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Phoenix
01-06-2009, 05:37 PM
This is a Phoenix-thread (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=7) from the old site (http://alchemy-forums.forumotion.com/forum.htm) created by monkeyblood.

I didnt know where to put this thread but as the use of astrology in alchemical process is inimical for timing,I thought here.The use of astrological timing is a very practical thing when it comes to doing ritual or experiments to enhance the chances of success.

One question that has become foremost in my mind as I visit these occult and alchemical sites is the paucity of and lack of interest in sound astrological knowledge.Why?
The best astrological sites seemed completely divorced from the major alchemical sites.It amazes me as the greatest alchemists all were competent astrologers.And the disdain and lack of interest of many modern alchemists seem to have for astrology baffles me.I put it down to ignorance myself.
And laziness,as a student of the art,I well know the effort required to achieve a basic level of competence.Even studying the truncated body of knowledge called modern astrology took me years of effort and cost me thousands of dollars.
Astrology and Alchemy in my opinion is ONE AND THE SAME!

There is really now difference, and it would be interesting to hear if anyone knows when, or where, this seperation has occured. Now astrology has got a bad rep due to the New Age culture which I personally find a bit too much at times. Horoscopes and palm readings and all that crap has ruined the true form of astrology - which is to use the forces of the planets to influence the Great Work!

Paracelsus (http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?t=10) himself was both an astrologist and an alchemist, and many alchemists have employed both areas. Isaac Newton, for instance, is best known for his astological works (astronomical) as is Tycho Brahe - but both were also great alchemists!

Good topic monkeyblood!


Well I can help with that.There are two excellent books,The Fated Sky by Bobrick Benson and Traditional Astrology by Noonan that describe how and when the great divide occurred.I'll go through them and quote or paraphrase what I can.However they are well written,informative books on astrology,well worth a try by anyone interested in occult knowledge.
After Newton and with the rise of the age of science and reason astrology fell into disrepute and disarray.It was in the nineteenth century that interest was revived,primarily by one Alan Leo who was also a theosophist.As much as he helped to popularise the art he simultaneously debased it,primarily because he was a mediocre astrologer.
But like many who call themselves astrologers today he knew more than most people which conferred on him a kind of authority he didnt possess.And also like some wellknown astrologers today he was a master of marketing which saw his form of astrology take precedence.

'A lie will make its way around the world before the truth has its boots on.'

Terry Pratchett
One of the reasons that I came to this site was that I had read your posts on other sites,Deviadah,and I appreciated your evenhanded treatment,interest and knowledge of astrology.

I also like the scope of alchemy,the astrological sites can be a little limiting for subject choice....unless its astrological.

I also like the absence of the chest beating narcissicism and aggression of other sites.It seems to be the hallmark of the dilettante occultist.I find the discussion here to be thoughtful,knowledgeable and courteous.Playful at times.All good.
One area in modern astrology that seems to hold a lot of promise is Heliocentric astrology. Especially for a being just stepping outside of our home planet, this seems to situate us very squarely in the middle of our own cosmological system. It may be that future astrologers will put more stock in the Heliocentric than the geocentric methods. Thoughts?
-Anibis
That is a very fruitful area for exploration and one,I must confess,I know little about.Interestingly enough,it was Copernicus's rediscovery of the heliocentric system that helped to contribute to astrology's decline.
'The decline of astrology is generally ascribed to the triumph of the heliocentric hypothesis of Copernicus,to Kepler's laws,Newtons mechanics,the discovery of new planets...and 'last but not least to the healthy skepticism of modern man.''The astrologer himself careth not whether(as Copernicus saith)the Sun be the center of the world.' declared Sir Christopher Heydon.Indeed,it made no difference in that sense to Copernicus either,or to Brahe,Dee,Galileo,Kepler,Lilly or Morin.
Again it was said,that after the appearance of new stars in a once unchanging sky,or the discovery of Jupiter's moons,astrology was belied;but astrology was a self-contained system that operated on Neoplatonic and Pythagorean terms.'

Pg 237 The Fated Sky
This is from Fred Gettings,an occult scholar truly worthy of the title.The word scholar seems to be bandied about so easily these days.
His book,'The Arkana Dictionary of Astrology' is worth a place on anyones bookshelf.I have found it to be an invaluable reference book and am always referring to it.Like now.

Heliocentric System- A model of the solar system which places the Sun as a fixed point at the centre,and uses this as the basic co-ordinate to which all cosmic measurements are related.In astrology,this is contrasted with the geocentric system,which in its modern form is much adapted from the original Copernican form,and is heliocentric.
The idea of a heliocentric system was known to the greeks,as for example,in the model proposed in outline during the 3rd century,by Aristarchus of Samos.In setting out the form of his own ptolemaic system,Ptolemy mentions the Aristarcheian model,but appears to think that it does not give a satisfactory explanation of celestial phenomena.Most modern astrology is founded upon a geocentric view of the solar system,though all information used in the calculation of nativities is now ultimately derived from the heliocentric system.

Pg 231 Arkana Dictonary of Astrology

Page 229 of the book goes into a more thorough explanation of heliocentric astrology.

I find the discussion here to be thoughtful,knowledgeable and courteous. Playful at times. All good.Well, thank yourself too!

We all make it happen together!

I think the reason for the nice mood is becuase there is no big EGO here! And even if one would turn up s/he would probably disappear quickly since s/he would not fit in! Actually last year one such person turned up and vanished! Good riddance!

I am enjoying this thread!

I will return with more thoughts... don't have any right now and rather post when I got something proper to say!

But let me just throw out that the 13th sign, The Serpent Holder, is the astrological sign that directly can be linked to alchemy (although all of them can)! There are also many ways to look at all this: Calendrics (which I am sure Anibis has got a thing or two to say about), the symbolism of all the planets, their influence on our planet and of course the combination of all these areas.

Using astrology to see into the future is the least interesting, I feel, since the future is not written. But to use it as a tool and veichle to journey inwards is where the real gold can be found!

http://watch.pair.com/ophiuchus.jpg


Hmmm.....the serpent holder.....going into contentious ground there,Deviadah......well,I mean its a battlefield between the Classicists and the Moderns over that particular issue....I hesitate to make my opinions known on this so I will instead defer to the experts.First a definition for the uninitated by Fred Gettings.

Ophiuchus-constellation from approximately 27 degrees Scorpio to 27 degrees Sagittarius,straddling the celestial equator in a 40 degree arc.It is sometimes called Serpentarius(serpentholder) though the serpent itself is usually described as a seperate asterism(Draco).....Ptolemy likens its influence to Saturn tempered by Venus.

There is great debate over the willingness of some astrologers to attribute it as the thirteenth sign of the zodiac.

