View Full Version : productive debates

solomon levi
04-16-2013, 07:47 AM
just wanted to point out something in lieu of the recent banning, which had multiple reasons... this thread is just discussing one thing i observed and hope we learn from. there have been debates on the forum in the past which people have enjoyed, appreciated... those debates are usually respectful, intelligent, arguing the point not the person... in a word, i think they are productive.
what isn't enjoyed much is unproductive arguing, people not listening and respecting, ignoring explanations, definitions, context... arguing the person, claiming to know others and speak for them...
this is a forum, intended that each speak for oneself. why be here and not hear? you don't have to agree. but at least hear clearly and comprehend what you are rejecting. what you think someone is saying may not be what they wish you to hear. please don't come looking for enemies.

solomon levi
04-16-2013, 08:14 AM
something i learned a while ago, about respect and listening, is that people will tell me when i hear them correctly. it isn't for me to say/decide that i hear them. they will tell me.
I know that I know when others hear me. I don't like it when they decide they have heard/understood me and i know they haven't. I will know and tell you when you hear/align with my perspective. I will see myself reflected in you and say 'yeah, that's it!'
It's silly for you to say 'this is what you mean' and i read it and it's not what i mean. everyone knows what they mean. respect is giving them the chance to tell you, like you would like given to you.
not a rule, but i try to live by it. what good is it being in the world and not letting others tell you who they are? we can listen to our own voice/thoughts any time... how often do we truly hear others? to me, i am not alive without that... i might as well be asleep dreaming in my head if i'm not going to try to hear others as they wish to be heard. only then is it sharing.

04-16-2013, 09:51 PM
All the arguments you mentioned Solomon makes sense, and one should most definitely adhere to these principles.

I sort of hesitated whether to comment on this Thread because I would greatly be saddened if my post would be taken the wrong direction; I mean no disrespect towards anyone. You see, I sometimes see that some posts by some members are actually more about their mental health issues than the topic-at-hand. So when I see such cases, I tend to just allow it as it may for the argument itself (viz., the topic itself) is long lost and pointless at that stage. And the more one presses at any given argument, the more that person tends to react, be triggered, lost in their wounding and pain.

Just an observation.

solomon levi
04-17-2013, 10:06 AM
yes, i too think that is a necessary branch/facet of alchemy. when i arrived here 3(?) years ago i suggested a sub forum called 'tartaros' where we could battle out these issues between forum members. :)
"Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek: Τάρταρος, from τάρταρον "tartar encrusting the sides of casks"), is the deep abyss in ancient Greek mythology that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked."

at heart each of us moderators are anti rules, control, govt, censorship, etc. but we agree that some guidelines must be enforced to keep an admirable quality associated with Alchemy Forums. i think we decided enough places like that (battlegrounds) are already available on the web and 'real life'.
in my 'real life' i make it a priority to consider whatever is happening as 'God's will' and 'what i need to be experiencing'... that the universe/life is never wrong or unjust... to me 'what is' is God's eye of providence - that which is provided...

solomon levi
04-17-2013, 10:11 AM
provide, pro vide - to forsee, look ahead... prudens (wisdom, prudence) is said to be a contraction of providens.
also pro vida/vita, pro life... life being that which is happening now. :)

04-17-2013, 03:23 PM
. . . sub forum called . . . Tartarus . . . .

That's a neat idea. There would surely be fireworks involved!

04-18-2013, 04:12 AM
I guess I'm kind of for the Tartarus idea. Not sure how that would work exactly, maybe some wouldn't read it.

I think a great majority of this just starts from a lack of respect. It's amazing how much people assume about others over the internet who they know nothing about. If people would just respect everyone as another human first without any preconceived notions or prejudices I think everyone would get along a lot better. Of course I do believe the one who was most recently banned did expect a bit too much respect for his views.

Anyone who makes a little progress even just a bit close to real knowledge or has some alchemy success usually tends to develop some elitism. I'm guilty of it myself but I always manage to get a grip and not go off the deep end. It's all just a matter of self control and understanding the big picture. Down to earth is the way to be because we're all on it. I try to be nice to others which works great a lot of times and when it doesn't I just try to let it go.

I'm not saying we're all equal, since we are not. I'm just saying often enough people overlook the best of things and sometimes they miss people too.

solomon levi
04-18-2013, 04:54 AM
Communication is difficult because it is ruled by mercury and is fluid, not fixed.
We try to give fixed ideas and definitions, but it's not in their nature.
I try to be clear but I can't help contradicting myself because I'm not JUST this one definition/aspect/facet...
especially as I endeavor towards allness.
Hermes/mercury is connected to deceit and communication, because words trick us... it isn't that the
person is necessarily being tricky or deceitful or contradictary...
I say this because when it isn't seen, we blame people for a lot of things that are inherent in the system,
inherent in the contradictory/paradoxical nature of reality, inherent in language and communication. If you know that,
communication becomes an art, not a battle... and respect prevails.
An artist adapts, uses one's ingenuity:
"Separabis terram ab igne, subtile ab spisso, suaviter, magno cum ingenio." - latin Emerald Tablet

04-18-2013, 06:58 PM
. . . sub forum called . . . Tartarus . . . .

That's a neat idea. There would surely be fireworks involved!

I feel that this is a very good idea, and goes along the lines of a 'boxing ring' sub-forum that I recently suggested to Androgynus. Being that alchemy is related to spiritual concepts I feel that arguments based on religious beliefs are pretty much unavoidable. It should be a given that these type of debates could become very heated and disruptive toward the original topic of the threads in which they exist. I would think that the main reason for banning would be to prevent the disruption of the intended topics of threads and the forum community. In any community there will inevitable be fights and disputes. The question is how do we deal with those involved in the conflict. Rather than banning/exiling members, we could give them a place to battle/flame one another, until either the flame dies down or they are able to come to a reconciliation. When posts become heated, rather than deleting them, we could just move them to the dispute section of the forum. In this way the constructive sections of the forum are not cluttered with arguments and disagreements, and at the same time we don't have to worry about losing the contributions of our members who have temperately lost their cool due to a dispute. If the members insist on carrying their flame wars from the underworld/tartarus to the surface, then they could be warned to keep it in the sub-forum. If the warning fails, then exiling may be the only option left.

Maybe we could have a vote as a community to the concept of a 'Tartarus' sub-forum and if it would be beneficial or detrimental to our group? ...If a 'tartarus' was created and if for some reason the sub-forum caused more harm then good, it could always be removed later.