them, and what they are.
There is no dependence, there is, however, a loving union and relationship.
That's why were given the ability to transmute, so that we could change things around us, not just forcing ourselves to be part of a whole and rationalizing our existence to be grand by finding the "harmony". We could "transmute" everything to be like us.


But they are One, and they are eternal, and have been since they both were manifest from the Nothing.
Only Eternal is God, which is not of matter but of Spirit.


Not everyone wants to liberate from the cycle - some enjoy the cycle, enjoy the experience, the watching, the growing, the learning. Its not an illusion, its very real, its just malleable and beautiful.
but not everyone wants to be inside the cycle. For sure, the Spirit would want to liberate from matter.


There is no going outside of the pleroma - to go outside of God/All/One's being/fullness. The very notion is an illusions/lie. How can you leave that which is eternal, or ALL encompassing? ;)
As far as esoteric sayings go, "The Kingdom of Heaven is here."
There is, for it will be a way to know that the One is the One, inside and out.

The esoteric told us, "The Kingdom of Heaven is in and outside of you." How would you know this? If you are inside and gone outside the Kingdom of heaven, of course.


Again, youre telling of yourself (the I) not the All.
As I've said, for I'm a part of All.


The power of the Stone itself, is change. Its not a trap.
Transmutation is not linear, just as your needs are not linear. The very Azoth of the Philosophers is circular ( http://ouroboroscycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/AzothNew.jpg ) - because the Stone's purpose is to be used in the rest of the creation.
From "lead" the Stone is made, and to "lead" it returns to help.
In music, "Do" is the first, and "Do" is last - on a higher scale.

If a cycle repeats itself, it will give us the impression that it is linear. that we go from A to B then A to B then A to B. A to B repeats but the source and destination is just A to B, linear.


There is no prison, as creation is ever expanding and growing. Again, more telling of yourself...

I don't know why you're keeping on telling me that "i tell more of myself". Do you think im being arrogant?


More telling of yourself...
:)


Such a "seed" will not grow in Alchemically-enhanced soil. :)

It may in some other soil, fertile for such a thing, but luckily itll be balanced in the whole of things - so the seers will keep watching.

You're are so sure that you're standing on is the "Anointed soil of the Alchemists." ^_^. Let's just see then. The adepts are just around us anyway.

solomon levi
02-16-2013, 11:33 PM
hi glenerson. i appreciate the discussion. :)
1 i dont act on my beliefs. i dont believe in my beliefs. :) i just notice them. belief or knowledge are not gnosis. gnosis is direct perception. spirit has not implanted the impulse to tell everyone, but i do magnetise people of similar interests and share. 'helping' when it isn't asked for is not helping. i respect others as equals. 'ask and it shall be given'. the invitation/agreement is significant. if you try to force others, no matter your intentions, you invite things to force you. the golden rule is basic christianity.
2 in an ouroboros there is no ultimate. i do see relatively more and less objectivity usually, but a more ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth. in the ouroboros there is always above and below... in trigrams man is always between heaven and earth. its fractal.
3 yes, we are selfish, as i said. only the One is unselfish. we dont exist for unselfishness. who says that's ideal? jesus said, why call me good? no one is good ....

Seth-Ra
02-16-2013, 11:54 PM
You are right about you being a part of the Whole - thats where your view is. That is my point. Its not Whole, its fractured/parted - dual. That is what we are expressing in the replies. Remove your fractured view from the equation - see the Whole, and it all simply IS, and is perfect in its balanced being.

You keep talking about making people see like you - even now, you cannot see what is being presented to you, but think that people can still be forced to seeing. Yes, that is arrogance of a type. Im not saying its intentional - its pretty common actually, in the beginning atleast. I believe Sol mentioned that earlier - at the first taste of part of the Truth.

Those who dont want to be part of the cycle, wont be. They'll find their way. We are in the image and likeness - we have a divine Spirit that will guide us, we dont need a savior more than what we have.

We are responsible for being here - our Spirit chose to manifest here, we may have forgotten why, or we may be distracted by things down here at any given moment - but its our choice.

There is no existing outside of God/All/One - if there was, it wouldnt be ALL as One.

The Will of the One is not some strict-"ONE" thought, but rather, All, working towards a never ending progression and understanding/expression of its self/selves.

About the neuroscience thing - Spirit is the most subtle, and conscious, the deeper-inner-connectedness of it all, and whatever plane/vibration your one, it will have a form/vehicle/body - which is gonna be "matter" in some form or fashion.
Yes, it was what the adepts wrote about - the Quintessence, the Spirit, being apart from our physical matter-perception (being subtler forms also), and also being a part of them all too.

I never said people who do it quickly cant pull it off. I said that its not right for everyone. The destination is a moment on the cycle - its about the relationship and the growing. If some were able to be forced into it, it could damage them rather than help them - a sorta shock, or burning up of to much divine fire at once.
Kundalini can paralyze or kill, as well as heal and enlighten.
Labs can have slips and explode destroying anyone in the room, or even the area, depending.

Haste makes waste, more often then not. To one that has grown it first, it can be more quickly attained for they are perfectly capable of it. But for someone who is far from the thought, plunging head-first can be detrimental.

Yes, im aware of what the demiurge, sophia, etc etc is.
Its fractal, and irrelevant.


As i said, you are not seeing what is being presented, cause you only see a fractal side, and a war with anything other than it.
Thats why i said "more telling of yourself" - not that you are necessarily arrogant (i dont believe you are), im not attacking you - im saying its telling of where you are, of the fractal side youre seeing and presenting. Im not saying its bad - its a piece.
Im saying its not the only piece.



You're are so sure that you're standing on is the "Anointed soil of the Alchemists." ^_^. Let's just see then. The adepts are just around us anyway.

Indeed, i am sure, and indeed, we are around anyway. :)

Everything has been said, thats needed. I will leave you to continue growing, as we all continue to do so. :)




~Seth-Ra

glenerson
02-17-2013, 12:00 AM
hi glenerson. i appreciate the discussion. :)
1 i dont act on my beliefs. i dont believe in my beliefs. :) i just notice them. belief or knowledge are not gnosis. gnosis is direct perception. spirit has not implanted the impulse to tell everyone, but i do magnetise people of similar interests and share. 'helping' when it isn't asked for is not helping. i respect others as equals. 'ask and it shall be given'. the invitation/agreement is significant. if you try to force others, no matter your intentions, you invite things to force you. the golden rule is basic christianity.
2 in an ouroboros there is no ultimate. i do see relatively more and less objectivity usually, but a more ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth. in the ouroboros there is always above and below... in trigrams man is always between heaven and earth. its fractal.
3 yes, we are selfish, as i said. only the One is unselfish. we dont exist for unselfishness. who says that's ideal? jesus said, why call me good? no one is good ....

1.) It would appear that I'm imposing what I'm saying. I'm not. But I want to share the knowledge that I have gotten from my life experiences and my experiments that i did and my insights that were revealed to me. I would not want it to be secret, for if just in case that what I know is the Truth, then it would be evil of me not to share this Truth to others. Sharing is for sure Christian. This is not forced indoctrination. But I'm sure if we're both attuned and in the same "frequency", I'm pretty sure that you'll feel what I feel by just reading these words. :D

3.) If the One is unselfish, so that means we should be unselfish to be LIKE the One?

Regards

solomon levi
02-17-2013, 12:07 AM
...no one is good except god alone. luke 18:19
we are the lights in the darkness, the conscious in the unconscious, the subjective in the objective, the selfish in the unselfish... i'm ok with that. it doesn't make me a bad person. god doesn't want me to be moral... god wants me to be all.
3 gnosis isn't spread by mouth. gnosis and initiation go hand in hand. sure, i'll spread a good message on facebook... that's not gnosis. imo people don't need more knowledge... they need the absence of knowledge... that would be gnosis. knowledge and matter are the same tree, same garden. from what you've said about destroying matter, it would be consistent to destroy knowledge, not spread it.
glad to hear you're not claiming the truth. have you ever considered that freedom is to be without conclusions, absolutes, certainties...? if thought/mind does not rest on a conclusion, it is free, unknown, potential...
4 some gnostics hate the flesh, but you can't become a christ without it... so which is it? hate what ...

glenerson
02-17-2013, 12:12 AM
You are right about you being a part of the Whole - thats where your view is. That is my point. Its not Whole, its fractured/parted - dual. That is what we are expressing in the replies. Remove your fractured view from the equation - see the Whole, and it all simply IS, and is perfect in its balanced being.

You keep talking about making people see like you - even now, you cannot see what is being presented to you, but think that people can still be forced to seeing. Yes, that is arrogance of a type. Im not saying its intentional - its pretty common actually, in the beginning atleast. I believe Sol mentioned that earlier - at the first taste of part of the Truth.

I wanted to be modest and not claim that I see the Whole. But if you use my modesty to imply that I don't know the Truth, then so be it. ^_^

Let's leave everything as is. For the Truth will be revealed anyway, no matter how hidden/veiled it is.

glenerson
02-17-2013, 12:26 AM
...no one is good except god alone. luke 18:19
we are the lights in the darkness, the conscious in the unconscious, the subjective in the objective, the selfish in the unselfish... i'm ok with that. it doesn't make me a bad person. god doesn't want me to be moral... god wants me to be all.
3 gnosis isn't spread by mouth. gnosis and initiation go hand in hand. sure, i'll spread a good message on facebook... that's not gnosis. imo people don't need more knowledge... they need the absence of knowledge... that would be gnosis. knowledge and matter are the same tree, same garden. from what you've said about destroying matter, it would be consistent to destroy knowledge, not spread it.
glad to hear you're not claiming the truth. have you ever considered that freedom is to be without conclusions, absolutes, certainties...? if thought/mind does not rest on a conclusion, it is free, unknown, potential...
4 some gnostics hate the flesh, but you can't become a christ without it... so which is it? hate what ...

No one is good but God alone. True, but if you're good, you will be like God.

Words are spread by mouth to ear. And words are vessels to Gnosis. Gnosis is knowledge above knowledge. These are hidden for the purpose that those with the rightful ear when they get them understand them. Their purpose, to protect the Truth, or know who the adepts are or lord over those who those know. I read in a thread here that "in the end-times, hidden secrets will be known." This is true and i attempt to involve myself in that prophecy. Valentinian Gnosticism is not mainstream. Stars are aligning and the prophecies are meeting at a certain point. It is will be in the hands of those who understand them. This is why i'm spreading it for I believe that I have a duty to do so.

I'm not claiming the Truth for that would be arrogance. But i believe the Truth will speak of itself. It is not from me. I don't want to imply that FROM ME came the Truth. I would like to think that ALL were involved in helping me attain the information that i'm imparting to you. So im just a part of ALL, and this ALL were responsible for me to know.

Flesh existed to know God from the Outside, that it is One. it is not enough to realize One if you're inside, you have to go outside to individuate that One.

solomon levi
02-17-2013, 12:49 AM
i'm writing on a ps3 and it only allows so many characters a post.
continuing... so which is it? love what makes christ possible or hate it? i agree with Seth on ascension... it includes, not excludes, the body. so christianity and gnosticism have some diffs. transmutation is diff than destruction. i have read about gnostic antimatter/heaven which destroys matter... intriguing. but they also coexist, obviously... here we are, right? jesus and i love everyone. i don't require or even desire that anyone prefer one above the other. we are all god and gods experiencing differently different frequencies of the ouroboros spectrum. no need for others to be like me... i've got that covered. :) god doesn't repeat or desire duplicates... that would not be efficient. so i share, but not to preach, except when i preach. :) i am a contradiction... but so is existence.
yes, we can manipulate AandO to be distinct points. i just don't desire to. i don't want fixed, stagnant perfection... i want living waters, ....

glenerson
02-17-2013, 01:01 AM
It appeared to included the body but in reality the body became illusion and he was fully divine. He entered the pleroma as fully divine. (Valentinian) Gnosticism is inside Christianity. There's something more inside the orthodox views. Orthodox dogmas of Christianity seem to be "impossible" to be realized (so you have to use faith) but you need the key "Gnosticism" for it to be fully known.

As they say, everyone will return to the One. I would have no problems if a brother or a sister is just like me, made in the image of God. I don't have a problem that he identically looks like me. I would be happy that they're with me, in the fullness of God. But will your sight be there if you're with the One? Will your senses be important if youre in the One? i believe that you're being with the One only matters.

For the ultimate love is to share the One, that others has the knowledge of the One, that others can be the One, just like yourself.

For claiming to know love and keeping the Truth for your own benefit is hypocrisy.