'In Western astrology the zodiac is based on the ecliptic,the sun's imaginary path through the sky,dividing it into 12 equal sections.This is known as the tropical zodiac.
Indian astrologers use a slightly different zodiac,It contains the same 12 signs as the tropical zodiac but gradually moves with the stars and so is known as the sidereal zodiac.Because of this the indian sidereal zodiac is no longer aligned with the tropical zodiac.
By contrast,the zodiac used by modern astronomers is based on the constellations,huge unequal-sized groupings of stars and achieved its current form as recent as 1928.It contains 13 signs,the extra one being Ophiuchus,which has nothing to do with mainstream astrology,'

Pg 12 The Ultimate Astrologer by Nicholas Campion
In exploring this issue it must be always remembered that for the classical astrologer astrology is a self contained system operating on Neo Platonic and Pythagorean terms.Hence there is no room for a thirteenth sign in THAT system.

I have an extemely lucid,if acidic,explanation for this by John Frawley.He is one of the best astrologers in the world today.His erudition is impressive.This is taken from Chapter 18 'Some Popular Fallacies' from his book,The Real Astrology.

Fallacy:Ophiuchus,Arachnae,or whatever this years version might be,is the thirteenth sign of the zodiac,knowledge of which has been suppressed by ignorant astrologers\the Catholic church\the male sex\the Wicked Witch of the West.This revolutionises the whole of astrology.'

Fact:No,it doesnt.The zodiac is divided into twelve equal sections,which through the indescribable majesty of creation are mirrored in the constellations that bear the same names.It is not possible to discover a thirteenth twelfth.
Twelve is the number of celestial manifestation on Earth:the outward,expansive and returning facets of the Divine action-which we know as the three modes of cardinal.fixed and mutable-manifesting through the quaternary of earth,air,fire and water give (3 times 4) twelve.No amount of sleight of mind can make 3 times 4 produce thirteen.
So,Anibis,I'm curious.....I've noticed your interest in heliocentric astrology on others sites as well.....what draws you to it? What do you feel its possible importance could be for us?
And Deviadah,what is it about Ophiuchus that appeals to you?
Well, intuitively it just strikes me as the 'master' key for our solar system. Any geocentric system for any planet whatsoever is going, ultimately, to be a subset of the heliocentric. Also it coordinates astrology with astronomy; and as far as I am concerned the closer the two are mapped, the better. I am a proponant of scienctific understanding married with the spiritual 'meaning giving' process. I also think that the heliocentric astrology almost places the human heart at the solar center itself, which is appropriate IMO. It's like an astrological map drawn from the vantage point of Tipareth...

The other thing is that it greatly enables the construction of extra-planetary calendars through the fact that it is possible to ascertain the Nodes of these planets. I was able to cook up a working mercurial calendar by tracking these.

I have a lot to learn, though... The more I look into astrology, the more I like it... Strange how it seems to become such a different discipline than the occult. I wonder why? Intuitively, you'd think they were connected, but it doesn't seem to play out that way too much.

-Anibis
Also about Ophiuchus, I tend to concur that its a bit inelegant to insert a 13th, very tiny sign into the zodiac... When was this originally used? What culture? How does it effect the gestalt of the astrological system?

I do know that there is precedent for having a 13th month. In the egyptian calendar there were 12 months of 30 days, and an extra 13th month of 5 days named for the Children of Nu. The maya also used 13 extensively, and I believe the druids may have had a (13x28)+1 calendar (Thirteen moons of 28 days plus an extra day: Arguelles uses this for his 'Dreamspell system'). HOWEVER in every one of these cases, we are talking about a temporal measure, however, in the case of Ophiuchus, the attempt is made to introduce a new(old?) spacial division into the 12-fold system. I'm not convinced yet of the elegance of this. What about the whole system of Decans and quinances etc... does this go out the window with Ophiuchus? Just curious. My GF would be Ophiuchan if it were 'for real'. So, with all that being said, what's the support for the idea? C'mon Ophiuchus, defend thyself!

-An
I agree with you that its the master key.The sun dominates and is the heart of our solar system,no accident that it rules that organ in astrology.And you only need to look at our solar system and the relative sizes of the planets(I'll include the sun and the moon under that even though they are properly called luminaries) to see our massive sun dwarfing the rest of them,even the great chronocrators,Jupiter and Saturn.

They are like two marbles next to a basketball.And as for pluto...pooh!....nothing.Many people who 'know' astrology seem to forget that its applied to a very real actuality,thats its not just symbolic.Size and proximity matter in terms of influence.

You calculated your own calendar....I'm tremendously impressed by that....being a natural humanities student I've found the calculations necessary for astrology have not come easily.....I did the calcs exam for my qualifications last year and by the end of three hours my brain was like a piece of chewed string.

There is so much to learn,I feel I will be studying it for the rest of my life.Particularly as so many astrologers are fighting their way out of the sprawling,ill informed,amorphous mass that modern astrology has become.The new developments are really exciting..... 'the tradition' was rediscovered and the worlds most dedicated and competent astrologers realised how the art had been betrayed and trivialised......well,the new age might just find their complacent ownership of astrology being clawed back by the people who really know it.
An easy to understand definition of astrology seems to elude most people.Calling it an art or a science gives it a label,but one that doesnt explain anything.And calling it a science makes the scientists go crazy so I came up with these definitions.Try them on.

A system,or rather,a series of systems applied to a science.Which makes me a systems analyst.LOL....takes the new age out of it,doesnt it? But I'm not sure if it isnt a bit too dry.

A self contained symbolic system based on what can be seen by the human eye.

Of course that takes Uranus,Neptune and Pluto as well as the asteroids and centauric bodies out of the loop.Its more a definition of the tradition which goes back 2,500 years.A lot of weight in that.

DO NOT TALK TO ME ABOUT CHIRON. Laugh.
Who are the greatest living masters of the art at the moment, in your opinion? I ask because I'd like to know who to keep my eyes peeled for as I begin to really dive into astrology. I have not practiced casting charts or anything like that. I am a good tarot metaphysician and pathworker, so I have a sense of all the symbols, but the calculations are what's kept me at bay...

My sense is that if anything really grounds an energy that is considered 'mercurial' or 'martial' or whatever, it's the physical planet in question. This has to do with the whole relation of the four Qabbalistic worlds, since assiah, the physical world contains the other three, and acts as their 'base', in the world. The physical planets are the anchor for the energy, and the horoscope, or astrological projection is a bridge between those energies, and their macrosmic pattern, and us entities here and our soul/psyches, which through the aid of a common language, form themselves unconsciously into the same patterns as the heavens display. When that is geocentred, our souls and personalities take a certain terrestrial-based perspective which is functional and all that, but is not really aware of a reality outside itself. As soon as the patterning gets transfered to the Heliocentric point of reference, not only is consciousness still able to model itself on the terrestrial model, but it also gains a powerful sense of symmetry that helps it see a bigger picture that it's own perspective. Human consciousness goes stellar. I think the shift to a heliocentric model of the psyche will very much assist us in evolving our consciousness to match our science (Which is very much needed at the moment), since our science is already using the Helio measure.

