View Full Version : for those spirit=matter proponents out there

04-05-2013, 05:17 AM
a question.
if you say spirit=matter, youre implying that the male body has a corresponding male spirit and the female has the corresponding female spirit.


for matter is condensed spirit

if this is so, how do you explain gays and lesbians?

because to me, if i believe that spirit=matter, a male spirit projecting a female body is not possible if matter equals spirit. only a male body must be projected by a male spirit.

you hear our gay brothers telling us, "they are female trapped in a males body" of our lesbian sisters "males trapped in female bodies."

for if matter=spirit, then theoretically there should be only males and females and no gays and lesbians for the right spirit would project the corresponding body

so it must be that spirit is independent of matter, that matter is not equal to spirit?

how would you explain this alchemist brothers?

04-05-2013, 06:11 AM
Lol You even see Spirit as solely dual?

Physical Males and Females, have both polarities within them (as does all matter). Tis energy/frequency/vibration. It may have been of a polarity/frequency to manifest itself one way, then due to [insert infinite variables here], changed frequencies along the way. It has no real bearing on anything.

They, like straights, will have to find someone of appropriate complimentary energy/spirit to be with - and of opposite physical-gender if they want kids (ive seen animals even do this, Natural expression in Nature, two gay males will want a kid, the more "male" of them finds a suitable female, apparently there is an agreement in place, as the two males will get the kid, or vise-versa with two females... like SL says, tis all about agreements.)
Or adopt. Or use modern science (which still gets materials from somewhere - Divine Coincidence putting right seed with right egg? ;) ).

To be All, and One, means infinite adaption within the self, and the All/One.


04-05-2013, 06:41 AM
I'd like to add that Spirit is neither male nor female in the way we view these terms, Spirit would be androgynous in this manner.

Also if you believe what ALL pre-christian/pagan religious beliefs of the subject say, males have a female Spirit/Higher Self/ Spirit Guide/Guardian Angel and females have a male Spirit/Higher Self/ Spirit Guide/Guardian Angel. Just an interesting fact to help out :cool:

04-05-2013, 02:09 PM
a question.
if you say spirit=matter, youre implying that the male body has a corresponding male spirit and the female has the corresponding female spirit.


what you are describing here, the male and female spirits corresponding to their male and female body, I would describe as Quintessences, or even Operative Spirits (after they've been joined together). These are different from Spiritis Mundi, which exists in a state of infinite potential--potential of manifestation, potential of energy, potential of direction, etc; and even different from other types of Spirit.

To say it simply, matter is condensed Spirit and contains material spirits.

But I would agree with one point, that matter is not equivalent to Spirit. My definition of Spirit is without form and void; Matter with form and void. Void in this sense to mean space. Obviously matter separates from Spirit, but it is pure manifest Spirit. At least until it's manifest, then the laws of generation and growth and cycles kick in. These laws seem to me to be the result of Spirit's potential.

It's also important to remember that the Male and Female most likely represent archetypes rather than the physical definitions of man and woman. Also important to know what definitions of Spirit and Matter people are working beneath. Can't have a good philosophical debate without properly understood definitions.

Physical Males and Females, have both polarities within them (as does all matter). Tis energy/frequency/vibration.

I would call the polarities in the human body electric fluid / magnetic fluid polarities (because I'm a fan of Franz Bardon's anatomy)

The Head
The front part of the head is electric. The back of the head is magnetic. The right side of the head is magnetic. The left side of the head is electric. The inside of the head is electric.

The Eyes
The front part of the eyes and the back part (rearward) are neutral. The right side and the left side are electric. The inner part of the eye is magnetic.

and he goes on with the rest of the body. This found in his Initiation into Hermetics.

and to 'explain' gays and lesbians? haha I'd rather them enjoy living life without prejudice than try to explain their existence.

solomon levi
04-05-2013, 11:06 PM
alchemy teaches us that these things are relative. life also taught me that.
anyone can formulate any question as a challenge or "proof" but it is just relative, not proof
of anything except relativity imo.
we don't have to explain gays and lesbians, or explain anything. explaining is not god's command...
it belongs to the mind/ego. that doesn't mean it's bad. it means it's relative again. explaining gays
and lesbians may be important to some egos. to me, expanations are sometimes helpful in navigating
this social world and acquiring stability. of course that is relative to instability and other worlds.

this is a silly argument imo.