Transmutation is changing one to the other. if you transmuted lead to gold, gold only exists and lead is destroyed. if you transmuted matter to spirit, then only spirit exists and matter is destroyed.

matter and spirit coexist temporarily to know God. if God is known, matter will serve no more purpose and it is destroyed.

Seth-Ra
02-17-2013, 01:02 AM
I wanted to be modest and not claim that I see the Whole. But if you use my modesty to imply that I don't know the Truth, then so be it. ^_^

Im not implying anything other than what i explicitly said. :)


Let's leave everything as is. For the Truth will be revealed anyway, no matter how hidden/veiled it is.

Indeed. :)



~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
02-17-2013, 01:19 AM
... i like options, fluidity... someday i won't. but today it is my duty to the all to represent the entire spectrum. i like to say 'infinity excludes nothing, which includes excluding something'. that is my breadth. fixed perfection is a small part of the all. matter is another small part. i prefer no small part above another. i cannot sell that in good conscience.
he called flesh poverty and spirit wealth, but he also implies which is lord and which is slave. 'you would have no power over me if it were not given you from above.' i would say the same to matter. matter has power because we agreed from above, though we forget (i remember). i don't see any slaves or victims. we cannot change what we won't claim responsibility for. i would choose a diff strategy than yours. but one can only be strategic if one is not a believer.
gotta go to work... see you tomorrow. :)

glenerson
02-17-2013, 01:46 AM
he called poverty flesh and spirit wealth.

and you connote it that those who are rich lord over the poor. the wealthy lords over the poor? only in the material world.

I would say that this could be a relationship between those who know and the ignorant. The case that the ignorant could be a pandering tyrant lording over those who have the true riches within. The poor in spirit lording over those who are rich in spirit.

Matter is that ignorant tyrant who are lording over the Spirit. Matter is not from above, for what is from above is Good. Matter is the reason why we feel pain, certainly that is not of good. For with matter we experience suffering. For with matter we experience divide and disunity. For with matter, we see the materially rich (who are poor in spirit) lording over the materially poor (who have the true riches of the spirit.)

Sure that is not the attributes of an unselfish, all Good God.

So it is not of God.

Christ told that "Only from above that he recognizes Lordship." He was referring to God. And seeing that what happens in the material world is not with that accordance, He vilified matter. But he didn't let it as is, and didn't find "harmony." He demonstrated what to do through his Death and resurrection. This is part of the will of Christ, to accept suffering and death aka to destroy matter for he could do the Divine Will of God, the Salvation and the Union of all to Him. He was human and divine, died and became fully divine to be ascended to the pleroma and one with the father and come again as fully divine to "judge the living and the dead", as prophesied.

So it is up to us to do what he did, that is to liberate/destroy matter/what is evil. For us to be free of matter is for us to enter the pleroma, Fullness, be like the Son to know and be God.

All the alchemists in the past are theists. Jabir was a Muslim. Newton was a Christian. All invoke God before doing their experiments and thank God after, in whatever form He be.

Atheists doing alchemy will be chemists. I still have to see an atheist alchemist.

So belief in God/religion is a must. if he is not a believer, he's not an alchemist.

Anyway, have fun in work ^_^

Nibiru
02-18-2013, 12:27 AM
I find this discussion interesting, thanks for sharing!! :)

Lately I like to think of matter as a type of house built from coagulated spirit. A honeycomb would make a good analogy. The bees build the honeycomb of their own essence, for the purpose of growth, shelter, and protection. The problem is that many of us have forgotten, been tricked/forced into forgetting, or have chosen to forget that our homes are made of our own construction. Through this amnesia we have lost the keys to our shelter, and our palaces have now devolved into self-imposed prisons. All one needs to escape matter is to wake-up and realize that they are the key, the house/prison, and the spirit simultaneously. Some may see matter as a form of 'the cross' for the spirit, others as 'the thrown', and others still recognize them all as varying frequencies/densities/vibrations of the same ONE substance (or lack thereof).

That being said if ever I find a universal/skeleton key, I would be willing to share it with those who feel they are trapped. Though I don't know if offering to demolish the house would be as helpful, but it's not difficult to see how those who have been locked away too long may prefer this, even when shown a non-violent exit. I do know that I wouldn't indiscriminately destroy the house without being asked first. If offered the option myself, I would choose to use the key, but to each his own..


Even though Buddhists view the desires/attachments of the material sphere as 'Samsara', it's believed that many have chosen to stay within this plane in order to aid the others in their evolution.

Bodhisattva [ˌbəʊdɪˈsætvə -wə ˌbɒd- ˌbəʊdiːˈsʌtvə]
n
(Non-Christian Religions / Buddhism) (in Mahayana Buddhism) a divine being worthy of nirvana who remains on the human plane to help men to salvation. Compare arhat
[Sanskrit, literally: one whose essence is enlightenment, from bodhi enlightenment + sattva essence]


Not only do we seek to volatilize the fixed, but to also make fixed the volatile.

Awani
02-23-2013, 07:29 PM
MESSiah.


So belief in God/religion is a must. if he is not a believer, he's not an alchemist.

This statement is only correct according to your worldview. If the opposite path is travelled it does not equate chemistry. Only dogmatic thinking deals with black and white. Nature does not care about -isms or words. IMO.

:cool:

glenerson
02-23-2013, 08:33 PM
tell that to all the alchemists you have read about.

last time that i checked, they are all theists.

Awani
02-23-2013, 09:52 PM
People of their age, most of them also in Europe. And if you were not a Catholic or Christian between 1000-1800 you were pretty fucked.

Might as well say that a real alchemist does not use a computer because the old alchemists didn't use it.

:cool:

glenerson
02-24-2013, 01:24 AM
there were muslim alchemists. Jabir? does it ring a tune? he's not a euro.

taoist alchemists. hindu alchemists.

etc etc.

there are no atheist alchemists. if there are, im sure that they are unknowingly practicing faulty chemistry.

computers are a way to transmit information to adept diaspora. for sure the immortal alchemists dictated events for the computer age to come for there are prophecies to be fulfilled.

thrival
02-24-2013, 04:23 AM
I would chime in that anyone truly and relentlessly looking for root causes without prejudice would "discover" the Creator, because (in humans at least) it's purity and resolve that's being tested. Creation isn't smart enough to self-assemble itself. Maybe cliche to say it, but every design does have a designer. What appears to be spontaneous generation doesn't obviate life-waves from another place. It's a discovery process, if you choose to accept it.

Seth-Ra
02-24-2013, 07:59 AM
Set religions that are misconstrued with time and individuals looking for praise and followers, is not necessary for an Alchemist.

An Alchemist is a seeker of Truth. The Truth is in experience and relationship with Spirit - the All/One. Not religious dogma.

Alchemists wrote their texts, and used the understood wording and terms for the All/One of their people - those of them who followed suit with the Spirit behind the religion. Those who did not, the solitary ones, often thought of as the iconic "witches" or "heretics", depending, used terms that resonated with them. This didnt make them wrong, just different in expression.

An Alchemist does not have to start out believing in Spirit/God - but if they are searching for Truth, as an Alchemist does, then IT will reveal itself to them, in a form/manner they can understand/resonate with.


On a different, though similar note, as far as a messiah that forcefully changes everyone...
To quote the apparent slogan of the new "The Last Exorcism" movie:
God asks. The Devil commands.

:cool:



~Seth-Ra

Awani
02-24-2013, 01:32 PM
I'm not an atheist. Not black and white. I just don't like God in the religions quoted. So I guess it comes down to how we define God. Words like God, Father and Creator carry a lot of negative bullshit-baggage for me.

For me the cosmos is alive and we are all part of it. No name or book or building required, and no messiah.

IMO.

:cool:

glenerson
02-24-2013, 04:26 PM
An Alchemist does not have to start out believing in Spirit/God - but if they are searching for Truth, as an Alchemist does, then IT will reveal itself to them, in a form/manner they can understand/resonate with.




I agree. And he will discover that what he discovered in alchemy and what religions have been telling us are one and connected. For the Kingdom of God is inside (the Church/us) and outside (the Church/us). an alchemist will eventually be a theist, and he may relate to a religion that he's comfortable with.

So i don't get "alchemists" hating on religion. alchemy is spiritual quest. religions also are spiritual quest. to hate one and love another is ridiculous.

Awani
02-24-2013, 07:00 PM
Hate or love for an institution created by humans seeking control over subjects is futile. Ignoring them is the best path. Let's leave hate altogether and save love for fellow beings.

Spiritualism require no religion.

From wiki: "Religion is an organized collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values."

Belief systems = systems of belief
Culture = habits
Moral = dogma and these days hypocrisy

A messiah can't liberate us, we can only liberate ourselves. No leader, holy text, institution, person, pope or dogma can do it. They might inspire change but in the end only the Self can create the change. And even then are we even in control of that change? There are many forces at work that none alive today fully understand nor will they ever. We can only work with what we have: our consciousness. Implying this or that to it can only confuse us further, divide us further. IMO.

Now bow down and worship me!

;)

glenerson
02-24-2013, 07:30 PM
How can you liberate yourself if you don't trust that someone can help and liberate you? how can you be sure that you can do it and you're in the right path? how can you liberate yourself if you run away from those who control your lives? do you think that the days of the week and the months of the year set by the Catholic church (gregorian calendar) are just there for nothing? Do you think that the existence of religions is just to control the mentality of the masses? Do you think the morals are just to prevent crime and let a peaceful society running? For I can assure you that those morals were viewed by the mystics and ascetics as purgation of the material evils to be closer to God.

See, society is a big lab. Spirituality and religion goes hand in hand and even the Mayan spiritualists have their little organization close to religion going. not to mention the biggest reliigons in existence. Finding God in society and in religion is alchemy in macro scale.

Ignoring them make your journey incomplete.

(And i won't do a one liner mockery ending).

Awani
02-24-2013, 08:32 PM
How can you liberate yourself if you don't trust that someone can help and liberate you?

How can I trust someone else?


how can you be sure that you can do it and you're in the right path?

How can you be?


how can you liberate yourself if you run away from those who control your lives?

Only I control my life as far as human beings go, or at least I try my best to remain in control.


do you think that the days of the week and the months of the year set by the Catholic church (gregorian calendar) are just there for nothing?

I don't like the Gregorian Calendar nor do I like the Catholic Church... there are many gentle and kind catholics in the world but the Catholic Cuhrch is, IMO, pure evil.


Do you think that the existence of religions is just to control the mentality of the masses?

Yes.


Do you think the morals are just to prevent crime and let a peaceful society running? For I can assure you that those morals were viewed by the mystics and ascetics as purgation of the material evils to be closer to God.

Moral is perception.


...even the Mayan spiritualists have their little organization close to religion going. not to mention the biggest reliigons in existence.

Just because something is done by the masses doesn't make it right. People can do as they wish... but I would personally not like being part of such an institution.


Ignoring them make your journey incomplete.

Man-made institutions are not interesting, i.e. I don't focus on them anymore. It is all silly. Doesn't make my journey incomplete... quite the opposite.


(And i won't do a one liner mockery ending).

What you perceive as mockery I perceive as tongue-in-cheek. Also it is common, from personal experience, that followers of a certain religion tend to turn fundamental... and I cannot help to not take the piss out of this. Just how I roll...

My whole point really in regards to this thread is that I disagree with the Messiah concept. I don't think I can take this further. I have said all I can say. I doubt we will come in agreement as I sense an ocean between us. Not saying either is right, but I refuse to be certain.

:cool:

thrival
02-24-2013, 09:54 PM
Only I control my life as far as human beings go, or at least I try my best to remain in control.

Sure but we must admit to ourselves that statistical probabilities make that a losing battle over time, given how humans lack perfect prescience to avoid disaster. At some point you will need saving by someone or thing or you will perish, fast or slow, at least on this dimensional plain, where stuff breaks and can't always be repaired, but by some superior mechanic.


I don't like the Gregorian Calendar nor do I like the Catholic Church... there are many gentle and kind catholics in the world but the Catholic Church is, IMO, pure evil.

I know a person who was drafted into the Army and his interpretation of the US military/Basic Training was the same as yours toward the Catholic church. I found it interesting in my own research to learn that most of the Catholic faith, from the sacraments & ceremonies right down to vestments and the rosary, were lifted from Budhhism.


Moral is perception.

Well I don't quite agree with that, for example disrespect for life, wanton destruction are sinful because they waste what the person did not create. It's a violation of universal energy, albeit a common thing here on earth, to reject or abuse what one doesn't understand or value. It's a condition of willful ignorance; "I don't know, and I don't WANT to know!"


Just because something is done by the masses doesn't make it right. People can do as they wish... but I would personally not like being part of such an institution.