The other possibility then exists, for actually constructing ephemeri for other planets, such as Jupiter or mercury. As an excercise, those sorts of ephemeri could really open up tremendous territory for 'psychonautical' exploration... (I would LOVE to see a Galactic ephemeris, by the way... I'm not sure if it's even possible, but THAT, my friends, would truly be the mother lode, so to speak...)

Tell me more about what's happening in astrology today, cuz I really don't know. Am I intuiting a general movement towards helio astrology and accurately sensing it's purpose?Anyone else doing these sorts of calendars? Believe it or not, it wasn't really hard. Now I have to admit, that the ones I made are actually based on nodal intersections with the earth's orbital plane, rather than the Suns (I think). Also they are measured in earth days. It would be also possible to construct a true Mercury Calendar, as some have. Mine is more of a terrestrial-Mercury guage. I mean Mercury is not really that tough, when you think about it right? It's pretty much 88.0 Earth days in orbit (and a mercurial day is exactly twice that. Wierd, eh?), You just gotta isolate it's North Node, and then you have a reasonably accurate 88 day period from 'spring to spring'. Mars is also close to an even number of earth days: 687.0, more or less. Anything that oscillates regularly across a definate point of measurement can have a calender written onto it... Good for the sanity, methinks... the ole' grego rian is a little 'clunky', to put it mildly... Makes us all a little batty in my opinion...
-Anibis

Here are links to more astronomical attempts to create extra-terrestrial calendars. They're cool, but at least one of them is into the ole' James Randi, so I image wouln't be too thrilled to listen to me, Lol... anyways:

http://pweb.jps.net/~tgangale/mars/mercury/gangale.htm
http://www.blort.net/subs/genmerch/calendars/mercury/mercury.htm
http://pweb.jps.net/~tgangale/mars/mercury/moss.htm

This Blort fellow actually proposes an earth calendar with a 6 day week, and has actually remove Thursday from the week ! They soooo, don't get what the ancients were actually doing... dangerous monkeys... A week without Jupiter would not be a good week.
WHOOAWW!.....a Galactic ephemeris.....makes me dizzy and go weak at the knees....the day I get my hands on that baby is the day when I've finally got to where I always wanted to be..

Whoa,now that's a post,Anibis.'Scuse me while I get up from the floor and dust myself off.

The finest astrologers in the world today?

Robert Hand,Robert Zoller and Robert Schmidt,architects of Project Hindsight are venerated,Benjamin Dykes,John Frawley are among them.These are well known,all published.There are maybe fifty people in the world deserving the description.

Bernadette Brady,Demetra George are also very good.

What I would do before diving in is prepare yourself with a historical overview so you have an idea of all the major players over the last two and a half millenia as well its beginnings,early development,periods of great flowering and decline.And importantly how the sorry state of affairs astrology has been in for the last century came about.You'll pick alot about astrological theory just by reading about its history.

Going back to an earlier post where you wrote 'strange how it seems to become such a difficult discipline than the occult...you'd think they were connected' If you read 'The Fated Sky' by Bobrick Benson you'll see that alchemy and astrology have been inextricably entwined.Pick up "Chronology of the Astrology of the Middle East and the West By Period' by Robert Hand to go back to astrology's earliest beginnings.He's a scholar as well so his research always shows source material.

There are some excellent schools all over the world.A great teacher is invaluable.I feel blessed to have found mine.Books only take you so far.

Whats going on in astrology today?

Its a battleground.

Between those who dont want to rectify the mistakes of the past because it would mean they would have to admit they might be wrong and those who want to restore the integrity of the art.

John Frawleys 'The Real Astrology' is a great book to read if you want to know whats going on and learn alot at the same time as well as be amused by his acidic,pointed wit.I like him very much,he does satire well.
Great posts you two...

Well, I don't think it should be a constant 13th sign zodiac... more so an additional aspect. On the other hand I enjoy chaos at times so an uneven number is not that foreign to me.

But I must say that even 12 is uneven actually. It should be 10 signs!

Personally the Mayan calendar is by far the most interesting!

Todays date in the Mayan calendar! (http://www.pagetworld.co.uk/mayan.php)
What is your Mayan Sun sign? (http://www.mayanmajix.com/TZOLKIN/index.php)


Thanks Deviadah.....I'm finding this thread really stimulating......hard to keep up with in terms of all the different areas that get casually get thrown into the mix....is this how occultists think all the time?.......but its like the continuous alchemy story thread.....I guess I'll just have to keep up with everyone.....or self combust....

Ophiuchus is definitely an additional aspect to be aware of....as is Draco,the serpent of the serpent holder......those two have increasingly being claiming my attention for a while now......theres some wildly speculative stuff about them out there on the net that the proper astrologer in me deliberately sets aside.....but another facet keeps turning towards it...

Mmnnn......should be ten....there are sound reasons for that as well.....one area I'd really like to explore are the reasons for using the 12 divisions instead of 10......and to understand better the systems that do use the 10......there seems to be no wrong or right in this territory.....just different systems.

The Mayan calendar....well,that is just a stand alone.....so,Child of Chaos,what do you find so interesting about it? Is Quetzacoatl's prophesised return part of that?

Phoenix
01-06-2009, 05:43 PM
Link: Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)
Okay,I'm going to come back to Heliocentricity and Ophiuchus in a minute but one thing I want to show is the difference between modern astrology and the tradition,or Real Astrology as John Frawley calls it.

Best way to do that is a chart read in each method,I'm going to step out of the way and let a master do his thing,so I'll be using John Frawleys delineation of Hitlers chart using both methods.Its from his book Real Astrology.Its a bit of a read but worth it,imo.

Adolf Hitler

If traditional astrology was so successful,we might reasonably wonder what happened to it.Why was it replaced by the tepid banalities with which we are familiar today?....Let us conduct a test of at least as much scientific validity as any of the tests by which the scientific sceptics claim to have tested astrology.We shall take the birthchart of a wellknown person and subject it to cold readings by an astrologer from the past and one from the present.Unfortunately,all the ancient astrologers whom we invited to take part in this experiment were otherwise engaged,being fully occupied turning in their graves at the state of modern astrology;so we will have to use their writings.In the interest of scrupulous scientific fairness,we shall do the same with our representative modern.

We shall take as our subject a life whose proclivities are well documented:that of Adolf Hitler.

Even those modern astrologers who have taken sufficient trouble to look at Hitlers birthchart frequently confess a certain bafflement.While it is apparent that this is not someone whom we would necessarily wish to invite to tea,the depths of his nastiness elude modern astrological techniques.From the traditional perspective,these depths are quite clear.
The traditional method of judging a birth chart begins with assessing the temperament.This is,as it were,the cloth from which the person is cut.All the detail which we later see must be judged against this background,as if the details were embroidery on a garment......The fundamental question when determining for what purpose the garment is fit is whether the material is a delicate silk or a tough denim.

So in the person.Is he predominantly choleric,phlegmatic,sanguine or melancholic - or a mixture of two of these?