Glenerson said: "a question.
if you say spirit=matter, youre implying that the male body has a corresponding male spirit and the female has the corresponding female spirit.
for matter is condensed spirit"

For me, wrong, no... I am not implying that. Your "left brain", as one called it, has projected its binariness onto something singular.
It is only relatively male and female. Matter/earth is relatively female as it receives the influence of the "less material".
Matter could be a masculine force if you allow it to determine your reality. It's all relative, it's all point of view/perspective/perception.

The only way Glenerson will understand this view is if he changes his perspective from dualism. Otherwise, saying spirit = matter
and speaking of oneness just seems like words to him.
A person in Oneness doesn't ask these questions, doesn't make comparisons, doesn't look for explanations...
Oneness is Pleroma/Fullness... it saturates you so completely that there is no room for thinking or for "the word".
But even this "word"/dualism is explained for those who hear...

"In the beginning was the word
And the word was with God and the word was God"

How can it be God and be with God?
This is an old argument... is God immanent or transcendent?
Some say God is both. No one has given the definitive answer for everyone, obviously,
and it's not going to happen here at alchemy forums either. :)

But for me, John understood that God is both by saying the word was God and the word was with God.
But what John says doesn't matter. It's what each individual can REALise for themselves that matters (becomes "material", "real").

solomon levi
04-08-2013, 12:44 AM
i must say i misunderstood your post Glenerson. upon re-reading i think i see what you mean. but spirit is not yet male or female. i would have used the word 'soul', not spirit. when one condenses asexual spirit/mercury (potential) it becomes soul/sulphur before body/salt. it is soulpher that carries distinctive characteristics like color, odor, planetary signature, etc. soul can be androgynous towards the spirit side and sexed towards the matter side. in practical lab alchemy there is a fixed and volatile sulphur extracted.
in most humans, and in homosexuals, it is not their first incarnation. when people reincarnate, they don't go all the way 'back' to spirit... that's the 'problem' buddhism seeks to resolve... or other teachings which say go to the Void, not the light. so reincarnated people carry baggage, and this influences their sex.
humans weren't always equipped with genitalia. not all bodies are male or female... we can see this in some animal life and insect life today... continued

solomon levi
04-08-2013, 12:58 AM
anyway, i can't speak for all cases of homosexuality, but in many it is a conscious decision of a sexed soul to manifest as the opposite gender. if you lived as a woman in a society where men had all the power, and you want to experience power, then you may choose to reincarnate as a man, even though your soul is fem dominant. there are many reasons and scenarios.
the 'golden chain of Homer', the smear, is still unbroken. this chain appears as spirit at one end and matter at the other, but it is one chain. so it is simply perspective. as the chain, you say 'I am one chain'. as an outside observer of the chain, we only call the material part 'chain', the part that vibrates within range of our senses.
if this chain could actually be broken, matter would not exist. since matter exists, it is reasonable to assume the chain is unbroken. this unbrokenness is all i mean when i say spirit and matter are one thing. sure, they have different qualities. which do you emphasise, difference or similarity? both valid.

solomon levi
04-08-2013, 01:15 AM
spirituality usually emphasises sameness/oneness and materialism usually emphasises differences. so just as sexed souls can appear in opposite sexed bodies, people can emphasise difference and call it spirituality. :) it happens.

solomon levi
04-08-2013, 10:08 AM
the question i'd like answered is can we call a wolf in sheep's clothing a transvestite? :D

04-08-2013, 04:58 PM
certainly not, otherwise you will go into the stone

but some will call it antimony in the fleece & some will say that it does not matter & that all is the same one