True enough. People seldom live up to the principles of institutions they create, much less care to learn the principles of nature or spirit. "Simon says!" ...is pretty lame. "We piped but you wouldn't dance."


Man-made institutions are not interesting, i.e. I don't focus on them anymore. It is all silly. Doesn't make my journey incomplete... quite the opposite...

What you perceive as mockery I perceive as tongue-in-cheek. Also it is common, from personal experience, that followers of a certain religion tend to turn fundamental... and I cannot help to not take the piss out of this. Just how I roll...

My whole point really in regards to this thread is that I disagree with the Messiah concept. I don't think I can take this further. I have said all I can say. I doubt we will come in agreement as I sense an ocean between us. Not saying either is right, but I refuse to be certain.


To everything there is a season, but if fundamental truths didn't exist, everything would be relative, and learning would be as meaningless as it were impossible. Certainty is OK if you use it like a ratchet, to create temporary handholds (not call it the totality.) Yes the universe is alive, but even life has a place of origin. It's also a moral universe, and understanding that is what qualifies a person for universal citizenship, vs. indefinite commitment to the insane asylum called earth. I think the "Messiah" Christ/(savior) was grossly missunderstood and His message was co-opted. He was trying to delineate a path and practice to realization, not dictate what everyone must believe. God should be big enough to suffer our honest testing, but not suffer fools gladly. That's something I always admired about Buddhists; they are students of reality and not trying to convert anyone. Everyone needs to find their own evidence, nothing less serves or satisfies.

Ghislain
02-25-2013, 01:09 AM
I must apologise if I have not read every post on this thread, but time has been my enemy.

If you are looking for a Messiah then look to yourself, and then look all around you.

Everything you are looking for is right here for there is now/here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nVGm0A6DYM) else. Call it fractal, holographic or
any other name you choose.

We tend to look for greater things outside of ourselves, when there is no outside or inside there is
just what is.

While on an Ayahuasca Journey I travelled out of this world and looked down upon it in a state of
pure bliss and realised that, for want of a better word, “I” created it, but there is no I; there is only
what is and that is everything and everyone in unison. Where is this entity? Everywhere and
nowhere at the same “time” < ;)

For those that have not tried it I suggest partaking of some E’s...after a while it becomes lacking.
That is about as close as I can describe the feeling; bliss = lacking.

Note: it was this experience that inspired the question posed in post 13, for here “I” have all the
senses...even the pain and sorrow...there I had only bliss...is that enough?

When you tell another that everything is just an illusion they will tap on something “solid” and ask if
that is an illusion...end of argument. Ask them if while they are dreaming do they sink into the
floor? If not then, going by that argument, the dream cannot be an illusion either!

Recently I took part in a Bwiti initiation ceremony and for two days I was not conscious of my
actions...for the next three days after that I was able to converse with others, but I was also
conversing with people who at that time seemed just as real to me, however I have been told they
were not there...still made some good friends :)

If you want to love a Messiah then love the world and everything in and out of it as it is just more of
the same, and first of all love yourself...the creator of your reality.

IMHO

Ghislain


Edit: Thrival, fundamental truths don’t exist, everything is relative and learning is meaningless...when looking at it all holistically.

thrival
02-25-2013, 10:26 AM
Recently I took part in a Bwiti initiation ceremony and for two days I was not conscious of my actions...for the next three days after that I was able to converse with others, but I was also conversing with people who at that time seemed just as real to me, however I have been told they were not there...still made some good friends.

Edit: Thrival, fundamental truths don’t exist, everything is relative and learning is meaningless...when looking at it all holistically.

Oh, it sounds like you were having a drug experience; you weren't conscious, so were you asleep, dreaming or something else? And then after that you were conversing with real people and entities not so real. This sounds pretty subjective so I suppose only you can place a value on said experience, but when feeling all blissed out, judgement can also be impaired. If everything is relative and learning is meaningless then nothing can be known; is that a fair statement?

Awani
02-25-2013, 11:55 AM
Calling it a drug is not fully correct.

As far as your other comments I still disagree. My points have not been understood or poorly explained (by me).

Everything is perception and direct experience!

It doesn't matter what something was based on or how good intentions were if the end result is shit it is still shit.

:cool:

thrival
02-25-2013, 05:14 PM
Dev:

I agree that from a (personal) point of view, perception and direct experience is "everything." But there's something bigger than the individual, that makes sharing those experiences and perceptions possible. That fundamental (call it existence) is very real, and there are truths behind existence. One thing I'm 100% certain of is I didn't create myself, because there are some far less technical problems I still have trouble with, than (for sake of example) say, consciously growing my hair, healing a flesh wound, or cellular repair. I am quite grateful that some benign force bigger and smarter than me, handles those things automatically, without my conscious effort, because fact is I wouldn't have a clue. And that's an experience other people might share also. So it's not all personal experience (and) perception and it's not all shared either; but it's shared experience that make any kind of agreement possible. For example, does sunrise & sunset only occur for you, or billions of other humans also?

Awani
02-25-2013, 06:09 PM
But there's something bigger than the individual, that makes sharing those experiences and perceptions possible.

How can you be sure it is not all you? Why not?


One thing I'm 100% certain of is I didn't create myself, because there are some far less technical problems I still have trouble with, than (for sake of example) say, consciously growing my hair, healing a flesh wound, or cellular repair.

Nothing is 100% certain, not even gravity.

:cool:

solomon levi
02-26-2013, 12:12 AM
It is my experience that these bigger pictures are still you. That is the process of unfolding.
The you that you presently know seems subjective to the you that you have yet to know
which pumps your heart and fills space with infinite frequencies, but both are subjective
as we unfold them. There is no absolute objective. If there was, it would be impossible to
know anyway.
In that light, messiah can be many things. A dentist can be a messiah if you don't know how
to fix your own teeth. If a messiah is someone who knows more than you presently, then
they are everywhere. That's a different conversation than saving the world and bringing mass
enlightenment, but only in scale.
Belief is the enemy of god/truth. Whoever said alchemists believed in god is technically incorrect
IMO. Belief doesn't change lead to gold. Open-mindedness is not belief. Belief is agreeing without
proof. Alchemists had plenty of proof in Nature and microcosm to see God. Belief is closed-minded.

All these divisions are relatively wrong compared to the whole. To divide conscious and unconscious,
creator and created, messiah and disciple... all relative points of view in linear time. They do not express
the bigger picture or come close to first matter, one homogeneous substance. But everything is right
for what it is. Separation/division is a part of the process. I would avoid projecting that into everything
else though. Separation is happening within unity. One's identity is always growing with their awareness.
What we are is what we emphasize. Emphasizing separation "proves" that you are separate, at least
subjectively. But one can emphasize anything, so it really proves nothing except that we are perceivers...
a description is one amongst trillions. What isn't a description? What is absolutely objective? A mind
utilising limited, finite knowledge cannot possibly know absolute... we cannot know it with our
minds/knowledge. Only limited things can be described.
One has to see directly the limitation of thought - then one is silent.

thrival
02-26-2013, 04:12 AM
It is my experience that these bigger pictures are still you. That is the process of unfolding. The you that you presently know seems subjective to the you that you have yet to know which pumps your heart and fills space with infinite frequencies, but both are subjective as we unfold them. There is no absolute objective. If there was, it would be impossible to know anyway. In that light, messiah can be many things. A dentist can be a messiah if you don't know how to fix your own teeth. If a messiah is someone who knows more than you presently, then they are everywhere. That's a different conversation than saving the world and bringing mass enlightenment, but only in scale.

Belief is the enemy of god/truth. Whoever said alchemists believed in god is technically incorrect IMO. Belief doesn't change lead to gold. Open-mindedness is not belief. Belief is agreeing without proof. Alchemists had plenty of proof in Nature and microcosm to see God. Belief is closed-minded.

All these divisions are relatively wrong compared to the whole. To divide conscious and unconscious, creator and created, messiah and disciple... all relative points of view in linear time. They do not express the bigger picture or come close to first matter, one homogeneous substance. But everything is right for what it is. Separation/division is a part of the process. I would avoid projecting that into everything else though. Separation is happening within unity. One's identity is always growing with their awareness. What we are is what we emphasize. Emphasizing separation "proves" that you are separate, at least subjectively. But one can emphasize anything, so it really proves nothing except that we are perceivers... a description is one amongst trillions. What isn't a description? What is absolutely objective? A mind utilising limited, finite knowledge cannot possibly know absolute... we cannot know it with our minds/knowledge. Only limited things can be described. One has to see directly the limitation of thought - then one is silent.

Wow, I so totally disagree with both of you, and I've never found anywhere but here, people who hold to such silliness. First, to Dev's remarks: "How can you be sure it's not all you? why not?" Well let me put it to as a quote from a Clint Eastwood movie (I forget which one, maybe you can remember.) "A man's got to know his limitations." ...or maybe just "Know thyself." The native Americans had a word for "the spirit that moves through all things." You might call it love, or the universal binding force or energy that holds particles together. But the universe has also divided itself and distinguished itself into multitudinous parts. I know that it's not the personal me I am responding to on this board, I know where my boundaries lie. and that's not to say I haven't had out-of-body experiences, dreamed I was or moved through other people, but I don't make the mistake of thinking that I am those people. I am not you and you are not me. It's like saying everyone contains water, but not the same water, at the same time. To assert otherwise is just silly and tries to co-opt credit for things you don't deserve, or occupy the same space. You can say "I AM...that" but only if you are speaking of the universal energy, of which you embody a finite amount, not the totality. That finite amount lets you identify with the whole, even pass through it, but not be the entirety. I think you might be describing drug experiences where you lost the power of discrimination, and that can become a really serious problem under certain circumstances. I've encountered people in my life who don't know their boundaries and I typically need to remind them, sometimes by exercising certain laws, to contain their over-bearing ...ness.

Solomon Levi:

...it's not subjective at all, at least not any more than my life experiences differ from yours. God individuated-- something shared, and something separate. It sounds like you guys need a Messiah to help you distinguish between truth and nonsense. No I am not volunteering because I think yours is a willful condition. Of course there will always be someone with more knowledge and experience, an older soul or spirit, separate and distinct in its experiences from yours. You are coming from very egocentric place to even think it's all about you, always was about you, or that the universe would cease to exist just because you might.

I'm not saying you must believe in Jesus as a Messiah, I very much get where dev is coming from re: organized religion, but I also think you're allowing the cultural interpretation of Jesus to bias your views. You can accept the veracity of his simple personhood without buying into the whole "Christ died for your sins" crap. If he ascended as the account claims, he ascended alone while you are still here, working through your personal karma.

My skance is that blind belief isn't helpful, but conditional belief (to-be-tested) is helpful, if it leads a person to a place of discovery and knowing. Knowledge far outstrips belief. It's the difference of me saying I believe San Fransisco exists, compared to someone who has actually been there. And when you reach that place outside of linear time, you will discover there are other spirits like yourself standing in that holy place where like spirits congregate, and who make it heaven by their presences and radiations, and you will realize while you/they share a certain common material, they are still separate and not you.

As for the limitations of thought, the universe is a thought, you are a thought, you were created by a Thinker bigger than you. Thought is probably the least limited thing out there.

I have an aquaintance who read the Seth/Jane roberts books and boy was he confused. JRoberts said we all "create" each other. I asked him what she meant by that, he used the example of say, his cat recognized me and "created me." I laughed and said well, that cat may have a mental or emotional construct of me in its head, but if the cat were to get flattened by a car, that construct along with the cat would be destroyed, while I would still be alive and walking around. Of course the opposite could also be true, I could get flattened and the cat might still have it's construct, but that construct would never be the real me. I have just one last word of advice: DON'T DO DRUGS, it addles your wit.

And to Adrogynous: The above is the reason why most people with any brains stick to the practical alchemy part of this forum, because to say conversations like the above are a waste of time is a forgone conclusion. I was just curious how long it might take for the BS to come out.

Bel Matina
02-26-2013, 04:45 AM
As I've been saying lately, "Never trust what you think. Thoughts are made of words, and words are a kind of bullshit."

The Word is not words. One that is one is one and even if it's two and three and four it's not just one and not the others. They say that the work is accomplished by rotation of the elements. Implicit here is Newton's second law, because one is one is one is one and what was there when you started is still what's there no matter when you check.

Implicit, then, in the basic teachings of the art is that time is an illusion, because the permutations of one are {{1}}. Exactly how that illusion is constructed is up for grabs. Recent findings in quantum physics that time and causality may be only incidentally related serve to bolster than and provide an anchor for modern mentalities to approach the problem. What defines our path through the rotations, if not the rising and setting of the sun? I would get into the math, but first it's important to see that it's not the stone spinning, it's your eyes; the sun isn't turning, we are.