This balance is calculated according to the respective measure of hot,cold,moist and dry qualities,manifesting in their four possible combinations as earth,air,fire and water.......In most people there are one or two of these qualities which are notably strong.This balance shows which of the temperaments the person has:choleric (fiery) phlegmatic (watery) sanguine(airy) or melancholic(earthy).Far from just describing a set of mental habits,this balance tells us also about the persons appearance,the illnesses from which they are likely to suffer and much,much more.

Having this basic understanding of temperament is vital if we are to put the details which we find later in any meaningful context.

It is all very well knowing that the native will murder his granny;but does he beat her to death in a fit of choleric fury,or does he slowly poison her from sanguine curiosity?

Only a knowledge of temperament will tell.


I love Frawley because he teaches as he writes,he doesnt just tell.If its too boring for you,let me know.
The Modern,if attempting to look at Hitler on anything approaching this level,would note the number of planets in earth signs(Sun,Mars and Venus in Taurus,Moon and Jupiter in Capricorn) and decide that he must be earthy in nature.

Far from it:in traditional terms,the temperament is strongly choleric,or fiery.

So Hitler is choleric;the problems start when we consider HOW this choleric fire is going to find outlet.By its own hot,dry nature,Mars is the planet with natural affinity in the choleric temperament.Finding a strong,wellplaced Mars in the chart would suggest the native can successfully integrate into society as a warrior- in modern terms this often manifests as the professional athlete.

Hitlers Mars,however,is in a dreadful state.The Sun,which is also hot and dry and so might also allow positive expression of this choler,is also very weak.This choleric temperament,we begin to see,is going to manifest itself in the most appalling of ways.
At this stage in our judgement,our attention is struck by the placement of the fixed stars- that is what we normally refer to as 'stars' as opposed to the 'wandering stars',or planets....They are almost entirely ignored by modern astrology;as the following shows,this is something of an omission.

On Hitlers Midheaven is Praesepe,known to the Chinese as "Exhalation of piled up corpses'. The midheaven is the place in the chart particularly associated with career,or public image.Praesepe brings 'disease,disgrace,adventure,insolence,wantonness,b rutality'.

The Sun is on a particularly unpleasant star,Sharatan,which causes bodily injuries,unscrupulous defeat,destruction by fire,war or earthquake,while the Moon is on Facies,giving a violent death.Like Praesepe,Facies afflicts the eyesight...Hitlers physical eyesight was weak....

Finally,in itself if much less significance but important by virtue of its angularity is Mercury,falling on Vertex,the Andromeda Nebula,which repeats the testimony of afflicted sight and violent death.

The Real Astrology pg14
Well, maybe this can pin down where exactly occultists find issue with astrology. Where someone like say, Rob Brezny appears to be saying: I am contructing a story to tell on the basis of your chart, and it has nothing to do with fate, but rather a kindof age-old emotion laden symbolic structure and I'm gonna use it to craft a narrative that has positive psychological benefits for the astrologee, this chart of Hitler you mention is quite alarming because it seems to espouse a sense of Fate... Magicians aren't big fan's of fate... Destiny, maybe, but fate is a very dangerous and ugly one indeed. The adept is said to have 'erased the lines of fate', in a sense... Maybe that's why Peter Carroll poo pooed astrology. I mean, what do you say to someone who has such an inauspicious chart? Sorry, luck of the draw, you're fucked!?!? Know what I mean? Astrology could easily become the end, and persons the tools to that end, which is a very screwy world to live in.... How would you handle this?
-A-
Oh,Anibis....what are you doing to me?...LOL....its got to the point now that every time you post I take notes in point form so I can try to answer them.

I have so much backlog I'm going to end up with RSI.

And I have so much still to write on the Hitler chart comparison.Not to mention the heliocentric thread of the thread.Its kinda fun to try and keep up with that quicksilver mercurial mind of yours but little ole fixed earth me is starting to go a little loopy and fray at the edges.I think I also smell smoke.....

Ok,first with Hitlers chart,you have to remember its being read in hindsight with full knowledge of the man and the things he did....Use his power and position to have others kill millions of people in concentration camps,gas chambers then harvest the bodies or allow others to commit depraved acts on them while still alive.So we are dealing with a fucked unit here to start with...and we know it..which skews the reading a bit.Its easy to go hardcore.You dont have that information when you read for clients and temper your readings accordingly.

Rob Brezny...age old symbolic emotionladen tool...hmmmm.....where does the emotion come from....us or the tool?

What you have with the tradition is an extremely incisive tool that can be frightening in its clarity.I found it so at first,coming from the comforting 'tepid banalities' of modern astrology.And,at times,I still find it so.The tradition is something you immerse yourself in calmly and steadily.It challenges all of the chinks in the adepts armour.

How adept are we really?

How much have we 'erased the lines of fate'?

The language is strong and powerful,with emotional resonances we of this modern world are not always comfortable with.But you must always remember that we are dealing with a use of language that is worlds apart from the one we know.Having studied much history and being familiar with human development......having a historical perspective,so to speak.....has helped immeasurably in being able to face with detachment the torrid language of traditional astrology head on.Just read Foucault's 'Discipline and Punishment' to see how recently we have lifted ourselves from a violent and brutish way of living.

Modern astrology,to its credit, has tried to rectify the torrid,emotion laden language of the older writers,with mixed results.

Fate versus Destiny.Well,there is another thread all of its own.Personally I believe nothing can be fated,provided you can rise above.Or perhaps it can,I am no oracle so I cannot say.I have always believed the more you raise your conciousness the less likely you are to be bound.....to anything.Manmade rules dont apply anymore.

Mastery is the key.And it only comes with challenge.

I dont know Peter Carroll so I cant comment but I will say there are too many people who deride it who have never taken the time to study it.And if they have studied it they never give their system,length of study AND practice or teachers or schools so I cannot judge the calibre of their opinion.Unless I know this these opinions are just so much air to me.How can you have a valid opinion on something you dont really understand?
And I sense a hint of fear within that dismissive derision,scratch under the skin of most people and you will find superstitious fears alive and well no matter how much contemptuous skepticism and braggadocio they throw at you.

Astrology,at its most powerful,can blow you away,fracturing your world view,even those of us who swim in familiar waters.It still does that to me at times.

So what would I say to someone with such an inauspicious chart?

Ah,synchronicity......I only had this conversation yesterday.I have had a sabbatical from readings and a friend offered to send people to me but I had to confess to him the dilemma I am in.I had to mis\fortune to study modern astrology first and I can no longer do those readings without feeling I am taking money for a lie.

Knowing better now,the conundrum I am now in is what to say to someone,as you so delicately put it,with an inauspicious chart.To ignore the negative aspects of a chart is cowardly and so very modern astrology which wants everything to be sugar and spice and all things nice.Pap,in short.

People arent like that.

The answer is at the moment I dont know.I have to begin to explore the ways of how you can,with clarity and compassion,say these things to someone so they can go away and understand them without feeling doomed but empowered.Its quite a responsibility,Anibis,and one I take seriously.So when I have worked it out I will let you know.