An experiment for you. For the next week, whenever you talk to people think of them not as another person but as a recorded message from yourself a long time ago. Try to believe it, if you can, just for the moment. Observe the color it leaves on your experience.

thrival
02-26-2013, 05:09 AM
As I've been saying lately, "Never trust what you think. Thoughts are made of words, and words are a kind of bullshit."

The Word is not words. One that is one is one and even if it's two and three and four it's not just one and not the others. They say that the work is accomplished by rotation of the elements. Implicit here is Newton's second law, because one is one is one is one and what was there when you started is still what's there no matter when you check.

Implicit, then, in the basic teachings of the art is that time is an illusion, because the permutations of one are {{1}}. Exactly how that illusion is constructed is up for grabs. Recent findings in quantum physics that time and causality may be only incidentally related serve to bolster than and provide an anchor for modern mentalities to approach the problem. What defines our path through the rotations, if not the rising and setting of the sun? I would get into the math, but first it's important to see that it's not the stone spinning, it's your eyes; the sun isn't turning, we are.

An experiment for you. For the next week, whenever you talk to people think of them not as another person but as a recorded message from yourself a long time ago. Try to believe it, if you can, just for the moment. Observe the color it leaves on your experience.


Not all thoughts are in words, only exclusively left-brain persons think in words. You might think in pictures, or principles, or ways I might not yet understand or relate to. As for your experiment you propose, it would be an insult to the individuality of the person in front of me, to treat them as a mere recorded message from myself. That would be like saying I created the person, a most egocentric view, which is a very real problem of this age. And as far as "Implicit, then, in the basic teachings of the art is that time is an illusion, because the permutations of one" is B.S. I don't know where you heard it but you might not want to believe everything you read or hear. The stone is not the All and neither are you.

Awani
02-26-2013, 05:57 AM
The above is the reason why most people with any brains stick to the practical alchemy part of this forum, because to say conversations like the above are a waste of time is a forgone conclusion.

If you want to take it to this level I might add that most people with any brains stays away from blind beliefs and dogma and think for themselves.

In addition to that it is very clear from your response that you have missed the point of what either I or Solomon has said, which is fine... And lastly drugs have nothing to do with anything. I don't know what drugs you are on (sugar, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol or other) but I can assure you that I am most certainly more clear and sober than most on this forum (or anywhere else for that matter) when it comes to drug use. Blind belief and religion is also a drug btw... the biggest problem-drug we have on this planet.

To be 100 % certain is folly, to be 100 % certain is mental death. I am leaving the door open, only dogma shuts and lock it. If you think I am are talking from an egocentric viewpoint, at least what I have said (Solomon can speak for himself), then you are utterly wrong and have clearly missed the point. I live only by direct experience. Until I visit San Francisco it is only a myth. There is no certainty. Things are always in flux.

For me the holographic model of the universe seems to make most sense... I don't believe in it, but I support it for now until I come across a better model. It also fits most indigenous/shamanic thinking concerning the cosmos and reality, and it is nice when scientific models and spiritual models fit so perfectly together.

We certainly don't need a Messiah to distinguish between truth and nonsense as there are no real truth and 99 % of things are nonsense.

All I am saying really is WE DON'T KNOW... and what I oppose is people who say they DO KNOW for certain... it gives me the shivers and reminds me of those fundamental preachers we have around the world that cause nothing but problems. I like Jesus, and often quote Gnostic Jesus... but also Fuck Jesus!

The other day I spoke about this to a Muslim acquaintance I have (one of many) and he said that it doesn't matter if it is Jesus, Mohammed or the Pope or whatever... as long as you feel good in your heart. In other words religious scripture and institutions are meaningless and if a person wants to be a believer he certainly don't need either of those.

The most certain thing for me is that I am conscious, but even this can be an illusion. Shudder at the thought... so I make the best out of a sticky situation. Direct experience, awareness, consciousness and boundary dissolution are the only things that truly reveals any kind of gnosis and godliness for me... more so than preachers, messiahs and holy scriptures. But I will never support the idea that I need a leader... especially not one in human form. Human beings are not fit to lead. A spirit guide sure, I could follow that if it seemed like a reasonable being... but not one claiming to be this or that. Status is below higher beings IMO.

:cool:

Bel Matina
02-26-2013, 07:25 AM
"wayyomer yhi or wayhi or" He said it should be light and it was light. When God speaks the world happens. Don't you think you should be listening?

solomon levi
02-26-2013, 08:50 AM
seriously thrival? fine dismiss me as drugged if that's what you need to keep your certainty. i guess all quantum physicists are on drugs. you are also implying that drugs are not valid descriptions, somehow illusory... compared to what? how is every 'conscious' 'sober' perception any less illusory? it's obvious that you haven't seen all san francisco has to offer... only what you agree to allow, which is of course subjective, proving my argument. you throw objectivity out the window for your belief that this must be drugs talking. as if you know me. drugs, as you call them, have only confirmed what i know spiritually through years of discipline. blanket statements are not very objective my friend. seems you're afraid to even consider other views than your own without labelling them in some derogatory fashion. that's closed mind, not objective.

solomon levi
02-26-2013, 09:02 AM
so you haven't observed thought for yourself? you can only think about the known. what about the unknown and the unknowable? how do you compensate for them? it's no use talking if you are a believer instead of an alchemist by fire, which means you've tried and tested your beliefs. there are many self-fullfilling beliefs. what objective measure do you use? how do you know it's objective? have you experienced all there is?

Ghislain
02-26-2013, 09:35 AM
Sorry folks I missed the whole of page 6 replies when I wrote this and I have to go out now so I'll post
anyway.


Dev:

I agree that from a (personal) point of view, perception and direct experience is "everything." But there's something bigger than the individual, that makes sharing those experiences and perceptions possible. That fundamental (call it existence) is very real, and there are truths behind existence. One thing I'm 100% certain of is I didn't create myself, because there are some far less technical problems I still have trouble with, than (for sake of example) say, consciously growing my hair, healing a flesh wound, or cellular repair. I am quite grateful that some benign force bigger and smarter than me, handles those things automatically, without my conscious effort, because fact is I wouldn't have a clue. And that's an experience other people might share also. So it's not all personal experience (and) perception and it's not all shared either; but it's shared experience that make any kind of agreement possible. For example, does sunrise & sunset only occur for you, or billions of other humans also?

Thrival

I would say that everything is just that, everything. Perception and experience are very dynamic, your
perception and experience of most things will change, but everything is always everything.

When you say there is something bigger than the individual that makes sharing those experiences and
perceptions possible, I’m not sure I fully understand where you are coming from. What bigger thing is
needed?

I can see we do not perceive things in the same way, but that does not mean either of us has a better answer
than the other. For instance, you say there is a fundamental “existence” and I would agree...you call it “real”,
I would say reality is in the perception of the individual; what is real?...as for the truths behind the existence,
I would say that is what I seek, but as it has not been found with all the knowledge and learning available to
us then I have to look beyond what we perceive as reality and in so doing I don’t think I have found better
truths, but I have certainly uncovered some lies.

You say there is one thing you are 100% certain of...do you not think that is like saying I shall close that door
and nothing will change. I think that is the one thing that we all can be certain of, everything is dynamic and
changing, what is today may not be tomorrow, if that is unclear then think of something that is not in motion;
maybe you will find that you did create yourself. You based your theory of “not being your own creator” on
some far less technical problems...the two things are not that relative? I have a technical job, but I am crap at
football, this doesn’t mean I am crap at my job.

I like to think there are no problems only challenges and solutions, that is the game, is it not? Have you
looked into how you might consciously grow your hair? The healing of wounds and cellular repair are most
definitely done on a conscious level; how many people have died because they have lost the will to live and
yet so many others have overcome great ailments with a strong will to survive to the astonishment of their
celebrated physicians?

Some want to believe there is a force bigger and greater than themselves so as not to have to take
responsibility for their actions, but at the same time they are giving the credit they deserve to some none
existent scapegoat.

I believe we know everything, we just chose to forget and we create the world around us as we want it to be.
The key is to know what it is that you want, for without doing so is like firing a missile with no fins; who
knows where it will go?

You say it’s a fact that you wouldn’t have a clue, but look all around you and the clues reveal themselves.
You say it is not all personal experience and I have to disagree I say it is all personal experience. Two people
can have a shared experience and see it in completely different ways.

You posed a question of whether the sun rises or sets...do you believe it does? I would say it comes into
vision as the world rotates, and as for if it’s doing this for me or others...it just does is another way of looking
at the same thing.

If you want to create a higher being that is your prerogative, but I don’t think you give "yourself" enough credit,
that is just my perception.

Ghislain

Awani
02-26-2013, 12:28 PM
Good points Sol and G.


"wayyomer yhi or wayhi or" He said it should be light and it was light. When God speaks the world happens. Don't you think you should be listening?

Don't understand?

:cool:

Awani
02-26-2013, 12:33 PM
I just think that the age of leaders and subjects must come to an end. We must all take responsibility for ourselves. All children leave home sooner or later. We should do the same as a race. Therefor I am not into this Messiah crap, but if others feel they need one then sure. As long as nothing is forced unto others people can do what the fuck they want.

So this thread has both sides of the story now I guess, future readers can make up their own mind.

:cool:

thrival
02-26-2013, 01:25 PM
Dev, Solomon, Ghislain:

While my suggestion DON'T DO DRUGS was made tongue in cheek, I also believe the metaphor most closely resembles your common state of mind. And it is common by your common agreement, and it is YOUR state of mind by your own admission, so let's go with that. I'm sorry you dislike certainty, really. I'm sorry you don't believe you can know anything, because that will become a stumbling block. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but simply suggest something might be possible for you. Resisting authority because you don't like it or believe in it doesn't remove it from the universe. No, sorry, I didn't make myself and so yes I give credit to forces and Intelligence greater than myself. I also honor individuals for their separate differences and accomplishments and I don't blur everything together like some big, ingrown cancer cell and call it good, or semantics. We all know that words are mere descriptors of outer or inner conditions and often not up to the task, but if you really don't know your limitations or boundaries then you really are operating from addled brains. Maybe it was the thimersol from childhood vaccines, I won't claim to know every thing or causation, that would also be ...silly. Certainly you should grow and expand your awareness, but I guarantee that won't make you a new identity or clone of the existing you. Separate spirits in separate meat-puppets was the plan by something or someone bigger and smarter and for its own reasons. Something else I've learned about atheists (because you like to discuss "beliefs") is they (think) belief is relevant. It's not, but it is a reflection of one's own IQ. As for the rest of the morass you like to spin or are stuck in, I am not drinking that kool-aid.

Bel Matina
02-26-2013, 04:07 PM
Where's the meat?

Awani
02-26-2013, 04:43 PM
No one has claimed atheism!

:cool:

thrival
02-26-2013, 05:50 PM
I recall reading a book after my parents passed on, that I consider worthwhile: "A Course in Miracles." It has a chapter on the ego, and a chapter on unified mind. I'm gonna' paraphrase some of those ideas, but the idea of ego is it thinks itself is god, takes unlimited time to study itself and has a difficult time learning anything because it thinks it already knows, and that it is the be-all and end all of everything. It corresponds to the lower self of Max Freedom Long's "The Secret Science Behind Miracles" and "The Secret Science At Work" which deals with Hawaiian Kahuna shamanism. The lower self is an animal spirit or animus of every human being, that handles certain functions, including emotions, autonomic processes, and memory. It feels but it doesn't know anything, something between a child and a raging animal. It's the middle-self's job (separate spirit residing in the same meat-puppet) to train the lower self and tell it what is what. The lower self accepts whatever the middle self says. A lower self that has been well-trained starts to feel the benefits of same via a working life, and begins to manifest feelings of gratitude. This attracts the High Self, a third and separate spirit that resides above the man and lives in another realm. As the lower, middle and Higher self find alignment, the life changes radically and the lower bodies can be assimilated into the Higher, an Ascension. Now I'm not trying to convince you of those books' veracity. I'm just putting it out there. The Kahunas ostensibly had a working system that allowed them to perform all the miracles of Christ, from healing, to controlling the weather, putting the Christian missionaries to shame who came to convert them.

It comes down to facts, epistemiology, truth, reality which of course is bigger than we can know with just the 5 senses. Everyone has to make their own headway into those uncharted territories, I've nothing against direct experience. But you should also hold no prejudice to those who have gone before you and came back to report what they found; or be willing to test with an open mind. If your experiences vary, well that's OK too. I hope you've considered as many variables as you're personally capable, to understand WHY you had different results. Truth seeking (and finding) can be arduous, I'll be the first to admit. Of course it's way better to corroborate facts first-hand than simply take the word of authors. On the other hand, it would be stupid to deny something were true or possible just because you didn't experience it yet.

If nothing is certain then nothing can be known, therefore you have nothing to teach, because that would be a logical contradiction. A person can experience ambiguity and ignorance, it's OK to admit uncertainty (it even shows integrity); but to say certainty is impossible sets dynamite in your own pathway. It's a personal choice and you shouldn't be angry at others who have the sense of observation, not to repeat your mistakes, or their own past ones. The correct assumption is "I don't know, but I will do everything within my power to find out." ...or not, which would put you in the category of armchair philosophers.

As for the search for God, I read somewhere too long ago to quote a reference, that when a soul is sincere in that search, God Himself (or Herself, as the case may be) becomes a partner in the process, making failure impossible. (That's intended as an encouragement.) In my own case I can only claim marginal ...success, limited only by my obstinacy.

Ghislain
02-26-2013, 10:48 PM
Much of what you say above I can relate to; it’s one way of looking at things, but there are many others.
You mention “facts”...what are the facts? Atoms, if we believe the scientists, are 99.9% empty space... the
little bit that isn’t must contain matter...what is this matter particle? Again they say it’s the Higgs Boson and
build the massive Large Hadron Collider to try and find it.

The LHC was built in collaboration with over 10,000 scientists and engineers from over 100 countries, as well
as hundreds of universities and laboratories. Did they find the Higgs Boson...reports say they “might have”. :)
until another theory comes along.

No one, as far as I can tell, is saying they know anything. They are just putting forward possibilities, and that
is as far as one can go...there are a multitude of possibilities. Even if you manage to pin a possibility down as
fact, it’s temporary because everything is changing and what may seem a fact today may be an impossibility
tomorrow or visa versa.

I’m sure Newton thought he had it pinned down when he wrote his laws of motion, until Einstein came up
with his relativity and he thought he had it all pinned until quantum theory etc...etc...

Just when you think you have it sussed something comes along to turn everything on its head.

There is also a theory that there might only be one electron in the universe that shares itself among all the
atoms. Who knows?

Some of the scientific theories that some call facts are stranger than any fiction most could come up with.

Let’s say at some later date they find the 0.1% they can’t account for is also nothing? Many of us are
probably thinking that just can’t be...there must be something to account for us. Why must there be?
Perhaps we haven’t even scratched the surface of what is. Some used to think the Earth was flat, it was the
centre of the cosmos...:confused:

We could go on with example after example until we have a novel ...there is a lot written on
theory...mountains of books, libraries, the internet, but none of these could contain the writings of the things
we don’t know. But still we think we are so clever :)

Now take all this knowledge and tell us where it has taken us? The moon? If we reach the edge of the
universe then we have achieved the end scene in The Truman Show; it's been done! all hail Jim Carrey.

I don’t think anyone here is angry and I am not asking you to believe anything anyone says, just the opposite,
accept the parts you want, but keep an open mind for if it is closed then the truth is locked outside/inside.

Perhaps the Kahunas were more aware of the truth than us.

If it turns out there is a GOD and a Messiah then I'll say, "hey guys why didn't you say something sooner".

And we'd have a lot to talk about.

Ghislain

solomon levi
02-26-2013, 10:53 PM
The fact is, Thrival, you are not a separate individual.
You could not exist for an hour without other "separate" things like air,
sunlight, water, plants, other people... we are all connected. NO THING
exists independently. It's the truth. You just haven't looked close enough.
Your very body is made of star matter. Why do you think it is called microcosm?

It is ego which you are using to believe you are a separate individual. That IS the ego identity -
separation. It is tied to thought - that which believes in thought believes in separation...
thoughts are separate, individual, defined entities. That doesn't make them any more real,
the fact that they are more coagula than solve. You can solve them if you wanted to.
That has been called "meditation" by some.

I see you have your beliefs and fears, your methods of deflecting arguments and labelling
and excusing. I will leave you alone. But you are talking about what you know, and that is
a small piece of infinity. Other people here have other pieces. Have you not yet seen that
both sides are true? It's all perspective. Both Newtonian physics and quantum physics have
their place, their proofs. Why must it be one or the other? You think this intelligent creator
didn't make enough room for both sides of a coin?

solomon levi
02-26-2013, 11:40 PM
so you haven't observed thought for yourself? you can only think about the known. what about the unknown and the unknowable? how do you compensate for them? it's no use talking if you are a believer instead of an alchemist by fire, which means you've tried and tested your beliefs. there are many self-fullfilling beliefs. what objective measure do you use? how do you know it's objective? have you experienced all there is?

"Knowledge is partial, because our intellect is an instrument, it is only a part of us, it can give us information about things which can be divided and analysed, and whose properties can be classified part by part. But Brahma is perfect, and knowledge which is partial can never be a knowledge of him." - Rabindranath Tagore

"So we have to enquire: what is thinking? When the question is asked: what is thinking? - are you thinking, or listening to the question, what is thinking, and observe thinking? You have understood? No. Don't think, please, this is... Someone is asking you: what is thinking? Do you immediately find what is thinking, work at it, or enquire, search, or do you listen to the question - you understand? Listen, which means there must be a quality of silence when you are listening - right?
We are asking: what is thinking? Probably you have never asked this question of yourself, or perhaps the professionals have not written about it. Perhaps you are used to being told by the professionals what is thinking and then you will repeat. But that is not - that prevents enquiry into what is thinking, you are just merely repeating, that is not thinking. So what is thinking? What is the origin of thought? The thought that has put man on the moon, the thought that has divided the world into nationalities, the thought that has made wars, the thought between you and your wife, and husband, girl, boy and so on, what is this enormous energy of thought? Is not thinking a process of memory? Right? Process of memory. Memory is stored in the brain, memory comes with knowledge, knowledge is based on experience - right? All scientific knowledge is based on experiment, theories, hypothesis, knowledge. Always adding more and more and more. In any field, whether it be in the mathematical world, biological or aerodynamics and so on, in every field knowledge is based on experience. When there is knowledge it is being added all the time, accumulated, therefore experience is limited, so knowledge is limited - right? - both now and in the future. Because knowledge is always limited. And so memory is limited, and thus thought is limited. Anything that is limited must cause conflict - right? If one is thinking about oneself from morning till night, as most people do; their worries, their problems, their like and dislike, they are perpetually concerned with their own self, that is a very, very limited way of living and therefore that which is limited must inevitably cause conflict. When Britain says, 'We are British', it is very limited and therefore they are perpetually at war, they have lost empires - you know all that business. France is limited, and so every country wanting security creates boundaries of thought, culture, language and therefore it is limited. So every form of limitation must inevitably cause conflict. And one finds security in this limitation - right? Because the brain is seeking all the time some form of security, whether the security is illusory or actual. And most of us want security, in some form of illusion. These are facts. And so thought being always limited, it can think expansively, it can imagine the limitless horizon, limitless universe, but because it thinks, it imagines, therefore that is limited.
So wherever there is a limitation there must be war, there must be conflict because that limitation divides, separates. Are we together in this, a little bit at least? So when you see that will you cease to be British, will you cease to be German, French, Indian, and all that nonsense? Because then your brain is extraordinarily free from limitation and it has got tremendous energy then. So limitation is a wastage of life. You understand this? When one is thinking about oneself, that is, how to meditate, how to become religious, how to be happy, how to be... you know. How to be free of problems, which is all thinking about oneself. That thinking about oneself is very limited and therefore in our relationship there is always conflict. Therefore thought and time, we said, is the causation of one of the major reasons of conflict. If one understands that deeply, not verbally, not merely repeating something somebody has said but actually your own perception, seeing the truth of it, that very perception frees the brain from conflict.
Then the question arises from that: is it possible in our relationship with each other, man, woman, boy and girl, you know, all the rest of it, can we live in a relationship in which there is no shadow of conflict? Are you getting tired? Can we go on?..." - J. Krishnamurti
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=1614&chid=1310

Seth-Ra
02-27-2013, 12:38 AM
You cannot fill an already full cup.
No external messiah can either - Jesus made a shit-ton of fish, but when they were full, they just saved it for later. ;)

Only by realizing the All/One as a whole, and seeing both are True and One, can they also become "none", and thy self known for what it is in that moment. You are a cell in a large body. By realizing the whole, you can see where you belong within it, but that doesn't make that one spot better than the rest, and it all mirrors itself, circles within circles, life within life, light within light.

But those that can only see their spectrum of the Light, and refuse to acknowledge the others, or think them equal, for whatever reason, only imprison and bar themselves, individually.

Go, perpetuate the war of duality, it serves the whole regardless, but don't think those that see beyond the duality to the whole-ness, as ignorant, or stupid. It only harms you, to see "enemies" (those opposing to you) where there are none.



~Seth-Ra

Awani
02-27-2013, 01:12 AM
It only harms you, to see "enemies" (those opposing to you) where there are none.

Voltaire on his deathbed, in response to a priest asking him to renounce Satan, said: "Now, now my good man, this is no time to be making enemies."

:cool:

glenerson
02-27-2013, 03:52 AM
I believe that this world is written by the prophets. it is the prophets that dictate the events of the world. for prophecies are almost the hands of God, or even the hands of God themselves.

I'm a fervent believer of the prophets. Who knows that a few of us retelling the prophecies are reincarnated prophets of the past who were awakened by the testaments that they wrote long time ago and reread online.

Jesus' story has a prophetic ending. He is prophesied to come again and judge the world. He could even destroy the whole world and say, "This is the end, whether you like it or not." And this could be ongoing on the spiritual level. The one who is holding the First view of the World could be the one who can end the whole world by emptying the energy (i mean the physical energy) of the universe and poof, nothingness.

People here, especially dev, have the impression that I may be indirectly proposing myself as the Messiah. No, no, no. You are mistaken. For the Messiah could be a seed of the Spirit currently spreading among us. For the Messiah could be the sprouted spirit that led me to write this thread. The concept of the Messiah or Savior or the Maitreya is not exclusive to Christianity but I would think that Christianity, being spread widely, could nurture this Messiah Spirit to be evident on a believer. Another similar thread could be existing in other similar forums, blessed by the Messiah Spirit.

Anyway, The One/All concept is easy to grasp. It is the Nature of God. It is not exclusive to alchemy, nor to religion and any one faithful in finding and feeling the concept of One/All will surely feel it. But Along God is his divine will. What is the purpose of the Existence of One/All? This is the question. Why is the concept of One/All existing?

This is most probably that other Spirits are trapped and separated such that they cannot or won't experience the One/All. They are caught by the material world such that they don't get to know of what's beyond the arrangement of atoms and the composition of the universe. Our mind doesn't care about those for our minds long for stability and assurance that it is what it is. The mind of God is what our mind should emulate. For the One/All concept is the concept of liberation. And this has been the aim of the great minds and prophets for the past zillion of years.

And since there are only a few who can tap to the "mind of God", a Messiah is needed. A teacher who can say that you can be like me by just looking at this drawing. A teacher who can say that you can be like me by just believing in this three words. A teacher who can show you a few words and will have an impact to you for both of you are attuned/share the same polarity/or even both of you have known of the same "gnosis" from long long time ago and your spirits found each other in this day and age and that the reason you didn't know it is because you forgot. For the Messiah's will is not to impose that he is better than you. His will is for you to experience what he is. For time is limited. And it is prophesied that time will end.

And yeah, if God is not of matter, then what is divine is not of matter and it is not of and not from God. I could even postulate that God created matter temporarily to define Himself as a Spirit (but i usually go for the concept of the demiurge).

True that you can not fill a full cup but try filling a full cup, while it overflows, new liquid is mixed with the old liquid. and if the new liquid is denser, the old liquid will be overflowed and gone.

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 04:49 AM
to me, in my experience, a prophet is a seer. sometimes they see the future, sometimes the bigger picture... these are really the same. everyone is a microcosm, encompassing the entire spectrum of space and time. it's in our dna.
yes, i see this as a spirit or genie/genius that anyone may aspire to, or be the instrument of.
i don't see people as trapped or caught. i see volunteers, lovers, artists... god knows itself through reflection... we are not so ignorant to believe there is someone trapped in the mirror or pool of water... but god is. :) but now i'm speaking as if there are two again. alchemy is about reconciliation, marriage, union, androgyne... the separation between one and many, manifest and unmanifest, infinite and finite, must be resolved.
i am a prophet not seeking liberation. some prophets are content to serve. existence = serve. some serve in love/agreement, some complain and fight nature and preach of freedom. :)
god is matter and spirit. to not reconcile this is not alchemy.