I know,first hand,the damage an irresponsible,carelessly worded reading can do.I dont want that on my conscience.

Phew! I think thats all,back to Hitler.
" Where someone like say, Rob Brezny appears to be saying: I am contructing a story to tell on the basis of your chart, and it has nothing to do with fate, but rather a kindof age-old emotion laden symbolic structure and I'm gonna use it to craft a narrative that has positive psychological benefits for the astrologee,"
-A-

Yes,I'd agree with that definition,its a very good way of expressing it and there's no doubt that astrology can be used as a psycho-therapeutic tool.

The only problem is with the delineation,or interpretation before he goes on to tell the story.What method is he using? How good a practitioner of the craft is he? Only a good practitioner can tell you that.What I hope to show you with the comparisons of Hitlers chart is how much pertinent information is completely missed by many astrologers because they studied a truncated version of the real art.
I am listening... very interested....
-A-
Actually, it makes me think of Tarot. When I do a reading, I will always try to interpret the cards as a possible narrative, and in particular the more 'negative cards' as being types of challenge to face. I don't go into notions of doom or fate, just because that is not at all helpful to the querant. I always make it clear that the querant can choose to disregard the reading if they like; it's a form of play.... The reason I do this so that instead of feeling fated, the querant feels challenged. This encourages active engagement rather than passive acceptance, and as we both know, a poorly phrased reading can really really hurt a person. There is an enormous capacity for self fulfilling prophecy in the human being, and we do need to be aware of this when we interpret signs of any sort for them, I'd say... I want the querant to engage their active storytelling abilities to engage in the reading, especially when they're contemplating it in the future I don't want them to think, oh, so and so told me this would happen... Don't know if that puts me in with the modernists or not... Sorry for distracting you from your discussion of the chart; I'm totally interested in what you have to say (and yet a bit perturbed that there may be a 'pile of corpses' somewhere in my chart, lol!). Cheers,
Anibis.
I think the most accurate oracle I know is the I Ching...
lol.....yeah,I know....exhalation of piled corpses....charming....well,thats the chinese for you....in the west that star is known as Praesepe.

Found a good article for you by Robert Hand on Fate versus Freewill....he found the answer to it in the Corpus Hermeticum where Hermes is talking to his disciple,Tat.Thought the alchemist in you would like that.Of course you could trot over to Astrodienst and look up the piece yourself.Its at the end of the article "Towards a postmodern Astrology'.....I do have a backlog.....lol

I think you'd appreciate the thoughtful,scholarly tone of Robert Hands work....John Frawley is pretty acerbic...he writes like a drag queen on speed.....I like the pugnacious astringency of his writing style but its not for everyone....

The I Ching....I only have a cursory knowledge of that system.But for my money,astrology is the supreme predictive art.You can't beat it for detail when its in the hands of a skilled practitioner....want to know if you're going to end up with an arrow in your thigh as you go into battle.....or perhaps pinpoint exactly when and where the Messiah is going to be born.......or when someones gonna try to blow you up.......and the perennial favourite,the day you're going to die...lol....beat that,other predictive systems.

I can document all of the above,if you wish.

Its scary at times....thats why they tried to ban it and outlaw it for centuries....oh,and kill practitioners....and its dangerous in the hands of unbalanced egotists.Astrology only was allowed to thrive in the twentieth century because it went almost purely psychological and spiritual.....Alan Leo only missed going to jail because he claimed it was psychological.

So the real magic was taken out of the art because powerful magic scares people and humans tend to destroy what they fear.
......back in the saddle.....

'Having laid the foundation to the traditional judgement,let us subject this chart to our blind reading by two,astrologers,one ancient,one modern.

Our modern writer,plucked at random from the shelf,but by no means among the most downmarket of the genre (P Tillot,Tybol Astrological Almanac for 1999) outlines her method of judging a natal chart.
We start by assessing the sign on the Ascendant.....With Libra on the ascendant,our native is 'an easygoing,charming and kind personality who is diplomatic,co-operative and will do anything for peace and harmony.He is intellectually intelligent but inclined to indecision and easily influenced by others.'

We must then look to the ascendant ruler,Venus.Falling in Taurus and the seventh house,our native is'pleasant,kind,faithful,appreciates good manners;has a love of luxury,especially the home;good voice,good taste;interested in gardening;can be very possessive.'
The sun in Taurus adds a stoical nature and further concern with relationships.The Moon in Capricorn gives a 'reserved and cautious nature;....ambitious and hard worker....has a desire for success.'
We can then continue through various other points too tedious to list.

(and I cannot be bothered typing out anymore of this kind of cookbook dancing bear astrology...monkeyblood)

Once this list of points has been noted,the astrologer reaches the next stage,called 'synthesis'.This is when all the various points have to be joined together to make a coherent picture.If we imagine a recipe which reads 'Carefully weigh out all your ingredients,then toss them into a bowl in whatever order takes your fancy,' we have an idea of the art of synthesis.

So I hope you can begin to see how damaged modern astrology is when it comes to understanding the full range of a person's psyche.Just tell me where the ability and desire to mass murder millions of people and also try to impose their world view on every other living being on the planet comes from in that reading.Certainly not from the shallow degenerate practice of modern astrology.I'll just leave you with one further comment from John Frawley.

'...were Mr Hitler to wander into a contemporary astrologer's den,he would no doubt hear what a difficult childhood he had,how his creative drives are frustrated and how he feels that even those closest to him fail to understand him completely,probably finishing by being told that he has a vocation as a healer.'

The Real Astrology by John Frawley pg 14-16
almost there.....

"From our blind reading from the past,we shall turn to Claudius Ptolemy.Remembering that our assessment of the temperament has already provided us with all the information above,we can concentrate our attention on just one point: the salient Mars\Venus conjunction.This is squared by Saturn,but more importantly,by the traditional technique of antiscion,Saturn falls exactly on this conjunction,bringing all three of these planets into immediate contact.

Antiscion is a technique almost entirely forgotten today,without which an accurate judgement of a chart is impossible;it gives what is literally the shadow of each planet(this must not be understood in the Jungian sense).

The relative strengths of the planets is something else that is largely ignored by the moderns.In Hitler's chart there is no strong planet.To use technical labels,Jupiter is in its fall,the moon and mars are in detriment;Mercury and the Sun are peregrine.This is a strong indication of the degeneracy of the nature.

Even Venus which has strength by virtue of falling in its own sign,Taurus,is handicapped by being retrograde and by its immediate contact with the two malefics,Mars and Saturn.This contact is all the more serious because both the malefics are weak,and the weaker the malefics are,the worse their effects.Occurring in fixed signs,this gives an unshakeable malaise.