Bel Matina
02-27-2013, 05:14 AM
Good points Sol and G.



Don't understand?

:cool:

The extension of genesis by number to the sounds of speech expounded by the Sefer Yetsirah is founded on an understanding of God's speech itself as the motivating force, the instrument of creation. God said "yhi or" (it should be light, that it should be light, let it be light) and it was light. The conjunction has a consequential force in Hebrew; not "he said let it be light and it was made light" but "let it be light and it was light." The sages took it that there is no world except as God speaks it. Thus, if you follow the Essene tradition, nothing is really happening except that God is whispering to us in our sleep.

That we can utter words with the same force is explicit in the magical side of that tradition. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I should caution here that the words in question are not those the vulgar use ;)

glenerson
02-27-2013, 05:38 AM
The extension of genesis by number to the sounds of speech expounded by the Sefer Yetsirah is founded on an understanding of God's speech itself as the motivating force, the instrument of creation. God said "yhi or" (it should be light, that it should be light, let it be light) and it was light. The conjunction has a consequential force in Hebrew; not "he said let it be light and it was made light" but "let it be light and it was light." The sages took it that there is no world except as God speaks it. Thus, if you follow the Essene tradition, nothing is really happening except that God is whispering to us in our sleep.

That we can utter words with the same force is explicit in the magical side of that tradition. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I should caution here that the words in question are not those the vulgar use ;)

This is interesting. It could also be that Our Ongoing Perception of Reality is the actual "voice" of God being "dictated" on us while were alive (obviously by voice i don't mean audible/aural human voice but some kind of wave function [if expressed in relatable terms], which is also postulated by the quantum scientists)

For as the Genesis says and you also reiterated, that the voice of God created everything. Particularly, Light was created by the voice of God and on top of the first creation, that is light, we see the variations of/in matter, which could be variations made by light itself. Existence could be experiencing this light and all its variations as experienced by the 5 senses as being dictated by God.

glenerson
02-27-2013, 06:14 AM
god is matter and spirit. to not reconcile this is not alchemy.

I would like to quote something that I made on other thread.

I - At first there was Nothing. Then There Came Something. But It didn't know itself. It divided into two. It called one Good and the other Evil. It wanted to be Good so It eliminated its Evil nature. And now it is existing only as Good, because it was already defined as Good.

the Nothing is God. And it created a reflection of Itself for It to define Itself. Its reflection, being a Creation, is not the Nothing. But its reflection defines what Nothing is. And to define the reflection and Nothing, It was cut into two. This two contains polar attributes that actually define each other. the dyad. In our case, The 1st half is Good and the other Evil. Being One, Nothing wants to have a single nature. The reflection eliminated Evil for the Good to only exist. And now, Nothing, on Its reflection, is only Good for it is already defined as Good. Now, only the Monad and its only definition - only as Good - exists.

This is, i think, how God assume his attributes. You can substitute Male or Spirit to Good and Female or Matter to Evil and see why God is defined as Male or why God is only Spirit and not matter. I also propose this as a proof to his omnibenevolence and a solution to the problem of evil.

But I have thoughts that matter and spirit should be reconciled as coexisting. I could just go to my faith and think of the Catholic interpretation of the nature of Christ. That He is in Hypostatic Union. That he is perfectly Human and Divine and these two natures are coexisting in one substance. I could believe on this.

But that would be like accepting all the evils that is going on in the world. And not completing the next step of what Christ is. My interpretation of Christ is that when he died on the cross, his human nature is gone and became illusion and he appeared to his apostles again as purely divine and his wounds was illusory (And the [Gnostic] interpretation of the Crucifixion is to destroy our humanity for us to be like Christ and of God, yes it could be said that it is to save us from the sinful (material) world). He had to be 100% divine to be ascended back to the pleroma for it is of divine nature. And he will come back again as fully divine and judge the living and the dead. Finding the harmony, as opposed to eliminating what is evil, is not being proactive. It's like rearranging the seats of students based on their levels of being noisy. The one in the back will remain noisy. But the elimination of evil/matter approach is the moral thing to do. you have the moral duty to do good things. you could talk to the noisy student in the back or bribe him of chocolates for him to change.

This is what I'm advocating. If you can change something to being good/pure, do it. if you could transmute matter to spirit for only the Spirit to exist and eliminate the evils which are associated with matter, do it. For true alchemists don't just find the harmony by rearranging or finding the connection. they are given the ability to transmute. and in my case, yes, i'm in my own way, everyday, trying to "transmute matter to spirit" so everything shall be of spirit and pure...

To end this post, i would like to quote Uncle Ben of the Amazing Spider Man (so you would think that Morals don't always come from the "bad" and "tyrannical" organized religion)

Uncle Ben: You're a lot like your father. You really are, Peter, and that's a good thing. But your father lived by a philosophy, a principle really. He believed that...that if you could do good things for other people, you had a moral obligation to do those things. That's what at stake here. Not a choice, responsibility.

Also if i could +1 thrival's post, i would happily do so. thanks for the insights.

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 08:37 AM
i understand Glenerson. i used to believe that. but what proof is there that nothing came first, or that we should identify it with god or good? what's so good about nothing? if the bible is your basis, god declared creation good as well... god didn't declare the nothing good.
the trinity is the number of reconciliation. trinities exist throughout various religions.
anyway, to simply say the nothing was first doesn't make it truth. how do you know something wasn't first and then nothing?
seriously, what i have seen is an ouroboros without beginning or end. something exists in nothing and nothing exists in something. that is reconciliation, and i pronounce it good. i pronounce all good/god. saying nothing is good/god and something came from good/god, then that too is good/god. these divisions are man/mind/thought made which too is god. why insist that god created or evolved something not itself, not god? why invent a counter-god? boredom? need drama? what good is religion w/out a devil/fear?

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 08:47 AM
we can all believe what we like and proselytize all we want. why should anyone believe anyone else, especially without proof. these are just stories. i've seen many things directly and it still doesn't make it truth. it's just what i'm supposed to see. i share, but i refuse to be a messiah for anyone but me. you guys are welcome to it. good luck. you need a lot more than knowledge if you want to pull it off.

glenerson
02-27-2013, 08:59 AM
i understand Glenerson. i used to believe that. but what proof is there that nothing came first, or that we should identify it with god or good? what's so good about nothing? if the bible is your basis, god declared creation good as well... god didn't declare the nothing good.
the trinity is the number of reconciliation. trinities exist throughout various religions.
anyway, to simply say the nothing was first doesn't make it truth. how do you know something wasn't first and then nothing?
seriously, what i have seen is an ouroboros without beginning or end. something exists in nothing and nothing exists in something. that is reconciliation, and i pronounce it good. i pronounce all good/god. saying nothing is good/god and something came from good/god, then that too is good/god. these divisions are man/mind/thought made which too is god. why insist that god created or evolved something not itself, not god? why invent a counter-god? boredom? need drama? what good is religion w/out a devil/fear?

For the concept of the nothing is the concept of God. that from Nothing arise Something and since Something is not eternal, it will be destroyed and only Nothing will exist, which is the eternal. And with this scenario transpiring, i posited that it is the nothing has the ability to create and destroy. The nothing is not a created being. The nothing cannot be destroyed for it is not created and is eternal

This is how religions (YES with the S) define God partly or wholly and if you sew them together, you will basically get what im saying.

I'm not creating a counter God. I'm just presenting God in understandable manner and my presentation is compatible with other religions. This is not a new God. This is not another copy cat of Spaghetti Monster. For if I needed drama, i would make it Fetuccini monster. But no.

They say that God is "unexplainable, unknowable." What I'm telling is the closest estimation of the description of God in words. And this could be understood by a 5 year old, which is good (for Christ also said that those who are like children know the kingdom of God [quite literal no?]). no complications. No, this does not involve horns and tails.

And what i just said could be the world view at the moment. That the nothing(God) created Something (everything) and within Something (everything )is the dyad of good and evil. the nothing wants itself only to be defined as good thus good is set to triumph over evil. In the end, Something(everything) will be all good and all evil shall be eliminated. Since Something(everything) is the reflection of nothing which is God, that means that in the end All creation of God becomes all good without tinge of evil, thus reflecting it to nothing (God) itself. This is to attest omnibenevolence, that evil is a creation independent of His nature (nothing is not something), that evil is a temporary existence to define what is good and his actual will of eradicating all of evil by Himself to assert that all of his creations are pure and good to finally define Himself as only Good.

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 09:18 AM
if nothing is eternal then what's the problem? we don't need to defend the eternal.
science thinks energy is eternal. are they wrong? energy is something.
if you want nothing, you wouldn't waste time talking or seeking agreement. those are somethings. it's not as if you will have company in the nothing. so what are you waiting for? stop being bad/ something and just be good/nothing. ??? how is nothing a process/something??

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 09:24 AM
what is the method of being nothing? death leaves a dead body. how do you get rid of all matter and energy? or is this just theory?

glenerson
02-27-2013, 09:34 AM
you could not grasp this because you are not open to the idea that the universe could be punctured and all the energy within it escapes, such that there will be zero energy in this universe (and transfered to another realm/universe, which is not in our view). Or you won't accept the possibility because you don't like the idea that energy could be destroyed within the universe such that the total energy within it is zero. See, the problem is that you are tied to the "facts" of science and it prevents you to go to the next step. I won't blame you. For the nothingness from up here where i sit is simple and understood well. For the nothingness that you define of is almost close, but not as close.

If you can't realize in thought the reality of "nothingness that can create, destroy and eternal", then God is indeed "unknowable and incomprehensible."

But it is not.

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 09:44 AM
whatever. now you claim to know what i can and can't understand or grasp. you're making excuses. so, no proof... a 5 year old who believes in santa claus can understand this... and you give no method when i sincerely ask for one but instead claim i understand less than a5 year old.
yeah, that's real believable.
i look forward to more evilness from you (your definition)
i really didn't expect a cop-out from you. you've been very reasonable til now.

glenerson
02-27-2013, 09:50 AM
i don't intend to be rude. I don't say that you understand less than a 5 year old. For 5 year olds aren't taken seriously by adults right? But i just told you that how i presented it could be perfectly understood by a 5 year old and of course older people (though older people would find it simplistic and illogical since they are indoctrinated by science.)

solomon i don't mean any disrespect. you're a veteran member of this forum and i respect you for that. but my words i can just say that way.

im sure it will all settle. if were living in the darkages, i could be burned for heresy. but it is what it is. i'm not playing games, im not creating drama, im not bored. i just want to share to you my views. i know they're a handful but i know it will touch you in some way.

Jesus' views were frowned upon by the Pharisees. The proponents of geocentric universe condenmed the heliocentrics. The Church excommunicated the Gnostics and the heresists. This could be our situation. For the crazy/radical views are shocking, but this shocking views could be truths or could change the world.

Solomon, I'm sure prolly my purpose in life is to awaken you or tell you about this. as ive said, i don't claim the truth, but im presenting you something that i understood and hopefully you'll realize too.

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 10:11 AM
i don't want respect for my age or time. i am a seer and i uderstand some science. they don't contradict in my case. i also understand gnosticism and many religions enough to 'speak them fluently'. i understand what you are saying just fine. that doesn't make it truth. i understand there are people who believe jesus was white, some say black, some say he ascended, some say moved to france or india... i understand all those possibilities. it doesn't make them truth.
what makes your understanding truth? understanding is not enough.
the reason i accept nonduality, what is, is because it is so whether you believe, understand, or don't. it's actual, not theory, not future world to come, not invented or rationalised. existence is my proof. what's yours?
i've already awakened. in my awakened state i see you telling me things that are not so. what is so is that existence exists. what you prefer is that it doesn't, but it does, so where is your god? in the future?

glenerson
02-27-2013, 10:22 AM
Existence is also my proof. And realizing that my existence came from nothingness and will return to nothingness. For my soul was from nothing and it became alive. And it existed to realize/know of the reality of nothingness and will eventually return to nothingness. By knowing this, I know of God. Yes the purpose of life is to know God and return to God. To allude to Genesis, "from dust to dust." From nothingness to nothingness.

Without the icing, this could be an atheistic thought. But i digress because this nothingness is actually God. Nothingness only exists in the beginning before the beginning. It has the ability to create (for nothing came something) and destroy (for something will be destroyed and nothing will remain). it is eternal for it is perpetually exists.

My life on earth is temporary for im not eternal. I'm created by the creator ignorant of him at first. And i discover his creations. And through his creations, i discover the Creator. and just like me, the creations will come to an end too, for the creations and i are one or im part of the creations and the creations are part of me.