According to Ptolemy,this planetary combination....In Hitlers chart...is most definitely not in an honourable position,with all these planets severely afflicted....Ptolemy suggests that in these cases,it 'makes his subjects robbers,pirates,....godless,without affection,insulting,crafty,thieves,perjurers,murde rers,...robbers of temples,and of tombs,and utterly depraved.'All these points would manifest through the choleric,but degenerately choleric,temperament.
'We might feel that Ptolemy has given us a picture somewhat closer to the mark than the peaceloving gardener that our modern blind reading has produced-not bad for someone writing almost 2000 years before the birth....It is no doubt true that we could find a modern astrologer who could give a more accurate analysis of his character from a blind reading;but our example modern is representative.

We must also note that while our modern does at least claim to be an astrologer,there is no evidence to suggest that Ptolemy ever cast a horoscope in his life.He was merely an encyclopaedist recording current practice.That an astrological layman could give so accurate a picture is entirely through the validity of the traditional method.

The Real Astrology by John Frawley pg 16
The horizon is the line that splits the chart in half from east to west.

Forgot to put this bit in.Once more from John Frawley.

'With most of the planets above the horizon (the horizontal axis of the chart) and in angular houses (the angular houses are 1st,4th,7th and10th) this will find its outlet on the world:
Were the planets hidden below the horizon,Hitler would have spent his life thinking dreadful thoughts,rather than acting them out.'
I found this page.In a world of disinformation this page is solid.

And its written by Chris Brennan,who is a 23 year old maven.He already has his degree from Kepler College which is one of the worlds finest astrological institutions.

[link broken]

There are also some interviews with Chris on You tube.Worth watching
Wow, awesome thread. Unfortunately, I am guilty of being woefully ignorant on the subject. I am just beginning my education in astrology and remembering things like that Mars rules Aries makes me want to ask for a little gold star from the teacher.
However, astrology certainly has immeasurable significance in alchemy. Most especially because the subtle forces operating through the large are the same forces operating through the small.
http://www.holylandmap.net/anthro/enearly.files/image002.jpg

One of the largest aspect of medicinal alchemy has to do with understanding the operations of the planets and zodiac in the body. Thus, we may make of tincture of Mars, say made from Coriander seeds. While it is important to understand the effect a tincture of coriander seeds has on the body, what is important, from an alchemist's point of view, is that the body is imbibing the powers of Mars, working through this particular plant. This may serve to realign imbalanced aspects within the person's chart.

In the work with the Archeus of water, each of the separate 12 fractions of the water (salt of fire, sulphur of fire, mercury of fire, etc) can be attributed to one of the 12 signs of the zodiac.

The work is meant to unite heaven and earth. For terrestrial matter to more fully express and transmit the celestial powers. I know there is more I could say, but it's late and I want to go lie down and watch my favorite show, Lost

Cheers
.....You're watching Lost already.....I am envious....we have to wait another week before it starts again.....

Hey,thanks for the positive comments....I was worried I might lose people because I was getting too technical...

Mars in Aries....rulership....such an important thing to understand....congratulations for having that under your belt....the dual rulership model is one of the primary models to learn in the foundations of astrological knowledge.I'll post it if you like.

In spite of what I know I feel I am a student of astrology,I've had to go back to basics that are never taught in modern astrology.In the tradition it seems it shares the same fundamental roots as alchemy,my teacher is well versed in alchemical philosophy.Its all new to me like the Aristotleian Primary\Primitive Qualities of hot,dry,moist and cold.

I was taught that the primitive qualities inform or act upon each other to create or scaffold the four elements.Is this the basis for alchemical practice as well? Just learning that principle began to change all that dry intellectual astro knowledge into something....I dont know how to say it but I felt a sense of the magic\energy that informs alchemical practice.I think...dont want to be presumptuous around a bunch of alchemists.

Love what youre doing in your lab...and with your medicinal research....

Awani
01-06-2009, 05:50 PM
Perhaps a resource that might be of some interest:

Astrology Theologized: The Spiritual Hermeneutics of Astrology and Holy Writ (http://www.anna-kingsford.com/english/Works_by_Anna_Kingsford_and_Maitland/Texts/014-OAKM-I-Astrology-web.htm) by Valentin Weigel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentine_Weigel)

http://www.anna-kingsford.com/images/Astrology/Astrology_01.JPG
I must say I find it heartening to find such an interest in astrology from such high calibre occultists as yourselves.

I would hate to think you would study some of the substandard forms of astrology that are around today....really the tradition is what I would recommend for alchemists.

Robert Zoller is a master of the astrological tradition.

I'll try to find the most trustworthy schools online for those interested.

Particularly for medicinal alchemy,having the correct astrological knowledge is essential(I'm assuming here that a birthchart is used?)

Using Hitlers chart as an example....with all those planets in earth signs that he's very earthy and heal accordingly....when actually his basic temperament is choleric(fire)
What informs astrology is not myth....myth is valid however....but philosophy-Pythagorean,Aristotleian,Platoism and Hermetic.

D. O'Connor
This is taken from a talk Robert Hand gave titled 'Towards a Post-Modern Astrology' in 2005.
I'm going to do it in several parts because I typed the whole thing up and just as I went to post,the connection went down.We've had heaps of storms this summer and its playing havoc with my internet connection.

Fate versus Freewill

There is the wonderful problem of fate versus freewill.I actually have arrived at an answer to this......I found the answer in one of the Stoebaeus fragments of the Corpus Hermeticum,in which Hermes is talking to his disciple,Tat,as the name is usually transliterated.
Tat asks,'Tell me again about fate,providence and necessity'. And Hermes after much intermediate material ends up with the statement along the lines of,'Fate concerns the body,necessity concerns that part of the mind that works only with the body,and providence is concerned with the mind that is fully concious'.
What they make clear in this statement is there is no one such thing as fate.There is a fate that is due to our being material beings of a certain species.No matter how hard you try,no amount of freewill will ever convert you to a dog or a cat in this lifetime.
You cannot fly without a plane - unless perhaps you are a certain kind of meditator-you cannot walk through walls without a door........you are limited by natural law.This is the fundamental meaning of fate in ancient Greek philosophy.It is physical law.
.......Then there is the really big part of fate;there is the fate due to ignorance,called necessity.We get ourselves caught up in situations where we simply cannot conceive of an alternative,because we have all these considerations about what must be so and what must not be so,and we are determined by the consequences of past decisions and current stupidities.
That is what our fate consists of.It has nothing to do with planets!
cont.......And then finally there is the other fate that is absolutely irrevocable,called providence.You have no choice but to be who you are.Your choice is to be who you are at the highest possible level or not.
And I would go so far as to say that who you really are preexists who you are at the present moment,and it is pulling you forward to itself,and that pull is inevitable.
Your getting all the way there,becoming a fully realized being,is not inevitable.Circumstances,accidents and of course the ever-present stupidity,or unconciousness-whatever you want to call it-will all in varying degrees prevent us from getting to that perfect self-realization.
But it is not written in the stars whether we will,or will not,ever be fully realized.
What is written in the stars is how to do it-if we could but read the chart from that point of view.
This is one of the things the 20th century has taught us,but the 20th century has been a little weak on how to do it.

(Modern astrology is also known as 20th century astrology-monkeyblood)

Whereas I have found techniques in Greek and Medieval astrology that actually suggest how it can be done,how it can be read in the chart.
Post modern astrology will not be a fatalistic fortune-telling astrology,it will be an astrology of self-actualization and conciousness,that just happens to include all of the rest of astrology.

We evaluate,we judge,and we integrate.That is what I see coming.

Robert Hand

'Fate concerns the body, necessity concerns that part of the mind that works only with the body, and providence is concerned with the mind that is fully concious'.I like this point, and the fact that fate = natural law

Speaking as a person with a strong belief in will I would also like to add that Free Will is impossible in a world that is Unreal. Since will is deeply connected to freedom, and freedom is connected to reality (i.e. the world in which one lives has got to be free for freedom and Free Will to exist).

Now the world is not free i.e. it is a reality that is wrong (since freedom is right, and slavery is wrong). In other words the world is Unreal and therefore Free Will is impossible!

But there is hope... the next step in the human evolution will take place in the mind, not in the physical realm. And I think this is a lot what 2012 is all about: The mental re-evoultion of the Human Race!


....hmmm.....2012.....a mental re-evolution....I sincerely hope so....I have some interesting information on the venus transit in June 2012....should I post here or another thread?......also something quite important happening around sept\oct 2008....cant wait to see what it is.......not so long to wait..

...should I post here or another thread?
I think you should start a thread and call it 2012, every occult/esoteric forum on the entire net has at least one such thread. It would be a shame if we did not!


Guido Bonatti 13th century astrologer from his Book of Astronomy translated by Benjamin Dykes.

Chapter 7- If someone wanted to practise alchemy.

At one time people applied themselves....to the art of alchemy: and lost their work,time and expenses,nor does this happen to them because of one error,but from many:....they do not know how to come to the conclusion of what they have practiced;

sometimes because they do not know how to proportion the bodies with the spirits;

sometimes they do not know how to elect an hour nor an Ascendant;

nor how to place the moon where she ought to be placed in order to perfect the work;

and this is one of the greatest errors which there can there can be for an alchemist.

Nor do they even know how to adapt the planet signifying the matter which they intend to work on.Whence if someone wanted to practice something concerning all these things,and he wished that you would elect the hour of its inception for you,put the Moon in common signs,cleansed of all impediments...defects...and bad condition;
and let the Ascendant be a common sign,and let its Lord be adapted [or fit] and free from impediment.
I've developed a series of 'tells' to determine the quality of an astrologers knowledge.I'm still a student but I know more than a lot of people so I'm going to post these tells so it might make it easier to navigate through the quagmire that the Corpus Astrologica has become.Hopefully you'll miss a few of the fruitless cul de sacs I've wasted my time and money on.
THE ZODIAC MEANS CIRCLE OF ANIMALS

WRONG!!!!!! This is quite a common mistake that makes its way through a lot of different esoteric fields.I've found it in authors ranging from Manly P Hall,Zecharia Sitchin to Nicholas Campion( a particularly careless mistake from an astrologer of his reputation). I find it hard to trust the research and theories of authors who make a mistake as basic as this.

I mean this is where thinking stops and reading starts.Especially if its published in a book by an author with a few letters after their name.

For the definition of zodiac I'm going to use the admirable Fred Gettings' Arkana Dictionary of Astrology pg 556

'The term zodiac is shamelessly misunderstood in its strictest meaning and etymology,so that there is now much confusion in the non-specialist mind about a thing which at one time was not confusing at all.
The zodiac is properly called zodiacus, a Latin term derived from the Greek zodion,itself etymologically connected with the word zoon,which is difficult of translation,but which is certainly linked with the idea of 'life' or with 'living beings'.
The popular derivations insist that the Greek zodiac was a circle of animals,which is simply not true:
it was a circle of living beings- a concept which of course links with the living beings of Ezekiel,associated with the Cherubim as the beings who dwell outside of time (the limits of time being marked in the ancient cosmoconception by the Sphere of Saturn)

Just thinking through the symbols of the zodiac you can see how inaccurate the statement is.

You've got a ram(Aries) Bull (Taurus) lion (leo)......all animals....so far,so good for the circle of animals theory.
It gets shaky with the twins (Gemini) virgin (Virgo) and waterbearer (Aquarius).....but in a pinch you could say humans are mammals therefore animals.Its getting very Cinderella now though......you know the bit where the ugly stepsister slices off her heel to get her foot in the slipper.
You can also put Sagittarius under that umbrella as he's half horse\half human.
Then the theory really starts to get bent out of shape with the crab(Cancer) scorpion (Scorpio) and the fish(pisces).The Sea goat (Capricorn) doesnt fit either and as for the scales(Libra)....there is no way an implement could be considered an animal.

Bad research....lazy thinking....half assed knowledge passing itself off as the authentic stuff.....welcome to the Corpus Astrologica as it is today!

NB I was looking through some old notes from one of the leading astrologers in Australia,he's been around for decades,has a school of some repute in Melbourne and when looking at his definition of zodiac there is the same old circle of animals being trotted out.
And here's another one...they just keep cropping up and from Rudolf Steiner no less!...... from 'At home in the Universe' which is a series of lectures he did in 1923.....pg 35....hmmph.....he was using it to push a theory about the difference between animal and humans......kaput goes that theory.
I'm really into beginning to incorporate the use of sound in my meditations in order to make them more powerful for me in terms of deepening the trance state as well as accessing them more easily.I found this interesting section on the music of astrology in Sacred Sounds by Ted Andrews.

'The solar system has its own octave that vibrates in harmony with all the other solar systems in the universe.Each planet within the solar system has its own distinct tone that is part of the octave.Together,the planets form a composition.
Just as with the planets,the signs of the zodiac have also had musical tones assigned to them....foremost of those who worked with the tonal zodiacs were Ptolemy, Johannes Kepler,..Rosicrucian Max Heindel and Rudolf Steiner promoted a tonal Zodiac based upon tonal fifths.
....(another) is based upon the chromatic scale,beginning with middle C.It relates these tones in the order normally associated with the various signs of the zodiac.Thus middle C becomes Aries,C- sharp becomes Taurus etc.
When we were born,the stars and the planets were in a particular position within the universe.The tones and harmonies of these heavenly bodies at the time you were born are also living within you.[i]Truly,as above so below-eh?-monkeyblood
The position of the stars and planets hold the patterns of our strongest potentials and our greatest learnings.Working with them and bringing them into harmony and symphony with our own lives is an aspect of alchemy.
....Johannes Kepler established correlations between astrological aspects and consonances of music,based upon their mathematical relationships.A trine,for example,is an aspect in which the planets are 120 degrees apart.This gives it a ratio of 360:240 or 3:2.This is the mathematical ratio for the musical interval of a perfect fifth.
To hear ones astrological chart played musically is at once eerie and awesome.Musically it resonates deep within us.'
'Another powerful way of using the mantram Om is in conjunctionwith the musical tones associated with the astrological chart.This particular method corresponds to forms of transcendental meditation [where] the individual is given a three syllable mantram that is his or hers alone.
In astrology,three predominant parts of our astrological chart are linked to the signs in which the sun,the moon and ascendant were located at the time of birth.....aka the primary triad-monkeyblood
determine the notes for each of these aspects....and,you have,in essence,created your own unique mantram.'