That's basically it.

glenerson
02-27-2013, 10:38 AM
i've already awakened. in my awakened state i see you telling me things that are not so. what is so is that existence exists. what you prefer is that it doesn't, but it does, so where is your god? in the future?

my description of God is perfectly described by the Hindus and perfectly veiled by the Trinitarian Christians which is esentially the Only God, which is the God of the monotheists. He is One in 3 attributes. He's defined by the religions as "uncomprehensible, unknowable." but Jesus put a clue that "only children can enter the Kingdom of God." meaning He is simply realized if thought of without bias. Certainly He exists eternally before everything was created and will continue to exist eternally after everything is destroyed.

This is my God.

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 10:57 AM
so practically there's nothing to do, just like nonduality. :)
i can agree with what you say in the last post. that's most likely the way it is and what will occur. but there's no need to make one good/god and the other not. even if all eventually returns to nothing, nothing will eventually return to something. both are 'god's will'. god wants to experience something through us. that is good. that is how god knows itself. if god didn't want to know itself, it would not have become. you are wrong to judge god, to accept/love only part of god, the unmanifest. you are here, waiting i suppose... why not love the manifest until god 'decides' it is finished? or do you think god prefers you to suffer? alot of people think existence is suffering. it is going against what is that causes suffering, or desire as buddha put it.
what is perpetually exists whether it is something or nothing. :) i have trumps. yours is only trump when nothing dominates. my god is now/eternal. yours is past and future. mine encompasses more.

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 11:23 AM
yeah, but they don't say creation is bad. they say it is the result of imbalance of the gunas.
children are present-simple. the non-existence of the world is not present or understood by a child. it is a mental abstraction... complex. what is is as simple as can be and i fail every time i try to show someone.
anyway, i've come as close as i care to to non-existence. there will be no conversion today. i want to exist. not necessarily in this body, but the whole spectrum of energy, possibilities. i do not doubt at all the potential for non-existence; i've seen it and i turned away from it. if i see it again i'll send it your way. :)

Bel Matina
02-27-2013, 01:58 PM
Resolution, settling, a return to nothingness. Being is a bias in the parts (is and is not) and thus inherently discordant - indeed, one could read the story of the golden apple as a creation myth. Resolution is a return to harmony, and that is Good. :)

glenerson
02-27-2013, 04:33 PM
i have trumps. yours is only trump when nothing dominates. my god is now/eternal. yours is past and future. mine encompasses more.

No, for what is i'm advocating is to destroy matter, to set it as an illusion to see nothingness while alive. That is to experience God while alive. That is also to do and see only the Good while alive.

To accept the beginning and the end is bravery for you accept your fate. But what is more braver is to make reality also your fate. Nothingness encompasses (material) existence for on top of (material) existence, nothingness exist. And this is realized "if you destroy matter."

Solomon, you might be getting wrong signals with the word non-existence. For if you tie existence to matter. For in you matter is requisite to non-existence concept and this is a blasphemy to the nature of the spirit because you are implying that the Spirit couldn't exist alone. in my case, it is perfectly described as non-matter for it is possible for only the Spirit to exist. For freedom from/of matter which can be translated in relatable concept as Full Void or total nothingness such that nothingness alone only exist (which is actually the fullness of God) could be defined as Spirit, that which i subscribe to.

Ghislain
02-27-2013, 05:27 PM
You guys seem to have come to an agreement on nothing....

I myself cannot conceive of this as I always see the existence of energy or call it what you will. The
reason for this is that without energy there would not be anything to conceive of the nothing and
thus it would be irrelevant to ponder the existence of nothing.

Even a thought is just a manifestation of energy.

Puncturing the Universe to release the energy, is that at all possible? Do we know what the
universe is? Does it have something to puncture?

When energy is not manifesting as something then I guess I could call that nothing...

Remember the word “nothing” is just a word; words are something created by us to describe something,
even if that something is nothing. :confused:

Imagine if even the movement of energy stopped and there was nothing... would there be
something left that could be put it in motion once again?

What is energy?...I believe it to be a ripple...what caused the ripple I don’t know...will the ripple
stop?...I don’t know.

As everything is created from energy, even thoughts, then I don’t believe it impossible that we have
the power to harness that energy and create all that we see.

If however they do find and prove the existence of matter then I may have to have a rethink.

In electronics, circuits can become enormously complicated, and to make the understanding of the cicuit
less complicated there is a tool called Thévenin's theorem, which allows one to see the part of the circuit
that it has been applied to as a single component. Maybe that is what we did when we created God.

This thread is about a messiah...does a messiah need a God? Or is a messiah just an enlightened
being? Is an enlightened being just a being that has got his head...if he has one...around what is?

Ghislain

Seth-Ra
02-27-2013, 06:36 PM
I would like to say, with all this describing of "nothing", that I don't subscribe to the idea of true "nothingness" in which there is nothing at all.

From my experience, its called/considered "Nothing" because it's "no (one) thing" - but rather, all things combined.

White light is a good example/metaphors of this. You see the colors as things, but in Truth, it's all one empty-white-blur, yet it's not really "empty" as it's full of the energy of all of them. It has possibility/potential for any, because it is them, as one, no-color (empty/nothing) beam, but it's fullness comes from them all being there, not them non-existing.

Same is said for the blackness of space/"empty-space". There is potential and energy there, the space is full, but appears empty for its all together, until a "band" (using the light metaphor) is emulated there. Creation is all waves and energy, music and light, for that is how the Creator shows itself.

None of this can be destroyed, only changed form (transmutation). Matter and antimatter can get slammed together - matter, even though minutely, wins in the end. What IS, IS, and it IS ourorboral.

To our eyes, the All/One/None in Light, is White, in pigment/matter is Black. Thus the yin-yang, tis only density, but all is energy, and they carry the seeds of the other one in themselves.

It has, again, been my experience, that the only way to "rebel" from God/All/One/None, in the truest sense of a luciferian/self-made enemy-sense of the notion, is to desire to be against what IS, whether matter or spirit, for the two are one. To desire non-existence all together, is to tell the All/One that its wrong, and think you have a better way then The Way that IS. It's also futile, except in the hurting of yourself and self's experience by siding with the ego and it's self-severing idea.
And, in the truest sense of irony, even doing that helps the All, by creating balance against those who do opposite, and propagating change via actions taken to attempt such. Lol

You cannot get outside of God, but you can attempt to beat your head against the wall in attempt, serving as fuel for the fire of perpetual, ourorboral, change, as the energy cycles back into itself. :cool:

So, my stance: the Nothing is not non-existence of something, but rather, full existence of everything and is not any single thing - it is unity of everything.

Ghislain,
I'd say a messiah would be an enlightened being - and yes, I'd define enlightenment as one who has wrapped their head (or self) around what IS. All a messiah can do, is that of a teacher: guide, point in the direction. It is up to all that hear it, to receive what they will, in that moment. As for a messiah needing a god - only that which IS. ;)
The only True Messiah, is the Spirit itself, in whatever form you need it to be in, in any given moment; a person, an animal, a vision/dream, a lab operation - whatever further communes with you and shows you the Way. :)



~Seth-Ra

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 08:04 PM
No, for what is i'm advocating is to destroy matter, to set it as an illusion to see nothingness while alive. That is to experience God while alive. That is also to do and see only the Good while alive.

To accept the beginning and the end is bravery for you accept your fate. But what is more braver is to make reality also your fate. Nothingness encompasses (material) existence for on top of (material) existence, nothingness exist. And this is realized "if you destroy matter."

Solomon, you might be getting wrong signals with the word non-existence. For if you tie existence to matter. For in you matter is requisite to non-existence concept and this is a blasphemy to the nature of the spirit because you are implying that the Spirit couldn't exist alone. in my case, it is perfectly described as non-matter for it is possible for only the Spirit to exist. For freedom from/of matter which can be translated in relatable concept as Full Void or total nothingness such that nothingness alone only exist (which is actually the fullness of God) could be defined as Spirit, that which i subscribe to.

Well, I say mine is trumps because it already is. Nothing has to be done to make what is what is. Something has to be done to destroy matter, so it is future and conditional. Certainly you see that or we couldn't be having this conversation. What is always is what is, now, yesterday, tomorrow... always.

Ok, i accept your definition that spirit can be existence without matter. But to me it is just scale, no real difference. Matter IS spirit condensed. The way I understand this is dreams within dreams within dreams... you want to remove a few layers of dreams and call that different from dreaming... it's different and it's not. It's not AS dense, but it still dreaming. Density doesn't bother me, or any awakened person. An awakened person doesn't care what level of dreaming it is - it's the same dream stuff.

You haven't proven that nothing is good - you merely say so. Nothing is nothing. Only things can be good IMO. Nothing has no qualities or preferences. I have seen nothing and there was NO THING for me there, not good, not bad... no thing.
You don't have to destroy matter for the nothing. The nothing is in every particle. It is merely a matter of emphasis. This is always so - our reality is what we emphasize. Most people ignore nothingness. You can emphasize it if you want. Matter is temporal, as you say, so it cannot be bad or wrong for me. What is temporal is not worth judging or labelling or believing to be any certain way other than temporal. God wanted time - man didn't make time/distance/space. They occurred as soon as God became self-aware.

As i already said, i don't agree with your linear view of nothing coming before something. I have SEEN differently. I was taught your way, but I have seen for myself directly a different way. You seem to want your cake and eat it too... sticking to linear time when it serves you and then calling what is temporal not good/god. If you want the non-temporal, then you must stop arguing it. You cannot say, "this came first" and love the nothing/nontemporal... you cannot serve two masters. Temporal/linear is a denser dream than nontemporal/spatial. The Ouroboros is spatial, not linear. It has no beginning or end since it began swallowing itself. I have seen this. If there ever was a beginning, it doesn't exist anymore. Now it is fractal... you can go up or down, zoom in or zoom out, and you won't find an end or beginning. So we disagree there if you insist nothing is the beginning or "on top of". On top of matter is energy, and energy is infinite. This is not me believing science... it is what I see, AND it agrees with science. I don't know how that fits into your view of spirit and matter.

When i went to the nothing, I didn't destroy matter or destroy anything. They both exist simultaneously. This makes more sense than thinking we must destroy one for the other. When you astral project, you don't destroy your body... both levels exist simultaneously. Well, all levels exist simultaneously and there are many: "in my Father's house, there are many mansions/rooms". This is why I reject this kind of gnosticism as extremist... they are not content to experience nothing for themselves, but to destroy all matter for everyone, and this will not happen unless god re-enters itself, and that chances of that are as small/great as the chances that it became self-aware. So I'm saying don't hold your breath. :)
But you perhaps agree that they exist simultaneously... you said earlier something about the energy being extracted to some other universe or something. Ok. There's nothing to keep souls from incarnating in that universe if you remove matter from this one, so nothing changes... still somewhere there is matter and somewhere there is nothing or spirit. That's how it already is. That's why we incarnate here. If you want to take "here" and put it elsewhere, in another universe, so what? Doesn't change anything. There will always be justice/equilibrium no matter how you distribute stuff.

For me, to be present is bravest.

Take it or leave it, but the full void is not final. Christs can enter it and leave it at will, just as with matter. I will learn to sustain it, but for now, I am here. The void never told me anything was good or bad. There are just experiences possible to god. God can be void, and god can be man or rock or solar system or child molester or saint or spirit or time or.... Everything comes from the mediation of the one. Mediation isn't bad, for mediation allowed you to think it bad... without mediation, you could not know good and bad. Reconcile! Repent is metanoia in greek which means to change one's mind... change your mind from duality to unity if you wish to know god face to face. Understanding god through reason is nothing - like tasting a fruit through another's description.
I am not lacking in god. I need no messiah but welcome all brothers and sisters. I am not a seeker... I am savoring what I have found. Heaven is already on earth. I have seen perfection enough to know that it exists even when i don't see it. So we can talk about what we see, but I don't need or want a different version of god. I've tried many of them and this one is the most encompassing and actual and present and unconditioned. What more can you offer me? Good and bad?! hardly! you offer me a prison. If you offer me a grander version than my own, I can recognise it. But what is more grand than unconditioned. You offer me conditions, which the world already has and suffers under. You say it won't be suffering if/when... (matter is destroyed).... I have no suffering NOW, unconditionally. I suffer when i choose to. I WANT the option. That is freedom and love and unconditional. Freedom must include freedom to be bound if you want to! Your version does not offer that and is therefore limited compared to mine. I want the option of matter. I have already been an angel who avoided matter, until I decided to fall. We all have. Everyone incarnated was spirit prior, to speak linearly. (I can speak linearly... it's not against my rules/version which encompasses all. For you, it should be a sin.)

solomon levi
02-27-2013, 08:13 PM
I like your post Ghislain. Very sober.
Seth, I agree with you on nothing. As science sees it, even when a "particle" and its antiparticle collide,
they destroy eachother and, in the case of electron and positron, two photons are given off/radiated...
two photons is not nothing. So the idea that anti-matter destroys matter is really a transmutation of energy.

glenerson
02-27-2013, 09:14 PM
This thread is about a messiah...does a messiah need a God? Or is a messiah just an enlightened
being? Is an enlightened being just a being that has got his head...if he has one...around what is?

Ghislain

This is where religion fills in. Christianity has one. Buddhism has one (Maitreya or even Buddha himself is the Messiah for he preached liberation from suffering). I would even argue that there is the Esoteric Buddhism wherein the original dharma of the Sakyamuni are believed fundamentally. It is not about finding peace and harmony along side with suffering. it is destroying suffering itself. And that is requires radical means. Sakyamuni told us a path. And people are following that path.

Christianity we all know. Christ "died for your sins" (surely a veiled phrase) and he "will come again to judge the world/end it". That's about it.

The moral lesson is that these Messiahs didn't just preached about harmonizing or coexisting with evil. They intend to do something about it because not all people are OK with coexisting with suffering/evils for the sake of experiencing the Allness/Oneness. It is hypocritical to preach the beauty of allness/oneness while doing nothing about the fact that these evil/suffering is existing with you.

For they are the Messiahs. They are not merely teachers. They are catalysts or even examples to emulate who decided not to sit back and watch evil unfold in their eyes. Emulating one is very different from accepting one's teaching for the latter requires discretion. Emulating one is because you believe in it, or even better blindly believe in it.

They exist only to prove one thing. That God is omnibenevolent and because of that, He uses a Messiah and sets to correct the anomalies or eliminate the temporariness of Evil for Him to be defined as Only Good.

And i don't agree that the mind is a subset of the energy of the universe. for it is so powerful that i can exist out the universe itself. i believe that God endowed us our minds for us to be an image of God.

Seth-Ra
02-27-2013, 09:29 PM
This is where religion fills in. Christianity has one. Buddhism has one (Maitreya or even Buddha himself is the Messiah for he preached liberation from suffering). I would even argue that there is the Esoteric Buddhism wherein the original dharma of the Sakyamuni are believed fundamentally. It is not about finding peace and harmony along side with suffering. it is destroying suffering itself. And that is requires radical means. Sakyamuni told us a path. And people are following that path.

Christianity we all know. Christ "died for your sins" (surely a veiled phrase) and he "will come again to judge the world/end it". That's about it.

The moral lesson is that these Messiahs didn't just preached about harmonizing or coexisting with evil. They intend to do something about it because not all people are OK with coexisting with suffering/evils for the sake of experiencing the Allness/Oneness. It is hypocritical to preach the beauty of allness/oneness while doing nothing about the fact that these evil/suffering is existing with you.

For they are the Messiahs. They are not merely teachers. They are catalysts or even examples to emulate who decided not to sit back and watch evil unfold in their eyes. Emulating one is very different from accepting one's teaching for the latter requires discretion. Emulating one is because you believe in it, or even better blindly believe in it.

They exist only to prove one thing. That God is omnibenevolent and because of that, He uses a Messiah and sets to correct the anomalies or eliminate the temporariness of Evil for Him to be defined as Only Good.

And i don't agree that the mind is a subset of the energy of the universe. for it is so powerful that i can exist out the universe itself. i believe that God endowed us our minds for us to be an image of God.

Actually, all they did was teach, and some healing/miracles, demonstrating the power given to them, but it was mostly teaching. The Jews were expecting a messiah to come put a boot in Rome's face, Jesus didn't do that, but instead told them to give to Ceasar what was Ceasar's. (one reason why they don't recognize Him as a messiah)
No past messiah ever removed "evil". After all, it's still perceived. ;)
They knew the All/One, seen/knew they were part of it, demonstrated the Way of it, and in knowing the whole, and themselves, they knew the path/polarity they had to walk. Appreciating and knowing the All, does not remove the polarity you inhabit, but does give you appreciation of the other ones, and allows you to possibly change yours, but mostly, to be at peace with them all, and yourself and yourself's way within the Way. :)




~Seth-Ra

glenerson
02-27-2013, 09:38 PM
Actually, all they did was teach, and some healing/miracles, demonstrating the power given to them, but it was mostly teaching. The Jews were expecting a messiah to come put a boot in Rome's face, Jesus didn't do that, but instead told them to give to Ceasar what was Ceasar's. (one reason why they don't recognize Him as a messiah)
No past messiah ever removed "evil". After all, it's still perceived. ;)
They knew the All/One, seen/knew they were part of it, demonstrated the Way of it, and in knowing the whole, and themselves, they knew the path/polarity they had to walk. Appreciating and knowing the All, does not remove the polarity you inhabit, but does give you appreciation of the other ones, and allows you to possibly change yours, but mostly, to be at peace with them all, and yourself and yourself's way within the Way. :)




~Seth-Ra


The life of Jesus didn't end when He died. His apostles, the Church, the laity - the bride of Christ, have ever since preaching only to be Good and shun/not to be/triumph against evil. Christian mystics have done painful methods to purge themselves from evil. The Desert Fathers actually faced "evil" in the Desert for them to be living in purely. And the good of all, Christ himself promised that He will come back again. And for what? im pretty sure not to preach what has been told.

Christ is living within in His believers. It is us that makes Him immortal/spiritual in a sense. So saying that his messianic life ended when He died and ceased to exist is half thought. For he continues to exist and if the prophecies is to be fulfilled, he will "establish God's Kingdom", which im pretty sure is all Good and void of evil, "on Earth"

Awani
02-27-2013, 09:43 PM
Yes if we assume Jesus was a real person. Was he? If he was a concept it doesn't lessen his ideas but it would change your argument.

:cool:

glenerson
02-27-2013, 09:53 PM
if Donald Duck is made to say "Love one another.", will it change the fact that he preaches the ultimate duty even he is man-made? Is it requisite that he was a real person for Donald Duck to be credible?

Or if a masked guy saved you from an incoming train after you fell off the tracks, will it matter if the face behind the masked guy is the ugliest face that you will ever see?

Humanity of Jesus has a purpose. That is to establish that God Incarnate suffered like us and to feel that suffering and be proactive about giving the solution. If he didn't exist in real life, will it matter? All I know that his story matters for I didn't live in 30 AD to see him. I believe in his story. I trust his story. There are people who existed before me that knows.

If you still insist that he didn't exist, I could argue that the dinosaurs didn't exist and the bones were just planted by archeologists to trick me that dinosaurs did exist (just to prove a point).

Awani
02-27-2013, 09:55 PM
I just said it doesn't lessen his ideas, so don't get the reply?

:cool:

glenerson
02-27-2013, 09:58 PM
So what's your point? I didn't get to live in 30 AD so my belief on Christ has been based on beliefs and trust. So I just told you that if he didn't really exist, it would not change my arguments.

Awani
02-27-2013, 10:05 PM
Ok so if the idea is the core then why focus on the man? The idea of love/good works on its own.

:cool:

glenerson
02-27-2013, 10:07 PM
Ok so if the idea is the core then why focus on the man? The idea of love/good works on its own.

:cool:


Because he existed and his humanity was part of His whole story.

Awani
02-27-2013, 10:20 PM
But now you go back to the importance of his existence, if it doesn't matter who it was or if he was real but the ideas matter, as you said, then why does it matter where the ideas come from? Jesus is only part of the Western history of 2000 years. Religion and spirituality have existed at least (minimum) 100 000 years. That's only 2 %.

All prophets are human, or part of humanity... there have been no other as far as I know. So they are all the same. And again the humanity part of his story is pointless, as all stories of people have humanity in them. It kind of goes with the territory.

Don't get me wrong I like Christ, but I don't see him as a man... and I don't pray/worship/follow him anymore than I do Bill Hicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Hicks) who pretty much said the same thing (only with a few more curse words).

:cool:

thrival
02-27-2013, 10:37 PM
Hey Dev, can I respond to that one?

Christ doesn't matter any more or less than you do, i.e. entities who passed over planet earth. The point is (as the story goes) he had some insights and seemed to have unordinary power to prove their veracity. Some of those points were 1. The Creator is benign and cares about His creation, 2. Man is fallen and can recover a previous higher state. 3. That a place known as the after-life exists. Now I can't prove that Jesus taught reincarnation but there is a passage in the Gideon Bible that says his disciples were asking him who John the Baptist was (following his beheading) and Jesus said "If you have ears to hear, he was Eliah come again." Now Eliah ostensibly went to heaven in a fiery chariot, and John came through a woman's birth canal, so the only explanation (if we're to take the statement literally) is John was the reincarnation of Eliah. Of course there were other prophets and if you continue your study beyond the Bible you will read of previous golden ages and people who made their ascensions during those times. Rather than get all caught up in personalities, think about YOUR progress and YOUR possibilities. Those person who moved on ahead are willing to help those coming up the rear, but most of us have obstructions in our feelings, for lots of reasons. Of course modern interpretations and bad behavior of religious adherents are just one reason why people hold resentments (pedaster priests, popes who presided over Inquisitions, etc.); what's not to hate about Catholicism! ...but the point is to look for the grain of truth and follow that thread. I could go on, but only if there's an interest.

glenerson
02-27-2013, 10:40 PM
But now you go back to the importance of his existence, if it doesn't matter who it was or if he was real but the ideas matter, as you said, then why does it matter where the ideas come from? Jesus is only part of the Western history of 2000 years. Religion and spirituality have existed at least (minimum) 100 000 years. That's only 2 %.

All prophets are human, or part of humanity... there have been no other as far as I know. So they are all the same. And again the humanity part of his story is pointless, as all stories of people have humanity in them. It kind of goes with the territory.

Don't get me wrong I like Christ, but I don't see him as a man... and I don't pray/worship/follow him anymore than I do Bill Hicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Hicks) who pretty much said the same thing (only with a few more curse words).

:cool:


i'm not stressing the idea that his material existence is the focal point of his credibility. His humanity was part of the story that God existed within his creations as part of His compassion.And probably the untold story or the not usual story is to actually be one with matter to destroy matter (to free us from the sinful material world).

See. People love making stories. Human life is a story itself. And it is fulfilling to write the greatest story ever told. I would want to witness the greatest story ever told. I want to be a part of it. For life is actually watching a movie in a movie theater, but this movie theater gives you the ability to get your input to put your contribution to the fulfilling of the story. I would love to witness prophecies being fulfilled and its even better if i was a part of making that prophecy being fulfilled.

Does it wonder you that the story of Jesus is relatively new yet it is subscribed by most of the people on Earth. Meaning it is relatable and close to the Spirit. Probably elements of the story are made to actually touch the spirit and relatable. And it is simple. That is an attribute of a great story.

And Jesus story is from a continuation. And Judaism is from a continuation. Etc. etc. And if you weave all the religions all together, there is a commonality. One God. Creation story. Even the indigenous people believe in a Creator. I AM fervently believing that the One dictating the course of events distributed these jewels throughout all the religions to be discovered and woven together as a whole.

Like Trinitarian Christians and the Three Nature of Brahman. I've read in the Wikipedia that Trinity is a Christian Mystery. You take it as facevalue. I was blindly seeing it until I delved into Valentinian Gnosticism and realized the Word/Jesus. From there There was something missing. I can't put into the equation Holy Spirit. Then I go back to the Orthodox Trinitarianism and found out Similarity between the Holy Spirit and Vishnu. Then I saw the bigger picture And realized that the polytheism of Hinduism is a veiled attempt to make everything not obvious.

This is the thought process that im currently in. Not because im spitting out Jesus/Christianity is that I'm converting nonbelievers. Of course, thank you if you subscribe because if you do, i think im doing my purpose. Christianity is the religion that i subscribe to and relatable to me and im very comfortable with its concepts but it doesn't make me a purist for i know that Christianity came from something else and i have to see the connections.

And this i believe is why i am part of the greatest story that is ever told. we are all part of it.

glenerson
02-27-2013, 10:53 PM
Now I can't prove that Jesus taught reincarnation but there is a passage in the Gideon Bible that says his disciples were asking him who John the Baptist was (following his beheading) and Jesus said "If you have ears to hear, he was Eliah come again." Now Eliah ostensibly went to heaven in a fiery chariot, and John came through a woman's birth canal, so the only explanation (if we're to take the statement literally) is John was the reincarnation of Eliah.

^_^