Sacred Sounds
Ted Andrews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjg5hU3MfIw

Play_Dough
04-12-2009, 10:55 PM
What I have found out (partially), so far.......... (expressed as opinion):

The ancient art of astrology is intimately related to the science of alchemy.

Today (April 12th 2009) is Easter Sunday (Happy Easter to all!) and the events associated with Easter (Christian cosmology) are powerfully associated with alchemy, astrology, the stone, gold, Prima Matter, transformation, transmutation and the secret workings of Saturn.

On Easter Sunday the Christ was (is) released from the tomb to ascend to the heavens.

Connecting the dots.......

- "Putrefaction is so effective that it destroys the old nature and form of the rotting bodies; it transmutes them into a new state of being to give them a totally new fruit. Everything that has live, dies; everything that is dead putrefies and finds a new life." (Pernety, 1758)

- Saturn reigns over Nigredo
On the mythological level,' nigredo' signifies the difficulties which we must overcome on his journey through the underworld. Nigredo is sometimes called ‘blacker than the blackest black’. Hercules had to accomplish twelve, almost impossible, tasks. The pilgrim traditionally encounters shadows, monsters, demons. In the ancient mysteries the candidates had to undergo difficult, sometimes painful and even dangerous initiation tests.

In alchemy, one of the symbols of nigredo is the ‘decapitation’, and also the ‘raven’s head’ (caput corvi). Those symbols refer to the dying of the common man, the dying of his inner chaos and doubt because he is unable to find the truth in himself. In one of his works, Hercules cleanses the Augias stables. It is the cleansing of all the impurities in oneself.

‘Matter’ has to be stripped of its superfluities in order to arrive at the center, which contains all the power of ‘the mixture’. The seed is the essence and contains all the essential powers of the body. One has to go to the center of his problems, to the center of his emotions, to the center of himself. There is the power of transformation.

Saturn is the planet that rules nigredo. Saturn as an alchemical symbol is used, like Mercurius, as a symbol of chaos, the prima materia as rough stone, and as the philosopher’s stone. These are all symbols for man at the beginning of the alchemical process. Saturn, with his traditional scythe and hourglass, is the god of death and putrefaction, from which new life will arise.

Some of the information (above) has been copied from (link) :
http://www.soul-guidance.com/houseofthesun/alchemy%202.htm
I am in agreement with the referenced materials.

connecting the dots (continued) .....

In spiritual alchemy, 'The Christ" represents 'gold', "Jesus' represents 'matter'.

Prima materia is the human being (material body) in an 'unawakened state' (spiritually dead, unaware of the existence of 'other realms' and alternate realities).

'Christ' (gold) remains in the tomb (physical body) 'all day Saturday' or, translated, until the workings of Saturn (Saturn = Saturday) release the 'gold' from the stone.

The processes of Saturn are unique with each individual, however the desired result is identical in all instances, and that result is to ultimately 'extract the gold from the stone'.

The alchemical interpretation(s) of 'Jesus on the Cross' and 'Jesus in the tomb' are, somewhat, identical (although 'reversed' temporally).
By 'reversed' what it is that is meant is that, alchemically speaking, the 'dead mater' starts in the dark tomb as 'Prima Matter' (tomb and occupant 'are one') and then proceeds, under the supervision of Saturn (processes) until the 'dweller in the tomb' has an 'Ah Ha!' in the form of an awakening which marks the start of the Alchemical processes. This 'ah-ha' is the symbolic exclamation of 'discovering the stone'.

The 'Ah-Ha awakening' is the realization that the present configuration (mixture) of our 'mercury, salt and sulphur' (ourselves) can be transformed, re-mixed, re-blended and 're-born' anew.

The part of us that, initially, is repelled by and resists the new ideas and revelations is, metaphorically speaking, 'The Stone". Perhaps the mantra of 'the stone' is "I can't", "that's impossible", "This is ridiculous" ... or some variation.

As 'the stone' is digested and eaten ('I can't is replaced with 'I can and I am') then we, as a result, are refined (metaphorically) into 'gold' and all obscurity is vanquished as we gradually merge with 'perfection' and regain our genuine and 'original' status (gold, no matter how badly corrupted can be restored by refinement). We 'ascend' from 'The Below' (our relative starting point) to "The Above" (new circumstances and wellbeing). There is infinite 'above' and infinite 'below'.

The 'blessed trinity' of alchemy in 'the below' is mercury, sulphur and salt. They represent mind/thought, personality/disposition and a material matrix/context. These three components (mercury, sulphur and salt) are separated and continually re-mixed by the alchemist to arrive at ever more pleasing results.

The 'blessed trinity' of alchemy in 'The Above' is space/time and consciousness. With the powers of consciousness resembling 'God-like' powers.

As such, alchemy is the science of self-transformation that can and does release us from the confinement of mater (the matrix of salt?) and replaces our confinement (a result of Natural Justice) with a wholesome mastery and eternal life.

Our 'natural condition' (the alchemist's goal) is one of great wealth, great health, long life, joy, contentment and 'fill in the blank' according to your personal preferences.
We do not 'strive' to attain these blessings (per se) we simply remove the inner obstacles to allow the manifestation (appearance) of 'the all good'.

The Emerald Tablet is the alchemist's 'road-map', but in a most peculiar way.
As we succeed with our alchemical endeavors The Emerald Tablet evolves with us and takes on a greater and greater significance (subsequent stunning re-interpretations).

In other words, we first read The Emerald Tablet as a matter of curiosity and it is perplexing and seems nonsensical and enigmatic. As we advance along our alchemical path the enigmatic, perplexing and mysterious Emerald Tablet gradually reveals it's secrets. It is by this method (subsequent revelations from the tablet) that we know that our alchemical efforts are rightly aligned (producing favorable results).

This was an ever so brief summary of the ancient astrological cosmology (and the bible) and the insights that it can provide for the evolving alchemist.

Alchemy, Astrology and The Tarot are, in my opinion, yet another 'blessed trinity' of our most sacred art.

Peace, Love, Light and Cappuccino!
On this Day of Easter
April 12th 2009

.

Awani
04-13-2009, 12:48 AM
Good post...


The ancient art of astrology is intimately related to the science of alchemy.

Indeed!


On Easter Sunday the Christ was (is) released from the tomb to ascend to the heavens.

Yeah, just like the Phoenix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology))!

:cool:

horticult
04-13-2009, 12:17 PM
Well, now I no more wonder why adepts hide everything so carefully.